00:00:52 <GregorR> Also, every real computer in the universe :P
00:01:34 <pgimeno> there's probably an equivalence between every MISC program and a SMETANA program... that's scary
00:04:49 <GregorR> I wonder what the most RISCy non-esoteric ASM is.
00:06:44 <pgimeno> there's a (half-esoteric) assembly language which has only MOV
00:06:52 <int-e> The Transputer instruction set was comprised of 8-bit instructions broken into two nibbles. The "upper" nibble contained the instruction code, making it truly RISC with only 16 basic instructions.
00:07:02 <int-e> Transputers are a good guess, I think.
00:07:04 <pgimeno> just some registers do special operations when MOVed
00:07:34 <pgimeno> it's the one used in the Wireworld computer
00:08:01 <GregorR> I think that would qualify as fully esoteric, pgimeno :)
00:09:19 <int-e> well, it has a ciscish instruction for less common operations, so I'm not sure if it really qualifies. but it's neat.
00:09:28 <int-e> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer#Instruction_set
00:12:36 <calamari> low power, static design, and instruction set that I already know :)
00:24:36 <jix> 80c88 is x86?
00:24:49 <jix> 8088 was 8086 with 8bit data bus?
00:25:02 <jix> and 80c88 is a variant of 8088?
00:29:02 <jix> <calamari> Intersil 80c88 looks good << for what?
00:29:24 <calamari> just messing around... :) I've always wanted to build a portable system
00:29:48 <calamari> the problem with most of them is that you have to constantly be charging them
00:30:38 <jix> i'd suggest using the arm7tdmi (gba and ipod uses them both have ok charging time)
00:31:08 <jix> it is powerful and easy to program
00:31:36 <jix> it has 2 instruction sets.. one for speed and another one for slow ram and small code size
00:31:45 <jix> gcc supports it
00:32:15 <jix> int-e: yes
00:32:35 <jix> gcc supports arm and thumb instruction sets
00:32:56 <jix> i'm working on my 1802 assembler
00:33:10 <jix> it uses ruby files for assembly code
00:33:28 <jix> and some dirty hacks that allow writing like normal assembler code
00:34:46 <calamari> eew.. why would I want to use gcc to write programs for an embedded device? :)
00:35:09 <jix> calamari: because sometimes assembler isn't the best choice
00:35:21 <jix> i used gcc for gba programming too
00:36:16 <jix> and you can use gas for assembling
00:36:36 <jix> calamari: hah?!
00:37:05 <jix> don't know nasm
00:37:31 <calamari> it uses intel syntax instead of that horrible at&t
00:38:33 <jix> the arm asm syntax from gas was ok
00:39:00 <jix> never used gas for anything else than ppc and arm
00:40:12 <pgimeno> at&t is delightfully terrible
00:40:12 <jix> imo x86 asm is always ugly
00:40:29 <pgimeno> you'd probably like it despite of not liking x86, jix
00:41:16 <pgimeno> it's like: SUB A,B means: SUBtract A from B
00:41:33 <jix> yes but the register names are..
00:41:44 <pgimeno> CMP A,B tests B in relation to A
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00:41:54 <jix> pgimeno: that's all ok
00:42:01 <jix> but i don't like the register names
00:42:16 <pgimeno> the registers are the same names, just preceded with %
00:42:29 <int-e> this is getting repetitive.
00:42:35 <jix> no they are like %aex... not like r0..r31
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00:42:56 <jix> pgimeno: i don't know x86 that much
00:43:01 <jix> i only saw some asm code
00:43:31 <int-e> pgimeno, I think you're mixing up gas and gdb
00:44:04 <jix> gdb is cool
00:44:24 <jix> it has objc support
00:44:31 <int-e> anyway jix would hate nasm, because the operands are swapped there. (well, not for x86 assembly coders but for everyone else)
00:44:47 <jix> int-e: swapped?!
00:45:07 <int-e> mov eax, 42 sets eax to 42. mov eax, ebx sets eax to the value of ebx.
00:46:17 <pgimeno> the worst part of free software is that everyone makes things different to each other and I end up mixing things
00:46:30 <pgimeno> I said I'd stop ranting, sorry
00:47:03 <int-e> pgimeno, intel did it differently from everyone else. the gas coders made a backend for gcc that made the compiler work as similar to the other backends as possible
00:47:36 <pgimeno> anyway the cmp bit still puzzles me
00:48:03 <int-e> that's why the $ and % signs are there, that's why the instructions got suffixes for the various sizes, that's why memory addresses are specified in such a strange way, and that's why the operands are swapped
00:48:09 <pgimeno> cmp eax,ebx / jle addr -> jumps if ebx <= eax
00:48:16 <int-e> cmp is sub but doesn't modify any operand
00:48:48 <int-e> and no it doesn't.
00:49:13 <jix> int-e: add r1,r2,r3 sets r1 to r2+r3 on ppc afaik
00:49:36 <jix> i just modified some ppc code did not much coding
00:50:04 <jix> there is no good ppc asm introduction
00:50:07 <int-e> pgimeno maybe you stumbled on a signed/unsigned issue? jle is for signed numbers
00:50:21 <int-e> jbe is for unsigned numbers
00:51:47 <int-e> cmp eax, ebx; jle jumps if eax<=ebx.
00:52:53 <pgimeno> so only sub eax,ebx; jle addr jumps if ebx <= eax
00:53:11 <int-e> that also jumps if eax<=ebx
00:53:26 <int-e> we *are* talking about intel (nasm) syntax, aren't we?
00:53:29 <pgimeno> er sorry, notation... cmp %eax, %ebx
00:53:53 <pgimeno> I personally like NASM syntax
00:53:53 <int-e> ok, then everything is reversed and some mnemonics are confusing
00:54:30 <int-e> but it's all clear once you realize that the operands were reversed.
00:54:48 <pgimeno> that's what I meant but I'm not in my best moment... sorry
00:55:01 <jix> ppc gas syntax: add r11, r7, r8 ; add the values in registers r7, r8 and store in r11
00:55:21 <jix> normal to me
00:56:49 <jix> arm uses the same syntax
00:57:25 <jix> its like r11=r7+r8
00:59:23 <jix> i like the bla instruction
00:59:34 <int-e> it's actually not strange at all, but you'll find assemblers where it means add r11 and r7 and store the result in r8
00:59:48 <jix> int-e: that's like 3code
00:59:53 <jix> and that's an esolang
01:00:11 <int-e> what's bla? branch if less or above makes no sense ;)
01:00:11 <jix> 3code uses 1+2=x
01:00:28 <jix> int-e: Branch and Link using Absolute adressing
01:00:52 <int-e> another alias for call/bsr. I forgot that one.
01:01:28 <jix> on ppc there is no call
01:01:35 <jix> and no bsr
01:05:30 <jix> int-e: there is no operand order problems for the 1802
01:05:37 <jix> there is no instruction with more than 1 operand
01:05:56 <int-e> load-store architecture, eh.
01:06:27 <jix> the add instruction has no operands
01:07:04 <jix> you use SEX to specify the operand and add adds it to the accumulator
01:07:25 <jix> sex r1|add adds r1 to D
01:08:16 <jix> lament: did you know the Voyager Satellite has SEX?
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01:43:52 <jix> my assembler code works
01:44:07 <jix> Ru1802Asm.new("endless!;br endless").hex_assemble #=> "30 00\n"
01:44:30 <jix> labels are done using name! or _name
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01:56:10 <WildHalcyon> Great. First day.. its going to be an easy class
01:57:48 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, Im taking a genetics course to fulfill a 2 credit life science req. Its b.s.
01:58:21 <Gs30ng> Genetic programming language would be fun
01:58:46 <heatsink> all programming languages are genetic programming languages
01:58:52 <heatsink> you keep tweaking them until they work
02:00:00 <WildHalcyon> Well... my esolang is specifically geared towards genetic programming
02:00:38 <heatsink> interesting. But isn't the genetic code generally a domain-specific lagnauge?
02:00:39 <calamari> I've messed around with gp.. lots to learn there
02:01:21 <WildHalcyon> Its not in genetic code (ATGC...), its just used to model cells which reproduce themselves
02:01:33 <WildHalcyon> well.. it will be... once an implementation is built
02:02:13 <WildHalcyon> During my genetics lecture, I was working on a rough design for the interpreter system
02:03:02 <calamari> so you *were* enjoying class....
02:03:52 <WildHalcyon> If you consider not paying attention to class participation, then yes
02:16:44 * pgimeno ponders about writing an intelligent design language
02:17:36 <pgimeno> er... how's it called... the alternative theory to evolution
02:19:14 <heatsink> all programming languages are intelligent design languages
02:19:35 <Gs30ng> are all the programming languages genetic?
02:20:28 <Gs30ng> well i didn't meant that way... :(
02:20:56 <WildHalcyon> Hmm... I think Befunge might qualify as intelligent design (YOU can change the code, making you the intelligent creator)
02:21:35 <Gs30ng> then Versert should be most intelligent design
02:21:58 <Gs30ng> TC with no stack, but only self-modifying
02:22:20 <Gs30ng> http://dev.tokigun.net/esolang/versert/index_en.php
02:24:39 <pgimeno> for ID reference see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design (yes, my proposal was ironic)
02:29:02 <Gs30ng> i don't think all the programming languages are genetic
02:29:52 <Gs30ng> the process of the embodiment of them could be genetic but the languages themselves are not all genetic
02:31:18 <Gs30ng> actually i think nongenetic ones are more than genetic ones
02:39:16 <WildHalcyon> sorry, back stupid webmail said I had an incorrect password...
02:44:31 <WildHalcyon> I disagree on the statement that Versert is 'genetic' since it cannot modify its own code, only according to the definition that I listed above
02:49:09 <WildHalcyon> Its a sweet language though. Good work Tokigun
02:55:35 <Gs30ng> but i don't even know how to write hello world code with it
03:02:29 <int-e> 8+*~.@ prints an @?
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03:06:29 <Gs30ng> oh, that's how voodoo graphic card work
03:06:38 <Gs30ng> recieve the data, magic, send the data
03:08:40 <WildHalcyon> I was really peeved at this stupid girl today.
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03:08:52 <puzzlet> Gs30ng, what, you've made another language again?
03:09:05 <WildHalcyon> I was trying to rescue an abandoned kitten, and she came lumbering in and scared it off
03:09:08 <Gs30ng> what are you talking about
03:09:34 <puzzlet> or were you talking about Udage
03:09:54 <Gs30ng> the college entrance exam is 98 days left
03:09:59 <WildHalcyon> I think we were talking about Versert? or something
03:10:06 <Gs30ng> i can't make any more useless language
03:11:08 <Gs30ng> although i strongly want to do so
03:12:16 <Gs30ng> ...ok it does mean that i don't have any time to stay here for just fun too
03:19:29 <GregorR> Ahhhhhhhhhh, MUD = sooo much work.
03:19:34 <GregorR> I don't even have the entire basic foundation in place.
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05:14:18 <WildHalcyon> Im thinking of having a development blog of my language. Anyone know of a good blog site for a project like this?
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05:42:47 <Gs30ng> WildHalcyon: you'd rather use tools like WordPress of MovableType on your own account
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05:59:45 <WildHalcyon> Whats the diff between WordPress & MovableType?
06:03:10 <WildHalcyon> I suppose I should probably name the language before I try implementing a blog on the design too
06:03:27 <WildHalcyon> y'know.. register the domain and everything. It's just a pain, to keep updating and reposting the spec on my school account
06:12:23 <Gs30ng> udage was formerly 'Switch'
06:13:15 <Gs30ng> i suffured something similar
06:14:05 <WildHalcyon> Well, Im less concerned with that, and more concerned with the fact that CRAWL was never meant to be the language name
06:14:21 <WildHalcyon> its just a random thought that popped into my idea right around this same time a few days ago
06:14:49 <Gs30ng> well, you can use something like 'codename'
06:16:23 <WildHalcyon> but if I go through the trouble of reserving a domain name, I should probably have the name pretty much settled...
06:16:54 <Gs30ng> well actually you don't have to worry about domain thing
06:17:21 <Gs30ng> you can just redirect the pages
06:18:16 <Gs30ng> unless you're going to use some kind of name that seems to be registered sooner or later
06:18:54 <Gs30ng> just think unique name
06:18:56 <WildHalcyon> With my luck, whatever I DO call it will probably end up being registered anyways
06:21:21 <Gs30ng> and according to my experience, although it takes too much to come up with any nice name, don't give up to think
06:22:06 <WildHalcyon> I'll work on it. My gf helped me name that stray kitten, she can probably help with the esolang too ;-)
06:23:21 <Gs30ng> she told me that i don't need NAND thing
06:24:02 <Gs30ng> conditional jump only is more simple
06:24:34 <Gs30ng> oh, i mean that, she told me about NAND thing in Udage
06:25:16 <WildHalcyon> Hmm.. I dont know if my gf can help in that capacity. She's not a programmer
06:26:27 <Gs30ng> my gf is not a programmer too. well, she majors in physics
06:29:12 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, but Im not certain my gf has the interest in the project that yours might have in Udage.
06:29:48 <WildHalcyon> She paid enough attention to spot the NAND thing; that's gotta count for something, right?
06:30:11 <Gs30ng> some geeks name the lang after their gf
06:30:44 <WildHalcyon> Nope. Not gonna do it. Besides, her name is taken (by a furniture store)
06:31:37 <Gs30ng> i heard that Debian Linux(not a lang, though) is named after the developer and his... err... gf? wife? anyway
06:32:56 <WildHalcyon> I don't think she would appreciate that either, honestly. I'll think of a nice organic-sounding name that will be great
06:34:55 <Gs30ng> unexpectedly my gf's nickname is penguin
06:35:14 <Gs30ng> i hardly can use that on computer related thing, you know
06:35:26 <WildHalcyon> Unexpectedly, thats not a bad lang name. Is she a linux fan?
06:37:02 <WildHalcyon> not that that really makes a ton of sense unless you're into mountain goats
06:37:21 <WildHalcyon> Its a himalayan sheep. Famous for leaping on cliffs
06:37:50 <Gs30ng> well, would you tell me about the lang spec briefly?
06:39:03 <WildHalcyon> Its a funge-varient that implements function spaces that have their own topology (they wrap independent of the rest of the program). The stack is composed of lists, rather than separate elements (like Joy)
06:39:24 <WildHalcyon> I'm using the program to model genetically evolving programs, similar to the software Avida and Tierra
06:41:57 <WildHalcyon> I'm removing redundant funge elements in order to reduce the instruction set as well...
06:42:18 <Gs30ng> is halcyon provision the bharals? :)
06:42:55 <WildHalcyon> not that I am aware of. I just googled bharal, and I think someone lied to me :-(
06:43:13 <WildHalcyon> Apparently, its the Himalayan Tahr which lives on the cliffsides and the males try to knock one another off the cliff
06:44:43 <WildHalcyon> If you want to see the provisional spec, go here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt
06:45:08 <WildHalcyon> It mostly deals with how the implementation details would effect the project, but hopefully you can see where I am going with this.
06:45:51 <Gs30ng> well, penguin halcyon bharal, all animals
06:46:14 <WildHalcyon> yeah, but penguin and bharal are common names, I believe that halcyon is the scientific name for the kingfisher, correct?
06:47:14 <Gs30ng> afaik, halcyon is a mythic kingfisher
06:48:40 <WildHalcyon> Maybe its halcyonia or something like that is the genus...
06:49:12 <Gs30ng> my dic says, in greek myth, halcyon nests on the sea
06:50:15 <Gs30ng> then the waves and winds are gone, and the bird lays its egg
06:51:44 <Gs30ng> i had no idea that the word can be used as adjective
06:51:49 <Gs30ng> like peaceful and tranquil
06:52:24 <WildHalcyon> Yep, its rare, but the most common idiomatic usage is
06:52:46 <Gs30ng> how would Halcyon programming language be?
06:53:36 <WildHalcyon> Im not crazy about it, because there are several companies named halcyon. It just doesn't ring of authenticity
06:54:54 <WildHalcyon> I'll think of something. Im gonna go to bed now. I just updated the specification abstract again, so maybe I can mull this over and add it on tomorrow
06:55:49 <WildHalcyon> Everyone interested, check out http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt to see the updated abstract!
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12:01:53 <jix> moin everyone
12:04:03 <Gs30ng> ...grouped everyone. lol
12:05:00 <Gs30ng> jix, how's your drow lang going?
12:05:12 <jix> hm it isn't really going
12:05:27 <jix> i have so many ideas.. can't realize them all...
12:05:38 <jix> but my 1802 assembler works
12:05:50 <Gs30ng> i feel something like that too
12:06:47 <Gs30ng> well, maybe a stupid advice but, just try to make them clear in your brain before you realize them
12:07:16 <jix> ever saw a complete assembler including power full macros and tools for LUT generation in 167 lines of code?
12:08:11 <Gs30ng> i don't actually know much about assemblers... well sounds funny for an esolang developer but whatever
12:08:30 <Gs30ng> but i'm interested. would you tell me about it briefly?
12:09:02 <jix> i was too lazy to implement a parser
12:09:13 <jix> and i thought.. why don't use ruby files as assembler files
12:09:36 <jix> in ruby if someone calls an undefined method the method method_missing is called
12:09:52 <jix> and i just check in method_missing if the called method is a register or a mnemonic...
12:10:16 <jix> and i get macros and LUT generation because one may write normal ruby code into the assembler file
12:10:54 <Gs30ng> that is really something.
12:11:42 <jix> and in the 1802 all instructions (2 exceptions) fit into 1 of 4 schemes
12:12:01 <jix> instruction with no operands.. only 1 byte
12:12:15 <jix> instructions with a register operand 4bit+4bit register 1 byte
12:12:33 <jix> and so on..
12:12:44 <jix> yes pretty cool for 1976
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12:27:44 <jix> grouped kipple
12:28:04 <kipple> grouped? what do you mean?
12:28:13 <jix> i always say moin
12:28:25 <jix> and Gs30ng told me that in his language moin means grouped
12:29:07 <kipple> I don't know what moin means either, but I'm guessing something like 'hello'
12:29:11 <jix> i've written an assembler in under 200loc
12:29:25 <jix> kipple: yes it's like hello (hello is hallo in german)
12:30:06 <jix> moin is short for mojen dach ( plattdeutsch (german dialect)) => guten tag (german) => good day (english)
13:28:05 <pgimeno> it must be funny to program for this... http://arrakis.ncsa.uiuc.edu/ps2/cluster.php
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14:56:49 <jix> my 1802 asm rules
14:57:28 <jix> 202 lines of assembler code.. no cli atm
14:57:44 <jix> 2 tla in a row cool
15:02:36 <jix> removed unused code.. 197 lines now
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19:42:45 <jix> GregorR: don't do that!
19:43:16 * GregorR types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types ..
19:44:50 <WildHalcyon> Anyone know why the pingpong page is so.. barren?
19:49:33 <WildHalcyon> Its got some nice syntax that befreak borrowed a bit of
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21:05:57 <jix> GregorR: how is your mud going
21:06:20 <GregorR> I did some cleanup yesterday, and almost have the math parser in place.
21:06:31 <jix> do you have a name?
21:06:36 <jix> i have a cool name
21:06:44 <jix> (for the mud)
21:06:53 <GregorR> For the MUD or the engine?
21:06:58 <int-e> infinite delusions
21:07:15 <GregorR> int-e is clearly not a MUDding fan :P
21:07:43 <GregorR> Or, int-e is a fan of delusions *shrugs*
21:08:12 <GregorR> jix: I'm just writing the engine, I'm no good at storyline design :P
21:08:15 <int-e> No. I've too many mud projects that were never finished.
21:08:46 <jix> GregorR: the engine should have a name
21:09:14 <GregorR> Of course, I just wanted to make sure I was clear on what was being named here ... OK, so what's your suggestion for the name for the engine?
21:09:56 <jix> Schlamm or another german word from http://dict.leo.org/se?lp=ende&p=/Mn4k.&search=mud
21:11:42 <GregorR> Schlamm sort of sounds like a pun on "MUD" and "SLAM!", which is an odd thing to pun against :P
21:14:02 <int-e> swamp ... (not quite)
21:14:33 <GregorR> They all seemed to have a number of not-quite-mud definitions.
21:16:28 <int-e> More Useless Dungeons.
21:29:23 <GregorR> IGEAMUAWCATFU = Immersive Game Engine Allowing Multiple Users from Around the World to Collectively Adventure Through a Fictional Universe
21:29:37 <GregorR> It really rolls of the tongue, too.
21:31:13 <calamari> add (Dungeon), then it can be -cat-food
21:31:52 <int-e> Fictional Universe Creator ... err ... never mind.
21:38:13 <jix> Fictional Universe Creator Kit?
22:05:15 <GregorR> Fictional Universe Creator Kit for Your Optimal Utilization of World-Heuristics Organization and Resource Engineering.
23:06:43 <GregorR> Unfortunately, programming a MUD at work is frowned upon :P
23:10:01 <jix> i'm still improving my assembler
23:10:21 <jix> it has macro local labels now
23:10:33 <jix> well you can specify label scopes anywhere
23:11:49 <GregorR> Hmm, I need to write a MISCas to go with my MISCvm (that I forgot to release yesterday >_>)
23:12:00 <GregorR> What does MISC ASM look like, anyway? :P
23:12:12 <jix> just numbers
23:12:14 <int-e> numbers, numbers, numbers_
23:12:16 <jix> no mnemonics
23:12:25 <jix> i love the word mnemonic...
23:12:32 <int-e> you could have one mnemonic, OP
23:13:06 <jix> Only Instruction Of Misc Instruction Set
23:15:25 <int-e> A: YCUAMOYCH A A A
23:15:36 <int-e> (you can use any mnemonic of your choice here)
23:16:00 <jix> allow any character combination as mnemonic
23:18:05 <int-e> and no, this is not meant to do anything.
23:18:34 <GregorR> Especially since there are four operands in MISC, not three :P
23:18:48 <calamari> jix: that old processor I used was the csc1805
23:19:12 <jix> calamari: 1805 is a enhanced 1802 afaik
23:21:15 <calamari> he 1804 had 64 bytes of memory, 2 KB ROM, on-chip oscillator and 8-bit timer. Instruction set of the 1804 was enhanced with 32 additional instructions, including subroutine call and return from the subroutine instructions. RCA 1805 (CDP1805) and 1806 (CDP1806) were similar to the 1804, but they didn't have on-chip ROM.
23:21:30 <calamari> that's why I had subroutines.. 1804 added 'em
23:22:26 <calamari> not having on-chip rom is correct.. we burned the rom separately
23:22:48 * calamari found an old work disk that he probably should have destroyed .. oh well :)
23:23:47 <jix> all the >1802 only instructions start with 68
23:24:35 <calamari> seems that there aren't very many popular cpu's out there..
23:26:36 <int-e> lots of mips derivatives
23:26:37 <jix> don't know more popular cpus
23:26:48 <jix> arm of course ^^
23:27:03 <int-e> sparc looked a lot like MIPS.
23:27:52 <jix> i've to add a cli to my assembler
23:27:54 <GregorR> Well, if you restrict it to desktop CPUs ...
23:28:04 <GregorR> Then you're down to about 3.
23:28:35 <jix> ppc disappears soon in desktop PCs
23:28:51 <jix> 6502 was in desktop PCs too
23:29:00 <GregorR> We are the borg. Your uniqueness will be absorbed into our own.
23:34:17 <int-e> we are the borg, we are unique?
23:44:42 <jix> i hate writing good cli:s
23:47:23 <jix> but gui apps make intensive use of the gui and the gui is more than a little wrapper for method calls
23:47:28 <jix> you write the gui with your app
23:47:46 <jix> i've done my asm and have no motivation for writing this stupid cli
23:48:14 <int-e> read from stdin, write to stdout
23:48:22 <jix> i have some options
23:48:25 <jix> like output format
23:48:35 <jix> output offset
23:48:51 <jix> and ruby has a good option parser