00:00:33 read access? nope, it doesn't handle permissions; files are files and must be readable by your client, that's all 00:00:34 ? esoarchive/kipple/src 00:00:34 ? esoarchive/kipple/impl/kipple1.01.zip 00:00:54 (that was from svn status) 00:00:56 do you want to add the whole src/ tree with all of its contents? 00:01:35 i just want to commit the files I added... 00:01:46 you haven't added the files yet :) 00:02:20 * pgimeno sends pm to kipple for a primer on handling svn 00:04:05 you need to use "svn add whateverfilename" on new files, and "svn mkdir someplace" to make new directories 00:05:23 I have got it now 00:05:44 though I made the directory through Samba, not svn... 00:07:11 yeah, it works if it already exists and you svn add it 00:07:27 basically that's what svn mkdir does: it creates the dir and adds it 00:08:32 thanks for the help. added some kipple just to test it 00:09:06 just be sure to update before you commit 00:09:30 oops. I have to do that as well? 00:10:14 it will avoid future problems (when overwriting files that are not up to date) 00:12:21 and please use a meaningful commit message when possible (for example: added Kipple implementation) 00:12:54 btw, i've just created a new esolang (first one in a couple of years) 00:13:02 http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/beturing/ 00:13:25 cool 00:13:46 2d tape! haha. that's cool 00:13:47 nice! 00:14:10 2D tape? that reminds me of the turmites 00:15:21 ah yeah.. i dimly remember a "turmite" program from my Amiga days... 00:16:33 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Turmite.html 00:16:34 cool 00:17:56 yeah 00:17:59 wow 00:24:08 what's the wire crossing problem? 00:24:58 does it have any resemblance to the problem of crossing wires in wireworld? 00:30:03 the wire-crossing problem is (very informally) that languages like Befunge seem to need an "#" operator, or some other operator that can jump over things. 00:30:24 otherwise your paths of execution can't cross, and you can't write some interesting programs 00:30:27 (this is all conjecture) 00:30:38 kind of like light cycles in Tron, maybe...? :) 00:31:01 i've been googling for related stuff in the past few minutes, and i found this 00:31:03 http://planetmath.org/?op=getobj&from=objects&name=PlanarGraph 00:31:04 that's why you should use 3d ;) 00:31:35 there's no problem in 3d, so what's the fun in that? :) 00:32:06 does there exist a language where you write code in 3d? 00:33:24 graph theory is fun 00:33:48 kipple, Trefunge 00:34:13 so, what kind of file format does it use? 00:36:30 text files 00:36:40 with directives that say "advance the Z dimension" 00:36:56 i don't think it's ever been implemented... maybe it has 00:37:14 it uses a single 2d text file? 00:38:09 heh 00:38:22 exarkun was working on a 3d befunge 00:38:29 somebody else has also made one 00:38:39 theres one in basic somewhere i think 00:38:48 with graphical representation 00:39:01 kipple: yes 00:39:14 befungeGL? something like that 00:39:37 glfunge 00:39:45 then it's not what I was talking about. I meant where you WRITE code in 3 dimensions (as opposed to a 2d text file) 00:39:57 I think that somebody (not me 8-D) needs to make a 2D programming language that is NOT esoteric. 00:40:13 I don't know how, I think that for one you'd have to use a spreadsheet to edit it non-esoterically. 00:41:48 kipple, make a program that edits trefunge in 3D and saves source code in a text file 00:41:57 it's just a matter of representation 00:42:25 kipple: you're talking about editors, not languages, then? 00:42:31 cpressey: how do you like my smallfuck stuff :) 00:42:53 cpressy. languages 00:43:15 where the source code is 3 dimensional 00:43:37 lament: it's quite impressive, especially the compiled output ;) 00:43:42 kipple: you have to store the source code SOMEHOW 00:43:47 sure 00:43:52 kipple: in 1'dimensional memory 00:44:08 one way could be to use multiple text files per program 00:44:22 well, text files are technically 1d, no? 00:44:35 newlines are a convention that says "increment the y dimension" 00:44:36 well, ok... 00:44:49 funge just has another convention, there are lines that say "incrememnt the z dimension" 00:44:55 ok 00:45:15 http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/4dttt.htm - is this a 2D game just because the playfield is shown in 2D? 00:46:16 anyway, thunderstorms are here so i'm going to save my computer, brb later 00:46:17 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 00:47:25 cool 00:47:30 thunderstorms 00:48:08 are cool 00:48:16 i think im finished with my music language 00:48:28 im just trying to figure out if it's any fun or not 00:48:28 -!- wooby has joined. 00:53:40 now I get what the wire crossing problem is 00:55:13 my brain was stuck thinking turmite-wise, that the state was internal to the machine rater than given by the position of the code head 00:55:45 GregorR: http://atlas.usafa.af.mil/dfcs/bios/mcc_html/raptor.html ... ? :) 00:57:25 pgimeno: hmm.. well, it's not like a turmite (not even much like befunge.) the only state (besides the contents of the playfield) is the positions of the code head and the data head 00:57:49 but the wire-crossing problem shows up in other places too, i'm sure (and they may be better places to study it) 00:57:59 like wierd, probably REVERSE 00:58:03 probably wireworld 00:58:21 except i don;t think wireworld is TC 00:58:30 no? 00:58:30 unless there have been advances since i played with it last 00:58:42 I thought it was crystal clear 00:59:04 wireworld can cope with wire crossing by using four xor gates 00:59:17 hm 00:59:20 it's been a while 00:59:22 I have designed a wire crossing with wireworld 00:59:51 yeah, they definately exist 00:59:52 http://karl.kiwi.gen.nz/CA-Wireworld.html#WW-4 01:00:32 i guess it is TC, if you can make a clock, logic gates, and registers 01:00:46 errrm 01:00:54 sans infinite tape. 01:02:29 damn 01:02:30 :) 01:08:40 kipple: there is also this: http://ryujin.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ylab/yamakaku/Visulan/ 01:08:50 (site can be VERY slow.) 01:08:56 i don't remember how it's edited, though. 01:09:10 nice example of a rewriting language, regardless 01:10:00 cpressey: btw, I havent' managed to use ALPACA (perl problems) 01:11:35 my knowledge of perl is null 01:12:39 can you run it without problems? 01:12:40 cpressey: looks interesting :) 01:13:55 pgimeno: um... i haven't tried in a while. i'll look at it in a bit. 01:14:19 i'm actually wondering if wireworld's unlimited space counts as "tape" or 01:14:22 not 01:14:45 you can make wireworld forms as big as you like... but you can make fsm's as big as you like too 01:14:49 that's about the same question as if unlimited size in smetana counts as tape or not 01:14:55 wireworld forms can't grow 01:15:03 I know 01:15:06 nor can smetana programs or beta-juliet programs 01:15:32 life, otoh, can 01:15:43 yeah 01:15:56 so i wonder what all these wonderful "turing machine in wireworld" articles are about? 01:16:13 this, for example, looks interesting: http://pages.prodigy.net/nylesheise/train_set.html 01:16:57 I think that they have an infinite wire 01:17:32 yes 01:17:47 so, "they can't grow" is no limitation 01:17:56 if your "space" looks like this: http://pages.prodigy.net/nylesheise/langton_5.gif you can make one of those Turmites 01:18:21 well, ... i'm still undecided but at least the problem seems clearer 01:18:25 i'll probably be off now 01:18:51 see y'all latere 01:18:54 later, even... 01:19:03 bye then 01:19:06 I'm off too 01:19:13 g'nite all 02:48:36 -!- graue has joined. 03:06:47 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:11:15 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:11:32 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:15:51 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 03:23:49 -!- pgimeno has joined. 03:47:07 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:20:14 pgimeno: i just tried alpaca.pl... it works for me... what part of it isn't working for you? 04:46:22 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 06:29:19 -!- wooby has quit. 06:40:10 woohoo 06:40:40 or something 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:53 heh 08:44:02 if you can have wireworld with "infinite wire" 08:44:10 you can also have a smetana program with infinite instructions 08:45:50 the only problem then is that programs won't terminate 08:45:59 you'd have to have something like "Goto step -1" to terminate your program 08:47:41 wireworld is definitely very pretty, though :) 08:48:59 http://www.quinapalus.com/wires11.html 08:49:05 pure sex 08:54:29 whoa 08:54:50 * pgimeno is amazed 08:55:21 dunno what's more technically impressive, that thing or the life turing machine 08:55:25 probably the latter 08:55:37 but they both look so amazing. 09:01:15 life turing machine? you mean Conway's Life, right? 09:01:35 cpressey: still around? 09:02:54 yeah, that thing 09:03:21 the annoying thing is that after they do something like that, it's completely pointless to do anything with wireworld (or life) :( 09:04:36 heh, yeah, almost impossible to beat 09:06:54 where have you found about Life? 09:07:10 er.. everybody knows about it? 09:07:35 ah, ok 09:08:23 I was wondering if you saw a graphic so amazing as the wireworld one 09:08:29 yes 09:08:37 http://rendell.server.org.uk/gol/tm.htm 09:11:09 whoa (again) 09:11:16 I see 09:15:40 cpressey: $ perl ../../../src/alpaca.pl redgreen.alp redgreen.pl 09:15:41 Unknown 'strict' tag(s) 'vars refs subs' at ../../../src/alpaca.pl line 19 09:15:41 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ../../../src/alpaca.pl line 19. 09:20:29 (perl 5.8.4 if that matters) 09:26:25 removing the 'use strict' line seems to work 11:07:40 -!- kipple has joined. 13:01:59 -!- wooby has joined. 13:08:26 -!- malaprop has joined. 13:11:36 -!- wooby has quit. 14:19:00 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably x-chat's fault."). 14:19:11 -!- CXI has joined. 14:28:57 -!- puzlet has joined. 14:29:21 -!- puzlet has left (?). 14:51:34 Wowsa. 14:51:40 * GregorR just watched that Wireworld go. 15:15:09 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:38:45 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:41:37 'ello 16:41:44 i'm back! 16:41:46 :) 17:13:24 Keymaker: Did you write a polygot quine? 17:13:30 shh! 17:13:33 i'm almost done! 17:13:42 i was trying to keep it as surprise 17:14:12 (and to note; i have been away from 4th till today 18:45 when i arrived on this channel today) 17:14:34 just wait ;) 17:14:54 I look forward to seeing it. 17:14:59 ok 17:31:49 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 18:50:55 phew.. 18:51:02 now there isn't much left 19:06:18 * Keymaker Programs now a program to convert some data.. 19:17:05 -!- CXI has joined. 19:18:33 -!- graue has joined. 19:19:46 * Keymaker goes to eat some pizza, will be back soon.. 19:22:11 cpressey, in the Beturing documentation, you say "...a Beturing machine is incapable of having a state transition diagram that is a planar graph." 19:22:18 shouldn't that be "that is NOT a planar graph"? 19:40:12 i think i may have just disproved the "universal Turing machines need state diagrams that are nonplanar graphs" conjecture: http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/archway/archway.txt 19:59:58 graue: yes, that's how it should read 20:01:15 and i think i agree with your conclusion... based on an outline of a smallfuck interpreter in beturing i got half-done last night before falling asleep 20:02:43 pgimeno: that's really weird... i'm using 5.005_03... 20:04:16 it's possible they changed the 'strict' module for 5.8 20:04:44 anyway, deleting it should do no harm 20:04:52 I'm afraid that's the cause 20:05:48 that's one of the reasons i don't like perl anymore :) they couldn't even bother to bump the major revision number for incompatible changes 20:11:22 seems that this would be correct syntax now: use strict vars,refs,subs (but then, a lot of warnings or errors appear) 20:13:56 thanks 20:14:18 that works for me in 5.005, weird... i guess i was just doing it wrong the whole time?!? 20:15:43 all I know about Perl is that its syntax resembles C, vars start with $ and regexps are widely used, so I'm not the right one to ask :) 20:16:46 the description "write-only language" fits... :) 20:19:09 the "esoteric programming language" article on wikipedia once listed Perl as a prominent example 20:21:08 Heh. 20:21:25 :D 20:21:42 I saw a guestbook, it was on the l33t page, and there was a field named "What esoteric languages have you used?" 20:22:13 One answer was: "Brainfuck, befunge, malbolge, perl - oh wait that's not esoteric is it?" 20:22:28 And another simply read: "English". 20:23:11 * Keymaker dies 20:23:17 nooooooo 20:23:26 * Keymaker hunts small bug 20:23:47 And speaking of different languages, I was looking through the documents for subjects you can take in the Swedish equivalent of high school. 20:24:01 hey what happened to that math language of yours? 20:24:24 The page for Programming B listed the following languages: Perl, PHP, C++, Python, Java, and other. 20:24:30 I hope other includes BF. 20:24:52 http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/mathspec.txt 20:24:57 i hope it includes XUML, Qdeql, and "math" 20:25:17 Code examples: http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/hw.math, http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/beer.math 20:25:19 are you still working on this? 20:25:26 Yes, kind of. 20:25:50 sp3tt; you're from sweden? 20:25:53 Yes. 20:25:57 ok 20:26:01 hi Keymaker, how was the bike ride? 20:26:09 not mention it :) 20:26:16 And you are from Finland. 20:26:18 it was half-success 20:26:19 yeah 20:26:24 If your hostmask isn't faked. 20:26:38 like when we were at ~30 km we were all wet because of rain 20:26:39 and cold 20:26:44 so we decided to turn 20:26:53 and did so, and got home ~1.30 am 20:27:11 and then we decided to use car instead and got to our target ~4.20 am 20:27:13 :) 20:27:17 oh 20:27:29 but there was good 60 kms.. 20:27:37 (that almost finished me) 20:28:28 Good night all. 20:28:34 'nite 20:28:52 sp3tt: nite, I'll comment about my impression later 20:29:13 Ok, it isn't finished though. 20:29:29 The interpreter can only print stuff so far >.< 20:30:00 http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/mathlang.py 20:30:23 k 20:36:26 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 20:47:58 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:10 -!- wooby has joined. 21:01:45 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 21:01:49 found the bug.. 21:03:35 Heh, I know that feeling. 21:03:42 :) 21:03:46 it'll be soon up 21:03:50 wait ~10 mins 21:15:37 rghh 21:15:41 small bug 21:15:53 takes a bit time more.. 21:25:04 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 21:26:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:30:08 :( 21:30:15 still some bug 21:30:30 rggggggghhhhhh 21:30:46 * Keymaker dives into program 21:31:30 Remember to check for underwater obstructions before diving. 21:31:38 :) 21:50:28 bug fixxed 21:50:43 i'm almost done, hopefully, this time :) 21:54:42 with that polyglot quine thingy? 21:56:08 w00000000000000000t! 21:56:11 done done done done hahahahaha 21:56:12 :) 21:56:24 i'll update bf-hacks.org now 22:04:30 here it is: 22:04:31 http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/pgq.b 22:04:46 as it says on the page, i'll try to make it shorter sometime and add more languages 22:05:43 as it says on the page as well, it's made with simple technique 22:05:44 WOw, that's crazy. DId you generate that somehow or is it by hand? 22:06:02 the other part is made by hand 22:06:03 but not the 22:06:06 data that has 22:06:12 d[i]=0x...... 22:06:30 i made a program that converts input to that form 22:06:53 Well, congrats. 22:06:53 :) 22:06:56 cheers 22:07:12 the bugs i had were something annoying stuff that i just didn't notice 22:07:33 like that there was one cell increased by two in brainfuck version and i didn't notice that 22:07:46 and other stupid stuff.. 22:07:49 :) 22:08:40 while i was away i got some idea for an esoteric programming language 22:09:02 i'll try think more about it now 22:16:10 m 22:16:11 hm 22:16:24 so i just made an esoteric language 22:16:32 what kind of? 22:16:38 not sure 22:16:41 ok 22:16:42 factorial: 22:16:42 tell more 22:16:43 5(>(1-)#1-) 22:16:43 1 # >+ ! 22:16:43 > 22:17:08 hmm 22:17:17 how does it work? 22:18:36 first 9 fibonacci numbers: 22:18:37 9(< #1-) 22:18:38 1 !#< 22:18:38 1 < + 22:19:08 -!- graue has joined. 22:19:14 hey graue 22:19:18 hey 22:19:26 check out my factorial program :) 22:19:37 5(>(1-)#1-) 22:19:37 1 # >+ ! 22:19:37 > 22:19:43 the idea is this: 22:19:55 each line controls a separate stack 22:20:21 instructions < and > access data from neighD[D[D[D[D[D[Dbouring stacks 22:20:31 neighbouring 22:20:41 that sounds clever :) 22:21:02 i'm not sure how fun it actually is 22:21:17 the idea is to use this as a base for a language built on music notation 22:21:19 so the stacks run in parallel? 22:21:32 yeah 22:21:48 < gets data from the stack above (with wraparound) 22:21:56 > gets data from the stack below (with wraparound) 22:21:58 this: 22:22:00 < 22:22:00 > 22:22:23 will add to both stacks the top value on the other swap 22:22:24 err 22:22:26 *other stack 22:22:38 oh cool 22:22:40 i.e. they're executed "simultaneously" 22:23:18 nothing gets popped though. And maybe i should change that. 22:24:55 maybe so 22:25:12 as it is, i'm not even sure how to swap top values 22:25:42 (without the use of a third stack) 22:27:24 even with the third stack it's not trivial :( 22:28:03 with the use of the third stack, swapping values in the first two: 22:28:06 #< 22:28:08 #< 22:28:09 < 22:29:04 where # means drop 22:29:19 in music notation, < is a rising third 22:29:43 and # is unison 22:31:44 http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.txt 22:31:46 http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.py 22:33:48 note that it's practically trivial to compile Brainfuck to Prelude 22:34:00 you need two voices 22:34:09 [ becomes ( in the first voice 22:34:13 ] becomes ) 22:34:25 + becomes 1+ 22:34:29 - becomes 1- 22:35:07 < becomes 22:35:09 # 22:35:09 < 22:35:26 > becomes 22:35:27 > 22:35:28 # 22:35:47 , becomes ? and . becomes ! 22:36:51 that's not good 22:37:04 if it's trivial to compile brainfuck to it, no one will write in it; they'll just write in brainfuck 22:37:16 but Prelude is a lot easier to write in 22:37:32 because you're not limited to two stacks 22:37:42 oh, okay then 22:37:44 three seems like a good number 22:37:48 for general use 22:37:56 but you can have as many as you wish 22:38:06 brainfuck is trivial to compile to C as well 22:43:00 lament: shouldn't "- pop two values, add them and subtract." be "- pop two values, subtract them and push." ? 22:43:27 hahahaha 22:43:30 yes 22:43:57 when you say "# drop last value", you mean the top of the stack, right? 22:44:00 sorry, i wrote the spec in like 15 minutes and didn't enjoy it at all 22:44:03 yes 22:44:32 yeah. writing specs is not too much fun.. 22:44:38 indeed 22:44:40 also "voice above" and "voice below" is "with wraparound 22:44:50 so if you have only two voices, < and > do the same thing 22:45:04 interesting language :) 22:45:17 and three is a convenient number of voices because each one can access both others 22:45:18 Keymaker: nice polyglot quine! 22:45:35 cheers :) 22:46:28 actually i'll probably change < and > to ^ and v 22:46:38 i like < and > 22:46:46 ^ and v make much more sense 22:46:52 yes 22:46:56 they look uglier 22:47:01 -!- ChanServ has quit (ACK! SIGSEGV!). 22:47:17 i was just vary of using v because i was contemplating string literals 22:47:24 but screw that 22:47:55 -!- ChanServ has joined. 22:47:55 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 22:48:08 how about: ^ or < and v or > 22:48:41 nah. stick to one of them 22:48:52 okay. ^ and v then 22:49:35 * lament changes the spec and the interpreter 22:50:39 does the ^ and v alter the stack above/below ,or just peek at it? 22:51:57 just peek 22:52:09 im not sure which way would be better 22:52:21 but i think just peeking encourages more cooperation between the voices 22:52:30 i.e. the other voice has to drop the value if it needs to 22:53:31 Keymaker: wow, a pretty nice quine! 22:53:50 thanks 22:54:13 tried it in both langs, it wrocks! :) 22:54:36 hehe 23:00:14 umm, the spec says "! output a character", but it outputs it as a number 23:00:58 yeah 23:01:16 change NUMERIC_INPUT to False in the interpreter 23:01:24 it's uhhh... for debugging purposes :) 23:01:43 maybe you should just add another operator.... 23:01:48 maybe it'll have both numeric and non-numeric 23:02:02 but then one of them would have to correspond to a seventh 23:02:06 and that's a bigass interval 23:02:19 huh? you lost me there.... 23:02:41 the main point of Prelude is to be a text representation of Fugue 23:02:57 which is the same language, but using music as source code 23:03:09 with different intervals corresponding to different instructions 23:03:14 that's why voices are called voices 23:03:51