00:01:20 cool :) 00:01:55 uh oh.. phone call.. bbiaw. graue: thanks btw.. sorry if I came across a little sharp earlier 00:02:46 that's ok, you actually did not 00:03:53 so graue, my concern is with language distributions rather than programs writtem in the languages; they're usually (mostly) zips/tarballs 00:04:25 are they? 00:04:39 most brainfuck implementations are single files 00:04:45 true 00:04:49 the modular SNUSP interpreter and tracer are each single files 00:04:57 the wierd implementations are each single .c files 00:05:06 but many are archives 00:05:57 well, malbolge is in both zip and tarball; true too; false too IIRC; my own brainfuck debugger... 00:06:09 are they mostly small enough to be stored unrolled, like 4 or 5 files in a directory? 00:06:31 why store them unrolled? 00:06:54 I think that they should be distributed as the author pretended, i.e. full distros 00:07:21 if they're stored unrolled, you can check out the whole thing via svn and voila, you have a big esoteric language distribution ready to use 00:07:28 but maybe that's not practical 00:07:40 hmm. that could be very practical 00:08:05 in my view, preservation includes holding the original distributions 00:08:07 but you should also have the option of downloading the archive. 00:08:38 if you have to download each file individually it gets a bit tedious if there are many files 00:09:07 indeed 00:09:19 And presenting individual files is a modification of the original package, invoking clauses in licenes. 00:10:09 i doubt that the unmodified output of "tar xzvf whatever.tar.gz" really counts as a derivative work 00:11:11 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:11:14 If it's different, it's a derivative. 00:11:44 most licenses would not care about that, provided all the files were there, and no new files 00:12:15 I think I've seen GPLed languages 00:13:03 the GPL would be an example of a license for which this doesn't matter 00:14:05 graue: if we don't use the mediawiki for file storage, how would upload work? web interface, or something else? 00:14:14 ftp? 00:17:08 you would checkout svn, copy a file into your tree and svn add it 00:17:11 or just send it to me to do that 00:17:21 hmm. that's not very user friendly 00:18:01 sending it to me is pretty user-friendly, no? 00:18:28 depends on how friendly you are ;) 00:18:50 haha 00:19:23 I would prefer a solution that doesn't have to go through a middle man... 00:19:54 but wont we have to ha file upload enabled in the wiki anyway to allow images? 00:20:02 truly 00:20:04 ftp might be the other alternative 00:20:11 is it possible to set up? 00:20:33 why am I asking... if there's svn there must be ftp 00:20:36 ftp isn't really user-friendly 00:20:44 much more than svn 00:21:11 much less than http, by which you can get the files now 00:21:33 I think the superior way to have a metadistribution of languages would be a bunch of .tar.gzs with a script to extract, compile and organize them all. 00:21:35 i might disagree, kipple ;) but anyway many people are used to uploading their pages via ftp to the web server 00:21:37 I meant ftp for upload. you could still get them by ftp 00:21:55 Umm, lesse ... an extracted archive is not a derivitive work because the copyright is over the code, not the archive ... 00:22:03 So much damn log >_O 00:22:49 And as per file storage, my personal preference is within the wiki, seems kludgy to have to upload it via some other means. 00:22:51 argh. get them by HTTP I meant 00:22:58 sftp with accounts may be available, anonymous ftp is not available (at least, i can't provide it) 00:23:06 I also vote for putting files in MediaWiki. 00:23:13 -!- calamari has joined. 00:23:28 I wasn't here, I was at work. 00:23:59 malaprop: the objection to mediawiki is the lack of hierarchy 00:24:23 but if the files are zips/tarballs, is that a problem? you only need to get one file 00:24:45 which should be available on the appropriate wiki page 00:25:03 many files are not, though 00:25:20 language distributions, yes, sometimes; programs written in the languages, generally, no 00:25:33 graue: I expect only (trusted) editors to upload files, not anonymous people; sftp is ok to me 00:25:39 I don't think there's any need for the FILES to be in a hierarchy - the hierarchy is in the design of the Wiki. They can just be sitting in one big directory, so long as the wiki makes their purposes obvious. 00:25:45 I still don't see the big problem. The programs should be listed on the language page 00:26:12 GregorR: Excactly what I think as well 00:26:48 kipple: I intended the articles to be like those on Wikipedia, overviews of the languages, with links to detailed examples, programs, and implementations in other places 00:27:06 I don't think a language article should be updated just because someone wrote a new program in that language 00:27:29 ah. but I thought the point was to preserve content from other pages in case they disappear 00:27:39 that is the point 00:27:45 that is the point of the files directory 00:27:56 with the wiki, we generally can't do that anyway, because the content from those other pages is not PD 00:27:58 I see no reason to separate the two... 00:28:05 graue: the files directory becomes useless if it is just a big lump of files 00:28:20 why? what's useless about that? 00:28:23 not if you can conveniently link to them from wiki pages 00:28:55 okay 00:29:16 so the article would still be updated, with a link to the new file 00:29:26 Humm - if we want to properly preserve dead pages, I don't think doing that IN the wiki is possible...it would need to be a .zip of the page anyway. 00:29:38 as for programs in esolangs, I think there should be a separate page for each language with a bunch of programs, where people can upload their own code 00:29:52 that'd be nice 00:30:09 gregor: yes, but the question is still where that zip should be stored ;) 00:30:49 kipple: i agree.. otherwise people won't go through the trouble of begging for permission to upload each and every file 00:31:27 yes. I fear that if you have to contact an admin to upload, most will not bother 00:31:49 however, allowing everyone to upload whatever is problematic as well.... ;( 00:31:55 it seems reasonable to allow people that have accounts to upload files 00:32:59 it's not hard to sign up for an account.. took me less than 30 seconds :) 00:34:25 I think the restrictions on upload should be on size and file type, not whether you are a user (as calamari said, that takes only 30 secs to fix, so there's not much security in that anyway) 00:35:10 kipple: good point.. so they can block php, html, perl, etc 00:35:30 if they have a legit program that is in php, it can be zipped 00:36:07 yep 00:38:32 Why would you block PHP, HTML, perl? 00:38:54 because the server would try to execute them 00:39:16 though I think you can block that in the apache config 00:39:24 So use a .htaccess to serve them instead. Is not at all difficult. 00:40:56 I know I don't have that level of control over my web hosting.. but maybe graue does? 00:41:35 Rather than having a blacklist there should be a whitelist ... 00:42:03 Only allow images (png, jpg, jpeg, gif), archives (zip, tar, tar.gz, tar.bz2), and docs (ps, pdf) 00:42:04 that would create problems for source code in a lot of esolangs... 00:42:15 Anything that's not one of those formats can be .tar'd or .zip'd. 00:42:26 Ohhh, I see. 00:42:31 Humm. 00:42:42 Mayhaps I should read the log *shrugs* 01:00:13 it seems we won't have the files issue sorted out today 01:00:52 nite all 01:01:25 note 01:01:33 LOL nite I mean 01:02:35 cya pgimeno 01:06:25 I know how we can all agree on how the files are set up. 01:06:27 It's simple. 01:06:34 Giki?? ;) 01:06:37 Whatever kipple says next will officially be however the files are set up. 01:06:56 See, it's simple, just hold one person accountable 8-D 01:07:09 Nobody except that one poor schmuck feels bad if it doesn't work right 8-D 01:07:24 And yes, Giki is of course the solution to all problems :P 01:07:37 kipple: Say: MediaWiki. 01:07:51 * GregorR hear-hears that 01:07:56 kipple: I'll give you a dollar if you say MediaWiki. 01:08:25 So now you have an excuse if it all goes terribly wrong -- you can say I blinded you with promises of riches. 01:08:28 Apparently two people now accept that as a method of determination, that's almost a majority ;) 01:09:01 kipple is now afraid to talk :P 01:09:15 I'm honored :D 01:09:30 "I'm honored" is not a way to set up files. 01:10:22 why me? 01:11:05 OK. Here it comes. *drumrolls* 01:11:40 BOS : http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/bf.html 01:13:02 kipple: Well, if you're volunteering to write the TCP/IP stack... 01:14:01 It's too late. 01:14:10 "I'm honored :D" is the method. 01:14:17 haha 01:14:39 We must decode this, like a biblical phrase that has little meaning but in the hands of an idiot can mean that God hates Jews. 01:16:07 I'm just the prophet. I'll leave interpretation to you guys.... 01:16:43 (or you could write an interpreter for it.... ) 01:17:13 of course god hates jews 01:17:25 bbl.. phone again :) 01:17:28 i'm surprised there's no god-hating-jews esoteric language yet 01:17:31 maybe i should write one 01:17:39 XD 01:17:50 * GregorR shaves off a significant chunk of his nose, just-in-case. 01:18:11 i don't think nose is the right body part 01:18:28 I considered writing a language once were the syntax is in the form of Commandments... 01:18:59 Thou shalt write "Hello World!" to StdOut 01:19:00 I think a "begot" language would be fun. 01:19:12 The stack begot a register. 01:19:16 The register begot a value. 01:19:24 LOL 01:19:25 And the value lived for 300 years, and had 15 children. 01:35:37 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:54:02 -!- graue has quit ("Are you a Schweinpenis? If so, type "I am not a Schweinpenis.""). 02:36:26 -!- calamari has joined. 02:42:06 hi 03:49:03 yay, files are working :) 03:56:17 Using the "I'm honored :D" method? 03:56:50 nope.. no floppies involved here :) 03:56:57 Ahh, of course 03:57:35 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:13:55 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 04:21:10 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:29:12 -!- graue has joined. 04:29:27 does anyone have a copy of that aura language page (that was from nhi.netfirms.com/aura.html)? 04:29:54 the wayback machine doesn't have it anymore, and subversion somehow corrupted my saved copy 04:31:42 I don't have it.. need to use the phone bbl 04:34:49 never mind, i figured it out 04:35:08 it seems to be a bug in my browser; the file was transferred gzipped and was not decoded 04:38:23 http://giki.sourceforge.net/index.php?title=subwindow%20rendering%20plugin# 04:38:24 :) 04:46:06 Transmitting file data ....................svn: Commit failed (details follow): 04:46:06 svn: At least one property change failed; repository is unchanged 04:46:17 i hate esoteric revision control systems 04:48:14 lol 04:50:15 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:55:03 by the way, are you aware that you misspelled instantiate repeatedly in the ORK documentation? 04:55:08 Yup 04:55:17 It's too late now, since it's a built in function 8-D 04:55:36 So I'm just going to live in a world where instanCe translates to instanCiate. 04:55:45 Which would make infinitely more sense. 04:55:47 what's the mime type for a .tar.bz2? 04:56:02 instanciate looks wimpy 04:56:17 application/x-bzip2 04:56:46 I don't think it would have a different mime type for .tar.bz2 vs .bz2 >_> <_< 04:59:06 i remember seeing application/x-gzipped-tar or something like that 04:59:28 Hmm 04:59:39 oh well, all svn really needs to know is it's binary 05:00:07 application/octet-stream 05:00:08 :P 05:00:35 yeah that should be what it thinks it is now 05:01:38 ORK is now available from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/ 05:01:59 Coolio 07:33:09 * GregorR-L just wrote a CamelCase plugin for Giki :) 07:52:13 eww why 07:58:10 Because I hate it :-P 07:58:25 But more because I want Giki to be pluginnable to basically anything anybody could ever want it to be. 07:58:47 CamelCase is very lame though :P 07:58:54 Anyway, sleep for me, have work in the morning. 07:58:57 See you all later. 07:59:00 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:08:16 -!- graue has quit ("Are you a Schweinpenis? 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Just to be mean :p 14:20:09 haha 14:20:13 ooh 14:20:19 I should write an esoteric meta-language 14:20:41 jix: So, is the function of operators overloaded by thread# or something like that? 14:20:54 GregorR: you know digital circuits ? 14:21:12 To a very, very limited degree 8-D 14:21:16 I understand and, or, not, etc. 14:21:18 you can build anything with just 2 gates.. OR and NOT or AND and NOT 14:21:24 Right, I know that much. 14:21:43 and every gate processes at every time it's input.. thus every gate is a thread 14:21:52 and that's my language 14:22:02 nice 14:22:06 Hmm, that's very strange, I'll have to check that out 14:22:20 actually, I just remembered an idea I had ages ago 14:22:32 a language based entirely on mathematics, with no if statements 14:22:47 it's hard to explain exactly what I mean, but lemme find a demonstration 14:22:58 i'm at 13 line of codes..^^ but it's weekend so i have plenty of time... 14:23:00 Unlambda? 14:23:09 not based on functionality exactly 14:23:53 diff = (targetangle -_radaraim) % 360 14:23:54 radarright( diff + 360 * ((diff % 181 - diff) % 180) ) 14:24:02 jix: so do you have an example of syntax? 14:24:08 that was from some robot battle code I wrote ages ago 14:24:26 http://rafb.net/paste/results/lIodw042.html 14:24:54 that is a "standardlib" implementing: buffer , 0 , 1 , & , ^ 14:25:28 well, that certainly looks esoteric :) 14:25:43 oh it has operator overloading.. you can define a 3-input or ... 14:26:26 the problem is turing completeness.. with 2 instructions it is as turing complete as BF with limited memory 14:26:53 with a 3rd binary stack instructions it is turing complete (because i know how to implement a BF interpreter) 14:30:19 if anyone's trying to puzzle out that radar code, it rotates left or right based on whether the amount to rotate is over 180 or not 14:32:51 if diff <= 180 then the whole statement will be diff + (diff - diff) % 180 * 360, which is just diff + 0... if diff = 182 then (diff % 181 - diff) is 1 - diff, so -181 % 180 is -1, so it becomes (diff - 360) 14:33:06 in essence replacing an if statement with a multiply-by-zero 14:34:09 I think (but can't be sure) that you should be able to do something similar for any number, and thus make a totally ifless language based on the modulus operator 14:34:32 loops, though, I'm not sure about 14:34:52 recursion perhaps? 14:35:27 yeah, but that feels a little too much like a functional language 14:35:45 how to terminate recursion without ifs ? 14:36:27 hmm, maybe I could make a couple of special variables 14:36:31 and we all know how to unroll recursion with loops and queues.. don't we ;) 14:36:52 I'd need to for I/O anyway 14:51:21 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 14:51:35 -!- jix has joined. 15:00:44 jix: your language certainly looks intersting. 15:01:20 * kipple likes languages where you can construct everything from a few atoms 15:01:35 mm, feels very elegant 15:01:49 let us know when you have something close to a spec... 15:02:51 the interpreter is going to be the spec ^^^ 15:03:10 a classic approach :) 15:04:36 jix: about these ^^^ you use. What's their meaning? Is this some IRC slang I'm not familiar with? 15:04:37 hmmm thats a new bug in xchat-aqua if i type ^^ and press return it prints ^^^ 15:05:28 and ^^ is something like ;) 15:05:41 ok 15:07:34 bbl 15:08:24 ^^ is an anime smiley 15:09:19 hey, a smiley based language would be briefly funny 15:09:28 there is one 15:09:50 oh i forgot that i'm away sry .. 15:09:51 thought about that myself, but there is one alrady 15:10:00 otherwise a damn fine plan 15:25:25 back 15:28:05 ooh 15:28:08 ascii flowchart based language 15:28:09 that'd be neat 15:33:10 I did start something similar in Powerpoint a while back 15:33:42 after all: why do we always have to limit ourselves to text files :) 15:33:57 haha 15:34:05 I was considering doing it graphically, but that'd be tricky 15:34:26 plus you could probably represent more complex ideas more easily with graphics 15:34:51 If I get around to do it again, I would probably use OpenOffice presentation files 15:35:33 why not post-script compatible files 15:36:00 because I'm not familiar with post-script 15:36:27 it's very easy..but it's a programming language on it's own 15:36:59 but one of the main points was to avoid writing code 15:37:01 hopefully without godel complexity :P 15:38:47 kipple: hmm yes.. piet is code less 15:39:03 yes. I know. It's the only one I know about 15:39:16 (except un-esoteric langs of course) 15:40:16 the presentation file format is nice, because it is divided into pages. The first page would hold the main program, and the other pages could hold modules 16:12:16 making it image based would be fun 16:12:18 png programs :D 16:12:56 yeah. the world needs more non-ascii languages... 16:21:00 hmm i think i need to write a spec for my language.. because no one can read my code (it is written in ruby an it's not easy to write write only code in ruby..) 16:22:49 a spec is always nice :) 16:24:17 ruby! :) 16:25:08 and i'm going to write the spec in german and my own esoteric (non programming) language.. 16:25:46 haha 16:26:12 and there is no spec for my language.. so have fun learning german ;) 16:26:41 english is so much easier than german 16:27:50 hmm.. sometimes i think german is an esoteric language 16:29:35 hah. well, it has an excessively complicated syntax... 16:29:54 german is simple if you speak my kind of german 16:30:04 which is just 'das' followed by whatever you would say in english 16:30:49 and the "methods" get spelled different if they have different arguments .. and the arguments get spelled different if they have different methods and.... 16:31:59 it's like having strcmp(a,b) stringcmp{A "Hallo"} strcomp[``Hallo'',$0b] ;) 16:32:59 jix: are you german, btw? 16:33:01 oh and a funny german sentence: die, die die , die die diesel tanks angezündet haben, gefangen haben, sind schlau. it's valid syntax 16:33:03 yes 16:33:40 ouch. what does it mean? 16:33:56 my german is not good enough for that kind of sentences... 16:34:34 it's: those who catched those who ... 16:34:51 ah 16:35:12 5 die's isn't that common but 3 are 16:35:48 and there are so many irregular things in the german language... 16:36:23 funny norwegian sentence which, contrary to yours I believe, is used a lot: er det det det er? 16:36:50 and what does it mean? 16:37:02 is that what it is? 16:37:19 and the answer could be (if positive): det er det det er. 16:37:31 having the same word for that, what and it is awesome :D 16:37:50 but I guess what is just the interrogative case version of it 16:37:58 in german: ist es das was es ist answer: es ist das was es ist 16:38:34 well, it can't really be directly translated to what, but it's as close as it gets 16:38:34 you know inform ? 16:39:11 inform? no 16:39:12 the text-adventure language ? 16:39:35 the documentation for the german lib must be 10 times the size of the english one 16:40:09 heh 16:40:55 declination(??) of nouns is fun... 16:40:55 it could be interesting to make an esolang based on german grammar (like jix's examples) 16:41:03 in spanish there's a sentence saying: "¿Cómo cómo como? Como como como" 16:41:18 That's because the English word "variable" in German is "Gebudenkraftworkendomesserschmidt". 16:41:30 haha 16:41:36 kraftwork? :o 16:41:37 malaprop: loool 16:41:51 variable is.. Variable 16:42:20 in CXI german it's 'das variable' 16:42:21 pgimeno: what does it mean? 16:42:31 CXI: Die Variable 16:42:39 variable is masculine 16:42:41 you're thinking of real german :P 16:42:43 ähh... 16:42:48 feminine ^^ 16:42:48 lol 16:42:53 or, as I would put it 16:42:56 das real german :P 16:43:02 das echte deutsch 16:43:06 kipple: it's like "Why [do you ask that] how do I eat? I eat as I eat" (actually there's one omission that is a little forced; it should start with "¿Cómo que cómo como?" 16:43:09 ) 16:43:51 der CXI kann wohl kein wort deutsch 16:43:55 jix: shouldn't it be: das echte Deutsch ? 16:44:16 kipple: capitalization sucks ... 16:44:21 haha 16:44:28 jix; mein hund ist kaput 16:44:38 CXI: your dog is broken ? 16:44:43 he certainly is 16:44:48 my condolences 16:45:03 it's funny, I told him I could get him fixed, but he didn't like the idea 16:45:12 but in german you wouldn't say a dog is kaputt.. 16:45:27 you would say verletzt or krank but not kaputt 16:45:51 only things can be kaputt.. not animals or humans 16:45:57 no, no, I wanted it to literally translate to broken :D 16:46:13 ok... 16:46:29 that way I could make my awesome "fixed" double-entendre 16:46:31 there is a german language.. you know applescript ? 16:46:39 in some time there was a german and french applescript 16:47:16 I think there was a time when some thought it a good idea to translate programming languages 16:47:44 I seem to remember having seen portugese pascal somewhere 16:47:46 wenn der wert größer als 4 ist dann beepe == if the value is bigger than 4 then beep == valid apple script 16:48:34 hmm. my IRC client doesn't seem to handle german letters... 16:48:46 maybe it's because i use utf-8 16:48:55 "how up do high knee" ^^ 16:49:20 umm. what?? 16:49:48 how up do high knee == hau ab du heini == go away you idiot... it's just funny if you know english and german 16:50:23 ok back to decl 17:08:30 ...ping... anyone here ? 17:11:24 pong 17:13:11 ok.. 17:18:28 :o 17:19:39 the decl parser is very difficult to implement 17:25:51 what os do you (all) use ? 17:28:24 GNU/Linux 17:28:28 windows, but not for any good reason 17:28:40 osx 17:28:46 well, mainly because it's what I know, and linux is absolutely horrible to use if you don't know it 17:28:48 Mandr{ake,iva} to be specific. 17:28:59 CXI: Stigma, not true. 17:29:03 Windows mainly, but I also have a debian box 17:29:08 that's not strigma 17:29:14 er, stigma 17:29:18 it's based on my own experiences 17:29:26 With what? Debian? :P 17:30:03 I *can* run linux, in fact I've done so on different occasions, but it's a pain because if something goes wrong, fixing it requires knowing exactly the right arcane sequence of commands and config files 17:30:26 Xandros, Mandr{ake,iva}, Ubuntu, even Fedora have robust graphical configuration systems. 17:30:57 Mandriva is the worst name ever :P 17:31:03 Yeah, it is X-D 17:31:06 but yeah, I had issues with it too 17:31:08 It's Mandrake + Connectiva 17:31:20 Anyway, I'm not actually here, I'm at work, so *disappears* 17:33:06 i'm happy with osx.. but sometimes i need windows (for windows only apps (fpga programming.. the linux tools aren't free (the last time i checked))) and my servers are running on debian(and if something goes wrong you have a problem) 17:34:40 my machine is running debian and if something goes wrong I have a problem 17:35:00 but then at work I have Windows and if something goes wrong I have a problem 17:35:18 my machine's running win2k and if something goes wrong I can probably fix it in ten minutes to an hour depending on what it is 17:35:39 All my machines run Linux and they don't have problems. 17:35:47 a linux problem I could probably fix in comparable time provided I had access to the right documentation (ie internet), and it wasn't a really obscure problem that nobody else has ever had 17:36:05 unfortunately I seem to attract the latter kind of problem :/ 17:36:54 on windows i can fix problems as fast as an average windows user.. on debian i need 4 times the time a linux guru would need and on osx.. hmm what went wrong.. hmm i got kernel panics with an additional kernel extension so i removed it.. no other big problems 17:37:51 oh wait.. i wrote a perl script to batch delete files.. but.. executed it in the wrong terminal window.. (root and in the wrong directory) 17:38:37 ouch 17:38:40 in debian most of the things that can go wrong are not the system's fault, but that's how FOSS works 17:38:40 my /System/ directory was somewhat.. empty but a reinstall system keep user settings did it... 17:40:21 in some sense you accept the bugs if you go the FOSS way 17:40:52 (and... well, the mainteinance pain too) 17:42:20 every coder has his own idea on how things should work, and you have to know sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts and lots of other things 17:42:29 with osx i don't want to use plain darwin (because if something goes wrong i have the same situation as with debian) but with osx on top it's a lot easier 18:02:15 ewww sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts 18:02:17 ewwwww 18:03:20 some windows problems can be pretty bad 18:03:50 it took me like a day to get rid of spyware my friend got 18:04:07 now what's the last time you had a problem like that on a unix... 18:07:31 oh hehe, windows is pretty complex when you go deeper than simple user level, especially with everything surrounding IE 18:15:57 but you don't need to use IE just because you use windows... 18:16:57 I don't 18:21:54 my friend didn't use IE... 18:22:12 the spyware affected firefox equally well 18:58:10 No spyware high-horses - GNU/Linux is just as susceptible to spyware as Windows is, so long as they're not in viral form. It's not very virus susceptible but it's still idiot-user susceptible. 18:58:43 very true 19:00:19 i don't think my friend's an idiot :) 19:00:41 well... she uses firefox, at least, and doesn't open email from strangers 19:00:48 (and doesn't use OE) 19:01:28 man that thing was a mean piece of work 19:01:32 People package spyware in downloaded programs. You run them, you get spyware. There's no reason that that wouldn't work in ANY operating system, the only way to block it would be with the even worse big-brother trusted computing. 19:02:09 * GregorR goes back to his job at Intel, a major supporter of trusted computing :P 19:02:14 it prevented the antispyware programs from running, it changed all links to security/spyware websites, it somehow modified google search results 19:02:49 (not in safe mode, thankfully. But still that's rather impressive) 19:03:46 and all of that in any browser 19:04:13 that's actually quite cool (in an evil way) 19:04:22 yes 19:05:00 now if only those who create such stuff would use their skills for sensible things instead 19:05:09 yes :( 19:05:15 like esoteric programming languages, for instance... :) 19:06:18 haha 19:06:24 somebody should write a spyware esolang 19:06:46 with all your keystrokes as input and random popups as output 19:06:59 a HQ9+ like thing ^^ STVCK Spy Trojan Virus Crash Keylog 19:07:19 /back 19:09:31 -!- calamari has joined. 19:09:56 hi 19:10:03 moin calamari 19:15:10 hi jix 19:19:01 i have about 100 lines of code for decl (without empty lines) 19:23:11 100 lines of decl code, or 100 lines of decl implementation in ruby? 19:30:22 100 lines of implementation... it loads all included files and splits the code into the modules 19:50:54 latest version of EsoShell is online: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/ features: command line parsing ('"\), i/o redirection, ctrl-c=break 19:51:13 should be pretty good at this point :) 19:55:03 so, "echo a > b" does no longer print "a > b"? :) 19:55:20 oh, it still does 19:55:31 nope.. 19:55:51 maybe you need to reload? could be cached 19:56:03 probably it is... hm 19:56:34 echo a > b produces no output (as expected). cat b gives: a 19:57:39 do you happen about any way to force mozilla to reload which does not imply clearing the cache? 19:58:10 happen to know 19:58:31 no, sorry.. for testing I had to disable my cache and close/open firefox every time I want to retest 19:59:00 you can clear just the cached paged, though.. shouldn't lose much with that 20:00:17 trying... 20:02:14 oh cool, just realized I restructured my code in such a way that allowing >> is easier to do :) 20:02:24 * calamari adds it to the TODO list 20:02:39 I haven't found how to refresh 20:03:37 >> doesn't work here 20:03:42 pgimeno: here is how I had to do it before I disabled my cache: 1) close all browser windows, 2) open fresh browser, clear the cache 3) try the page 20:03:56 jix: doesn't work == ? 20:03:58 restarting mozilla is a pain for me 20:04:28 calamari: echo a >> b echo b >> b cat b gives just b 20:04:48 jix: that's because I haven't implemented >> yet 20:05:48 you should be able to use > and < just fine, though 20:06:28 < is harder to test right now.. only pause and cat really use input 20:07:35 afk.. shower 20:21:38 bbl.. phone :) 20:21:44 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:34:39 np: The Flaming Sideburns - Drive On [ Sky Pilots ] 21:08:15 -!- calamari has joined. 21:12:36 wb 21:14:00 thanks :) 21:23:25 jix: >> should be implemented now :) 21:23:44 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:23:54 hi fizzie 21:23:59 Hello. 21:24:44 Hadn't remembered to rejoin here, it seems. 21:26:35 My girlfriend (accidentally, she claims) kicked the reset switch of my router/firewall box, sesefras, at 2005-05-20. Perhaps I should make this automagically connect to freenode too. 21:28:18 hi fizzie 21:34:01 oops, looks like I had left some debugging statements on.. fixed :) 21:38:23 Is it just me or is meme.b9.com having issues? 21:53:10 -!- wooby has joined. 22:05:52 primitive bf interpreter on EsoShell (just wanted to get something up!) 22:07:44 bbl 22:07:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:12:34 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:12:47 * Keymaker appears mysteriously 22:12:54 hello 22:13:04 might be a good time to read the logs.. 22:23:13 hi Keymaker 22:23:51 I don't think you're able to read them all in a row 22:24:35 hio 22:26:30 hi wooby 22:26:47 did you install MediaWiki? 22:31:02 rgh.. way too lazy to read it all.. could someone summary in one word what is going on? :) 22:31:05 hi Keymaker. been away? 22:31:10 yeah 22:31:11 or well 22:31:15 one word: wiki 22:31:21 pgimeno: not yet... had some weird problem getting mysql working 22:31:25 studying x) 22:31:32 ok 22:31:38 cheers kipple 22:31:41 have you been reading the mailinglist? 22:31:45 me? 22:32:09 yes, you 22:32:20 no, sir 22:32:25 i don't read the esolang list 22:32:31 only friends of brainfuck 22:32:45 ok. then you might want to read this: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html 22:33:46 aargh too much text 22:33:53 i'm too lazy to read anything :) 22:34:01 ok, i'll take a look then.. 22:34:42 don't know when you last were here, but in short we're trying to make an alternative to wikipedia, as a place to store info about esolangs 22:35:49 probably four days ago 22:35:52 i guess 22:35:56 ok 22:36:01 good project 22:36:15 nice to see well coordinated (?) work :) 22:36:34 the consensus seems to be on using mediawiki, but the files section has not been decided yet 22:37:26 here's the site: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ 22:38:22 ok 22:39:32 kipple: will that be the main site? 22:39:43 i think it should be possible to attach to every page an spec, an tutorial, many examples.. like Brainfuck Brainfuck:Tutorial Brainfuck:Specs Brainfuck:Examples 22:40:18 you can do that 22:40:40 this project seems really good, it think it's good that these language can get archived 22:40:46 kipple: if so, i'd be glad to point esolangs.org at it 22:41:07 I think that's a good idea. 22:41:35 hey you own esolangs.org? :) 22:41:56 Keymaker: indeed 22:42:29 cool 22:45:49 I'm taking a rest for today, I've got many things a bit outdated 22:46:04 ok 22:46:22 (I mean a rest about the wiki etc) 22:46:51 rest in peace, pgimeno ;) 22:47:29 :) 22:47:35 ah.. rest.. 22:47:40 i'd need rest.. 22:48:12 try writing a Malbolge quine. That should relax you 22:48:20 * Keymaker dies 22:48:38 :p 22:48:52 i think i'll try some brainfuck 22:48:52 X-PPPPP 22:48:53 or write a HQ9++ quine with 2 Q's in the sourcecode 22:49:06 :) 22:49:51 more seriously, I'd like to write the Malbolge entry in the wiki 22:50:06 please do! 22:50:18 as soon as I'm done with other priorities 22:50:25 yeah 22:50:34 that will be interesting 22:50:36 and i'm going to write a decl entry as soon as decl is finished 22:50:42 decl? 22:50:50 my new esolang 22:50:55 tell me more! 22:50:56 * kipple points to the log 22:51:01 grggg 22:51:10 link me up, kipple! 22:51:24 and now /me moves on instead of chit-chatting all the time 22:51:29 Keymaker: it needs 4 'threads' to AND 2 bits 22:51:58 what are the threads? 22:53:15 they arn't real threads 22:53:24 but what are they 22:53:42 i have no idea what that word means 22:54:02 hm.. it's easier to explain with a working interpreter and some examples 22:54:05 Keymaker: btw, I finally have the linux binary version of Kipple up on the web site if your still interested 22:54:19 sure 22:54:44 mmh kipple site is updated! 22:55:15 the site looks nice! 22:55:28 i'll switch to linux, i'll be back soon. 22:55:30 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 22:58:27 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:58:55 back 22:59:06 that was fast. was that a reboot? 22:59:43 yeah 23:00:03 not bad 23:00:53 glad you liked the new look. just switching from Times to Arial does wonders.... 23:01:04 yeah 23:01:11 the colours are changed a bit 23:01:12 in links 23:01:14 iirc 23:01:16 yes 23:01:49 since I first applied a style sheet, I couldn't just use the same old blue/purple links. 23:02:10 heh 23:03:17 rhhhh can't get it working. i wish i could use this better 23:03:20 it complains something about 23:03:35 "cannot open shared object file.." 23:03:56 probably i'm missing some stuff 23:04:01 what linux are you running? 23:04:17 it's this mandrake 10.0 23:04:26 and here I thought it didn't depend on anything :( 23:04:38 probably i'm just missing some stuff 23:06:09 does it say which object file it cannot find? 23:06:31 libgcj 23:06:37 something like that 23:06:43 ok. makes sense 23:06:50 btw, what was the compiling line you told me back then? 23:06:55 though I thought it wouldn't depend on that 23:06:58 i'll try to compile the source 23:07:11 (probably can't get that working either ;)) 23:07:15 if you don't have libgcj I don't think you'll have much luck 23:07:50 hm :( 23:08:04 gcj --main=Kipple Kipple.jar -o kipple 23:08:07 hola 23:09:02 tried that now 23:09:05 doesn't work 23:09:11 i hate computers!!!!1 23:09:25 for now on i will just program brainfuck on paper 23:09:27 they hate you too 23:09:30 yes 23:10:52 kipple; you could try compiling a binary with "-static" perhaps. 23:11:07 is that the option I'm looking for? 23:11:17 try it, whatever it is! :) 23:11:38 I'm not sure what option you are looking for, but it should link it statically and thusly include the necessary libraries in the executable. 23:11:52 sounds cool! 23:11:57 that's exactly what I was browsing the docs for... 23:12:10 try it now if you can! ;) 23:12:12 i'm trying to calculate prime numbers using kipple.. 23:12:22 that's cool! 23:12:55 I got a lot of warnings, and a 4 megabyte executable, but it seems to work 23:13:25 what kind of warnings? 23:13:29 try it Keymaker 23:13:51 sure 23:13:54 where to get it? 23:14:08 same place, same file (just much bigger) 23:14:12 'ok 23:14:32 "Now with even more fun." 23:14:34 jix: great! always nice to hear people using it :D 23:15:43 the warnings are: 23:15:43 warning: Using '' in statically linked applications requires at runtime 23:15:43 the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking 23:16:47 replace with dlopen, getpwuid_r, gethostbyaddr_r and gethostbyname_r 23:17:38 anyway, it looks like it will still require glibc. But thats much better than requiring libgcj! 23:17:45 Heh. Well, with any luck your glibc versions do match. 23:18:19 I use 3.3.5 23:18:24 arg..?? dividing 2 numbers using kipple 23:18:41 hehe. the joys of esoteric progamming :) 23:19:06 sed is almost like an esoteric language, too. 23:19:34 w00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000t 23:19:37 it works! :D 23:19:40 yay! 23:19:49 what gcc version do you have? 23:20:03 me? 23:20:34 yes 23:20:40 dunno 23:20:46 ah, well. it works 23:20:50 ye 23:20:50 s 23:20:52 i' 23:20:53 ll 23:21:00 try to program something 23:21:13 though the compiled version ran twice as slow as the regular on my computer 23:21:17 G'night, people. (0122am localtime.) 23:21:34 nite 23:21:42 good night 23:22:55 btw; that your bfpretty.b is neat, kipple 23:23:16 i've planned a bit similar idea, that i will do sometime 23:23:41 but it will make code like ,[-[-[++++]]] look like 23:23:43 , 23:23:44 [ 23:23:48 - 23:23:58 (hopefully there is two spaces) 23:24:04 [ 23:24:06 ah, the opposite of bfpretty? 23:24:08 - 23:24:12 yeah 23:24:13 kinda 23:24:15 yes 23:24:19 ha :) 23:24:25 you could call it bfugly then :D :D 23:24:31 :D 23:24:38 maybe i will 23:24:40 good name ida 23:24:43 *idea 23:24:43 actually, that would be REALLY nice 23:24:57 yeah 23:25:02 i think i'll do it, then 23:25:13 i mean start soon 23:25:30 maybe even the mandelbrot program will be understandable then... 23:25:56 don't think so.. :p 23:26:19 nah, you're probably right 23:26:28 naturally the program won't be able to do anything intelligent like keep [>+<-] on one line or so 23:26:38 it would, too bad, break that on several lines 23:27:07 I take you are writing it in BF then? 23:27:12 naturally 23:27:16 ;) 23:27:22 i thought i said that somewhere 23:27:27 maybe 23:27:39 no i didn't :) 23:27:52 well, i forgot to say that i'm writing it in bf 23:28:33 btw, could you run ls -l /lib/libc.so.* on your linux box, and see which libc-version you get? 23:28:36 kipple: your language is insane 23:28:43 WHAT??? 23:28:51 why? 23:28:54 programming language 23:29:01 yeah, I understood that 23:29:08 :) 23:29:17 i don't know what to read there 23:29:21 i JUST want to divide 2 numbers.. it's 10x as hard as with bf 23:29:28 it is? 23:29:32 it is. 23:29:45 bf: [-->+<] ;) 23:29:54 oh wait 23:30:00 i didn't read properly 23:30:11 i read it 'divide number with two' 23:30:22 x] 23:31:24 well, the next version of Kipple will allow code modules, so then you can write a division stack once, and then reuse it... 23:31:27 ok until a is 0 i subtract 1 from a and b 23:32:06 i don't have to divide just check if 2 values are dividable.. (modulo)