2005-05-01: 05:23:23 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:26:13 -!- mtve has joined. 10:31:08 -!- kipple has joined. 14:37:18 -!- pgimeno has joined. 14:37:40 hello! 14:38:11 so it's not just a tale... this channel does actually exist 14:48:43 cpressey: just curious, will the Cat's Eye pages content include a discussion on the several languages and paradigms, as the original did? 15:36:59 damnit, I want to write a debugger for HQ9+ but the specs do not mention the initial value nor the limit value for the accumulator 15:38:17 is it supposed to be run in a 32-bit binary computer? 15:40:48 hehe 15:44:10 so many broken specs out there... how is one supposed to debug a HQ9+ program if he can't even know the current value of the accumulator? 15:47:22 I don't know if it's customary to introduce oneself here, anyway I'm Pedro Gimeno from Spain and I'm a esoteric languages fan - my current project is a Malbolge program that copies input to output AND stops on EOF 15:47:42 a esoteric -> an esoteric 15:48:08 hello. and how do you define EOF? 15:48:41 EOF as read from standard input comes in as the number 59048 in Malbolge 15:49:19 ah yep. 15:49:33 so far nobody has succeeded in writing a Malbolge program that does a conditional jump in Malbolge, that's what I'm trying now 15:50:16 interesting. 15:52:31 I'm actually using many of Lou Scheffer's directions 15:55:26 but there are so many caveats he doesn't mention 16:14:15 I've so far written a Malbolge debugger in Python and a cat program in Malbolge which does not stop on EOF - if someone's interested I can post it on the web 16:14:52 there was such program already afair, was it yours? 16:15:41 ah, by Lou Scheffer indeed 16:15:58 no, but Lou Scheffer's one cheats 16:16:03 it uses >127 chars 16:16:06 mine doesn't 16:16:58 sure, post it somewhere. btw it seems the server with your homepage does not respond. 16:17:28 hm, which one? I migrated it somewhere else not long ago 16:17:47 you're right 16:18:06 www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/ 16:18:40 I suppose it will be back online soon 16:18:58 no problem, there is a google cache. 16:21:13 http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/mbd.py <-- Malbolge debugger 16:21:31 http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/catnoeof.mb <-- CAT program which does not consider EOF 16:23:12 i guess Lou's cat does not understand EOF as well? 16:23:28 it does exactly the same as this, except for the >127 chars 16:28:45 post it to esoteric maillist 16:29:42 do you think it will be of interest there? 16:30:28 btw, formauri.es is back online; it was probably on mainteinance or something 16:31:07 the list was dead quite a long time, any letter could resurrect it :) 16:31:38 I don't hold any esolang stuff in there so far; I was about to write a page dedicated to Malbolge as the result of working on this 16:31:59 I'm afraid of mailinglists (too much time consumed) 16:33:21 time? there were only two mails this year. irc consumes much more time. 16:33:41 hehe 16:33:52 ok, where do I subscribe? 16:36:33 echo subscribe lang | mail listar@esoteric.sange.fi 16:38:48 thanks 16:45:52 done 16:46:55 great, it works. also i've found a bug in my interpreter :) 16:47:56 that's not surprising; the reference interpreter is already quite buggy 16:48:31 they are all damned :P 16:48:38 :) 19:08:00 does someone have the Rube and Rube II distributions? 19:09:54 I could only recover the Rube 1.02 C source, examples and docs from the Wayback machine 19:25:10 http://web.archive.org/web/20020601172059/www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/alpaca/redgreen/index.html ? 19:26:14 http://www.jaapan.de/en/myprg.php?page=progs2 19:30:23 oh! thanks 19:37:06 oh, apparently RedGreen is included in the Alpaca distribution 2005-05-02: 04:40:20 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:46:11 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:15:11 -!- kipple has joined. 21:27:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2005-05-03: 02:56:58 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:57:28 Does anybody want to try out my combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars? Essentially, you have two BrainFuckish programs running concurrently, and their data space is the opponent's program space. 02:57:41 The objective being to crash the opponent. 03:13:55 -!- rollman has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:15:19 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:36:58 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:48:50 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:11:13 -!- kipple has joined. 13:38:09 -!- cmeme has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:38:09 -!- fizzie has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:38:09 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:38:09 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:38:09 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:38:09 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:39:41 -!- kipple has joined. 13:39:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:39:41 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:39:41 -!- cpressey has joined. 13:39:41 -!- Taaus has joined. 13:39:41 -!- lindi- has joined. 14:09:08 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:37:33 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:40:19 GregorG; interesting idea 15:40:50 do you have the language specification uploaded anywhere as txt, because sourceforge board removes spaces 15:41:05 as well; sounds pretty cool pgimeno! 15:41:43 if you have time to create a page dedicated for malbolge it would be cool 15:41:52 i don't understand anything about that language 15:42:24 and it would be nice to read more about it. 16:26:03 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 17:03:52 oh damn 17:04:56 * pgimeno speaks to the log 17:05:44 what happened? 17:06:10 no big deal, just that I couldn't speak to Keymaker before he left 17:11:38 Keymaker: I'm still on it, but my page won't be dedicated to the language itself; the excellent article in Wikipedia already has a good description on that. I'm just working on trying to let the language be useable to some extent. 22:09:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:09:34 Ahh, good ol' malbolge. It's like killing yourself ... only more painful :-P 22:10:33 Does anyone have anywhere appropriate for me to upload FYB? It's not big, but I'd really rather not upload it to one of my unrelated SF projects..... 22:16:17 Wee-ell, I could keep it on befunge.org, but that place doesn't have any 99% availability guarantees, and there's.. well, no front page to advertise it on. Also, access (for updates and the like) to it a bit tricky, I have this http://gehennom.org/doc/knock/ thing there. 22:26:10 Hmm. That's actually pretty damn cool 22:28:21 I'm sure I could get knock working, it doesn't seem that complex (run knocker, log in within 30 secs). And I certainly wouldn't need to advertize it there *shrugs* 22:34:41 Hmn, well, if intermittent network problems ("whoops, our student village network went down") aren't an obstacle, I could create a place for it. I'd just need an RSA (or DSA) public key in OpenSSH (or PuTTY) format, the sshd here only accepts public key authentication. Then you could use sftp/scp for file transfer. (A shell script of 'knocker ; sftp [blah]' makes it even quite painless.) 2005-05-04: 02:04:37 -!- rollman has joined. 02:22:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:34:59 -!- heatsink has joined. 04:40:56 Hoopla! ^_^ http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ 04:42:29 Anybody want to challenge me at Befunge? :) 04:42:34 Hmm. 04:42:40 * GregorR needs to read before he hits enter. 04:42:47 Anybody want to challenge me at FukYorBrane? :) 04:44:06 I'll give it a go. 04:44:28 Actually, I should read this README first. 04:45:13 Definitely ;) 04:45:25 Not the one on the forum, I've changed it a bit >_> 04:47:41 ok... 04:51:34 a command greater than 16 is a NOP? 04:51:52 Yes, it loops. 04:51:54 16 + 1 = 0 04:52:07 weird, base 17 arithmetic 04:52:14 >:) 04:52:28 Also made it possible to have no decrement. 04:52:33 Because decrementing is for pussies. 04:53:00 I refer to, of course, weak or feeble-minded people, no female genetalia. 04:53:51 it makes for slow code though 04:53:57 okay, let's see what I can do. 04:54:33 The slow code is part of the idea - it takes a long time to do complex logical operations, so the other program has a chance to do quick evil things. 04:54:42 It balanced out simple-vs-complex a bit. 04:55:01 I've spent WAY too much time on design in this "language" :-P 05:01:13 If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop? 05:02:17 No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning. 05:02:25 So eventually one would find the other pointer. 05:02:33 Plus, it won't go more than 10,000,000 ticks. 05:03:03 Both pointers are moving simultaneously. I'd like to know if it's possible that they will always miss each other. 05:03:53 { checks if program As data pointer is on top of program Bs program pointer. Program Bs program pointer is just going in a tiny loop, it's not constantly moving. 05:04:05 It's feasable, it could be like this: 05:04:11 Hmm, how to represent this... 05:04:47 {>} {>} {>} {>} 05:04:47 d d d d 05:04:47 p p p p 05:05:05 But I don't think that would work, since the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer. 05:05:32 In my twisted mind that's a Matrix scene :-P 05:05:38 :D 05:07:33 Hmm, I should have mentioned that in the README. 05:08:07 One of the principles behind FYB is that the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer it's chasing, because it will take at least three commands to move the data pointer with any sort of logic. 05:09:04 ok 05:10:49 * GregorR is so afraid that you're going to quickly write a program that will whoop all my programs' arses :-P 05:14:43 mebbe. Dunno. 05:20:30 -!- heatsink has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:35 -!- rollman has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- fizzie has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:37 -!- cmeme has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:37 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:37 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:21:33 -!- heatsink has joined. 05:21:33 -!- rollman has joined. 05:21:33 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:21:33 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:21:33 -!- cpressey has joined. 05:21:33 -!- Taaus has joined. 05:21:33 -!- lindi- has joined. 05:21:56 -!- calamari has joined. 05:29:22 I beat mangler, but lose to logicex 05:29:47 I reinvented your trick of a one-time-through thread at the beginning of the program. 05:31:13 Since I use that trick in every single one, I don't think it matters ;-P 05:31:22 Unless by "reinvented" you mean "made significantly better" 05:31:31 logicex is my trophy *shrugs* 05:31:50 I'd also try findAndDestroy, though with the one-time-through-thread at the beginning it ought to be no problem. 05:32:39 is defect status per thread? 05:32:56 Yes 05:33:04 ah. 05:33:26 Hmmmmmm, just noticed something that may be a bug... 05:33:28 My one time through impl is a little bit simpler, just a few [+]s 05:34:01 When you fork, it ought to gain the parent-process' defect status... 05:34:05 But I don't think that it is... 05:34:07 *checks* 05:34:29 findanddestroy won. 05:34:52 Then there's probably something snarky about your once-through thread. 05:35:00 That's designed to keep findAndDestroy busy 05:35:10 Oop, I indeed screwed up that inheritance... 05:35:13 *fixfixfix* 05:37:28 a0.5 released with that fix :-P 05:37:39 :) 05:37:48 One line difference :-P 05:40:49 well, was fun. I'm off now. 05:40:56 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 06:27:52 -!- bells6003 has joined. 06:28:42 -!- bells6003 has left (?). 07:05:46 whatcha playing? 07:14:13 FukYorBrane :) 07:14:25 It's a combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars. 07:14:30 See http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ 07:15:11 haha cool idea.. corewars is an oldie but goodie 07:25:24 Yeah, a friend introduced me to it and I thought I could sort of one-up the evil :-P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:34:00 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:16:55 If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop? 10:16:55 No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning. 10:17:27 I was wondering... what about each program running in the opposite direction to the other? 12:49:19 -!- kipple has joined. 15:50:57 When you < past the beginning, it does NOT go to the end. 15:51:00 Only > loops 15:51:41 If < looped, then <[+]+++++++++++++++! would be the perfect bomb - you're 100% guaranteed to hit the last command. 15:54:18 my idea (or better my random thought) was that > increments for one of the programs and decrements for the other 15:55:15 and the code pointer increases for one of the programs and decreases for the other 15:55:37 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, like one program actually runs in reverse. 15:55:50 I don't have a mirror command :-P 15:56:09 hehe 15:56:32 no, the idea is to confront them, not to use a mirror command 15:57:22 So it sticks the two chunks of code at opposite ends of the same program space and they go towards eachother? (Or still different program space?) 15:58:17 yeah, but totally transparently (i.e. no program knows if it's going in the forward or reverse direction) 15:58:29 Of course 15:58:41 just a crazy idea, anyway 15:58:59 You are totally free to implement it ;) 15:59:13 hehe 15:59:31 I'm already busy with my malbolge 'cat' 15:59:47 Yeah, malbolge can keep you busy all right X-D 16:00:11 I've managed to get it working by preloading the memory; now I need to set that memory up via an initialization routine 16:00:43 that's actually even harder 16:01:34 * pgimeno returns to malbolging 16:26:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:05:58 Fnur... befunge.org (and thus FYB, too) will be offline for a few minutes (I hope) now, as I install a third NIC to the router box. 17:07:53 -!- fizzie has quit ("(switching NICs.)"). 17:31:57 -!- fizzie has joined. 18:04:07 -!- puzlet has joined. 18:04:11 -!- puzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:06:50 -!- puzlet has joined. 18:06:52 -!- puzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:11:24 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:29:30 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:29:36 hi 18:29:45 hmm, it's crowded here today :) 18:33:41 pgimeno: ok 18:49:16 hi Keymaker 18:50:46 hi 18:50:56 Hi all :) 18:50:58 (sorry about delay, i wasn't in front of computer) 18:50:59 hi 18:51:28 no prob, I wasn't either 18:51:33 :) 18:51:37 Anybody beat my FYB logicex program yet? :-P 18:51:55 i guess not 18:51:57 :) 18:52:09 It helps to be the one who wrote the language :-P 18:52:17 yeah 18:52:29 at least sometimes (like in malbolge ;)) 18:52:34 X-D 18:52:48 It also helps to simply not be malbolge ;) 18:53:00 hehe 18:53:09 Dis is not so evilish 18:53:16 what's that? 18:53:23 haven't heard of that 18:53:44 Dis is a language designed by Ben Olmstead too, seeing that Malbolge succeeded just too much in being unuseable 18:54:02 heh 18:54:09 Dis is also the name of the virtual machine within the Inferno computer operating system. Dis was designed to execute programs written in the programming language Limbo. 18:54:18 Thank you Wikipedia! :-P 18:54:21 yep, that too :) 18:54:47 Back to writing a formal report about fake things I don't care about. 18:54:58 heh, good luck 18:55:34 :) 18:55:46 is there any info about dis anywhere? 18:55:58 sample programs? language info? 18:57:49 well, there's the old page by Ben in the web archive 18:58:04 other than that, it's not very popular 18:58:25 basically it's the same as Malbolge but removing the encryption and self-modification 18:58:58 Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame 18:59:03 Where's the pain? 18:59:07 hehe 18:59:31 well, it still has a program counter and a data conter, both being auto-increased 18:59:38 rgh 18:59:43 not my taste :) 18:59:46 hehe 18:59:56 only for masochists like me :P 19:00:00 :) 19:00:36 i'm brainfuck programmed 19:00:42 lol 19:00:46 i mean programmer 19:00:49 I've also tasted BF, it rocks! 19:00:53 indeed 19:01:17 I've written an esoteric languages article in spanish, I have a half-translation somewhere... 19:01:25 ok 19:01:31 BF is the "star" of the article 19:01:36 :) 19:01:42 brainfuck is just simply so cool 19:01:50 it's because it has everyting 19:01:55 I've also written an optimizing interpreter 19:01:58 in eight powerful instructions 19:02:04 that's good :) 19:02:14 it runs fairly fast 19:02:28 BF is really quite interesting. It's about the most "pure" example of a turing machine. 19:02:33 it's programming on so simple level, i love the instructions :) 19:02:42 yeah 19:03:00 I once made a non-rule-checking checkers game in BF. 19:03:07 hmm 19:03:10 what that game is? 19:03:17 oh, optimizing interpreter plus debugger, I must add 19:03:31 Well, it just had a board, and the user just said "move this piece there" 19:03:38 It didn't verify that anything was done legally :-P 19:03:43 yeah 19:03:47 but what is chekers game? 19:04:06 Ohhhhhhhhh. Hmm. Wikipedia to the rescue I think....... 19:04:11 :) 19:04:38 Does "Draughts" ring a bell? 19:04:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkers 19:04:44 nope 19:05:02 but i recognize the game 19:05:08 haven't played nor know rules though 19:05:31 Hmm 19:05:31 a checkers game in BF? 19:05:40 A very limited checkers game in BF. 19:05:45 And I cheated and used a C preprocessor. 19:05:46 wow 19:06:01 hehe, well, some tricks can be used 19:06:07 :-P 19:06:23 Anyway, my harddisk crashed so it's lost :'( 19:06:27 I have a printout somewhere X-D 19:06:30 damn 19:06:37 hmm' 19:06:43 i think i could code a game like that 19:06:48 if i'd learn the rules 19:06:54 heh, it would be cool if it appeared as a type-in program in a magazine :P 19:07:01 :) 19:07:03 It wasn't so much challenging as incredibly mind-numningly painful *shrugs* 19:07:13 yeah 19:09:25 here's my article in English (the translation is still preliminary; needs some work, and some parts still need to be translated): http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/EsotericLanguages.html 19:09:51 the optimizing interpreter/debugger was written as a companion for that article; it's linked somewhere 19:09:51 i'll take a look, seems interesting :) 19:09:57 ok 19:10:38 I'd like a debugger 8-D 19:10:49 for your FYB? 19:11:54 No, for BF ;) 19:11:57 direct link to the debugger: http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/files/brfd10.zip 19:12:01 there you have :) 19:12:07 Hoopla :) 19:13:17 Ooooooh, let's see if I can find this....... 19:13:40 I made a 2D language (a la PATH) that had only two operations that were overloaded by direction...... 19:13:47 wow 19:14:09 that seems interesting :) 19:14:21 indeed 19:14:22 (about bf interpreters; there are thousands of them!!!!) 19:14:28 lol, true fact. 19:14:31 I've written one :-P 19:15:09 I don't use it though, I just wrote it for kicks. 19:15:17 heh, every man and his dog's BF interpreter 19:15:18 yah 19:15:36 if I want to test simple code I usually look for one in JS 19:15:52 HEY, I've still got my code 8-D 19:15:58 For 2l that is 19:16:00 coolio 19:16:13 hmm 19:16:21 Mind if I paste the code to make an H (8 lines) 19:16:28 go ahead!! 19:16:29 I don't 19:16:33 ##################################+ 19:16:33 +# 19:16:33 *#***********************************************************************+ 19:16:33 *# * 19:16:33 +## # 19:16:35 + # 19:16:37 *# 19:16:39 + 19:16:41 Hmm, wrapped a bit. 19:16:52 there's three instructions 19:16:56 what do they do? 19:17:04 (looks pretty interesting though!) 19:17:06 # isn't an instruction, it's just my way of remembering where I am X-D 19:17:07 I count four 19:17:10 ah 19:17:13 oh 19:17:17 * and + are the instructions 19:17:24 ok 19:17:26 I wrote a bf interpreter when I couldn't find one with a working single-step mode. :p 19:17:28 a space is a nop, then? 19:17:35 Yeah 19:17:41 (And one in scheme when I had nothing to do.) 19:17:41 Like BF, anything that isn't a command is a comment 19:17:53 ok 19:17:59 interesting looking language 19:18:03 * = all stack and IO operations, + = branch 19:18:05 do you have language specification anywhere? 19:18:13 Possibly, lesse... 19:19:00 oh, in the article I propose a BF challenge (which can be split into three): write the shortest possible BF code which stores the number 111 in a memory position 19:20:10 that number is deliberately outside of Franz Faase's table (of course) 19:20:20 i'll try that soon! 19:20:32 (must go now for a while, someone else wants to use this computer) 19:20:37 oh ok 19:20:43 I can't find the spec, but I can rewrite it. 19:20:50 ok 19:20:55 bye for a while 19:20:55 nice if you do, GregorR-L 19:21:01 later Keymaker 19:21:45 damn, I didn't provide a license for brfd... 19:22:48 let's say it's public domain 19:25:16 oh, brfd broke an ANSI C standard regarding the length of a string constant (the help text of the debugger was too long) 19:32:29 Darn, I don't think this is my latest revision of 2L ... damn my hard disk failure >_O 19:34:30 oh, such a pity 19:34:49 anyway, a spec would do 19:35:57 is it Whirl-like? does it have a wheel of opcodes? 19:36:04 No 19:36:14 The op it runs depends on the direction of the program flow. 19:36:30 oh, I understand 19:37:43 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/2l/README 19:38:08 If that logic tree is to totally random to decipher, tell me, I might be able to change it around a bit :-P 19:39:01 I even had a 2l compiler before my HD crash :( 19:39:08 But, there is an interpreter. 19:39:11 And that's something. 19:39:54 indeed 19:40:51 BTW, 2L stands for "The 2 Language" 19:44:05 I'd say it has two symbols rather than two operations 19:44:52 BrainFuck (and 2l, apparently) operate on a tape, not a stack. A stack would be a FIFO structure. Other than that, looks like a language I wouldn't want to _have_ to use for some real project. :) 19:44:59 OH. 19:45:06 lol, wording = me not smart 19:45:37 a stack would be a LIFO ;) 19:45:46 :-P 19:45:50 Nnngh. Yes. 19:45:53 Not a queue. 19:46:58 well, it has that amazing simplicity that makes up a funny esoteric language :) 19:47:13 I like it 19:47:40 :) 19:47:51 I'd like to see a stable homepage for it 19:48:04 You got one to offer? ;) 19:48:11 more or less :) 19:48:29 You #esoteric people are so nice 8-D 19:48:54 I have to consult it, but I can't give you write access, I just can post your page and maybe your changes 19:49:27 I've seen so many esoteric language pages being lost 19:49:52 (README updated) 19:50:27 * pgimeno updates 19:50:54 Just changed stack to tape and operation to symbol 19:51:29 I suspect a Hello World will be huge... 19:51:36 It was four pages printed out. 19:51:43 It's on the wall of my cubicle... 19:51:51 Cubical? However you spell that. 19:52:08 cubicle looks right 19:52:13 neat :) 19:52:35 I have a board on my wall that says "BEWARE OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING" and has that, some BF and some FYB posted :-P 19:52:52 heh, cool 19:53:17 does anyone know something about BLANK? is it 2D? 19:54:00 I'm trying to classify my bookmarks 19:54:21 sort, even 19:54:54 Unsure *shrugs* 19:55:14 GregorR-L: in about one hour I can tell you if I can host your 2L page 19:55:58 Iirc blank wasn't 2d. 19:56:10 Doesn't look like it's 2D, yeah. 19:56:19 Well, I'm off to eat lunch. 19:56:20 BBIAB 19:56:31 later GregorR-L 19:56:31 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 19:57:00 fizzie: I haven't read the description thoroughly, but I've read this: "Blank is a combination of Befunge, False, and Brainf*ck,[...]" 19:57:29 I wondered if the befungity came from being 2D 19:58:51 ah 19:58:59 back finally 19:59:01 re, Keymaker 19:59:21 I don't remember anything really befungey about blank, but I have to admit I don't remember any details about the language. 19:59:44 if you're sure it's not 2D, that's enough for me, thanks 20:00:13 for the sake of simplicity there should be language using only space and new-line :) 20:00:35 or maybe not 20:00:49 that's Whitespace, not to be confused with Blank :) 20:01:48 ah so there's two? 20:01:58 i always thought there was just one, never noticed that :) 20:02:06 Blank is not about spaces, I think 20:02:24 ok 20:04:30 I think the befungey parts of blank are its stack-basedness, plus the instruction set is befunge-inspired. The program sits in a one-dimensional ring, however. 20:05:42 ohic 20:06:09 i gotta ask GregorR-L if i can continue his 2l 20:06:11 idea 20:06:15 a bit 20:06:24 i'd have some plans for it 20:06:32 but not in the same form 20:06:37 or well 20:06:57 i mean with that that i would change the language a bit and its name as well 20:07:30 yeah, I agree it could be better 20:09:07 the problem with Blank is that there's no example in the web pages to figure out what it looks like... well, the description has some snippets but not enough as to get an idea 20:09:36 * pgimeno takes a look at the distribution 20:10:14 oh, there are a few examples there 20:14:47 * pgimeno slaps forehead 20:15:01 I should have looked in www.99-bottles-of-beer.net 20:17:10 that is really fascinating site :) 20:17:21 by the way, iirc it has that for malbolge as well 20:17:37 that probably means someone has managed to make some loop stuff or something? 20:19:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (No route to host). 20:19:15 nooo 20:19:26 it is just a printf | gzip | uuencode 20:19:26 According to http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.html it just prints the correct string, does not use a loop. 20:19:46 no way 20:19:50 ok 20:20:19 the day I see a true 99 Bottles of Beer in Malbolge... 20:20:21 then there's "nothing special" :) 20:20:37 it's fairly easy to make it spit whatever text 20:20:48 how? 20:21:08 you just rotate and op like crazy 20:21:34 i'm not sure how.. 20:22:12 well, if you normalize the 99BoB you can see that it just performs about one rotate and two ops per character 20:22:54 the canonical Malbolge interpreter has the "feature"(?) of the output being modulo 256 20:23:07 which is quite against the spirit of Malbolge, btw 20:23:13 heh 20:23:28 it should be modulo 243 if the CPU has trinary pins 20:24:36 if you prepare a memory area adequately, a rotate followed by an op or two gets the correct character 20:25:36 that's theory, though; I haven't tried myself 20:26:24 :) 20:26:31 I'm now concentrated in getting the memory contents set up as I want them 20:26:39 not so easy as printing characters 20:27:26 at least I already got the main loop working (but as it is now, I need to preload the memory) 20:29:16 too genius-talk for me.. :) 20:29:18 anyways; 20:29:25 about getting 111 to some cell 20:29:35 in this code i assumed 20:30:02 the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended 20:30:09 ++++[>++++<-]>[<+++++++>-]<- 20:30:27 i'll try to make a shorter way 20:32:27 there are three categories 20:32:39 in what? 20:32:43 one: leave the pointer in the same cell 20:32:49 ah 20:32:54 two: don't leave the pointer in the same cell 20:33:14 three: assume a modulo-256 interpreter where -1 = 255 20:33:21 i see 20:33:37 the code must start at position 0 20:33:40 i'd outrule that category three immediately 20:33:53 :) 20:34:00 it allows far shorter programs 20:34:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:34:24 I got one in 13 instructions 20:34:30 wow 20:34:34 that is nice 20:34:36 but 20:34:40 err 20:34:42 17 that is 20:34:59 Anybody want to clue me in on the convo? 20:35:05 i'm strictly "non-wrapping array, non-wrapping cells, 8 bit cells" kind of brainfuck programmer 20:35:14 ah :) 20:35:18 convo? 20:35:20 :) 20:35:22 conversation? 20:35:26 Yeah, sorry 20:35:32 oh 20:35:42 well, don't know about that :) 20:35:45 about getting 111 to some cell 20:35:45 in this code i assumed 20:35:45 the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended 20:35:45 ++++[>++++<-]>[<+++++++>-]<- 20:36:20 Ahh yes 20:37:06 Keymaker: yours is exactly like mine in category one :) 20:38:04 :) 20:38:20 but remember i haven't seen your solution 20:38:27 where are they? 20:38:40 so it was purely accidental 20:38:52 http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4 20:38:55 oops 20:39:10 click on "english version" 20:39:20 that's the link for the spanish one 20:39:39 ok 20:39:52 err 20:39:55 actually, no 20:40:07 hehe, sorry... I left that part untranslated 20:40:29 i see 20:40:35 the theoretical lower bound is 27 instructions 20:40:35 maybe that was why i didn't find them 20:40:47 (and still haven't!) 20:41:30 look for "Soluciones" 20:41:41 http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4#Soluciones 20:42:01 The requested URL /Articulos/indexArticulo.php was not found on this server. 20:42:19 whoops 20:42:20 :\ 20:42:20 Hmm...... 20:42:36 GAH, I've got to get back to this report X-D 20:42:43 did you find them, Keymaker? 20:42:47 nope 20:43:46 strange 20:44:01 so.. are they somewhere on that translated page? 20:44:25 nope, they're just in the spanish page 20:44:40 have you tried the second link? 20:45:09 yes 20:45:18 but it doesn't work 20:45:23 my Mozilla got a bit crazy 20:45:39 after it loads, click on the URL bar and hit ENTER 20:45:57 maybe that helps 20:46:11 sorry, no effect :) 20:46:32 hm, let me see if I have it in my old page 20:48:44 http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Buscaminas.html 20:48:50 just uploaded it 20:49:26 ah, now i can see 20:49:29 i'll check it out 20:51:40 if you happen to be interested in the article, the English version is in http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Minesweeper.html (this one is complete) 20:52:52 thanks, i'll read it! 20:56:31 * pgimeno admits with a red face that the Minesweeper Designer program is Windows-only 20:57:39 GregorR-L: are you still interested in letting me host the 2L specs? 20:58:52 Sure 21:00:12 could you perhaps elaborate it a bit more? 21:01:03 not the language itself 21:01:28 Umm, possibly. I could definitely fix the logic tree of doom ^_^ 21:01:35 hehe 21:01:56 I mean like give examples 21:02:09 wrap up a "distribution" if possible 21:02:59 Okiday 21:03:07 I could even autoconf it X-D 21:03:13 Which would be pointless, since there's only one file ;) 21:03:15 So I won't. 21:04:38 better not :) 21:05:35 ./configure ... checking for bfc: Sorry, the interpreter is written in BrainFuck, so you need a BrainFuck compiler to compile this! 21:05:35 :-P 21:05:48 hehehe 21:06:02 BF should be a standard POSIX tool 21:06:18 Indeed 21:06:27 after all who uses dc anyway? 21:06:29 All scripts that you would write in perl should instead be written in BF. 21:06:41 second that! 21:06:45 X-D 21:06:53 yeah, much more programmer-friendly 21:07:01 Easier to read, less obtuse. 21:07:07 :) 21:07:08 agree 21:07:15 easy syntax 21:07:25 No confusing regex 21:07:52 there's not a thousand ways of writing the same semantically equivalent statement 21:07:54 Oooooooooh, that's what I want to see. A regex mungler in BF. Has anybody written one? 21:08:18 uh, regexps are hard to deal with 21:08:42 to code, I mean 21:10:24 Heheh 21:10:33 Which is why I want to see them in BF >:) 21:10:52 what are those? 21:12:47 echo -e "hi\nbye" | grep 'h.*' 21:12:53 The h.* there is a regex expression. 21:13:04 It says "look for an h, then any character repeated any number of times 21:13:11 There are infinitely more complex ones :-P 21:13:34 there's even one that validates dates 21:13:34 :) 21:14:21 There are couple dozen-line ones that validate email addresses. 21:15:07 well, I don't really mean that there's ONE, just that they have enough power to let that be made ;) 21:15:22 indeed I've written my own date validator 21:15:45 They have just as much power as finite state automatons. :p (Well, perl regular expressions don't count, you can include arbitrary perl code in those.) 21:17:04 Oy. This is so difficult to explain ...... 21:17:25 They aren't very readable, though. One of my perl scripts say $rest =~ /^((?:(?:$ex_nt|$ex_t|$ex_e)(?:\s+|$|(?=\|)))*)\s*(?:\||$)\s*(.*)$/ and it's not immediately obvious what that does. 21:17:46 what it does?! 21:17:57 I don't know. It's not obvious. 21:18:01 :D 21:18:19 perl should be esoteric 21:18:28 hehe 21:19:00 :) hmm, what is finite sate automaton? 21:19:48 a state machine, something like a Turing machine but unidirectional (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 21:21:46 Basically a Turing machine without the tape, yes. It has a set of states, and it does transitions between the states according to the input it receives, handling one character of input at a time. 21:22:10 (And either accepts or rejects the input, depending on what state it ends up in.) 21:24:06 OK 21:24:08 I updated the README again 21:24:16 This time it has a worthless tutorial 8-D 21:24:54 yay! 21:25:24 let's see.. 21:25:57 neat! 21:28:46 now that's much better 21:28:59 "That's it! That's the whole language! Isn't that simple ... but not!" 21:29:00 :) 21:29:03 :D 21:29:07 looks good! 21:29:14 btw, some questions; 21:29:22 1. how the program stops? 21:30:04 2. what is TLO? 21:30:28 now.. make an interpreter, i wanna code something! 21:30:34 :) 21:31:27 OHHHHHH! Both very important. 21:31:31 I have an interpreter. 21:31:32 2li.c 21:31:39 TLO = Top location 0, right? 21:31:50 err tape 21:31:53 Tape location 0, yes. I should write that in. 21:31:59 yeah 21:32:09 and upload the interpreter 21:32:22 The interpreter is up there... 21:33:10 wasn't I/O being made by a * when the program was runing up/down? 21:33:32 No, it's right-left 21:33:41 If I wrote it otherwise, I'm an idiot 8-D 21:34:00 well, I don't have the previous version and I don't remember :) 21:34:19 in case of doubt it's me who's wrong :) 21:34:25 Heheh 21:36:07 hum, seems to me that it will cost too much traveling from TL0 to TL[whatever] for moderately long programs 21:36:10 2li uploaded with Makefile 21:37:00 You could use 0s and travel intelligently *shrugs* 21:37:29 0: 1, 1: 1, 2: 0, 3: n, 4: n, ...., 50: 7 21:37:36 You're on 50, just loop backwards until you hit a 0 21:37:44 You'd want to put a 0 somewhere there so you could get back 21:37:56 And yes, it would cost too much as well 8-D 21:40:19 furthermore, why left/right are mapped to up/down and raise/lower value are mapped to left/right? 21:40:38 it would be very graphical if these matched 21:41:08 I was mentally imagining it the other way. I was seeing a vertical tape in my head, with values stretching left-right. 21:41:15 if you operate going to the right, you move the pointer to the right 21:41:17 oh 21:41:28 ok then :) 21:41:46 But it doesn't quite work the same as in BF, so my descriptions weren't helpful :-P 21:43:19 gotta go now 21:43:27 see you tomorrow 21:44:46 Bye 21:45:00 bye 21:46:31 -!- Keymaker has set topic: Somebody make a cooler topic!. 21:51:47 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: Time to fight with BF! Learn FYB (http://www.befunge.org/fyb/) and challenge Gregor's logicex-1.fyb!. 21:51:49 Ahahahahaha 21:51:59 I'm such a jackass 21:52:03 :) 21:59:04 YAY! I finished my paper ^_^ 21:59:18 good 21:59:22 what is it about? 21:59:36 It's for my Technical Writing class, so it's just some example situation from the book. 22:00:28 ok 22:35:02 Nearly got my compiler working again. 22:35:08 Perhaps :-P 22:43:42 hopefully 22:43:55 Sadly, no. 22:43:59 I'm not sure what the problem is... 22:44:04 It makes C with a bunch of gotos X-D 22:44:29 :) 22:56:25 Oy. I'll get back to that later :-P 22:56:49 Note: 2L is subject to change when I look closely at my Hello World program and find that I misimplemented it today. 23:00:59 My befunge compiler makes C with _a lot_ of gotos. 23:01:07 Yay :-P 23:01:34 See http://befunge.org/~fis/out.c.txt for an example compilation of http://befunge.org/~fis/utm.html although I think I've advertised this thing here too much already. 23:02:15 Truly a masterpiece. 23:17:42 The compiler is still rather buggy. Haven't had time to fix. 23:20:55 i'll go. sleepy 23:21:04 good nite 23:21:14 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 23:41:44 -!- GregorR-La has joined. 23:41:54 Hi GregorR-L, how are you :-P 23:58:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:59:41 Finally 23:59:44 -!- GregorR-La has changed nick to GregorR-L. 2005-05-05: 02:07:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 02:25:40 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:29:34 YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 04:29:38 My boss saves the day! 04:29:47 I sent him a copy of the original 2L! 04:29:50 And he still has it 8-D 04:33:16 GAK! 04:33:19 I did misimplement it! 04:33:26 I KNEW it was supposed to be filled with 0s >_< 04:50:55 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/2l/HelloWorld.2l < Hello World in 2L :) 06:36:12 -!- lament has joined. 06:50:23 -!- calamari has joined. 07:14:59 -!- Keymaker has joined. 07:15:18 haha, that's probably coolest Hello World i've seen! 07:15:51 you should add it to that article in wikipedia that has hello world on different languages (including esoteric) :) 07:31:34 -!- calamari_ has joined. 07:40:07 I'll have to write a Wikipedia page for 2L as well... 07:40:15 ok 07:40:17 But I feel bad writing a page about my own language... 07:40:21 Like I'm advertizing myself... 07:40:34 hmm 07:40:39 i don't think so. 07:40:56 yeah, isn't there a rule against original research? 07:40:57 i mean i don't think it's advertizing :) 07:41:10 that's why we need the esowiki 07:41:21 there were rumors about deleting most of esoteric things from wikiperia. 07:41:31 seems like everyone to promises to put one up vanishes 07:42:03 they don't vanish, they just lose their mental health :p 07:42:12 and aren't able to write anymore 07:42:21 haha.. can't imagine a wiki being that hard to put up 07:42:22 thus we can't see them in irc 07:42:31 :) 07:42:49 Please do not create an article to promote yourself, a website, a product, or a business (see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not). 07:43:01 It's not really myself, a website, a product or a business. 07:43:04 So I guess it's OK 8-D 07:43:16 it's a product of your insanity ;) 07:43:32 hm. it isn't advertising in my humble opinion 07:44:43 I doubt anyone would care. just avoid using "I", "me", etc.. :) 07:45:31 How do you use a template... 07:45:57 don't ask me, just look some other entries "source code" 07:48:35 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:48:55 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 07:57:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2L_programming_language 07:59:50 pretty good! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:00 now make the traditional quine example :P 08:00:36 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *head explodes* 08:00:42 hehe 08:01:01 actually it wouldn't be probably that complicated 08:01:06 or wait 08:01:09 it would 08:01:11 i guess :) 08:01:29 I'll try that sometime 08:01:44 when i first learn the basics 08:02:47 btw, so there's "infinite" space on right side? 08:03:48 Well, within the limits of the interpreter/compiler's memory 08:03:50 and the program ends if the pointer's x = -1 or y = -1 08:03:58 Yeah 08:04:00 yeah 08:04:01 ok! 08:04:06 thanks 08:04:10 See, it's not TOO bad 8-D 08:04:15 heh 08:25:23 are there two interpreters in the 2L package? 08:26:00 2lc.c and 2li.c? 08:26:14 which one i use? 08:29:26 and probably new-line is value 10 only (hopefully)? 08:35:26 and what's the file extension for 2l programs? 08:35:31 .2l ? 08:36:09 yay.. I'm now vapor.. http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/wiki/index.php 08:36:21 how long did that take.. 45 mins or so? 08:36:32 :) 08:36:56 Absolutely no content whatsoever 08:37:02 yeah 08:37:20 but didn't someone just recently start an esowiki? 08:37:23 I wonder.. should an esoteric wiki be well organized? =) 08:37:35 probably not :) 08:37:36 maybe.. but then I heard nothing 08:37:44 ok 08:37:54 not sure if the starter is here anymore 08:37:57 on this channel i mean 08:38:00 I haven't been here much, though.. so that means nothing :) 08:38:00 can't remember' 08:38:07 ya 08:38:26 I think the person was going to copy all the wikipedia content over 09:02:55 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:08:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:08:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:08:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:45:29 hi 10:48:05 GregorR: are you around? 11:17:40 There was a good brainf*ck debugger somewhere? 11:18:01 I think mine is fairly good 11:18:45 looking for the damn link 11:20:19 http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/files/brfd10.zip 11:20:51 Last night I wrote a 'regular expression to brainf*ck' compiler in java (parses a regular expression to a nondeterministic state automaton, determinizes and minimizes it, then writes brainf*ck code to "simulate" it) but the code generated is buggy. 11:21:14 whoa 11:21:19 * pgimeno rolls eyes 11:22:28 I think you can make use of that debugger, it has a couple of features that may be very helpful when debugging 11:27:53 Ooh, a "step out of current loop" feature is something I've really been looking forward to. :) 11:28:12 :) 11:28:43 is there a Library of BF Ready-Made Functions somewhere? you know, like you don't have to write the same routine again and again like, e.g. pcre in BF :) 11:33:19 -!- calamari_ has joined. 11:49:07 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:52:32 -!- kipple has joined. 12:11:50 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 12:38:24 Yay. 12:38:29 fis@colin:~/prog/eclipse-workspace/misc$ java -cp . org.gehennom.misc.BFRE 'a(a|b)*b|b(a|b)*a' > ~/prog/misc/brfd/re.bf 12:38:35 fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n 'aabbab' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf 12:38:35 acc! 12:38:35 fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n 'aabbaa' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf 12:38:35 rej! 12:38:57 "This exhaustive testing conclusively proves it works for all regular expressions and inputs." 12:40:06 heh, nice! :) 12:40:31 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:40:39 'ello 12:40:45 hi 12:40:48 hi 12:41:07 i don't think there's any brainfuck function collection 12:41:10 at least i haven't seen 12:41:58 that's sad 12:44:50 say, you want to operate with numbers > 255 (e.g. to perform a scientific computation; BF is soon to be implemented as the language of choice for scientific computations, replacing the now obsolete FORTRAN). Do you have to write your own bignum library? 12:46:21 yes :0 12:47:14 you can operate with really big numbers but it gets really hard 12:47:46 oh, well, it's up to the compiler to optimize the code so that it runs smoothly 12:49:36 if the code is slow, it's the compiler's fault 12:50:39 :) 12:50:47 hehe 12:51:10 is there a TPK algorithm implementation in BF? 12:51:16 what is that? 12:52:03 nope 12:52:12 as far as i know there is not 12:52:30 it's another kind of language features tester 12:52:42 would be pretty hard to code in bf i think 12:52:58 http://www.cs.fit.edu/~ryan/compare/ 12:53:17 yeah, i'm on that page righ now 12:53:29 Knuth has an Intercal version in his page 13:05:50 here's a befunge quine i made up today 13:05:53 "48*2+,>:#,_@ @_,#:>,+2*84 13:06:05 this method has been most probably used thousands of times, i have a feeling 13:08:16 I haven't ever befunged 13:08:35 well, i haven't much either 13:09:22 it looks deliciously simple 13:09:48 it is 13:12:18 I'll have a look when I have some spare time... right now I can't even dedicate to malbolge 13:12:27 ok 13:12:30 anyway stack-based languages are not among my favorites 13:12:40 i prefer tape :) 13:12:44 tape array 13:12:51 like brainfuck 13:12:57 indeed 13:13:07 i'm not such fan of stacks, probably because i have never used them before esolangs 13:13:29 I have written a bit of Forth but I didn't like it 13:13:39 that's probably why I don't like stacks 13:13:46 :) 13:13:52 I have to revisit Q-BAL sometime 13:15:52 i haven't tried that 13:16:01 and here's the second quine 13:16:02 ##"57*:,,48*2+,>:#,_48*2+,57*, @ ,*75,+2*84_,#:>,+2*84,,:*75"# 13:16:36 * pgimeno feels a symmetry pattern :P 13:16:49 Keymaker, brilliant! 13:17:07 :) cheers! 13:56:47 befunge has interesting stuff 13:56:52 such as self-replacement 13:57:14 the program can change its own code 14:38:55 I'm trying to debug my regexp compiler by looking at the state machines it creates. For something simple like that 'a(a|b)*b|b(a|b)*a' example it works, but for this date-with-time-validating regular expression the generated state machine is.. not very visualizable. You can look at http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.png for an example, but it's a 8422x6504-sized png so looking at it can be a bit sluggish. 14:39:06 I am having some trouble figuring out whether it is "correct" or not. :p 14:41:48 wow, so does some program do that picture? 14:41:55 i mean that your prog 14:42:49 Nope, I just dumped the transitions to a text file and mangled it a bit to create a .dot I feeded to graphviz. 14:43:42 I'm going to try combining the multiple transitions to a single arrow, now, the 10+ arrows going from a -> b aren't exactly helping. 14:44:20 ok 14:51:44 I agree, fizzie, I can't follow that graphic 14:52:36 looking at the original regex would help as well 14:52:49 It's.. messy. 14:54:04 My parser doesn't do character classes, so I had to convert [0-9] to (0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9). 14:57:16 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:57:30 oh, the motivation of the difficulty... I think I could write a [x-y] range parser in a few minutes, but it's so easy that it's not worth spending time on it :P 15:05:45 Ahh. re2.png and especially re3.png are much clearer. In re2 the transitions have been combined, in re3 the "error state" has been left out. 15:08:40 The regular expression I used was '((0|1|2|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|3(0|1)).((0|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|1(0|1|2)).((0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|_) *((0|1)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|2(0|1|2|3)):(0|1|2|3|4|5)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(:(0|1|2|3|4|5)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|:6(0|1)|_)' 15:09:08 (There's a " *" between the parts, that's perhaps not very clear if it line-wraps badly.) 15:09:44 But as far as I can determine, the automaton is correct, so my brainf*ck code is not. Bleh. 15:10:23 That's not _really_ a date-validating regexp, since it doesn't care about number of days in a month. 15:10:37 (It does allow leap seconds, though.) 15:10:43 what kind of brainfuck code you got? 15:11:45 That's in http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bf.txt .. it's not very optimized. :p 15:12:06 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH! 15:12:10 :D 15:12:19 maybe i won't try looking what could be wrong.. 15:12:39 woah.. 15:13:13 You can look at re2.bf.txt if you want, that's commented. 15:13:19 sure 15:13:22 Automatically commented, even. :p 15:15:55 I guess I'll try debugging it when I have some free time. :p 15:16:12 Single-stepping and watching the state transitions helps to see where it goes worng. 15:35:45 fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '11.4.2002 11:03:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf 15:35:45 acc! 15:35:45 fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '32.4.2002 11:03:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf 15:35:45 rej! 15:35:45 fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '11.4.2002 11:60:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf 15:35:47 rej! 15:36:22 There was a simple bug in the few last lines of brainf*ck where it chose what to print. 15:36:50 hm, according to the graph you can't type 10.x.xxxx 15:38:19 or 20.x.xxxx 15:42:18 -!- kipple has joined. 15:45:38 Oh, right. 15:45:43 That's a bug in the regexp, though. 15:46:27 ((0|1|2|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|3(0|1)) should be something like ((0|1|2_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|(1|2)0|3(0|1)) 15:47:21 does * have the classical meaning? 15:47:36 what's _? 15:47:44 epsilon i assume 15:47:46 _ is the empty string, yes. 15:47:57 oh 15:48:13 uh, which is actually different from epsilon, isn't it? i'm getting confused by the terminology 15:48:44 I'm used to the (0|1|2)? kind of test 15:49:27 This doesn't have "?". The syntax is straight from our "Introduction to Theoretical Computer Science" course homework assignment checker. 15:50:31 I haven't read that, I'm just an egrep user :) 16:14:32 Keymaker: 2li.c is an interpreter, 2lc.c is a compiler. 16:14:38 pgimeno: You buzzed? 16:14:51 ah ok 16:14:53 :) 16:17:56 Oh, and, yeah, .2. 16:17:59 *.2l 16:24:49 ok 16:25:53 attention! 16:26:16 if you want to check out my programming site i just made the way i want it to be, go here: 16:26:17 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/ 16:26:22 not much content yet 16:26:37 but i hope to add programs there as time passes 16:26:53 as well, tell me what do you think about the "design" 16:27:29 Gregor is incapable of design decisions. 16:27:31 Trust me 16:27:50 However, I notice a distinctive lack of 2L quines :-P 16:28:13 :) 16:28:49 is 2l turing-complete? 16:29:33 I'm almost positive it is - I'm modestly sure that it's BF-complete. 16:29:59 Any BF operation could be done with a bit of blood sweat and tears. 16:30:12 GregorR: hey 16:30:22 pgimeno: Hey 16:30:23 :) 16:30:43 this channel hasn't been this active for a very long time 16:30:54 Heheh 16:30:56 (so good you two joined :)) 16:32:01 GregorR: well, about hosting 2L 16:32:50 I can give you a permanent page (not very intuitive but at least immutable in some years) 16:33:21 How so? 16:33:28 IE: How is it "not very intuitive"? 16:33:39 Unlike 2L, which is mind-blowingly intuitive :-P 16:33:46 something like http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/ 16:33:49 hehe 16:34:07 I could supply a subdomain. 16:34:27 I own codu.org , but have very minimal space and bandwidth on my host there :-P 16:34:29 this damn hosting company doesn't allow subdomains 16:34:32 Because I pay $1/mo 8-D 16:34:44 I can set up a redirection 16:34:55 oops, sorry, work 16:34:55 Well, I meant a redirection from 2l.codu.org 16:34:59 brb 16:35:17 "Whoops, got to make my boss look like I'm doing work" ? 16:37:22 hehe 16:38:08 well, as you like 16:38:31 Anyway, yeah, that'd be great 16:39:08 I'd just want to avoid it being lost like so many others 16:39:40 I'm afraid of the day web.archive.org is down 16:40:04 yeah. I''ve been thinking about that too. 16:40:15 too many esolangs exist on only one webpage 16:40:31 Are there any OO esoteric languages (other than Java of course ahaha) 16:40:49 Java2K? 16:41:02 is that OO? I don't think so 16:41:10 just a random thought 16:41:15 well, of course HQ9++ 16:41:27 too bad it's not turing-complete 16:41:38 hehe 16:41:56 Remember that ugly re.bf.txt? I quick-n-dirty-converted it to befunge: http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bef.txt - I don't have any befunge interpreter here that'd support unlimited-size playfield and [a-f] hex-numbers, so I haven't tested it. 16:42:41 wow 16:44:08 About the only optimization it does it to combine runs of +++s, ---s, <<>>s into a single 2f*4+f*1+ -style number. Other than that, it's a straight translation of the brainf*ck code. 16:44:25 (Except that loops involve a lot of going-around.) 16:46:34 It's amazing how many diversions one can find when the other alternative would be to read for exams. ('Fundamentals of network media' and 'Discrete Mathematics' both are tomorrow.) 16:46:47 :) 16:46:51 yeah, i know that.. 16:47:13 (i mean i know that allkinds of other stuff can be done easily instead of reading to exams.) 16:47:31 Sometime this week, I will have an esoteric OO programming language ... because the world needs one (other than Java ahaha) 16:49:20 great :) 16:49:38 :) 16:50:15 so, what OO concepts are you planning to include? 16:51:52 Well, just one sec. Does anybody agree that this would be esoteric (this will be a few lines...): 16:51:57 There is such a thing as a voicebox. 16:51:57 A voicebox can speak a word. 16:51:57 When this program starts: 16:51:57 I have one voicebox. 16:51:57 My first voicebox speaks "Hello World!" 16:51:58 When a voicebox is to speak: 16:52:00 I have one stdout. 16:52:02 My first stdout is to speak the word. 16:52:49 Inheritance wouldn't be too hard, and I have a plan for class variables ... no public/private interfaces. 16:53:18 Whoops, gtg to school. 16:53:23 See you all later. 16:53:30 later GregorR 16:53:39 fizzie, you're currently hosting GregorR's 2L, right? 16:53:54 bye 17:20:23 rghh 17:21:43 must go. 17:21:48 later' 17:21:49 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 17:47:34 Yeah, fizzie is 17:47:58 The more I think of it, the more I think that that wouldn't be esoteric enough. 17:48:07 It's sort of pointlessly wordy, but way too intuitive. 17:56:31 well, I like it and that's enough :) 17:56:38 (for me anyway) 17:56:54 X-D 17:57:19 some notes about the Wikipedia article 17:58:05 an example should not be so long 17:58:15 I think it's 4-5 lines 17:59:11 I don't know if I can accomplish anything in less X-D 17:59:16 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:00:08 I mean the line limit 18:01:50 would you allow me to make small edits here and there to let it conform to the Wikipedia policies better? 18:03:44 Ohhhhhhh 18:03:45 Sure 18:04:38 the "Hello world" can't be there, would you mind if I take the example from the tutorial? 18:04:51 Sure 18:04:58 It's even more worthless, but yeah :-P 18:06:00 it's just for the casual user to get an idea of what a program looks like 18:06:43 Heh, I guess so 18:06:49 And to scare them away >:) 18:09:00 YAY! 5 midterms in this series and I've gotten an A on every single one 8-D 18:12:18 wow, congrats! 18:12:50 btw, it's done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2L_programming_language 18:13:24 Hoopla :) 18:15:08 damn, "Server shutdown in progress" 18:15:26 Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :-P 18:23:12 I guess that those who want to see what "Hello, world!" looks like will have to visit the page 18:23:39 oh, as soon as you want me to post it, tell me what the files are and I'll post them 18:32:14 bbl 18:46:05 Wow, that Hello World looks great :) 18:46:43 really nice (read: nasty) language... 19:07:15 Wow 19:10:21 And what's "<" in the sample program in Wikipedia? 19:11:28 From the spec: "The < is the direction that your program pointer will be going in when you're done producing the 19:11:28 value." 19:11:44 got me confused for a while as well 19:12:32 YAY! 19:12:33 i changed "(0,0) moving down" with "(0,0) moving right" 19:12:59 It's actually supposed to be "moving down" 19:13:07 My old README was screwy... 19:13:14 Because I was working from memory 19:13:25 Anyway, back to "YAY!" 19:13:32 My OO esoteric language is functional :-P 19:13:53 ok 19:14:08 that's nice. Care to show us? 19:15:07 Give me a bit. 19:15:14 Well, I could paste something in here... 19:15:19 But I'm still working on the spec. 19:15:24 I've started thinking about one myself :) 19:16:03 http://pastebin.ca/11055 19:16:28 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:17:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:17:50 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:18:33 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:18:41 is that actual code? 19:18:58 Yes. 19:19:02 It's also a story X-D 19:19:53 omg 19:20:05 that's awesome 19:20:13 :-P 19:20:35 It has the usefulness of BASIC with the power of English and OO! 19:21:29 There's no logic yet. 19:21:32 So I'm not done :-P 19:22:45 so, outputter is the only pre-defined object in that code. Am I right? 19:22:52 Yeah 19:23:03 I'm also going to make mathematician 19:23:13 I have a mathematician called ProfessorBob 19:23:22 ProfessorBob is to increment myNumber. 19:23:24 :) 19:50:04 that program sounds like some kind of weird poetry 19:50:46 kind of like a childrens book :) 20:02:01 that kind of thing gets very old very fast 20:07:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:26:31 Well. ORK (this OO esoteric language) turns out to be the source of all evil in this world. 21:26:36 However, it is now working. 21:26:46 However however, I'm at work and can't send it up anywhere :( 21:27:07 ORK = Objekts R Kool 21:38:13 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:38:14 hi 21:38:23 Hoi 21:38:29 :) 21:38:31 (I'm not here, I'm at work ;) ) 21:39:20 heh 21:39:47 So I'll upload my esoteric OO language somewhere this evening (when I'm not at work) 21:39:52 But here's a sample: 21:40:08 This sample will multiply 5 by 5 then output the result 21:40:14 When this program begins: 21:40:21 There is a mathematician called ProfBob. 21:40:29 There is an outputter called StdOut. 21:40:34 ProfBob's first operand is 5. 21:40:40 ProfBob's second operand is 5. 21:40:44 ProfBob is to multiply. 21:40:53 StdOut is to output ProfBob's result. 21:41:30 lol 21:41:34 looks nice 21:41:56 And it's object oriented beyond all usefulness :-P 21:55:04 must.. invent.. own.. esoteric.. language.. 21:55:17 * Keymaker tries to think 21:56:12 can't get any connect to brains :p 21:56:22 *connection 22:01:41 I think I'm about done creating them ... 22:01:52 I've created a too-little-to-work-with-a-la-BF one... 22:02:01 I've created a too-damn-wordy-to-be-useful one... 22:02:06 :) 22:02:21 But one of these days, I'll go "You know what would be totally worthless..." 22:29:34 I think I want a befunge variant with function calls (simple define-function-with-integer-name, call-function-n and return would suffice, although I'm not sure if there should be a way of having more than a single return value) and perhaps with a _really_ simple module system (load-a-file, which could export a set of functions). 22:29:53 I guess it'd be cheatey and unbefungey, but that'd be a language one could actually use for real-world applications. 22:30:58 I would LOVE to see a non-esoteric 2D language. 22:31:08 yeah 22:31:15 would pretty cool 22:31:56 My attempts to conceptualize one have all been in vain, however :( 22:42:45 damn, I've been too busy tonight and I must leave now... I'll read the backlog tomorrow, bye 22:49:50 bye 22:50:09 i'm too tired to do anything, i'll go too 22:50:14 good night 22:50:18 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 23:56:48 I made a quaint little 60-line recursive Fibonacci number generator in ORK :-P 23:57:05 It would have taken, oh, maybe as many as 10 in C++. 2005-05-06: 00:06:46 I've made a recursive fibonacci in befunge. It takes (optimized; not completely by me) 13x3, 23x2 or 9x4 characters. 00:31:20 Heheh. 00:31:23 I just finished cat, too. 00:31:33 A clean 10 lines. 00:32:54 >~# :#,_@ (with EOF=0 semantics) 00:33:52 EOF in ORK is EZ :-P 00:34:01 If StdIn says it's done then I am to quit. 00:34:38 do you have an interpreter already, or is it all on "paper"? 00:37:12 It compiles to C++ 00:37:23 With the worst parser ever written by mankind. 00:37:23 nice 00:37:43 wow! is it written by Mankind? :) 00:37:55 Depends on your definition of me :-P 00:38:09 well, I wouldn't know... 00:38:33 * GregorR takes off his human mask. 00:38:37 * GregorR is a giant insect!!! 00:39:20 how do you do that trick to talk about yourself in 3rd person? 00:39:31 /me in most IRC clients. 00:39:55 * kipple has learned something today 00:40:01 ^_^ 00:40:03 yay. thanks 00:40:08 N/P 00:42:29 * kipple drives out nonkipple 00:42:38 :D 00:43:32 StdOut is to write "Yay!\n" 02:14:30 w00t, loops and conditionals are both working :) 02:22:42 hi 03:45:06 Hoi 03:51:32 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:53:27 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:59:33 ORK is done :) 03:59:41 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/ 03:59:55 fizzie: Sorry I keep tossing stuff into the FYB web space, I promise that's the last one ;0 03:59:57 *;) 04:24:32 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/fibonacci.ork < Fibonacci sequence ... particularly ugly 8-D 04:52:39 Apparently I'm incapable of writing a Quine. 05:03:30 -!- puzzlet has quit. 07:46:13 -!- calamari has joined. 07:54:37 YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 07:54:41 I MADE A QUINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 07:56:22 That 1 is significant. 07:58:38 -!- Keymaker has joined. 07:58:42 haohplah 07:58:46 crazy language 07:58:49 quine! 07:58:50 where? 07:58:52 gimme! 07:59:07 In ORK :) 07:59:10 One sec... 07:59:18 ok 07:59:25 (and yeah i knew it was in ORK) 07:59:29 Please don't laugh at how long and stupid it is, it's my first quine ;) 07:59:31 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/quine.ork 07:59:46 i don't laugh at all 07:59:50 looks really cool 07:59:53 in a language like this 07:59:54 wow 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:35 i don't laugh at all 08:00:36 in fact 08:00:38 i'm crying 08:00:58 lol 08:01:20 very cool 08:01:45 i don't have the slightest idea how it works :) the language is too bizarre :p 08:02:10 I haven't documented it yet, so ... *cough* 08:02:21 It's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented. 08:02:33 The only function you can have outside of an object is "main' 08:03:00 sounds like java 08:03:15 Like I said, it's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented. :) 08:03:59 :) 08:05:40 seems to be turing-complete (at least i'd guess so) 08:05:57 I think it is *shrugs* 08:06:08 It's not as easy to prove as things that you can prove are BF-complete. 08:07:19 Actually... 08:07:31 If I wrote a BF interpreter in ORK, that would prove it was turing complete, yes? 08:07:39 yes 08:08:08 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 08:08:16 I think I'll write a spec first. 08:08:27 better yet, try the universal register machine 08:08:28 it's easier 08:08:35 usually 08:08:54 lament: it doesn't get much easier to implement than bf :) 08:09:03 Heheh 08:09:05 universal register machine is easier 08:09:20 lament: please do tell 08:09:45 at least i think so 08:09:49 http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html 08:09:50 how does universal register machine work? 08:10:30 hi 08:10:31 actuall it's even more similar to BF than i remembered. 08:10:40 hi 08:10:56 IIRC Faase's pages hold a description 08:10:57 Well, sleepitime for me (right as everybody else is finally becoming active) 08:11:03 See you all later. 08:11:23 hehe, nite GregorR-L 08:11:30 bye :=) 08:11:39 (darn '=') 08:13:09 so it is that language is turing-complete if some other, turing-complete, language's interpreter can be written in it? 08:13:24 like for example bf interpreter? 08:13:48 yes 08:13:53 ok 08:14:17 or, if you can compile programs in another turing complete language to your language 08:14:23 oh, lament already posted the page... I think I need more coffee 08:14:32 :) 08:16:10 note that to actually prove turing completeness with brainfuck 08:16:11 btw, I've found a language called OOPS in the old Cat's Eye pages which is allegedly object-oriented (thus the name ;) but there's no link - does anyone know anything else? 08:16:11 is there any language that isn't turing-complete but where still has been written some turing-complete language's interpreter? or could that even be possible? 08:16:20 you need either an infitite memory size 08:16:24 or infinite cell size 08:16:37 ok 08:16:37 there must be SOME way to store arbitrary amount of information 08:16:46 otherwise it's just a finite state machine 08:17:13 Keymaker: well i guess 08:17:15 if you have a language 08:17:27 in which the only instruction is "input a brainfuck program, and interpret it" 08:17:33 that language isn't really turing-complete :) 08:17:36 :) 08:17:49 haha, would be a good joke language 08:18:21 so i guess writing an interpreter does NOT really prove turing-completeness 08:18:22 :( 08:18:27 you need to compile stuff 08:18:31 I think that when people are talking about "turing completeness" with respect to programming languages, it really means "x is turing complete within the limitations of the interpreter's memory" 08:18:35 from a turing-complete lanugage to your langugae 08:18:48 GregorR: no 08:19:08 Well then no language is turing complete. 08:19:08 GregorR: you don't care about interpreters when judging turing-completeness 08:19:13 GregorR: wrong 08:19:20 They're all limited by memory constraints. 08:19:23 no, they're not 08:19:24 OHHHHHHH, I see. 08:19:26 interpreters are 08:19:26 hmm 08:19:30 languages aren't 08:19:32 The language C is not limited by memory. 08:19:40 a language defines a specification of a virtual machine 08:19:40 Only the system your run it on is. 08:19:42 i see now 08:19:48 this virtual machine may or may not be turing complete 08:20:01 it may or may not require infinite memory 08:20:23 if it does require infinite memory then it's not possible to implement it 100% 08:20:32 Well, doesn't "turing complete" mean that, given the proper programming, it could do any mathematical task? 08:20:34 but it's turing-complete nonetheless 08:20:40 GregorR: yes 08:21:01 GregorR: unfortunately computers are not turing complete :) 08:21:09 :) 08:21:19 note that sometimes that implies storing the program in the tape 08:21:22 But a LANGUAGE could be if it did not have an implicit memory limit? 08:21:28 yep 08:21:31 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 08:21:32 i can just say 08:21:41 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:21:42 "brainfuck provides arbitrarily big memory" 08:21:46 whoops 08:21:49 So C is turing complete because you could do anything, though you might need to malloc(10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) 08:22:09 But BF is not because you could never have that many cells. 08:22:21 well 08:22:23 why not? 08:22:28 you don't need to malloc that much :) just think of the pointer type as an arbitrarily long integer 08:22:47 It was for effect :-P 08:22:51 GregorR: there's no agreement on whether BF memory is infinite or not 08:23:00 Isn't the language spec 30000 cells? 08:23:12 4000 or something, but nobody cares much 08:23:19 30000 i've heard 08:23:26 is that an ENSI spec? 08:23:30 no 08:23:37 but if i remember correct it's "at least" 08:23:42 i can be wrong 08:23:46 So then, if the cell count was built into the language, it could never be turing complete ... but if it wasn't (in BF as an example), it could be? 08:23:49 and i don't think the cell size is ever specified 08:24:05 which could mean that the cells themselves can be infinitely big 08:24:12 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 08:24:12 in which case you don't need too many of them to be turing-complete 08:24:16 Right. 08:24:21 So long as there's infinite means for storage. 08:24:31 (In the perfect scenario that can never be attained :-P ) 08:24:32 i wonder how few you need 08:24:44 actually in BF you probably still need infinite number of cells 08:24:54 but i'm not gonna try proving that :| 08:24:58 lol 08:25:13 did someone read http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt ? 08:25:20 I'm still confident that both 2L and ORK are turing complete (2L within the bounds of memory of course) 08:25:30 pgimeno: that spec is great 08:25:45 indeed 08:25:54 anyway even if you take BF's memory to be 30000 08:26:06 it's still intuitively turing complete 08:26:12 for any "small enough" problem 08:26:19 and if the problem is bigger, you just increase the memory size 08:26:23 Well, but doesn't turing complete MEAN for ANY problem? 08:26:26 since 30000 is clearly just an arbitrary number 08:26:30 Right. 08:26:34 well thing is 08:26:43 ANY problem would still need only finite memory 08:26:46 So, BF itself is, if 30000 is not taken to be part of the language, but of the implementation. 08:27:01 no matter how big your problem is 08:27:06 it only needs a finite memory 08:27:16 Calculating every digit of pi. 08:27:23 Infinite time, infinite memory. 08:27:23 that's not a valid problem 08:27:26 ^_^ 08:27:28 :-P 08:27:44 OK, I've REALLY got to sleep now. 08:27:48 mmmh.. pi 08:27:54 yes 08:27:59 good nite :) 08:28:06 nite GregorR 08:28:34 calculating pi to N digits is a valid problem :) 08:29:30 OK, OK: A language is turing complete IF given infinite memory and code space, it could solve any mathematical problem. Is that a good all-inclusive definition? 08:29:45 (Trust me, I'm asleep ;) ) 08:29:49 pretty much 08:30:05 still it's s/infinite/arbitrary 08:30:08 arbitrarily big 08:30:10 but finite 08:30:49 Well, if it was given infinite, it still certainly could ... and I think that's a bit easier to explain ... 08:30:54 How about "sufficiently large" 08:31:23 OK, now I'm REALLY REALLY sleeping. 08:32:44 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 08:32:50 the exclusion of infinite algorithms is somwehat puzzling to me... this C program: main() {printf("0."); while (1) printf("3");} obviously prints the infinite expansion of 1/3 even if it's not a valid algorithm 08:33:25 GregorR: why use such an obscure definitions? what's a "mathematical problem" anyway? 08:33:52 pgimeno: well, the reason is 08:34:00 pgimeno: turing machines don't have IO 08:34:10 you don't look at IO when deciding it 08:34:13 it's just a side effect 08:34:30 well, it could have 08:34:37 only at the state of the machine when the program terminates 08:35:35 well, it "could have" 08:35:47 but remember the pioneers were looking from a mathematical perspective 08:35:55 there's no IO in math 08:35:58 right 08:36:41 oh, well, I suppose it's just a question of historical reasons 08:37:43 but being limited to analysis of finite programs for historical reasons makes little sense to me 10:02:12 -!- kipple has joined. 11:57:08 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:00:32 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:00:38 hello 13:06:55 small challenge: 13:07:10 (or don't know if it's challenging) 13:08:44 make a file that has 32 characters in it: those characters should be the md5 hash of the file 13:08:48 (sorry about delay) 13:09:15 so, the data inside the file should be the md5 hash of the file 13:12:01 if that is possible it's probably not easy to find 13:12:16 hi Keymaker 13:12:21 yo 13:12:24 I was reading the backlog 13:12:30 ok 13:12:33 I have checked your quine 13:12:48 kipple? befunge? 13:12:55 befunge 13:12:59 ok 13:13:24 (your web page looks awesome, btw) 13:13:37 thanks, you're first to say that :) 13:14:16 I feel that the befunge quine is a bit cheatful though, in the sense that it reads its own source 13:14:30 yeah 13:14:58 but quine still ;) and valid program 13:15:42 it's quite compact and easy to understand (even for me who still didn't know anything about the Befunge instructions) 13:15:52 heh 13:15:57 yeah 13:17:26 the quine works the way that first it reads it own instructions to stack (stuff inside " ") 13:17:37 and the it executes the instructions 13:17:53 the instructions tell it to print out '"'s and the stuff there is in stack 13:18:22 oh, and print '#' as well 13:18:29 '#' jumps over one command 13:19:02 so at the end of 80 char line it jumps to place 2 to the beginning of the program and not to place 1 which is '"' 13:20:25 yep I understood it 13:20:38 yeah 13:20:45 btw 13:20:51 did you read that my challenge? 13:21:06 (that i wrote some minutes ago?) 13:21:10 (on this channel) 13:21:25 I was on it right now 13:21:44 cool! :) 13:21:46 I'm sure MD5 has a "fixed point" 13:22:00 it sounds likely 13:22:05 (don't know if that's the right name in English; in spanish it's "punto fijo") 13:22:22 i have no idea either but i assume i see what you mean 13:22:25 a value such that f(a) = a 13:22:33 yeah 13:22:51 I think that that's too big a challenge 13:23:00 most probably 13:23:11 takes at least lot of calculations 13:23:18 finding an MD5 collision has taken many years since MD5 was invented 13:23:30 I think that's about as much challenging as an MD5 collision 13:23:42 what's md5 collision? 13:23:54 finding two files with the same hash 13:23:57 ah 13:24:02 well, that has been done 13:24:18 two *different* files, that is :) 13:24:28 that is done 13:24:43 yes, of course, I think it's been done early this year 13:25:20 -!- KnX has joined. 13:25:32 i have no idea when, but i cna't remember where i found the fact 13:25:39 hi 13:25:39 i think it was somewhere in wikipedia 13:25:41 hi 13:26:24 MD4 has been cracked; perhaps it's feasible (for us anyway) to find fixed points (or whatever it is called) with it 13:28:00 I'm don't feel much like taking a challenge right now, though - I prefer to try to end my current projects in my scarce spare time 13:28:09 sure 13:28:40 btw, I've seen GregorR's Ork and I've liked it very much! 13:28:46 yes 13:28:50 pretty strange 13:28:56 and awesome that he made a quine in it 13:29:02 maybe it can be converted to an educational language even 13:29:07 hehe 13:29:31 (and about the challenge: it was mostly for laughs, i didn't even think that anyone would try to solve it!) 13:29:36 (although feel free) 13:29:48 oh hehe :) 13:29:54 :) 13:29:58 i'm searching peoples who wrote funge-98 interpreters , is there anyone here ? ( i'm trying to write mine, and have some questions ) 13:30:18 hmm, interesting project, but i haven't seen any 13:31:13 well, /me goes home, bbl 13:31:25 ok 13:31:27 bye 14:05:42 -!- Keymakere has joined. 14:06:29 i made a new befunge quine that's nicely 42 instructions 14:06:33 <> #"25*6*:,2+:,2+2/:,3+:,1-,>:#,_57*1-,@" 14:13:12 My ORK Quine is 102 lines :-P 14:13:23 I think yours is cleaner :-P 14:15:16 heh 14:15:48 whe does "Keymaker" leave this channel? 14:15:51 *when 14:16:06 i want to change my name already.. 14:17:51 well, just gotta wait.. 14:19:09 i'll watch the Matrix now. bbl 14:19:12 -!- Keymakere has quit ("Freedom!"). 14:24:06 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:19:46 -!- KnX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:38:29 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:38:50 aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 15:39:55 all this time i've been trying to find a f*cking dvd player for ******* Windows.. i just can't find any 15:40:47 even some trial version is ok, but some that doesn't stop after three minutes (man some are stupid) 15:41:18 i had to play 15 minutes breakout to get more calm 15:41:32 this is so annoying 15:42:26 and yes, the dvd player here in linux complains something that "error reading NAV packet" 15:42:29 and nothing else 15:42:35 i hate computers!? 15:42:39 *!! 15:42:45 :( 15:42:52 RRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGH 15:43:05 soon i'll smash the keyboard through window 15:43:45 rgh i have to read some linux books. i can't use this. i'm too afraid to try how stuff works. 15:44:09 so i can't install any new program here probably, not to mention finding some stuff from web if i need to get something 15:44:25 well i go searching...... i'm so annoyed......... 15:44:30 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 16:03:45 re 16:03:57 GregorR: did I already mention that ORK ROKs? :) 16:49:05 Heheh, yes you did pgimeno, but I have no problem with being showered with praise *shrugs* 16:49:37 And yes, actually, I was thinking when I was done that it would make a good quick-intro to object oriented programming that doesn't involve concurrently learning C++ syntax. 16:50:08 I'm still in the middle of writing a howto for it, however. 16:52:13 Keymaker: Win...dows? Isn't that some archaic operating system that nobody uses anymore? (In the happy universe in my head :'( ) 16:53:47 I like these constructs very much and I'm eager to read the specs 16:54:28 (I see no Keymaker around btw, though he usually reads the logs) 17:04:40 Yeah, I was under the impression that he did. 17:05:02 My current revision of the specs (which I can't upload from work >_<) are done, but worthless :-P 17:10:13 Any technical writers hang out on #esoteric? :-P 17:14:20 * GregorR suddenly remembers pgimeno's article site. 18:04:16 -!- Keymakere has joined. 18:04:20 hi 18:04:31 i hate windows 18:04:45 i throw my dvds away soon grrg 18:04:55 -!- Keymakere has changed nick to Keymaker. 18:05:11 as well 18:05:31 i read the logs :) 18:06:33 and i wish i wouldn't need to use windows never again 18:06:45 well, maybe later i don't have to 18:06:48 I haven't used Windows in .... 18:06:52 *whew* ... 18:07:01 :D 18:07:03 I don't even remember the last time I actively used Windows. 18:07:09 good for you 18:07:24 I work purely in a UNIX and GNU/Linux environment at work, I run GNU/Linux and the occasional BSD on my home systems.. 18:08:29 ok. i wonder has there ever been any medical research about "how $/m windows affects one's health" 18:08:50 probably the results would have been that active use of microsoft products causes 18:09:20 [insert some medical stuff here] 18:09:32 Has there ever been any medical research into the effects of BrainFuck on the human ... err ... brain? 18:09:45 :) 18:10:17 it would probably be filled with positive stuff how that wonderful language increases brain capacity and keeps brain in good condition 18:10:20 "Well, time to go to the store >>>>>>>>>> I'll take one of these - and one of these >- and two of those >>>-- 18:10:26 lol 18:10:30 :) 18:11:58 must go yet again. hopefully i can get to see the dvd.. 18:12:08 be back lamer 18:12:15 *later :p 18:12:17 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 18:14:12 By the way, whoever reads this log in the future, my "lol" up there was in response to Keymaker, not myself, I'm not so lame as to lol to my own joke. 18:16:37 * GregorR suddenly realizes the implications of somebody reading the log in the future. 18:16:59 If somebody reads this log in 2015, when I am inevitably world-famous, what will they think of me? 18:17:18 millions of people read #esoteric log every day 18:17:24 with their morning coffee 18:17:44 I don't so much care about current reading ... it's how it reflects on my future. 18:17:59 Will ORK get me hoisted from my position as supreme overlord of Earth? I don't like that thought. 18:19:00 why not? 18:19:01 oh 18:19:08 misread. 18:19:18 for some reason i read that "from" as "to" 18:19:23 it makes more sense that way 18:49:18 GregorR: sorry for the delay... about the spec, could I take a look at it somehow? 19:07:06 Not until at least this evening - I can't connect to my work's WLAN on my laptop, and have no other way of transferring off the files, so they languish there until I go home. At that point, of course. 19:08:02 Err, this evening in my timezone... 19:08:08 I'm GMT-8 19:08:25 It's 11:00AM here 19:09:05 So, tomorrow morning for you I guess. 19:09:35 okay, no problem 19:10:02 not even DCC? 19:10:18 I'm not actually on my laptop, I'm on my work comp. 19:10:24 My laptop has no network connection whatsoever. 19:10:38 how are you IRCing? 19:10:48 oh 19:10:53 I understand now 19:15:18 you can always type in the file ;) 19:15:51 if it's too much work, you can gzip | uuencode it first so it's smaller 19:16:16 and type in the uuencoded version 19:19:56 Wow! That is brilliant! 19:20:01 Why didn't I think of that?! 19:20:45 M9&9A:75S:&]D9G5I9&AA perhaps because you have not typed in many machine-code Spectrum programs :P 19:20:59 hehe 19:21:06 lol 19:21:35 No otherr interface between Spectrums and IAs? 19:21:51 between magazines and speccies anyway 19:22:00 Ahh, of course 19:22:10 until they started distributing tapes with the magazines 19:49:43 I typed in some sid tunes on a c128 (with it's built-in monitor thing) since I had no working cable to transfer them, and the tape-recording method just didn't work. 19:52:23 I still don't know how exactly is a sid tune... the idea I got is that it's a machine-code program directly talking to the sound chip, is that right? 19:53:45 s/how/what/ 20:30:12 Yes. 20:31:03 The sound chip itself is pretty funky, too. 20:31:46 I don't know the details but I remember a few aspects, yeah... 20:57:08 I used what's basically a software emulation of SID for the "software synthesizer" (a bit too fine words for that... thing) in one 4k intro (demoscene thing) that never got finished. 21:02:06 heh, nice... I also planned to use software synthesis in a 4K intro (regular FM synthesis in my case) 21:02:33 ... and it was never finished either :) 21:03:43 I had some trouble fitting X11, opengl and that soft-synth in a 4K elf executable - or actually having any space left over to insert actual code in. :p 21:03:46 I even prepared a .mod converter 21:03:50 uh 21:03:55 mine was for DOS 21:05:35 DOS has the advantage that executable headers are either nonexistent (for .com) or can be shrunk to 32 bytes (for .exe) 21:05:38 DOS is nicer - there's a _lot_ of overhead in the (dynamic linking things and) executables gnu 'ld' generates, but writing them manually wasn't very appealing. 21:05:46 :) 21:05:49 -!- rollman has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:06:11 isn't full sid emulation just too much for a 4K intro? 21:06:19 or even partial 21:06:47 Well, it wasn't really sid emulation, the concepts were just sid-inspired. It didn't try to provide SID control registers or anything. 21:07:00 oh, I see 21:07:27 does the music exist? mine does, if you want to hear it 21:07:44 Hey all 21:07:49 hi GregorR 21:08:10 hm, we're a bit off topic here 21:08:32 ELF headers can be squeezed pretty tight, too - some of the headers can be "interlaced" and code embedded in otherwise-useless parts. I have a (far from completely optimized) "false" and "true" executables, both 76 bytes in size. 21:08:33 Not esoteric enough? :-P 21:09:18 that's it! FALSE is an esoteric language and TRUE is too ;) 21:09:24 AHAHAH I should implement networking in ORK then implement the DirectNet protocol in it :-P 21:09:34 * GregorR convulses in pain. 21:09:36 There wasn't any real music, just test tunes for the thing, I was going to let a more musically talented person write that stuff. I can barely create noise, much less any music. 21:10:06 Er, right, that was pretty off-topic. I guess I should concentrate on that 'structural befunge' initiative. 21:10:10 in my case, the group's musician composed it 21:10:46 yep, back to business :) 21:12:24 Hmm, object oriented befunge... 21:14:18 damn, I didn't remember I had actually posted my bf debugger in my homepage 21:14:57 anyway it will be moved from there as soon as I prepare the esolang page 21:15:27 That thing was very helpful in debugging that regexp-to-brainf*ck mungler. 21:15:41 I'm glad it helped 21:16:00 sorry if it was too DOS-stylish, I'm working on that 21:16:41 So are you going to weave esoteric programming into the esolang page? 21:16:49 Have befunge or PATH running through the background... 21:17:01 Use BrainFuck for
s 21:17:18 Write the entire page in SPL 8-D 21:17:39 oh well, I'm currently using PHP but I guess I could port it to something else 21:17:41 Didn't I write a web server in funge98, or was that just a dream? 21:17:49 Thue comes to mind 21:17:54 lol 21:17:59 hehe 21:18:27 I want to see a BF web server ... obviously you would need to run it as " nc -e bfi httpd.bf -l -p 80 " 21:19:21 I'm afraid of nc after looking at the code, now I use tcpserver 21:21:10 I think I added an SCKE extension (with a 'peek for incoming data' command) to augment the SOCK extension, for the web server, but I'm not sure I ever got around to writing the server itself. 21:21:29 (Actually I've been wanting to do some dynamic web-stuff with Scheme, but that's not esoteric either.) 21:22:50 I think I've seen some Debian package which was actually a Scheme script somewhere... I don't remember what it was right now 21:22:52 pgimeno: Original nc or GNU netcat? 21:23:05 gnu netcat? probably not 21:23:13 the one shipped with Debian 21:23:20 I believe GNU netcat was a total rewrite. 21:23:22 Might be better. 21:23:38 no wonder, it was a mess 21:24:16 * pgimeno files that info somewhere in the queue for later processing 21:39:45 pgimeno: I just figured out what you meant so many messages ago about "currently in PHP but I could port it to something else" 21:40:03 I actually meant in the design of the page, have little bits of esoteric programming snuck in, not in the language the page is written in. 21:40:56 do you mean as a background or something? 21:42:02 oh, I have just reread your sentence 21:42:12 now I understand it better 21:50:28 -!- KnX has joined. 21:50:38 'lo 21:51:10 re KnX 21:51:28 And behold! 21:53:28 i'm searching an efficient implementation for an arbitrary-dimentional funge-space in C, if someone has a good idea ... 22:15:43 is there someone alive for a fingeprint-related question ? 22:15:47 +r 22:28:02 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:41 fingerprint? 22:29:02 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:29:56 if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented 22:30:31 it's funge-related 22:30:59 sorry then, I can't help with that 22:33:05 if i remember well my maths , "if ( if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented ) is true , then ( if i'm funge-oriented then it's not funge-related ) is true" , sounds like murphy's law 22:34:14 hehehe, you're pretty much right I'm afraid 22:38:00 I could get into Befunge ... but I've always found it to be not quite esoteric enough ;) 22:38:03 Just kidding of course. 22:38:53 compared to other esoteric , he is very easy to learn and usable , making it less esoteric i think 22:39:26 FYI, I have a project dedicated to a Malbolge program 22:40:17 that's also very easy to learn and usable, ya know 22:40:20 I don't know malbolge very well, if you have an URL with specs ... 22:40:25 See, now, Malbolge is just TOO esoteric for me. 22:40:31 heh 22:40:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming_language 22:41:23 See, BF is the PERFECT esoteric language, because it's just minimalist. It's not that it's necessarily designed to hinder you, it's just designed with the minimum number of features to function. 22:41:44 * pgimeno raises hand 22:41:57 I think that Thue meets these characteristics too 22:43:04 (I also love Thue) 22:44:49 it's my non-deterministic language of choice 22:45:41 if you're very Thue-oriented you can hand-compile Thue programs in most current languages 22:46:36 (C has just such stupid string handling philosophy that doesn't fit well in that cathegory) 22:47:25 -!- Keymakere has joined. 22:47:34 yeah, brainfuck is perfect 22:48:20 (as well, finally found a working dvd player; VLC media player. had to quit the movie because i started to fall asleep :)) 22:48:25 As per usual, Gregor is the only person who actually LIKES pointer manipulation. 22:48:38 (it's not boring but that always happens) 22:48:44 Heheh 22:48:45 good! 22:48:59 btw, could someone tell me how thue works? 22:49:04 Same 'ere 22:49:07 I need a spec 22:49:08 i've been trying to understand it couple of times 22:49:14 but i don't understand it 22:49:17 GregorR: I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too low-level for certain things 22:49:23 the official manula doesn't tell almost anything 22:49:23 Ahhhh 22:49:24 Agreed 22:49:37 -!- Keymakere has changed nick to Keymaker. 22:49:38 Thue is just pure and mere string substitution 22:49:45 hi Keymaker btw 22:49:52 hi :) 22:50:03 so, what does that mean? 22:50:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue_programming_language 22:50:32 oops, follow the link to the spec, please 22:50:35 ( understanding how thue work is a thing, but understanding how to work with thue .... :/ ) 22:50:39 well, doesn't explain much :) 22:50:48 oh ok 22:51:25 http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/thue/doc/thue.txt 22:51:27 sorry 22:51:45 that is the manual i meant 22:51:57 it doesn't explain almost anything (at least to me) 22:52:08 hold a sec 22:52:21 Keymaker: Have you taken a logic programming class? 22:52:29 nope 22:52:41 haven't had any chance 22:52:50 Yeah, that goes well into the deep pit of logic programming :-P 22:53:03 Wooh PROLOG, right on the edge of esotiridom. 22:53:06 :) 22:53:34 like there isn't even mentioned any 0 or 1 in thue.txt yet those example programs are filled with them etc.. 22:53:58 the manual sucks :p 22:54:01 http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html 22:54:10 try the examples 22:54:12 Archive.org eh :( 22:54:27 yep, just another one 22:54:38 wow 22:55:14 there are a couple find-and-replace rules and a starting string, that's all 22:55:19 BTW, is the esolangs page going to have something like an editor's choice of languages? 22:55:21 well, there are special rules for I/O 22:55:57 it's not meant to be a generic page, just the stuff I've dedicated to and perhaps a bit of preservation effort 22:56:03 Ahh 22:56:15 and as well there's @ and * and . and stuff like that not mentioned in the manual. well, maybe i should try harder to understand it. but someone should make a thue tutorial! 22:56:26 (or at least explain the language to me so i could make one :p) 22:56:26 It'd be nice if it had a "preservation wiki" where people could just copy in stuff that was in threat of doom. 22:56:31 these are just strings, not instructions 22:56:46 yeah, GregorR 22:56:54 that's a wonderful idea 22:57:01 yeah 22:57:20 is thue turing-complete? 22:57:37 Yeah 22:57:39 calamari set up a wiki yesterday or so... 22:57:50 it is 22:58:03 interesting 22:58:11 i really would like to learn it 22:58:26 * pgimeno is drowning in Mozilla tabs and windows 22:58:30 lol 22:58:48 hehe 22:59:04 Thue definitely looks like you'd need to take logic programming first ... at least learn prolog from some site online ... it's a fundamentally different programming theory. 22:59:14 * KnX wants tree-oriented Mozilla tabs 22:59:21 :) 22:59:31 that'd be great! :) 22:59:40 indeed. pretty nice idea! 22:59:43 I think the tab-maintanence time would overwhelm the usefulness of such a setup, unless the tabs organized themselves somehow... 23:00:02 Maybe by site? (google tabs, esoteric.sange.fi tabs...) 23:00:06 yes, they have to self-organize in some way 23:00:23 yes, GregorR, it's a different paradigm but not so hard to try 23:00:49 maybe replace the "open in tabs" by "open as new root" , "open as child" , "open as sibling" 23:01:10 I guess I'm exaggerating it's strangeness to the average functional/OO programmer. 23:01:51 Somebody run a third conversation, I want to make sure that the people who read this log have no idea what anybody's talking about. 23:02:17 hehe 23:02:42 I'll start a third conversation with self-indulgance: http://directnet.sourceforge.net/ 8-D 23:02:57 OK, about Mozilla tabs, don't you think that the several open options might make simple actions more confusing? 23:03:16 And have you ever heard of Caves of Gorlop? It's written in Prolog and it's rouge-like. 23:03:52 is htat some game? 23:04:33 Yeah. But it's written in Prolog so it's really weird. 23:04:40 i see 23:04:57 Merely because logic programming is probably not the best for rouge-like games :-P 23:05:18 what is logic programming? 23:05:29 Hmmmmmm, brief example ... 23:05:42 T(X) :- X < 3. 23:05:46 T(5). 23:05:52 That's a stupid example... 23:06:09 But that would say that the predicate T is true where X (its parameter) is less than 3, or equal to 5. 23:06:11 I don't think (after a quick look) that Thue is _that_ much like logic programming. Sure, there's the non-determinism, but Thue seems simply to be an "algorithm" for applying unrestricted grammars, whereas I associate logic programming with a set of structured facts, predicates and a unification system for answering queries about it. 23:06:31 Well, grammars and logic programming are sort of related. 23:06:44 Everything's sort of related. :p 23:06:51 Way back when I was referring to logic programming classes, which is where one would generally first learn about grammars. 23:06:53 GregorR: i see 23:08:17 (Merely because grammars are easier to implement in logic programming than in functional/OO programming) 23:11:16 I think here (hut.fi) people usually learn about grammars on "T-79.148 introduction to theoretical computer science", which (for most people) comes before "T-93.540 logic programming". Parsing grammars is another thing, though. (Although intro-to-tcs did have some lecture slides and assignments about using CYK to parse context-free grammars.) 23:13:33 Wow. I have never seen class numbers look so foreign to me ... 23:16:10 I think that Thue is the missing link between Goedel's theorem and Turing's halting problem 23:17:29 (The numbers are of the form -<"section">.. 'T' is for computer science ('tietotekniikka'), and 79 is the theoretical computer science lab, whereas 93 would be 'information processing science'.) 23:20:17 I ought to do some work ... 23:20:23 What with my sitting in a cube ... 23:20:25 Not doing work ... 23:20:41 hehe 23:20:58 what are you doing/should do? 23:21:47 I'm a "Software Build Engineer" 23:21:57 ok 23:22:19 I keep software up to date across UNIX and GNU/Linux systems. 23:22:28 Open source software, specifically. 23:22:35 ok 23:23:19 "But isn't that just apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade?" :p 23:24:37 There are SOOO many stupid issues. 23:24:51 "I'm using Perl 5.004 and I want PerlQt but not with the latest Qt, I need Qt 3.0" 23:25:18 If it was just about keeping everything at the latest, and it was just GNU/Linux, I wouldn't have this job :-P 23:33:33 rgh.. i'm tired. or well, i don't feel very tired but brain doesn't work, so it's time to get some sleep. it's annoying when you can't concentrate thinking some stuff. like for example i would like to program in brainfuck now but can't even get program idea (or well, i have some but can't get those started with this brain). 23:33:47 well, see you today later/earlier :) 23:33:50 'nite 23:34:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 23:36:08 Oh, it's 01:30am localtime already. 23:36:35 Damn time zones :-P 23:36:38 0:30 here 23:36:46 3:30 PM here 23:36:55 I'm clearly on the wrong side of the planet ;) 23:37:21 pgimeno: If you go to sleep now and wake up early, you can be up in time to get specs on ORK ;) 23:37:28 looks like google-translator can't help me , how do you name in english the parts of a finger ( in french it's phallanges FYI ) ? 23:37:50 a phalanx? 23:37:53 ( yes it's befunge-related ) 23:38:04 Being a native English speaker, I ought to be able to answer that. 23:38:15 I'm going to vote knuckle, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for. 23:38:34 http://wordreference.com/ 23:38:44 Being a non-native speaker, wordnet has "1. (3) phalanx -- (any of the bones (or phalanges) of the fingers or toes)" but I wouldn't have recognized that. 23:39:25 what's the plural of phalanx? 23:39:41 wordreferences doesn't find anything for phallanges 23:39:45 I don't think any native speaker would recognize that word, seems pretty, oh, esoteric to me. 23:40:06 mmm, strange 23:40:15 try with a single "l" 23:40:32 and singular 23:40:32 English->French with phalanx gives me phallange , but French->English with phallange doesn't give me anything 23:41:01 i feel curious about they searching algorithm / database 23:41:10 let me insist in the single "l" 23:41:21 oops 23:41:24 (that's the letter L not the number 1) 23:41:42 Phalange. 23:41:56 That's the word you want. 23:42:00 yes 23:42:06 Spelled like that, that is. 23:42:21 Rather than phalanx, which I don't think anybody would recognize. 23:42:28 hehe 23:42:44 thx 23:43:35 it's just because i have always some difficulties to find names for my variables and structs , and for something a part of a fingerprint, i thought about a phalanxprint, but i think it won't help anybody to understand with a name like this ... 23:44:21 heh, shows the hand's bones in the second page 23:45:41 Why not use your native tongue? 23:47:11 i prefer english for C, kind of a standard 23:48:03 I guess I can see the logic behind that - if your code falls into the hands of somebody else, they'll likely at least speak some English. 23:48:13 Because English is taking over the planet >_> 23:48:20 Which is both a good thing and a bad thing. 2005-05-07: 00:04:04 here in Spain people try to make distinctions by language while the rest of the world are making efforts towards unification :( 00:08:09 -!- calamari has joined. 00:08:18 H'lo calamari. 00:08:50 Let's see how immense Gregor's Spanish vocabulary is from the two terms he took... 00:09:03 Me llamo Gregor. 00:09:18 Yo estoy ... adjective. 00:09:32 hi GregorR 00:09:44 err.. hola ;) 00:09:58 Oh, that's the other word I know. 00:10:02 como esta usted? 00:10:03 That makes 5. 00:10:15 Yo estoy bueno. 00:10:26 I don't need "yo," do I? 00:10:30 Estoy bueno. 00:10:43 ?Y usted? 00:11:02 Sorry for mangling your language pgimeno :P 00:11:30 Bien, pero Linux es dificil 00:11:50 Good, but Linux is a word I don't know. 00:11:53 Ah yes, I see. 00:11:56 :-P 00:12:02 hi :) 00:12:08 Gnome, actually.. being a pita 00:12:36 calamari, http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/wiki/index.php?pagename=GeneralDiscussion 00:13:00 I'm a KDE user myself. 00:13:14 They're both very cool. 00:14:25 rather than "Yo estoy bueno" it'd be "Estoy bien" ("Yo estoy bueno" is something like "I look awesome" in local slang) 00:16:46 remember me something ... 00:16:57 spent a whole week in a family in spain 00:17:02 for a school travel 00:17:22 saying "estas bueno" or something like this to say it was ok 00:17:44 at last the ( in fact beautifull ) girl of the home told us about our mistake 00:17:59 :) 00:18:57 pgimeno: It'll last.. it's on my shell, which I use for E-mail, and never plan to get rid of ($5/month how can I beat that?) 00:19:04 is there an official character encoding in FreeNode? 00:19:15 pgimeno: not exactly crazy about that wiki software tho.. seems slow and buggy 00:19:30 calamari: yeah it looks a bit buggy :) 00:19:31 sometimes it renders the page wrong for me.. refresh and its fine 00:19:42 I can't get it right even after refresh 00:19:50 maybe a stylesheet issue or something 00:20:00 yeah.. kinda weird 00:20:54 anyway, in case you plan to maintain it for at least, say, five years I'd go for that 00:23:21 maybe MoinMoin works better than that 00:25:14 somebody knows why programming creativity explodes after midnight ? 00:25:40 because otherwise how else would you be late to work? 00:26:29 I wonder if I could write a quine in 2L (no) 00:26:42 sounds eeky 00:26:51 Sounds like one form of painful death. 02:04:19 -!- rollman has joined. 02:48:20 Hoi 02:48:29 All the Europeans are asleep I imagine. 03:00:12 I'm geeker than that actually 03:01:27 Wowsa. 03:01:31 You're awake. 03:03:09 not for long but yes 03:03:47 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/partialSpec 03:04:02 It's not done or pretty, but it has the basics. 03:04:44 yay! 03:06:16 a suggestion: try to differentiate the language constructs from the regular text, e.g. by indenting language constructs 03:06:27 Good point. 03:06:44 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:08:40 wee, and you say you have a compiler for it?! 03:09:46 did I already say it rocks? 03:09:58 Yes :-P 03:10:01 The compiler is up there. 03:10:05 ork-0.4.tar.bz2 03:10:07 And ork-0.4.zip 03:10:12 0.5 is coming soon... 03:10:22 whoa 03:10:22 It has some nice ascii-code-to-string-and-back conversion. 03:10:39 Don't look at ork.c 8-D 03:10:41 It will hurt you. 03:10:50 you're going to burst my exclamation abilities 03:11:08 burst is the right word here? 03:11:26 I think so, if you're saying what I think you're saying :-P 03:11:53 I think ORK can take it's place as esoterica's needlessly object oriented language, no? 03:11:58 I mean, I'll run out of exclamations before I express it 03:12:05 Yeah, that's what I thought :-P 03:12:23 I really think so 03:12:36 it would not be too hard to interpret, I think 03:13:44 It's just easier to compile to C++ *shrugs* 03:13:52 That way I don't actually have to worry about the object orientation 8-D 03:14:20 hehe, that's what I supposed 03:14:54 I still haven't been able to get hold of any OOPS version 03:14:59 Sad :( 03:15:11 Let's make a pact to keep ORK alive :-P 03:15:42 it's your only potential competitor and there's no instance of the OOPS class so I guess yours is it :) 03:16:09 yours is the OO esoteric language, I mean 03:16:17 Heheh 03:16:21 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 03:16:28 MY BF INTERPRETER (missing features) WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 03:16:38 Once I get loops working, I'm in da money!!!! 03:17:04 in ORK? 03:17:13 Yup :) 03:17:29 It's quite possibly the ugliest thing ever :) 03:17:54 [insert funny exclamation here]! 03:17:58 lol 03:18:16 Well, I'm going to dive deep into loops, so I probably won't be responsive for at least a half hour. 03:18:24 If you're still awake then ... holy crap man, go to sleep ;) 03:18:29 I have to leave now actually 03:18:32 Heheh 03:18:33 Bye 03:18:41 see you tomorrow 03:51:55 -!- calamari_ has joined. 03:56:34 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:56:57 It's official. 03:57:00 ORK is turing complete. 03:57:04 I wrote a BF interpreter in it. 03:57:07 It's 255 lines. 04:08:19 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:13:02 In BF, you can make a program that does a disturbing amount of function and fit it easily in 1/2 page. 04:13:14 In ORK, the fibonacci sequence is 1 1/2... 04:13:20 A BF interpreter is 4... 04:17:58 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/orkfuck.ork :) 04:33:27 I love how my celebration goes totally unnoted if I celebrate in (my) evening. 04:34:36 I'm sure pgimeno will wake up in a half hour at 6:00AM :-P 04:36:01 re 04:36:24 Hoi 04:36:34 Somebody's awake :-P 04:36:55 So how's your x-dimensional funge interpreter going? 04:37:50 i'll stuck with my current idea 04:38:07 a very ugly big hashtable 04:38:21 Mind sending me the current code? 04:38:37 no current code yet 04:38:52 Ahh. 04:38:53 juste code thinking and design 04:38:54 Just design? 04:38:56 Right. 04:39:06 Clearly the better way to go, though I usually don't :-P 04:39:38 it's a good way if i can manage to no-overdesign the project 04:39:49 True as well. 04:40:26 The person writing the curses UI for DirectNet spent a ludicrous amount of time on design, and then scrapped large chunks of it when it didn't quite work right :-P 04:42:29 i'll have to try directnet 04:43:06 Bwahahahah, one advertizement point to me :-P 04:43:16 ^^ 04:43:51 i used the future 04:44:20 wich is usualy exponentialy long according to my todolist 04:45:21 Heheh 04:45:31 As per many todo lists. 04:45:35 humans need a fork mechanism, i am too often in a "A and B are both interesting things to do, wichever to work on first ?" 04:46:02 Problem is, once you've forked you can never recombine. 04:46:06 and the chosen one becones the not chosen one just after 04:46:29 You need pthread_create so that one of them can write it's memory to the other :-P 04:47:45 Real Problem (tm) is, if programmers can fork without some kind of sex or girl limitation, for efficiency sake, world is in danger 04:47:55 X-D 04:47:58 True, true fact. 04:49:06 next problem is "it's 5:45 AM, my bag is not ready, i slept 1 hour, i have a 3 hour long bus travel waiting me in 15min" 04:49:41 And hence, you will inevitably forget something significant. 04:57:27 8 minutes 05:03:17 8 minutes ? 05:03:18 lag ? 05:03:39 CTCP TIME says your clock says 5:59 now. 05:03:58 Oh, what I meant was you had 8 minutes left ;) 05:05:12 oops 05:30:28 GregorR-L: could you please pass a message to pgimeno when you see 'em? I've set up a MoinMoin wiki as suggested, and it works a LOT better. I'm setting my domain to forward http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ to the wiki. 05:31:29 In all likelihood, he will read that from the log. If I see him before you, sure. 05:31:41 either way works. thanks :) 05:33:33 he was worried that it'd be going away soon.. but I have no plans of doing that. I should have the kidsquid.com domain for a long time, so I'll update the redirect if it's ever needed 06:41:43 *yawn* 06:43:11 getting tired? http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ is up and running :) 06:45:51 I'm trying to make binfmt_bf 06:53:22 It would be trivial to make it just run bfi... 06:53:29 I want to actually implement the interpretation in the kernel. 06:54:03 you mean like elf? 06:55:08 Well, the actuall code in ELF files is implemented by the CPU. 06:55:12 Which makes this complex... 06:55:13 right 06:55:18 but same idea as elf 06:55:31 From the user's perspective. 06:55:33 an elf file isn't calling /bin/elf :) 06:55:39 Heheh. 06:55:40 cool 06:55:51 Well, right no I'm failing miserably :-P 06:55:51 didn't realize you were a kernel hacker 06:56:57 I am if I call myself one 8-D 06:58:25 But speaking more seriously, I did make a case insensitive ext3 driver. 06:58:42 Unfortunately, it seems that the plethora of usermode programs still makes case insensitivity a problem. 07:29:21 Grr 07:29:34 I don't think I can do it by any means other than running it through bfi :( 07:36:35 ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? 07:36:35 ? ? [*] Kernel support for Brainfuck binaries ? ? 07:36:35 ? ? [ ] Kernel support for ELF binaries ? ? 07:36:39 ? ? [ ] Kernel support for a.out and ECOFF binaries ? ? 07:36:42 ? ? [ ] Kernel support for MISC binaries ? ? 07:39:18 LOL! 07:39:39 I just found small.c on esoteric.sange.fi on the same day it was posted! 07:39:46 It's good to know that site is still kept up. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:07 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:07:53 -!- Keymakere has joined. 09:07:56 hello 09:08:04 wow; great stuff GregorR 09:08:18 nice to see more brainfuck interpreters in other esoteric languages 09:08:32 impressive work 09:11:14 as well, good job with the manual but i think you should tell more clearly about stuff 09:11:22 (and yeah i know it's not final version yet ;)) 09:11:40 like *every* thing there is in the language 09:12:58 -!- calamari has joined. 09:14:13 hi 09:14:21 hi Keymaker 09:14:25 hiya 09:14:47 anyways, to repeat, i'm really impressed of ORK :) although it's too esoteric for me :p 09:16:25 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:18:05 -!- kipple has joined. 09:55:28 -!- Keymakere has quit ("Freedom!"). 11:44:08 If you just want to run an interpreter, you could do it with binfmt_misc. JIT-compilation of brainf*ck code to native, in the kernel, would rule, though. :p 11:48:58 -!- Keymaker has joined. 11:54:23 moin 11:54:50 hi 11:54:52 do'h 11:54:59 too bad i gotta go now :) 11:55:04 bus won't wait 11:55:06 bbl 11:55:09 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 11:55:12 oops, later 11:57:23 ok, the esoteric-related to-do list is currently: 1) praise GregorR for ORK; 2) make some work in the EsoWiki; 3) make something with my cat program in Malbolge... 11:57:42 KnX: is there such thing as a Fork Theorem? 11:59:32 GregorR: what'd I say... I'm impressed about ORK 12:21:22 calamari, good work! Who's to announce the esowiki to the mailing list? you or me? 12:42:06 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:57:47 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:57:53 cowabunga! 16:58:02 or something like that 17:07:19 hey 17:09:10 so you did'nt get late to the bus 17:09:39 or did it wait for you after all? 17:19:46 hi 17:19:50 yes 17:19:53 or no 17:19:57 it wouldn't have waited 17:20:08 since it's public transport it just goes by if you don't stop it. 17:20:23 but i wanted to go with that bus and therefore had to go, so i could stop it on time 17:20:42 k 17:36:14 bll.. again :D 17:36:17 bye 17:36:20 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 18:58:39 this channel is so insanely busy these days 18:58:40 -!- rollman has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:58:47 amazing 19:00:30 I feel a bit guilty 19:00:41 Keymaker: There was a reason I called it a PARTIAL spec ;) 19:00:43 Hi all. 19:00:49 hi GregorR 19:00:52 I'll only be here for a few minutes right now :-P 19:01:03 heh, me too 19:01:09 I'm going to have some social life for a change 19:01:21 But ... but I thought #esoteric was your social life :'( 19:01:21 whoa 19:01:34 hehe, mostly 19:10:42 later all 20:07:18 It's noon here, and yet you're probably all quite gone.; 20:07:28 Because it's 9PM. 20:08:12 okay 20:08:39 Hey, you're in my timezone 8-D 20:09:07 oaky 20:09:24 And now, I am to eat :-P 20:09:48 oyak 21:35:42 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:35:46 hello 21:37:15 hi 21:37:37 hi 22:09:17 hm 22:09:22 i'm tired 22:09:30 this is unfair! 22:09:44 well. see you in the morning. 22:09:44 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 2005-05-08: 02:28:34 -!- kipple has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:56:07 -!- Keymaker has joined. 09:56:10 hi 11:14:34 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 11:31:50 -!- kipple has joined. 18:02:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:30:59 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:31:03 hello 18:41:09 Hoi 18:41:12 hi 18:41:26 How goes? 18:41:55 good 18:41:59 although a bit annoyed 18:42:09 been trying to get to computer the past 4 hours probably 18:42:17 (finally managed, it seems) 18:42:39 probably around a month or more ago 18:42:48 i was going to finally get that brainfuck related domain 18:42:56 Heheh, what's that/ 18:42:57 with name nested-loops.org or nestedloops.org 18:42:59 but 18:43:05 still haven't 18:43:16 and can't decide name 18:43:57 and to answer your question, i'm planning to start a small brainfuck site 18:44:05 mostly dedicated for my own stuff 18:44:08 Ahhh yes. 18:44:11 and interesting bf related things 18:44:16 :) 18:44:28 but can't make up the name 18:44:33 that is so annoyingly hard 18:45:20 Are you trying to avoid obscenities in the domain name itself? 18:45:40 not sure 18:45:49 i'm not sure if the place allows to use 'fuck' in the domain name 18:46:00 as well, that might in the worst case attract wrong sort of traffic 18:46:08 True 18:46:24 And that is one strange, not-very-legal fetish. 18:46:25 (at least from some bizarre necromancer site) 18:46:37 slow fingers.. :) 18:46:43 :-P 18:47:01 :) 18:47:27 i wonder if there actually is that kind of people (with brainfuck fetish).. i hope NOT 18:49:26 anyways... 18:49:35 anyone done any Cool Stuff (tm) today? 18:49:43 like programs or languages? :) 18:49:44 Just woke up :-P 18:49:46 i see 18:50:05 well, that's a start :) 18:50:23 How about www.plusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightoutputleftplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightminusoutputplusplusplusplusplusplusplusoutputoutputplusplusplusoutputleftplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightrightplusplusplusplusleftleftminusendlooprightrightoutputleftleftplusplusplusplusstartlooprightminusminusminusm 18:50:23 inusminusminusleftminusendlooprightoutputleftplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightoutputplusplusplusoutputminusminusminusminusminusminusoutputminusminusminusminusminusminusminusminusoutputrightplusoutput.com 18:50:32 :D 18:50:41 That way, the URL is a brainfuck program itself 8-D 18:50:45 yeah 18:50:49 i'm too lazy to convert it 18:50:54 It's hello world :-P 18:50:57 ok 18:51:01 i was just going to ask :) 18:51:01 But you could make it say "Brainfuck" or something :-P 18:51:05 yeah 18:51:14 easy to remember ;) 18:51:20 Oh yeah! 18:51:24 Rolls off the tongue! 18:51:30 hehe 18:51:36 but the name is the only problem 18:51:44 it's amazing how i've planned it probably half year 18:51:46 hehe 18:51:50 but aaaaargh 18:51:54 i gotta invent some good one now 18:51:57 www.8ops.org 18:52:02 not bad 18:52:14 Hmm, can a domain name start with a number? 18:52:18 hmm 18:52:20 yes 18:52:26 it can even be only numbers 18:52:34 Oh, yes, it can. 18:52:42 i've thought about including that 8 somewhere 18:52:56 You should buy x.com from paypal :-P 18:53:04 :) 18:53:11 Merely because it doesn't even fit domain rules. 18:53:22 yeah 18:53:44 something power-8 could be fun too 18:53:57 www.thepowerof8.* 18:54:02 hehe 18:54:28 hmm.. length of a web domain is limited 18:54:34 yeah 18:54:43 Yeah, mine wouldn't actually work ;) 18:54:50 yeah 18:55:09 what is the english name for ',' 18:55:13 ? 18:55:14 probably a program to write "BF" could fit? 18:55:17 comma 18:55:18 Keymaker: comma 18:55:23 wow 18:55:27 that would be cool 18:55:29 comma.org 18:55:42 >_> 18:55:51 I don't know that that would be cool ;) 18:55:57 hehe 18:56:01 well 18:56:04 it is already taken 18:56:05 :( 18:56:09 so i guess it's cool ;) 18:56:29 Darn, I lose. 18:56:35 comma.com 18:56:39 Now that would be cool. 18:56:50 yah 18:57:13 seems that even comma.fi 18:57:15 is taken 18:57:17 hm 18:57:24 (well, wouldn't take that anyways) 18:57:25 refreshes my memory of command.com 18:57:31 heh 18:58:06 memorycell.org anyone? 18:58:10 or memorycells? 18:59:17 www.plusplusplusplusplusplusopenrightplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminuscloserightoutputplusplusplusplusoutput.com 18:59:19 That's BF 18:59:23 And I think it's legal 8-D 18:59:29 hehe 18:59:54 http://quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/ 18:59:58 this is the maximum 19:00:07 Sad :( 19:00:13 cool name 19:00:22 i've visited that site 19:00:26 before 19:01:56 neuroprogramming? 19:03:11 rgh 19:03:17 i can't make up any name 19:05:15 BFinland? :) 19:06:03 bf8.org 19:06:07 seems to be available 19:06:58 I still like thepowerof8.* 19:07:09 that is nice, yes 19:08:39 ..but i'm still not sure 19:13:00 bf-hackers.org? 19:13:17 or hacks 19:16:43 grh 19:17:00 i hate thinking names 19:17:17 maybe for now on i will just give a number to everything instead of names 19:17:22 starting with zero 19:18:29 lol 19:18:52 zero.* are certainly taken. 19:19:56 yes 19:20:02 noticed that 19:20:05 :( 19:20:08 not to mention null 19:21:16 grh 19:21:37 i wait, maybe it comes to my mind from somewhere 19:21:43 meanwhile.. 19:21:49 i wonder what i could do now 19:30:30 take time 19:31:00 :) 19:31:02 why not brainfuck.fi? 19:31:26 that would be nice 19:31:27 but 19:31:38 taking a .fi domain costs was it 100e more 19:32:24 i don't have that kind of money 19:33:05 ah 19:33:38 Besides, Finnish (is that .fi?) necromancer porn is still necromancer porn. 19:33:47 yes 19:33:50 :) 19:33:54 forgot that as well 19:34:20 not-necromancer-porn.org? 19:34:25 X-D 19:34:38 :) probably wouldn't be very good choice.. 19:35:20 with Your #1 brainfuck source in web! 19:36:03 procreationOfTheBrain.* 19:36:25 :) 19:36:50 spomc.* -- side product of minimal compiler 19:39:40 You could go with Brainfork and just never mention the Y operator :-P 19:39:54 :) 19:50:49 grhh.. i think i select either of these: bf-hackers or bf-hacks 19:50:52 which one?! 19:51:21 probably bf-hacks would be better imho 19:53:49 ok.. bf-hacks.net or bf-hacks.org ? 19:53:51 i prefer org 19:54:32 Definitely org. 19:54:36 Not that it's a non-profit. 19:54:40 But still definitely org. 19:55:34 yeah 19:56:05 hmmm, there's some field for organization or company, 19:56:52 should i fill there something? 19:59:29 (it's not necessary but i mean just for fun..) 19:59:43 quick, invent some bf organization! 20:02:47 there's the ENSI (and hi all) 20:03:50 hi 20:04:34 * GregorR goes back to the piano. 20:06:02 :) 20:08:04 "Royal Brainfuck Society"? 20:09:29 well, there it is now 20:09:38 i think that's not bad at all, that RBS 20:10:13 Heheh 20:10:23 :) 20:10:38 Pronounced in a STRONG british accent 20:11:38 lol 20:12:22 anyways, you're welcome to visit Royal Brainfuck Society's bf-hacks.org after about a week when it's up ;) 20:12:48 I'll be pleased to be invited to the opening 20:13:30 :) you are welcome 20:13:41 i'll tell about the grand openin' here 20:16:05 i'll pay the bill tomorrow, too lazy to do that today 20:18:25 well, i think i'll go to sleep.. must wake up 6:30.. zzZZz 20:18:31 'nite! 20:18:36 nite Keymaker 20:18:41 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:30:03 Boredom! 21:30:07 CURE GREGOR'S BOREDOM! 21:44:30 is the ORK specification complete? 21:55:19 No 21:55:28 But that's no cure for boredom right now ;) 21:55:33 I prefer to do that on the train. 22:03:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2005-05-09: 00:20:08 -!- rollman has joined. 02:39:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:05:57 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 04:07:01 -!- ChanServ has joined. 04:07:01 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:28:58 -!- kipple has joined. 15:27:01 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:27:04 grrrrrrrrrrrrrh 15:27:09 hi 15:27:23 hi 15:27:35 hi kipple 15:29:17 i paid the bf-hacks.org today (20 euros).. now it's just waiting till they get the domain up and running 15:29:24 (and till i make the site..) 15:29:30 (should probably start soon) 15:29:49 (although the site won't be anything ground breaking by its design) 15:30:35 so, what are you planning to have there? 15:30:41 brainfuck stuff 15:30:47 my programs 15:30:50 links 15:30:58 and info about brainfuck 15:31:05 hi all 15:31:09 hi 15:31:18 your site will be up in time to get linked from my site 15:31:27 :) 15:31:44 I'm currently working in a thorough reorganization 15:31:52 including new content and stuff 15:32:08 i see 15:32:10 sounds good! 15:32:16 btw, what was the url? 15:32:25 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/ 15:32:27 my webserver collapsed last week, so I don't have a site anymore... :( 15:32:33 d'oh 15:32:55 ow 15:33:06 do you have the kipple programs? are they safe? 15:33:10 yeah 15:33:42 I'm paying for a hosting so that's no concern to me atm 15:34:03 kipple: good! 15:34:11 pgimeno: yeah 15:34:48 I ran it on an old 180MHz machine under my bed... 15:34:57 180? 15:35:03 yep 15:35:15 I don't recall to have seen a 180 MHz machine 15:35:29 I underclocked it so it doesn't need a CPU fan 15:35:37 oh :) 15:35:51 hehe 15:35:54 to be more precise I think it runs at 187,5 MHz. Originally 233 15:36:07 cool (with double sense) 15:36:13 what happened to the machine? 15:36:27 did it caught in fire the last week? :9 15:36:35 the harddisk crashed 15:36:42 don't know how much is recoverable 15:36:45 ok 15:36:54 uh 15:36:55 haven't had the time to look into it 15:37:04 any valuable data in there, or just the webserver? 15:37:40 I used it to store a lot of movie files. Nothing important, but nice to have 15:37:48 oh 15:38:15 It had more Gigabytes of HD than MHz :) 15:38:23 if you're lucky your disk crash can have been like mine, just a few unreadable sectors here and there 15:38:25 hehe 15:38:34 :) 15:39:23 yeah, I hope I can recover it 15:39:40 btw, have you tried cpuburn on it? 15:39:50 what's that? 15:39:58 a CPU heater 15:40:11 it just sucks CPU resources, exercising all circuits 15:40:43 what's the purpose of that? to test the CPU? 15:40:48 it's dangerous but if the chip supports the stress you can say it'll support all kinds of normal loads 15:41:01 yeah 15:41:40 I don't think the CPU is the problem. 15:41:52 yeah, I know 15:42:28 I'm just amazed it can run without a fan 15:43:04 It's a very old CPU (1997 or something, I think), and I installed a new large heatsink on it 15:43:06 my machine is also underclocked; otherwise I had to avoid running emulators and cpu-consuming programs during summer, even if I have a big fan pointing to the case 15:43:42 i see.. is there hot there in spain? 15:44:03 not much, about 35C in the hottest days 15:44:09 well, I live in Norway, so that is not so much of a problem... :) 15:44:23 wow 15:44:31 didn't know, or at least remember, that 15:44:44 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/dsc02325.jpg 15:44:59 hehe 15:45:00 hehe 15:45:18 that kind of thing would be nice to have on desk 15:45:30 and to be pointed at me instead of the computer :) 15:45:36 the fan looks static because the flash freezed the image but it's running 15:45:46 heh 15:45:55 I need another one for myself 15:46:17 so, where in the world are you, Keymaker? 15:46:21 finland 15:46:47 ah :) 15:46:55 it's quite strange that there are some others from that country, here, as well 15:47:40 (i mean from finland) 15:47:49 yep 15:47:53 It's only +13.31'C outside, I'm not sure what you'd need a fan for. 15:48:15 only?! too hot :X( 15:48:36 hehe 15:48:38 i prefer the winter temperatures (which were way too high this winter) 15:48:59 well, at least gotta hope for rainy summer >:{} 15:49:20 :) 15:49:32 or well 15:49:37 at least 15:49:43 not sunny 15:49:57 dry and cloudy could be something interesting as well 15:50:02 it's around 12C here 15:50:19 ok 15:50:54 a little poll: what encoding are you all using? to see if we can read each other's extended chars 15:50:55 are the those.. what were those that slartibartfast (correct?) designed? 15:51:00 *are there 15:51:08 hehe 15:51:18 or well i know there are but do you live near them? 15:51:47 fjords? 15:53:19 i guess 15:53:44 Yes, I live among them. (Bergen) 15:53:49 ah cool! 15:53:57 must look nice, at least in pictures 15:54:12 and my web server that collapsed was named slartibartfast :) 15:54:20 :D 15:55:23 do those car roads do allkinds of crazy turns, or are they located near the sea? 15:55:36 in some pictures i've seen them 15:55:44 yeah. some places 15:55:51 but tunnels are also VERY common here 15:55:55 there's better drive slowly :) 15:55:57 ah 15:56:00 tunnels are cool 15:56:16 too bad there isn't much 15:56:19 i think 15:56:27 much what? 15:56:50 i mean many 15:56:55 arg 15:56:57 sorry 15:57:10 i meant too bad HERE aren't MANY tunnels 15:57:10 tunnels? there are loads of tunnels here 15:57:11 lol 15:57:14 ah 15:57:16 :) 15:57:21 i was just typing and didn't think 15:57:27 i meant all time finland 15:57:31 well, they're quite boring to drive through actually 15:57:37 hmm 15:58:12 the worlds longest tunnel is near here (24,5 km) 15:58:16 woah 15:58:23 that's insane! 15:58:31 is there any place the air can get in or out? 15:58:38 or sunlight? 15:58:42 and there is another one just before it, but that one is *only* 10 or 15 or something 15:58:52 X) 15:58:56 there are huge fans in the ceiling 15:59:00 wow 15:59:01 no sunligt 15:59:05 cool! 15:59:14 have to visit norway sometime.. 16:00:02 * GregorR appears briefly. 16:00:09 :) 16:00:12 hello 16:00:17 Hoi 16:00:30 hi GregorR 16:00:35 hi 16:00:45 Wow, quite the crowd right now./ 16:00:50 yeah 16:01:05 Keymaker: wikiepedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%E6rdal_Tunnel 16:01:05 :) 16:01:14 cheers 16:02:11 whoa 16:02:17 that's insanely cool place! 16:02:33 (or then i'm just insane) 16:02:39 or both 16:03:16 :) 16:03:19 anyway, it has stopped raining here now, so I'll use the break to go and by some groceries. see you later 16:03:40 That's kind of freaky... 16:03:43 It just stopped raining here. 16:03:59 and where is "here" for you? 16:04:04 Portland, Oregon 16:04:29 , USA 16:05:00 , Earth, Sol, Milky Way 16:05:07 bye 16:05:36 where? 16:05:42 I'm off too (I said I was here briefly), so, bye. 16:05:47 :) 16:08:55 later 17:25:36 hmm 17:25:42 what should i do; 17:25:53 fit all the stuff on one page (index.html) 17:26:03 or the spread it on several pages 17:26:17 *then 17:29:13 Re encoding, I'm using UTF-8 mostly, except ISO-8859-15 in irc (although this new irssi has some heuristics to intelligently guess and properly show incoming utf-8). 17:29:30 ? 17:29:32 (A small two-hour lag with answering.) 17:29:37 ah 17:29:39 :) 17:32:57 about the encoding... do you see it if I write 12C or Espaa or caf? 17:40:02 gonna take few hours ;) 17:44:05 do you see it, Keymaker? 17:44:44 take your time, I can wait ;) 17:48:25 yeah 17:48:28 i can see them 17:49:26 and even write 2/3 of them.. rdy, eh? 17:49:48 (actually not..) 17:50:05 heh :) 17:50:54 Yes, those work, although I don't think that character before C () is a correct "degree" symbol. 17:51:11 no it's not but the correct one is not in a spanish keyboard :P 17:51:35 I was lazy to launch UniCharMap 17:52:27 it is. 17:52:51 I can't type it with this keyboard, either. 17:53:21 Although I _can_ type a lot of non-latin1 characters. and probably do not work. 17:53:26 _ 17:53:35 hehe 17:53:39 :) 17:54:03 I used to have a working "altgr+l" lambda key, but now it creates this weird "l with /" ł character. 17:54:40 >,_,< 17:54:53 (fish swimming towards) 17:55:14 hehe, looks nice 17:55:17 There's an upwards-arrow here too, ↑. Actually the keymap feels pretty random. I wonder if I still have my customized one somewhere. 17:55:44 it switches to UTF-8 and I can't see these chars 17:57:15 Mmm. They really should adopt utf-8 as a common standard in irc. 17:57:50 I thought it was, but there are a few widely-used stupid Windows clients still not supporting it 17:58:19 this seems to support 17:58:27 (i'm with XiRCON) 17:59:44 I use xchat and had FreeNode configured for UTF-8 but I had to switch because I also chat with spanish Windozers 18:00:36 ok 18:01:38 I used to use XiRCON when it was released, since I had a dual-boot box back then, but I think after version 1.0b4 the development just sorta-died. A pity, it seemed like a nice enough client. 18:01:39 @j 18:21:49 grgh 18:22:00 i need to go 18:22:07 i hope i can come back today later 18:22:15 bye 18:22:21 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 19:11:37 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:16:37 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:16:52 My topic is still there X-D 20:20:53 hadn't noticed that one 20:20:56 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:20:58 fun concept :) 20:21:00 yes 20:22:54 Heheh 20:43:16 hmm 20:47:07 Hmm? 20:49:29 hmmm 20:49:35 i'm just thinking 20:49:36 i guess 20:51:29 lol 20:51:35 :) 20:51:37 Thinking huh? 20:51:43 What an interesting concept ;) 20:51:45 well, almost 20:51:54 :) 20:56:35 Well, I think I'll go finish up my ORK spec. 20:56:40 ok 20:56:46 i think i'll go to sleep 20:56:51 :) 20:56:55 'nite 20:57:04 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:17:36 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/README < slightly updated, but I've gtg :-P 21:18:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 22:52:39 could someone explain me why same-line wrapping is called lahey-space wrapping, i can't find doc about lahey-space except befunge-related ? 23:02:33 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:02:46 To install 2L on this robot ... or not to install 2L on this robot ... that is the question. 23:03:52 robot? 23:06:01 btw, in the compare example in the ORK spec, you say the output will be "greater". But it should be Equal, shouldn't it? 23:07:40 Umm, lemme see how dumb I am :-P 23:07:41 One sec 23:08:07 Umm... 23:08:09 Clearly 5 > 5 23:08:15 I don't know what YOU'RE thinking. 23:08:36 sorry. my mistake. wasn't thinking esoterically enough I guess 23:08:43 Fixed ;) 23:08:45 X-D 23:33:51 Thinkin' about writing a program in ORK? :P 23:34:30 maybe :) 23:34:59 Heheh 23:34:59 You have a lang, right? 23:36:14 That I've made myself, you mean? Yes. 23:36:30 That's what I thought. 23:36:33 Where's the spec? 23:36:35 Kipple 23:36:41 my webserver crashed 23:36:42 That's why I thought so ;) 23:36:47 Hmm 23:37:09 I'll get it up again. wikipedia some info 23:37:39 "has some info " it should be 23:38:59 Hey, I like it >:) 23:39:59 thanks :) 23:40:43 Have an interpreter downloadable somewhere? 23:40:51 as I said, it went down 23:41:01 *shrugs* Guess I'll wait :-P 23:41:06 I could upload the site somewhere else I guess 23:43:08 I have a java interpreter pluss an online applet 23:44:32 Actually ... 23:44:42 I think I'll write a Kipple interpreter in ORK. 23:44:44 Perhaps :-P 23:44:54 that would be great! :) 23:48:59 And in 2L, which is infinitely more evil 8-D 23:50:27 difficult handling multiple stacks in such a language I would think 23:52:31 Very 23:52:33 8-D 23:52:49 http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~runeberg/kipple/ 23:53:04 seems I have lost the index page, but I've got everything else 23:54:29 I like the way the source code looks in 2L. 23:54:43 w00t 23:54:47 Heheh, thanks 23:54:58 A lot of repeating structures thar looks similar, but not quite 23:55:28 That Hello World could have definitely been more efficient, but I was sort of in a rut by the end :-P 23:55:50 since when did efficiency matter? ;) 23:56:42 E-ffic-ie-? Wha? 23:56:46 :-P 2005-05-10: 00:24:43 I fired up my webserver again, and now it actually seems to work fine... 00:24:54 lol 00:25:01 Isn't it nice how that goe? 00:25:02 *goes 00:25:06 maybe it was a one time glitch... 00:25:18 or maybe it will go down in a moment.... 00:25:25 Heheh 00:58:30 Well, off to home now. 00:58:52 I'll start working on that Kipple interpreter when I get home. 00:58:56 bye. i'm off to bed myself 00:59:01 cool! 00:59:02 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 03:16:01 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:16:12 Crapsicles ... Kipple doesn't need to be space-delimited? 03:24:18 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 04:34:34 -!- Keymaker has joined. 04:34:53 GregorG: by its stacks? 04:35:06 well, there isn't said any size for them 04:35:17 but there is naturally limit 04:35:26 in the interpreter as well 04:39:51 Err, I meant that you can do stuff like: 04:39:56 44>a24>b32>c 04:40:01 Rather than: 04:40:04 44>a 24>b 32>c 04:40:21 yeah the first one is valid 04:40:28 blee 04:41:28 as is the second 04:41:34 Well, I knew that. 04:41:36 Makes it a bit harder to parse ;) 04:41:38 :) 04:41:39 yeah 04:42:35 but not that much, just remember that stack names are one character (a..z or @) 04:42:44 and input is digits 0..9 04:43:43 so if there is for example a<99b>c you can 'easily' detect where the input stuff (99) ends, because there comes alphabet (b) 04:46:11 Mmm 04:47:33 as well remember that a stack can be "connected" with two stuff like a>b<499 04:47:41 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 04:47:43 >_O 04:47:49 :) 04:48:00 ORK is not a good language to do this in. 04:48:03 Or anything in, for that matter. 04:48:06 nope 04:48:07 lol 04:48:15 Which is not to suggest that it can't be done. 04:48:18 It can. 04:48:21 yeah 04:48:32 kipple interpreter in brainfuck would be neat 04:48:34 but 04:48:40 the memory size is my problem 04:48:46 i mean the cell range 04:48:48 Yih 04:49:01 since i like the 8-bit environment 04:49:07 :) 04:49:09 The original 04:49:11 The classic 04:49:12 it'd be hard to have 32bit cells in that 04:49:13 yes 04:49:31 I prefer 4 trinary bits myself 04:49:34 to make interpreter for language using 32bit cells would be hard 04:49:40 :) 04:50:16 Actually, 5 trinary bits. 04:50:22 ok 04:50:23 That's 243 possibilities 04:50:29 Pretty close to 255 04:50:37 and.. what's trinary? 04:50:48 Binary is 0 and 1, trinary is 0 1 and 2. 04:50:55 ah yes 04:50:56 0 is false, 2 is true, 1 is undetermined. 04:51:00 lol 04:51:31 Or better yet, 1 is "Uuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......" 04:51:41 :) 04:53:00 well, good luck with the interpreter 04:53:05 i must go now 04:53:12 Bye 04:53:15 stupid other-than-computer-time :) 04:53:19 bye 04:53:19 Heheh 04:53:23 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 05:46:06 -!- calamari has joined. 05:51:32 hOI 05:51:33 Hoi 05:51:39 (Good ol' caps lock) 05:53:46 how's it going? 06:03:00 (ten minutes later, Gregor reappears :-P ) 06:03:06 Goin' good. 06:03:13 I'm busy failing to make a Kipple interpreter in ORK. 06:03:37 hehe 06:03:51 I haven't been keeping track of what's new in here 06:04:06 I'm new 8-D 06:04:37 been trying to simplify a roguelike game to its essestials.. not an easy task 06:04:53 essentials, even 06:05:06 I've been vaguely considering making a Roguelike probabilistic programming language. 06:05:15 GregorR-L: did you create a new language? 06:05:16 Merely because it would be so unbelievably stupid. 06:05:25 Well, lesse ... 06:05:29 Last year I made 2L ... 06:05:33 I made FYB (see the topic) 06:05:37 And I recently made ORK. 06:05:46 oh thats right.. you did the corewars thing :) 06:05:50 Yup 06:06:08 I knew you did something cool recently, I just couldn't remember what it was 06:06:15 Heheh 06:07:40 Only one person has actually written a program to challenge mine in FYB. 06:07:44 Was that you? 06:07:47 I can't remember who it was... 06:08:26 nope.. I was never good at corewars. I meant to play it, but ended up playing C-Robots instead (they were on the same shareware floppy) 06:08:33 Heheh 06:12:27 have you written a roguelike game before? Having trouble with dungeon generation. I need something VERY simple, but simple doesn't seem to be giving good results. 06:13:30 I'm probably crazy tho.. the entire game will have to fit in 32k, and I have 16k of memory to work with :) 06:13:40 DOS? 06:14:00 No, I haven't written a Roguelike - my consideration of creating a Roguelike programming language isn't quite the same as making a Roguelike game. 06:14:32 not DOS.. Atari 06:14:38 Ahh :) 06:14:43 how would it differ? 06:15:02 are you thinking more of a defined dungeon where the creatures just fight each other to the death? 06:15:04 No actual generation of maps - the maps are the programs, so they would be human-made. 06:15:17 I don't know how to explain this bizarre idea properly X-D 06:16:06 what would memory be? 06:16:24 a creature? 06:16:39 I haven't quite figured that part out. 06:16:44 The creatures would be ops 06:16:54 well, it can't be the map, because that wouldn't grow 06:17:03 Yeah. 06:17:05 the map would probably be the program 06:17:13 Like I said ;) 06:17:36 rogue has staircases.. so you can have multiple levels (for loops, etc) 06:17:46 Yeah, I had already thought about that part. 06:18:01 Mainly I'd like to figure out memory before I implement. 06:18:15 creatures being memory would be interesting 06:18:30 because you can create or destroy them 06:18:43 and do operations on them (attack) 06:19:06 operators could be their stats 06:19:09 I was thinking that the "hero" would be the program pointer. It wouldn't be human controlled, it would wander randomly. 06:21:01 it doesn't have to be random 06:21:13 No, but that would make it more interesting 8-D 06:21:22 you could have a sort of simple AI that decides which creature to attack 06:21:35 So it would be predictable, but difficult to predict. 06:21:45 I'd image the maps would be more like mazes with intersections where a decision would need to be made 06:23:27 I've been wanting to write a fractal programming language (Star Trek).. but can't figure out how it'd work.. can't be a superficial BF model tacked on :) 06:23:36 X-D 06:25:29 the program instead would have to be a fractal.. but memory would also 06:25:39 instead->itself .. bad typos tonight 06:34:37 Heheh 06:36:51 * GregorR-L is trying to determine how that works... 06:41:01 if you figure it out, let me know.. or better yet, write it :) 06:41:48 X-D 07:10:18 Yeah, I have no clue how that would work :-P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:42:35 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:51:07 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:36:34 -!- kipple has joined. 13:53:06 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:53:19 * Keymaker reads the log first before writes anything :) 13:53:59 hmmm 13:54:05 interesting ideas there (again) 13:54:33 i have had kinda same idea, although not including any violent fighting.. 13:54:56 like some maze "game" language featuring program pointer travelling in some maze 13:55:02 and doing stuff 13:55:11 depending on stuff there is 13:55:17 but not any rpg crap 13:55:28 i hate those 13:55:44 befunge+tron , everywhere you go, you make a wall , the IP reverse when she meet a wall 13:57:01 ( in fact, it'd do hard to loop with such a language :/ ) 14:00:22 hehe 14:01:33 the loop should rewrite herself while doing her "usefull" job 14:02:41 yeah 14:03:02 but would be pretty hard if every single character/place/whatever would be replaced with a wall 14:03:46 it'd be pretty hard to fit some replace(x,y,with_this_character) into one character 14:03:56 unless the area is small 14:04:32 if there would be for example 20 instructions, it could work the way that the character would be char-20 14:04:50 then mod 10 to get x coordinate 14:04:58 hey wait.. 14:05:19 the instruction should be checked first 14:05:47 with some 255-char 14:06:37 ..and finally the remaining stuff (after 10 or whatever) would be the y 14:07:10 if the area is small this kind of thing would work 14:07:46 and if the instruction would for example just need to move the pointer right then its x and y stuff would be ignored 14:09:05 15x15 area (225) and 30 instructions could work :) 14:09:35 or maybe 15x16 (240) and 15 instructions 14:10:15 but making the programs do any useful stuff, 14:10:27 or making a infinite loop 14:11:06 the instructions would just always need to build the maze back as it were, and the wouldn't get a change to execute any other instructions 14:11:48 or well 14:12:53 maybe having 15x15 area (225) (that includes x and y data), and then two instructions that can have 15 values 14:13:24 that way could be defined what place to replace with what, and what to execute 14:15:16 as well, could be used, that those x and y values could be used with the current instruction, for example it could print out 16*x+y as character 14:15:44 as well, could be that if what-to-replace is 0, nothing would be replaced 14:15:57 instruction zero could be NOP 14:16:09 and all the "walls" could be NOPs 14:16:38 that when program pointer goes on it would make stuff automatically NOP while it goes 14:17:19 with this kind of language highly random looking code could be also made, since the instructions could be anything between 0 and 255 14:17:26 maybe i'll think more about this.. 14:19:20 it would be a bit difficult to write instructions 0-31 in the source code, though 14:22:05 yes 14:22:43 but what about using hex editor with width 16? :) 14:23:58 yes, that would work :) 14:24:47 :) 14:24:52 hmm. how about making a language which ONLY uses control chars? :) 14:25:03 wow 14:25:07 neat idea 14:25:18 that would make some really ugly source code 14:25:27 and the instruction depending from which direction the program pointer comes from? 14:25:33 yah 14:25:53 probably space could be the traditional NOP there, like in befunge 14:26:02 very good idea actually 14:26:26 haha, two insane program language ideas on this channel the past hour :) 14:26:45 * Keymaker starts thinking about this 14:28:03 if i counted right it would give 16 instructions to use (if having four directions and four instructions for them) 14:28:15 huh? four? 14:28:24 there are like 30 control chars 14:28:32 hmm? 14:28:56 0-31 pluss 127 14:29:35 ah i see what you mean 14:29:36 or are they perhaps called something else than "control" chars? 14:29:50 i was talking about a funge style langauge 14:30:05 using space as blank and < > v ^ as direction characters 14:30:26 ah. 14:30:48 that would be cool too 14:30:57 yeah 14:31:44 hmm.. would it be possible with only one character to control the direction? 14:31:51 i mean it would be 14:31:52 but 14:32:01 hmmm 14:32:31 it would cause executing unwanted instructions 14:32:35 and therefore not good 14:33:01 but what about two instructions for moving? 14:33:08 and one for space 14:33:40 what do you mean, for space? 14:33:48 like this 14:33:50 + 14:33:51 + 14:33:53 + 14:33:54 + 14:33:56 + 14:34:19 if the program is in 2d space the instructions can't be this way: 14:34:21 +++++ 14:34:30 if you see what i mean 14:34:35 yes 14:34:44 ok 14:35:20 this kind of thing would allow 8 instructions to be executed 14:35:31 wouldn't that be much like wierd (or whatever it's called) 14:35:43 hmmm 14:35:55 not quite, iirc 14:36:07 (or maybe perfectly :P) 14:37:20 iirc in wierd the instruction was defined by the angles the lines of '*' crossed each other 14:37:40 well, this would be kinda like that 14:37:47 although more user-friendly 14:38:56 (whatever that means :)) 14:39:34 it's usually not the most important thing in an esolang... :) 14:39:51 yeah 14:40:38 hmm. i need food (read: noodles) 14:40:46 i'll be back. soon. 15:04:48 hmm 15:06:32 for information , i decided to separate my befunge core from the funge-space, making a funge-space-librairy which could be usefull for many langages maybe ... 16:14:08 aaaaaaaaaaargh 16:29:22 ? 16:29:53 Of course it's possible to have only one character to control direction flow. 16:29:56 * GregorR references 2L 16:32:16 hmm 16:33:05 yes, but iirc the direction can be change in 2l if the first (?) memory cell is zero or non-zero 16:33:31 It's if the current cell - and you can force a direction, like so: 16:33:34 (Copy/paste) 16:33:52 ok 16:33:53 + 16:33:53 + 16:33:53 > + 16:34:06 In one case, it will turn right. In the other case, it will turn left-left-left 16:34:32 but in 2l there is one command to execute the instruction, right? 16:34:38 Yeah 16:34:39 and other to control the pointer 16:34:43 i was talking about 16:34:53 language where those would the same 16:34:57 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 16:35:10 Only one command, period. 16:35:11 Hmmm. 16:35:43 like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer 16:36:04 and as far as i can see there is no way to make that kind of language working without it executing un-wanted instructions 16:36:13 Where as in its x-y location? 16:36:27 sorry? (i can't understand) 16:37:03 Keymaker like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer < do you mean the direction it comes from or the location of the next instruction? 16:37:20 the direction where it comes from 16:37:24 Ahhhhhh 16:37:26 if it for example comes from left 16:37:46 Yeah, I can't see how that could work, since you would be forced into a direction that wouldn't necessarily do what you want. 16:38:42 or more like forced to execute unwanted instruction while trying to get the correct direction 16:38:50 Right 16:39:04 but if having two guiders 16:39:18 like for example 16:39:29 '|' and '-' 16:39:59 wait.. i try to think what i was about to say 16:40:02 :) 16:40:08 Heheh 16:41:00 hmm 16:41:02 forget :) 16:41:07 that won't work 16:41:26 I think you would need at least 2. 16:41:30 Hence the beauty of 2L ;) 16:41:34 :) 16:41:36 yeah 16:41:43 that is what i thought 16:43:43 anyways 16:43:50 hmmm 16:44:17 no 16:44:18 hmm 16:44:27 i think it still doesn't work that way 16:44:42 like if the direction-changers execute instruction 16:44:56 you still get unwanted instructions even if you have two of them 16:45:16 You could have a pure-direction-changer and an op-direction-changer. 16:45:43 hmm 16:49:51 anyways; GregorR: did you read the log? 16:49:58 about that maze language ideas? 16:50:44 Briefly, but I didn't quite get it :-P 16:51:05 Unless you're talking about me yesterday ;) 16:51:20 But that was just an allusion. 16:51:27 heh :) 16:51:35 yeah, i was solo-talking 16:51:39 pretty muchly 16:51:47 probably just writing what came to my mind :) 16:51:54 Heheh 16:52:01 esotalk :) 16:52:06 Well, I've got to go to school. 16:52:09 See ya later. 16:52:10 ok 16:52:12 yah 17:03:29 hey 17:03:44 hi 17:04:46 {kipple the human}: could you please tell me if {kipple the language} is imperative and 1D? 17:05:14 hmm 17:05:29 what's the definition of imperative? I think it is, but not quite sure 17:06:00 * kipple is looking up in wikipedia 17:06:02 I'm not sure I could make up a definition 17:06:14 but for example, BF is 17:06:18 well, it is definately not functional 17:06:19 Befunge is as well 17:06:41 is it deterministic? 17:06:45 arg. wikipedia is so incredibly slow 17:06:56 yes 17:07:05 k thanks 17:07:35 * pgimeno files the Kipple bookmark into his imperative 1-D deterministic languages folder 17:07:47 the stacks are 1 dimentional, but since there are several stacks one could perhaps argue that it is 2D? 17:08:07 hi pgimeno 17:08:09 no, I mean, befunge is a 2D language but (say) pascal, basic, etc. are 1d 17:08:14 it is 1D 17:08:25 (in case that isn't answered yet :)) 17:08:28 are there many langs that are not deterministic? I only know of Java2k I think 17:08:30 :) 17:08:42 not many... I can recall of three right now 17:08:48 ah, yes you mean dimentions in the source code of course 17:08:56 yeah 17:08:57 that is, the IP 17:09:19 Java2K, Thue and Whenever are the non-deterministic ones I remember right now 17:09:31 :D 17:09:51 well, there's Sartre which I'm not sure about 17:12:19 regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox? 17:12:39 nope 17:12:41 what's that? 17:12:53 it's a guessing game 17:12:57 hmm 17:13:19 well.. what kind of? 17:13:21 there's a 2D "black box" (grid) and you throw "rays" 17:13:33 hmm 17:13:38 there are four marbles within the board 17:14:25 depending on which position the ray reappears, it gives information on where the marbles are 17:14:39 hm 17:14:50 the aim is to guess where the marbles are using the least possible number of rays 17:15:25 ok 17:15:33 i can see now 17:15:38 is it a computer game 17:15:40 or real world game? 17:15:54 computer 17:15:58 'ok 17:16:06 (i thought so :)) 17:16:28 sounds like a KDE game. am I right :) 17:16:43 you are :) 17:16:46 yeah 17:16:55 i guessed something like that as well 17:17:05 linux game makers are not too creative when it comes to naming games.... 17:17:13 hehe 17:17:51 the relevant part is this: 17:18:06 ..? 17:18:09 :p 17:18:35 if you throw a ray from the left side of the box, it bounces in a straight angle when the marble is at the northeast of the cell 17:18:54 it's hard to explain 17:19:47 anyway it would be a way to make a program pointer bounce in any arbitrary direction, if the positions to its relative left or right can be examined 17:19:53 like this: 17:19:59 + 17:20:13 ********* 17:20:18 * 17:20:20 * 17:20:30 got it? 17:20:34 no 17:20:38 wait a sec :) 17:20:55 no 17:21:04 heh, well 17:21:07 :) 17:21:10 the *'s are program flow 17:21:13 ok 17:21:15 the + is the direction changer 17:21:23 ok 17:21:35 the straight angle turn is due to the presence of the direction changer 17:21:45 ah 17:22:01 now i see 17:22:18 (that's how a ray bounces in KBlackBox too) 17:22:25 ok 17:23:09 in KBlackBox, this one makes the ray to return the way it came: 17:23:17 + 17:23:25 ********* 17:23:30 + 17:23:45 as well as this one: 17:23:48 *********+ 17:24:15 that idea could be used with a 2D esoteric language 17:24:19 yeah 17:24:24 pretty cool! 17:24:58 how about executing instructions? 17:25:11 should some another character be used to that? 17:25:21 that's beyond the scpoe of this document ;) 17:25:25 hehe 17:25:26 scope 17:25:29 i have an idea 17:25:36 oh wait.. 17:25:42 yes 17:25:51 like the changing of the instruction could happen 17:25:57 with different turnings 17:26:01 or whatever 17:26:08 depending how the program pointer goes 17:26:13 and instruction would be executed 17:26:25 when the pointer goes back where it came 17:26:30 like in this *************+ 17:26:56 this kind of language would take extremely much space but at least beat GregorR's 2L ;) 17:27:32 hum, a problem with going back in the same way is that the whole way would be undone 17:27:48 arg 17:27:51 :D 17:27:56 unless... 17:28:14 ugh, that idea looks sooo ugly :) 17:28:20 :) 17:28:30 ... the pointer "pushes" the + sign at the time of bouncing 17:28:44 :D 17:28:54 so you actually have a self-modifiable program, la Malbolge 17:29:05 hehe 17:29:57 * pgimeno eeks away of his own idea 17:33:17 some day I will take a look at the Alpaca system 17:33:22 what's that? 17:33:30 a CA engine 17:33:38 ? 17:33:42 CA = Cellular Automaton 17:33:44 ah 17:33:57 haven't heard of any Alpace engine 17:34:01 is it some esolang? 17:34:11 it's in cpressey's site 17:34:18 ok 17:34:50 http://catseye.webhop.net/ 17:36:17 couldn't get there for some reason 17:37:11 it's a redirector to http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ 17:38:17 can't get there either :) 17:38:31 oh 17:38:43 anyways; 17:38:50 take a look at this: 17:38:51 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/preview.png 17:39:05 i'm trying to make a really simple design for my brainfuck site 17:39:10 are the colours ok? 17:40:20 not counting the PREVIEW sign they are :) 17:41:40 ok :) 17:41:43 so it's ok? 17:42:28 I think so 17:43:51 ok 17:43:53 :) 17:45:24 the simplicity of your design can't beat the simplicity of my lack of design ;) 17:45:30 hehe 17:46:04 I'm not very aesthetically-oriented, I just care about contents (in case you haven't noted) 17:46:22 uh, time to go home 17:46:25 bbiab 17:47:13 ok 17:47:29 yeah, i care most about the content as well 17:49:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 17:49:43 Keymaker: You're living in a dream world ;) 17:50:18 (/me was just remembering about the 1-command language) 17:51:09 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 17:51:11 :D 17:52:02 :-P 17:52:26 So, does probabalistic count as nondeterministic? 17:52:37 Silly question, really. 17:52:39 i assume so :) 17:52:40 Since it is :-P 17:52:55 * GregorR-L is seriously considering making a programming language based on NetHack :-P 17:53:19 so.. "Tell Me More!!1" 17:54:41 lol 17:54:43 Basically... 17:54:47 Your program pointer is the @... 17:54:53 i see 17:54:54 You build a little array of rooms... 17:54:57 And the @ wanders... 17:55:01 Every monster is an op... 17:55:13 And the doors could be one-way, or only-if-condition, etc, to make loops. 17:55:24 sounds pretty neat 17:55:40 Unfortunately, I haven't quite figured out some of the stranger attributes :-P 17:55:46 ok 17:56:21 Mainly, do I want the data pointer to just be in a stack or tape... 17:56:29 Or do I want the data pointer to be your pet >:) 17:56:42 :) 17:56:47 pet of course 17:57:28 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 17:57:34 NetHackLang = NHL 17:57:39 Bad short form :-P 17:57:47 I guess that means nothing to a non-north-american. 17:57:50 hehe 17:57:57 well i know what it is 17:58:01 but don't care at all 17:58:18 lol 17:58:19 ice hockey's boring :) 17:58:29 Exactly why I don't want that shortform ;) 17:58:35 :D 17:59:54 I'll call it ... The Rogue Language 18:00:05 Read with the proper emphasis, that's pretty cool :-P 18:00:13 :) 18:08:41 AHAHAHA 18:08:45 hm? 18:08:53 We're studying turing machines in the class I ought to be paying attention to right now :-P 18:09:00 And I can't keep my mind off of brainfuck 18:09:26 2) A TM can be described by: 1) A graph. 2) A brainfuck program 18:09:27 :-P 18:09:57 wow 18:10:04 did they say that? 18:10:08 No ;) 18:10:11 d'oh 18:10:27 very cool 18:10:29 :-P 18:10:33 interesting stuff you have there 18:10:43 is it just a normal university? 18:10:50 Yeah 18:11:08 i hope i can find a good place to get learnin' that stuff the next year 18:11:15 Heheh 18:11:23 or well actually after ~1.5 years 18:11:25 :) 18:45:25 well 18:45:33 must go. see you tomorrow :) 18:45:37 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 19:40:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:47:27 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 20:02:13 -!- puzlet has joined. 20:11:40 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:11:44 hi 20:11:50 managed to get back for a while 20:19:31 re 20:19:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:19:44 * pgimeno is right now working in his own esoteric language 20:20:21 hmm 20:20:24 that sounds good 20:20:35 any break-through yet? 20:20:41 soon :) 20:20:48 it'll be Bitxtreme 20:21:16 neat neame! 20:21:21 mmh.. extreme.. 20:21:24 it'll be *called* Bitxtreme 20:21:32 'ok 20:21:36 it's actually a company's name but who cares 20:21:40 hehe 20:54:04 well.. good nite 20:54:15 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:04:54 done! 21:04:58 more or less 21:05:02 a few bits missing 21:06:01 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php 21:31:44 oops, gtg, see you tomorrow 21:39:07 It seems to already have the 0 and 1 bits, what more do you need? 21:41:46 well, I'm also working in some subtle I/O details... you know, I don't want this spec to be imprecise or incomplete like that of HQ9+ which lacks a specification of the initial accumulator's value 21:42:54 I think that's worth being mentioned as well 21:50:55 updated; now I'm really off, bye 23:24:27 -!- puzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 2005-05-11: 00:08:05 I find it hard to believe that Bitxtreme is turing complete ;) 00:08:39 I find it hard to even understand how it is supposed to work.... :) 00:12:34 so, how did the ORK Kipple interpreter go? any progress? 00:14:22 Still working on it. 00:14:26 It reads it in, but has issues parsing. 00:14:33 so, it is doable? 00:14:38 Certainly. 00:14:43 ORK is powerful. 00:14:50 Powerful and unbelievably, mind-blowingly stupid. 00:15:50 Besides ... hypothetically, any turing complete language COULD interpret kipple (with much pain), and ORK is turing complete... 00:16:22 yes, I didn't ask if it was *possible*. only if it was doable 00:16:50 that is, not extremely hard... :) 00:17:50 so, do you intperpret the source directly, or tokenize? 00:18:07 Tokenize. 00:18:28 I'm getting chunks with meanings, then walking through and interpreting the ones that are command chunks. 00:34:20 Based on bitxtreme, I present unitxtreme: 00:34:27 It works just the same but the bits are unary. 00:34:42 So you can only have one command, and it can only have one value. 00:34:49 There is only one register and only one memory location. 00:35:10 The command is 0, and it sets the value of the current memory location to 0. 00:36:13 :) 00:43:01 the ork compiler doesn't handle Windows EOLs 00:43:15 not much of a problem, but I thought you should know 00:43:41 Am I expected to care if it works on Windows? 00:43:45 ;) 00:43:59 as I said, no big deal 00:44:09 Hmm, I thought cin was set to some sort of translation mode normally >_> 00:44:19 Mayhaps I'll fix that sometime. 01:15:11 is ORK case sensitive? 01:17:04 It wouldn't be unnecessarily grammatically correct if it wasn't 8-D 01:17:40 Read: Yes it is. 01:18:49 Right now the compiler lets you get away with some things that it ought not, but it does insist upon proper capitalization. 01:38:21 when I pass an object as an arg to a function, how do I reference the objects variables? 01:50:55 I never put that in the spec, did I? 01:50:58 Wowsa. 01:51:20 If it was a foo that had a bar which was a number: 01:51:34 a is the foo's bar. 01:51:40 Hmm, does that work? 01:51:53 Actually, I think that might be screwed up ... 01:52:45 Yukksi. 01:52:53 doesn't seem to work 01:53:06 OK, I'm going to fix that and post a new version some time tonight 8-D 01:53:10 But that's how it should work. 01:53:14 ok 01:53:59 gotta go to bed anyways. 01:54:07 good night 01:54:09 Heh 01:54:10 Bye 02:27:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:44:27 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:49:53 -!- Keymaker has joined. 04:51:06 pgimeno: cool language! 04:51:27 you should probably change '(FIXME: work on the description)' to something, though 04:51:36 i don't yet see very well how it works 04:51:40 but i wanna get coding!!!!!!!!!! 04:51:49 1 bit memory size is really cool 04:52:01 i've planned making a brainfuck variation with that 04:52:08 although it's done couple of times already 04:52:19 but i want to make programs for that kind of memory cell range 04:52:43 maybe you could make some simple sample program there, for example how to print 'Hi' ? 04:56:49 and how to do loops? i need more info! 05:01:49 -!- calamari has joined. 05:04:29 pgimeno: Am I confused, or is there a maximum of two instructions, and hence it's impossible to do anything useful. 05:04:35 (This being because the program pointer is a bit) 05:14:01 probably there is array of those bits 05:14:03 dunno 05:14:16 at least i can see no other way this being turing-complete 05:15:23 I get the feeling that it's more of ajoke than pgimeno has let on ;) 05:15:32 Oh no! (/me just read your bit about beating 2L ;) ) 05:15:36 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 05:15:42 lol 05:15:43 :) 05:15:45 it was a joke 05:16:16 but if you read on we found one solution how to use just one instruction 05:16:26 pgimeno got if from some game :) 05:16:51 with that would be possible/necessary to make self modificating programs 05:17:03 Hmm, I didn't see that... 05:17:10 wait a bit 05:17:50 Oh dear! 05:17:54 * GregorR just saw what you're saying. 05:18:12 start here 05:18:13 16:13:21 regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox? 05:18:13 A 90-degree turn would do one thing, a 180-degree turn another, a 270-degree turn yet another. 05:19:25 And the turns would be pushed back when the program pointer hit them, a la Sokoban. 05:19:37 :) 05:20:02 Hmm. 05:20:02 it really interesting what kind of languages are possible 05:20:12 I need a moment to process whether that would work or not... 05:20:22 Ah, here's a problem: how do you do program logic? 05:20:29 what logic? :p 05:20:32 If-then 05:20:36 i see 05:20:39 hmm 05:20:55 blame pgimeno, not my idea! *flees away* 05:20:59 lol 05:21:01 :) 05:21:01 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 05:21:03 hmm 05:21:06 not sure 05:21:06 Now this is stuck in my head. 05:21:13 bwahahaha 05:21:50 then we succeeded to trap someone's mind to do the actual work and let us bask in the actual glory. :) 05:22:28 When it's released as "Gregor Richards presents: 1L! (Some concepts may have been partially attributed to some abstract work by Keymaker and pgimeno)" You'll think differently ;) 05:22:42 :) 05:22:54 lol 05:22:58 BING! Got it 05:23:05 wha how? 05:23:10 >:) 05:23:32 I would tell you.... 05:23:34 No ... 05:23:35 No I wouldn't. 05:23:39 tell 05:23:42 or.. 05:23:42 :-P 05:23:45 tell :p 05:23:52 I'm still not positive if it would work, BUT 05:23:56 0k 05:24:10 1) Straight-on = if. If the cell is non-zero, do NOT turn, but go through 05:24:27 yes 05:24:29 2) Right turn = op. Same ops as in 2L, same overloading 05:24:30 that sounds reasonable 05:24:38 3) Left turn = opless turn 05:24:47 If you stack two +s, they can't be pushed 05:24:50 A la Sokoban 05:25:16 is there language called Sokoban as well? 05:25:24 No. 05:25:27 ok 05:25:28 But it's a good game 8-D 05:25:31 :) 05:26:03 Hmmm, I see an issue... 05:26:35 It would be quite difficult to handle the if-not case, because you would be back where you came from ... pushing blocks would help, but loops would still be difficult... 05:26:53 really difficult 05:27:07 i think this language is too bizarre for me 05:27:12 HEY! DING AGAIN! Gregor's on a roll! 05:27:22 at least i wouldn't have the nervers :) 05:27:27 lol 05:27:29 GregorR: see the wierd language 05:27:31 Straight-on divides the program pointer - it will continue going in the same direction, but will be offset. 05:27:39 calamari: I don't count that ;) 05:27:43 why not? 05:27:45 calamari: Since an angle is an op. 05:27:50 calamari: So it actually has several. 05:28:23 It's an interesting and esoteric language, yes ... 05:28:27 But still has more ops than the winz0r 05:28:34 if you're counting turns, then that's an angle too :) 05:28:59 Damn, you're totally right. 05:29:06 + placed differently would be a different op. 05:29:21 but... who cares? have fun with it :) 05:29:24 I'm OK overloading by direction (obviously) ... 05:29:37 It's not my original idea :-P 05:29:45 So I could drop it at any time! 05:29:49 :) 05:30:12 better to do that, it's too evil 05:30:33 Pff, I can implement this from the 2L code base in a matter of minutes. Might as well. 05:30:44 NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! 05:30:57 how about frequency analysis of the "wave" to determine opcodes? hehe 05:31:05 hehe 05:31:27 what the programs should look like? 05:31:30 I was thinking that it would be nice to have a BF-ish language, but, the operations would do insanely complex algorithms, making it incredibly difficult to do simple addition, etc ;) 05:31:52 hehe 05:31:55 keymaker: probably big sine waves :) 05:32:01 yes 05:32:11 but what they would look like in the source code? 05:32:11 or maybe square waves 05:32:33 oh.. let the programmer choose 05:32:42 whitespace vs whatever they like 05:38:30 nooooooooo aaargh 05:38:37 must go to school 05:38:43 grrrr 05:39:19 well, see you much later.. 8+ hours 05:39:25 * Keymaker dies 05:39:27 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 05:44:25 OMFG, this language is stupid 05:54:04 go write some Malbolge and you'll feel better 05:57:45 lol 05:57:56 1L is seriously more stupid than Malbolge :-P 05:57:59 that question about what character to use must have been kicking around in my subconscious 05:58:46 the interpreter/compiler could figure out the language as it went along 05:58:57 based on context (if there is enough context) 05:59:09 kinda like code breaking 05:59:12 Some languages are quite difficult to tell apart. 05:59:24 * GregorR is unsure what you're talking about btw ;) 05:59:29 oh.. sorry :) 05:59:44 for example if we're going with C, for example 06:00:20 ddsdx <--- break, while, ? 06:00:34 actually, neither.. since it doesn't fit either pattern 06:00:56 fdhas would work :) 06:01:39 I actually meant that I don't know what you're referring to about that question about what character to use ... I'll go read the log ;) 06:01:40 ASM would be better for this, since a lot of old ASM's used 3 character mnemonics 06:01:47 (/me doesn't even remember yesterday) 06:02:11 GregorR: oh.. we were talking for a minute about figuring out the opcode based on frequency analysis 06:02:28 and someone asked what character would be used for the drawing 06:02:33 OHHHHHHHH, right right right 06:04:08 Hmm. 06:04:09 one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF) 06:04:23 Hmm 06:04:42 therefore any file would represent a valid program 06:04:54 You can't have syntax errors in many 2D languages, since no characters need to match. 06:06:17 although, maybe its impossible as well, becauseif I made it so that the program couldn't crash it woulkdn't be turing complete, right? 06:07:01 Hmmmmmmmmmmm 06:07:05 I don't see why not........? 06:07:53 Turing complete just means it can solve any mathematical problem. So long as there's some means of quitting at the end, it doesn't need to "crash" per se. 06:08:08 It could just have a quit operator. 06:09:46 Perfect example: AFAIK, 2L is turing complete (it has every BF operator), however, it has not syntax errors and cannot crash, only exit gracefully. 06:10:17 what if you do this: []] ? 06:10:42 That's not how loops work in 2L - it's two dimensional, so a loop is just a series of ifs that have been drawn in a circle. 06:10:57 cool 06:10:59 I should have said "It has a means to do every BF operator," since it only has two operators. 06:13:58 Hmm, I've gtg for a bit. 06:14:01 I'll be back in a while. 06:20:59 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:56:39 hi 09:57:02 one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF) 09:57:10 I think there's one: Jot 09:57:59 http://ling.ucsd.edu/~barker/Iota/ 09:58:17 it uses the Functional paradigm 11:52:56 -!- kipple has joined. 15:43:22 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:51:54 hello 15:52:07 hi 15:52:45 Hoi all 15:53:02 hiya 16:03:03 That was a truly exciting conversation ;) 16:03:39 :) 16:03:50 sorry.. i tried to open some topic 16:03:58 but didn't invent any 16:04:04 Heheh 16:04:11 btw, is there any other word for 'invent'? i'm tired using that one 16:04:19 Create .... 16:04:24 Think up 16:04:30 ah that's good 16:04:54 Lesse what thesaurus.com says 8-D 16:05:01 ok 16:05:27 Or the quaint "make" of course. 16:05:47 Main Entry: invent 16:05:47 Part of Speech: verb 1 16:05:47 Definition: create 16:05:47 Synonyms: ad-lib, author, bear, coin, come upon, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, discover, dream up, envision, execute, fake, fashion, find, forge, form, formulate, frame, hatch, imagine, improve, improvise, inaugurate, initiate, jam, knock off, make, make up, mint, originate, plan, produce, project, shuck, think up, toss off, turn out, wing it 16:06:05 About 60% of those are terribly synonyms :-P 16:07:41 but there are some worth of using 16:07:43 thanks 16:07:49 Heh :) 16:08:07 now i just hope i can remember those when i knock off something next time 16:08:36 I'm not sure that one works out of a few contexts ... 16:08:50 Since it also means kill in a few contexts *shrugs* 16:08:58 lol 16:10:00 GregorR: 'excogitate' seems to be missing from the list :) 16:10:01 Synonyms: author, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, dream up, envision, fashion, forge, form, formulate, initiate, make, make up, originate, plan, produce, think up, turn out 16:10:14 lindi-: That was just what www.thesaurus.com said :-P 16:10:23 There's a list of basically non-contextual synonyms. 16:10:42 GregorR: use libre dictionary at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ 16:11:21 Oh wow, that's infinitely better. 16:11:55 GregorR: yes, and you can include it on your own page or sell the results if you want 16:12:22 Wowsa. 16:12:31 Keymaker: $25 for this synonym list. 16:12:54 Just kidding of course, though I don't yet know how to fenagle this page right. 16:13:31 GTG to school, see you all later. 16:14:31 ok 16:14:35 have fun >:) 16:16:59 they seem to have changed page layout a bit do you like http://wordnet.princeton.edu/contact more than http://wordnet.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/faqview.cgi ? 16:20:49 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 17:42:56 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:57:38 pgimeno!!!! tell more about bitxtreme 18:00:35 hi Keymaker 18:01:23 I've changed the spec 18:02:41 not still uploaded though 18:03:55 ok 18:03:57 sounds good 18:04:00 (and hi!) 18:05:24 ah.. this day has been nice 18:05:30 i finally got my first gas mask 18:05:34 that i bought from internet :) 18:05:47 wow! 18:05:58 hehe 18:06:02 good in case you suffer an anthrax attack 18:06:08 yeah 18:06:18 maybe i should wear it everywhere 18:06:20 nah 18:06:38 it's actually because of one club that is gasmask-only 18:06:43 (joke..) 18:07:06 seriously, i have no need for it 18:07:13 hehe 18:07:20 but i like their (gasmaks) look 18:07:27 i cna yype today.. 18:07:30 *i can type today 18:07:40 so i decided to start collecting those 18:08:33 well, I just have a dust mask 18:08:57 hmm 18:11:07 looks at this: 18:11:08 http://194.251.244.158/auctionimages/0/d6/517d898f68d5f8435c9a3d8122343-orig.jpg 18:11:13 that one would be cool 18:11:38 (note that i'm not into any military stuff, just gas masks) 18:11:51 (that i don't even concern military) 18:12:21 nice mask! 18:12:23 yeah 18:12:32 it's ~70 years old iirc 18:12:35 looks very alien 18:13:30 yeah, I guess there's a 50% chance that someone wearing it would have been confused by an alien by the time it was made 18:13:59 :) 18:15:05 mmh. my fingers smell that gas mask rubber.. better go wash them :) 18:15:17 heh 18:15:51 so.. 18:16:07 is bitxtreme really turing complete or is it just some joke language? 18:16:21 you can judge better after the update 18:16:25 ok 18:16:34 i really hope it's real! :) 18:19:00 there it is (still not finished) 18:20:23 cool.. i'll go to check 18:21:16 hi! 18:21:38 pgimeno : is it possible to get it too ? 18:22:05 get what? 18:22:05 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php 18:22:09 oh, the page 18:22:12 sorry 18:22:14 :) 18:24:18 "To avoid confusion with other kinds of files the standard source file extension is TXT (for Bitxtreme), which is rarely used." 18:24:21 :D 18:24:43 that's actually just an advance of my next (huge!) site update... I needed to make room for my Malbolge findings and for GregorR's files and a reorganization was needed before it was too late. Reorganizing means also adding new content, and so it goes and goes... 18:24:50 oops, brb 18:25:32 sounds good 18:32:33 the programs are probably written with characters '0' and '1'? 18:32:47 or do i have to use hex editor? 18:33:20 hexedit i think 18:33:32 rgh 18:33:41 writing the source is gettin' annoying on that case 18:33:47 just write a tool to translate 18:33:51 yaeh 18:33:55 i was just typing that :9 18:34:07 write it in BF or something:) 18:34:15 i was just typing that as well :) 18:34:21 lol 18:34:27 great minds think alike.... 18:34:33 yeah 18:34:33 or something 18:34:38 seems so :) 18:35:23 " then PC is increased by two, modulo 2" 18:35:36 this does not make much sense to me. is it a joke? 18:35:56 or a typo 18:37:07 lol 18:37:12 i thought about that too 18:37:20 maybe it's somekind of joke 18:37:42 grrrg.. back in minute.... 18:37:48 2 modulo 2 = 0 :) 18:37:57 exactly 18:38:04 i think it's a joke 18:38:09 but then again the whole lang seems to be a joke :) 18:38:46 :) 18:38:48 as the PC is only one bit, there are only four possible programs (which are the four samples listed) 18:38:52 (i haven't left yet for a minute) 18:39:02 hmm 18:39:13 but probably with those everything can be done 18:39:20 and the input and output was some bizarre 18:42:09 " there is one single instruction: subtract and branch if negative" 18:42:19 haha, the registers can never be negative :D 18:42:43 :9 18:42:48 but notice that is talking about OISC 18:43:01 oh wait 18:43:06 it's talking about this as well 18:43:07 :) 18:46:32 " If the result is negative (the bits are in two's complement representation)" 18:46:54 00? 18:47:02 don't understand it very well , i'm not native english speaker 18:47:15 i don't understand it either, i just guessed :) 18:47:59 does it mean that is A = 0 and P = 1 , then the result is "temporarily" negative ? 18:47:59 if i recognize the word 'complement' i guess it would change something like '01001' to '10110' 18:48:21 don't ask me :) 18:48:48 it's not meant to make sense. 18:54:24 well, must go 18:54:33 have fun! 18:54:35 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 19:54:14 oh well, yes 19:54:43 it is indeed a joke... I thought it was obvious enough after the last changes 19:55:52 doh, I have to leave again, later 21:14:54 re 21:49:38 btw, a two's complement 1-bit number can only represent 0 and -1 22:53:00 Good joke. I didn't notice it at a first glance. Only when I sat down and tried to understand it did I get it... :) 22:54:12 thanks! I'm adding the last bits; the interpreter is online but I'm fixing the links which are broken. 22:56:34 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:56:38 " It has the memory limited to 2 bits for space reasons" 22:56:41 HAHA 22:56:48 Bitxtreme? 22:56:48 reminds me of mod_bf :) 22:56:52 yep 22:56:54 almost done 22:56:56 Heheh 22:57:01 'tis x-cellent 22:57:48 have you seen the apache module mod_bf? 22:57:50 thanks 22:57:56 no I haven't 22:58:07 it's a BF mod for Apache 22:58:09 Scary, scary piece of software. 22:58:24 In the good sort of way *shrugs* 22:58:35 it has an array size of 100 because more is a "waste of memory" :D 22:58:36 cool! is it serious? 22:58:41 oh hehe 22:59:12 I thought of it when I read the BitXtreme spec 22:59:26 http://modbf.sourceforge.net/ 22:59:41 has been dead for more than four years... 23:00:21 wow, cool 23:00:49 I'm afraid the 1.0 project was abandoned 23:01:22 I once thought of doing a web-scripting lang with bf 23:01:34 like PHP with inline HTML, but only BF as code :D 23:03:21 GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I hate either ORK or Kipple (haven't decided which yet :-P ) 23:03:52 heh 23:03:59 what's the problem? 23:04:18 I'm just having a lot of problems writing this in ORK :-P 23:04:27 The code keeps multiplying and multiplying >_> 23:04:29 no kidding :) 23:04:37 It's now >500 lines 23:05:49 damn, my server doesn't allow download of .py files 23:06:10 just rename it .py.txt or something 23:06:14 Why not? Tries to execute it? 23:06:35 not even that I guess, GregorR-L... it returns an Internal Server Error 23:06:41 thanks kipple 23:06:45 Weird 23:06:58 it probably has a python interpreter... 23:10:03 -!- KnX has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:10:12 argh, not even as .py.txt 23:10:32 thats strange ! 23:11:18 does the file start with a line like #!/bin/python or something 23:11:30 nope 23:11:38 try renaming it to HTML 23:12:07 as .txt it works but of course that would be confused with a Bitxtreme source file 23:12:21 I could host the file for you if nothing else works 23:12:29 that is really bizarre 23:12:30 I'm going to .gz it 23:13:02 that will save bandwidth too ;) 23:13:04 so bitxtreme.txt works but not bitxtreme.py.txt? 23:13:11 that's it 23:13:15 strange huh? 23:13:47 haha, I love the fact that examples.zip is 562 bytes 23:14:13 ARGH! not even .py.gz 23:14:17 * pgimeno goes nuts 23:14:55 * kipple thinks pgimeno was nuts in the first place (evidence: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php ) 23:15:01 hehehe 23:15:15 all that's left to do is zipping it 23:20:44 all ready at last! 23:24:46 great :) 23:26:07 though the source files a 4 times the size they need to be. curse these whole bytes requirements :) 23:26:27 yeah :) 23:26:36 I propose a new archive format for bitxtreme programs to save precious bandwith: 23:26:46 With n programs: 23:26:55 bit 0: Header. This bit is always set to 1 to identify the file as a bitxtreme archive 23:27:03 bit 1: Meta-info: place your meta information here. 23:27:11 bit 2 - (2n+2): each program stored sequentially, each starting immediately after the previous 23:27:21 the last bits of the file is padded with zeroes to make a whole number of bytes. 23:27:41 heh, nice 23:27:55 actually, that format was chosen in order to make it possible to write a quine 23:30:05 "then PC is increased by two, modulo 2" - I thought that made clear enough that either I'm kidding or I'm a complete nerd (or both) 23:30:46 anyway, thanks everybody for your feedback which has helped improving the spec 23:32:38 I cought it at that ;) 23:32:45 PC: 0 PC: 0 PC: 0 23:32:57 I thought it was a typo at first 23:33:19 until I noticed that the PC is 1-bit 23:35:37 so Gregor, any chance of an updated ORK soon? 23:35:53 OH, I forgot to upload that! 23:35:55 One sec! 23:37:48 OK, uploaded 23:38:18 and now object variables can be referenced as expected? 23:38:47 Yes 23:38:57 "The object's variable." 23:39:04 uhm, I think I've missed some discussion about ORK 23:39:17 There was an issue with variable reference. 23:39:27 You couldn't reference variables of objects passed as parameters. 23:39:36 oh 23:40:04 do you have an interpreter already, or just the compiler? 23:40:44 Just a compiler. 23:40:52 I don't think I want to try at an interpreter :-P 23:41:41 btw GregorR-L: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/ <- not still complete but now it's ready for expansion 23:43:29 El the w00t 23:43:49 BTW, my last name is "Richards" so the ownership form is " Richards' " 23:44:01 Because English makes a whooooooooole lot of sense. 23:44:02 oops, sorry, fixing 23:45:59 done 23:49:08 -!- calamari has joined. 23:49:24 hi calamari 23:49:30 hi pgimeno 2005-05-12: 00:01:36 greg: is there a not equal comparator in the mathematician? 00:01:57 or do I have to test for both greater and less? 00:03:01 Ack! It's Gregor ;) 00:03:11 And no, because that would be needless 8-D 00:03:18 heh. ok 00:03:22 You have to test for both >:) 00:03:40 How's this design: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html 00:03:41 btw, there is a bug in the loop example in the spex 00:03:48 spec 00:03:52 Grr >_O 00:04:05 If Fibonacci says it's greater then I am to loop. 00:04:11 should be (I think) : 00:04:15 If Fibonacci says it's greater then I am to loop the number. 00:04:29 Nope. The parameter sticks. 00:04:40 Loop loops that very same function with the same parameters etc. 00:04:53 sure? didn't work for me 00:05:23 Hmm ....... just a sec, I've got to go for a few minutes, then I'll be back and we'll discuss. 00:05:48 nice page :) 00:06:00 yeah 00:06:27 I think there is some css propery you can use to make the background code be unselectable.... 00:19:33 *shrugs* 00:19:57 So does the pointer to the image show right for both of you? 00:20:12 yep 00:20:18 yes 00:20:21 Awesome. 00:20:35 Are either of you NOT using Netscape, Mozilla or Firefox? 00:20:50 Opera here 00:20:55 Awesome. 00:21:04 I'm with mozilla though 00:21:06 OK, so anyway, could you give me the code you were having looping issues with? 00:21:16 I have a konqueror handy 00:21:22 it works fine. I just had to give it the parameter 00:22:06 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 00:22:18 I don't see how that could work, given what the compiler does .... 00:22:25 Could you send me the code anyway? :-P 00:22:47 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/beer.ork 00:23:00 w00t 2 99-bottles-o-beer 00:23:13 2? 00:23:37 has someone else made it as well? 00:24:08 GregorR-L: FYI, in Konqueror it does not work well 00:24:11 Nope 00:24:13 Blech. 00:24:27 If Bob the Big Brain says it's greater then I am to sing the song. < this ought to be able to say "I am to loop" 00:24:35 ah 00:24:56 That way, it will loop rather than recurse. 00:24:58 that's a bit unclear in the spec 00:25:07 OK, I'll see what I can do. 00:25:13 pgimeno: I have Konq here, so I'll look into it. 00:25:24 k 00:25:24 it looks like loop is a function 00:26:17 yep, that works fine 00:27:36 Congrats kipple, you are the first person to write a fully-functional program in ORK other than myself 8-D 00:27:45 :) 00:28:55 g'nite all 00:30:54 nite 00:34:53 can you do string concatenation? 00:35:09 The linguist class. 00:35:13 Didn't I doc linguist? 00:35:36 no 00:36:07 are there any examples using it? 00:36:33 found it 00:36:56 D'OH ... I forgot to upload my newer spec too X-D 00:37:16 No wait. 00:37:18 No I didn't. 00:37:19 That's there 00:38:14 sorry. was looking at a local copy :P 00:38:37 Ahhhhhhh 00:42:17 what's the difference between There is [a variable called x] and I have [a variable called x] ? 00:53:34 I have updated beer.ork so it doesn't say "1 bottles" anymore. 00:54:05 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:00:42 None, except that one may sound more PC. 01:00:50 IE: You don't usually "have" a mathematician, since that is a person. 01:01:44 ok :) 01:03:43 anyway, it was a bit painful to write in ORK :) so many words for so little ... 01:09:39 Yup 8-D 01:10:04 writing a kipple interpreter must be cruel.... 01:10:09 Oh yes. 01:10:11 Indeed it is. 01:10:17 BF was pretty damn hard. 01:10:20 And Kipple is harder. 01:10:56 Next: A C compiler! 01:10:59 J/K of course :-P 01:13:32 so how do you manage to do stacks? 01:14:11 I don't think I introduced number arrays in the spec ... 01:14:20 But their design happens to be particularly condusive to stacks. 01:14:42 BTW, writing a complete spec is for the weak. 01:15:06 source code is always a good spec :) 01:15:14 8-D 01:15:21 My BF interpreter uses number arrays. 01:17:21 hmm. is it possible to do something like this: 01:17:27 There is such a thing as a stack item. 01:17:28 A stack item has an item below which is a stack item. 01:17:28 A stack item has an item on top which is a stack item. 01:18:24 Not by the current standard, no. 01:18:34 That would get you caught in an instanciation loop (if you will) 01:18:49 ok. 01:19:55 Gah, foiled by konqueror again >_O 01:20:10 the web page? 01:20:45 hmm. it looks worse in Opera now... 01:21:06 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :'( 01:21:08 What goes wrong 01:21:09 ? 01:21:36 what's the problem (are we thinking of the same?) ? 01:22:11 Mine is just inter-page links not working. 01:22:48 I don't see any links 01:23:07 They're not on the uploaded version yet ;) 01:23:27 the "This is Gregor" text is now aligned with the bottom of the image, and a bit hard to read with the ******* below it 01:23:46 not a big deal though 01:25:14 Oh, it's actually on top of the code? 01:25:28 I did reallign it, I was hoping it wouldn't move around much :-P 01:28:05 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html < is the image stil malligned, and also, do the links work for you? 01:28:13 Just those top few links, to "2L" and "FYB" 01:28:38 how is the image supposed to be aligned? 01:28:58 It should look sort of like it's sitting above the row of *********s 01:29:07 And the label should be at the same level 01:29:16 the links works 01:29:31 w00t 01:29:40 KDE and MacOSX users don't need links *shrugs* 01:30:39 above as in on the line above or as overlapping? 01:30:48 it is overlapping 01:30:52 That's bad. 01:30:59 Hmmmmmmmmm 01:31:31 the rest of the text fits nice in firefox, but not i opera 01:31:38 Hmm. 01:31:41 Lemme test something... 01:32:01 Refresh it. 01:32:03 Any change? 01:32:14 no 01:32:20 Bah 01:32:34 sorry. that should be yes 01:32:44 now the text is screwed up in firefox as well 01:33:06 >_O 01:33:15 IE is ever worse, but who cares ;) 01:33:20 It works in my firefox >_> 01:33:32 the "< This is Gregor" as well? 01:33:38 Yup 01:33:58 I'm running 1.02 01:34:38 Hmm, I'm running 1.0 01:35:50 screenshot: http://rune.krokodille.com/gregor.jpg 01:36:27 Hmm, that's DOWN a line. 01:36:32 I was afraid it would be UP a line. 01:36:34 wait 01:36:37 That's even more strange XD 01:36:47 you fixed it while I took the shot 01:37:14 OK, wait, the current version looks right in FF? 01:37:27 not any more :) one line too low 01:37:36 >_O 01:37:44 yikes. 01:37:45 There hasn't been a change since 5 minutes ago! 01:37:59 it changes when I reload 01:38:26 it switches between two versions rather randomly 01:38:42 bug in firefox 01:39:41 Hmm 01:39:46 1.0.3 seems to work fine. 01:39:50 I'd say 1.0.2 was screwy. 01:40:04 have you tried reloading many times in a row? 01:40:17 Yup, no change. 01:40:26 ok 01:40:34 you running linux? 01:40:38 Yup :) 01:41:04 * GregorR-L is downloading Opera now. 01:41:43 * kipple is downloading FF 1.03 01:42:09 Heheh 01:43:38 same problem :( 01:43:43 must be a windows thing 01:43:45 Damn Windoze. 01:44:03 i suspect it is a rounding error... 01:44:06 This calls for extra sneaksitude. 01:44:38 a non-deterministic web design. that's esoteric :) 01:44:51 XD 01:45:01 No, that's platform compatability at its best ;) 01:45:06 Refresh, see if it changes. 01:45:53 no change 01:46:04 Bleeh 01:46:25 hey! it works in Opera now!! 01:46:35 XD 01:46:47 Even the image and its label? 01:46:50 no 01:46:55 But the text? 01:46:58 yes 01:47:00 That's what I figured. 01:47:08 I separated them to hopefully make only one fail :-P 01:48:18 what if you add an empty line below the image text. with only a   for instance 01:48:25 Heyyyyyyyyyyy 01:48:42 Just a sec, I just thought of a possibility. 01:49:23 Well .. 01:49:28 I just made it fail the same in my FFox :-P 01:51:28 Last try before I've gtg, refresh once more. 01:52:06 fine in FF, not in Opera :( 01:52:22 text is one line too high up in opera 01:53:12 OK, then I think I at least know what the browser consistancy issue is. 01:53:15 I'll work on it on the way home. 01:53:19 See you later :) 01:54:11 bye 01:54:41 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 02:22:51 If my latest iteration doesn't work, I will eat my hat. 02:22:59 Any of them, take your pick: http://www.codu.org/hats.php 02:23:10 Gotta get my laptop up and upload it first though ;) 02:32:56 I'm betting kipple is asleep X-D 02:33:25 how much do you bet? 02:33:33 -$15 02:33:38 Now you owe me $15 02:33:39 ;) 02:33:50 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html 02:33:54 So you're awake at 3:30AM? 02:34:15 yes 02:34:22 Wowsa. 02:34:26 on the way to bed npw 02:34:32 Heheh 02:35:03 damn. your hat is safe ;) 02:35:25 even works in IE! 02:36:28 anyway, good night! 02:37:22 -!- kipple has left (?). 03:22:23 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:09:22 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:18:03 -!- Keymaker has joined. 05:18:08 rgh.. 05:18:24 i saw wonderful dream where i realized how Thue works. 05:18:34 guess does it work the way i saw..? 05:18:37 rggghhhh 05:18:57 by the way; 05:19:05 interesting stuff seems to have happened 05:19:17 cool pages both gregor and pgimeno 05:19:25 as well, nice bunch of hats! 05:19:43 as well, cool to see kipple's 99bob 05:19:56 and, too bad bitxtreme was a joke 05:20:01 but still pretty cool joke 05:55:38 lol 05:55:39 Thanks 05:56:54 :) 05:57:40 I can'te believe I finally got the derned thing working in all browsers :) 05:58:41 it looks good 05:58:51 yeah, web design can be annoying 06:05:36 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 06:13:43 grgrh 06:13:55 stupid day. 06:16:11 you hear me day? you're stupdi! 06:16:13 change!! 06:16:16 :p 06:16:38 come on.. it wouldn't harm anyone to just skip one day :) 06:20:41 Hi :-P 06:20:43 But ... 06:20:48 If today wasn't skipped ... 06:20:56 There would be no 99-bottles-of-beer in ORK! 06:21:40 hmmm 06:21:43 * GregorR-L is still trying to decide whether to publish 1L 06:21:44 you are right 06:21:48 :) 06:21:54 Rather, if today WAS skipped. 06:22:15 yes. but if it would be skipped NOW.. :) 06:22:21 i would avoid annoying shoocl day 06:22:25 *schook 06:22:27 *school 06:22:32 lol 06:22:57 Ahhhhhhhhhh :-P 06:23:07 Ah yes, the miracle of time zones. 06:23:17 heh 06:23:20 yes 06:23:25 they are the most esoteric ones 06:23:33 hey 06:23:36 2d language 06:23:39 Why is it that everybody on this channel is from Western Europe except me X-D 06:23:41 where would be different timezones 06:23:56 hehe we europeans are sramtsest 06:24:02 smartest :) 06:24:05 X-D 06:24:05 anyway 06:24:15 If me not so dumb, me take offense! 06:24:23 lol 06:24:35 somehow the instructions would be executed at different times depending on their place 06:24:39 or something like that 06:24:42 lol 06:24:45 involving annoying time zones 06:24:55 And actually ofset by hours, so it could take as many as 24 hours to run a small program. 06:25:05 lol!!!! 06:25:42 not to mention making the interpreter do some stuff on background, like tirelesly computing pi to slow the work of computer.. 06:25:50 :) 06:27:45 lol 06:30:00 at least the breakfsat (that i usually skip) is good today: pizza from yesterday and some coca 06:30:06 (cola= 06:30:17 lol 06:30:22 :) 06:30:38 Hmm ... somewhere between here and befunge.org, my HTML is being weirded. 06:30:49 hehe 06:32:29 anyways; interesting job for you: write ORK interpreter in ORK :) 06:32:40 should be possible since it's turing complete ;) 06:33:00 lol 06:33:09 Also, more painful then I can possibly describe. 06:38:47 hehe 06:38:47 i should finisf my bf in bf interpreter 06:38:47 grrh 06:38:47 Heheh 06:38:47 i'm typing with one hand and continuously making stupid mistakes 06:38:47 Ah yes 06:38:47 (other hand is busy holding the pizza) 06:41:31 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html < pretty much complete now 06:42:18 looks good 06:42:41 Should I make my head bounce around in the background? 06:42:57 Ooooooooooooooooooh, I've got a better idea! 06:43:10 lol 06:44:01 the 2l hello world example can't be found 06:44:08 404 06:45:06 Whoops >_> 06:45:40 Fixed 06:46:32 ok 06:47:50 oh no 06:48:14 seems that this day is, along with all the other annoying, cleaning day x{ 06:48:37 maybe i should clean before going to school.. hmm. 06:52:20 AHAHA 06:52:22 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html 06:53:39 hehe 06:53:45 fyb instructions? 06:54:00 Limited to FB ones. 06:54:07 although 06:54:10 '*' is not bf 06:54:15 that's why i asked ;) 06:54:29 Oh, I was thinking 2L at first, then later thought BF X-D 06:54:38 :) 06:55:30 hey 06:55:31 http://puzzlet.org/tmp/braille.htm 06:55:40 Conway's Game of Life in Braille patterns 06:55:53 Wowzer 06:56:39 what are those? 06:56:43 braille patterns 06:57:11 dot characters for the blind people 06:57:33 They're usually on walls engraved into metal, so blind people can read them with their hands. 06:57:49 Actually, embossed in metal I believe would be the correct term. 06:58:05 ah i see 06:58:22 too bad i can't get the script to work 06:58:31 i'm currently in win and with FF 06:58:41 I'm using FF and it works fine for me. 06:58:44 hmm 06:58:48 dunno whats wrong 06:58:55 maybe i have some strange settings or something 06:59:00 i can't see anything 06:59:12 maybe you need to install some font? 06:59:23 Mayhaps it's a font that's (surprise!) not available on Windoze. 06:59:27 http://home.att.net/~jameskass/code2000_page.htm 07:00:33 hmm i'n not big fan of downloading things 07:00:41 X-D 07:00:45 i'll try in linux in opera today later 07:05:13 do you know this lang gregor? : 07:05:13 http://www.veling.nl/anne/lang/hello/ 07:05:32 i should write new version of my bf hello world interpreter :) 07:06:43 reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ9_Plus 07:06:55 yeah 07:07:00 only a bit easier :) 07:28:59 lol 07:29:04 That's pretty terrible :-P 07:29:16 You need to at least be able to increment the accumulator. 07:33:05 aaaaaaaaargh 07:33:09 now i gotta go 07:33:27 see you later if i make it through this day :) 07:33:32 Bye ;) 07:33:35 :) 07:33:38 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:39 -!- lament has joined. 08:03:25 -!- Xin_ has joined. 08:20:40 -!- rollman has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:29:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:46:17 -!- KnX has joined. 08:46:41 -!- calamari has joined. 09:16:50 -!- KnX has quit ("Faut que je trouve un quit message ..."). 09:18:09 -!- KnX has joined. 10:28:08 haha, "It was my professional opinion that the programming world needed an esoteric object oriented programming language (other than Java of course)" 10:32:05 :) 10:38:22 * pgimeno ponders whether to write an ORK interpreter in either JavaScript, PHP or Python 10:38:38 normally i'd say python 10:38:44 but go ahead and do it in javascript :) 10:47:25 I'd better concentrate in my current projects rather than queuing another one 10:47:36 life is too short :( 10:48:17 fork(life); 10:48:33 child processes tend to be too rebel 10:49:03 This is a known bug that will be fixed in Universe 1.1 11:16:06 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:26 -!- hashendgame has joined. 14:15:20 -!- hashendgame has quit ("Leaving"). 14:16:46 -!- kipple has joined. 15:28:56 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:29:03 i'm alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111 15:30:39 good thing 15:31:00 yeah 15:31:14 why am i here? 15:34:57 because you're addicted? 15:35:03 hmm 15:35:15 :) 15:35:34 repeat after me: My name is Keymaker, and I am an esoholic 15:35:40 :) 15:35:53 must.. get.. daily.. esoteric.. programs.. 15:36:30 (as well, i partly meant the question as philosophical joke :)) 15:41:48 mh, time to eat now.. 15:47:29 eat sfunge 15:56:46 what is that? 15:59:31 i don't know -- i just made it up 15:59:35 out of "funge" 16:00:10 :) 16:00:10 there seems to be some sfunge.com 16:00:14 that youres? 16:00:17 *yours 16:05:53 nope 16:06:07 ok 16:06:51 it just came out of my head when i saw esoholic thing on the irc client 16:07:02 ok 16:07:13 anyway, hi, i'm from Korea 16:07:18 hi 16:07:29 wow 16:07:40 that seems to be the most exotic location 16:07:46 where this channel is accessed 16:09:09 here, esoteric language fans are very rare 16:09:27 i believe that :) 16:10:37 well, i haven't met any others than people in internet, so maybe they aren't very popular anywhere 16:11:01 (or maybe there could be some i haven't met in internet, but doesn't interest me :p) 16:11:12 I've met at least two in real-life too. 16:11:21 cool 16:11:33 in what kind of circumstances? 16:13:08 at the 1st world esolang meeting 16:13:08 Going to same school/university, mostly. 16:13:13 ( they were three ) 16:13:44 ok. nice 16:13:49 knx; sounds interesting :) 16:14:46 good ol' EsoCon 16:15:51 there was an world esolang meeting? 16:15:54 a* 16:16:10 no idea :) 16:16:27 no but could be fun 16:16:36 yeah 16:16:49 i suggest.. London :) 16:16:51 but very hard to do when you have about 3 fan for a country 16:17:18 but think about the world.. there are at least 20! 16:17:47 20 who would come? 16:18:26 three :) 16:18:41 i'd love a program when you enter a list of people + adress , and calculates ( using internet ) , the least cost place of meeting 16:19:54 -!- Keymakere has joined. 16:20:11 what would you do when the program gives places like Bombay? 16:20:29 :) 16:20:34 travel 16:20:41 anyways, pretty good idea for a program 16:32:15 lament: When you finish an ORK interpreter, I will give you a round of applause. Just me, individually. I'm not sure if that counts as a round... But I will anyway. 16:33:37 i'll applause too 16:34:46 OK, we'll get a round of 2. 16:34:48 That's good. 16:36:09 20! is already 2432902008176640000. 16:36:35 ...........................................................? 16:36:51 probably somewhere reads '20!' 16:36:59 too lazy to check logs 16:37:04 It's only been 20 minutes! 16:37:14 :) 16:37:19 ah, the answer-delay 16:37:28 You people with your ten-second attention spans, sheesh. (Eh... was sorta-away.) 16:37:44 heh 16:38:07 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:38:20 -!- Keymakere has left (?). 16:40:05 -!- Kmkr has joined. 16:40:23 grr this connection today.. 16:40:57 lol 16:41:02 :) 16:41:11 Don't you have "Keymaker" registered? 16:41:17 how? 16:41:22 Nickserv 16:41:26 dunno what that is 16:41:33 /msg nickserv help 16:41:45 do i write that? 16:41:47 Not all network use these fancy services. :p 16:41:59 8-D 16:42:00 True 16:42:11 I personally come from ircnet, which doesn't run any. 16:42:54 Well, I was just suggesting this for Keymaker so [s]he could reclaim his/her name. 16:43:07 lol 16:43:32 i try that sometime 16:43:38 probably too hard for me 16:43:43 i can't use it probably 16:43:55 in case there is lots of stuff to adjust etc. 16:44:03 -!- Kmkr has changed nick to Keymaker. 16:44:25 i'll try it now 16:45:52 hmm seems too hard 16:49:27 the rewritten hello world interpreter is now ready 16:49:46 this time i used checking the 'h' from binary 16:50:37 (mainly because i was too lazy to make it a few inner loops to check if the data is 104. i'll do that new version sometime later.) 16:51:49 here: 16:51:51 ,[[->>[>]+<[-<]<]>>[<+>-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<<+>>>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<<[<[-]>[-]]<[-[-[+++++++[>+++++++++<-]>.<++++[>+++++++<-]>+.+++++++..+++.<+++++++++[>---------<-]>++.<+++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.[-]<++++++++++.[-]]]],] 16:52:06 unless i didn't accidentally delete any character 16:52:25 as well, the "Hello World" (with new-line) is far from perfect 16:52:53 but i find making program to output strings in bf extremely annoying 16:53:00 or well, maybe not annyoing 16:53:03 tiring 18:06:20 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:06:32 To pay attention in class... 18:06:37 Or not to pay attention in class... 18:06:40 That is the question. 18:06:48 For is it nobler that I should pretend to be interested, 18:06:57 when the teacher is unknowingly talking about Brainfuck, 18:07:00 :D 18:07:04 waht? :) 18:07:15 We're discussing Turing completeness :-P 18:07:19 ah 18:07:22 neat 18:07:42 seems really interesting subject 18:07:48 And the Universal Register Machine. 18:08:20 ah 18:10:23 i'll be back soon, i go to shop to by groce.. errh chocolate cookies :) 18:10:37 btw, Gregor, have you looked at HomeSpring? 18:10:56 Nope, what is it? 18:10:58 it's another lang that is insanely verbose and high level 18:11:21 though in a very different way than ORK 18:11:21 Hmm 18:11:56 Hello world: 18:11:57 Universe of marshy force. Field sense 18:11:57 shallows the hatchery saying Hello,. World!. 18:11:57 Hydro. Power spring sometimes; snowmelt 18:11:57 powers snowmelt always. 18:12:14 lol, that's pretty bizarre. 18:12:50 http://www.rpi.edu/~bindej/hs.html 18:13:16 the spec is a reather funny read :) 18:19:57 LOL 18:20:06 "In Homespring, the null program is not quine." 18:20:11 As the output to a null program X-D 18:21:23 "... This allows you to avoid worrying about program style and focus on what programming is really about, the reproductive behavior of salmon" :D 18:23:21 :-P 18:41:37 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:12 -!- Deanalator has joined. 19:07:52 * Deanalator dances 19:07:55 -!- Deanalator has left (?). 19:08:24 :D 19:14:07 Hmm 19:16:43 A 2D programming language where you draw a stack, then physically move data above it and drop it in :-P 19:16:59 So you have to navigate your program pointer above the stack, then do a "drop" operation 19:17:01 hi 19:17:07 Hola pgimeno 19:17:15 hola :) 19:17:17 Want to tell me where/how/when/what/why to upload my page? 19:17:31 Minus, umm why and what. 19:17:46 I'll do for you, just tell me where to get it from. 19:18:06 Okiday 19:18:57 what's wrong with where it is now? 19:18:59 Sorry, that's what I can offer... 19:19:03 (befunge.org) 19:19:31 kipple: see www.cats-eye.com 19:19:57 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 19:19:59 huh? I don't get it? 19:20:15 On one hand, I have no guaranteed uptime, etc. 19:20:25 On the other hand, I have no FTP or SFTP. 19:21:10 or see http://cats-eye.mb.ca 19:21:17 was it that one? 19:21:23 did you mean : http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ 19:21:53 my point is: after some time, domains are abandoned... there are some cases in which the content is also lost 19:22:02 very true 19:22:05 (like Ben Olmstead's Malbolge pages) 19:22:20 fortunately they are in the Wayback Machine but how long? 19:22:23 and a big problem for us esoholics... 19:22:28 yeah 19:22:29 :) 19:22:51 I'm Pedro Gimeno and I'm esoholic 19:22:57 lol 19:22:59 which is why Wikipedia is so nice (as long as people don't delete ) 19:23:20 Wikipedia is not the place for keeping the esolangs, IMO 19:23:31 Agreed 19:23:41 agreed. but I haven't seen a good alternative 19:23:47 yeah, that's the point 19:23:54 now calamari has set up an esowiki 19:23:58 The alternative is to always host in several places. 19:24:05 ah, yes 19:24:06 yes, that's one 19:24:13 graue has also set up a wiki 19:24:23 I don't know graue 19:24:39 me neither, but he was here some weeks ago and talked about it 19:24:52 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page 19:24:56 where is the other wiki 19:25:30 the problem with these wiki's is that thay may disappear at any time (which is unlikely with wikipedia) 19:25:31 http://esowiki.kidsquid.com 19:25:58 (redirector) 19:26:04 yeah, I agree 19:26:08 that one is much better 19:26:19 but then we can't abuse it just for that reason either 19:26:29 true 19:27:12 ideally we should have some mirroring system of esolang pages. especially specifications 19:27:52 I talked to calamari on the subject, he says he plans on keeping the domain for long 19:27:59 that'd be an excellent idea 19:28:17 pgimeno: Do you want to have a copy of all the code, etc, as well? 19:28:20 yes, but we can't really know taht... 19:28:45 GregorR-L: yes, I'd like to 19:28:46 I also plan to keep my domain for life, but who can really tell... 19:28:59 * pgimeno pages fizzie 19:29:18 yeah 19:29:40 my domain is from a company, it can be moved but never deleted 19:30:22 and what if the company goes under? or changes it's name? 19:30:50 we should make our own Way Back Machine to archive esoteric pages.... 19:30:51 yeah, that may happen; in that case the links can become obsolete but the web will keep being maintained 19:31:00 I keep a copy of everything I upload 19:31:25 I am not planning to get rid of befunge.org ever, but obviously I can't know what'll happen. 19:31:50 fizzie, ok... will it always be your machine? 19:32:31 home PCs are subject to HD crashes, for example 19:32:40 yeah 19:32:58 and who cares about backups today anyway? 19:33:04 my server did last week, but it seems to have recovered perfectly.... 19:33:21 oh, you were lucky kipple 19:33:47 but the big problem isn't crashes and backups. it's people loosing interest, and discontinuing their web site 19:34:10 yeah, I was :D 19:34:33 yeah, interest in esolangs tends to happen especially among young people 19:35:06 Who then spend their entire life trying to deny it ;) 19:35:23 it does? I have no idea of the ages of people involved in esolags (except that I know several go to school currently) 19:35:24 I'll probably do raid-1 mirroring on the next box, but anyway. I guess if I ever get tired of hosting befunge.org (or keeping a web server at home), I'll try to consider some alternative arrangements. 19:35:24 hehe 19:36:21 well, in some cases (e.g. Olmstead's) they are hosted in the univ or school and disappear when they leave 19:36:41 that's just a guess on my side, kipple 19:37:12 fizzie, that's good to know 19:37:26 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.zip 19:38:14 cool, got it 19:38:39 fizzie: BTW, befunge.org seems to be weirding my line breaks for some reason. 19:38:50 The physical location of this server is likely to change quite much. (I'm probably moving few blocks further that road) in August, and there's an upper limit of 5/6 years (of which I've used 2) for these student apartments anyway.) 19:39:07 There's a spurious ) on the above line. 19:39:36 so it will be intermittent for some time 19:39:43 intermittently online, I mean 19:39:58 Well, yes. Downtimes shouldn't be longer than few hours, though. 19:40:06 I mean, I need my IRC. 19:40:08 oh that's bearable 19:40:10 hehehe 19:40:28 I'm fizzie and I'm an IRCoholic 19:41:09 pgimeno: Do you have a domain or subdomain for that site, btw? 19:41:30 GregorR-L: no, sorry, that's the problem I mentioned about the long URL 19:41:47 all I can do is set up a redirector when I have one 19:41:59 Do you want *.codu.org ? 19:42:07 I own that domain name, but the hosting is lame >_> 19:42:18 what's wrong with it? 19:42:18 Redirects aren't an issue though. 19:42:34 Very small amount of space, low bandwidth, intermittent issues. 19:42:56 uhm, yeah, sounds a bit lame 19:42:59 Costs $1/mo though 8-D 19:43:11 Gregor is cheap! 19:43:16 :) 19:43:23 But anyway, that's the web host, not the domain host. 19:43:29 So if you want a redirect, I can set it up. 19:44:00 my problem with redirection is that I have to do it myself 19:44:28 Hmm, your URL changes? 19:44:32 I don't have/know software for that except Apache but installing Apache sounds like too much overhead 19:45:03 see e.g. http://www.formauri.com/personal/pgimeno/ <- that's a redirector I have but it can only cope with www.formauri.com 19:45:28 what do you mean whether my URL changes? 19:45:33 I can set up *.codu.org to forward wherever you want. 19:45:41 Sorry, I was being confused ;) 19:45:51 So do you want a subdomain? 19:45:54 Between ~17.7. - 16.8. me and befunge.org will both be out of this place I'm living in now, because half of the apartment buildings here are being leased/something to this "IAAF World Championships in Athletics 2005" event. I've arranged a temporary location for the box, though, and hope I'll get to move to the next semi-permanent (at-least-a-year) place at the beginning of August. 19:46:57 fizzie: ok, in any case I think you'll agree that it sounds a bit unstable for a permanent esolang page... 19:47:37 * GregorR-L just sets up pgimeno.codu.org :-P 19:47:53 GregorR-L: back to the subdomain... you'll probably want to set up gregorr.codu.org or what you want 19:47:56 Well, yes. I don't have any cheap high-quality hosting available, though, otherwise I'd point gehennom.org there. 19:48:11 Er, befunge.org. 19:48:20 Heh, mixing up my domains already. 19:48:55 there are some free hostings around but they're full of advertisements 19:49:05 I've gtg now. 19:49:08 oh 19:49:12 See you all later. 19:49:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 19:49:41 hm, I'll discuss the subdomain later 19:50:16 there's funpic.org for example, unlimited space and php + mysql 19:51:31 but personally I hate pages full of ads 19:51:34 Mm-hmm. I've sometimes considered buying some quality hosting space. A local-ish provider (nebula.fi) has this (1GB of space, php+stuff, 25GB/month traffic recommendation) service that'd be 15eur/month, but since I don't have any content to host, I probably won't do that until I have a Real Job or something. 19:52:16 oh, yeah, that's a problem :) 19:52:42 I have a local outgoing traffic limit of 14GB/month here, too, but esoteric language sites aren't exactly generating huge amounts of traffic. At least until someone slashdots them. :p 19:53:08 (phone call= 19:53:09 ) 19:53:25 Oh, whoops, actually it's 14GB/week, not /month. 19:54:40 (And my web-serving IP has sent out 508498033 bytes during the last 7 days, so I'm not exactly very close to the limit yet.) 19:56:04 I'm paying for this hosting, but I'm afraid of using MySQL (e.g. wiki or stuff) because if I move to another ISP the database won't be moved 19:56:31 well, I can back it up and stuff but I don't like that idea much 19:57:42 Do they let you take an SQL dump of the db? That's relatively portable. 19:59:00 I think so, problem is if it crashes or for some reason I can't take a chance of backing it up before the content is lost/deleted 20:01:14 Mmm-hmm. (I'm really waiting for postgresql 8 to get debianized, it features an online hot-backup thing. I have a database table of 9.5 million rows that can't be replaced. I periodically burn a DVD of it, but it's always such a major operation.) 20:02:04 hum, sounds good, I wasn't aware of latest pgsql advances 20:03:30 anyway, manual handling of the contents is the only way I plan to handle what I host, no wiki or stuff (that's why I asked GregorR for the files to post) 20:03:55 oh damn, he uses absolute URLs instead of relative links 20:05:49 ah, no, I'm wrong 20:11:31 Heh, another planned service break affecting befunge.org at "16.5.2005 klo 17.00-18.30". FUNET has a borken router, it seems. 20:12:08 what is FUNET? I've used many times ftp.funet.fi but don't know what it is 20:13:48 Finnish University [something-or-other] NETwork. Part of NORDUNET. 20:14:03 oh, I see 20:14:06 "Finnish University and Research Network", apparently. 20:14:23 I'm not sure where the R has gone. 20:14:39 Maybe they didn't like the sound of "FurNet". 20:15:34 -!- Kmkr has joined. 20:15:39 back 20:15:43 hi Kmkr 20:15:44 took a while 20:15:46 hello 20:15:50 -!- Kmkr has changed nick to Keymaker. 20:15:52 it's me. 20:15:54 :) 20:16:05 yeah, I recognized you at first :) 20:16:10 heh 20:16:28 Ehlo. 20:16:58 hi 20:17:00 wow, an ESMTP salute, cool 20:17:00 lol 20:17:07 :) 20:17:10 "furnet" 20:17:11 lol 20:17:16 that'd be good 20:17:46 btw, where you have that big database fizzie? 20:17:58 i mean what its purpose 20:18:14 *what is 20:18:15 Er... I'd rather not say. It's a bit stupid. More than a bit, actually. 20:18:28 :) 20:18:33 #esoteric/2003-01.log:[2003-01-05 15:47:17] < fizzie> EHLO fizzie 20:18:33 #esoteric/2003-01.log:[2003-01-05 16:25:29] < fizzie> I was kind of waiting for the EHLO answer, whether he supports 8BITMIME and so on. 20:18:40 I've done the esmpt greeting here earlier. 20:18:46 s/pt/tp/ 20:19:28 is that the content of your database? irc logs? ;) 20:19:49 :) 20:19:57 No, no, I only have ~half a gig of those. 20:20:04 lol 20:20:05 And they're stored as flat-files, not in a db. 20:20:10 something to read.. 20:20:14 -!- Xin_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:20:34 GregorR: nice idea about that 2D language where you actually need to collect stuff from the stack 20:20:43 "physically" 20:21:19 580M of irclogs in non-bzip2-tarballed directories. 20:22:59 Oh well, the "database" is in http://darkhive.gehennom.org/ (I wouldn't normally mention the URL, but since it's only readable for Finnish-speaking people...) 20:24:18 ah. it's this :) 20:24:36 you mentioned it long ago 20:24:56 Possibly. I've been writing new statistics graphs for the stats/ thing lately. 20:25:14 ok 20:25:59 Admittedly a catastrophic database failure of _that_ material might be just a good thing. 20:26:14 :) 20:27:49 ah, finally i found that one track from my harddrive.. 20:28:01 i should convert more of my cds to mp3 20:28:17 (and to note, i don't share a bit.) 20:28:30 (i hate file sharing) 20:28:42 sorry, phone again 20:28:51 I recently ripped my CD collection. glad to be finished :) 20:29:02 :) 20:29:25 i have a big bunch of german trance :p 20:29:31 (and techno) 20:29:43 (the only music they sell so cheaply ;)) 20:30:35 heh. not much of that in my shelf :) 20:30:55 what kind of music you like? 20:30:59 mostly Rock 20:31:28 Pink Floyd, Pixies, R.E.M., Mars Volta, Radiohead, PJ Harvey etc..... 20:32:09 i see. (although don't know much about their music) 20:32:21 gotta spend some time away from the computer now. Later. 20:32:25 ok 20:32:27 have fun 20:40:35 fizzie: excuse me but the link you gave sounds to me basically like this one: http://pikachize.eye-of-newt.com/pika.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formauri.es%2F 20:48:54 Yes, well... ours is a rather silly little language. 20:49:21 silly? why? 20:49:50 Oh, I just assume it sounds silly to non-speakers. 20:50:38 I mean, "entgegengegangen" sounds silly to me, but I'm sure it sounds reasonable and sensible for any possible *.de people here. 20:50:40 it is silly for speakers as well :p 20:50:57 lol 20:51:45 hmmm 20:52:06 i got an idea that maybe esolangs need somekind of creature as well 20:52:15 like there is that tux penguin 20:52:24 and that gnu gnu 20:52:38 what about something esoteric animal? 20:53:46 (like some cute virus :)) 20:54:04 nah 20:54:07 something nice 20:54:44 Hm. I'm not sure what would be the most esoteric animal. 20:55:13 Perhaps a platypus. 20:56:04 well, the pgimeno is a rather esoteric animal 20:57:21 :D 20:57:54 hmmm 20:58:00 that platypus seems fun and cute 20:58:04 There's a platypus on the cover of my "Object-Oriented Programming" book. 20:58:24 :) 20:58:25 why? 20:58:43 I think its author (Timothy Budd) has a habit of adding one to each of his books. 20:59:03 :D 20:59:38 hmm. i could attempt drawing it tomorrow. 20:59:44 (notice i suck at drawing!) 21:01:07 The platypus's name is Phyl. 21:01:16 ok 21:01:21 (in those books?) 21:01:39 Yes. 21:01:42 ok 21:02:14 anyways, imho it might be fun to have some animal as esolang mascot 21:02:27 In this one he uses it to demonstrate an exception where a child class overrides behaviour it inherits. It's a mammal, yet it lays eggs. 21:02:40 :) 21:02:48 hmm that's rather interesting 21:04:01 I don't like the book too much, but I guess that's not Phyl's fault. 21:06:32 yeah 21:08:19 well. i'll get to sleep 21:08:38 good nite 21:08:41 Night. 21:08:42 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:09:18 I need to leave now too, see you tomorrow 21:09:47 oh, for GregorR: http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/ 21:10:09 some details have still to be pinned down but it's there already 21:10:25 bye 21:37:13 Taaus: http://helios.et.put.poznan.pl/%7Edzieciol/fx/Adam_Fulara-Goldberg_no_1.avi 22:11:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:48:55 lament: Oh. My. God... That's amazing! 23:49:10 no kidding 23:49:20 looks way harder than piano 23:49:36 Yep. 23:50:08 i bet it isn't :) 23:50:39 Hehe... Well... Learn to play it on the guitar! :) 23:51:13 no way 23:51:21 i don't have a guitar like that :) 23:52:06 Build one! :P 23:52:17 Just tape two guitars together. ;) 23:52:47 no. 23:52:53 i can't play that on piano anyway :) 23:53:16 Oop. I gotta go. Thanks for the link... I'll have to look at that movie a dozen times. 2005-05-13: 00:00:57 -!- calamari has joined. 00:39:35 -!- RandomName28H3i has joined. 01:01:41 -!- RandomName28H3i has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.3/20040913]"). 01:03:26 kipple: I forgot to ask - do you mind if I stick your 99-bottles-of-beer in ORK under the ORK examples? 01:03:48 of course not. go ahead :) 01:04:45 BTW, I've been formulating plans to make such things as LLLs possible. 01:04:52 I think I'll have a construct like: 01:04:58 LLL? 01:05:08 LLL=linear linked list 01:05:17 What I mean is any object that needs a pointer to another object. 01:05:39 Anyway, constructs like this: A linear linked list can have a next which is a linear linked list. 01:05:40 ah yes. that would be nice :) 01:05:50 Then you could set it like: My next is {blah}. 01:05:58 Or: I have a next. (to just make a new one) 01:36:45 and then perhaps, you could do: Will is to write my next's next's next's next's next's value :) 01:45:02 Though if any of those were uninstanciated, you would not be very happy ;) 02:13:38 -!- cpressey has quit ("leaving"). 02:37:17 -!- cpressey has joined. 03:03:17 GregorR: unless your program is the universe.. :) 03:21:28 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:31:27 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 03:56:06 That video defies all reason. 03:57:25 yes. 03:58:15 I just don't even get what he's doing .... 03:58:23 Is he hitting the strings with enough force to cause a vibration? 03:58:33 You'd think that would cause two (possibly dissonant) notes... 05:09:31 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 06:01:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:02:10 hello world 06:02:27 GregorR-L: no 06:02:35 GregorR-L: since pick-ups are only on one end of the string 06:08:56 eh.. we have "Babel Fish Research Group" in Korea 06:09:16 what we do is to research Babel Fish's behaviours 06:09:25 such as http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~Lama 06:09:47 swim swim hungry 06:09:54 oh wait, that's dopefish 06:10:16 lament: OH, that's right, it's electric. 06:10:23 For some reason that didn't occur to me. 06:10:35 GregorR-L: yes, and you can play any electric guitar like this. 06:10:42 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 06:10:50 you can play acoustic ones like that too, it'd just be very soft 06:11:31 * GregorR-L is not a guitarist ;) 06:11:46 i'm not a guitarist, but i can play the guitar a bit 07:18:22 hm, my best is http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~%EB%AA%A8%EC%A7%81 07:24:18 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:30:05 hi 08:30:43 hi 08:31:50 what's that page about, puzzlet? I don't get it (and I don't understand Korean) 08:32:42 some phrases are iteratively fed to Babel Fish 08:33:07 and we archive interesting results 08:33:25 oh 08:33:49 what's the gnuplot/latex section supposed to graph? 08:34:34 ah, that's supposed to show the words are increasing quadratically. 08:34:43 O(n^2) 08:35:47 oh, I see 08:35:49 and some other collections in http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~BabelFishAutomata 08:36:10 I don't see what makes them interesting though 08:36:53 because it wasn't designed to behave that way 08:37:08 what wasn't? BabelFish itself? 08:37:21 BabelFish itself 08:37:35 oh, I think I'm starting to get it 08:37:55 not at all, as a translation service 08:39:48 and some of those phenomena have some strict rules, and we call it "Babel Fish automata" 08:40:49 translating "Pink"(English) into "Pink-color"(Korean) causes another one: http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~Pink 08:41:30 -!- calamari has joined. 08:42:29 hi 08:42:48 -!- tokigun has joined. 08:44:46 hi tokigun :) 08:44:54 ;) 08:45:14 he is a member from Babel Fish Research Group 08:45:23 oh :) 08:46:31 aren't there more complex cycles? 08:46:35 iterative translating manually is so cumbersome, so he and i made an irc bot to do that. 08:47:16 http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~ItItOfItIt 08:47:18 8-cycle 08:47:26 cool 08:48:38 we aim for sth like Turing Machine made out of it, but it would be hardly possible ;) 08:49:15 oh well, Thue works by string substitution, maybe this can do something alike 08:49:28 Thue? 08:49:32 yeah 08:49:36 sec 08:50:05 see http://catseye.webhop.net/ 08:50:40 Projects: Languages 08:50:47 ah, so many languages from cat's eye 08:51:01 pgimeno: it's new domain of Cat's Eye Technologies? 08:51:42 it's a (hopefully permanent) redirector 08:52:12 oh. 08:53:09 maybe cpressey himself can tell us more precisely 08:53:25 oh, there he is 08:53:31 holy crap 08:53:33 i never noticed 08:53:38 cpressey indeed 08:53:40 me neither 08:53:51 this channel sure has grown 08:54:05 heh, it's about the first thing I notice when I first entered some days ago 08:54:11 *noticed 08:54:23 * lament kicks cpressey 08:54:40 * lament stomps on cpressey's head 08:54:50 i'm not sure if he's conscious 08:55:02 if he was, now he isn't ;) 08:55:02 hey let him go 08:55:43 * puzzlet is reading Thue documentation 08:56:18 i had written a nice Thue interpreter in javascript 08:56:21 and then it vanished :( 08:56:29 so sad 08:56:35 there's one in the wayback machine, is it yours? 08:56:40 where where 08:56:47 hm 08:56:48 link! 08:56:57 it's in my bookmarks, hold on 08:57:29 * lament holds on tight 08:57:35 oh, yeah it's yours 08:57:37 http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html 08:58:08 oh god 08:58:10 cyberspace.org 08:58:13 that was so long ago 08:58:26 thanks thanks 08:58:35 np 08:59:06 wow 08:59:12 okay, now the official home address is http://z3.ca/~lament/thue.html 08:59:42 nice, I'll add it to my bookmarks (but I'll keep the wayback machine one just in case) 09:01:06 i think i wrote it at work :) 09:01:38 it's nice that wayback machine archives js as well as html 09:01:50 and in some cases even .zip 09:02:27 that's how I've managed to recover the True distribution (which is based, quite unsurprisingly, in False) 09:03:14 Another Game of Text - http://puzzlet.org/tmp/pipe.htm 09:03:27 Compare with http://puzzlet.org/tmp/braille.htm 09:07:38 puzzlet, would you mind adding Arial Unicode MS to the list of fallback fonts? 09:08:01 of course not 09:08:22 it is celluar automaton! 09:08:27 i just don't know much about unicode fonts 09:08:39 cellular 09:09:02 the sierpinsky triangle thue program has such a pretty memory state 09:09:21 and Courier New just in case... the font that gets used here is not proportional :( 09:09:22 didn't* 09:11:33 cool! 09:11:40 it's proportional now 09:12:38 i gotta be away from my keyboard 09:12:41 lament: links at http://z3.ca/~lament/ascii-art.html seem to be broken 09:13:19 no shit 09:13:50 i'll have to recover all that as well 09:13:58 just look at http://web.archive.org/web/20031218155802/cyberspace.org/~lament/ instead 09:14:13 thanks 09:14:15 mind you the page is 2 years old 09:14:17 :) 09:28:59 sorry but i'll be back. 09:29:00 -!- tokigun has quit ("leaving"). 09:29:07 sorry but i won't 09:29:09 * lament sleeps 09:30:25 -!- tokigun has joined. 10:45:05 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:58:24 -!- kipple has joined. 11:41:58 I think it would be a good idea to write an ORK version of the CSS descrambler; ORK is just so verbose and explanatory that it could serve as a boost to the freedom-of-speech point 11:44:06 perhaps 11:44:37 are you volunteering? ;) 11:44:43 maybe 11:45:00 an ORK interpreter is higher in my list of priorities 11:45:16 initializing those arrays will be quite a lot of code... 11:45:31 that would also be nice :) 11:46:34 ORK is half the way towards an usable teaching language 11:52:26 I somehow doubt that is Greg's intention 11:53:27 well, he agreed that it was halfway usable for object-oriented programming teaching 11:53:42 just I think that that's not his priority 11:55:38 Wow. I just looked at the perl CSS descrambler on the CSS gallery. Perl has to be the most esoteric of the regular languages :) 11:56:14 haha, I think so 11:56:36 that's been commented here a few days ago 11:56:47 then again, the tiniest C version is almost just as bad 11:57:55 or good, depending on your point of view :) 11:59:09 obfuscated 11:59:17 yeah 11:59:48 btw, the IOCCC has become a tiny coding contest these days... sorta lost some interest 14:00:41 Hoi 14:01:06 It's curious that people have taken an interest in ORK ;) 14:05:00 -!- Keymaker has joined. 14:05:12 it's weeeeeeeeeeekeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeend!!! 14:05:19 SHUT UP 14:05:21 >_< 14:05:23 :p 14:05:25 You and your time zones. 14:05:32 hehe 14:05:34 I haven't even gone to work on Friday yet >_< 14:05:40 hahaha!!!!!!!! 14:05:55 but notice when i'm worrying about monday 14:05:58 you can spend sunday 14:06:07 I just woke up, and it's 16:00. 14:06:12 lol 14:06:16 fizzie: Awesome :-P 14:06:22 and we are on same time zone! 14:06:22 I haven't gone to work on Friday yet either. :p 14:06:27 :) 14:06:45 may i ask how you managed to sleep so late? 14:06:55 I was pretty tired, what with not sleeping more than ~3 hours/night during the last week. 14:07:05 fizzie pulls out his marijuana - "And this helped too" 14:07:16 :) 14:07:29 * GregorR has no clue whether that would actually help. 14:07:34 Is it an upper or a downer? Idonno 14:07:37 Me neither. 14:07:41 I guess it might. 14:07:45 Besides, I slept only 0300 -> 1600, which is just 13 hours. 14:08:04 I woke up at 5:30AM 14:08:28 i woke up at 6:30 14:08:29 *brain melts* 14:08:33 :) 14:08:51 You people are weird. 14:09:02 fizzie: I wouldn't if I didn't have to go to work. 14:09:44 :D 14:11:02 anyways; 14:11:07 about the stuff on logs 14:11:15 interesting stuff as there has been lately 14:11:33 ORK version of decss would be worth of seeing 14:12:40 lament: you know dopefish too?! 14:12:45 highly cool! 14:13:07 Hmm 14:13:11 -ChanServ- Alternate: lament, last seen: 4 days (10h 4m 1s) ago 14:13:17 * GregorR looks at lament. 14:13:19 -ChanServ- Alternate: lament, last seen: 4 days (10h 4m 1s) ago 14:13:22 Hmm 14:13:35 lol 14:14:08 as well, that cpressey stuff was fun 14:14:37 anyways; 14:15:01 puzzlet (and tokigun): that Babel Fish Research Group is really cool idea i think 14:15:07 good luck with the project 14:15:20 as well, publish some results in english ;) 14:20:21 on a sidenote; has anyone seen a film called the Audition? 14:20:33 it seems to be some horror movie 14:20:40 they show here on tv tonight 14:21:12 i usually don't watch movies from tv, but just thought this one might be worth seeing 14:21:16 anyone seen it? 14:22:39 Never heard of it *shrugs* 14:22:55 How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? -> BABEL FISH -> How much wood is arctomys possible because arctomys it can the wood tap strike slightly? 14:23:13 :) 14:23:51 Well, off to work. 14:24:16 bye! 14:25:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:25:49 "The last section of the film is one of the most brutal torture scenes ever put on celluloid, and it is definitely not for the faint of heart. But even in its gore-filled shockingness, the film is beautiful to look at, a monumental achievement by a director willing to take chances and challenge his audience." 14:25:54 http://www.moviesonline.ca/movie_details.php?id=105 14:26:51 we'll see.. :) 14:32:30 I'm trying to find a fixed point of the ps2pdf/pdf2ps conversion pair. 14:34:02 It is being difficult. Apparently each successive iteration adds 13 bytes to the postscript. 14:34:49 is it somekind of task? 14:34:51 Hmm. The 13 bytes consist of the lines "0 0 0 0 re" and "f". 14:34:57 No, no, was just curious. 14:34:59 ok 14:36:22 Interesting, though. The original postscript was 92603 bytes, after the first iteration it had increased to 99447 bytes, but after the second it suddenly jumped to 1714687 bytes. 14:36:36 (That's ~100k -> 1.7M.) 15:27:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:36:19 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:45:34 y0 17:45:48 ho 17:46:11 fizzie: have you managed to ever get a decreasing number? 17:46:57 fizzie: what version of ghostscript btw? 17:48:00 I'm not the postscript-oriented kind of guy 17:50:55 anyway I'm curious about what the results are with the conversion 17:51:17 ESP Ghostscript 7.07.1 (2003-07-12) 18:08:00 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:08:07 ahh 18:08:09 back home 18:08:16 good 18:08:21 hello 18:08:36 hi 18:09:31 surprisingly Wikipedia had launched hieroglyph support 18:09:39 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:WikiHiero_syntax 18:09:55 what it has to do with esoteric languages 18:11:28 programming in hieroglyph seems classic, though :) 18:13:57 hehe 18:24:00 grh.. must go 18:24:01 re Keymaker 18:24:04 doh 18:24:05 bbl 18:24:06 bye Keymaker 18:24:09 :) 18:24:11 hi and bye 18:24:14 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 18:24:20 fizzie: about the size reduction, did you manage to get any? 18:36:48 No, the ps size is always monotonically increasing, and the pdf is quite constant. 18:36:51 See http://gehennom.org/~fis/ps2pdf.txt 18:49:20 Because I have waay to much free time, I've actually studied Hieroglyphs and the Ancient Egyptian language and grammar. 18:49:29 Aaaaand ... back to work :P 19:08:48 -!- puzzlet has quit. 20:14:31 -!- tokigun has quit ("leaving"). 21:01:22 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:01:27 hi 21:01:29 good news 21:01:43 bf-hacks.org should be ready in 48 21:01:54 secs? 21:01:55 47 21:01:56 46 21:01:57 45 21:01:58 ... 21:02:02 seems i've received e-mail that told me that it should be functional in 48 hours :) 21:02:05 hehe 21:02:23 neat! 21:02:28 yah 21:02:39 better make some programs fast :) 21:04:22 it's kinda neat how easy it is to do stuff via web.. like i just ordered the domain and paid it in web :) 21:06:35 do you have any plans apart from the design? 21:06:48 plans? 21:06:50 :) 21:06:55 about the contents 21:06:55 well, there's link section 21:07:01 yeah 21:07:10 i have thought about making some section called "Study" 21:07:12 or something 21:07:19 which would have interesting stuff about brainfuck 21:07:32 (the problem is to write this interesting stuff.. ;)) 21:08:12 oh well, it's easy, you know, just write it 21:08:13 :) 21:08:25 heh 21:08:38 i guess i can get something done 21:08:51 although that might appear long after the site is in web :) 21:09:01 (that's true also for the Great Unification Theorem of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, of course) 21:16:14 mmh.. pepsi.. 21:16:38 is that spam or something? :P 21:16:49 j/k 21:18:12 :) 21:18:17 DRINK PEPSI! 21:18:38 (just earned my 0.005$ :)) 21:18:55 hehe 21:18:59 :) 21:21:12 hmmm.. seems the audition (movie) starts in 15 minutes 21:22:08 k 21:22:20 well, there's still time.. 21:22:30 btw 21:22:38 what you're doing pgimeno? 21:22:44 that website of yours? 21:23:27 yes, I'm working in deep changes 21:23:33 ok 21:24:12 I wanted to write about my Malbolge adventure but there was no room for it, so I thought it was about time of updating it 21:24:21 :) 21:24:29 sounds like a good reading material 21:26:37 hmm 21:26:49 seems i haven't managed to do almost anything in few weeks 21:26:52 or possible more 21:27:07 i wonder what i have been doing.. probably just chatting on this channel 21:27:19 or surfing random websites 21:27:22 :\ 21:27:36 oh, surfing random websites is my source for inspiration 21:27:42 heh 21:27:44 did you read my Minesweeper article? 21:27:51 i should reread it 21:27:56 it seemed good 21:28:02 but i didn't concentrate much 21:28:05 i'll read it again 21:28:12 interesting idea 21:28:17 it needs a bit of knowledge of logic gates 21:28:33 yeah, i have some knowledge of those 21:28:41 I just asked to show how I include lots of references of what I've visited 21:28:58 hm? 21:29:01 asked who? 21:29:08 asked if you've read it 21:29:12 oh 21:29:36 just to prove my point that it's my source of inspiration :) 21:29:43 :) 21:31:24 but gotta go! 21:31:26 bye 21:31:28 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:32:18 hope you enjoy the movie 23:45:07 GregorR: which version of your page is the "official" one (i.e. which should I bookmark). befunge.org or formauri.es? 23:49:57 -!- Keymaker has joined. 23:50:01 hi 23:50:13 kipple: http://eso.codu.org/ For the moment it points to befunge.org, but I'll change it if it becomes necessary to. 23:50:20 Hi and bye (back to work ;) ) 23:50:24 ah. nice 23:50:27 :) 23:50:28 and bye :) 23:50:36 hi Keymaker 23:50:45 hi 23:50:48 hi 23:50:54 i hadn't guts to watch the movie :) 23:50:59 it was getting too bizarre 23:51:06 uh 23:51:12 strange 23:51:29 I was about to ask :) 23:51:33 :) 23:51:35 I'm not a gore genre fan 23:51:44 not me either 23:52:06 really scary 23:52:12 speaking of which: Have you seen Braindead :) 23:52:16 hmm 23:52:19 no :) 23:52:24 (except in mirror) 23:52:27 * pgimeno prefers fuck rather than dead 23:52:33 :) 23:52:34 (sorry for the strong words) 23:52:38 np 23:52:56 it has good point 23:54:17 btw 23:54:27 where was that minesweeper stuff again? 23:54:30 i would reread it now 23:54:42 By the way, I got pointer support working in ORK, but as per usual I'm at work and can't upload it :-P 23:54:51 :) 23:54:54 well, get home then! 23:55:04 call in sick! 23:55:05 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/Minesweeper.php 23:55:10 cheers 23:55:15 ;) 23:55:15 I'm on a timecard, so if I leave, I get less 444 23:55:21 With dollar signs. 23:55:26 That I apparently can't type over VNC. 23:55:42 :) 23:56:02 GregorR: I have a few aspects to discuss with you about hosting, when you have the time 23:58:00 If you don't mind a slow, broken discussion, ask away ;) 23:58:44 the main problem is that the server doesn't allow publishing directories 23:58:51 http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/ 23:59:34 pointing a link to a directory causes a 403 2005-05-14: 00:00:14 (actually that can also be seen as a good security measure) 00:00:48 On my end, that's solved, I just need to send the proper index files. 00:00:56 oh, neat 00:01:06 I'd noticed that as well ;) 00:01:52 So I'll send the index files to you at about 4:30AM (your time zone) - will you be up? ;) 00:02:06 I'm afraid not 00:02:17 I'll email ;) 00:02:38 hm... k 00:04:25 the email is in a PM (sorry, one never knows if a spambot will also read IRC logs) 00:04:58 I have given up hiding my email. Now I rely on spam filters insted 00:05:13 I do both 00:05:30 :) 00:05:38 use real letters :) 00:05:40 I just give fake email addresses. 00:05:48 I don't get much email that way .... 00:05:58 But I don't get much sam either! 00:06:01 *spam 00:06:04 lol 00:06:07 hehe 00:06:19 BTW, my address is PresidentGregor@whitehouse.gov 00:07:29 reminds me of that story... "BTW, my IP address is 127.0.0.1" 00:07:37 heh :D 00:07:50 There's no place like 127.0.0.1 00:08:06 :) 00:08:17 "hehe I'm formatting your HD you idiot"... PING TIMEOUT 00:08:24 lol 00:08:28 i've read that 00:08:38 or at least something like that 00:08:50 was on slashdot recently 00:08:55 yeah 00:09:00 that probably was it 00:09:01 that's a very reduced version actually 00:09:08 just a remainder 00:09:15 yeah 00:09:24 the guy was real idiot.. 00:09:34 if the story's true... 00:09:46 yeah.. hey, i am lame because i use firewall :) 00:09:53 me too 00:09:56 heh 00:10:05 probably one of these... http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1808/ 00:10:50 I usually avoid being hacked by writing my entire operating system from the ground up in-house and never releasing the source code. 00:11:03 heh 00:11:07 Works real well, and only takes a few years per iteration. 00:11:24 haha :D 00:12:59 iirc the guy said something like "gimme your ip #&(/" and i'll send you a virus #)(/)(#!!1" 00:13:48 something like that 00:13:51 hehe 00:17:46 speaking of homemade OSes: Have anyone tried the BF OS loader? 00:18:01 was posted on the brainfuck mailing list a while ago 00:18:47 nope 00:22:27 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/bf.html 00:22:36 interesting stuff. 00:22:54 yeah 00:23:45 yet still (iirc) calamari says he can't program in bf very well :) 00:24:29 Ah, so Jeffrey is calamari :) good to know 00:24:48 hehe 00:28:36 when i tried earlier today to invent some esoteric language mascot 00:28:39 (and failed) 00:28:46 i came up with this: 00:28:58 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/ork.png 00:29:25 is that supposed to be greg? 00:29:31 :) 00:29:31 GregorR: don't take it seriously; ORK and your hats are cool :) 00:29:33 lol 00:29:39 noooo 00:29:51 I was wondering if that was one of my hats :-P 00:29:57 me too 00:30:01 :) 00:30:07 Though that creature isn't exactly an Or[ck] 00:30:24 heh 00:30:31 so, what's the most esoteric animal I wonder.... 00:30:40 yes 00:30:42 me too 00:30:46 OOH, one sec, I know what it is! 00:30:54 I have to find it on Wikipedia again, just giive me a sec 00:31:17 ok 00:32:30 Grr. 00:32:35 Trying to paste over VNC = not fun 00:32:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichoplax 00:33:35 :) 00:34:40 hmm 00:34:44 sounds quite interesting 00:37:00 but no picture... 00:37:02 maybe cryptozoology is the place to look :) 00:37:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptozoology 00:39:12 hehe 00:44:11 Incidentally, I don't wear glasses, so where did those come from? 00:44:39 it's not you 00:44:48 i was just trying to make esomascot 00:44:59 and then got the idea to make it wear your hate 00:45:01 *hat 00:45:14 and then i thought about adding some reference to ORK to that picture 00:45:16 :) 00:45:45 and those are just some strange eyes although they look like eyes 00:45:48 Seems like an oddly specific esomascot X-D 00:45:53 how about the Dodo?:) 00:45:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo 00:45:56 :) 00:48:49 this picture needs a *LOT* work: 00:48:49 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/mascots.png 00:49:00 (and don't blame me, i don't have visual memory!) 00:58:27 oh, and some lines up i meant to say they're just eyes although they look like eyeglasses 01:00:10 well. anyways, i'm tired, and it's 3:03 am here 01:00:17 better go to sleep 01:00:27 bye 01:00:32 bye 01:00:34 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 02:29:09 I'm going to sleep too 02:29:20 nite all 02:39:52 -!- kipple has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"). 04:18:37 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:33:18 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:33:25 w00t! My kipple tokenization finally works 8-D 07:01:04 I've got a good mascot :) 07:01:57 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/placozoan.png 07:10:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:11:19 Hoi 07:11:39 hi 07:13:00 How goes? 07:14:06 Hmm 07:14:12 You're in yet another time zone from everybody else X-D 07:14:31 how did you know? 07:14:52 CTCP TIME 07:15:04 Makes your IRC client respond with your computer's time. 07:15:37 i'm from South Korea 07:15:44 Ahh 07:16:15 Quite the wide range this channel has. 07:33:34 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:49:05 -!- Keymaker has joined. 07:49:12 hi 07:49:17 argh 07:49:20 or w00t! 07:49:29 bf-hacks.org is accessible 07:49:36 i should just upload other than test-index 07:49:46 so you decided the domain 07:49:53 yeah 07:50:44 GregorR: so you got the kipple interpreter working?! 07:50:49 the one in ORK? 07:51:04 that sounds really neat 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:03 Woah woah woah. 08:06:06 Hold your horses. 08:06:09 I got the TOKENIZATION working. 08:06:18 I'm still a ways off from the full interpreter ;) 08:06:18 what's that then? 08:06:23 ah ok 08:06:36 I can read in a kipple file and figure out what's a number, what's a stack, what's an operation, and organize it as such. 08:06:42 ah yes 08:06:44 now i see 08:06:52 that's pretty good 08:06:58 So did you see my mascot? ;) 08:07:02 yeah :) 08:08:13 remember to look closely what the manual says about all the stuff 08:08:18 (kipple manual) 08:08:43 Yes yes. 08:08:47 It is quite intricate. 08:08:51 :) 08:11:05 this is important: "The program 1>a<2 a+a will result in a containing the values [1 4] and not [1 3]. Likewise for the - operator." 08:11:31 Yeah, I saw that. 08:11:35 ok 08:11:49 I'm going to accomplish that by peeking instead of popping for the + operator. 08:12:14 ok 08:12:26 hey! 08:13:04 wow -- so if.. i mean WHEN you have completed the kipple interpreter, ORK can create the C file that can be compiled..? 08:13:24 and then we'll get interpreter written in C! that i can use on computer! 08:13:31 wheeee!!!! 08:13:33 LOL 08:13:36 It's C++ ;) 08:13:37 But yeah. 08:13:41 ok, odesn't matter:) 08:13:44 woah 08:14:26 it's kinda fun that the first interpreter (other than kipple's (person)) is written in esolang 08:14:27 and cool 08:15:05 lol 08:17:20 btw, do you have work today gregorr? 08:17:34 or can you hack the interpreter all the day ;) 08:25:32 Well, it's 12:26AM for me right now :-P 08:25:36 So if you mean Saturday, no I don't. 08:26:51 yeah 08:26:56 nice :) 08:51:48 but well. gotta do some annoying studying today.. bye 08:51:55 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 09:13:49 moo 09:14:51 Keymaker: congrats on your brand-new domain! 11:23:11 Mhnhmm... morning, assorted humans and others. 11:24:54 * pgimeno wonders which side is he(it?) on ;) 11:25:06 morning 11:28:15 Well, it is the future already (past-2000), some of you might be computer programs. Although I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of flying cars... and the orbital-elevator-thing is still missing, too. 11:29:29 hehe 12:16:06 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:16:20 hello 12:18:02 Hlo. 12:18:09 hi 12:19:28 I am trying out Lucene, apache project's text search engine thing. 12:19:42 hmm 12:19:56 does it search text from internet or where? 12:20:32 Wherever you like. It doesn't include a web-crawler, though, it's just a search engine engine. 12:20:58 ok 12:21:08 I'm using it to index the messages in Darkhive, but seems it'll take over 8 hours to build the index. (I'm estimating the speed as ~10 discussion-threads per second.) 12:22:25 heh. there's plenty o' content 12:22:51 It might be faster once I add words like "ei", "joo" and such to the stop-word-list so it doesn't bother indexing those. I was going to build the index without any stop words first, since apparently you can get some term frequency information from the index, so I can check what are the most common words used there. 12:37:41 (hour-lag reply..) pgimento: thanks 12:44:45 hmm 12:44:52 what do you suggest; 12:45:05 should i add the programs to my site as block form 12:45:17 or in more readable form 13:00:38 -!- kipple has joined. 13:04:23 hiya kipple 13:04:31 hi 13:04:47 i'm just about to upload the first version of bf-hacks 13:05:24 I see it :) 13:05:39 ha, Royal Brainfuck Society :D 13:05:42 :) 13:05:45 noo 13:05:48 that's not the first yet 13:05:51 it was just test 13:06:00 you have to wait a minute 13:06:08 sorry... 13:08:06 gotta go eat some breakfast. I'll check it out later 13:09:20 ok 13:09:48 yeaaah 13:09:52 it's up now 13:09:53 http://www.bf-hacks.org/ 13:10:32 now i should make more programs that would be worth of adding 13:11:03 -!- Keymaker has set topic: A new brainfuck site http://www.bf-hacks.org/ is opened!. 13:17:48 hmm 13:18:21 now i should draw the 'favicon' or whatever that small picture is called that appears in most browsers when going to some site 13:28:59 -!- Keymaker has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open!. 13:29:03 that's better 13:36:54 nice :) 13:37:14 so, will there be only BF stuff there? 13:37:33 yeah 13:37:51 then maybe you should link to you other site... 13:37:56 hmm 13:37:59 might be clever 13:38:11 i'll do that probably sometime 13:38:30 i just wonder where i would place the link.. 13:38:33 probably to index 13:38:45 *in 13:39:00 as well, must update yiap to add this link 13:39:10 oh, and glad you like it 13:40:28 good colors. Much better than my black text on white background pages 13:41:34 heh, it's just some reversing 13:42:24 first i thought about pink background and yellow text, but this seemed a bit better 13:43:00 ouch. would that even be readable? 13:43:30 it was a joke :) 13:43:33 not very readable 14:05:09 i try to make myself study for a while, so i close the computer. if don't close it i wouldn'tr ead :) 14:05:12 bbl 14:05:14 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 15:49:58 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:50:03 hello 15:50:13 my eyeglasses dropped 15:50:19 and the other lens got out 15:50:22 and i can't find it! 15:50:39 how it can be that lens can get so completely lost?! i've searched everywhere 15:57:35 maybe because you can't see without it ;) 16:00:49 heh :) 16:00:58 this is annoying 16:01:15 well, i can keep my left eye closed 16:33:54 hmh. can't find it 16:43:42 glasses have the bad costume of being transparent 16:43:45 (hi) 16:47:45 yeah 16:47:47 hi 16:48:04 as well, i finally found them couple of minutes ago 16:48:14 now i'm trying to insert the lens back 16:50:04 oh, congrats! it must have been quite uncomfortable to look for it with an eye closed 16:50:16 cheers 16:50:18 yeah 16:51:04 ever noticed that if you lose some stuff you find it from a place you assume it never could get? :) 16:51:59 sure :) 16:52:03 i found these under my table. i didn't assume a lens could fly that far.. 16:52:21 everybody knows lenses don't fly :P 16:52:36 :) 16:53:49 too bad i can't fit it back completely 16:55:18 ah! managed! 16:55:24 good as new 16:55:42 nice! 16:56:38 :) 16:57:39 grr, so many Debian packages changed since my last upgrade... I'm afraid I'll have to update the list 16:58:13 :) 16:58:14 any recommended graphical FTP client? 16:58:25 I was about to install gftp, don't know how good or bad it is 16:59:35 hmm 16:59:41 iirc i used gftp today 16:59:44 seems to work well 17:00:24 ok, then it may be worth downloading it separately and installing instead of upgrading 17:00:27 thanks 17:00:33 you're welcome 17:00:40 too bad i now have to go 17:00:46 to buy some candy :) 17:00:48 bbl 17:00:49 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 17:50:07 There is a scribe called pgimeno. There is a writer called GregorR. When GregorR is around: GregorR is to page pgimeno. If pgimeno's answer is hello: GregorR is to tell pgimeno if it's OK that pgimeno updates ork/index.html himself. If GregorR's answer is yes: pgimeno is to finish updating GregorR pages' mirror. 17:53:13 LOL 17:54:32 I'm heating engines to write that deCSS descrambler :) 17:54:42 ooh! 17:54:48 good luck 17:55:40 well, not actually... unless someone lends me a "pause time" button 17:55:52 you can have mine 17:56:04 never got it to work anyway ;) 17:56:42 doh, in the meantime I'll put "fix kipple's pause-time button" in the queue 17:57:03 thx :) 17:58:34 * kipple is gone for the night 17:58:57 oh, enjoy! 18:02:43 Is there an ORK syntax highlighting file for vim yet? 18:03:29 * pgimeno looks the distribution 18:03:52 nope, maybe GregorR forgot to include it ;) 18:08:01 Maybe I should write one, then try to use ORK for something. It must be a great language, since everyone's talking about it nowadays. 18:12:42 I lack a suitable project, though. 18:13:05 I have one, do you want it? 18:17:07 If it's that deCSS thing, I probably don't. 18:18:13 Is that ork-0.7 a current version of the distribution? 18:18:16 oh, it was worth trying anyway 18:18:19 yes AFAIK 18:24:17 Ork only has number and string arrays, not arrays of generic classes? Aw. 19:20:13 Hmmm. If I write "blablah is to foo 1", when blablah is a member of class that "can foo a number", it compiles to foo(1) and then g++ complains, because the actual function is a foo(double& ref). This is annoying. Do I need to store all arguments to temporary variables? Admittedly it adds to the oh-so-nice verbosity, but... 19:21:28 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:21:37 good hello! 19:21:48 hm... disable the warning? 19:21:49 hi Keymaker 19:21:53 hi 19:21:56 It's not a warning, it's an error. 19:22:04 You can't convert a constant to a reference, obviously. 19:22:24 Also, if I want a big ( >= 2^31 ) numerical constant, I need to use nnnn.0 instead of nnnn, which is a bit.. undesirable, since I really shouldn't have to know about the generated C++ code. 19:22:38 (That's an error too. error: integer constant is too large for "long" type 19:22:50 oh, double& is byref... sorry I'm not much into C+ 19:23:23 *C++ 19:24:42 I guess GregorR didn't care much about documenting integer limits 19:25:07 Well, all the numbers are doubles, it's just that the constant needs a .0 at the end. 19:25:37 There could be some sort of identifier renaming thing, too. I can't have a function called "xor" now, since that's a reserved C++ keyword apparently. 19:26:38 oh, yes I agree on the renaming 19:27:07 hopefully my interpreter will cope with these issues 19:31:11 Heh, doing logical operations is quite fun, too. I would like to test for some bits, but the "1" I get from 124421.000000 / 4.000000 % 2.000000 is different from the "1" I get from a constant 1, due to floating-point inaccurancies, so they don't compare as 'equals'. 19:34:16 pretty esoteric 19:34:47 mmh.. apple flavour.. 19:34:54 test if > 0.5 :) 19:35:02 But it's so _verbose_. 19:35:18 Anyway, turns out that in this particular case they are the same 1.0s. Still, I'm sure I'm going to get bitten by floating point things. 19:35:49 -!- lament has joined. 19:36:12 quite likely; Real Programmers do FP math with integers 19:36:14 hi lament 19:37:11 evenin' 19:37:29 :) ah, yes. integers are the best 19:37:57 hi 19:38:14 how's going? 19:38:32 good 19:38:48 ok 19:39:27 argh 19:39:43 what was the key combination to stop program in dos console? (i'm in win xp this time) 19:39:44 argh? 19:39:46 argh. 19:39:51 :) 19:40:08 or was there any combination? 19:40:08 ctrl + break or ctrl + c 19:40:17 ah 19:40:18 thanks 19:40:40 ctrl+c tends to work less reliably 19:47:02 i got my first thue program done 19:47:02 hey::=~Does this work? 19:47:02 ::= 19:47:10 hey 19:47:27 that is basically the same than hello world 19:47:40 but now i think i got how this particular program works 19:49:27 use my interpreter :) 19:49:27 neat! 19:51:03 :) 20:14:44 This makes no sense. 20:14:53 you are right 20:15:20 I'm trying to write a crc32 calculator in ORK to get a feeling on how easy it's to do bit-fiddling in. 20:16:05 _Oh._ 20:16:21 So "I am to loop" is an implicit keyword, not a call to function 'loop'? 20:16:32 -!- Xin_ has joined. 20:16:36 Right. 20:21:30 Yeah, I realize the issue with putting a constant in an argument ... 20:21:37 I'll add that to my todo list. 20:22:02 And you can integerize something by modulo-ing it with a very high number. 20:22:18 I forgot to make a floor operation 8-D 20:24:16 Or you could add a floor to libork *shrugs* 20:26:30 Oh, so modulo is the integer operation and not a fmod()-like thing? 20:26:46 Heh, at least http://gehennom.org/~fis/crc.ork now builds _something_ in lookup table. It's probably not correct, though. 20:27:42 My next iteration will add: 1) Proper handling of constants, 2) Bitwise operators, 3) A floor operator. 20:27:49 Since these are what "the people" seem to need ;) 20:29:08 Wahh. Did I write my logician class for no reason if there's going to be a built-in bitwise operation class? :p 20:29:31 OK, never mind 8-D 20:29:44 If your logician works, maybe it will become the first internal class written in real ORK ;) 20:30:13 Well, I guess it does work, but it only calculates xor for now, since that's the only thing I needed. 20:30:31 Ahh ^_^ 20:30:35 I also added a convenience method to do "&1" and get an easy way to branch on it. 20:30:37 I can't access the file :( 20:30:42 A logician has a helper which is a mathematician. 20:30:50 Oh, that's right! 20:30:57 4) User-defined classes need to be able to "say" 20:31:17 That'd be nice. Currently you need to do "If Frege's helper says it's equal" 20:31:51 I'll implement 1, 3 and 4 some time tonight. 20:31:53 I wonder what's the problem with that web server. Someone said it works with a 'www.' prefix. Strange. 20:32:25 Yup, works with www. 20:32:48 Looks like you need to fenagle your DNS. 20:32:54 * GregorR goes off, to come back later. 20:38:37 -!- Kmkr has joined. 20:38:48 what do you need to crash win xp? 20:38:54 -change user for a while 20:39:31 backoriffice? 20:41:07 what's that? 20:57:00 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:05 -!- Kmkr has left (?). 21:00:03 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:00:11 ab::=~I can do loop! 21:00:11 c::=abc 21:00:11 ::= 21:00:15 abc 21:06:28 and i also understand now how to make finite loops 21:06:28 l::=~This line will be printed five times. 21:06:29 ::= 21:06:30 lllll 21:06:51 thue is cool language :) 21:07:45 yeah :) 21:08:06 now for the 99bob 21:08:27 (you can count with it with not much effort) 21:08:28 :) laurent has done it already 21:08:39 i'm not skilled enough 21:09:00 http://lvogel.free.fr/ 21:09:08 he has cool stuff on his site 21:09:11 I guess replacing 9->8, 8->7, etc. can make it count down 21:09:29 (with some marker or whatever) 21:10:04 oh, yeah, that's where I got lament's link from 21:10:14 ok 21:11:19 Unary arithmetic is easiest. You just need a long string of 'x's. 21:11:25 That's what I've used in most of my sed programs. 21:12:05 :) 21:12:21 Although my fibonacci calculator used decimal numbers and had a decimal addition part. 21:17:10 gtg, bye 21:17:25 bye 21:18:03 Now, should I bring out my laptop and work on the Kipple interpreter or ORK 0.8 .... 21:18:08 Or should I do more yard work .... 21:18:27 kipple interpreter :) 21:18:52 Y'know, that yard work does sound mighty appealing. 21:18:54 let the nature take care of that yard ;) 21:19:00 X-D 21:19:09 Right now we're killing everything. 21:19:19 true 21:19:48 Sadly, I HAVE to do yard work, where as I don't HAVE to do the Kipple interpreter, so see you in 30 min or so >_O 21:20:04 :) ok 21:26:45 There was a thue interpreter somewhere? 21:26:58 yeah 21:27:12 try that laurent's site 21:27:16 (link above) 21:32:59 Hmnn. 21:33:15 I tried thue.c, but I'm not sure it works correctly. 21:33:42 are you sure your program is correct? ;) 21:34:31 No, but I'm running this in the debugging mode and it does: 21:34:35 AaB!gcgcDZ 21:34:35 AaB!g!BcDZ 21:34:44 ummmm 21:34:50 what laurent's site 21:34:51 Where the only "cg" production is "cg::=gc" 21:34:52 it's MY site!!!! 21:35:04 fizzie: use my site 21:35:18 http://z3.ca/~lament/thue.html 21:35:38 except that it seems down 21:35:43 := 21:35:56 (but there was that waybackmachine link in the channel log) 21:41:44 Mm. Well, that javascript interpreter did do what I was expecting it to. 21:52:54 go javascript! 22:21:47 thue is so neat.. 22:30:15 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:30:20 hello 22:41:34 Hoi 22:41:37 Constants working now :) 22:41:54 And I also covered a bug that would allow you to say something like: 22:42:01 My value is 5 * 5. 22:42:04 That would be bad! 22:43:07 :) 22:52:45 Now, to make classes able to say things. 22:52:46 Hmm 22:56:54 Tada 22:57:28 :) 23:01:07 How's the syntax like? 'Foo can say ..'? 23:01:22 "A {class} can say {variable}." 23:01:25 Then "I am to say {variable} 23:01:26 or 23:01:30 "I am not to say {variable} 23:03:26 'k. Hmnnn.. then there was some strangeness in the naming. Seems I can't use multi-word method names. :/ They work correctly in invocations ("lookup table is to print out the table" => "... print_out_the_table()") but not in function declarations, which uses only 'print' as the name and (possibly) assumes the rest to be a parameter specifier or something. 23:03:52 Not a horrible problem, though. 23:03:53 Yes, I'm well aware. 23:03:57 It's a problem of English grammar. 23:04:01 How are you supposed to parse: 23:04:16 "My object is to mercilessly devour Bob." 23:04:37 The parser would have to actually know the difference between adjectives, verbs and nouns. 23:04:43 And I'm not willing to go there ;) 23:04:50 So methods need to have one word names :P 23:05:49 Well, you could try to find the longest or shortest matching method name. But I guess it's not necessary. 23:06:08 For the sake of my sanity, I'm leaving it as it is for the moment ;) 23:06:29 I'm too tired to do anything ork-ish today (01am and I actually need to wake up tomorrow), but I'll convert my logician to use that funky new 'say' system when I have time. 23:07:13 Heheh 23:07:18 I didn't implement a logician class ;) 23:07:20 Just for you ;) 23:07:24 But I did implement floor. 23:08:10 "Yay." 23:08:18 For not implementing the logician. :p 23:09:13 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/ < 0.8 is out 23:25:24 here's my first real thue program: 23:25:25 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/thue/digitalr.t 23:25:45 it calculates the digital root 23:25:57 (yeah, i know, it's my traditional program..) 23:26:19 (but i like digital root :)) 23:26:47 Still not in 2L though ;) 23:27:00 nope 23:27:05 yet :) 23:27:10 i hope i can try it sometime 23:27:17 won't promise anything 23:28:56 anyways.. i'll go 23:29:02 Bye :P 23:29:03 i start to be sleepy 23:29:05 bye :) 23:29:08 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 23:29:11 Fibonacci is my traditional program, usually closely followed by a befunge interpreter. 23:30:15 Fibonacci was my first ORK program. 23:30:19 Well, after Hello World *shrugs* 2005-05-15: 00:04:35 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 00:05:09 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:01:38 -!- wooby has joined. 02:01:44 hello 02:10:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:25:08 yes, hello 02:25:09 i agree 02:36:00 :) 02:36:51 working on a BF compiler of sorts if anyone wants to check it out 02:40:56 bf is the target heh 02:41:02 http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php, http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php.txt 02:41:10 what's the source? 02:42:35 okay 02:42:41 is your source language turing-complete? 02:42:49 is it easier to use than brainfuck? 02:43:34 well, it doesn't do enough yet to really qualify as its own real language 02:43:52 but i hope for it to eventually be basic-like, so yes it should be turing complete (mind memory restrictions) 02:44:54 cool 02:44:58 are you aware of calamari's work? 02:45:21 the basic compiler 02:45:30 i am not 02:45:53 oh 02:45:56 you should talk to him 02:46:02 he comes here often i think 02:46:16 dunno where his site is, but he made a basic 2 bf compiler 02:46:24 what's he working on? 02:46:28 oh awesome, that's right up my alley 02:47:04 he's working on a c compiler 02:47:09 not sure if actively or not 02:47:14 (c 2 bf) 02:47:33 cool 02:47:56 yeah i've seen a perl BF macro script... converts a sort of asm to BF 02:48:11 but a real compiler would be sweet :) 02:49:01 yeah 02:50:21 so what are your interests? 02:53:35 sex 02:53:50 i dig it 02:54:02 music 03:39:53 -!- tokigun has joined. 03:40:01 hello tokigun 03:40:22 hello :) 03:42:29 what's new 03:49:25 hello world 03:50:21 http://www.animalsontheunderground.com/ 03:51:25 it's.. something 03:52:21 ha cool 03:55:16 argh.. ioccc deadline is coming, and i need an inspiration :( 03:55:48 -!- calamari has joined. 03:56:02 hello calamari 03:56:09 hi wooby 03:56:22 how's it going? 03:56:26 lament was telling me about some of your work with basic->bf and c->bf 03:56:47 oh yeah? 03:56:54 yeah, i'm really interested in that 03:57:12 was wondering if you had any software completed? 03:57:26 today i hacked out a proof of concept thing in PHP that does some lame stuff 03:57:32 for bfbasic? sure 03:57:58 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:58:00 not the c compiler, though. I started it and realized I didn't have sufficient clue to complete it properly (yet) 03:58:16 yeah it would be a tough one 03:59:22 i have a friend who's done a bf environment in vhdl... runs on an fpga 03:59:31 would be cool to write neat stuff that runs on it 03:59:35 yeah! 03:59:52 http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=59653 03:59:56 also wandered across a hardware bf machine design on some website 04:00:03 you can get the latest cvs version of bfbasic from there 04:00:44 last time it was worked on was spring break 04:01:39 i'll have a stab at it 04:02:03 it's written in Java, so hopefully it won't be too big a deal to get it to compile 04:02:22 that's perfect, i know java best 04:02:27 if you have any problems: jeff at kidsquid dot com 04:02:30 much to my own detriment lol 04:02:38 hey, I like Java :) 04:03:23 feels like basic used to for me.. able to just get things done without too much hassle 04:04:32 yeah, i feel the same way 04:04:53 you might also check out bfasm... it's a little dated now (bfbasic has kinda shown it up with the backend) .. http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/compilers/bfasm/bfasm.html 04:06:28 I'll be using bfasm, or a rewritten version of it when I write the c compiler 04:06:49 that way I can compile c to asm and assemble it in a separate step 04:07:23 i see 04:07:46 if I knew the technicals of gcc better, I'd probably be able to write a backend for it and call it done 04:08:06 yeah, well that's the ultimate solution 04:08:12 a c->bf toolchain 04:08:25 yeah it'd be gcc -> bfasm -> bf 04:08:26 but also would be ridiculously complicated heh 04:10:02 I dunno.. I think it wouldn't be too bad given decent documentation 04:10:28 anyhow.. :) 04:10:42 have you created any esolangs? 04:10:46 this program is awesome 04:10:55 not really just tinkered with Bf on and off 04:10:59 started off with a java interpreter 04:11:04 then got to thinking about a compiler 04:11:12 go for it! 04:11:32 http://www.neologic.net/ad/programs/Brainfuck.java 04:11:56 here's the fruit of today's efforts: http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php 04:11:58 maybe Malbolge to bf? or bf to Malbolge? 04:12:15 see also http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php.txt 04:15:01 cool 04:15:20 you do realize once you start down this path you may never be sane again? :) 04:15:29 lol yes 04:15:40 don't understand my fascination... just goin with it :) 04:16:16 it started to get bad when i was writing CGI pages in BF just because i could lol 04:16:40 yeah.. you've written a string -> bf generator? 04:18:30 that is something I've been pretty interested in as well (optimal bf code to reproduce a certain string). wrote a genetic bf text generator, but it's from scratch, so it's probably way off from real genetic programming 04:18:40 yeah 04:18:48 jeez i can't remember the problem 04:18:56 but theres this famous problem of generating the most output from the least code 04:19:13 +[.] 04:19:23 the "busy bee" problem or something? anyways i've put some thought into how to best compress strings and large numbers 04:19:36 ah ok 04:19:39 turing machine busy beaver 04:19:54 Given a fixed finite number of symbols and states, select those Turing machine programs which eventually halt when run with a blank tape. Among these programs find the maximum number of non-blank symbols left on the tape when they halt. 04:20:04 hmm, hadn't considered compression.. that's a good idea 04:20:21 goes along with the problem of storing large numbers in BF cells with minimal code 04:20:37 i came across a page that had a bunch of different appraoches, the most efficient being solutions that used exponents 04:20:45 i wrote one in php that spit out multiplications ops 04:23:02 but yeah, this bfbasic program is great... very comprensive! 04:23:11 thanks 04:31:19 are you in school? 04:31:34 yep, you? 04:31:50 attending the University of Arizona 04:32:14 went to Rochester Institute of Technology for a time, now on a sort of hiatus 04:34:01 -!- puzzlet has quit ("reboot"). 04:35:17 could say my esoteric language fascination led me to the army... where i learned arabic heh 04:36:02 oh, neat 04:37:11 hm, i really do need to come up with my own esoteric language now that you mention it 04:38:47 I've been trying to figure out what the Fractal language (Star Trek) should be like 04:39:11 no breakthroughs yet :) 04:39:55 ha, can't recall it 04:40:00 it's from the original series? 04:42:29 next generation.. ever once in a while Data will use a fractal program.. in one movie he locks the borg out with a "fractal encryption code" whatever that is :) 04:43:27 there are never any details, but I take it to be highly difficult to program in and somewhat powerful in its abilities 04:46:25 ah 04:46:51 heh, i saw the episode a few weeks ago where data spits out his specifications 04:47:13 a sorry 6 tflops! 04:55:41 hm, does bfbasic handle negatives? 06:16:58 -!- wooby has quit ("BitchX: it's all day strong, all day long"). 06:38:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 06:39:26 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:26:12 (wooby): not really.. doesn't handle floating point either 07:26:14 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:15 So, I have an excellent story. 08:19:18 -!- Keymaker has joined. 08:19:28 I will repeat this since Keymaker just joined ;) 08:19:30 So, I have an excellent story. 08:19:37 I was just out with some friends ... 08:19:44 And we were parked in a parking lot. 08:19:48 While somebody was in a store. 08:19:57 The rest of us were watching this guy in his apartment. 08:20:06 (Since his window was open, and so were his drapes) 08:20:13 He was walking around in his underwear. 08:20:17 Then he removed his underwear. 08:20:30 Then he sat down at his computer, and (we can only presume) began to masturbate to porn. 08:20:45 After a discussion over what we should do to freak him out, we decided to scream "Jesus" at him. 08:20:48 And so we did. 08:20:55 He stood up, quite freaked out. 08:21:01 And we laughed and laughed and laughed. 08:21:04 (And left, of course) 08:26:31 :D 08:28:05 Teaches him a good lesson in closing his window that is OVER A PUBLICLY ACCESSABLE, OPEN 24-HRS PARKING LOT 08:28:19 yeah 08:28:20 lol 08:29:27 And that is the story of why I didn't finish the Kipple interpreter today :-P 08:29:31 Off to sleep with me. 08:29:32 Bye 08:29:34 :) 08:29:35 bye 09:49:36 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 09:59:49 -!- wooby_ has joined. 10:17:37 -!- wooby_ has quit ("[BX] Size DOES matter"). 13:15:22 -!- kipple has joined. 13:39:28 I've been trying to figure out what the Fractal language (Star Trek) should be like 13:39:42 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html <- pretty much like that I think 18:53:21 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:53:39 this new opera is really cool 18:53:53 i must get the version 8 to linux as well 18:54:26 well, must go. 18:54:28 bye 18:54:30 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:35:07 bye 19:35:09 -!- tokigun has quit ("leaving"). 20:50:16 -!- wooby has joined. 2005-05-16: 01:25:22 It's quiet today. 01:25:31 ..............................too quiet 8-O 02:33:47 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:36:46 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Client Quit). 04:39:10 hio 04:57:25 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:57:33 -!- lament has quit ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"). 07:53:52 -!- lament has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:34:35 -!- tokigun has joined. 11:56:39 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 11:57:02 -!- ChanServ has joined. 11:57:02 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 11:59:13 -!- kipple has joined. 12:02:40 hi 12:27:14 hey 12:33:47 -!- Xin_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:22:30 -!- tokigun has quit ("leaving"). 17:12:00 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:12:20 mmh.. this new opera is a dreambrowser.. 17:12:58 is it? 17:13:06 What, so instead of the Internet it browses dreams? 17:13:31 that's right 17:13:32 We have a campus license here, I could install it here, but haven't felt the need yet. 17:15:28 :) 17:15:50 first time i'm trying these new skins that can be downloaded 17:15:54 looks nice 17:43:21 msbbhl (must study.. be back (hopefully) later) 17:43:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:26:50 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:42:37 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:52:37 grgh 19:53:46 what's crackin 19:54:09 ? 20:07:10 -!- wooby has quit ("brb"). 20:07:55 -!- wooby has joined. 20:47:05 grhhh thue drives me mad :) 20:47:18 (not angry, but insane) 20:48:03 i just read about it the other day, never messed with it 20:48:19 yeah these esoteric languages are a trip 20:48:26 yeah :) 20:49:07 I just wrote a grammar for the language: "a^m b^n c^(m+n)". Looking at old exams here, 'introduction to theoretical computer science' exam tomorrow. "S -> aSc | E", "E -> bEc | _". Then something just snapped and I wrote a mostly thue-compatible (small notational differences) non-context-free version at http://www.gehennom.org/~fis/grammar.txt which manages to be about gazillion times more complicated than necessary. 20:49:07 have yet to come up with my own 20:49:49 seems interesting fizzie 20:49:58 (although i have no idea what it does) 20:52:38 It just constructs all strings that have n 'a':s, m 'b':s and (m+n) 'c':s. It's not really thue-friendly, though. 20:52:55 It's just interesting how over-complicated that thing can be. 20:56:11 push @{$a}, [$r, $pk, [$ss, $start-1, $i, $si], [$es, $end-1, $i+$start, $ei]] if($#{$p} == 1 && $p->[0] eq $ss && $p->[1] eq $es); 20:56:14 Perl is pretty. 20:56:33 Maybe my variable naming is suboptimal. 20:59:17 uh.. 20:59:21 * Keymaker braindies 20:59:30 well, better get some rest 20:59:39 oh, and i got the small thue prog done i was working on 20:59:49 (just exercise.) 20:59:53 nite 21:00:00 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:00:31 i say, go for supoptimal variable naming 21:00:31 http://www.gehennom.org/~fis/a_simple_loop.txt :) (Sorry for the non-esoteristicnessity.) 21:00:35 we're in #esoteric after all! 21:02:46 I guess I should do something with ORK. Maybe after the exams tomorrow. 23:02:45 -!- pgimeno has joined. 23:03:37 hooray, power outage season is here! how I was missing it! 23:56:46 -!- pgimeno has quit ("rebooting"). 2005-05-17: 00:01:34 -!- pgimeno has joined. 01:00:39 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 01:01:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:57:43 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:51:33 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 06:51:41 I just compiled 2LI for DOS, 16-bit 8-D 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:03:02 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:59:12 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:01:00 -!- pgimeno has joined. 11:01:10 did I mention it's power outage season? 13:13:21 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:18:14 -!- pgimeno has joined. 13:18:22 ... 16:44:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:47:53 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:48:11 ah, good ol' power outage season! 19:48:33 look, here they come again! power off!!!!11 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:49:19 anyways, don't take me seriously.. :) hopefully they'll end sometime soon pgimeno 19:52:12 hmm. the washing machine sounds funny 19:54:58 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:57:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:57:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:58:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 20:03:35 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:46:37 -!- kipple has joined. 22:54:17 -!- Flax has joined. 23:15:01 Gregor: Ork is now featured at www.99-bottles-of-beer.net :) 23:19:18 Hoopla 8-D 23:21:42 but it lacks 2L... ;) 23:22:23 *brain explodes* 23:22:25 -!- Flax has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:22:32 I think I could do it *shrugs* 23:22:48 I won't ... 23:22:51 But I could :-P 23:23:59 at some time I'll write that JS or Python ORK interpreter... 23:25:21 I'll believe it when I see it ;) 23:25:34 No offense to your pythonin' or Javascriptin' abilities of course. 23:26:01 hehe 23:26:22 I've writing a symbolic derivative calculator in JS already 23:26:35 does ORK have any implementation? 23:26:45 Here's a challenge: a version of 99-bottles-of-beer written in Brainfuck or some equally terse language, in which the "singer" gets progressively more drunk. Also, "pass it around" becomes "drink it all down" 23:26:47 Only a compiler. 23:27:17 but the compiler is nice. 23:27:19 more drunk? 23:27:29 Slurs words, t->sh etc. 23:27:40 haha 23:27:58 Maybe it would end at around 85 by just going ei...bo-bee...*slam* 23:28:11 World of Warcraft has a function like that 23:28:22 lol 23:28:25 So do many MUDs. 23:28:50 ew MUDS 23:28:50 you get slurred words, but also blurred vision 23:29:02 Nice :-P 23:29:09 lament: I'll ignore that comment ;) 2005-05-18: 02:12:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:30:31 -!- kipple has joined. 14:53:18 -!- Taaus has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:04:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:04:41 -!- calamari has joined. 19:40:18 -!- wooby has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:40:51 -!- wooby has joined. 20:12:44 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:13:09 hllo 20:21:31 grhh.. something's wrong with this connection today.. i'd rather have one of those power outages than this, afterall i could look at the screen in candle light just as easily.. 20:21:49 :) 20:22:12 :) 20:22:48 hello, btw.. :) 20:23:31 yeah. hi! 20:23:42 it's been quiet here lately 20:23:46 yeah 20:23:57 i've been annoyingly busy 20:24:05 (and will be the next week and bit more) 20:24:15 and then i can spend here more time.. i hope.. 20:25:03 I've started putting together an esoteric web page 20:25:10 that's cool! 20:25:10 but not much stuff yet 20:25:15 ok 20:25:18 My exam period is over! 20:25:23 nice 20:25:25 good for you 20:25:33 mine is about to start next week.. 20:25:35 Now if I could just get rid of tiredness.. 20:25:42 sleep? 20:25:58 That's what I've been trying. 20:25:59 yeah, you might try that 20:26:04 :) 20:26:28 hmm.. try to watch tv. everything's so (#/)(#321! boring there thesedays 20:26:41 I'm off to see Lost in 10 mins... 20:26:56 ok (whatever it is) 20:26:59 (#/)(#321! - is that a new esolang? 20:27:15 it could be 20:27:37 I was also going to teach/promote Befunge to my girlfriend, so that she'd appreciate esolangs more. I'm currently trying to decide if that's a good idea or not. 20:27:55 ummm 20:28:01 sounds risky... :) 20:28:17 :) 20:28:41 pgimeno: you wish.. just random keys 20:28:51 I think I recall her mentioning she liked Scheme more than C, so... 20:29:29 oh well, maybe she's lambda-oriented 20:29:30 :) 20:29:44 unlambda you mean 20:29:51 probably 20:29:55 I meant lambda calculus in general 20:29:59 ah 20:30:05 not my cup of tea 20:30:07 unlambda may fit well 20:30:18 i'd like to learn unlambda sometime 20:30:21 or jot 20:30:23 Befunge isn't very functional, though. But I don't speak unlambda at all myself. 20:30:26 although it's not my cup of tea either 20:30:30 me too, Keymaker 20:30:46 it's too strange :} 20:30:54 I'm not very comfortable with Scheme, I use it as any other imperative language 20:31:01 never tried that 20:31:07 didn't like its look 20:31:11 isn't that the Lisp-like lang? 20:31:15 yes 20:31:22 I've tried Lisp 20:31:23 Most people do call it a lisp dialect. 20:31:28 ok 20:31:35 It's a lot cleaner than common lisp, though. 20:31:47 agree 20:31:50 Lisp is extremely cool, but I wouldn't use it normally 20:31:56 I needed it to write GIMP scripts, that's why I learned it 20:32:54 Our "introduction to programming" course I went to a ~year ago has traditionally used Scheme. (Although they moved to Java now.) 20:33:11 eek 20:33:51 they'll be teaching ork when there's a virtual machine compiler ready 20:34:09 We've been quite unhappy about the switch, actually. Java courses tend to teach Java, not programming. 20:34:18 there's an old joke which is something like: "We've stolen the Lisp source code to [insert some famous software], and to prove it we will give you the last page". 20:34:26 yeah, too idiosyncratic 20:34:31 then they give you a page full of )))))))))))))))))) 20:34:39 hehehehe 20:34:50 oh well, Derive (the math package) is written in Lisp 20:35:15 I don't think I've had more than 14 consecutive )s, but I haven't written anything very big in scheme. A corewars interpreter/environment/thing once. 20:35:15 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:35:18 as is Maxima (the math package) 20:35:21 hi GregorR 20:35:24 hi GregorR-L 20:35:27 Hoi 20:36:01 Gregor needs to be entertained for an hour of free time in the middle of his day :-P 20:36:08 corewars interpreter? uhm, too big a prog for me to write in that thing, I'm no so masochists 20:36:23 -s 20:36:30 * kipple is gone to watch TV 20:36:33 that's why I'm using malbolge :) 20:36:37 hi all 20:36:42 hi lament 20:37:14 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:39:29 you know what's boring? 20:39:31 Well, it was for the course, not a voluntary thing. The list of possible topics mostly included various small games, corewars sounded most interesting of them. (Compared to a spreadsheet application or graph algorithm visualization.) 20:39:32 this CS lab is boring. 20:39:45 Besides, the "gui toolkit" (if you can call it that) we were supposed to use was... horrible. 20:40:17 http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.210/xdraw-doc/ 20:40:26 It can draw lines and fill rectangles, and that's about it. 20:40:44 A "do your own widgets" thing. 20:41:48 argh 20:42:22 only marginally better than plain DOS 20:43:18 I guess they wanted all applications to have different-looking buttons, otherwise inspecting the results would've been too boring. 20:45:02 I'm sooooooooo close to a working Kipple interpreter :-P 20:45:02 On line 585 20:45:04 that's only an excuse if the only available GUI was Athena widgets 20:45:27 s/GUI/widget set/ 20:46:16 GregorR-L: on line 585 what? 20:46:33 w000000000000000000000t! 20:46:42 keep working gregorr! 20:46:48 sounds impressive 20:47:12 (on a sidenote, i was away for a while because i was eating evening-breakfast) 20:49:30 Well, xdraw is admittedly quite portable... although a significant minority (if not majority) of the submitted programs had issues with text placement on the IRIX boxen the demo sessions were on. (Default fonts on those things are _huge_.) 20:49:58 Not many had sophisticated layout managers to cope with different font sizes. :p 20:50:12 Of OrKipple 20:50:12 It pushes now :P 20:50:59 good! 20:51:23 GregorR-L: what's the status of arrays in Ork? 20:51:38 inexistent? 20:51:46 complete? 20:52:05 And what about non-string/number-arrays? 20:52:38 an OOL needs O arrays 20:52:47 OOL? 20:52:52 object-oriented language 20:52:57 ah. 20:56:13 Ooh, and generics/templates. Then someone can implement rest of the collection classes in ORK. "There is such a thing as a hashmap of K, V. A hashmap of K, V has a key which is a K. --- I have a hashmap of number, string called map." 20:59:01 Oh, hi. 20:59:14 For other arrays you'd need to use something like linear linked lists. 20:59:20 For the moment *shrugs* 20:59:53 And templates would just be a matter of writing them - anybody want to volunteer? 21:00:45 Well, linked lists aren't that bad. 21:01:43 But a generic 'void *'-style type could help. It's a bit silly to have a separate linked list class for oranges and apples. 21:01:54 Or the templates. :p 21:02:49 I probably won't have time to consider volunteering or anything before next week, though. 21:12:00 anyways. good luck with the kipple interpreter gergor 21:12:04 *grrog 21:12:08 *gregorr 21:12:19 too much grog? 21:12:24 :) 21:13:24 rhh.. me start to be reading-ready. me goes to bed to read something. 21:14:26 * Keymaker says: "Goodnite! Aaarrrgh." 21:14:30 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 21:14:47 Arrr. 21:16:42 any python expert around? 21:17:47 -lilo/Wallops- Hi all. Just a reminder. We're still looking for help with coding the next generation replacement for services. The project is at its very early stages; have spec, need coder help. 21:18:45 http://dunnage.blogspot.com/2005/05/reprise-seeking-volunteer-coding-help.html 21:19:18 i'm sort of expert 21:19:32 -lilo/Wallops- Right now, I think the python help would be the priority. If you're interested in talking about it, feel free to message me. Thanks. 21:19:43 oh, not that kind of expert :) 21:19:51 oh 21:20:02 I'm too new to Python 21:27:11 Gregor: great news about the interpreter! can't wait :) 21:27:15 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:11:58 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:13:42 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:14:02 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:14:18 OK, I have everything working except input, output, @ and the string preprocessor :-P 23:14:36 the preprocessor is optional 23:14:39 good work! 23:14:42 w00t! 23:14:53 * GregorR-L tosses the preprocessor out the window 23:15:35 So, kipple, quick question, if the input was "Hello World!" the ! would pop first, right? 23:16:49 And if you produced output by pushing H-e-l-l-o, it would output "olleH", yes? 23:16:52 yes 23:16:59 and yes 23:17:04 Okiday. 23:20:59 btw, the @ stack will probably be gone in the next version... :D 23:23:06 That'll help :-P 23:23:16 Making wussy users use atoi is infinitely better anyway. 23:23:25 heh 23:24:06 but I don't think you'll want to implement the next version in ORK ;) 23:24:31 it has the ability to load code modules 23:25:05 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 23:25:11 IE from seperate files? 23:25:21 yes. or inline 23:25:45 or kipple files, java classes or C libraries 23:26:49 X-D 23:26:59 Both Java and C eh? 23:27:13 or anything else that can produce a .so or .dll 23:27:28 So you'd need gcj? 23:27:35 uh, no 23:27:38 what do you mean? 23:27:44 To turn java into a .so 23:27:59 Or would it actually read .class files? 23:28:04 yes 23:28:09 Ouch. 23:28:12 Good luck with that >_> 23:28:12 it is written in java, so that is trivial 23:28:23 OOOOOOOOOOOOOH 23:28:25 *whew* 23:28:29 Line 1153 btw :-P 23:28:38 ai 23:28:59 did you have to add more features to ORK to make it? 23:29:05 Nope 23:29:13 No cheating for me ;) 23:29:20 so it's pretty final now? 23:29:26 Very nearly. 23:29:30 Hopefully I just have to get o working. 23:31:09 1161 lines, and maybe working now 8-D 23:33:20 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 23:33:22 IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:33:24 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 23:33:25 yay! 23:33:29 *dies* 23:33:56 whee 23:34:15 ~praise GregorR-L 23:34:26 R.I.P. 23:37:23 :-P 23:37:35 Apparently either i or o isn't quite working properly :'( 23:37:42 Actually, it must be i. 23:37:45 Since o works fine. 23:41:10 Nope, it's loops :-P 23:49:36 YESSSSSSSS! 23:49:39 AHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA again 23:49:43 Now it really works ;) 23:50:08 No @ yet >_< 23:50:11 @ = annoying :-P 23:50:26 hehe 23:51:10 If you push ASCII 113 onto @, does it pop 1-1-3 or 3-1-1? 23:51:19 hmm 23:51:24 lol 23:51:26 let me see 23:51:40 I think it pops 3-1-1 23:52:03 it pushes 1-1-3, so yes, you're right 23:52:09 Okiday 23:52:16 *brain melts* 23:53:04 that's the most practial way to pop. Otherwise you would have to reverse it before output 23:56:44 Right 23:57:52 Blah 23:58:08 The Fibonacci'r isn't working. 23:58:22 Or more correctly, my interpreter isn't working for the Fibonacci'r. 23:58:40 is it the @? 23:59:14 I don't think so. 23:59:18 I got that working (sort of) 23:59:29 -!- wooby has quit. 23:59:37 Yeah, that works fine. 2005-05-19: 00:01:33 Damn, what's going wrong >_O 00:03:33 The fact that the quine doesn't quite work for me other isn't promising :-P 00:03:51 so, which ones do work? 00:04:43 Hello World, cat :-P 00:05:08 could it be nested loops? 00:05:17 Possible. 00:05:38 * GregorR-L checks his loop push-pop-ing code 00:08:50 That all seems fine 00:11:53 D'OH 00:12:01 ? clears it if the top element is 0, yes? 00:12:06 yes 00:12:14 I made it just clear X-D 00:12:33 :P 00:14:45 YAY! Now it segfaults 8-D 00:15:44 Well, it does more now :-P 00:15:59 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 < this is the fibonacci sequence, right? ;) 00:16:17 ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 00:16:20 almost :) 00:16:47 Well, that's MY Fibonacci sequence :-P 00:17:01 mine is even better 00:17:06 my fibonacci sequence goes like this: 00:17:09 1 1 00:17:11 and then it stops 00:17:19 Nice 00:21:28 Hmm 00:21:31 What's the purpose of a+0 00:21:35 Doesn't that just do nothing? 00:21:49 no it duplicates the top value on the stack 00:21:56 very useful! 00:22:11 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 00:22:17 Everything I make is wrong! 00:22:18 :-P 00:22:35 have you messed up the + operator now? 00:23:44 I had ;-P 00:24:03 So if you do a+b, it WILL pop b, right? 00:24:50 yes 00:24:59 *whew* :-P 00:25:36 So tb+a will pop a three times, right? 00:25:52 yes 00:26:06 maybe this will help: 00:26:07 public void execute() throws StackException { 00:26:07 switch(operator) { 00:26:07 case '<': operand1.push(operand2.pop()); 00:26:07 break; 00:26:07 case '>': operand2.push(operand1.pop()); 00:26:08 break; 00:26:10 case '-': operand1.push(operand1.peek() - operand2.pop()); 00:26:12 break; 00:26:14 case '+': operand1.push(operand1.peek() + operand2.pop()); 00:26:16 break; 00:26:18 case '?': if (operand1.peek()==0) operand1.clear(); 00:26:20 break; 00:26:22 case '(': jump = operand2.empty();//!continueLoop(); 00:26:24 break; 00:26:26 case ')': jump = !loopOperator.operand2.empty(); 00:26:29 break; 00:26:31 } 00:26:32 } 00:26:34 (from the interpreter) 00:26:35 Who reads code before trying to reimplement it *shrugs* 00:27:00 if you read the spec, you wouldn't need to ;) 00:27:49 I did, I just didn't quite get it right 8-D 00:28:18 Dern, this ought to work >_> 00:28:21 let me know if the spec is unclear on some points 00:28:58 No, I'm just dumb on some points 8-D 00:29:06 good ;) 00:32:19 Hmm 00:32:25 I wish I knew what was going wrong :'( 00:36:04 YAY! 00:36:09 That was the change that made it work 8-D 00:36:49 Now I just need a smarter atoi :-P 00:39:10 BING 8-D 00:39:25 44K X-D 00:39:35 1239 lines 8-D 00:39:38 hehe 00:40:07 are you sick of the mathematician now, or what.... :D 00:42:08 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/orkipple.ork 00:42:11 Oh yeah. 00:42:11 Very 00:42:19 Not that I'll fix it, since it's not broken. 00:42:37 of course not!! 00:43:07 so you can't have arrays of objects? 00:43:13 Not per se. 00:43:17 Lists yes. 00:47:49 * kipple is compiling ork-0.8 00:51:29 hmm. can't get it to work 00:51:46 You have to EOF at the end of your input. 00:52:03 hello world doesn't output anything 00:52:05 Or is it ork-0.8 yourself you can't get to work? 00:52:08 no 00:52:13 Hmm 00:52:20 The non-string version I assume ;) 00:52:26 dang! 00:52:30 I'm stupid 00:52:33 X-D 00:52:38 No string preprocessor ;) 00:53:54 the @ stack works a bit differently, but otherwise it seems to work fine :) 00:54:04 Yeah, I know I handled it badly :-P 00:54:14 It outputs 000001 :-P 01:02:24 it doesn't handle !s in comments 01:02:52 otherwise, I ran the kipple brainfuck interpreter just fine :D 01:10:31 Oh, yeah, ! is the separator between kipple and input. 01:10:45 yeah, I found that out 01:10:57 had some of those in comments in the BF interpreter 01:22:57 anyway, great work Gregor!!! 03:38:55 Pong. 03:56:08 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:57:21 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:02:04 -!- calamari has joined. 06:02:13 hi 06:16:10 Hoi 06:19:19 it? goes How 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:05:10 hi 10:04:27 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:16 -!- calamari has joined. 11:11:34 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:29:54 -!- kipple has joined. 13:06:43 -!- Zis has joined. 13:06:53 -!- Zis has left (?). 18:37:40 -!- fizzie has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:37:40 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:40:28 -!- kipple has joined. 18:40:28 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:21:52 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:21:56 'ello! 19:21:59 woah 19:22:06 you made it gregorr 19:22:17 :) 19:22:21 yeah, he did 19:22:25 really cool 19:22:45 i'll need to compile it soon 19:22:54 and start programming some kipple stuff 19:24:13 if i remember the log correct, it works perfectly.. all but text preprocessor which is basically useles 19:24:26 and i wouldn't use it (text preprocessor) 19:24:55 and the @ stack pads up to six (i think) zeroes 19:25:35 hmm 19:25:36 otherwise it seems to be the same 19:25:40 yeah 19:25:57 and i can always test them with the official applet in web ;) 19:26:02 yup 19:26:10 be sure to not use ! in comments 19:26:16 hmm? 19:26:17 why not 19:26:40 because that is the char which is used to separate source code from input data 19:26:51 ah 19:26:56 cat example: (i>o) ! this is a text 19:27:04 yeah 19:28:24 hmmm 19:28:32 what was the link to gregorr's site? 19:28:42 http://eso.codu.org/ 19:28:46 cheers 19:37:26 -!- Kmkr has joined. 19:37:50 rrghrghhhhhhhh 19:37:57 net outage season is here again.. 19:38:53 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:39:09 Keymaker: are you running linux? 19:39:11 -!- lindi- has joined. 19:39:38 not currently 19:39:40 you can compile my interpreter with gcj if you don't want to use the java version 19:40:05 i tried but couldn't it compiled 19:40:13 on windows? 19:40:16 maybe if you could send compiler version..? 19:40:23 on linux 19:40:24 it compiled fine on my debian box 19:40:44 i suck with compilers 19:40:59 gcj 3.3.5 19:42:02 i meant "..send the compiler version" 19:42:10 can't type today 19:42:17 ah, you mean the binary? 19:42:24 arg 19:42:27 i meant "compiled" 19:42:29 yeah 19:42:35 sorry :D lol typed it two times wrong 19:42:55 i accidentally typed the second time wrong when i was trying to get it right :) 19:43:00 yes 19:43:13 so, binary 19:43:39 although i accidentally wrote two times "compiler".. so, not any java compiler 19:44:16 Kmkr: why don't you just install gcj? 19:44:42 it's harder that way :) 19:44:48 probably couldn't get it working 19:44:53 here's how to compile it: gcj --main=Kipple Kipple.jar -o kipple 19:45:16 where to get the kipple.jar? 19:45:38 (from your site probably.. duh) 19:45:41 iyeah 19:45:43 :) 19:45:51 i'll switch to linux in phew minutes 19:45:56 but it looks like my server just went down again >:( 19:46:28 aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh 19:46:49 hmm. looks like it's only apache. hang on a sec 19:47:02 kipple: anyways, thanks for making sure kipple runs with free software 19:47:53 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:47 -!- Kmkr2 has joined. 19:49:52 grggh 19:50:18 problems? 19:50:56 yes 19:50:59 -!- Kmkr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:51:13 -!- Kmkr2 has left (?). 19:52:43 -!- Kmkr3 has joined. 19:53:15 ..with this internet connection.. 19:53:27 anyways. can you get the server up anytime soon? 19:53:49 hopefully in a few minutes 19:53:59 'ok 19:54:32 i'm gonna die if this connection goes the same way than it was the previous summer 19:54:32 or at least complain 19:54:49 or change the whole thing to some other 20:14:31 argh. doesn't look too good for the server 20:42:22 -!- Kmkr3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:35:12 *beep ... beep ... beep* 21:35:29 *the camera fades in and the viewer can see kipple's server in a hospital bed* 21:35:39 Doc ... is (s)he gonna live? 21:36:13 not sure. last time he went down he was in a coma for a week, and then made a miraculous recovery 21:36:21 It's too early to tell, but the cancer is severe. It's unlikely that (s)he will see his/her next birthday. 21:36:30 Darn, I was in the middle of writing your line when you said it X-D 21:37:14 and it's a he, by the way 21:37:49 I think I'll have to reinstall it 21:38:06 maybe next week 21:41:39 I was unaware of the fact that servers had genders, but couldn't use the word it since that would imply that it wasn't living. 21:41:47 Which it clearly is. 21:46:52 computers have names, and names are usually gender specific 21:47:03 it is called slartibartfast 23:03:36 -!- andreou has joined. 23:05:42 hola 23:11:22 -!- andreou has quit ("~"). 2005-05-20: 01:03:01 -!- fizzie has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:03:01 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:08:53 -!- kipple has joined. 01:11:18 -!- fizzie has joined. 04:02:35 BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 04:02:48 * GregorR prepares mercilessly to release OBLISK 1.0.0 >:) 04:02:58 (unto an unsuspecting world) 04:20:58 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:12:48 what what 05:28:36 * GregorR is doing the finishing touches on OBLISK ( http://oblisk.codu.org/ ) 1.0.0 05:28:41 That's what what ;) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:59:27 generic installer? *mumble mumble* 12:38:28 -!- kipple has joined. 13:53:27 -!- Kmkr3 has joined. 13:53:37 hrehrhh 13:53:40 -!- Kmkr3 has changed nick to Keymaker. 13:53:44 my head feels strange 13:53:58 kinda like filled with air 13:54:05 :) 13:54:28 well, hopefully i won't collapse 14:13:10 What's this mumble-mumble-ing about OBLISK? Is that negative mumble-mumble-ing? Are you one of the hordes of nonbelievers? You know, while GNU/Linux distros vary, it's not by anywhere near as much as most people seem to imagine. 14:13:43 hey 14:13:49 hmmm seems like a good idea 14:14:41 There are soooooooooooo many people with such negative opinions of it X-D 14:15:00 I used to make a FreeCiv OBLISK package but they absolutely refused to ever post it (without even testing it, mind you) 14:15:00 although you probably should write some boring documentation ;) 14:15:31 Yeah, I guess somebody else might want to make an OBLISK package at some point in the future :-P 14:39:02 -!- kipple has left (?). 14:42:51 hm 14:43:50 5h!7. this day sucks 14:44:08 this is so frustrating 14:44:20 -!- kipple has joined. 14:44:33 rgh. i'll go 14:44:38 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 15:15:20 -!- lindi- has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:24 -!- lindi- has joined. 16:31:40 GregorR: well, distros are the solution to library hell (currently actually known as DLL hell because it's an issue mainly with shared Windows libraries) - "generic" packages make sense only if all of the libraries (including libc) are contained in the package. 16:40:31 And the assumption is of course that I didn't realize this and compensate. 16:41:07 Libraries are NOT contained in the package, but are checked for on first run and downloaded if necessary. They are then installed into the package, so as to not clutter the rest of the system. 16:41:39 I didn't say you didn't 16:41:48 I just mumbled :) 16:41:52 Heheh 16:42:52 at the time I saw it I couldn't ask 18:52:54 -!- KnX has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:08:03 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:19:26 -!- KnX has joined. 19:43:42 -!- KnXxl has joined. 19:59:56 -!- KnX has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:46 -!- andreou has joined. 22:00:59 -!- andreou has quit ("i be not."). 2005-05-21: 00:31:33 -!- wooby has joined. 00:58:31 -!- wooby has quit ("[BX] Were you born a fat, slimy, scumbag, puke, piece of shit or did you have to work on it?"). 02:21:04 -!- terranwannabe has joined. 02:21:24 -!- terranwannabe has quit (Client Quit). 04:20:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:29:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:50:37 -!- KnX has joined. 05:55:57 -!- KnXxl has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:56 -!- puzzlet has quit ("rebooting"). 09:18:46 -!- CXI has joined. 09:19:35 hey 09:19:50 hi 09:21:59 funny story, actually - I edit wikipedia and I saw an entry on 2L, and went googling to see whether it actually existed or was just someone's project 09:22:25 what's the difference? 09:23:10 well, generally if it has any presence outside wikipedia it's a real topic 09:23:32 but that really depends on the people in question and what they consider a presence 09:23:53 yeah 09:24:25 I find it hard to decide sometimes... 2L looked kind of interesting so I figured it'd be better to leave it there 09:24:48 well, we've discussed about the presence of esoteric languages in there 09:24:54 (in wikipedia) 09:25:31 there are so many languages that can be described as "bf with huffman encoding, bf with a lookup table, bf with a lookup table and amusing names, bf with forking, bf with socket support, bf with a second buffer" 09:26:10 we're all for maintaining them but mainly because that's a way that they don't get lost in time; we agree that that's not the correct place 09:26:23 yeah, it's a tough choice 09:26:56 the author of the 2L language is GregorR, but I think he's asleep right now 09:27:12 yeah, I actually joined here because I read about it 09:27:19 as for web presence: http://eso.codu.org/ 09:27:19 the log, I mean 09:27:23 oh, I see 09:28:52 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/fibonacci.ork <--- haha, I like that 09:29:05 yes, ORK is an amazing language 09:30:00 after properly examined, 2L does not contribute so much as ORK to the esoteric languages world 09:30:32 it's a 2D language and there are 2D languages; it's a BF variation and there are lots of BF variations 09:30:32 and funnily enough there's no wikipedia article on ork 09:30:49 I know, it's more recent and it's not finished 09:30:49 PATH/SNUSP etc 09:31:01 PATH/SNUSP? 09:31:12 the canonical 2d BFs 09:31:20 oh, yeah 09:32:00 furthermore, it attempts to be extremely minimalistic and there are more extremely minimalistic ones 09:32:12 didn't know SNUSP, btw 09:33:30 well, we're making some efforts towards finding a place where esolangs can be preserved 09:34:50 not sure if it's any help, but wikimedia has a project called wikicities 09:35:17 I think it's at the very least very good news :) 09:35:58 I'll visit wikicities to see if that fits our purpose 09:37:03 could you please give a link? I'm not familiarized with how wikimedia is structured 09:37:22 oops, google helped 09:37:24 sorry 09:38:10 sorry - was off eating pretzels 09:38:17 np 09:38:33 a dangerous activity 09:38:39 hehe 09:38:40 only for presidents 09:40:50 could you give a very quick primer about the policies of wikicities, before I read everything thoroughly? is the content to be FDL-licensed? 09:41:29 yeah 09:41:52 basically it just says "it needs to be free and open - free license, freely editable, run as a community project" 09:42:36 about everything related to esolangs fits that 09:42:38 sounds perfect 09:42:59 it would be so awesome to gather everything in one place 09:43:40 hm, in a quick glance I see it's ad-supported 09:46:08 *nod* google ads 09:46:21 "Wikicities will never host pop-up adverts." - sounds reasonable 10:48:54 -!- CXI has changed nick to CXI-gonJinn. 10:51:09 -!- CXI-gonJinn has changed nick to CXI. 10:56:12 (also means you can copy/paste all wikipedia's information on esolangs) 10:58:37 what about files? is it possible to host files? 10:58:51 yeah 11:04:55 "Wikis must have a large potential audience, and be likely to attract enough editors to maintain the wiki over a long period of time. Personal wikis, wikis for small groups, or individual schools are not generally permitted." 11:05:34 all that's trying to do is discourage wikis for small clubs 11:05:43 I'm not sure we'll gather enough editors... the esolang community is not very wide 11:06:23 I'm sure when they see it they'll say "fantastic! somewhere for all the esolang stuff on wikipedia to go!" 11:07:50 yeah, but maintaining it is another issue 11:08:39 *shrug* well they'll either say yes or no - my guess is yes 12:15:08 -!- kipple has joined. 12:20:48 hmm. this wikicity concept looks promising 13:41:55 it's strange, actually, it's never really had any exposure 13:43:03 I suppose they're assuming it will just gain popularity through word of mouth 13:43:26 possibly. Who's behind it? is it associated with wikipedia? 13:43:33 yeah 13:43:38 basicaly it's just a wikimedia project 13:44:06 (except because wikimedia is non-profit and this is an ad-supported service they rolled out another essentially identical company for it) 13:45:17 the question is: what happens if it doesn't pay off? does it get closed down... 13:46:14 well, depends what you mean by "pay off", considering it's probably a thousandth the size of english wikipedia, keeping it running is trivial 13:46:46 yeah. and if it grows, it will pay off, hopefullly... 13:46:52 *nod* exactly 13:47:05 mainly I don't even really think paying off is what it's about 13:47:11 one of the big issues in wikipedia is scope 13:47:52 there are sort-of factions, one extreme is that wikipedia isn't a paper encyclopedia, and consequently we may as well try to gather *all* information 13:48:41 and the other extreme says that wikipedia shouldn't accept articles from any topics that aren't considered 'encyclopedic' 13:48:48 s/from/on/, sorry 13:49:02 so, like, no articles on schools, or towns 13:49:32 in reality most people lie somewhere in between, but it's a tough call because most of us hate throwing away information if it looks like it might be useful 13:49:47 yeah. 13:50:26 there have been some problems with people deleting esoteric programming articles already 13:52:03 well, 'problem' depends on your perspective 13:52:11 true 13:52:18 I actually think a lot of the esolangs don't belong there 13:52:46 I think I mentioned somewhere above that there are about 10 of them that are just "BF + neat feature" or "BF - neat feature" and don't actually exist at all except for their wikipedia entry 13:52:48 I partially agree 13:53:38 but that's the encyclopedia me talking 13:53:59 the "all information is sacred" me wants to put all those useless languages somewhere just in case someone is interested someday 13:54:12 someone is today 13:54:14 but not many 13:56:42 I'm all for starting a wikicity. 13:58:03 however, then we could get the problem that some people use the wikipedia, and some use the city 13:58:37 I'm actually for giving the alternatives in the list and see what's the general opinion 13:59:00 you mean the mailing list? 13:59:03 well, in reality anything written in the wikipedia can just be copy/pasted over 13:59:05 and vice versa 13:59:17 yeah, but that takes a lot of work 13:59:21 I'm not concerned about the wikipedia vs city; once the city is up, the languages don't need to be in the wikipedia 13:59:39 the most important ones should, IMHO 13:59:47 but you're right, it'd be tough drawing a line and saying "if your language is this popular put it in wikipedia, otherwise the city" 14:00:14 I'd say if the language is yours, then put it in the city 14:00:31 actually, yeah, that sounds like a good rule 14:00:32 if it is BF, INTERCAL or BeFunge then it can stay 14:00:34 there are a few that are universally accepted, like brainfuck and intercal 14:00:37 heh 14:00:56 maybe whitespace 14:01:02 yeah, BeFunge too 14:01:19 hm, whitespace is more like a humorous language 14:01:32 Unlambda suits there better 14:01:34 yes, but it is one of the more known 14:01:40 whitespace is pretty well known 14:01:48 because of the slashdot thing 14:01:57 yeah 14:02:02 a lot of the articles on popular languages aren't really under contention 14:02:11 it's just things like 2L that are worrying 14:02:20 when someone posts their new idea for a language on wikipedia 14:03:03 I've done that..... 14:03:16 and I agree, it's not the best solution 14:06:24 but the way it is now, I think it is the right way to do it. It's not like 2L is less interesting than most of the other esolangs in wikipedia 14:06:41 well, the problem is that it's less notable 14:06:58 I disagree 14:07:07 wikipedia isn't really the place to put new ideas, it's a repository for things that already exist 14:07:29 (which is to say, that's the viewpoint of most of the other editors, and that's why a new esolang article is likely to be deleted) 14:07:39 so, how long does it have to have existed before it can be put there? 14:08:16 it's not really a time thing - notability's a pretty ephemeral concept 14:08:50 well, to me it's a question of whether people which see the language/article somewhere else are able to find a reference in the wikipedia 14:09:24 a general guideline is that people shouldn't write articles about their own projects 14:10:39 I didn't know about the popularity of Whitespace; before I knew, I thought that it wasn't worth the inclusion 14:10:52 but if many people expect to find it, that's a change 14:11:17 that's my point of view, of course 14:12:27 Whitespace became quite known last year, so it's kind of a piece of internet history 14:13:12 well, that's what makes the difference somehow 14:13:56 The main esolang article lists the following as "notable": Befunge, Brainfuck, False, INTERCAL, Malbolge, Shakespeare, Unlambda and Whitespace 14:14:21 not sure about false and shakespeare, but the rest I agree with 14:15:27 I agree with you; I don't know about False and Shakespeare either 14:15:50 I'd perhaps include Thue because of its innovative paradigm but that's probably me 14:16:02 I've heard of both but can't actually remember what False does 14:17:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_programming_language 14:17:43 probably the most notable thing about it is that it inspired some others (it's from 1993) 14:19:07 Var'aq is probably also worth keeping in the pedia 14:20:54 yes, probably 14:21:19 off to lunch, bbl 14:21:19 though it doesn't really fit in with the rest... 17:50:34 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:50:48 -!- comet_11 has joined. 18:51:02 Hmm 18:51:09 Apparently I missed a very interesting conversation. 18:51:57 hi GregorR 18:52:27 So. 18:52:34 *cough* 20:25:55 -!- calamari has joined. 21:32:16 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:32:52 hhm 21:33:07 Is that a new esoteric programming language? 21:33:13 no 21:33:18 wait, i was just about to write :) 21:33:18 :P 21:33:56 hi Keymaker 21:34:03 languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda 21:34:05 hi 21:34:15 but i prefer it they all stay there 21:34:24 oh, and naturally kipple as well :) 21:35:50 I agree with all you mention (I miss Intercal) 21:36:15 What program should I OBLISK-ize for the proletization of OBLISK today :P 21:39:15 aaaargh 21:39:42 some global notice tells that there's going to be a major downtime in about 11 hours 21:39:50 yep 21:40:16 a previous wallop told that it's going to be about 15 mins long 21:40:16 Mmhmm 21:40:54 * Keymaker goes to break in the nearest store, takes all the food that can carry, goes to bomb shelter, puts on the gas mask. 21:41:18 * GregorR cries himself to sleep. 21:41:23 :D 21:42:14 i have a feeling that most of people won't even notice the major downtime.. ;) 21:42:46 I'll be committing ritualistic suicide. 21:42:53 :) 21:42:58 Then reviving myself by magic. 21:43:08 i see 21:43:23 hehe 21:44:04 test: 21:44:10 what is this '' character? 21:44:22 like an o with a / 21:44:28 Zero-with-a-line-through-it-like-I-draw-it? 21:44:34 yes.. 21:44:42 but what it is? 21:44:58 Not quite Phi... 21:45:17 isn't it a norwegian character? 21:45:25 hmm 21:45:27 looks so 21:45:29 iirc 21:45:38 kippleee? 21:45:44 :) 21:45:51 it was from false manual 21:46:29 for once a detailed esoteric language manual.. 21:46:37 (still too lazy to try it) 21:48:48 Mayhaps their should be an ORK page on Wikipedia. 21:48:51 But I'm not writing it :P 21:48:58 :) 21:49:13 i don't understand it so i can't do it :p 21:49:19 XD 21:52:57 hum, the false doc is a txt file, the encoding might be CP-437 instead of ISO-8859 21:54:03 oh, being for Amiga I think it's ISO 22:05:54 hm 22:06:14 i'm trying to invent some esolang. again. 22:10:26 pgimeno: I'm more than happy to permanently host http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ 22:11:37 kidsquid.com is my domain, so even if I change shell providers (unlikely), the name can be permanent. If you'd like a different name than esowiki, I can easily change it 22:12:43 was there a different reason that you were looking into wikicities? 22:33:32 calamari, I'm going to make a list of the options in the list with the pros and cons 22:35:30 yours is one, Wikicities is another and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page is another 22:36:03 (the latter was apparently mentioned in the list before I joined it) 22:36:55 and I'd also include for consideration a non-wiki web (a wiki needs a maintainer which at the very least can deal with vandalism) 22:37:33 are you subscribed to the mailing list? 22:37:46 I'm subscribed to lang and misc 22:37:54 and friends-of-bf 22:38:24 lang is the one I'm subscribed to 22:38:48 pgimeno: wiki vandalism is easy to control because any change can be reverted 22:39:02 I need to use the phone.. bbl 22:39:18 and I need to have dinner 22:39:20 later 22:39:23 bye 22:39:35 and i need to go to sleep, i'm tired already 22:39:55 bbll (be back lot later) 22:40:06 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:45:21 -!- calamari_ has joined. 22:46:41 re's 22:47:26 even better than my site would be esoteric.sange.fi, if he's willing 22:47:48 he's already been running the bf repository for years 22:57:18 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:04:35 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 2005-05-22: 00:38:49 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:39:17 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:50:12 calamari: there is a problem with a site that is hosted by one person (like yourself) 00:50:37 if you get run over by a bus, or stops updating for some reason, the site is lost 00:51:06 that's where wikipedia and wikicities are (hopefully) more safe 00:51:56 wikipedia is bad, because we're breaking the rules there (no original research) 00:52:10 yes. hence wikicities may be a good alternative 00:53:41 unless advertising runs out, then *poof* it's gone :) 00:53:44 yes 00:53:48 nothing is 100% 00:54:09 but it doesn't look like those independent wiki's manage to get much content 00:55:14 I mostly offered because it seemed like there was a lot of talk but no actiob 00:55:27 yes. and it is a good offer 00:56:26 we should go with what most people prefer (if we can get people to say that) 00:56:58 what about esoeric.sange.fi? That'd get my vote.. I wish I could remember the guys name 00:57:10 he's been running the bf archive for ages 00:57:35 and it's his own machine.. so it's not likely to be taken down 00:57:57 Unless Esoteric programming is deemed illegal and army troopers storm his home and destroy it. 00:58:03 same as with yours: dependent on one person 00:58:14 I'd trust him over wikicities, to be honest 00:58:19 maybe 00:58:27 I've never even heard of wikicities before 00:58:30 It's even older than wikipedia, yes? 00:58:37 maybe we could come up with a mirroring system of our own wiki 00:59:09 mirroring sounds good.. there has to be a way,.. there are hundreds of wikipedia ripoff sites out there 00:59:49 probably some Java program that crawls the wiki and grabs the sources 01:00:00 if we could have two or three mirrors of the same wiki we should be safe 01:01:00 ideally, they should be synchronized so that you could update in any one, at it would get propagated... not sure if such software exist 01:01:31 I think the best we could hope for are daily or maybe hourly automated updates 01:01:40 Subversion + cron job 01:02:14 as for the discussion earlier about the character, yes it is norwegian/danish. 01:02:15 I think if everyone used the same software setup, it could be a fairly simple job of archiving a directory and sending it out 01:02:32 it is a vowel pronounced as in duh or burn 01:02:33 no Java crawling required :) 01:02:33 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:02:43 * GregorR considers writing something. 01:03:22 kipple: I think the mirroring idea is the best yet 01:03:23 What wiki software is it based on? 01:03:39 GregorR: MoinMoin seems like a winner, to me 01:03:41 There's no reason who an edit couldn't prompt a cascade with the proper modifications. 01:03:42 I would prefer the one wikipedia uses 01:03:58 What formats to they store in? 01:04:03 no idea 01:04:13 MoinMoin doesn't require a database.. which is nice 01:04:14 Flat file would be handy. 01:04:30 * GregorR begins leaning toward MoinMoin ;) 01:04:54 If there was just an ssh server on the required boxes, files could be scp'd in on edit. 01:05:03 Updates would cascade instantly. 01:05:07 I dislike the wikis that can't have spaces in the links. but maybe that's just me 01:05:38 Does MoinMoin allow HTML? 01:06:46 I'm going to make some modifications to MoinMoin and see what I come up with. 01:07:54 * GregorR balks. 01:07:57 MoinMoin is Python. 01:08:02 Gregor doesn't do Python. 01:08:42 I do Python 01:08:52 you can use spaces, actually 01:09:04 you just use quotation marks 01:09:37 ah. that's nice. 01:09:45 well, you're right.. the link dont have spaces, but the user doesn't know 01:10:20 I personally like "Wiki!" 01:10:25 It's very simple. 01:10:52 if MoinMoin is just flat files, it should be easy to sync, I think 01:11:01 GregorR: I tried one of those simple ones and it performed very badly.. php wiki or something.. remember that one? 01:11:20 Wiki! is flat-file, simple, nice in my opinion. 01:11:24 http://wiki.sf.net/ 01:11:28 Not a very good home page :P 01:11:37 GregorR: link to a Wiki! wiki ? 01:11:45 http://www.codu.org/odikeh/ 01:11:52 It's very non-intrusive, there's a list of links at the bottom. 01:12:18 That one requires logins, actually. 01:12:23 That example that is. 01:12:26 eeew! 01:12:28 But it can be set either way. 01:13:00 not crazy about that look.. sorry 01:13:06 me neither 01:14:16 One could apply their own template. 01:14:36 kipple: just looked because I was curious about MoinMoin.. it stores the pages in a directory tree 01:14:37 By modifying the code to their liking. 01:15:02 so it'd be a simple tar and send operation 01:15:57 isn't thats what rsync is for? 01:16:03 It wouldn't be good to tar the enti---I was about to say that X-D 01:16:06 kipple wins :P 01:16:36 never heard of it :) checks man rsync 01:18:19 the problem is if the two wikis are both updated differently. Then you would lose the changes in one when you sync. Is there an easy way to fix that? 01:18:52 one solution is, of course to just have one that can be edited, and use the rest as pure backups 01:20:28 stupid question time.. how does rysn connect without a password? 01:20:34 rsync rather 01:21:28 If the "I'm-being-edited" cookie was stored in a file. 01:21:33 calamari_: SSH keys 01:21:38 calamari_: Rsync can go via SSH 01:22:07 aha.. (looking at man pages) 01:22:25 Oh, "Wiki!" is even more templatable than I thought. 01:22:26 there is rsync -u .. update only.. do not overwirte newer files 01:22:41 It has a template.html page that has $title, $node and $bar. Just put those in and it works with any template. 01:22:47 but that would leave the two different 01:23:04 kipple: if it were one-way yes 01:23:17 hrm actually, that'll never work.. clocks are always different 01:26:10 kipple: what if when on a mirror they click edit, it actually redirects to the "main" site and edits there instead? 01:26:22 yes 01:26:36 but then, why not redirect to the main site the moment you enter the mirror 01:26:48 because if the main site goes down you lose the content 01:27:04 this way, you'd just lose the ability to edit 01:27:05 calamari_: I like your idea - edit redirecting that is. 01:27:09 not if it is mirrored every hours or so 01:27:17 We need to update instantly. 01:28:12 how about htis: if you edit a mirror, it is also submitted immediately to the main site 01:28:24 Locking was the problem. 01:28:31 Wasn't it? 01:28:37 was it? 01:28:43 I guess not X-D 01:29:11 OK, so, remote sites have cron jobs to download every hour, and when a page is edited it is always uploaded to the main site, yes? 01:29:27 I think that could work 01:29:51 but there are of course some locking issues 01:29:59 Most wikis don't lock anyway *shrugs* 01:30:23 If we saved a revision history, things could be restored. 01:30:27 (On request) 01:31:00 gotta grab some food. brb 01:35:32 OK, here's my thoughts ... 01:35:48 The main wiki has a list of subwikis, 01:35:54 The subwikis know what the main wiki is... 01:35:59 So the subwikis all have a cron job, 01:36:20 Plus a setuid-whoever program that sends a file UP to the main wiki. 01:36:30 The Wiki software just acts like normal, 01:36:41 But upon an edit, calls that setuid-whoever program. 01:37:08 Of course, everybody would have to know the main wiki's SSH public key 01:37:32 Vice-versa rather ... 01:37:39 not a problem.. we could have an information wiki page on how to add a new node to the wiki 01:37:39 The main wiki would have to know everybody's public keys. 01:37:45 oic 01:37:56 Even that could be automated, really. 01:38:06 But seems unsafe. 01:38:12 I guess since it's a wiki, it's irrelevant. 01:38:17 hehe 01:38:48 Anybody mind giving me an account somewhere so I can set something up as a test? 01:39:12 my web server is nor functional currently :( 01:39:29 Is that a problem? X-D 01:39:37 GregorR: I'm using a shell provider.. sorry 01:39:45 I could set you up on my local box 01:39:45 if you want an account it is.... 01:39:45 Oh, btw, I have another retort on Python: While most web servers support PHP, most do not support Python ;) 01:40:06 I just need an ssh account somewhere. 01:40:06 good point 01:40:16 I don't even really need web access. 01:40:24 I just don't have a spare box lying around. 01:40:57 * GregorR remembers his laptop. 01:41:01 OK, me-su stupid. 01:42:00 GregorR: that's good, because my connection cuts out every 4 hours :) 01:44:51 bbl 01:45:02 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 01:57:55 hi 01:58:15 just read the backlog 01:59:22 so, what's your take on this wiki business? 01:59:28 I personally like the MoinMoin idea 01:59:52 * GregorR sits in his corner, alone as the only supporter of "Wiki!" 02:00:09 :) 02:02:35 I don't like the idea of sending an edit to another server 02:02:53 I prefer a main server and non-editable mirrors 02:03:06 yeah, I think I do as well 02:03:15 If that's agreed, then I'm done X-D 02:03:23 An rsync every hour and that's it. 02:03:30 yep 02:03:34 perhaps not that often 02:03:37 that makes perfect sense 02:03:44 Anyway, I've got to go eat home-made chicken soup. It's a terrible life. Bye 8-D 02:03:51 once or twice a day would be enough 02:03:58 later, GregorR 02:04:08 that could be left to each mirrorer to decide 02:04:14 bon apetit, greg 02:04:37 I'd say once a day is more than enough 02:05:03 the mirror should be able to be switched to a main server, just for the case the main one fails 02:06:51 a notification in the ML may be enough for the mirrors to start mirroring another server 02:07:14 that could be done manually. it's not something that should happen often 02:07:31 ML = mailing list 02:07:37 i.e. manually :) 02:07:38 ah, yes 02:11:09 the list has been pretty dead recently though 02:11:29 lack of traffic does not imply lack of people (I hope) 02:11:54 the IRC was apparently also quite dead until GregorR and I joined 02:12:18 possibly. I pretty new here myself 02:13:14 that's the impression I got from Keymaker's words 02:13:58 well, it does look like the four of us do most of the talking here nowadays... 02:14:46 don't think that just because i don't talk much, that i'm not actively lurking :) 02:15:02 hehe. good to know 02:15:06 oh hi cpressey 02:15:10 hi 02:15:19 I wanted to ask you about two things 02:15:27 k 02:15:42 one is OOPS, any reference apart from the mention in your old page? Google didn't help 02:16:31 ? ... hmm. no. i think it was briefly sketched in a message to the (old) mailing list. but iirc it was not a fully formed idea 02:16:42 i don't remember whose idea it was, either 02:16:48 oh, ok, thanks 02:17:04 iirc the objective was an object-oriented tarpit... 02:17:11 the other is rube2; the wayback machine doesn't hold the archive and all I was able to get was a version for Atari ST 02:17:18 heh 02:17:39 rube is an idea of yours, right? 02:17:44 that's interesting... i still have it somewhere, i guess i didn't put it back on my site after i recovered it from that disk crash 02:18:06 the original RUBE was mine, yes.... RUBE II was john c's slight change + implementation 02:18:20 that was my impression, thanks 02:18:31 so are you going to put it back online? 02:18:31 (the original had a really _awful_ implementation... rube ii's code is much better) 02:18:40 i can see if i can dig it out, but it might take a while 02:18:49 thank you so much 02:18:53 np 02:18:59 i should also maybe put illgol back up :) 02:19:11 and thank you for initiating me in this esoteric world! :) 02:19:34 ha! 02:19:58 yes, to reach the next level, you must stay locked in a mailbox overnight while we all sing sea shanties at you. 02:20:27 hehe 02:20:31 then you get a nifty apron and... oh, no! i've already said too much! 02:20:34 :) 02:21:02 on the subject of wikis... 02:21:29 hm? 02:21:43 i pretty much agree that wikipedia shouldn't be playing host to each and every esolang. 02:21:53 but i don't know where to draw the line either. 02:22:10 as for having a "satellite"... i'm not convinced that a wiki is the best tool for the job... 02:22:19 there used to be something called the Esoteric Language Database 02:22:30 which was renamed to the Stupid Languages Database 02:22:38 which is (afaik) now gone 02:22:40 yes, but why not use a wiki for it? 02:22:44 encyclopedia of stipid languages? yes it's gone 02:22:50 stipid -> stupid 02:23:00 it is important that it is easy for several people to edit 02:23:01 well, why not use a "forge" for it, like luaforge or rubyforge? 02:23:13 the wiki aspect is useful, yes 02:23:15 don't know about that 02:23:21 but these are also (generally speaking) projects 02:23:33 code/document development 02:23:41 it would be sweet if there was a tool that combined both 02:23:49 in fact i think there is, but i forget what it's called 02:24:14 i mean, i don't really know 02:24:17 I was also considering Subversion; the problem is that the editor has to modify the HTML code directly, no quick-and-easy markup 02:24:27 i'm not sure if i'd use it, but i thought i'd toss the idea out there 02:24:39 yeah. 02:24:53 I don't know if that "forge" thing is similar to a version control system 02:25:22 plus, the problem (i guess) if you have publically changeable code, is that it's very easy to slip in exploits unnoticed 02:25:46 yeah, the "forge" software, whatever it is, is like sourceforge's site. i think it can use cvs or svn for version control 02:26:08 but it is more project-oriented than reference-oriented. 02:26:11 oh I understand 02:26:25 personally, it is the reference part I'm most interested in 02:28:43 I don't get what you mean by reference here 02:29:11 well, "looking things up" is what i meant by it :) 02:29:24 oh k 02:30:39 the idea is not like cooperative project development; it's more like hosting each personal project's description and files, pretty much like what cat's eye is currently hosting 02:31:57 as long as a wiki is able to host files, I think it's good enough 02:32:34 me too 02:33:16 fwiw, apparently this is what i was thinking of --> http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/ 02:35:44 at any rate, i'm not pushing the idea. any sort of resource would be great, obviously. 02:36:04 the main problem is long-term reliability :) 02:36:12 pretty interesting for community development, indeed 02:36:56 hm, so maybe the mirroring is an important feature... 02:37:26 yes, that's the whole point of mirroring 02:44:15 kipple: is rune.krokodille.com yours? 02:44:20 yes 02:44:36 but it's down 02:45:01 I see, thanks 02:47:51 your welcome. Why, btw? 02:49:06 I followed the link from the wikipedia and it failed, I just wanted to be sure it was your site to get an idea on how it would work again (about a week, you said a few days ago) 02:49:22 how -> when 02:49:24 ah well. not so sure now. 02:49:41 oh 02:49:53 the root partition seems to have lost some files. can't boot. 02:50:04 don't know how much else is lost 02:50:15 maybe I'll have time to look into it next week 02:50:35 I'm not a linux expert, so it may take some time 02:51:52 from a brief googling, it doesn't look like there is any ready-made solution for a synchronized multi-host wiki. there's some discussion of mirroring wiki content (one-way), but that's not nearly as useful... 02:53:08 oh, sorry kipple 02:53:46 cpressey: regular non-editable mirrors sound OK to me 02:54:06 yeah. the mirrors doesn't have to be editable 02:54:32 anyway, it's 4am here. Good night :) 02:54:41 nite kipple 02:56:54 gnight kipple 02:57:23 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 02:58:01 the thing is, if the person running the editable wiki decides to stop (for whatever reason)... well, as long as there's a way to choose which of the mirrors gets to be the "next" editable one, i suppose that works 02:58:20 and all the other mirrors update to mirror from it 02:58:32 that was the idea 02:58:38 that's cool. 02:59:45 anyway, i have to eat now :) ttyl (and i'll try to get rube ii up this evening) 03:00:36 bon appetit and thank you very much 03:01:03 I'm going to sleep as well (I'm on the same time zone as kipple) 03:11:32 LADEEDADA 8-D 03:48:38 ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/ 03:56:42 lol, Rube = awesome 03:58:30 * GregorR goes to play "The Incredible Machine" :P 03:58:37 thx :) 03:58:50 * cpressey should probably work in curses support.... someday...... 04:33:56 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 04:39:10 hmm 04:39:51 moin moin's a bit icky to work with - one of my uni courses uses it for notes 04:48:37 incidentally, see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job) 05:26:25 Using wget would cause a massive redownload every backup, no? 05:31:06 not terribly massive - just the curr table 05:31:16 (as in, current versions of every page, not the whole history) 05:31:32 but it's not incremental, if that's what you mean 05:32:56 though a diff-based update would be kinda nice 05:33:24 Hence rsync 05:33:55 But lemme take a look at that page. 05:34:48 I've got it all set up for "Wiki!" 05:34:52 But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P 07:43:33 Here we go :) 07:43:55 Gregor's customized version of "Wiki!" supports guest posting and file uploads, and titles with spaces in them (which was supported anyway) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:42 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:03:53 -!- lindi- has joined. 08:06:38 Hmm 08:06:42 Where's the big explosion? 08:08:55 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:10:42 -!- lament has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:10:42 -!- GregorR has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:11:14 -!- lament has joined. 08:11:29 -!- mickoko has joined. 08:11:37 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:11:55 -!- mickoko has left (?). 10:21:57 -!- clog has joined. 10:21:57 -!- clog has joined. 10:24:11 -!- mtve has joined. 11:32:41 -!- KnX has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:59:21 -!- stefan60 has joined. 12:00:54 -!- stefan60 has left (?). 12:57:26 hi 12:57:55 But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P 13:00:46 GregorR: from my point of view, the question is not to like or not to like; just MoinMoin is already set up and running in calamari's server, and if there's a compelling reason to make the effort of changing I'm for it 13:01:22 ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/ 13:01:52 thank you very much, cpressey! 13:02:16 rube is sooooo coooool :) 13:09:41 you know, I thought that the name came instead from Sierra's Space Quest II adventure where there's a toy called Cubix Rube 13:42:32 -!- kipple has joined. 14:01:55 hm, this rube2 thing is much harder to get working than rube 15:19:07 does MoinMoin only save the last two revisions? When I click show changes in the EsoWiki, only the last two are available... 15:43:26 -!- comet_11 has joined. 15:47:57 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:48:41 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 16:17:53 -!- CXI has changed nick to Pope_CXI. 16:19:55 -!- Pope_CXI has changed nick to CXI. 16:35:08 kipple: click on "Get Info" 16:35:54 ah. thanks 18:54:41 So, how much information are we supposed to put on the Wiki? I suppose the full spec and everything, so that if eso.codu.org (as an example) fell out of existance, it would be there? 19:09:11 Hmm ... how do you make MoinMoin show 2L code without trying to be all wiki-i with it... 19:13:28 don't know. I assume it has some tags for such things 19:15:49 have you tried {{{ }}} ? 19:16:27 I figured that out after a bit. 19:16:29 That worked. 21:19:03 -!- andreou has joined. 21:19:51 -!- andreou has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/. 21:38:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:38:45 * GregorR-L eats babies. 21:39:01 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 21:41:34 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:53:23 -!- ngtr has joined. 21:57:11 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:57:26 Why is my alter ego joining magically? :P 22:18:15 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:20:21 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:20:47 creepy... :) 22:20:48 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:21:53 That's pretty strange. 22:22:22 do you have another machine that's logged in? 22:22:44 Yeah 22:22:48 And off ... and in ... 23:03:50 -!- ngtr has changed nick to andreou. 23:29:04 -!- kipple_ has joined. 23:29:04 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:42:06 -!- andreou has quit ("~"). 2005-05-23: 03:01:06 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:09:38 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:10:01 So. 03:10:08 Gregor is bored. 04:53:29 -!- Keymaker has joined. 04:54:02 wooooaaaah 04:54:24 really nice andreou! 04:54:36 i gotta try that language soon 04:54:40 as soon as i have time 04:54:48 really neat stuff 04:58:48 must go. 04:58:51 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 07:04:08 -!- andreou has joined. 07:37:57 -!- andreou has quit ("~"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:32:46 -!- andreou has joined. 10:35:11 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:37:02 -!- andreou has quit (Client Quit). 11:47:47 -!- CXI has joined. 12:09:05 -!- kipple has joined. 16:07:40 -!- arke has joined. 16:13:22 -!- arke has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)"). 16:16:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:05:14 -!- andreou has joined. 17:40:45 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:03:37 -!- andreou has quit ("i be novel."). 18:16:32 -!- puzzlet has quit. 18:27:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:47:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:51:34 -!- puzzlet has quit. 20:32:28 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:33:39 Wooh 20:33:43 CFDG 20:33:44 Coolio 20:33:55 Not turing complete I assume, since it's not exactly ... well ... that. 20:35:21 Wow 20:35:24 That's incredibly cool 20:36:20 CFDG? 20:36:30 how much would it take to make it turing complete, I wonder... :) 20:36:40 see topic 20:36:41 oh, the topic 20:36:42 yeah 20:36:45 sorry :) 20:36:57 Well, it would have to have a concept of numbers :p 20:37:02 Maybe some sort of colision ... 20:37:22 hm 20:37:34 that's what a fractal language could look like 20:39:00 GregorR-L: I'm writing the message for the ML about the servers; could you please repeat what are your changes to Wiki!? 20:39:59 I got confused by what did you change and what was already supported 20:40:15 so, what are the alternatives you have so far? 20:40:16 I just secured the logins a bit more and added an uploads dialog. 20:40:32 *a bit more secure 20:40:42 ok, thanks 20:41:27 But since even I've started posting stuff to the MoinMoin wiki, it's pretty irrelevent :P 20:41:59 hm, so do I delete that part from consideration? 20:42:05 Might as well 20:42:44 which means...? 20:42:53 Yes, delete. 20:43:02 are you sure? 20:43:14 maybe the final decision involves a different approach 20:43:19 Unless anybody can see any advantages to it over MoinMoin. 20:43:27 does the MoinMoin wiki support file uploads? (like binaries, archives and pdfs) 20:43:30 kipple: the alternatives are static content and wiki; within wiki, the three ones already running, namely Wikicities, calamari's and the voxelwhatever 20:43:42 apparently it does 20:43:59 If it doesn't, there's a big point for "Wiki!" :P 20:44:17 OH, that's right! 20:44:18 calamari's is MoinMoin; the voxelXXXX seems to be phpwiki 20:44:24 MoinMoin is python, and many servers don't support Python. 20:44:39 yeah, that's the big con against MoinMoin 20:44:39 So it would be more difficult to get true mirrors. 20:44:50 WikiMedia is my personal preference 20:44:55 It's PHP, yes? 20:45:03 Wikicities is not a Wikimedia project 20:45:03 php+mysql 20:45:18 Flat files are nicer for cross-site distribution. 20:45:36 OK, toss "Wiki!" back in X-D 20:45:36 it's easy to distribute an sql-dump 20:46:03 It's the same issue as with MoinMoin though - the more basic it is the more mirrors are likely. 20:46:13 yes 20:46:27 from http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/What_Wikicities_is_not : "[Wikicities is not] a Wikimedia project" 20:46:42 Humm 20:46:52 Does it use the Wikimedia engine? 20:46:53 yeah, I didn't want to take it out 20:46:58 I think so, not sure 20:47:14 I meant: I prefer MediaWiki (not to be confused with WikiMedia) :) 20:47:23 in any case it looks a LOT like Wikipedia 20:47:35 Wikipedia and Wikicities both use MediaWiki 20:47:46 oh, you mean the software 20:47:49 yes 20:48:42 I have yet to see a wiki that looks as good as MediaWiki 20:48:48 I'm not very confident about a MySQL database either 20:48:59 yeah, the look is pretty good 20:49:06 (Wiki! is templatable through a template.html file, so it can look exactly like MediaWiki if you want) 20:49:15 ok 20:49:39 it's just the ones I've seen so far has looked very good 20:49:47 maybe voxelperfect's is a MediaWiki? 20:49:49 The big draw-back of Wiki! for the record is that it uses HTML, rather than a convenient Wikiscript. 20:49:50 has not, I mean! 20:50:11 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ (for reference) 20:50:13 hmmm. not good 20:50:29 oops, doesn't it use custom markup? 20:50:39 No, 'tis HTML. 20:50:46 Which I think is nice, but that is clearly just me. 20:51:04 does user's text go straight to the page? 20:51:18 Yup - though of course wiki links use [blah] 20:51:32 That's the only non-HTML-ism it has. 20:51:33 voxelperfect seems to be mediawiki 20:51:36 OH, plus it does
s 20:51:39 For you 20:52:06 oh, then it's not straight HTML, it looks similar to phpBB or even MediaWiki 20:52:31 Well, MediaWiki has convenient wikiisms, no? 20:52:33 I bet it won't allow certain tags and will impose restrictions on others 20:52:59 it has its own markup if that's what you ask 20:53:09 Yeah, that's what I meant :P 20:53:33 it may be more restricted but anyway I think it's OK 20:54:06 I personally prefer pure HTML to Wiki syntaxes, but like I said, I'm sure that's just me. 20:54:26 well, I think that asking for HTML tags for special contents is not asking too much in a community of people used to code in weird languages 20:54:54 LOL 20:54:55 Good point. 20:55:01 I didn't think about that X-D 20:55:15 agreed. but I think you'll get a more unified look if you don't use HTML 20:55:32 but maybe that's not important 20:55:46 actually, the style sheet should deal with things that structure the page like

,
 etc.
20:56:07  a good thing with HTML is that one can take a web page and paste it directly into the wiki
20:56:11  so that's no concern
20:56:47  there is a difference with what _should_ happen, and what will happen... 
20:56:48  I actually doubt it allows straight HTML; it will probably be a restricted HTML like in blogspot or phpBB
20:57:01  probably true
20:57:05  (sorry if my fingers are a bit lagged)
20:57:14  not a big issue IMHO
20:57:49  Oh, "Wiki!"
20:57:53  No, straight HTML.
20:58:12  When I said "Simple," I meant "simple" ;)
20:58:19  oh
20:59:13  well, then anonymous posting shouldn't be allowed
20:59:19  indeed
20:59:26  lol
20:59:52  That's the only problem with it, so I'm putting it out there.
21:00:26  hm, maybe I can work in a parser or something... (I'm quite busy with the rest of my projects though)
21:01:11  could you please elaborate on the security-related changes?
21:01:23  security is a concern to me as well
21:01:56  It used to use a cookie that just had your username, so anybody who could set the cookie could get a user account.
21:02:00  Sort of stupid, really :P
21:02:14  Now it uses the username and a hashed password, and the password is double-hashed on the far end.
21:02:24  yuck, actually phpBB suffered that problem as well
21:02:34  neat
21:02:38  MD5?
21:02:45  (just curious)
21:03:08  Yeah
21:04:09  Still not as secure as it could be.
21:04:17  And you just got me thinking about how I could secure it more :P
21:04:18 -!- calamari has joined.
21:04:28  cool! hi calamari
21:04:40  hi pgimeno
21:05:06  how's the wiki planning?
21:05:18  I'm preparing the message to the ML
21:05:40  we're discussing about including Wiki! in the list
21:05:50  in the list of wiki possibilities, that is
21:05:56  if in doubt, include it
21:05:58  I hate its name so much I want to fork it and make my own X-D
21:06:03  we agree it should be
21:06:11  hehe
21:06:32  I can call it GWiki and imply that it's GNU because of my first name ...
21:06:42  I could call it KWiki and imply that it's for KDE because of my middle name ...
21:06:53  how about Giki
21:06:57  X-D
21:06:59  Geeki
21:07:01  That's brilliant 8-D
21:07:05  hehe
21:07:10  kipple gets genius points.
21:07:16  indeed
21:07:34  I'm submitting this baby to Sourceforge >:)
21:07:45  Hmm.
21:07:50  That would be project #5 I think ...
21:07:55  MoinMoin's main problem is Python
21:08:19  Many wikis are tied to a database, that's their problem.
21:08:20  yes. otherwise it looks fine
21:08:57  calamari: you said MoinMoin supports files, right?
21:09:05  (file uploads)
21:09:21  er, yeah
21:10:18  To submit, or not to submit, that is the question.  For is it nobler to have 5 under-supported projects or to ignore this desire and leave Giki behind?
21:10:48  has anybody seen a spec of CDFG?
21:11:35  Hmm, nope.
21:12:08  GregorR-L: what about leaving it apart by now and take it again after you're done with a few projects?
21:12:56  Open Source Software projects never qualify as "done" really :P
21:13:25  :D
21:13:35  I already abandoned one - PHPIM
21:13:46  PHPIM - RIP - It was curious, but totally worthless.
21:14:05  IM = instant messaging?
21:14:09  Yeah
21:14:21  %)
21:14:33  :P
21:14:50  the most esoteric thing I've done in PHP so far is an astrologic calculator
21:15:01  I think that's more esoteric than PHPIM ;)
21:15:34  yeah, esoteric is a word that fits it pretty well :)
21:16:08  Hmm, it's still up X-D
21:16:42  (I'm not a believer in astrology, it was just to prove an astrologer that astrology doesn't work as he expected)
21:16:51  Heheh
21:16:54  I was hoping so ;)
21:17:56  where's PHPIM?
21:18:05  http://phpim.sourceforge.net/
21:18:24  There's a "Check out PHPIM first-hand" link that still works there :P
21:19:07  pgimeno: I don't remember talking about file uploads.. must've been someone else
21:19:26  oh, sorry
21:19:39  I thought we decided against MoinMoin because it was python
21:19:50  Well, no better one has really cropped up ;)
21:20:01  if Moin! could be made to not look so dumb, I'd go for that
21:20:11  You mean "Wiki!" 
21:20:18  err yeah.. hehe
21:20:24  And it just has a template.html, so it's totally templatable.
21:20:30  It looks however you want it to.
21:20:32  the boxes around links is just silly hehe
21:20:39  That's just that one example ;)
21:20:45  try to make it look like wikipedia or moinmoin
21:20:58  they both have nice interfaces
21:21:24  Indeed.
21:23:01  calamari: so does moinmoin allow binary file uploading?
21:23:01  Hmm, Wikipedia foils Mozilla's save-page feature!
21:23:21  pgimeno: no idea.. let me see :)
21:23:39  thanks
21:28:30  http://gregorr.homelinux.org/wiki/ < starting to look MediaWiki-ish
21:29:35  it's good for a start
21:30:18  Well, I certainly am not saying that it's done ;)
21:30:25  I'm just showing you that it is indeed templatable.
21:30:51  yeah, that's what I mean (please be patient with me, remember that English is not my first language)
21:31:09  pgimeno: MoinMoin can do binary file uploading, but you must log in first
21:31:33  no problem with that; I think that anonymous posts should be disallowed
21:31:40  maybe
21:31:53  Agreed.
21:31:58  Uploading without login = bad.
21:32:15  it's easier to get people to add content if they don't have to register. but for uploading it should be required!
21:32:35  Yeah.
21:32:53 * GregorR-L wonders why the ! was necessary after that sentence ;)
21:33:32  because it is important!! ;)
21:33:42  8-D
21:34:04  english is not my first language either....
21:34:11  I'd be happy if we are enough registered editors as to maintain it; interested authors can see registration as a benefit in case they don't have a homepage
21:34:56  I'm worried about spammers and vandals
21:35:44  it should work as autonomously as possible without anyone's interaction
21:35:56  I don't know how much of a problem that is. On wikipedia it happens, but this wiki will be pretty obscure
21:36:14  here's how to do an upload.. kinda weird.. you put attachment:filename in the page, and then save the page, you'll then have a link to link which allows you to upload the file
21:36:17  I think that most wikis suffer from spam
21:36:26  ok
21:36:43  calamari: a link to link?
21:36:44  then we should probably not allow anonymous editing
21:37:12  pgimeno: a link.. dunno where "to a link" came from
21:37:14  Hmm, my Wiki! upload script forces the username before file name so you can't fake somebody elses files.
21:37:46  calamari: it's enough by now to know that it's supported, thanks
21:37:48  Not sure why I started that sentence with "Hmm, "
21:41:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
21:46:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:46:54  On further thought, there was no need for me to log out before walking downstairs.
21:48:21  OK, I am sooooo forking.
21:48:31  heh
21:49:16  Wiki! is so nice, but falls just short of its potential.  Only a few minor changes are needed for it to be a really excellent SIMPLE Wiki.
21:50:23  that's cool
21:50:39  off-topic, GregorR-L: how many domains do you use?
21:51:55  www.codu.org is my low-powered home page, gregorr.homelinux.org is my home computer that I'm not even allowed to host on, www.imdirect.net is DirectNet's home page and www.reclaimidentity.com is a school project.
21:52:12  Plus four *.sf.net subdomains.
21:52:13  and t35.com?
21:52:36  Oh, codu.t35.com was my old home page, but the host got all advertizy so I decided to get a for-pay one.
21:52:53  oh, I see
21:53:33  you're not allowed to host on your home computer? eek
21:54:12  Lame ISP :P
21:54:35  what kind of connection is that?
21:54:38  Cable
21:54:39  DSL?
21:54:42  ah
21:55:14  what speed? (just curious)
21:55:42  Hmm X-D
21:55:48  Something I should know off the top of my head ...
21:55:53  But I'm so rarely home anymore :P
21:56:02  :)
21:56:03  nm
22:08:01 -!- andreou has joined.
22:08:15  oh, the artist :)
22:08:19  hi andreou
22:08:33  hola
22:08:35  which artist?
22:09:31  the artist behind cfdg is you, right?
22:11:33  no, i am a mere medium.
22:11:38  oh
22:11:54  in that case thanks for the link, it looks very pretty :)
22:13:13  bbl
22:13:16 -!- calamari has left (?).
22:13:56  btw, is there someone here who is NOT in the 'lang' ML?
22:14:06  me
22:14:29  it's for discussing the esolang preservation project
22:15:10  the question is related to which of the three lists should the message be sent, as I'm just in 'lang'
22:15:32  three lists?
22:15:43  I'm in lang and FoBF
22:15:58  maybe I'm wrong and they are just two
22:16:21  I somehow understood that there were three
22:18:28  i thought you meant the lang 'ML', as in OcaML
22:18:33  i used to be
22:18:42  some of my addresses might still be
22:18:42  oh, sorry, I meant ML as in mailing list
22:19:34  you're welcome to participate if any of these addresses is :)
22:21:17  WOW! I haven't seen this before: http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
22:21:31  extremely cool
22:23:45  pgimeno what's the url for the list manager?
22:24:10  I don't know right now
22:24:47  very nice, kipple!
22:25:09  andreou: you mean for the lang list?
22:25:26  I think he does
22:25:34  yes
22:25:43  subscribe lang to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
22:26:16  lang, sci and misc, right?
22:26:54  don't know about sci and misc...
22:27:17  misc was the other one, yeah
22:27:40  but lang seems more appropriate
22:28:15  I didn't know about sci either; the third one I meant was Friends of Brainfuck
22:29:57  ah at ccc?
22:29:59  i remember that
22:32:10  i'm off
22:32:15 -!- andreou has quit ("~").
22:32:43  GregorR-L: around?
22:40:37  Hi
22:40:37  Am now
22:41:13  may I make changes to the wiki to get a feeling of how it works?
22:41:29  Yeah, that's a throw-away wiki.
22:41:44  do I need to be registered?
22:42:12  I don't think so, lemme check the config.
22:42:25  Nope.
22:42:51  [wiki links go in square brackets]
22:43:06  there we go
22:44:36  what's the "track revision" checkbox? I thought that all revisions would be tracked
22:46:11  It just changes whether the revision is displayed on the page.
22:46:11  They're all stored internally.
22:46:22  ah ok
22:47:30 * GregorR-L is still working on the unnecessarily-secure password setup.
22:50:41  it seems to track only the last three changes
22:53:12  hehe, it messes up the JS code
22:53:47  The page only shows the last three changes.
22:54:00  That's just a display thing, it has nothing to do with its actual history.
22:54:08  ok
22:58:18  there's a potential problem with the markup, namely the conversion of < to < and > to > which some authors may forget (even in Micro$oft's pages I've seen code forgetting them)
22:58:31  plus the usage of [] for code
22:58:56  the latter can be avoided in the PHP code by skipping 
 sections
22:59:54  the former will probably happen also in the other wikis
23:02:49  Not in wikis that disallow HTML.
23:02:58  The latter is simple to skip, no prob.
23:03:16  So long as I'm going in full-hog anyway :P
23:03:40  hehe
23:04:07  MediaWiki allows HTML; probably MoinMoin does as well
23:05:01  no big deal; just BF programmers will have to be careful when moving the data pointer around
23:07:59  Yay 8-D
23:08:05  New security measures are working.
23:08:16  There is now a session key.
23:08:20  cool!
23:08:31  :)
23:08:35  does it time out or something?
23:08:55  No, but I could make it do so when I think about it ...
23:09:01  Just stick a timestamp in there.
23:09:07  I had it disappear when you logged out.
23:09:25  a server-side timestamp, I suppose
23:09:30  Yeah, of course.
23:09:38  I always forget to log out :P
23:09:47  The local cookie times out, which forces a new key upon new login.
23:09:58  oh, by the way, I think this will be a simple find-and-replace change: could you please make 
add a \n at the end? 23:11:23 Oh, in display? 23:11:24 Sure. 23:12:05 the HTML code sticks everything in a single line, making browsing the source a bit awkward 23:12:31 OH, that's how it screws up javascript! 23:12:38 * GregorR-L 's eyes are opened. 23:18:23 well, the JS code suffers from
invasion 23:19:21 eek! 23:19:36 on edit it converted the < to < 23:20:09 Ooh, seriously? That's bizarre ... I wonder why it did that ...... 23:20:22 Hmmmmm, maybe something about textareas? 23:20:41 no idea but yes I'm serious 23:22:59 grr, there's a caveat with
\n: the
 sections are also broken by 
so if instead of
there's
\n then two line breaks will be inserted 23:24:02 the
 sections are also broken...  -->  within the 
 sections lines are also broken...
23:25:19  Lesse lesse lesse ...
23:32:29  There we go :)
23:32:35  Now it handles 
s beautifully :)
23:32:40  Let's get scripts working ...
23:32:49  neat
23:34:25  Now if only I could remember basic javascript ...
23:34:52  Document.out.println or something?
23:35:21  document.write is what you look for?
23:35:39  Ah, yes.
23:35:47  Hey, looksi there!
23:35:49  8-D
23:35:50  + "\n" if it has to end a line
23:35:58  Scripts work.
23:36:39  hum, maybe it's cached somewhere in between
23:36:51  do you mean it no longer inserts 
? 23:39:30 the message to the list will not be ready tonight, sorry :( 23:39:53 no problem. it's not that urgent... 23:43:37 my main concern is the Wikipedia contents, maybe CXI can clarify something about when an action would be carried out 23:43:51 what do you mean? 23:44:15 is it about to be deleted? 23:46:16 I'm not sure 23:47:09 I suppose that it will deleted at some point except for the most relevant languages, but I don't know how close is that point 23:47:55 apparently CXI joined here because of a need of dealing with that 23:52:56 I recall having seen somewhere in Wikipedia a proposal for deletion of... was it 74 entries? 23:53:51 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:55:01 but wasn't that a long time ago, and voted down? 23:55:09 or has it happened again? 23:56:51 no idea of the timing 23:57:14 nor the voting 23:57:51 I'm not very up-to-date, sorry :) 23:59:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 2005-05-24: 00:00:01 Hmm, got D/C'd 00:00:21 * kipple is backing up as much as possible before low-level formatting his server 00:02:05 pgimeno: If you're still up, give
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