00:27:10 bbiaw.. phone 00:27:15 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:04:24 -!- graue has joined. 01:04:49 anyone written a quine in Qdeql yet? 01:08:06 my guess: no ;) 01:12:18 kipple, what have you been up to? 01:12:47 not too much :) 01:12:59 currently I'm pondering about the next Kipple version 01:13:40 Kipple07? 01:13:54 hehe. no 05 01:14:01 that should be done by now 01:14:02 hurry up with it 01:14:15 what's the rush? 01:14:21 oh, I was just jesting 01:14:31 actually I like kipple so much fundamentally that I've been thinking about the possibility of making a non-esoteric language resembling it 01:14:43 really? 01:14:47 yeah, it's cool having stacks built in like that 01:18:10 -!- calamari has joined. 01:18:13 hi 01:18:29 hi 01:18:48 hello 01:19:23 hi graue, kipple 01:19:43 that reminds me, I need to set up a cron job for that download :) 01:20:41 you need to write a quine in Qdeql 01:21:06 and it needs to be more than 0 bytes long 01:21:28 I wonder if there can be a tc language for which there is no quine 01:21:58 ah, that reminds me to forbid null programs in the Kipple spec :) 01:22:17 calamari: that is an interesting question! 01:29:17 graue: is & the only way to enqueue a byte in qdeql? 01:30:06 oh.. nm, I see it in \ 01:31:16 wait though.. when starting off there is nothing in the queue, so how do you get started besides input? 01:32:22 unless you start off with a single item in the queue.. then you could do -\ 01:48:44 \ reads 0 if the queue is empty 01:48:50 same as anything that reads from the queue 01:49:12 (that also means you can get a 0 byte by doing = to an empty queue, or get a 255 byte by doing - to an empty queue) 01:49:39 \ and & are the only ways to enqueue something when starting from a nonempty queue 01:49:57 of course there can be a TC language with no quine 01:50:01 Turing machines can't do output 01:50:09 there isn't a qdeql article in the wiki. do you have a link to the spec? 01:50:11 Smallfuck is a TC language with no quine 01:50:14 www.oceanbase.org/graue/qdeql 01:50:47 * kipple bookmarks it this time 01:51:27 if the queue is empy, how can you dequeue.. isn't that an error? 01:51:56 no, it returns 0 01:52:00 oh, I see it in the spec now :) 02:10:03 -!- kipple_ has joined. 02:10:03 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:15:18 calamari: turing proved that any TC language has a quine 02:17:16 -!- kipple_ has quit ("See you later"). 02:21:03 heatsink, um, that's not true 02:21:07 it cannot be 02:21:16 TC languages are not obligated to provide any form of output 02:21:34 and you can't just say "any TC language with output" because what if it can't output all of the characters used in its source? 02:22:00 what if it throws a "This programming language is (C) 1999 ME! All rights reserved" message into the beginning of the output and using that is invalid? 02:22:14 you would need a totally different definition than "TC language" in order to provide anything meaningful like that 02:35:46 graue: if it throws that into the beginning of output it's okay, because the quine when run will automatically output that too 02:35:59 I'm pretty sure that the only output of a turing computer is what that computer writes on the tape (which is also its input) 02:36:37 So any program that has the same contents of the tape when it halts is a turing machine quine. 02:36:39 graue: oh wait.. yeah :) 02:36:57 That is different from having a separate I/O channel, I guess 02:37:12 graue: so I think that's pretty good evidence against quines :) 02:37:25 http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Courses/cs682/2004sp/Lectures/l34-recthm.pdf first page talks about the relation of quines to the fixpoint operator 02:54:07 since a UTM has to have a description of a TM on its tape when it starts... seems dreadfully easy to make a quine ;) 02:54:39 heh 03:03:45 bbl 03:03:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:20:01 heatsink, for the memory to be the code when the program finishes is not possible in many Turing-complete languages 03:20:13 the memory may not be a sequence of bytes (like code usually is) 03:21:19 that makes sense. 04:41:53 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:05:28 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 06:06:09 -!- graue has left (?). 06:24:21 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:40:18 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:20:24 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 13:23:32 -!- jix has joined. 13:35:17 moin 13:45:18 ! 14:02:55 -!- tokigun has joined. 14:08:40 moin tokigun 14:09:21 away 14:10:18 hello 15:16:48 -!- kipple has joined. 17:05:59 back 17:20:14 i'm writing a YABALL interpreter atm 17:24:12 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 18:08:33 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:08:46 'elgooggro 18:15:42 YABALL interpreter done 18:20:42 -!- azurespace has joined. 18:20:52 -!- azurespace has left (?). 18:23:00 underflow..grrr 18:36:25 found the bug.. 18:37:01 -!- tokigun has joined. 19:14:09 yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!! 19:14:18 i got the quine under 1000 instructions 19:14:19 http://bf-hacks.org/hacks/quine.b 19:14:24 933 instructions 19:14:29 neat 19:14:30 the previous version was 1011 19:14:33 thanks 19:15:01 so, neatly 78 instructions less :) 19:16:10 my goal was to get a quine under 1000 instructions, and i finally succeeded. now i don't write bf quines for a while, i'll do other kind of programs :) 19:18:24 (in bf, of course) 19:18:29 anyways, must go. 19:18:31 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:36:28 ok YABALL interpreter is linked on the wiki 19:44:10 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:44:42 I need a good dictionary of words related to esoteric programming to use for my scrabble clone :P 19:53:19 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:54:06 -!- CXI has joined. 20:14:40 an entire dictionary? good luck... (the wiki is a good starting place) 20:15:05 are language names acceptable? 20:26:34 -!- J|x has joined. 20:27:48 <{^Raven^}> kipple: technichally no because they are proper nouns but you could make an exception 20:28:24 yes, I know the normal rules 20:29:34 but an esoteric scrabble that does not allow words like brainfuck or funge? I'd say allow it 20:30:02 <{^Raven^}> definatekly 20:38:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:51:19 -!- graue has joined. 21:06:15 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 21:09:57 My fault. The word "dictionary" is inaccurate here. 21:10:01 I really just mean "word list" 21:10:13 Hell, doesn't even have to be words. 21:11:45 I'm just trying to think of some bizarre dictionaries for my bizarre scrabble clone. Currently the only one I have is the libc symbol list :) 21:12:30 I tried to play as "Himself" in one of your games, but I couldn't come up with anything that would fit 21:15:04 so just copy all the language names and make a wordlist out of those, and related terms 21:15:18 funge, quine, stack, queue, cell, turing, etc 21:15:55 how about TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL with triple word score? 21:16:09 it's longer than 15 letters, so it can't be done :( 21:17:08 My board uses 20 letters. 21:17:15 -!- csaba has joined. 21:17:33 great then 21:17:34 The problem is, my libc symbol dictionary has 2,800 something words, and it's really, REALLY tough. 21:17:40 Hi, I've finished writing a visual Turing machine designer. If you're interested check it out: an be done? 21:17:40 [21:40] hmm maybe firefox will do 21:17:43 an be done? 21:17:44 [21:40] hmm maybe firefox will do 21:18:03 Didn't have the copy buffer you thought you did? :) 21:18:04 http://sourceforge.net/projects/visualturing/ 21:18:05 I'm interested in what you think 21:18:10 yeah 21:18:30 GregorR, libc has a lot of repetition 21:18:53 e.g. the fact that you can make all of vsprintf, vprintf, vsnprintf, snprintf, sprintf, printf, and fprintf, doesn't help much 21:19:06 Even so, the list of languages and common elements in esoteric languages would be well under 1000, probably under 500. 21:19:19 "quine," "cell," and "turing" are easy 21:19:37 don't make me write this wordlist for you 21:19:41 lol 21:19:53 I'll look in to it when not at work ;) 21:20:15 Turing machine is considered esoteric language? 21:20:35 no, but we like to prove that esoteric languages are equivalent to Turing machines 21:20:43 because that means they can compute lots of stuff 21:20:46 ah 21:21:14 so basically it's propaganda to fool people into using esoteric languages? :) 21:22:05 uh, no. It's for proving the usefulness of the language 21:22:26 anyone used brainfuck? 21:22:40 ha! 21:22:58 anyone not used brainfuck here? 21:23:11 I've downloaded an interpreter and now I've showing it to everyone to see what kind of people exist 21:23:21 they're like omg 21:23:24 lol 21:23:30 turing machines are very much like an esoteric language 21:23:39 they're about as hard to write programs for as brainfuck. 21:23:48 check out my program: 21:23:48 [22:20] "quine," "cell," and "turing" are easy 21:23:48 [22:20] don't make me write this wordlist for you 21:23:52 damn 21:23:57 http://sourceforge.net/projects/visualturing/ 21:24:14 I designed a machine which calculates factoriel in less than 5 minutes 21:24:21 -!- malaprop_ has joined. 21:29:37 that's cool 21:29:43 wait, a factorial of what? 21:30:10 well, 5! is |||||| and you'd get 125+1 lines in the end ;) 21:30:22 i see 21:30:56 it's cute to look at the machine head going left and right, doing stuff etc... 21:31:22 -!- malaprop has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:31:53 csaba: the factorial of 5 is 120 21:31:58 oops 21:32:14 I'm really tired, I haven't slept normally for 3 days 21:35:28 it is cool that you made this 21:36:12 does it run at yourplace? I'm worried that because it's written in Java people might have problems in starting it 21:38:09 I don't have java 21:49:02 csaba: just create a native binary and people can run it just like any other program 21:50:11 I've placed a start.exe which runs the "java -jar Turing.jar" command... it should work if JVM is installed... 21:51:00 csaba: yeah, but you can make it turing.exe with GCC 21:51:57 well ok, I'll make an exe... 21:53:15 Doesn't it use swing? Is there a swing for GCJ? 21:53:27 GregorR: yep 21:54:46 GregorR: and it's improving at a steady pace 21:57:05 although it seems to have some issues... 22:07:50 csaba: always use the name of the containing folder for a zip/tgz file.. it's a lot easier to find the folder that way.. 22:09:15 jix: rename the zip file to Turing.zip ? 22:09:28 i can't guess the name of the folder 22:10:06 ok I'll keep that in mind 22:10:11 but i like sticking the archive and folder together in a sorted list.. 22:11:23 well I was just happy I finished the damn thing, I haven't slept normally for 3 days because of it... didn't think about how to name the zip file ;) 22:11:47 hehehe 22:13:14 ok, I'll compile an exe file tomorrow... might as well add a readme.txt... now I'm going to bed... 22:13:32 -!- csaba has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC for those that like to be different"). 22:31:11 g'nite 22:31:25 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network").