00:14:04 <jix> kipple: i'm done!
00:15:24 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/DQn85Z68.html
00:17:11 <jix> it needs 4secs on my 1ghz ppc machine.. ^^
00:19:06 <jix> quite fast?
00:21:19 <kipple> 10 secs on my 187MHz machine :)
00:22:07 <jix> why does xchat-aqua need 50% cpu ?
00:23:01 <jix> ok now write a kipple compiler
00:23:27 <kipple> that would be great :)
00:23:44 <jix> kipple2c in kipple ?
00:23:56 <kipple> can I put prime.k on the Kipple homepage?
00:24:09 <jix> kipple: yes
00:24:33 <jix> Jannis Harder
00:27:45 <kipple> wow, the Kipple home page gets updated more and more frequently....
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00:37:50 <jix> kipple: an updated version: http://rafb.net/paste/results/by15VL64.html
00:38:30 <jix> the \n are at the right position
00:38:44 <jix> i'm not using the input stack as a temp stack
00:41:39 <kipple> it is currently the second largest kipple program in existence (that I know about)
00:58:18 <kipple> btw, there is NOTHING wrong with using the input stack as a temp stack!
01:00:02 <kipple> just be aware that it may contain data you have not put there..
01:05:26 <jix> good night
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01:51:06 <calamari> think I need directories, or will one be enough?
01:54:11 <kipple> that will quickly become crowded I think
01:57:43 <calamari> kipple: possibly, although there are only programs that the user creates
01:58:20 <calamari> I'll be getting rid of a few of those (who needs touch?) :)
02:00:23 <calamari> how about multiple processes.. needed?
02:03:31 <kipple> one editor and one command line would be nice, of course
02:05:45 <calamari> I haven't really considered having multiple windows.. interesting
02:06:37 <kipple> doesn't have to be windows. just two textareas you can switch between
02:06:43 <calamari> Maybe a row of 4 buttons could represent a taskbar of sorts :)
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02:57:01 -!- graue has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang Preservation project info: http://tinyurl.com/d3fk5 ~ Esolang wiki: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page.
02:57:40 <graue> i am inventing a weird language
02:58:15 <kipple> I've been thinking about the file storage issue, and have come to the conclusion that we should use both methods.
02:59:39 <graue> it's slightly Icon-inspired, and slightly AMD64 assembly-inspired, and then just weird in addition to that
02:59:57 <kipple> I agree that a file hierarchy is best for preservation of multiple files. but we should also have images and maybe some other files in the wiki
03:00:19 <graue> hmm, images of what? Piet programs? Whitespace with syntax highlighting?
03:00:24 <kipple> is 64 bit assembly notably different from regular?
03:00:33 <graue> it has a bunch of crazy 64- and 128-bit registers
03:00:58 <kipple> we should be open to languages that are not text based
03:02:10 <kipple> not too many of them currently, but they might come
03:02:56 <kipple> do you have a code example, btw?
03:05:13 <graue> check the wikipedia article for Whitespace
03:05:23 <graue> it has a syntax highlighting graphic that's marked as being public domain, so we can rip it off
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05:00:53 <GregorR-L> I made a SourceForge plugin for Giki :)
05:13:06 <graue> sourceforge has plugins?
05:14:08 <GregorR> It's better shown than exlained: http://giki.sourceforge.net/?title=Downloads
05:15:07 <GregorR> I could better word that like so: I made a GikiPlugin to render SourceForge content.
05:17:15 <graue> can you make it work with gforge and savane?
05:17:30 <GregorR> It could probably be slightly modified to work with any *forge.'
05:17:50 <graue> savane is also a sourceforge fork, you know
05:18:18 <GregorR> We're thinking different softwares X-D
05:18:36 <GregorR> I don't know what I was thinking, actually :P
05:18:42 <GregorR> Anyway, it could be modified to use them, sure.
05:20:37 <GregorR> The Savane page says SourceForge went proprietary ...
05:22:43 * GregorR downloads the SF software ...
05:22:51 * GregorR sees "GNU General Public License"
05:26:12 <graue> you didn't know SourceForge went proprietary?
05:26:22 <graue> only an old version is available under the GPL
05:27:51 * GregorR considers switching his projects to Gna.
05:31:36 <graue> they don't provide PHP, it seems
05:38:06 <GregorR-L> I suppose some of the code (contributed bits) must still be GPL, but since it's a web site and the GPL has no provisions for web-provided content, it's irrelevent.
05:40:36 <graue> sourceforge was developed by a company, they own it, and they are now trying to sell the "enterprise edition" of it to other companies for obscene amounts of money
05:40:57 <graue> sourceforge.net is an ad for their software
05:42:57 <graue> no company is going to buy sourceforge enterprise edition because of your site, so don't worry about it
05:45:16 <GregorR-L> Just released Giki 1.2, which most importantly has a separate download with a bunch of plugins :)
05:46:35 <graue> do you lock the flat files so two edits at the same time won't clobber a page?
05:46:53 <GregorR-L> No, but that could be implemented by a plugin :)
05:48:07 <graue> MediaWiki has an <input type="hidden" value="hash or something" /> in the edit form, and when you post, it checks that against the hash of the latest revision
05:48:11 <graue> if they don't match, it doesn't post it
05:48:16 <graue> you should do something like that
05:49:44 <GregorR-L> However, it does have a full history, so even if you do lose something, you don't lose anything *shrugs*
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10:27:38 <lament> actually it's really late night.
10:28:05 <pgimeno> who was that who invented time zones?
10:34:52 <pgimeno> I think that use of WikiMedia is already stablished, only doubt is about the files section
10:35:20 * GregorR-L whispers Giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
10:37:09 <GregorR-L> Giki got a positive review at some random guy's blog :)
10:37:32 <pgimeno> cool, you're becoming famous :)
10:38:13 <GregorR-L> Anyway, now I'm going to go be week and sleep.
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14:41:26 <kipple> graue: is svn operational in he files archive now? can I test it?
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18:18:55 <kipple> (my, what an interesting conversation here today ;)
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18:24:43 <pgimeno> graue: I'd like to see a final decision about files today
18:24:43 <pgimeno> svn is ok to me, the only point being that people have to email the files to upload to an editor
18:24:43 <kipple> I think we should go with both. i.e. that some files should be allowed in the wiki
18:24:58 <pgimeno> one thing after the other :)
18:25:14 <kipple> maybe we could write a nice web-interface that allows people to submit a file to an editor
18:26:36 <kipple> should that be in the wiki, or on a separate page?
18:26:57 <kipple> hmm. I guess we should avoid modifications to the wiki software
18:27:17 <pgimeno> I don't mind, but probably the wiki will not be able to cope with that by default, and yes, we should avoid modifications
18:27:45 <pgimeno> note that it's not important if that page is not preserved
18:28:13 <pgimeno> the page with the upload interface, I mean
18:28:27 <pgimeno> when (if) the site moves to a mirror, the setup will probably change
18:29:58 <pgimeno> so, the files section is good for keeping language distributions etc.
18:31:17 <pgimeno> the wiki images section would have a different purpose
18:31:40 <kipple> in mediawiki images and other files are treated as the same
18:32:13 <pgimeno> I know, but uploading e.g. zipped files to the wiki is not a good idea
18:32:32 <kipple> well, not if we have a separate archive
18:32:42 <kipple> then they should go there
18:34:25 <pgimeno> the question is: given the additional nuisance of backing up a separate directory just for images, does it pay off?
18:34:49 <kipple> well, I think we should have images in the Wiki!
18:35:17 <kipple> it could be zipped together with the db-dump
18:35:30 <kipple> or even better: located in the files archive
18:35:59 <pgimeno> I don't think that's possible
18:36:54 <pgimeno> and because it would be a pain to reconstruct
18:37:11 <kipple> well, the cronjob that does the database dump could simply include the images in the zip/tar
18:37:50 <kipple> since we will have most files in the svn it will probably not be very large
18:38:24 <pgimeno> there's a possibility to keep them in the svn archive, depending on how WikiMedia deals with images; if it can link the image to an URL which is external to the wiki, it could work
18:40:23 <pgimeno> this setup seems not so simple as it looked at first sight huh?
18:40:40 <kipple> huh? what's the problem?
18:41:16 <pgimeno> I mean the MediaWiki + svn etc.
18:42:02 <kipple> It's just two different things to backup. I don't see the problem.
18:42:30 <pgimeno> svn up + db backup + wiki images
18:42:39 <kipple> as I said: just include the images in the db backup
18:42:57 <kipple> anyway, one more zip to download is not a problem either IMHO
18:44:15 <kipple> actually you CAN use external images in the wiki.
18:44:36 <kipple> but I think it's not a good idead
18:45:27 <kipple> because then people will probably use images on OTHER servers, rather than bothering with contacting an editor
18:47:16 <pgimeno> I'm worried about having many potential causes of failure
18:47:43 <kipple> well, this is used in the wikipedia, and it seems to work fine
18:48:08 <kipple> images linked from everywhere is REALLY a pain to back up
18:48:58 <CXI> external images would be nasty
18:49:24 <pgimeno> I actually wanted them to only point to the files section with no other possibility
18:49:48 <pgimeno> maybe replacing the images directory of the wiki with a link to the files working dir could work
18:49:56 <pgimeno> (provided there's nothing else in there)
18:50:41 <kipple> but the images doesn't really belong together with the other files. They should be tied to articles
18:51:05 <pgimeno> I mean something like: files/wiki_images/*
18:51:32 <pgimeno> that's just the placeholder
18:51:36 <pgimeno> it's already separate anyway
18:52:03 <kipple> well, if svn doesn't have a problem with the wiki writing into the file tree, then that would work
18:52:37 <kipple> but you said earlier that that wouldn't work (or did I misunderstand?)
18:52:45 <pgimeno> hm, you haven't worked much with svn, right?
18:53:35 <pgimeno> I didn't think of the possibility of linking the images/ dir of the wiki previously
18:54:03 <pgimeno> but if that can work then I think it's the best solution
18:54:15 <kipple> well, AFAIK the images dir can be anywhere on the filesystem as far as the Wiki is concerned, so you don't even need to link
18:54:54 <pgimeno> but the upload can't be through the wiki interface
18:55:09 <kipple> then what's the point?
18:55:40 <pgimeno> the point is to handle all downloads uniformly (and all uploads too)
18:56:05 <kipple> well, I still don't see why it is a problem backing up the image dir
18:56:44 <kipple> anyway, if you don't upload the images through the wiki, then you would be back to external links
18:57:05 <kipple> unless you write a hack to modify the db when you add images....
18:57:30 <pgimeno> oh, do they need to be uploaded through the interface in order to be available?
18:57:57 <pgimeno> seems that I was thinking in a too HTMLish way
18:58:49 <kipple> and when you upload them through the wiki the gets put in a human-unfriendly hierarchy
18:59:38 <pgimeno> in that case it won't work anyway <sigh>
19:00:19 <kipple> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_file_usage#Uploaded_media_files
19:00:25 <pgimeno> I don't say it's a problem to back up yet another dir by itself, just that it's another possible point of failure and I don't like that
19:01:21 <pgimeno> hum, and how's the upload dir related to the images dir?
19:03:25 <kipple> is it because of svn you can't have uploads thorugh the wiki into the files archive?
19:03:59 <pgimeno> the svn filesystem is opaque
19:04:17 <kipple> can't you make it ignore one of the sub dirs?
19:04:28 <kipple> i.e. where the wiki files go
19:04:36 <pgimeno> it's working copies (wc's) the ones which contain the original files
19:05:24 <pgimeno> there's one possibility, namely manually commit the files into the archive, but that requires graue keeping the repository up-to-date wrt the wiki
19:06:02 <pgimeno> I already thought it was a bad idea :)
19:07:40 <pgimeno> it will ignore any subdirs in either the opaque repository or the working copy which is exposed for download, that's not a problem
19:08:17 <pgimeno> but I don't think that helps anyway
19:43:38 <jix> i'm writing a c kipple interpreter
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20:33:25 <pgimeno> better don't paste the song lyrics :)
20:34:27 <pgimeno> actually I don't know the music
20:34:45 <pgimeno> will it be in midi form somewhere?
20:35:08 <Keymaker> i have just some strange idea of melody and picture of pirates singing it..
20:36:10 <puzzlet> maybe someone has to compose it for the first time
20:39:11 <pgimeno> I'm now trying to decode the music from the Cakewalk version (I don't have Cakewalk but the note codes are there)
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21:20:10 <pgimeno> okay, got the speccy version ready
21:22:09 <pgimeno> if you have a Speccy emulator you can hear it :)
21:23:33 * pgimeno ponders on writing it to WAV
21:23:45 * pgimeno ponders on singing it to a WAV
21:24:14 <pgimeno> let's better let the speccy put the music... and nothing more
21:54:52 <pgimeno> it apparently has a bug but I've worked around it... http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bottles.ogg
21:55:28 <Keymaker> i don't think i have any ogg player
21:57:52 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bottles.mp3
21:58:18 <pgimeno> many players support ogg anyway
21:58:30 <pgimeno> but using lame is illegal, you know :P
21:59:42 <pgimeno> I'm just in doubt for the last part
22:00:16 <pgimeno> but it's almost impossible to describe on IRC
22:00:30 <Keymaker> good.. i don't understand music :p
22:01:15 <pgimeno> just because I don't see how syllabs(sp?) and song notes match
22:02:32 <Keymaker> but to entirely different thing: quick, go to vote ORK in 99bob page
22:02:36 <pgimeno> "98 bottles" has 4-5 syllabes
22:03:13 * GregorR tries to decide how 98 could be 4 syllables ...
22:03:25 <GregorR> nine-ty-eight = 3 syllables
22:04:11 <GregorR> Whoops, I meant "GregorR tries to decide how 98 could be 2 syllables ..."
22:04:30 <pgimeno> you may force nine-tyeight if sung, probably
22:04:31 <GregorR> Also, I meant "No, then it's 5"
22:04:44 <Keymaker> anyways, i can NOT understand why on earth somebody has voted that rexx language
22:05:03 <pgimeno> rexx is that amiga thing? there are many amiga fans
22:06:07 <pgimeno> the rexx version is trivial
22:07:38 <pgimeno> doh, the threaded C version sux
22:07:48 <pgimeno> why creating just 10 threads if you can create 99?
22:10:09 <GregorR> int main() { for (i = 0; ; i++) printf("%d bottles of beer in me, %d bottles of beer, I take one down and drink it all down, %d bottles of beer in me!\n", i, i, i+1); }
22:10:42 <GregorR> int main() { int i; for (i = 0; ; i++) printf("%d bottles of beer in me, %d bottles of beer, I take one down and drink it all down, %d bottles of beer in me!\n", i, i, i+1); }
22:11:04 * pgimeno notes the absence of a stop condition
22:11:26 <GregorR> This poor program is what we call an alcoholic.
22:13:18 <pgimeno> ow! Rexx has 3 votes and ork has 4 votes, both at 5.00
22:13:37 <GregorR> Then why is Rexx rated above ORK?
22:13:54 <jix> because it's an esovoting system
22:14:04 <pgimeno> I think I'm going to lower the Rexx version...
22:15:10 <pgimeno> after all it's nothing new in my opinion
22:15:30 <jix> ok i'm continue to write cipple the c kipple interpreter
22:16:27 <Keymaker> world needs more kipple interpreters
22:17:09 <jix> and it's going to be pretty fast (i hope so)
22:18:53 <jix> i'm going to parse the code into a struct-structure and than execute it.. the stack functions/structures are done..
22:48:02 <kipple> hey, what do I see! more interpreters are always welcome!
22:48:14 <kipple> and Keymaker: I totally agree :D
22:48:40 <jix> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/
22:49:10 * kipple is reading up on the log
22:49:18 <jix> but i'm going to add a special feature: live i/o
22:49:45 <jix> using the stack _ poping it is reading a char and pushing it is writing a char
22:50:25 <Keymaker> not sure is that good idea, since it isn't part of the language
22:50:31 <Keymaker> i think you should leave that out
22:50:40 <jix> but without it i can't write the number guessing game
22:51:04 <Keymaker> since only way to do that in kipple is pseudo-random
22:51:08 <kipple> the next version of the language has the ability to load customized stacks, so then you could do that
22:51:23 <Keymaker> you can as well hit random keys to input and start the program :)
22:52:37 <lament> hm, kipple is not too bad
22:53:26 * kipple just noticed ORK ruling the 99 bottles of beer list :)
22:53:46 <Keymaker> lament: the one that just said something about ork :)
22:54:14 <kipple> hehe. maybe I should change my nick to avoid more confusion
22:54:53 <lament> kipple: i really like the shortcuts
22:55:02 <lament> evil and functional :)
22:55:40 <jix> 0>a? << very useful
22:56:04 <jix> nooo a-0 ;)
22:56:17 <kipple> never underestimate the power of adding zero :)
22:56:24 <Keymaker> :) this far the only language that takes advantage of those :)
22:56:51 <kipple> in retrospect, though, I regret including the - operator
22:58:05 <lament> not having io during execution is ugly
22:58:27 <lament> even lazy k manages to have it
22:58:43 <lament> despite it being completely impossible and inappropriate
22:58:54 <Keymaker> i like it, only bad thing is that you can't make program that prints out infinite sequence
22:59:17 <lament> hm, can you do that in lazy k?
22:59:21 <kipple> ah, because of stack limitations?
22:59:34 <Keymaker> i meant that if i make a program
22:59:43 <lament> yeah, lazy k can print out infinite sequences
23:00:14 <kipple> if you wanna do that you have to wait for Kipple 05
23:00:27 <graue> will it be an ISO standard?
23:00:39 <jix> we need ESO standards !
23:00:40 <kipple> haha. no. maybe ESO... ;)
23:01:26 <lament> so is it usable? should i put stuff on there?
23:01:39 <lament> will it die within days?
23:02:00 <graue> not unless you consider 10,000+ days days, then it is possible
23:02:08 <lament> does anyone know of its existance?
23:02:25 <jix> a language with a prime generating example will never die!
23:03:26 <graue> i linked to it from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language, so everyone will soon know of its existence
23:03:42 <kipple> as for the ESO standard: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/esoapi/esoapi.html
23:04:54 <pgimeno> graue: about the files, are you going to enable MediaWiki uploads? (they need to be backed up too)
23:05:15 <kipple> I suggest zipping them together with the db-dump
23:05:35 <kipple> and only allow certain file types (images and perhaps some others)
23:10:28 <graue> i didn't know they weren't enabled, i'll see
23:10:29 <GregorR> That was a mean thing to do to Rexx :P
23:10:55 <lament> i think i agree with cpressey
23:10:57 <pgimeno> I don't know whether they are, I'm just asking if it's in your plans
23:11:00 <lament> file repository is more important than wiki
23:11:12 <lament> and ftp is probably the best solution
23:11:35 <GregorR> Err, not write-only, but no-overwrite
23:11:47 <kipple> anonymous write is not a good idea
23:12:03 <lament> ideally, with a maintainer
23:12:27 <kipple> I had one once, and it was quickly hijacked by software pirates
23:12:38 <lament> less ideally, a bunch of admins who can give out logins in this channel for example
23:12:55 <GregorR> I just think the more humans involved in giving access, the worse.
23:12:58 <jix> limit upload to 2mb/day/ip for anonymous
23:13:17 <lament> upload limit ought to work, i think.
23:13:30 <lament> i'm thinking of the Doom levels database
23:13:50 <lament> but that requires a very dedicated maintainer
23:14:09 <GregorR> Maybe a file-size limit rather than a bandwidth limit?
23:14:19 <graue> can you provide an anonymous FTP with those specifications, that will be easy to back up, and possible to access over HTTP?
23:14:20 <GregorR> With a 100k file size limit, it's worthless for pirates, but useful for esolangs.
23:14:29 <lament> no anonymous upload, except into /incoming
23:14:39 <lament> no downloading from /incoming
23:14:48 <lament> maintainer moves stuff from /incoming by hand
23:15:01 <lament> (once weekly or something)
23:15:03 <jix> my idea: a registered user has it's own directory for managing his files... and everyone can generate symlinks for categories etc.. example: kipple has his java interpreter in /users/kipple symlink to /langs/kipple/interpreters i have my c in /users/jix symlink to /langs/kipple/interpreters
23:15:05 <kipple> could work. don't think it will be that much traffic
23:15:07 <GregorR> Sorting misc. stuff is hard - what's wrong with uploads anywhere, but no overwrites?
23:15:27 <lament> there could still be vandalism
23:15:42 <jix> filesize is a bad idea imho
23:15:44 <lament> people would store their porn jpg collections, etc
23:15:47 <GregorR> Hmm, I guess if somebody wrote "kipple-1.1.zip" into the kipple dir, bad :P
23:15:54 <lament> also some esoteric things do have more than 100k files
23:16:05 <GregorR> (That is, if it was not kipple-1.1.zip)
23:16:59 <lament> the doom community has been fortunate enough to have the same person in charge of the archive for 10 years
23:17:05 <jix> the interpreter is done.. it's time for the parser
23:18:37 <kipple> I think ftp is a nice solution, as long as there is anonymous read acces over HTTP as well. svn might be a bit overkill for this
23:18:47 <lament> (btw why ftp rather than subversion? Because we don't need a version control system, just a repository)
23:19:37 * GregorR slips into his brand new, hypoallergenic shoes and struts away.
23:19:38 <lament> also as i understand it would be for complete (more or less) projects
23:19:45 <jix> i like the idea that every user has it's own directory and symlinking into the global repo
23:19:50 <lament> not projects in development that need a version control system
23:19:56 <pgimeno> yeah, svn was suggested because graue couldn't provide anonymous ftp IIRC
23:20:36 <pgimeno> it was something like "not optimal but works"
23:21:17 <lament> gopher would be even better than ftp :))))))
23:21:23 <graue> i think you guys are making the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy with all these great ideas that would have problems of their own, and will not be implemented
23:21:39 <graue> anyway, anyone who wants a svn account, insecurely send me a private message with the username and password you want
23:22:08 <lament> graue: but ftp is pretty much the simplest solution
23:22:25 <graue> lament: but i can't offer it, so it isn't
23:22:31 <jix> but mac os x is still not able to write to ftp using the finder
23:22:35 <graue> svn is the simplest solution, actually, because it's already set up
23:22:52 <jix> i'm able to setup everything i want
23:23:08 <pgimeno> graue: what about that propchange error? was that because of a wrong hook script or something?
23:23:11 <jix> but my server is slow, has a bandwidth limit, and is slow, and has only a 4gb harddisk
23:23:31 <lament> 4gb ought to be enough for all esoteric languages ever created in the galaxy :)
23:23:40 <jix> yes but 3gb are in use
23:24:21 <lament> wouldn't it be nice for something like ibiblio to give us space
23:25:37 <graue> what propchange error?
23:25:43 <lament> esoteric.google.com :)
23:26:38 <pgimeno> graue: iirc you had some issue with aura and subversion
23:26:59 <graue> no, that was my web browser
23:27:16 <graue> it has a bug involving downloading of files in a gzip-compressed way
23:28:41 <lament> do i need a svn client to upload to svn? To download from svn?
23:29:17 <graue> lament: yes to both, but you can also download files from HTTP
23:33:14 -!- calamari has joined.
23:38:03 <pgimeno> graue: so about the backups, what is needed is a database dump and the wiki uploads dir; can you set up those?
23:38:48 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Whitespace
23:39:00 <pgimeno> then I think it's all ready to get rolling
23:39:50 <kipple> I like your image policy :)
23:40:15 <lament> is there a kipple to brainfuck compiler yet?
23:40:40 <pgimeno> graue: who can upload images?
23:40:42 <kipple> I should like to see that
23:41:16 <lament> i guess i'll write one
23:41:26 <kipple> handling the 26 different stacks in BF would be a nightmare IMHO, but good luck!
23:41:56 <kipple> (but then I'm not much of a brainfucker)
23:42:00 <lament> parsing kipple would be the hardest part
23:44:36 <graue> pgimeno, anyone with an account i think
23:46:06 <Keymaker> harder than the stacks would be the big numbers, i guess
23:46:24 <Keymaker> in case you'll do the work on 8-bit implementation
23:46:44 <lament> hm, i don't want to do that :)