00:00:00 me too 00:01:20 heh. Befunge is now in 9 categories..... 00:08:05 it's very categorical 00:20:24 isn't TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL a joke language? 00:21:06 (as in "totally unusable except as a joke") 00:21:12 no idea 00:21:39 ah, that one. 00:22:36 well, it is probably turing-complete... though perhaps not always :) 00:23:51 if it is turing complete all days, is it turing complete? 00:24:04 * kipple doesn't like the idea of separating joke languages from the rest 00:24:14 me neither 00:32:22 nite all 00:33:41 nite 03:16:17 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 03:21:15 pgimeno, how about like listing all turing-complete languages on [[Turing-complete]]? 03:24:49 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:43:04 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 07:05:20 -!- graue has joined. 07:05:43 do SMITH and Muriel count as self-modifying? 07:20:23 cpressey: hey 07:20:40 cpressey: do you want it? 07:34:52 god 07:35:10 on [[Turing complete]], smallfuck is mentioned as a minimal example of turing-complete language 07:43:54 it is 07:44:24 well no 07:44:47 i should probably explicitly state somewhere that smallfuck implementations must have a memory size limit 07:44:56 or, change my mind and allow them to be infinite. 07:46:29 probably the latter. 07:54:15 what the hell haha 07:54:16 i read through all the mailing list discussion on the subject and don't remember seeing that 07:54:16 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Ale 07:54:46 "stupid" is the term the author uses (see link) 07:55:02 i just wanted to make a page so someone could flesh it out later 07:55:15 we need a logo 07:55:25 or is that flower thing a logo 07:55:27 we need a PD Piet program to use as a logo 07:55:34 the flower thing is the mediawiki logo, so it sucks 07:55:35 PD? 07:55:40 public domain 07:55:42 ahh 07:55:55 also it should do something cool 07:56:01 yes 07:57:01 with a proper command set, a language with only one bignum should be TC 07:57:03 that would be cool 07:57:20 no 07:57:21 i mean 07:57:23 not necessarily 07:57:29 that language could simply be Brainfuck 07:57:38 and that's not cool at all 07:57:40 no it couldn't 07:57:51 it would operate on the digits of the bignum :) 07:57:51 [ only knows "0 or not-zero" 07:58:02 then it could be, yes 07:58:06 exactly 07:58:28 do you know of a graphics editor that'd be good for piet? 07:58:32 no 07:59:07 in fact, if you write one, release it as free software, because i don't know of any decent bitmap editors for working with pixels 07:59:54 hm 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:53 the only interpreter is in perl!? awww 08:05:30 you lack perl? 08:05:38 i hate perl 08:05:39 oh 08:05:40 cool 08:05:44 there's a txt2gif converter 08:05:48 excellent 08:05:49 http://www.majcher.com/code/piet/ 08:05:56 (a piet-specific one) 08:06:54 and i can't download it, it's 403 08:07:29 does the wayback machine possibly have a copy from before it became 403'd? 08:08:09 oh, okay, it's part of the release 08:08:10 great 08:08:19 http://www.majcher.com/code/piet/Releases/Piet-Interpreter-0.03.tar.gz 08:09:16 cool 08:09:46 so what would a logo program do? 08:10:54 something that it can do while looking nice 08:11:08 the fibonacci program on the piet website looks nice i think 08:12:11 you think we can get some copyright renunciation out of the guy? 08:12:38 seems likeley 08:12:43 hm 08:12:56 why does it have to be public domain anyway? 08:14:35 because there's a blanket statement that anything on the wiki is, just to avoid complicating things 08:15:20 i guess you could say the logo is not content, but if it's an esolang program, people might think otherwise 08:15:21 you think it'd make a good logo? 08:15:23 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/fibbig.gif 08:15:30 it would work 08:16:00 it's just the right size 08:16:52 i can email the guy 08:18:05 sure, go ahead 08:18:43 graue: why not use 3-clause BSD license or MIT license? 08:19:15 graue: those at least state that there is no warranty 08:23:06 those licenses don't solve the problem of you having to acknowledge, "Parts copyright (c) 2004 'Bob1233'. Parts copyright (c) 2005 'Graue', Parts copyright (c) 2005 '68.133.119.11'" etc for every nontrivial page 08:23:14 i'll add something stating that there is no warranty 08:29:14 okay, i sent the guy an email 08:31:31 by the way, what was it you found, again, about a language with a single queue being TC? 08:32:19 i made such a language (http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/qdeql/) and implied that it was TC, and cpressey is not convinced 08:33:30 i have never found nor said anything about that 08:33:47 all i did was ask you if it was really TC 08:33:53 cause i'm not convinced either 08:36:37 damn, am i confusing you with someone else in this channel? 08:36:45 someone said that 08:37:21 i guess you are 08:43:37 how stupid of me 09:03:24 man, piet is a cool idea but too painful 09:03:32 i don't feel like installing perl modules :( 09:04:04 maybe you can pay someone $50 an hour to convert it to ruby then 09:04:35 graue: how does wikipedia handle this? 09:05:12 it doesn't 09:05:39 i imagine that wikipedia itself is violating the FDL immensely just by continuing to exist 09:05:49 graue: but the ruby version would also require the same module 09:05:57 lament: convert the code in the module 09:06:14 the module is on the Sylvain guy's site 09:07:05 graue: the module is ImageMagick and isn't in Perl at all... 09:07:19 i'm just lazy, really 09:10:10 oh 09:10:40 and cheap, too 09:10:44 you know what would be awesome 09:10:50 a language that uses musical notation 09:10:57 any exist? 09:11:02 heh, yeah, that would be great 09:11:05 not to my knowledge 09:12:08 choon does'nt even come close 09:14:37 i'd be interested in a language that used natural language to control it, but in a totally unnatural way, so that any grammatically correct english sentence was a program 09:15:06 there's a research project it could be built on that analyzes sentences, "link grammar" or something like that, it's called 09:21:05 ok that's it i'm designing a music-based language 09:21:12 it's gonna be the best ever 09:22:07 programs will be polyphonic compositions in the style of Bach. 09:36:12 does atonal music crash? 09:36:35 okay, make that "potentially in the style of bach" :) 09:36:51 but they'll be polyphonic 09:37:14 that's a must, and i'm trying to figure out how to make that into a useful programming paradigm 09:37:48 is it too obvious to make each voice a thread? 09:38:08 well yeah 09:38:19 but what to do with that later? 09:38:25 there must be some incentive to use more than one thread 09:38:47 to use 2 to 4 threads at most times 09:38:53 so now your challenge is "design language that is useful for computation if, and only if, multiple threads are used" 09:39:02 the music part is solved 09:40:04 pretty much. 09:40:30 they don't have to be threads though 09:40:43 i was thinking of having some sort of assembly 09:40:47 how about if the only program state is based on which thread is running what code right now? 09:40:55 where one voice is an operation 09:41:02 and other voices are parameters 09:41:17 can that produce good music? 09:41:35 don't see why not 09:42:07 do you plan to use the tonal system? 09:42:11 but it's against the nature of polyphony to designate one thread as special 09:42:21 i.e. have one "melody" aka "operation" thread 09:42:33 yes 09:43:02 yeah, tonal system or something like that 09:43:12 fugue programming language! 09:43:13 intervals are significant rather than notes 09:43:15 puzzlet: yes 09:43:55 make enough room for expression, i.e. major and minor third in any direction is the same instruction 09:43:55 naturally i'll have to answer your language with a twelve-tone programming language 09:44:11 so i guess no, no tonal system :) 09:44:35 if you have a concept of major and minor third you are using the tonal system 09:44:54 not really 09:44:57 tonal system is like, you have major or minor. 09:45:09 not really, since they're always measured from the current note 09:45:10 the opposite of atonal system 09:45:17 there's no tonal center 09:45:43 i'm just saying, "up 3 steps or up 4 steps is the same instruction" 09:45:52 but it's based on intervals, and that is the tonal system 09:46:05 not exactly. 09:46:20 atonal system is based on intervals indeed 09:46:29 i mean either 09:47:28 the tonal system is based on interval content, whereas, for contrast, the twelve-tone system is based on interval order 09:47:53 i can't comment on the atonal system, but it would not be possible to meaningfully use the twelve-tone system in this language 09:48:05 i don't get it 09:49:18 well, that's okay 09:49:24 i don't mind programming in the tonal system 09:49:41 but the reason i'm not getting it is because you're not making any sense! 09:50:53 the reason i am ceasing my argument is because i don't believe i can explain it effectively! 09:50:57 okay 09:51:50 in the twelve-tone system, you take all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, shuffle them into a random permutation, and then add registral details by assigning them to different octaves and such 09:52:01 it's based on all twelve tones being there all the time, more or less 09:52:05 no that's serial music 09:52:26 are we calling the same thing two different names? 09:52:39 what i described exists and is called twelve-tone music 09:53:14 but calling every music other than twelve-tone music "tonal" is wrong 09:53:59 tonal music is based on tonality, the major chord. 09:54:37 and i belive that other side of the music is called "atonal", which twelve-tone music is part of 09:56:36 atonal music is actually a subset of the intersection of tonal and twelve-tone music, according to noted composer Charles Wuorinen, whose book i have just consulted on the subject 09:56:36 and beside that, atonal music includes other mechanisms like whole-tone scale music 09:57:17 Wuorinen sees "tonal" as part of "diatonic" and "12-tone" as part of "chromatic" 09:57:27 so perhaps this esolang idea is based on diatonic music, then 09:57:51 -!- sp3tt has joined. 09:58:09 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 09:58:16 -!- sp3tt has joined. 09:58:43 diatonic music is based on scale 09:59:22 graue: no 09:59:31 it is based on chromatic 09:59:37 but the idea of melody moving by interval is free from any scale, and not falls in 12-tone 09:59:41 also. 10:00:03 yeah, it's just chromatic 10:00:09 but the programmer is free to make it as tonal as he likes 10:00:42 in particular, whatever the other instructions are 10:00:44 becuase he/she can choose from major and minor 3rd interval 10:00:58 , for example. 10:01:01 i have decided to make major/minor second a "skip the next interval" instruction 10:01:41 (an instruction like that is necessary so the voice stays within some reasonable frequency range) 10:01:45 lament: do going-up and going-down indicate different instructions? 10:01:51 no, don't think so 10:02:01 good 10:02:06 which leaves room for very few instructions really 10:02:35 but that's ok since they'll have arguments 10:03:07 you say a skip the next interval instruction, how about skipping the next n intervals? 10:03:22 that's too much 10:03:26 why? 10:03:36 just make the next interval (after the skipped one) again a second 10:03:48 you can write a lot with that 10:03:56 (i just tried :)) 10:04:09 lament: how do you plan about note duration? 10:04:14 not meaningful 10:04:38 (otherwise it will be practically impossible to make it sound good) 10:06:08 dunno what storage model could work 10:06:17 perhaps each voice has its own memory or something 10:06:32 a stack... 10:11:13 what, the parameters have memory different from the operation's memory? 10:11:39 i have no clue 10:12:39 anyway good night 10:14:33 good night 10:14:35 good night 10:16:33 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 10:35:06 moin 10:35:21 we need a PD Piet program to use as a logo 10:35:56 I used the hello.png Piet program with permission from the author; he was very happy that it was used for something 10:36:49 (used in ) 10:37:18 do you know of a graphics editor that'd be good for piet? 10:37:37 maybe npiet works: http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/ 10:38:57 by the way, what was it you found, again, about a language with a single queue being TC? 10:40:25 fizzie gave this link: http://jackson.cs.miami.edu/~burt/papers/1993.1/Saq-JAIIO-2.ps 10:53:45 i got http://puzzlet.org/html/jsaheui_en.html done 10:54:58 cool 10:57:28 now I know what button to press, thanks :) 10:58:22 my pleasure 11:07:10 I find it still a bit hard to use 11:07:27 especially since I can't type Hangul 11:11:51 what was the link to the language description, again? 11:14:27 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 11:19:00 well, all I could try is Hello, world 11:23:05 what os do you use? 11:23:25 windows in this case 11:24:57 can you configure to use Korean input system? 11:25:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:25:34 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 11:26:46 -!- DMM has joined. 11:26:49 there are external Hangul input system like saenaru and ngs, but i'm worrying either of them haven't been translated into English.. 11:26:56 I'm afraid not, and even if I can, I'm afraid of doing it and not being able to return to normal 11:27:04 evening all 11:27:18 evening? familiar timezone :) 11:27:22 hi 11:27:28 Sydney :-) 11:27:33 South Korea 11:27:58 I just got an email about the esolang wiki... 11:28:25 if you use X window system, i recommend to use nabi. 11:28:25 http://nabi.kldp.net/ 11:28:25 as the Hangul input system 11:28:25 yup, lament sent it if I'm right 11:29:18 gotta go for a dinner 11:30:22 DMM: thanks for your permission to use the hellobig.png as a logo, btw 11:30:30 s/logo/image/ 11:30:59 wow, I'm still writing my reply granting permission... :-) 11:31:34 sorry, I mean here: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.png 11:31:42 that was quite a while ago 11:31:44 oh! right :-) 11:31:51 argh 11:31:58 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.php 11:36:08 by the way, I have abused the idea on your BIT language and made up Bitxtreme: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php 11:36:20 oooh 11:37:54 rofl... I like the file extension 11:38:49 actually it's a joke language to ironize about the lack of space for writing complex programs in some space-limited languages, especially Malbolge 11:39:48 heh... that's great. I like the fact you zip all four sample programs for convenience... 11:40:31 :) 11:42:52 does zip really make a 562 byte file out of those? 11:43:31 that's what it did when I compressed them 11:44:25 cool 11:49:22 btw, I'm not sure if you're aware that there's been a recent incorporation of 99bob in Chef to de 99bob page 11:49:25 s/de/the/ 11:51:24 I heard from the guy who was writing it, didn't know he'd finished 11:53:34 there are two versions actually by two different people who submitted them independently and within a few hours 11:55:50 wow, that's a nice program :-) 11:57:48 the sous-chef one 12:04:28 * DMM heads off... getting late here 12:05:12 -!- DMM has left (?). 12:16:07 Noooo... I missed David Morgan-Mar :( 12:20:15 I'm sorry, sp3tt 12:20:38 Stupid lunch... 12:23:46 I wonder what the most complex program written in shakespeare is... 12:56:19 -!- kipple has joined. 13:07:15 back. 13:07:32 maybe i could provide a graphical Hangul input system for that interpreter... 14:13:58 While totally unrelated to esoteric programming, to me this is exciting, so I shall scream it out... I IMPLEMENTED ENCRYPTION INTO DIRECTNET!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 14:14:50 what is directnet? what encryption? 14:45:52 I answered myself about directnet. 15:07:11 so, what's the status of the logo? 15:08:43 I played a bit with paint shop pro, and a some spoofs of the MediaWiki logo 15:08:49 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/esologo1.png 15:08:56 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/esologo2.png 15:08:59 -!- malaprop has joined. 15:09:23 the MediaWiki logo: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/skins/common/images/wiki.png 15:11:57 argh. "made some spoofs", i meant to say 15:16:46 kipple: apparently DMM replied to lament by email 15:17:51 I like esologo2.png more 15:19:33 put them all on one page: file://slartibartfast/rune/www/lang/logos.html 15:21:09 I like the idea of using a Piet program, but the ones I've seen so far are a bit ugly, IMHO 15:21:18 er, check that last URL :) 15:21:32 ha. sorry 15:22:00 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html 15:22:08 added two more 15:26:51 I still like the last one more than the rest 15:27:37 * kipple is reading the Piet spec... 15:29:50 seen the npiet link I've given above? 15:30:05 no 15:30:36 http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/ 15:31:21 it comes with a tcl/tk editor 15:31:51 nice :) 15:34:03 nice code gallery on that page too 15:35:07 yup 17:07:41 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]"). 17:08:28 -!- sp3tt has joined. 17:14:48 -!- comet_11 has joined. 17:15:31 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:15:38 hola 19:17:44 hola 19:19:23 здравствулте! (or so says Babelfish) 19:19:36 so yeah, DMM replied to me as i'm sure you're aware 19:19:58 pgimeno: that's strange, it's fine but one letter is misspelled 19:20:13 oh 19:20:13 can't be a grammar-based typo either 19:20:26 probably wrong dict or something 19:20:54 the program i asked DMM about to use is a logo isn't helloworld btw 19:20:59 it's the fibonacci one 19:21:11 but the npiet page says the program is broken... 19:21:43 I didn't notice that 19:21:58 http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/picture.html 19:23:02 oh, I see 19:23:20 I'm not sure what that means exactly 19:23:32 me neither 19:24:01 it seems npiet and piet reference implementation don't interpret the piet specification the same way 19:26:36 indeed that's noted and there's an example with the differences 19:27:23 (at the bottom of the page you've given) 19:28:01 quite 19:31:55 in malbolge, the discrepancies between the spec and the interpreter were resolved in favor of the interpreter 19:45:05 hm, has anybody looked at Aura? 19:46:43 it seems that all that exists is an undocumented interpreter 19:51:33 lament: yes please 19:51:40 (now i need to catch up on this log) 19:52:51 c 19:54:58 graue: re: do SMITH and Muriel count as self-modifying? ... in a loose sense, I'd say say... yes... but the sense is very loose (Muriel program need to make modified copies of themselves to do interesting stuff, and SMITH only really needs to append to itself, not (strictly) modify... 19:56:19 re one bignum... my understanding is an FSA + two counters (bignums) is TC. 19:56:41 (so maybe a rational bignum...?) 20:03:09 okay 20:03:19 http://z3.ca/~lament/smetana_sf.tar.gz 20:04:27 aura seems interesting 20:04:34 i wonder if it can possibly be useful 20:10:27 lament: ty 20:11:16 yay! 20:11:33 lament: it's in my to-look list 20:13:59 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]"). 20:14:42 -lilo/Wallops- Hmmm, check the links on ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists , perhaps congratulations are in order! 20:15:01 apparently Sarge is finally out 20:16:30 if it is, it's insanely hard to program 20:16:35 but i don't think so 20:17:00 the interpreter is a pain to read 20:17:16 it's pretty simple 20:17:51 instructions are taken by character mod 8, if I understand it correctly 20:17:55 yes 20:19:55 * pgimeno hates programs made up of just one-letter vars 20:20:37 * lament goes away 20:20:53 later 21:44:20 From:Lode Vandevenne 21:44:22 The university page will indeed be gone in a few years, too bad, it's such 21:44:22 handy free webspace. 21:44:22 Feel free to host a copy of it for preservation. Normally I'll also have my 21:44:22 own webspace one day, but not yet, so it's a good idea to make a copy. 21:44:46 * pgimeno commits his page into the svn repos 21:45:15 (Lode Vandevenne is the author of gammaplex) 22:01:33 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 22:47:04 -!- graue has joined. 22:48:14 new db backup at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/db/esolang-050606.sql.bz2 22:49:07 graue: Ah, been wanting to ask you. What's the schedule for those? Daily or weekly? And for the files repos? 22:50:23 graue: nice 22:50:31 the schedule is whenever i make them 22:50:37 about the files, what was the update frequency? 22:51:13 I thought the point of this scheme was to eliminate the possibility of losing everything because someone loses interest? How about a cron job instead? 22:51:44 malaprop: I was just about to say that ;) 22:52:16 We create this thing so that it can sort of automatically back itself up, and now we're relying on humans? No offense graue, but you are human. 22:52:54 well, i'm insulted! 22:53:11 And for dates, YYYYMMDD has the benefit of being ISO and common. 22:53:35 graue: PATHETIC FLESH-BAG!!! 22:53:41 :P 22:53:45 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:56:01 graue: Would you like a hand setting up cron jobs? 22:59:26 no thanks, i can do it 22:59:54 i'm trying to figure out how to allow anonymous svn read access so you can back up the files repo 23:01:24 Having svn read access does not allow you to recreate the repository, you'll need to take an 'svnadmin dump'. 23:02:38 I don't think that history is needed 23:03:08 If it's in svn, I want the history. I know someone will definitely end up using it. 23:04:03 well, I think it's svn just because it can't be ftp, so it's svn used as ftp 23:04:43 pgimeno: I know. But since it's in version control, it's just a matter of time until someone uses versioning. 23:05:26 maybe, but I hope not... 23:06:03 pgimeno: It'll probably happen about a day after the first person who wasn't here for the planning discussion is given access. 23:07:54 Gotta run, can pick up the discussion in ~2.5h. 23:08:07 later malaprop 23:16:23 -!- lindi- has joined. 23:22:48 the history isn 23:22:50 't needed 23:28:54 graue: I commited some files a while ago; when are they expected to show up? 23:30:00 a while ago = 1.5 h ago 23:30:29 they are expected to show up within 6.5 hours then 23:30:46 k 23:31:44 about the svn: how do I get access? anonymous read access would be nice, but I'd like write access... 23:33:15 is there a generic user account for this project, or do we get personal? 23:36:03 it's personal 23:39:28 kipple: read my private message 23:39:50 sorry. not paying attention... ;) 23:49:55 anyone should now be able to "svn co http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles/" and get everything 23:51:31 works nice :) 23:52:04 cool! 23:53:12 indeed it's accessible via browser: http://www.esolangs.org/svn/esofiles/ 23:53:37 very cool indeed 23:53:48 but if you open an HTML file it shows the source, and that doesn't have dates, filesizes... 23:54:30 yeah 23:54:32