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00:05:02 <calamari> hi
00:05:10 <kipple_> hello
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01:10:45 <{^Raven^}> hey peeps
01:12:24 <kipple_> you callin' me a peep?
01:12:40 <{^Raven^}> one of em, yup
01:12:54 <kipple_> :)
01:13:24 <{^Raven^}> i've been teaching someone about UTMs today :)
01:13:32 <kipple_> well, according to the esolang wiki I belong in [[category:people]] so I guess I am
01:14:15 <{^Raven^}> he's read lots of turing books without a single clear explanation of what a turing machine is or does
01:14:52 <{^Raven^}> i'm gonna get him started with BF
01:15:06 <kipple_> hehe. the more brainfuckers the merrier
01:15:31 <{^Raven^}> i reckon that it is an excellent introduction to turing machines
01:15:40 <kipple_> perhaps
01:16:13 <{^Raven^}> he was expecting something where the program was on the tape and there was no place for data
01:16:20 <kipple_> I'm not too familiar with turing machines, but aren't they supposed to work with different "states"?
01:19:25 <{^Raven^}> yeah, but his book examples were extremely non-trivial
01:20:30 <kipple_> I've only dealt with them in the introductory computer science class at the uni some 8 years ago, so I don't remember too much
01:21:51 <{^Raven^}> it's been a few years myself
01:22:09 <{^Raven^}> i find that the dormal definitions are too abstract and depend entirely of the POV of the author
01:22:14 <{^Raven^}> *formal
01:24:24 <{^Raven^}> but you have to admit that Turing developed an esolang as far back as 1936 
01:24:51 <kipple_> hehe
01:25:28 <kipple_> all programming languages were esoteric back then
01:25:38 <{^Raven^}> he was the dude who said something along the lines of - why build a specific machine for each task, it would be better to build a programmable machine that can peform any task
01:26:23 <{^Raven^}> and then designed and helped to build one (the first programmable computer ;)
01:29:38 <{^Raven^}> but i digress, another brainfucker is hopefully on his way
01:30:35 <{^Raven^}> do you think that everyone thinks that we are insane for using esolangs?
01:30:46 <{^Raven^}> as in the general populace
01:30:54 <kipple_> does anybody know about it at all?
01:31:05 <kipple_> (if they knew they probably would, though)
01:31:33 <{^Raven^}> quite a few people have encountered it through the game I wrote in BFBASIC
01:31:44 <{^Raven^}> who have never heard of esolangs
01:32:02 <kipple_> hmm. I estimate 99.99% of the pop
01:32:08 <{^Raven^}> probably there are other esotools that have gone mainstream
01:32:42 <kipple_> LISP was kind of an esolang when it was made...
01:33:03 <{^Raven^}> definately - have you ever seen x86, that's just freaky
03:11:39 <calamari> x86 is fine ;)
03:12:11 <calamari> actually, I'm not sure why people don' like x86
03:12:27 <calamari> is it because of the memory segment/offset thing?
03:12:48 <calamari> because that takes all of 5 minutes to understand
03:16:34 <calamari> or is it because Intel got popular, and it's in style not to like the big guy
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17:45:33 <nooga> hi
18:06:09 <Aardwolf> hi
18:07:05 <nooga> i just updated SADOL's webpage and joined into the esolang ring
18:12:46 <nooga> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/
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18:39:18 <nooga> hi int-e
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21:28:20 -!- calamari has joined.
21:28:23 <calamari> hi
21:29:55 <kipple_> hey calamari: what's up with the EsoShell?
21:30:33 <kipple_> when I run it, there's a bunch of HTML code in the console
21:33:43 <calamari> kipple: I'll heck that out
21:33:48 <calamari> check too ;)
21:36:01 <calamari> wow, that's not particularly impressive, is it
21:36:41 <kipple_> btw, does anybody now if INTERCAL is turing complete?
21:36:47 <calamari> I think I remember what I was doing tho.. I was working on being able to save programs into a wiki page
21:40:00 <kipple_> so, have you dropped the project?
21:40:13 <kipple_> or is it just "on hold"?
21:40:19 <calamari> dropped? no
21:40:50 <kipple_> good.
21:40:51 <calamari> on hold
21:41:27 <calamari> I remember trying to make an AWT version and being frustrated by that
21:41:39 <int-e> kipple, intercal suffers from finite memory constraints ... 64k arrays with 64k words each.
21:41:49 <calamari> then I was totally outclassed by a javascript unix shell featured on /. :)
21:42:32 <kipple_> int-e: OK. wikipedia claims it is TC, but I'll guess I'll remove that category then
21:42:52 <kipple_> calamari: yeah, I remember that one :)
21:43:44 <calamari> kipple: it was most impressive.. even had threads and a ps command 
21:44:05 <kipple_> but did it have a bf-interpreter?
21:44:10 <calamari> nope!
21:44:19 <kipple_> then who cares! ;)
21:44:40 <calamari> okay, I've fixed the code.. uploading the jar (will take a minute)
21:45:30 <calamari> oh yeah.. no jar.  hehe
21:47:01 <int-e> hrm. intercal has multidimensional arrays? ok, it can access a lot more memory then (still finite for a given program though, so still not TC - although it allows for all practical computations to be done)
21:49:19 <calamari> ok, fixed and online
21:49:32 <calamari> you may need to close and reopen your browser for the cached copy to be released
21:50:52 <kipple_> yep. working again :)
21:50:58 <calamari> hmm.. seem to be having versioning confusions there.. I'll upload all class files again
21:54:41 <calamari> fixed :)
21:57:07 <calamari> one of the nifty things about EsoShell is that it loads new modules on demand, rather that loading everything at once.  Only slow connections like mine benefit from it tho :)
21:57:32 <calamari> need modules for some other languages besides bf
21:58:31 <kipple_> yeah
21:58:53 <kipple_> that and a way to store files would make it awesome
21:59:28 <calamari> yeah.  graue gave the okay for storing the files in wiki.. I just need to code it
21:59:41 <kipple_> great
22:00:08 <kipple_> how do you handle multiple users?
22:00:43 <kipple_> will each user get his own storage space?
22:01:03 <calamari> kipple_: ahhh, it doesn't work exactly that way
22:01:40 <calamari> kipple_: think of it more like a ramdrive where you can save certain files to disk with a special command (or cp if I get fancy)
22:01:43 -!- kipple_ has changed nick to kipple.
22:02:23 <calamari> so if you wrote to a file and I wrote later I could overwrite your changes, just like in the normal wiki
22:02:30 <kipple> ah. ok
22:02:54 <kipple> and since it is stored in the wiki, you could always get back previous versions?
22:03:00 <calamari> right
22:03:16 <calamari> you could even write the program in the wiki if you wanted to
22:03:27 <kipple> that's cool
22:03:47 <kipple> so, will each "file" get a separate article, or will they be combined on one page?
22:03:52 <jix> wiki_mount -r revision/date/whatever /mount/point /wiki/url?
22:03:59 <calamari> hmm.. I'm not really doing anything now.. maybe I'll check it out again :)
22:04:15 <calamari> currently there is no concept of a directory.. lol
22:04:48 <jix> oh
22:05:05 <kipple> nice if there were at least one directory for each language
22:05:12 <jix> wiki_load /wiki/url target_file
22:05:19 <calamari> yeah.. I suppose the page name can count
22:05:21 <jix> wiki_store /wiki/url source_file
22:05:34 <calamari> iirc, graue was going to make an alternate namespace for EsoShell
22:05:55 <calamari> so I could store Befunge programs in EsoShell:Befunge
22:06:04 <jix> i just wrote a cool ruby program (term has to support ansi colors)
22:06:04 <jix> (0..22).each{|x|(0..79).each{|b|c=a=b/19.5-2.5;d=b=(x-11)/9.0;i=91;(a,b=a*a-b*
22:06:05 <jix> b+c,2*a*b+d)&&i-=1while(a*a+b*b<4)&&(i>0);$><<"\e[4#{u=i&7}m "};puts"\e[0m"}
22:06:27 <kipple> what does it do?
22:06:31 <calamari> ruby: command not found   hrm, need to fix that :)
22:06:50 <jix> kipple: it prints a nice picture on STDOUT
22:07:04 <jix> using ansi color codes
22:07:44 <calamari> eek, 1 meg
22:08:19 <calamari> actually, that's not bad at all for a programming language distribution
22:09:06 <kipple> the debian package is 1.5M archived
22:09:28 <calamari> maybe ubuntu's is different
22:09:51 <jix> the debian packag is missing the stdlibs but i don't use them it that program
22:09:52 <int-e> yet another mandelbrot set generator.
22:09:58 <kipple> ah, the mandelbrot 
22:10:10 <calamari> hi int-e
22:10:15 <jix> moin int-e 
22:10:27 <jix> yes i think
22:10:27 <jix> puts"\e[2J\e[0;11r";$>.sync=m="\e[C";c='/,-=<>*+.:&%$'.split'';k=[!1]*25
22:10:28 <jix> z=",rekcah ybuR rehtona tsuJ".reverse;while k.index(!1);i=-1;print"\eM"*
22:10:28 <jix> 7,"\e[H",k.map{|q|q ?" ":c[rand(13)]},"\e[6H",k.map{|q|u=z[i+=1,1];q ?u:
22:10:28 <jix> m},"\n",k.map{|q|q ?" ":m};k[rand(25)]=sleep 0.1;end;puts"\e[2J\e[r"+z#J
22:10:29 <jix> is nicer
22:10:32 <int-e> at least that's what the code looks like to me
22:10:44 <kipple> I just ran it, and you're correct
22:11:34 <kipple> well, now I've got ruby installed as well  :) the more the merrier
22:12:05 <calamari> kipple: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari
22:13:19 <kipple> that's how the shell stores programs?
22:13:33 <calamari> yeah.. of course that's a mockup
22:14:00 <jix> n8
22:14:11 <kipple> neight?
22:14:21 <kipple> ;)
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22:16:18 <kipple> well, when you get the shell up and running in the wiki I'd be happy to port my kipple interpreter
22:17:00 <calamari> cool
22:17:30 <kipple> however, the next version of Kipple is also "on hold", so no rush ;)
22:17:33 <calamari> I tried to make the api as similar to a standard java console app as possible
22:17:59 <calamari> so if you have an existing kipple interpreter in Java the conversion will be minimal
22:18:05 <kipple> I have
22:19:16 <kipple> will stuff like System.out work?
22:21:03 <calamari> yes, although it's simply out.print 
22:22:29 <calamari> All of my programs have been a single class.. haven't tested inner classes or that sort of thing.. maybe I should :)