00:06:36 hi GregorR 00:06:58 lol.. autocomplete gave away my laziness :) 00:51:43 -!- calamari has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:51:43 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:51:46 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:51:55 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:56:06 -!- cpressey has joined. 01:00:11 -!- calamari has joined. 01:47:27 -!- heatsink has joined. 02:38:10 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:56:36 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:58:03 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:29:10 -!- calamari has joined. 05:32:59 hi 05:36:17 * GregorR eats calamari. 05:36:21 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, squid. 05:36:34 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 05:40:50 brb 05:49:20 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:08:20 -!- calamari has joined. 06:08:28 re 06:08:51 hi 06:09:27 hi pgimeno, how's it going? :) 06:09:53 fine, except that a mosquito woke me up earlier than I wish 06:10:08 have you been away or something? 06:10:18 where do you live? no mosquitos in Tucson, AZ right now :) 06:10:25 Spain 06:10:51 pgimeno: yeah, I walked into the kitchen and the room was full of gas.. had to get off to call maintenance 06:11:13 yuck, sounds dangerous 06:11:47 yeah.. I'm not very familiar with gas stoves yet.. I've had electric all my life 06:12:34 I've tried esoshell but even 'help' fails to work... I don't know what happens 06:12:50 brb 06:21:16 pgimeno: yeah, that's weird.. 06:21:46 I wonder if I can write a Java 1.1 version of the applet... I should try it 06:40:29 cool, got a test button working in AWT.. now on the rest of the application :) 06:40:53 Ah, good ooooooooooooooool' AWT 06:42:10 especially the ooooooooool' part ;) 06:42:19 Hence the preponderance of 'o's ;) 06:43:50 this is java 1.4, for the record 06:44:26 I'm running Java pre-alpha 0.1, will it work for me? 06:47:18 hehe 06:47:41 SO, who wants to form the #esoteric chat room on DirectNet? 8-D 06:54:14 GregorR: are we moving? :) 06:54:28 No, I'm just trying to get users :'( 06:54:51 * calamari likes freenode 06:55:01 DirectNet isn't IRC :P 06:55:13 oh really? what is it? 06:55:22 It's DirectNet 8-D 06:55:25 heh 06:55:37 It's my instant messaging and chat system (shameless plug points +1) 07:07:14 * pgimeno goes to work 07:22:49 hmm it works.. kinda :) 07:23:41 * calamari attempts to remove a duplicate set of unwanted scrollbars 07:33:55 calamari: btw, a tricky keyevent bug has been fixed in gnu classpath and now esoshell can be used with it 07:34:16 there's still some repaint problem though, but it does not render it unusable 07:36:37 lindi-: cool! :) 07:37:02 I'm not quite sure that I 07:37:15 'll be able to restrict the cursor w/ AWT.. but I'm trying 07:43:11 calamari: why AWT? 07:43:39 lindi-: the applet does not seem to work at all with IE.. I'm hoping now it will 07:43:50 I should try it :) 07:44:28 also, I want to try to get it working for pgimeno 07:44:51 pgimeno? 07:45:09 yeah 07:53:40 hmm, I don't get it.. still doesn't work in IE 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:14 well, it's running in IE, kinda 08:21:06 -!- sp3tt has joined. 08:22:29 i have no idea what pgimeno is 08:24:42 lindi-: pgimeno is a guy that hangs out in here :) 08:24:51 me, concretely ;) 08:24:53 re 08:25:02 pgimeno: hi :) 08:25:10 calamari: ah :) 08:25:14 thanks for the effort, calamari 08:25:38 pgimeno: try this (I'm very curious) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell-AWT/ 08:26:00 It looks terrible and doesn't work right.. but maybe it'll load? 08:27:10 it does load indeed and it looks terrible indeed ;) 08:28:01 cool.. it's "working" in IE 08:28:11 you have to click where the cursor should be :) 08:31:30 StringBuffer didn't have a delete method until Java 1.2.. lol 08:32:08 I bet there are plenty of these little 1.2+ bugs hiding everywhere 08:32:56 I repeat that this is 1.4 08:34:24 pgimeno: IE doesn't seem to like it unless it's 1.1 or below 08:34:36 * pgimeno tries 08:34:59 I mean the Java methods 08:35:09 maybe iut's the way I'm compiling it 08:35:55 hm, I see, IE does not load anything 08:36:15 really? works here (ie 6) 08:37:30 okay, now they work in reverse: EsoShell/ works in IE while EsoShell-AWT does not (IE 6.0.2600.0000.whatever, Java 1.4.2_06) 08:41:54 snapshot: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoshell.png 08:42:31 the truncation is there in the original 08:46:56 yeah thats the awt version.. I didn't bother fixing the size yet 08:47:17 k 08:48:24 what I'm trying to find out is whether I can actually run 1.2+ functions in IE.. I have Java1.4 installed so the answer should be yes 08:49:11 if so, then I can probably use the original Swing stuff 08:51:48 is bf supposed to work? 08:52:29 in the Swing version, yes 08:53:08 there are lots of awt bugs right now 08:53:52 "write once, run everywhere"... ha 09:00:49 pgimeno: sure, just use gnu classpath :) 09:05:07 I think I found my problem, at least.. it may be using Microsoft Java and not Sun 09:05:15 -!- sp3tt_ has joined. 09:05:51 yay for qemu 09:10:07 lindi-: gcj must have come a long way since the last time I used it if it can run Swing apps now 09:13:27 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 09:47:30 cool.. my Java install was broken.. even http://kidsquid.com/EsoShell works in IE6 now.. boy is Sun Java slow compared to the Microsoft JIT.. took about 10 minutes to load the applet in qemu 09:50:24 I guess MS preloads stuff to create the illusion that it loads faster 09:51:19 This box has Sun's jdk-1.5/5.0/whatever, and it loads in a ~second. 09:51:41 man, google maps is so awesome 09:51:47 pgimeno: or it's so old that it only can use java 1.1 ;) 09:52:12 fizzie: yeah, same with my linux machine.. it's only slow in the emulator 09:53:42 pgimeno: any idea how to add the applet to the wiki? 09:53:54 lament; it seems to lack this thing called Europe. 09:54:30 hmm, I'm not sure that's possible directly 09:54:38 yeah, but i'm in america 09:54:48 calamari: it has 09:54:55 but it's just so completely amazing 09:55:19 you can switch to satellite view and get from anywhere to anywhere by scrolling the thing 09:55:50 the quality gets very shitty outside populated areas though :( 09:56:35 calamari: try asking graue 09:57:58 Mt. St. Helens 09:57:59 http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.197510,-122.187195&spn=0.212173,0.276031&t=k&hl=en 09:58:11 for spain we have http://sigpac.mapa.es/fega/visor/ 09:59:48 oh man los angeles is fucking HUGE 10:00:25 pgimeno: oh that's right.. hafta beg to upload files, don't I? hehe 10:01:08 well, you can get svn write permissions but that's not a wiki page by itself 10:01:38 http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.197510,-122.187195&spn=0.212173,0.276031&t=k&hl=en 10:02:22 i mean 10:02:23 http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.208649,-73.164825&spn=0.848694,1.104126&t=k&hl=en 10:05:15 -!- DMM has joined. 10:06:12 hi DMM 10:06:17 evening 10:12:12 I read about Homespring for the first time today. Wow... that just blew me away :-) 10:14:16 we've been wondering which of npiet or the perl interpreter is more correct according to the piet specs 10:15:07 oh... I haven't looked at them myself. What's the difference? 10:16:52 please see http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/picture.html 10:16:55 (bottom) 10:17:36 oh hi dmm 10:18:00 DMM: graue is afraid to use your fibonacci program as the logo 10:18:09 DMM: because the npiet page says it has a bug and doesn't work 10:18:27 (the page pgimeno just gave a link to) 10:18:34 I intended the npiet behaviour of sliding in a straight line 10:19:11 hmmm, there may be a bug :-( 10:19:23 It's hard to code in when you don't have an interpreter :-) 10:20:26 so you never actually checked the program? 10:21:21 not with an interpreter. There was none when I wrote them. I traced them by hand. 10:23:07 it might just need a black codel instead of the white one above the yellow block 10:29:27 I've just tried that and it prints 112 and exits 10:29:28 hmmm 10:29:33 hmm 10:29:40 hm 10:29:40 does Prelude qualify as a turing tarpit? 10:30:02 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:30:04 it has 19 instructions 10:30:09 ten of which push numbers 0..9 10:30:16 pgimeno: please feel free to debug it properly :-) 10:31:49 112 implies it's traversing the loop once and then falling out 10:32:31 might need changing of the yellow codel below the blue loop entry point to another colour 10:37:15 I just like making the languages... actually coding in them isn't nearly as much fun. :-) 10:37:27 :) 10:39:07 I have some cool ideas for more non-textual languages 10:39:45 I'm kind of surprised that Piet seems to be the first one 10:40:37 I'd like to see a graphical language with graphical output 10:40:42 I want to do a Tetris-based one, where you drop different blocks into a well, and when the rows disappear, the configuration of colours in the row causes operations to occur 10:41:09 there're non-textual languages 10:41:22 aardappel made a bunch i believe 10:41:32 oooh 10:42:42 a Tetris-based lang could be NP-complete to code in :) 10:45:11 indeed he has. A lot of tree-based ones though... 10:46:47 reference for Tetris NP-completeness: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~edemaine/papers/Tetris_TR2002/ 10:49:52 hm 10:49:56 * lament creates http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Popular_problem 10:50:06 not sure if the article name is any good 10:53:26 good article. Yeah, there's no obvious name for it 10:55:17 * DMM ponders a quine in Piet... 10:55:47 hm 10:55:57 you never specify the format of input 10:56:30 it's "any lossless graphics format", pretty much? 10:56:31 numbers or characters :-) 10:56:41 oh, that... yeah, basically 10:57:10 i'm actually working (sort of) on a language where source code is polyphonic music 10:57:24 although ideally it's really just the colours. The encoding into a graphics format is just a way of representing the program, not the program itself. :_) 10:57:42 i'm so confused as to what format i would use that i doubt i'll ever implement it 10:57:54 oooh... I thought of a music-based language just yesterday. But I guess I'll let you do it first :-) 10:57:55 i'll just write programs and play them on the piano :) 10:58:06 well, i already have one as it happens :) 10:58:20 documented? 10:58:21 just not sure if it's good enough 10:58:22 no 10:58:23 well 10:58:27 have a look at Prelude 10:58:40 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Prelude 10:58:53 Fugue will be the same, except with different intervals corresponding to different instructions 10:59:06 each "voice" is indeed a separate voice 10:59:10 note duration doesn't matter 10:59:47 interesting 11:03:50 I was thinking of a language based on actual music. Where the note, duration, key, time signature, etc are important 11:04:06 you'd write it on a stave 11:04:24 well, there's no reason to have EVERYTHING be important 11:04:34 well no... 11:05:05 Fugue you write on a stave. But the only thing that matters are the intervals (and the number of voices) 11:06:18 music notation is just way too packed with different kinds of info 11:06:22 wow, now you got the complete spec? 11:06:35 for Fugue? on 11:06:37 *no 11:06:49 well 11:06:59 i can just tell you the provisional list of intervals 11:07:23 i'm just afraid my provisional list sucks 11:13:52 * puzzlet is trying to learn Prelude 11:14:47 I got some TV to watch... later guys 11:15:10 lament: about ^ and v, does it pop the top value from current voice? 11:15:16 puzzlet: no 11:15:21 it doesn't pop anything at all 11:15:26 -!- DMM has left (?). 11:15:42 only ! and # would pop the top value? 11:15:44 yeah 11:16:59 ah, i get it 11:17:26 my thinking about a music-based language is that only note increases/decreases count as instructions; that allows for maximum expressiveness IMO 11:17:42 That's how Fugue will work. 11:17:54 nice! 11:18:01 I should just release the damn spec actually. 11:18:05 i like the () idea, looks like a pair of repeat bars 11:18:14 In fact, how about I do that. 11:19:19 what is your plan to notate down the music into a file? 11:19:32 No plans at all 11:19:38 I'm not planning to implement Fugue :) 11:19:54 that's sad 11:20:33 i wish to write a meta-code, which itself is a true fugue.. 11:21:16 haha 11:21:48 if Fugue code is written on midi, midi format doesn't have repeat bars. 11:22:18 why not write an implementation? just write a Fourier analyzer to interpret the sound coming to the soundcard; you could even whistle the programs 11:22:38 puzzlet: actually repeating a sound when the program is in a loop is kinda silly. 11:22:56 pgimeno: you can't very well whistle three-part polyphony 11:23:25 with the help of two other guys, you can :) 11:23:26 that's why we should do a pair programming 11:23:31 or trio programming 11:24:37 programming in pairs is part of the "xtreme programming" philosophy 11:24:56 i know. i was joking :) 11:25:22 hahaha 11:25:37 so, instead of handing the keyboard one to the other, they could both whistle at the same time 11:26:05 that can increase the production of code 11:31:56 I guess I should implement the rest of my Prelude Befunge interpreter. 11:32:58 okay 11:33:02 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fugue 11:42:33 interesting, indeed 11:43:12 though it needs too much information in my opinion 11:43:44 imagine the BF quine that starts with a lot of +++++++>++++>++++++++... 11:44:36 so write a symphony 11:45:18 note that ++++++++ is just three notes in Fugue 11:46:01 any third and an ascending minor sixth 11:46:01 I was thinking in the line of "note increment wrt the last" = 1; "note decrement wrt the last" = 0; "same note" = "repeat last symbol", and a minimalistic two-symbol language like whirl, iota or jot 11:46:34 oh 11:46:44 might work but notes would soon go out of range 11:46:50 audible range, that is 11:47:07 no, because you can always correct 11:47:14 by pushing a number and popping it 11:47:23 oh, then that's OK 11:47:32 i.e. any third + any interval whatever + repeat last note 11:48:01 you've forgotten to include it in the main list, btw 11:48:08 include what? 11:48:16 Fugue 11:48:19 oh 11:48:47 do we really need both the main list and category:language 11:49:25 Fugue is definitely harder to write nice-sounding music in than a language like you proposed 11:49:44 my idea was that the main list hold short one-line descriptions of each language 11:49:52 but who ever sad writing music should be easy :) 11:49:56 *said 11:50:35 I remember someone saying that most songs can be distinguished by coding the increments/decrements of notes in them 11:51:12 that's what suggested me the idea 11:52:50 bbl 11:54:42 lament, how do you define ' ' in Fugue? 11:55:05 there is no ' ' 11:55:13 you can have pauses 11:55:19 or long notes 11:55:34 then do note lengths matter? 11:56:06 only in that they establish what comes before what. 11:56:15 (or simultaneously with) 11:57:34 ah 12:07:04 -!- kipple has joined. 12:45:23 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:45:45 . 12:46:55 .. 12:47:23 [.>] 12:49:48 ++ 12:51:13 [-] 12:51:15 :p 12:52:07 i'm reading about pygame 12:52:12 it's confusing when there are + and - signs all over what others say. 12:52:20 [20:47:57] +.. 12:52:21 [20:48:25] +[.>] 12:52:21 [20:50:50] +++ 12:52:21 [20:52:15] -[-] 12:52:42 w+h-a-t ++do +y-ou+ ++me-a+n++? 12:54:01 it seems it's server's problem 12:54:53 i see + and - signs everwhere in freenode, and even ACTION's don't look as what they should look. 12:55:58 that's strange 12:56:10 hm 12:56:24 I think it must be because of your IRC client 12:56:31 yeah 12:56:56 i use irssi. i checked rawlog, but there are the signs there too 12:57:49 and it just came out to happen yesterday when i restarted the client. no changes to configuration 13:05:51 Uh, strange. I don't see any +s. 13:06:00 (This is irssi, too.) 13:28:14 anyone know where i could find this file pygame-1.6.win32-py2.4.exe (windows pygame)? 13:28:19 can't download from official site 13:28:41 (404) 13:30:03 Well, http://www.willmcgugan.com/pygame-1.6.win32-py2.4.exe for example. 13:30:05 Says google. 13:31:05 google? is that some new search engine? 13:31:09 anyways, thanks 13:31:53 Keymaker, you must be kidding 13:33:55 ? 13:34:02 never heard of any google before 13:35:31 http://www.google.com/ 13:40:03 i was joking ;) 13:42:01 you scared me 13:47:23 :) 13:47:36 Since Keymaker just found the internet yesterday ;) 13:50:10 :) 14:14:10 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:23:32 -!- malaprop has joined. 14:24:19 -!- lament has joined. 15:52:23 kipple: seen movie "hawaii, oslo" 15:52:27 ? 15:53:47 yes 15:54:04 ah 15:54:07 was it good? 15:54:15 it was ok 15:54:22 ok 15:54:39 why? are you gonna watch it? 15:55:04 i just thought because it starts screening here and there reads it was huge success in norway 15:55:08 and maybe 15:55:42 it was a bit overrated IMHO. It got extremely good reviews here 15:55:50 ok 15:55:55 the story sounds interesting 15:56:56 or should i perhaps go to see "white noise"? 15:57:02 some new horror movie 15:57:13 don't know anything about that one 16:00:16 yeah 16:01:04 it sounds a bit cliché.. 16:01:18 or dunno :) 16:01:37 movies just tend to be cliché today because everything's done before 16:21:16 ok.. i'll go to see movie "hostage" 16:21:21 at 20:30 16:31:51 * sp3tt_ wrote a 4 page PDF on brainfuck >.< 16:31:56 I was bored. 16:36:19 :) 16:36:40 upload it somewhere, i'd like to read it later when it get back home 16:37:24 (i need to leave now because i booked the movie ticket from web so i need to get it before 19:30) 16:37:27 'bye 16:37:33 doh, Piet is troublesome in that inserting or removing an instruction means changing the whole program 16:37:37 later Keymaker 16:37:41 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 16:38:23 that's the issue of incremental instructions 16:39:49 it's easier to write a new program than to modify an existing one 16:40:33 I wanted to fix the fibonacci Piet program but I think that writing another one will be easier 16:41:41 I think that one which prints "ESOTERIC" will be OK to be used as a logo 17:24:08 -!- sp3tt_ has changed nick to sp3tt. 17:33:19 this Piet program prints "ESO": http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/eso-big.png 17:35:41 pgimeno: nice 17:35:54 I'm sorry, I'm not much of an artist 17:46:23 Wow. 17:46:27 That's awesome. 17:48:17 nice pgimeno! 18:35:08 -!- wooby has joined. 21:11:50 -!- graue has joined. 22:09:57 -!- calamari has joined. 22:10:03 hi 22:10:33 hey 22:11:20 hio 22:11:34 hey lament, wooby.. what's new & exciting? 22:12:07 not much, working through a bison tutorial with the ultimate hope of fashioning a BF compiler 22:12:36 nifty 22:12:55 what will be the hll? 22:13:12 something you invent, or c-like? 22:13:53 what do you mean by hll? 22:14:05 i'm at the very start of this tutorial, you see :) 22:14:11 high level language 22:14:16 calamari: i'm guessing he wants to compile brainfuck 22:14:20 maybe I misunderstand what you're trying to do 22:14:37 lament: oic 22:14:52 lament is correct 22:15:14 my usual fun is compiling to bf, so I get easily confused :) 22:15:35 lol i know what you mean, i'm interested in that too :) 22:15:47 how about you, what's new and great 22:16:32 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:19:01 wooby: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization 22:19:38 wooby: I think that last step still needs a bit of work, though :) I'd like a way to modify every bit, not just every other 22:22:21 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:22:24 hm, that's fascinating 22:22:27 pgimeno: looks great 22:22:31 calamari: wow!!!!! 22:22:34 that stuff is great 22:22:50 i don't remember if i have mentioned that before, i saw that link yesterday 22:22:56 (iirc) 22:23:24 Keymaker: thanks.. but I haven't really progressed much past BitChanger of a few years ago 22:25:33 but that's really good achievement too 22:26:43 I'm not sure that it's turing complete yet 22:28:11 for example (}()) should be like [-]<.. but it only gets it by luck 22:36:23 actually it'd be (()}) wouldn't it 22:44:48 -!- graue_ has joined. 22:49:05 hi graue 23:18:35 and btw, "hostage" was very good movie 23:21:20 hi calamari 23:26:11 graue: I'd really like to integrate EsoShell into the wiki. Would you like to work on it with me? 23:26:49 i'd rather not have executable code running out of the wiki 23:26:56 it's for information, not running programs 23:27:51 graue: your vision of the wiki is a bit narrower than I'd hoped for 23:28:28 I'm halfway wondering if you'll be pulling up those in-progress pages at any moment 23:30:29 now I realize it's your wiki, you're running it, and all that.. which I appreciate.. but perhaps if you're going to stifle the expressive purposes of the wiki we need to abandon your stranglehold and start a new wiki elsewhere 23:31:20 calamari: how exactly were you thinking of integrating the esoshell into the wiki? 23:32:05 kipple: when all this wiki talk started up again, it was suggested that it'd be cool to be able to experimentally test esolangs from the wiki 23:32:24 yeah, I know. I think it was me who suggested it... 23:32:39 add a prominent external link then 23:32:56 you could put it in the files archive and link to it from the wiki. 23:34:00 Speaking of wiki and files, what's the word on scheduled dumps? 23:35:10 help me out, how do i dump a mysql database from the command line? 23:35:40 there's a program called mysqldump 23:35:56 mysqldump -a -c -C-e --add-drop-table --delayed-insert -Q -u (username) -p(password) -h (host) (db-name) 23:36:10 er, there should be a space between -C and -e 23:36:26 and probably tag onto the end > filename 23:36:47 or pipe it to gzip 23:37:12 kipple: or bzip2 as it deals better with text 23:37:20 so true 23:37:27 doesn't bzip2 deal better with everything, not just text? 23:37:47 bzip2 deals especially better with text 23:38:04 lament: I don't know, I haven't done or seen good research. 23:38:19 would be nice if the images directory is included in the zip as well 23:38:52 or you could just download the one and only image from commons.wikimedia.org if anything happens 23:39:47 yes, but hopefully there will be more eventually... 23:40:25 then hopefully i can archive the images directory too, eventually 23:40:35 hehe. sure 23:40:42 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 23:45:24 i'm getting an error 1044, access denied... when using LOCK TABLES 23:45:30 -!- calamari has joined. 23:46:26 wb calamari 23:46:50 hi wooby.. lost my connection 23:46:54 * calamari checks what he missed 23:47:49 graue: so you're saying that you're not going to host the files or the html to run them? 23:48:38 no, i'm not saying that; they could go in the files archive, or in a new area 23:48:53 i am saying they should not be part of the wiki 23:49:07 graue: why not? 23:49:41 because java applets are a huge can of worms 23:49:47 in what way? 23:50:08 i for one will not be able to use them; they'll freeze my windows 98 box, and on gnu/linux they'll give me ugly messages about installing nonfree plugins 23:50:20 it's silly to junk up a page like that, when the point is information 23:50:34 the applet wouldn't be on every page 23:50:53 graue_: sounds like your db user doesn't have access rights to lock the db tables 23:50:53 it'd only be on one page 23:51:13 but why not have that page in the files archive? 23:51:29 kipple: how does that work? you need html to run the applet 23:51:37 so? 23:51:46 the files archive is accessible with HTTP 23:51:51 so if it's just a file it can't be run 23:52:03 it defeats the purpose of being an applet 23:52:09 you just put both the HTML file and the JAR in the archive 23:52:57 whouldn't it look nicer to have the wiki framework around it? 23:53:07 I don't see the big problem 23:53:17 no, it would not look nicer to make the wiki display missing plugin messages and/or freeze my browser 23:53:47 graue: umm.. java doesn't freeze my browser.. fix your browser then 23:54:20 well, that's constructive 23:54:24 calamari: He's using IE, can't fix. 23:54:43 the applet would have to be on a page of it's own anyway, so people who don't want to run applets can just avoid that page 23:54:44 the machine is a pentium 2, it's old and slow 23:54:54 kipple: it would be 23:55:19 the point is my old, slow, broken computer can still access the wiki, because the wiki is just text, just information 23:55:28 but then again, that would not be much different from an external page 23:55:29 and you'd be able to edit it just like any other wiki page, to add content about ysing the program 23:55:48 so add that content to the EsoShell article 23:56:00 the instructions and program shouldn't be on the same page 23:56:19 um, I disagree 23:56:34 * calamari had so many plans for this.. so frustrating to be blocked by ignorance 23:56:47 it's very nice to have instructions on the same page, so you can simply scroll down when you need to look at them 23:56:47 you aren't blocked 23:56:58 using an external page is not a blockade 23:57:30 here's an idea.. don't go to the EsoShell wiki page ;) 23:57:39 what if i want to read about it? 23:57:46 then read about it 23:57:57 what page do i go to to just read about it? 23:58:10 the EsoShell page 23:58:14 :) 23:58:22 anyhow... 23:58:30 which you just told me not to go to 23:58:37 it'd be nicer to have separate pages for different languages 23:58:51 it's not that hard: files archive (and hypothetical other sections of site) = stuff, wiki = descriptions of stuff 23:59:01 for exmaple, a page full of bf programs to copy and paste in while running the applet 23:59:11 then i encourage you to add a link at the bottom of each language, pointing to the convenient interpreter for that language 23:59:49 graue: you still haven't said what is so wrong about allowing a Java applet directly on the wiki