00:03:31 <GregorR> int-e: Quaa, where did that table come from?
00:06:31 <int-e> I created it from the data on the wiki page
00:06:40 <int-e> I'll automate that if there's any interest
00:07:15 <GregorR> RIght now there's about 0 interest in FYB, sooo *shrugs*
00:09:16 <lament> seems like a rather brainfucked idea, honestly
00:09:41 * GregorR is not sure whether that's a compliment or an insult :P
00:11:21 <int-e> I'm looking at the spec, but I promise nothing
00:11:39 <int-e> I'd just much more like to see a compact table then that lengthy report ;)
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06:14:28 <GregorR> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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07:11:41 <graue> note for jix or anyone else interested in benchmarking BF implementations:
07:11:57 <graue> factor.b by Brian Raiter may be a worthwhile/interesting test
07:12:25 <graue> you can save a large integer followed by newline in a text file, and pass that on stdin
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10:16:39 <{^Raven^}> anyone know if brainwash 0.3 has been released anywhere yet
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15:09:18 <Keymaker> check out language #759 at 99-bottles-of-beer.net..
15:11:11 <Keymaker> rgh. i'll be a while away, i have to return some dvds
15:29:19 <jix> Keymaker: cool
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15:36:25 <Gs30ng> Udage official website is now available: http://gs30ng.exca.net/udage
15:39:35 <Keymaker> judging by the logs it seems gregor has exploded once again..
15:39:41 <Keymaker> anything other interesting happened?
15:42:14 <jix> i'm working on my website...
15:42:43 <Keymaker> lemme guess.. it has esolangs?
15:43:27 <jix> i'm going to use it for all my projects (including esolangs)
15:46:41 <jix> but i have to make a database layout
15:46:52 <jix> that's the annoying part
15:47:52 <jix> i use a gui so it's easy to actually create all the tables.. but i don't want to create the tables and recreate them tomorrow because they don't work as i want
15:51:36 <jix> i want: a simple blog, some pages (with comment function) and a file manager
15:55:23 <jix> mysqld refuses to start
15:55:50 <jix> Starting mysqld daemon with databases from /usr/local/mysql/data
15:55:50 <jix> STOPPING server from pid file /usr/local/mysql/data/oceanic.local.pid
15:55:50 <jix> 050730 16:55:50 mysqld ended
15:58:25 <jix> reinstall...
16:03:33 <jix> mysql sucks
16:36:26 <{^Raven^}> jix: if you have/use DWMX there is a good tutorial on making a PHP/MySQL blog on the macromedia site
16:52:30 <jix> no i wrote the design by hand
16:52:49 <jix> and i'm not going to use php
16:52:55 <jix> because php sucks
16:53:17 <Keymaker> (and i guess you'll be using ruby?)
16:53:34 <jix> because i wan't an object-orientated (php is pseudo object-orientated) language for web-applications
16:53:50 <jix> because i want a mvc webapp (model-view-controller)
16:53:59 <jix> i'm using ruby-on-rails
16:54:57 <jix> php is not object orientated because i have to do ary_push($array,"bla") instead of $array.push("bla")...
16:55:06 <jix> and i hate using str_* ary_* ...
16:55:24 <jix> and i hate $ variables
16:57:03 <Keymaker> hmm typing is hard if you connect your fingers to each other with some rubber band..
16:57:21 <Keymaker> (too bad i don't have another to tie the right hand)
16:58:55 <Keymaker> well, had to take the rubber band off, the colour started to change in fingers
16:59:35 <jix> its funny to type with one hand
16:59:43 <Keymaker> interesting new esoteric programming tool; the rubber band! tie your fingers to make it harder to type
17:00:03 <jix> i prefer typing with one hand
17:00:27 <jix> i dont know how fast i am with one hand
17:03:36 <jix> Your score: 123 keys per minute ~ 24 words per minute
17:03:37 <jix> one handed
17:04:02 <jix> i'm testing 2 handed now
17:04:39 <jix> lang is english because german umlauts and those Uppercase words slow down...
17:07:05 <jix> Your score: 349 keys per minute ~ 69 words per minute
17:07:39 <jix> Mistakes: nly(only), eastwood(Eastwood), pice(piece), cu(cut), tof(of), argely(largely), diversityy(diversity), dnominations,(denominations,), it(its), fell(feel)
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18:43:59 <graue> I wrote up a 1L proposal at http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:1L
18:58:57 <graue> just found a flaw in it; it can't output 0 bits, so apparently it needs a special TL2
20:05:00 <GregorR> Umm .. can you flip TL0 without going to TL-1?
20:07:39 <graue> the flippage is done after the move
20:08:06 <GregorR> Oh, so it is, I was reading backwards.
20:09:38 <graue> http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/junk/1l_a.c untested interpreter
20:09:41 <GregorR> It would be good if Down and Right were nops, so you could get as far from the corner as you'd like before actually going.
20:10:20 <GregorR> I'm not sure if it affects hypothetical Turing-completeness though.
20:10:35 <graue> yeah, I guess you have a point
20:11:55 <graue> updated the interpreter to switch up/down
20:12:50 <graue> speaking of which, if you can figure out why HelloWorld.2l doesn't work in my interpreter even with up/down switched, let me know
20:13:20 <GregorR> It's probably because mine is horribly flawed 8D
20:22:27 <graue> I've changed the symbols in 1L_a
20:22:36 <graue> what was * is now space, what was + is now everything else
20:31:44 <jix> i don't know what color is the best for my website
20:31:49 <jix> jix.is-a-geek.org:59658/design/designrot/design.html jix.is-a-geek.org:59658/design/designblau/design.html jix.is-a-geek.org:59658/design/design.html ?
20:32:44 <graue> I prefer the blue one
20:33:08 <jix> everyone says the blue is the best
20:33:19 <jix> but imo the blue is the worst one
20:33:20 <graue> the red is too in-your-face to be used throughout the page
20:33:29 <graue> and the yellow is too bright, although the color isn't bad
20:33:50 <GregorR> But as the only person on the planet who likes yellow tones, my opinion is invalid.
20:34:05 <graue> the yellow one would be great if it were darker
20:34:19 <jix> GregorR: the yellow one is the original.. i prefer the yellow and the red but i can't decide
20:34:38 <GregorR> I agree with graue that the red is too "in-your-face"
20:36:12 <Gs30ng> color should be esoteric
20:37:38 <jix> Gs30ng: show me an esoteric color
20:46:13 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_%28color%29
20:49:42 <jix> http://jix.is-a-geek.org:59658/design/designgruen/design.html << green
20:51:53 <jix> grue or bleen...hmm
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22:21:33 <calamari> bfdebug 1.50 is now available: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/
22:21:37 <jix> calamari: cool
22:21:51 <jix> bfdebug is cool
22:23:04 <jix> there is one feature i'd like to have
22:23:16 <jix> a set program pointer to position feature
22:23:55 <jix> yes a goto button
22:24:05 <calamari> what woudl you use that for (just curious)
22:24:18 <jix> just test a part of a code
22:24:34 <jix> start the code at any point
22:24:56 <calamari> seems like it'd get confused because the brackets wouldn't match
22:25:22 <jix> i can stop edit and remove brackets.. no problems
22:25:35 <jix> stop edit remove-bracktets start....
22:25:51 <calamari> actually, wait.. it wouldn't care
22:26:01 <jix> and i'd like to stop goto start
22:26:18 <jix> and labeling of memory cells would be cool
22:26:29 <calamari> labelling of memory cells is already there
22:26:58 <jix> calamari: where?
22:27:10 <calamari> then you can jump to a cell with @name
22:27:38 <jix> locate is at alt+l ?
22:27:52 <jix> that's a problem because the @ character on a mac is on alt-l too
22:28:23 <jix> well macs don't use alt and ctrl for command
22:28:54 <jix> ahh its de onlz
22:29:47 <calamari> not sure what to do about that, since the standard for accelerators is alt-letter
22:30:10 <jix> and windows
22:30:14 <calamari> what do you get with alt-shift-l ?
22:30:53 <jix> where are < and > on the us layout
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22:31:49 <jix> ' is shifted
22:31:53 <jix> i have ' on
22:32:22 <jix> but the letters are the same just y and z swapped
22:32:42 <jix> y is very rare in german
22:33:07 <jix> hmm .. german word with y...
22:33:44 <jix> old-spelling oxyd afaik.. but the new-spelling allows oxyd and oxid but i'm not sure
22:34:16 <jix> but it's only oxyd if it's connected with something else.. and than it isn't a real german word
22:35:04 <jix> Kohlenstoffdioxid is CO2 but O is Sauerstoff...
22:36:49 <calamari> what do you have alt-s, alt-p, alt-r, alt-f, alt-c? and what would you like alt-something for Locate?
22:37:39 <jix> s:‚ p:π r:® f:ƒ c:ç
22:38:21 <calamari> I can't read any of those letters on the first line
22:39:03 <jix> try /charset UTF-8
22:39:18 <jix> 23:38:42<jix>s:‚ p:π r:® f:ƒ c:ç
22:39:47 <jix> or some comma-alike
22:39:51 <jix> but i have a comma key
22:40:12 <calamari> looks like the only one I need to change is Alt-L
22:40:50 <calamari> I'll add a --german command line option that changes it to Alt-P
22:41:18 <jix> i'm launching it using the finder... no command line
22:41:30 <jix> oh and it should be --german-mac
22:41:42 <jix> because on german windows its altgr-q afaik
22:42:07 <calamari> okay, I can make a menu option for it
22:42:13 <jix> hehe thanks
22:57:11 <calamari> jix: got the kayboard fix done, now thinking about goto
22:59:52 <jix> its the copyright sign
23:00:31 <jix> @ and ~ are the only alt-letter ascii characters
23:00:55 <jix> ~ is alt-n and is a combine key alt-n => ~ alt-n+n => ñ
23:08:48 <calamari> anything else before I put this up?
23:09:29 <calamari> raven: any bugs you've noticed in bfdebug? features?
23:09:58 <jix> converting $a=0 and @a and such things to >>> and <<<
23:10:28 <jix> and another (bigger) feature a template system
23:10:38 <{^Raven^}> calamari: yeah, bfdebug still throws exceptions occasionally
23:11:23 <calamari> I've fixed one when cell=0 and inst = <
23:11:46 <jix> you have a library with templates like @var1+@var2- and you can insert it replacing @var1 and @var2 with @a and @some_other_var
23:12:04 <jix> and [code] with some other code (the selected as default)
23:12:21 <{^Raven^}> calamari: ignore, I'm using an ancient version atm, will upgrade :)
23:12:33 <jix> but that's just a cool not-so-important feature
23:12:45 <calamari> jix: I think I'll pass on that.. sounds very complicated
23:12:52 <jix> the conversion is more important imho
23:13:04 <{^Raven^}> calamari: bfdebug 1.22 was pretty fast with screen update disabled
23:14:05 <calamari> the new Fast option makes it run without updating the memory view until the program is stopped
23:14:10 <{^Raven^}> i disabled all redraw code just for the fun of it and bfdebug ran really fast
23:14:44 <jix> speed test code: +[[+]->+]
23:15:20 <jix> and yes the speed increase with fast is gigantic
23:15:48 <jix> oh another idea slow=> update always normal=> update every 20 instructions fast=> update never
23:16:17 <jix> because slow is to slow and fast isn't that good for debugging
23:16:38 <jix> oh and yet another idea... [-] optimisations.. i know [-] works i don't have to debug it ;)
23:16:43 <calamari> fast is most useful with the # stop
23:17:14 <jix> wasn't in 1.30
23:17:22 <jix> or was it 1.2?
23:17:34 <jix> the version i used for developing my hexprint code
23:17:57 <jix> hmm +++ => +3.. maybe?
23:17:57 <calamari> if you use the step button, it will still go through the [-] manually, but pass/run jump past in one step
23:18:30 <calamari> I was thinking about combining +/- but I'm not sure it'd really speed things up much
23:18:39 <jix> in slow mode it does
23:18:56 <jix> and > and < too
23:19:29 <jix> my hexprint uses much [--------------->+<] alike code and that's slow in slow mode but i like to watch memory
23:19:42 <jix> what exactly does pass?
23:20:36 <calamari> it executes a single pass of a loop
23:21:21 <jix> doesn't @bla conflict with Bit @?
23:21:47 <pgimeno> short note: updating the screen more than 100 times a second is absolutely meaningless
23:22:23 <calamari> jix: nope.. as long as you're careful about it
23:22:32 <pgimeno> I often use timers for screen update
23:23:24 <calamari> if you have a $abc=3 and you do @abc of course that'll conflict.. so don't do that ;)
23:25:03 <jix> calamari: stop has no short-cut
23:25:39 <jix> inserts an ® sign at the current command
23:26:22 <jix> i would disallow writes to the code during execution
23:26:52 <calamari> jix: good idea.. let me see if I can arrange that
23:28:18 <jix> why is my hostname 127.0.0.1
23:28:24 <jix> instead of oceanic.local
23:32:53 <calamari> jix: I just realized Alt-P is already being used by Pass, so that can't be the substitute for Alt-L
23:34:07 <{^Raven^}> calamari: on current source bfdebug is stepping through the code at about 1cps in non-fast mode
23:34:37 <jix> 100cps here
23:35:01 <calamari> raven: I noticed that once, but thought it was related to a bug I was working on at the time
23:36:59 <{^Raven^}> LostKingdom compiled with -d -t (code is 2.1Mb so that may be a factor)
23:38:43 <{^Raven^}> in non-fast mode UI takes about 5s to respond to input, in fast mode works as expected
23:40:14 * graue finally wrote a working 1L program to print "A", after two failed attempts
23:40:57 <calamari> seems to be slow on step and pass also
23:41:12 <graue> http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/junk/a.1l
23:42:16 <graue> interpreter: http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/junk/1l_a.c
23:43:13 <{^Raven^}> calamari: switching to slow mode the memory bar is not scrolling on > or < either
23:43:19 <jix> http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/junk/a.1l is more than 1L....
23:43:47 <jix> or is the white part the path.. i don't see the 1 instruction
23:43:55 <graue> it has two symbols intentionally if that's what you mean
23:43:59 <graue> the spaces are the path
23:44:39 <jix> isit turing complete?
23:45:35 <calamari> raven: that's strange, because it uses the original code when in slow mode
23:45:53 <graue> jix: but of course I haven't written anything in it that requires a loop yet
23:46:03 <graue> jix: see http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:1L
23:50:16 <{^Raven^}> i am running bfbasc (from BFBASIC examples) on itself and the input is being echoed to the output
23:50:25 <{^Raven^}> same thing happens with bf2c et al
23:51:08 <jix> {^Raven^}: maybe you checked the echo-input-to-output option?
23:55:40 <{^Raven^}> jix: thx, i hadn't spotted that new option