00:19:40 <Sgep> Bye all
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03:10:11 <Wildhalcyon> grim: There IS an online integer sequence database. You'll commonly (if you look at mathematical sequences often) find references to "Sloane's Sequence" with a label A followed by a number.
03:10:16 <Wildhalcyon> check out: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/
03:12:39 <Wildhalcyon> The sequence for "Word structures of length n using an n-ary alphabet" is given by the Bell number sequence http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?Anum=A000110
03:13:22 <Wildhalcyon> It's also the number of possible rhyming schemes for an n-line poem
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03:31:07 <Wildhalcyon> Check out the wiki entry on the sequence database: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Line_Encyclopedia_of_Integer_Sequences
03:31:19 <Wildhalcyon> The database provides some good sequences that could be generated as proof-of-concept in esolangs too
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03:37:02 <kipple> that's a nice link :)
03:37:08 <Wildhalcyon> Which link?
03:37:15 <kipple> the sequence database
03:37:35 <Wildhalcyon> I have a friend who's a pirate. I showed him that keyboard - he complained that it didn't look very ergonomic, but the easy-to-find pirate-keys were a big plus
03:37:45 <Wildhalcyon> Yeah, its one of those "glad the internet is around for this" type things
03:38:06 <kipple> yes, the pirate keyboard could be designed better
03:38:19 <kipple> the keys are too small and too close to each other for people with hooks
03:39:57 <Wildhalcyon> Good point!
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04:14:00 * Wildhalcyon is very distracted with the integer sequence database right now, learning about Glypho sequences
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04:33:08 <Sgep> Glypho?
04:34:53 <Wildhalcyon> my esolang
04:35:15 <Wildhalcyon> no working implementation yet (the one posted on the wiki is incorrect - which is my fault, not Jix's)
04:36:45 <Arrogant> Which wiki is this
04:37:30 <Wildhalcyon> the esolang wiki
04:37:39 <Wildhalcyon> as far as I know, there's nothing posted at wikipedia
04:40:15 <kipple> Arrogant: the number one esoteric resource: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
04:40:38 <Arrogant> Awesome.
04:40:55 <Arrogant> And I'm free to post my WIP?
04:41:02 <kipple> WIP?
04:41:10 <Arrogant> Work in progress
04:42:23 <kipple> there has been some debate on the works in progress. see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Works_in_progress
04:43:10 <kipple> I'd say please do!
04:43:45 <Wildhalcyon> Im down with it too - in fact, I have a WIP that I posted there (which is not Glypho, although until I get an implementation, Glypho should be viewed as a WIP too... but the syntax is finalized finally!!!)
04:44:31 <Arrogant> My specification is done and there's a complete Python implementation
04:44:57 <kipple> well, then don't post it under Works in progress. put it in the proper language list!
04:44:59 <Arrogant> I'm just working on a "standard library"
04:45:19 <Arrogant> I suppose I should
04:45:25 <kipple> yes
04:45:28 <Arrogant> I should come up with a better name though
04:45:31 <Arrogant> It was originally Brainfunk
04:45:37 <Arrogant> Because it was Brainfuck with functions
04:45:38 <kipple> hehe
04:45:40 <Arrogant> But now it's so much more
04:45:53 <kipple> what else have you added?
04:45:55 <Arrogant> It's got scopes
04:46:02 <Arrogant> For independent memory arrays/pointers
04:46:12 <Arrogant> As well as operators for walking up and down a scope tree
04:46:16 <Arrogant> And a stack.
04:48:55 <kipple> gotta get some sleep. night all 
04:49:01 <Arrogant> I think it's somewhat respectable
04:49:02 <Arrogant> Night kipple
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04:50:20 <Wildhalcyon> I had trouble coming up with a good language name myself
04:52:05 <Arrogant> Here's my standard lib so far
04:52:06 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368704
04:54:44 <Wildhalcyon> ascii.bf is just the ascii code for the characters then?
04:54:48 <Arrogant> Right.
04:54:51 <Wildhalcyon> got it
04:54:54 <Arrogant> Pushes characters onto the stack.
04:55:22 <Wildhalcyon> whats the 'n' at the beginning?
04:55:24 <Arrogant> {H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print}
04:55:39 <Arrogant> (n instructions) is the new scope operator
04:55:53 <Arrogant> Creates a new scope before executing those instructions
04:55:58 <Wildhalcyon> scope?
04:56:07 <Arrogant> Independent memory array and pointer
04:56:42 <Arrogant> Scopes have a parent scope too
04:56:45 <Arrogant> Which is the calling scope.
04:56:54 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, so every time you write (n stuff n' junk) you get a new memory array.. err.. stack?
04:57:06 <Arrogant> So you can use (u code) for executing in the parent scope
04:57:07 <Arrogant> No
04:57:11 <Arrogant> Just memory array
04:57:12 <Arrogant> It has both
04:57:19 <Wildhalcyon> Do you have a spec I can look at?
04:57:20 <Arrogant> I need to write a spec
04:57:23 <Wildhalcyon> to make sense of this? lol
04:57:32 <Arrogant> The language changes wildly
04:57:46 <Arrogant> I came up with new ideas when I was writing it
04:57:52 <Wildhalcyon> I understand - I went from having a 'skip' function to bf-like brackets last night, it was MADNESS!
04:59:01 <Wildhalcyon> I've thought up a pretty nice bf-style stack-based language while I was doing it. I'll probably post a link to it on the glypho webpage (when I make it), but I doubt I'll make an esolang wiki article on it.
04:59:35 <Arrogant> Hehe.
04:59:41 <Arrogant> Alright, I'll write up a spec now.
05:00:19 <Wildhalcyon> It SHOULD be TC too, but Im not sure
05:00:35 <Arrogant> Mine's TC because Brainfuck is.
05:00:40 <Arrogant> And it's a superset.
05:00:43 <Wildhalcyon> Yeah, I want to see a spec on yours.
05:00:57 <Wildhalcyon> Supersets are nice and convenient.
05:02:40 * Arrogant nods
05:05:51 <Arrogant> I'll name my language Synesthesia
05:06:53 <Wildhalcyon> a little long, but quirky so you get bonus points
05:07:35 <Arrogant> Synesthesia is a psychological condition, look it up on Wikipedia, it's pretty awesome.
05:08:29 <Wildhalcyon> Ah, yes, that one. I read about it in discover once.. a man described a piano as sounding "blue".
05:09:10 <Wildhalcyon> I hate that psychological condition, which sounds harsh, but its out of jealousy - I'll never understand what color things sound like.
05:09:20 <Arrogant> Exactly.
05:09:33 <Arrogant> Of course, I'm not jealous of people who see colors as pain.
05:11:01 <Wildhalcyon> Good point. Maybe I should count my blessings
05:11:16 <Wildhalcyon> "YELLOW! OWWW!! YELLOW!!!"...
05:26:25 <Arrogant> I think that's it.
05:27:06 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728 Feel free to ask questions if it's not clear
05:27:59 <Wildhalcyon> Ah, you have integer output, eh?
05:28:13 <Arrogant> I needed it for sanity
05:28:20 <Wildhalcyon> when pushing the current value onto the stack, does it remove that value?
05:28:23 <Arrogant> No
05:28:40 <Arrogant> It's been decided between me and my partner in esotericity that that would be a total bitch.
05:28:58 <Arrogant> You'd have to do |%* in order to keep a value in that case
05:29:06 <Wildhalcyon> so n is local, u is used for.. cheap parameter passing?... and t is global?
05:29:07 <Arrogant> And it seems unneccesary.
05:29:21 <Arrogant> u is used for accessing data in the parent scope
05:29:27 <Arrogant> Something you don't do in normal languages
05:29:29 <Arrogant> t is global yes
05:29:51 <Arrogant> I used u in scopeops
05:29:53 <Wildhalcyon> Well, in Glypho you have to do 11-+ in order to put 0 on the top of the stack
05:30:19 <Wildhalcyon> sometimes esotericity provides curious instruction requirements
05:31:15 <Arrogant> It's difficult enough as it is :D
05:31:18 <Arrogant> {reverse:(n>(n?[(u*>)?])<[<]>[|>])}
05:31:36 <Arrogant> inverts the stack
05:31:48 <Arrogant> Scope hacking is fun though.
05:32:10 <Wildhalcyon> yes, but after that I just have to call (reverse) right?
05:32:15 <Arrogant> Rigt
05:32:16 <Arrogant> Right
05:32:19 <Arrogant> {reverse}
05:34:41 <Wildhalcyon> here's the ouroboros spec: www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/ouroboros.txt
05:34:42 <Arrogant> The most straightforward "Hello, world!" making use of the stdlib is (iascii)(istackops){H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print}
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05:35:14 <Wildhalcyon> Its essentially similar to Glypho, except using increment and decrement - easier to prove TC in, perhaps, but Glypho can implement increment and decrement similarly
05:35:31 <Wildhalcyon> Yeah, those ascii.bf stdlib functions are nice
05:36:45 <Arrogant> I'm thinking that the language is just too complex for it's own good
05:37:04 <Arrogant> Also, I'd advise against using a letter for an instruction if you're allowing Brainfuck style comments
05:38:47 <Arrogant> Ouroborus is so much more elegant than mine
05:39:21 <Wildhalcyon> Well, part of that, I think, is that your language gets bogged down by... higher level stuff (like scope). High-level == bad
05:39:42 <Arrogant> Subroutines would be rather useless without it
05:40:04 <Arrogant> I think that the way that the scopes are implemented makes them fairly disgusting to use
05:40:17 <Arrogant> But then
05:40:28 <Arrogant> There's scopes AND subroutines AND stack AND array AND etc
05:41:04 <Wildhalcyon> Well, the stack + array concept isn't bad necessarily. Very similar to real machines that have a stack and registers and memory
05:42:02 <Arrogant> All of it put together makes it far too easy to do things
05:42:25 <Arrogant> (imath),|,|{add}*!
05:42:43 <Arrogant> Takes two characters from input and outputs the sum of their codes.
05:43:31 <Arrogant> Obviously this is much harder to do in other things
05:43:45 <Wildhalcyon> like bf?
05:44:02 <Arrogant> Right.
05:44:20 <Wildhalcyon> Not all esolangs make it HARD to do things
05:44:28 <Arrogant> True.
05:44:32 <Arrogant> But BF does.
05:44:38 <Arrogant> And mine's a derivative of it
05:45:00 <Arrogant> I suppose that it was my intention to not make it hard to do things
05:45:05 <Wildhalcyon> the problem with your language though, is that its too easy to do things without ever touching the underlying code. With enough subroutines you could write code in your language that looked entirely readable
05:46:23 <Arrogant> I could do away with subroutines and make it entirely difficult again.
05:47:12 <Arrogant> The source code for the thing is 400 lines long too
05:47:17 <Wildhalcyon> Well, its not necessarily BAD either though...
05:47:34 * Arrogant shrugs
05:47:35 <Arrogant> I dunno.
05:48:24 <Wildhalcyon> I think a better system might be in-line definition of subroutines with a fixed symbol set (probably all capital &/| lowercase letters)
05:48:48 <Arrogant> Nah.
05:48:52 <Arrogant> I think I'll leave it as it is.
05:49:03 <Wildhalcyon> alrighty, it really is your call after all
05:49:08 <Arrogant> I won't bother posting it on the wiki I don't think though
05:49:17 <Arrogant> Just a practice run.
05:49:24 <Wildhalcyon> Sounds good
05:49:54 <Arrogant> First however I will write a Brainfuck interpreter in it.
05:50:16 <Wildhalcyon> should be easy enough :-)
05:50:19 <Arrogant> Yep.
05:50:55 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, I wanted to get to bed an hour ago.. so I better get to bed now
05:51:00 <Arrogant> Hehe. Night.
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06:04:33 <calamari> hi
06:09:46 <Arrogant> Hey calamari.
06:09:58 <calamari> hi Arrogant
06:18:57 <Arrogant> Night.
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07:47:49 <Wildhalcyon> Looks like last year, someone wrote a master's thesis level paper on the very same string-structures that compose glypho.
07:48:19 <Wildhalcyon> Yet, here I am, composing Glypho for fun - even coming up with the ideas within it arbitrarily - in order to get AWAY from the research leading to my master's thesis.
07:55:36 <Wildhalcyon> </rant>
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14:41:35 <jix> moin
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17:18:38 <jix> np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ]
17:21:20 <kipple> you seem to really like that song :)
17:21:36 <jix> hehe yes
17:22:13 <jix> but i like other songs too
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20:20:46 <nooga> hi
20:20:57 <nooga> who knows javascript well?
20:21:20 * jix doesn't
20:22:51 <nooga> http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/magnets.php << it works under IE, but not under mozillas
20:23:13 <jix> and under khtmls?
20:23:17 <nooga> i can't manage  myself to make it 100% compliant
20:23:21 <nooga> don't know
20:23:27 <jix> doesn't
20:23:38 <jix> do you want drag and drop?
20:23:52 <nooga> yes
20:24:06 <nooga> but
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20:24:11 <jix> you have to write a version for every browser
20:24:14 <jix> because none is compliant
20:24:29 <nooga> ahm
20:24:37 <nooga> and that's my problem
20:24:42 <nooga> i don't know javascript
20:24:58 * Wildhalcyon is noncompliant
20:27:34 <jix> nooga: maybe http://script.aculo.us/ helps
20:29:06 <nooga> thx
20:31:32 <nooga> hah
20:32:32 <nooga> hm
20:32:35 <nooga> i guess
20:33:15 <nooga> nvm
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20:47:36 <kipple> wildhalcyon: about Glypho. What gets pushed on EOF?
21:45:41 <Wildhalcyon> huh?
21:45:52 <kipple> when you read from input
21:45:57 <kipple> and reach EOF
21:46:11 <Wildhalcyon> depends on your system I suppose.
21:46:26 <kipple> so it's up to the interpreter?
21:46:30 <Wildhalcyon> for my cat program, it waits for 0
21:46:39 <Wildhalcyon> pretty much kipple
21:46:53 <kipple> then you get the same problem as brainfuck
21:47:04 <kipple> that programs that depend on input are not portable
21:47:32 <Wildhalcyon> thats true of almost all languages to a varying degree
21:47:52 <kipple> no. you can just say that on EOF a 0 (or -1) is pushed
21:48:32 <Wildhalcyon> but even the idea of "eof" is outside of the confines of the language
21:50:39 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose I could say that, but it goes against my thinking for the language
21:50:48 <kipple> ok
21:51:33 <kipple> any news on a working interpreter?
21:52:03 <Wildhalcyon> Not this week. I'm busy with my "real" research
21:52:19 <kipple> I have been thinking about a brainfuck to glypho compiler, but it's a bit hard to test without an interpreter :)
21:53:35 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose that's true.. hmm
21:53:58 <kipple> probably wont have time to finish it this week anyway
21:54:09 <Wildhalcyon> I'll try to get one asap. It'll probably be written in C
21:55:14 <kipple> actually it'll probably be brainfuck to glypho shorthand
21:56:25 <Wildhalcyon> Well, the interpreter is going to be able to accept both shorthand and full-glypho
21:56:36 <kipple> that's nice
21:57:05 <kipple> could I request a debugging feature to display the contents of the stack as well? :)
21:57:20 <Wildhalcyon> I also want to write a quick shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler
21:57:28 <kipple> that should be easy
21:57:49 <Wildhalcyon> You could, I'll check with the project management team about potentially including it
21:58:50 <Wildhalcyon> Well, in order for me to consider the shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler valid, it has to be able to take a set of symbols and randomly use them in the full glypho
22:00:00 <Wildhalcyon> its still not hard though, but it won't just encode them as abcd
22:00:42 <kipple> hehe. a really cool feature would be to have the resulting code appear as proper english :)
22:03:30 <Wildhalcyon> I thought about that, but it's pretty difficult for instructions like aaab and abbb
22:03:34 <kipple> yes
22:03:46 <kipple> whitespace could be the key
22:07:19 <Wildhalcyon> whitespace... hmmm
22:07:25 <Wildhalcyon> your answer intrigues me
22:08:08 <Wildhalcyon> I shall dwell on it further. For now, I am once again off to work. You have given me much to think about while I slave over my drudgery...
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