00:04:38 I'm too tired right now to try to figure out how to do anything with sort 00:04:52 I'm off to bed, good night 00:07:37 good night 00:17:47 updated http://illegal.coffeestops.net:3703/sort.zip, fixed one regex bug 00:23:20 this now works: 00:23:20 world := "" 00:23:20 hello := "hello, " ".!" "" ? ~ 00:55:11 heh, i just realized you can trick the matcher into matching a literal ! 00:55:42 "r@!", if you can make sure there won't be an r at the beginning, will match only "!" 01:50:56 jix: True. Quick rundown: 01:51:22 A) If you put a [, { or : somewhere where there HASN'T been one, it will work just like any other. If you put one where there HAS been one, it will still be spent. 01:51:35 (That is, a : placed where there has been one will still be spent) 01:52:05 B) If a jump is to be made, but there is no matching symbol, the jump is ignored. 01:52:26 IE: in [[], if it hit that first [ and decided to jump, it wouldn't, and in []] if it hit that second ] and decided to jump, it wouldn't. 02:20:53 -!- malaprop_ has joined. 02:29:25 hey Greg, ph, what do you guys think of my sorted language innovation? 02:34:56 -!- malaprop has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:37:21 Sorry, haven't taken a look at it yet. Also, my name is Gregor ;) 02:38:15 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:43:50 eliminating all syllables but the first is a typical way of abbreviating someone's name 02:44:31 Yes, I'm well aware of that, but I personally don't like blunt names, such as one-syllable names starting and ending with the same letter ;p 02:46:24 so you are offended by the 99bob program in ORK, which uses someone named Bob as a mathematician? 02:50:15 or are you only offended when blunt names are used to address you? 02:51:26 anyway, check out the sort lang 02:51:37 i fixed all regex bugs of which i am aware 03:39:48 -!- graue_ has joined. 04:14:41 i posted some thoughts on sort at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/research/ 04:14:48 as well as an updated package 04:14:51 -!- graue_ has quit ("Leaving"). 04:27:22 I'm not offended by blunt names. 04:27:39 And if somebody wants to be called by a blunt name, I'll call them that. 04:27:41 I just prefer not to myself. 04:27:43 hey Gregor 04:27:57 as long as you're here, why not give Sort a look? 04:28:37 Sure, por que no. 04:28:46 (Please ignore my terrible Spanish :-P) 04:28:52 i don't even know what that means 04:29:18 In my happy universe where I know any Spanish, it means "Why not?" 04:33:49 cool 04:36:03 So, stack elements are a sort of "variant," that can be either a number or a string? 04:36:55 if by "variant," you mean they get automatically converted to whichever form an operator requires when the operator is used, then yes 04:37:45 Oh, OK. 04:44:23 *brain melting* 04:45:21 heh, pretty esoteric, eh? 04:45:54 Very. 04:46:00 I'm trying to wrap me brain around it. 04:46:20 I don't quite understand what triggers the program to end ... 04:46:38 when there is only one expression left 04:46:46 all expressions but one must have deleted themselves 04:46:48 OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 04:47:36 And when you create an expression with :=, what does that expression evaluate to when it gets to it? 04:48:13 That is ... 04:48:18 Not when you "create" an expression ... 04:48:23 But when one expression translates into another. 04:48:23 -!- malaprop_ has quit ("quit"). 04:48:33 translates into another? 04:49:11 an expression that is evaluated must result in exactly one value on the stack 04:49:25 that value if it is a number is converted to a string, then it becomes the new name of the expression 04:49:30 an expression that is renamed to "" is deleted 04:49:39 the number 0 converts to the string "" 04:50:09 It becomes the new NAME of the expression ... 04:50:24 (How to phrase this ... ) 04:50:59 And when it comes across that expression again (now with the new name), what does it evaluate to? 04:51:25 whatever the result of the expression is 04:51:45 the expression is unchanged, although the results of a regex searching the expression name list may be 04:51:55 So, for simple string literals, just itself, though other------- 04:51:59 I was just mentally computing that. 04:52:07 OK, thank you. 04:52:46 I think the doc could be helped a bit by explicitly defining all of the nomenclature at the top. 04:53:05 like "push", "pull", "regex", "expression"? 04:53:34 uh oh, the interpreter has another bug 04:54:18 I guess [name] := [expression] is pretty much what I was looking for, and is there. 04:54:27 So ... *cough* ... ignore me. 04:54:33 okay 04:54:47 lalala 04:55:04 hey lament 04:56:21 feel like trying a new esolang today? 04:56:30 no 04:56:51 maybe tomorrow, then 05:20:42 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:25:09 i uploaded a new package fixing clobbering 06:25:30 meaning that if an expression evaluates to the name of another existing expression, it overwrites that one 06:25:37 so you can now write hello, world like this: 06:25:41 hello := "hello, world" 06:25:45 world := "hello, world" 06:26:19 this also may make it easier to write more sophisticated programs, but it's hard to say 06:55:56 -!- graue has quit ("Are you a Schweinpenis? If so, type "I am not a Schweinpenis.""). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:33:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 08:33:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:35:16 -!- kipple has joined. 11:08:56 hm, it looks to me as if graue's language has a mechanism for converting the programas to SMETANA 11:09:14 I'm not sure though 13:16:09 -!- malaprop has joined. 13:24:46 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:33:04 -!- pgimeno has joined. 13:38:18 -!- jix has joined. 14:21:01 -!- CXI has joined. 15:20:56 -!- graue has joined. 15:28:28 hi graue 15:28:35 hello 15:29:00 i think Sort resembles Whenever a bit 15:29:21 I was wondering if it is possible to transform a SMETANA program into a Sort program 15:29:44 the ending conditions are different 15:29:54 in Sort, if it falls off the end it just goes back to the beginning 15:30:28 yes hmm... 15:30:44 you know what'd be a neat idea? 15:31:03 no, what? 15:31:22 a program to take a list of inputs and outputs, and use some kind of state-space search over all possible programs to find a program that matches the inputs and outputs 15:31:53 yeah, that would be cool 15:32:21 you could use it to duplicate a closed-source reverb effect 15:32:26 it'd be easier in BF because of its' tiny instruction set 15:32:30 give it a PCM wave before and after the effect was applied 15:32:43 CXI: How goes the regexp esolang? 15:32:52 i wrote a program once that generated BF programs at random 15:33:00 you'd type and they would do funny things 15:33:03 it was cool 15:33:03 been busy since yesterday, unfortunately 15:33:28 i have a concern about the regexp esolang 15:33:39 What's that? 15:33:41 if it uses perl for the regexp matching, doesn't that tie the language inextricably to perl? 15:34:25 I don't think so... though I suppose there are slight regex variations between engines 15:34:44 CXI: are you familiar with genetic programming? 15:34:55 maybe if that "perl compatible" regexp library really is, it would work 15:35:05 perl's regular expressions are not anything like a standard though 15:35:15 kipple: I'm quite a fan of it, but not terribly familiar 15:35:36 because it is used for what you described 15:35:47 that's more or less how the first Hello world program was written in Malbolge 15:36:16 haha 15:36:26 malbolge is a fearsome beast 15:36:30 yes, that's right :) 15:36:43 malbolge is the name of hell 15:36:58 and so appropriately named 15:37:21 I'm trying to write a 'cat' program in it 15:37:49 but that's a tough task 15:38:20 my program is already complete if the memory can be preloaded into the virtual machine; I'm now working in the initialization 15:39:08 i.e. the code that sets up the memory to be as desired, but it will be several K's long 15:39:43 it's a bit stalled right now until I finish the changes in my homepage though 15:40:25 I'm pretty sure I won't see a quine in Malbolge 15:40:32 good lord 15:40:38 Dis is a bit more tractable 15:40:58 poor Dis never really gets talked about at all 15:41:09 yeah, I wanted to change that 15:41:38 there are just a few progs ever written in Dis 15:42:01 it *might* be possible to write a (real) 99bob in dis 15:43:14 the main advantage of Dis is that instructions stay in their place, i.e. they do not change after being executed (as opposed to Malbolge) 15:43:34 I thought that was an endearing feature, personally 15:43:42 we need an article on Dis in the esolang encyclopedia 15:43:53 i've never really looked at it, so it would be nice to have an overview 15:44:07 if you can wait about one week more I can write it 15:44:15 fair enough 15:44:16 I'd like to do 15:47:17 in "useable" Malbolge, the program flow is expressed as data (jump addresses), because instructions must be at fixed positions 15:48:06 Lou Scheffer wrote an excellent article (which hooked me into Malbolge coding) 15:48:28 graue: use oniguruma for regexps 15:48:46 tell CXI that 15:48:50 he's the one making the regexp language 15:48:52 sry 15:48:58 unless you mean for Sort 15:49:13 for anything where regexps are used 15:49:14 Sort intentionally uses its own underpowered regexp implementation 15:49:27 CXI: use oniguruma for regexps 15:49:29 :P 15:49:51 you mentioned it before, but to be honest I've already written most of it in perl now anyway 15:49:55 jix, have you checked out sort? 15:50:00 no 15:50:07 why not do so? 15:50:25 it is at http://esolangs.org/research/ 15:53:14 haha 15:53:19 I want to make a uno programming language 15:53:55 flow control: reverse, skip 15:54:07 IO: draw two/draw four 15:55:00 heh, do it then 15:57:12 uno? like in the card game? 15:57:46 yeah 15:58:03 hehe. nice idea. (long time since I've played that) 16:37:11 hey kipple, you tried out Sort yet? 16:43:04 jix: So, about FYB ... 16:43:12 I realized a problem with my old programs. 16:43:23 Many of them had something like this: :@....; 16:43:44 The problem is, when that thread does the second loop, it defects again, hence editing the enemy! 16:44:05 So, *cough*, yeah, totally fubar'd code there 8-D 17:43:20 i just noticed that a FYB war ends after the 1st or 2nd bomb.. so my idea was: every player has 10 lives 17:54:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 17:55:09 The reason that it ends after the first is so that threads are a blessing and a curse. 17:55:22 They're nice because you can do more, but bad because they make you more susceptible. 17:55:30 I think having more lives would skew that balance. 17:56:54 Or at least, I can't think of a "lives" system that would not skew that balance, I don't know if you have something up your sleeves ;) 18:12:36 is there a language that uses analog memory 18:18:33 Would that not be similar to simply having floating-point memory elements? 18:24:33 no 18:24:44 memory positions are floating too... 18:24:55 +point 18:25:00 Oh, I think I sort of see what you're saying. 18:33:57 Here's a great language! 18:34:04 The only command is "add to output que" 18:34:15 Any character entered is assumed to be a parameter for this command. 18:34:20 I call this language "cat" 18:35:55 heh, already been invented 18:36:02 Damn! 18:36:14 that was discussed on lang@esoteric a few years back 18:36:15 :P 18:36:20 lol 18:36:26 the main attraction of cat is that every program is a quine 18:36:36 Heheh, that's nice. 18:37:12 Hm, the defintion for "programming language" that I have in my head requires conditionals. 18:37:25 if you add a second command to read from the output queue, you can get by like that, with no formal way of storing data 18:37:36 (you do need other commands to process the data, of course) 18:37:56 Choon works that way, its only data storage is its own past output 18:38:24 malaprop: Is HQ9+ a programming language? 18:38:43 definately not! 18:38:48 w00t 18:38:58 is Sort a programming language? 18:39:27 GregorR-L: I don't know HQ9+ 18:39:41 ...or sort. 18:39:51 HQ9+ is a parody of a programming languge :) 18:39:58 malaprop: The H command outputs "Hello World!", the Q command outputs the content of the program, the 9 command outputs 99-bottles-of-beer, the + command increments the accumulator. 18:39:59 HQ9+ is a language with four commands, H = print hello world, Q = print program's source code, 9 = print lyrics to 99 bottles of beer, + = increment the accumulator 18:40:09 Hahah, I win by several seconds :-P 18:40:11 Sort is at http://esolangs.org/research/ 18:40:17 it was not a contest 18:40:24 I'm kidding ;) 18:42:14 I would not call HQ9+ a programming language, no. But I still like it. 18:42:24 Heheh 18:43:09 Hm, I'd like to see an esolang where it's impossible to write a quine in the lang. 18:43:46 Make it incapable of outputting arbitrary characters. 18:43:47 malbolge? (I dare anyone to disprove it!) 18:43:48 Only numbers. 18:44:24 i dare anyone to write a quine in Sort! 18:44:35 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 18:45:31 (man, what's the deal here? Everyone was like, "Hey, graue, we're really excited about your esoteric language," but now that I have a working interpreter no one seems to care) 18:46:32 I still haven't wrapped my head around it enough to write anything useful :P 18:49:58 \22 didn't get translated into a " for me ... 18:50:27 Oh wait .. 18:50:30 Maybe I'm wrong ... 18:51:29 a := "a := \22" "a" "" ? ~ 18:51:29 quit := "" 18:51:42 Seems like that should output: 18:51:55 a := "a := " or something 18:52:00 Still working on it :P 18:52:40 Still working on it :P 18:52:47 Whoops, up-entered in the wrong window. 18:58:22 an expression can't find itself with a regex 18:58:27 it only searches all the other expression names 18:58:31 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh 18:58:49 I guess that makes sense, otherwise it would recurse forever :P 18:59:10 no it wouldn't, i just disabled that feature to make it esoteric :) 19:00:38 you realize, don't you, that it only searches expression names, not the expressions themselves? 19:03:37 I thought it searched the names and replaced with the expressions, but I'm realizing that that's wrong. 19:04:29 for the record, I do consider HQ9+ a programming language, just not Turing-complete 19:04:52 graue: the lack of examples makes the idea difficult to aprehend 19:05:08 to me at least 19:07:27 hm, my Spanish->English dict says "aprehender" = "seize" 19:08:36 Apprehend might be another word :P 19:09:26 -!- sp3tt has joined. 19:09:28 oops, right, sorry 19:10:10 Though seize is right too I suppose. 19:10:12 Just a strange context. 19:10:57 pgimeno, i've included all the examples i've been able to come up with 19:10:58 maybe grab would make more sense 19:11:11 it seems possible to make more sophisticated programs, but i haven't figured out how to do so yet 19:11:20 have you seen hello3.sort? it illustrates some features usefully 19:11:34 nope, I just downloaded the zip 19:12:03 get the new tar.gz from http://esolang.org/research/ 19:12:08 I'm trying to figure out how to have a decrementer ... have something like a99 := "a98", but then a98 becomes a97, etc. 19:12:10 it also fixes some bugs in the interpreter 19:12:25 well, you need at least two expressions to pull that off 19:12:40 an expression can rename only itself, but it can access only the names of others 19:13:08 graue: i care about sort.. but i need time to get an idea how to do things 19:13:14 Yeah, I figured I would need more than one, but still haven't figured out how :P 19:13:21 jix, cool 19:13:50 graue: oh, by the way, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects to voxelperfect 19:13:57 i hate this.. every day i add a new dns server to my list and the 2nd day it's down 19:14:29 pgimeno: yeah i am aware, i'm not sure if there is a way to fix that 19:14:42 (other than making it do the reverse) 19:14:53 there's an ugly way, using index.html and a refresh with a relative path 19:15:27 the HTTP spec doesn't allow refreshes with relative paths 19:15:33 yuck 19:15:39 however, i could examine the Host: header in the request 19:15:48 i was hoping for a way to do it without editing MediaWiki :) 19:15:55 in php? 19:16:05 you'd just need an index.php 19:16:23 i already do, it's from mediawiki 19:16:37 oh, dang 19:17:37 btw, when are you going to set up the database and images backup? 19:18:43 soonly 19:18:45 is there demand now? 19:19:39 well, I'm already backing up svn and waiting to start backing up the rest 19:19:51 Perhaps I'm confused, but it seems that the regex "a(.)" works bu "a(.!)" does not ... 19:20:09 ! and @ aren't allowed within groups 19:20:15 Crapsy. 19:20:17 Hmmmmm 19:21:02 i think it'll search for a literal ! if you do that, actually 19:21:13 so there is a way to search for a literal ! or @, do [!] or [@] 19:25:31 Is it possible to write a quine in Chef? XD 19:26:04 I would think so... 19:26:09 but HARD 19:27:04 btw sp3tt, is that Chef-interpreter you made available on the web somewhere? 19:27:10 Not yet... 19:27:22 It has some regexp trouble when it comes to multiple bowl.s 19:44:17 These troubles seem to have disappeared overnight :O 19:44:29 I'll write some comments and upload it... 19:44:40 great :) 19:52:22 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:52:25 grrhh.. 19:52:32 this channel is TOO active!!!!!! :p 19:52:53 logs are filled with interesting stuff about interesting new or old languages 19:53:03 i don't have time to read them nor think about them!!!!!!!!!!! 19:53:14 just read and think about Sort 19:53:20 the others can wait 19:53:47 is that some new or old? 19:56:37 new 19:56:43 i made it up two days ago 19:56:50 got the interpreter working yesterday 19:57:03 still have yet to figure out how to write anything more sophisticated than hello, world in it 19:57:13 ok 19:57:24 how it works? :) 19:59:14 it's a series of named expressions 19:59:29 at runtime, first the expressions are sorted lexically according to their names 19:59:50 then the expressions are evaluated in turn going down, and wrapping around when reaching the bottom 19:59:51 GAH. Two problems is named correctly. 20:00:11 the catch is that each expression renames itself to the value it evaluates to 20:00:20 what means 'lexically'? 20:00:22 the other catch is that this renaming is the only form of data storage 20:00:35 hmm sounds really tricky 20:00:36 the final catch is that an expression can only rename itself and can only examine other expressions' names 20:00:45 lexically means, it's sorted according to the results of strcmp() 20:00:57 that probably is not what "lexically" really means, i apologize 20:01:13 oh yeah, there's actually one more catch 20:01:30 (well, haven't used strcmp()..) 20:01:35 the program ends when only one expression is remaining, and prints out the name of that expression (that's its only form of output) 20:01:48 sounds really hard 20:01:50 an expression can delete itself by renaming itself to "", or can clobber another expression by renaming itself to that expression's name 20:02:15 the sorting is based on bytes being less than or greater, starting with the first byte 20:02:25 i.e., if you consider only capital letters, it's alphabetical 20:02:31 terminate := ".!" "" ? <- that terminates any program 20:02:48 not necessarily! 20:02:59 another expression could run in the meantime and rename itself to "terminate" 20:03:07 oh, right 20:03:13 uh 20:03:23 too hard language for me, probably 20:03:35 well, maybe you can try it 20:03:41 it's definitely too hard for me, its inventor 20:03:46 i can :) 20:03:53 but i can't get anything done probably 20:03:55 by the way, i fixed the problem on the wiki 20:04:08 nice 20:04:10 when you submit edits, it now redirects you using the proper hostname, so you can edit comfortably from http://esolangs.org 20:04:33 Wow! I just noticed that David Morgan-Mar, the creator of Chef, Piet, Whenever etc. is the author of the Irregular Webcomic! 20:05:06 ? 20:05:08 i had never heard about Irregular Webcomic until i read the wikipedia article about Mr. Morgan-Mar 20:05:12 what's that? 20:05:14 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 20:05:14 but i guess it's cool that he did something famous 20:05:42 I've been reading that comic for a while without knowing :D 20:07:10 has sort any site` 20:07:11 ? 20:07:31 not at the moment 20:07:40 where are the example? 20:07:44 or interpreters 20:07:46 i hope to rename it once i learn more about its characteristics 20:07:52 http://esolangs.org/research/ 20:07:53 :) 20:08:00 ah 20:09:30 I was thinking of a very painful esolang... Using mathematics. 20:09:55 It is partly based on beatnik, but instead of scrabble words, mathematical functions... 20:10:09 graue: I think it may fail to be turing-complete 20:10:42 A modulo operation determines which opcode a given value represents. 20:10:45 maybe it's practically, but not formally, turing-complete 20:10:45 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:10:49 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing-complete 20:11:40 are you sure that something can e.g. do a finite loop before stopping? 20:11:57 no, i am not 20:11:58 So, if the opcode for "Read from STDIN" is 3, one would have to come up with a mathematical function to return 3 at that point on the X axis XD 20:12:10 however, i do not know of a reason why that is not possible, either 20:12:48 the idea about the language that uses md5 as input sounds great 20:13:11 (although then there are more than one possible inputs) 20:13:43 a language with only one possible input would be pretty boring 20:14:02 ;) 20:14:03 i mean more than one input for one md5 20:14:05 :) 20:14:16 well, if there's an stopper like terminate := ".!" "" ? then the only way to do a loop is to insert strings before reaching it 20:14:56 sp3tt: i had the same idea! 20:15:09 hmm, so why do you have to use an expression like that? 20:15:44 this language all crazy... 20:16:15 graue: in order to terminate 20:16:20 but i have also an idea for an lazy evaluating bf like list based language.. 20:16:27 you don't need clobbering, though 20:16:39 You need an opcode to change between functions though. 20:16:42 you can make every expression but one rename itself to "" if a certain condition is met 20:16:51 Imagine how representations of programs would look! 20:17:00 this should be possible between ^ and ? 20:17:07 the language is "lossy" in the sense that no new expressions can be created; all you can aspire to is swapping 20:17:09 sp3tt no your function can have an unlimited set of variables 20:17:09 I'll try to code an interpreter for something like that this weeken. 20:17:13 Weekend* 20:17:13 and you can change them 20:17:17 Naming suggestions? 20:17:27 i want to implement it... 20:17:29 pgimeno, you can make fake variables, by adding onto the ends of names of existing expression 20:17:33 s 20:18:17 the difficulty arises only because an expression cannot look at its own name 20:18:33 in any case it's a quite unamageable beast :) 20:18:33 so you have to do something like, a renames itself to a99, which makes b rename itself to b98, which makes a rename itself to a97 20:18:59 unmanageable 20:19:19 hm, i think there is a change that would make it more manageable 20:20:04 kipple: http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/chef.py 20:20:05 if a regex has (a)! at one point, and it matches aaa, perhaps aaa could be captured instead of a 20:20:26 Has some bugs, no error reporting and it does not support stir. 20:20:31 that would make it possible for a single regex to look for "99", "4", and "", for instance 20:20:45 But it is version 0.0.1 after all :) 20:20:49 also, character classes would help a lot 20:21:01 Tell me what you think... 20:21:26 i don't think that makes anything possible that isn't now, though 20:21:29 it would just make it more manageable 20:24:43 thanks sp3tt. I've written a short chef article in the wiki. Should I link to it, or do you want to wait until a more complete version? 20:25:38 i'm going to call my language lazy-brain 20:25:45 sp3tt: so, stir and sous-chefs is all it is lacking now? 20:29:06 must go for a while.. 20:29:07 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 20:29:47 Sous-chefs work. 20:29:56 Link me to the article. 20:30:00 noce! 20:30:12 Loops are a bit buggy though... 20:30:19 nice! I mean... 20:30:20 Two Problems XD 20:30:22 anyway: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chef 20:30:23 :) 20:31:05 * kipple must install python now... 20:31:10 Thanks. Have to go now. Be back tomorrow. Esoteric for life! 20:31:12 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]"). 20:33:56 lazy-brain will rule 20:34:35 it's inspired by bf and haskell 20:35:54 -!- puzzlet has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang Preservation project info: http://tinyurl.com/d3fk5 ~ Esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. 20:38:35 I think elpp can be removed from the topic 20:41:18 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Leaving"). 20:45:08 hmm i need to change some things in my concept 20:46:32 -!- pgimeno has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. 20:47:27 -!- graue has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/. 20:47:31 even shorter 21:01:10 what's all this then? 21:01:17 smetana is NOT turing complete! 21:01:28 looks like i'm going to have to start editing this wiki thing :) 21:02:08 cpressey: lament proved otherwise 21:03:45 i can give you a proof that SMETANA programs are equivalent to FSA's, though. 21:03:51 it's actually pretty trivial 21:04:00 a SMETANA program has a finit # of states 21:04:04 yeah 21:05:03 but there's no size limit for a SMETANA program 21:05:35 there's no size limit for an FSA either 21:05:48 given a "big enough FSA" you can compute anything 21:05:57 that doesn't mean FSAs = Turing Machines 21:06:33 that's what "practical Turing completeness" referred to :) 21:07:04 I think it's just a problem on the choice of words 21:09:36 There is a size limit for an FSA: it must not have an infinite number of states. 21:12:18 Hm. Does the alphabet for a FSA need to be finite? Perhaps not. 21:15:08 speaking of FSAs, Malbolge may fail to be complete enough for performing complex tasks; it has a limit of 3^10 memory positions which may be insufficient even for the requisites of writing a countdown from e.g. 65535 to 0 (let alone a true 99bob) 21:15:11 ok, no "finite size limit" :) 21:15:27 yes, the alphabet has to be finite IIRC 21:15:51 pgimeno: but is that just an artefact of implementation? 21:16:26 I'm not sure if an infinite alphabet would make much of a difference. Perhaps it would. 21:16:47 well, it's a VM with 10 trits per register 21:17:02 the 10 trits is part of the language because rotations, one of the two operators that can be used, are 10 trits 21:18:53 every memory position holds a 10-trit machine word, and the instruction and data pointer and the accumulator are also a machine word long each 21:19:24 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:19:46 the machine words might be extended to, say, 24 trits and maybe that makes it useable 21:19:53 yeah, it might be like befunge-93 then. 21:20:10 or... no, even befunge has a stack, making it a PDA 21:20:35 what does PDA stand for? 21:20:45 (assuming it's not Personal Data Assistant) 21:20:56 Pushdown Automata 21:21:08 ah thanks 21:23:27 I wrote my language Bitxtreme as a parody on Malbolge's capabilities 21:25:15 to express with some sense of humor my doubts about it being powerful enough as to perform simple tasks 21:25:47 (with a bit of irony) 21:29:37 8) 21:31:36 I'm sorry you took it seriously, Keymaker 21:32:06 :) 21:32:21 I didn't intend to trick anyone 21:32:27 ok 21:32:41 you don't need to tell everyone i'm stupid :P 21:33:05 heh, I also didn't intend to mean that :) 21:33:16 Keymaker: don't worry. It's not a secret ;) 21:33:27 hah 21:33:36 :) 21:34:11 hmmm 21:34:20 can anyone remember the name of that esoteric language that 21:34:24 has mouse support 21:34:28 and 2d graphics 21:34:31 anyway, nice to see all the updates in the wiki today. 21:34:36 like the output is to 2d screen 21:34:49 (as pixels and shapes like triangles and circles) 21:35:20 there was even pong made in it 21:37:52 that just rings a distant bell 21:38:44 if i remember any correct it started with 'o' 21:38:49 well, doesn't help much 21:40:58 no, it starts with 'g'! 21:41:02 Gammaplex! 21:41:07 http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/gammaplex/Manual.html 21:43:02 lol, the language has a big set of instructions :D 21:43:35 I'm afraid my bell was something else 21:43:59 ok 21:47:19 that one is in danger of disappearing, btw 21:47:24 the page is by one student 21:47:34 by a student, I mean 21:53:14 i don't like it 21:53:38 an overcomplicated befunge dialect 21:53:41 -!- graue has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:53:45 yeah 21:54:39 after befunge 94 and wierd and piet, it seems there's no new ground left for 2d languages :) 21:54:50 oh and the game of life of course 21:55:01 :) 21:55:10 well, better get to 3d then.. 21:55:35 I think a saw a 4d language somewhere... 21:55:42 yeah 21:55:45 -!- graue has joined. 21:55:48 you're not the only one then i guess 21:55:58 i remember seeing something like that as well 21:57:06 it was probably befunge 21:57:41 a funge you mean? 21:58:03 i thought that befunge-like languages were called funges 21:58:12 probably befunge 21:58:12 no, I don't think it was a funge 21:58:32 okay, funge. 21:58:43 :) 21:58:49 or befunge 21:59:03 quadfunge? 21:59:24 http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/4dl.html 21:59:42 yeah, that's it 21:59:51 yeah 22:00:45 later funges are bizarrely complex 22:00:59 dunno if they allowed for more than 2d but seems likely 22:01:09 :) 22:01:38 it's amazing how much work cpressey put in later funges 22:01:46 heh 22:01:47 and i doubt anybody ever actually used them :) 22:02:03 yes 22:02:03 just look at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html 22:02:18 hah 22:02:52 seems like an attempt to make it a non-esoteric language 22:03:55 Funge-98 was mostly designed by committee (isn't it obvious? :) so I can't take entire credit :) 22:04:51 it's a language family, not a single language, technically, so of course it's a royal mess. 22:05:03 :D 22:05:06 yeah, but... why?! :) 22:05:08 it kind of maxed out at Nefunge (n-dimensional) and Chronofunge (time-travelling) 22:05:19 :) 22:05:23 lament: heh 22:05:32 that is the WRONG question to ask in this community :) 22:05:37 cpressey: did people ever write any programs fon any of those? 22:05:42 how would time travelling work in language? 22:05:59 lament: they were never specified fully or implemented, so i imagine, no 22:06:02 * lament thinks of continuations 22:06:07 Keymaker: painfully 22:06:12 yeah 22:06:13 yeah, continuations kind of 22:06:15 i can see that 22:06:19 store the state of the program at every step 22:06:27 then when you travel back in time, restore it 22:06:38 so, continuations without returning anything? 22:06:42 seems horribly useful :) 22:06:59 it's the time travelling to the future that we never quite modelled :) 22:07:09 :) 22:07:52 hmm 22:07:55 shouldn't be too hard! 22:08:29 well, probably not unless the language has input 22:08:38 while (year < 2100); 22:09:10 well, any instruction implicitly travels to the future 22:09:22 at an alarmingly fast rate of one second per second 22:09:31 hehe 22:10:08 ok. how about letting the interpreter optimize it by altering the system clock instead? ;) 22:10:13 hey! i got an idea: program language that has one bit as it's memory, but it can be accessed at different times 22:10:42 hmmmmm 22:10:45 neat! (as long as you can move back and forward in time) 22:10:52 and since future is uncertain, the future bit, along with all the ones before it would be randomized 22:10:58 so the future couldn't be predicted 22:11:14 hmm 22:11:24 in Choon you can access the past 22:11:49 it has one 'register' and you can access its value at any past point 22:12:17 so, does this mean somebody used time travelling and stole my idea? 22:12:32 no 22:12:38 as you said, time travelling to the future isn't possible 22:12:38 ah good :) 22:12:43 well, it wasn't a one-bit register, and choon had other things as well 22:12:54 yeah, so i think i can still use it 22:12:56 good 22:12:58 hahaha 22:13:47 besides nobody knows about choon 22:13:56 yeah 22:13:57 it's on the wiki, everyone will know soon 22:13:59 and it wasn't the key feature of choon 22:14:05 oh, so that's how wiki works 22:14:35 but seriously, since i hadn't idea about that and it isn't totally same idea, so i can't see a problem if i use this idea 22:14:46 indeed, there is no problem whatsoever 22:14:46 as well, many esolangs share same features 22:14:58 but this will be probably much different than any choon 22:15:08 now i'll try to think with brain 22:15:30 the key feature of choon is sound output 22:15:34 nobody cares about its other features 22:16:30 ok.. lazy-brain specs are complete (in my head) 22:17:04 lazy brain??? 22:17:09 now write them down before you forget 22:17:11 how what 22:17:36 lazy-brain is brainfuck with functions,lists and lazy evaluation 22:17:52 how!?? 22:18:30 well, one could code those extras with normal brainfuck :p 22:19:05 you could code a c compiler in smallfuck+io extension 22:19:24 yes 22:19:30 that would be neat indeed 22:19:32 :) 22:19:41 and notice i was only joking, 22:19:43 that would be grotesque 22:19:49 i'm waiting to see your work now 22:19:52 sounds fun 22:19:56 it would be neat to write anything in smallfuck 22:19:59 (without cheating) 22:20:07 cheating? 22:20:13 compiling brainfuck code to smallfuck 22:20:16 yeah 22:20:18 no 22:20:21 that's not allowed! 22:20:53 i'll write something it when i have time 22:21:50 jix: so what about this lazybrain thing! 22:22:07 lament: wait.. i post an example 22:22:16 cool 22:22:24 it doesn't shows all features.. just lists and functions 22:23:15 ok 22:24:54 Today I'm going to release a new version of FYB with a better spec (Thanks jix for telling me what things needed to be added) and more verbose output when verbose is enabled. 22:25:16 http://rafb.net/paste/results/cY9zp019.html 22:25:31 should print ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 22:27:05 wait no.. updated specs in my head 22:27:07 well, I'm going to sleep, so you guys don't flood up the log while I'm away, ok? ;) 22:27:13 ateoh 22:27:13 aoeu 22:27:13 ho 22:27:14 qrcjkgx 22:27:15 jqkrcgx 22:27:17 .ptnhoe 22:27:20 gcfaoeu 22:27:22 heheh 22:27:22 qfxkglcf 22:27:23 lament: while he's away! 22:27:30 oh, oops 22:27:34 ;) 22:27:43 i'm too impatient :( 22:27:48 g'nite all 22:28:07 gn8 22:29:02 g'nite 22:29:07 bye 22:29:08 nite 22:30:17 http://rafb.net/paste/results/pzwMJM37.html 22:32:08 its: upto a b = (a:if a==b EMPTY else upto a+1 b) 22:50:56 hmm i need to rethink some things for lazy brain 22:51:04 g'nite 22:51:08 ok 22:52:04 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 22:52:53 hmmm 22:53:24 i think i'll watch some movie 22:53:36 'nite 22:53:42 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").