00:38:49 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:39:17 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:50:12 calamari: there is a problem with a site that is hosted by one person (like yourself) 00:50:37 if you get run over by a bus, or stops updating for some reason, the site is lost 00:51:06 that's where wikipedia and wikicities are (hopefully) more safe 00:51:56 wikipedia is bad, because we're breaking the rules there (no original research) 00:52:10 yes. hence wikicities may be a good alternative 00:53:41 unless advertising runs out, then *poof* it's gone :) 00:53:44 yes 00:53:48 nothing is 100% 00:54:09 but it doesn't look like those independent wiki's manage to get much content 00:55:14 I mostly offered because it seemed like there was a lot of talk but no actiob 00:55:27 yes. and it is a good offer 00:56:26 we should go with what most people prefer (if we can get people to say that) 00:56:58 what about esoeric.sange.fi? That'd get my vote.. I wish I could remember the guys name 00:57:10 he's been running the bf archive for ages 00:57:35 and it's his own machine.. so it's not likely to be taken down 00:57:57 Unless Esoteric programming is deemed illegal and army troopers storm his home and destroy it. 00:58:03 same as with yours: dependent on one person 00:58:14 I'd trust him over wikicities, to be honest 00:58:19 maybe 00:58:27 I've never even heard of wikicities before 00:58:30 It's even older than wikipedia, yes? 00:58:37 maybe we could come up with a mirroring system of our own wiki 00:59:09 mirroring sounds good.. there has to be a way,.. there are hundreds of wikipedia ripoff sites out there 00:59:49 probably some Java program that crawls the wiki and grabs the sources 01:00:00 if we could have two or three mirrors of the same wiki we should be safe 01:01:00 ideally, they should be synchronized so that you could update in any one, at it would get propagated... not sure if such software exist 01:01:31 I think the best we could hope for are daily or maybe hourly automated updates 01:01:40 Subversion + cron job 01:02:14 as for the discussion earlier about the ų character, yes it is norwegian/danish. 01:02:15 I think if everyone used the same software setup, it could be a fairly simple job of archiving a directory and sending it out 01:02:32 it is a vowel pronounced as in duh or burn 01:02:33 no Java crawling required :) 01:02:33 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:02:43 * GregorR considers writing something. 01:03:22 kipple: I think the mirroring idea is the best yet 01:03:23 What wiki software is it based on? 01:03:39 GregorR: MoinMoin seems like a winner, to me 01:03:41 There's no reason who an edit couldn't prompt a cascade with the proper modifications. 01:03:42 I would prefer the one wikipedia uses 01:03:58 What formats to they store in? 01:04:03 no idea 01:04:13 MoinMoin doesn't require a database.. which is nice 01:04:14 Flat file would be handy. 01:04:30 * GregorR begins leaning toward MoinMoin ;) 01:04:54 If there was just an ssh server on the required boxes, files could be scp'd in on edit. 01:05:03 Updates would cascade instantly. 01:05:07 I dislike the wikis that can't have spaces in the links. but maybe that's just me 01:05:38 Does MoinMoin allow HTML? 01:06:46 I'm going to make some modifications to MoinMoin and see what I come up with. 01:07:54 * GregorR balks. 01:07:57 MoinMoin is Python. 01:08:02 Gregor doesn't do Python. 01:08:42 I do Python 01:08:52 you can use spaces, actually 01:09:04 you just use quotation marks 01:09:37 ah. that's nice. 01:09:45 well, you're right.. the link dont have spaces, but the user doesn't know 01:10:20 I personally like "Wiki!" 01:10:25 It's very simple. 01:10:52 if MoinMoin is just flat files, it should be easy to sync, I think 01:11:01 GregorR: I tried one of those simple ones and it performed very badly.. php wiki or something.. remember that one? 01:11:20 Wiki! is flat-file, simple, nice in my opinion. 01:11:24 http://wiki.sf.net/ 01:11:28 Not a very good home page :P 01:11:37 GregorR: link to a Wiki! wiki ? 01:11:45 http://www.codu.org/odikeh/ 01:11:52 It's very non-intrusive, there's a list of links at the bottom. 01:12:18 That one requires logins, actually. 01:12:23 That example that is. 01:12:26 eeew! 01:12:28 But it can be set either way. 01:13:00 not crazy about that look.. sorry 01:13:06 me neither 01:14:16 One could apply their own template. 01:14:36 kipple: just looked because I was curious about MoinMoin.. it stores the pages in a directory tree 01:14:37 By modifying the code to their liking. 01:15:02 so it'd be a simple tar and send operation 01:15:57 isn't thats what rsync is for? 01:16:03 It wouldn't be good to tar the enti---I was about to say that X-D 01:16:06 kipple wins :P 01:16:36 never heard of it :) checks man rsync 01:18:19 the problem is if the two wikis are both updated differently. Then you would lose the changes in one when you sync. Is there an easy way to fix that? 01:18:52 one solution is, of course to just have one that can be edited, and use the rest as pure backups 01:20:28 stupid question time.. how does rysn connect without a password? 01:20:34 rsync rather 01:21:28 If the "I'm-being-edited" cookie was stored in a file. 01:21:33 calamari_: SSH keys 01:21:38 calamari_: Rsync can go via SSH 01:22:07 aha.. (looking at man pages) 01:22:25 Oh, "Wiki!" is even more templatable than I thought. 01:22:26 there is rsync -u .. update only.. do not overwirte newer files 01:22:41 It has a template.html page that has $title, $node and $bar. Just put those in and it works with any template. 01:22:47 but that would leave the two different 01:23:04 kipple: if it were one-way yes 01:23:17 hrm actually, that'll never work.. clocks are always different 01:26:10 kipple: what if when on a mirror they click edit, it actually redirects to the "main" site and edits there instead? 01:26:22 yes 01:26:36 but then, why not redirect to the main site the moment you enter the mirror 01:26:48 because if the main site goes down you lose the content 01:27:04 this way, you'd just lose the ability to edit 01:27:05 calamari_: I like your idea - edit redirecting that is. 01:27:09 not if it is mirrored every hours or so 01:27:17 We need to update instantly. 01:28:12 how about htis: if you edit a mirror, it is also submitted immediately to the main site 01:28:24 Locking was the problem. 01:28:31 Wasn't it? 01:28:37 was it? 01:28:43 I guess not X-D 01:29:11 OK, so, remote sites have cron jobs to download every hour, and when a page is edited it is always uploaded to the main site, yes? 01:29:27 I think that could work 01:29:51 but there are of course some locking issues 01:29:59 Most wikis don't lock anyway *shrugs* 01:30:23 If we saved a revision history, things could be restored. 01:30:27 (On request) 01:31:00 gotta grab some food. brb 01:35:32 OK, here's my thoughts ... 01:35:48 The main wiki has a list of subwikis, 01:35:54 The subwikis know what the main wiki is... 01:35:59 So the subwikis all have a cron job, 01:36:20 Plus a setuid-whoever program that sends a file UP to the main wiki. 01:36:30 The Wiki software just acts like normal, 01:36:41 But upon an edit, calls that setuid-whoever program. 01:37:08 Of course, everybody would have to know the main wiki's SSH public key 01:37:32 Vice-versa rather ... 01:37:39 not a problem.. we could have an information wiki page on how to add a new node to the wiki 01:37:39 The main wiki would have to know everybody's public keys. 01:37:45 oic 01:37:56 Even that could be automated, really. 01:38:06 But seems unsafe. 01:38:12 I guess since it's a wiki, it's irrelevant. 01:38:17 hehe 01:38:48 Anybody mind giving me an account somewhere so I can set something up as a test? 01:39:12 my web server is nor functional currently :( 01:39:29 Is that a problem? X-D 01:39:37 GregorR: I'm using a shell provider.. sorry 01:39:45 I could set you up on my local box 01:39:45 if you want an account it is.... 01:39:45 Oh, btw, I have another retort on Python: While most web servers support PHP, most do not support Python ;) 01:40:06 I just need an ssh account somewhere. 01:40:06 good point 01:40:16 I don't even really need web access. 01:40:24 I just don't have a spare box lying around. 01:40:57 * GregorR remembers his laptop. 01:41:01 OK, me-su stupid. 01:42:00 GregorR: that's good, because my connection cuts out every 4 hours :) 01:44:51 bbl 01:45:02 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 01:57:55 hi 01:58:15 just read the backlog 01:59:22 so, what's your take on this wiki business? 01:59:28 I personally like the MoinMoin idea 01:59:52 * GregorR sits in his corner, alone as the only supporter of "Wiki!" 02:00:09 :) 02:02:35 I don't like the idea of sending an edit to another server 02:02:53 I prefer a main server and non-editable mirrors 02:03:06 yeah, I think I do as well 02:03:15 If that's agreed, then I'm done X-D 02:03:23 An rsync every hour and that's it. 02:03:30 yep 02:03:34 perhaps not that often 02:03:37 that makes perfect sense 02:03:44 Anyway, I've got to go eat home-made chicken soup. It's a terrible life. Bye 8-D 02:03:51 once or twice a day would be enough 02:03:58 later, GregorR 02:04:08 that could be left to each mirrorer to decide 02:04:14 bon apetit, greg 02:04:37 I'd say once a day is more than enough 02:05:03 the mirror should be able to be switched to a main server, just for the case the main one fails 02:06:51 a notification in the ML may be enough for the mirrors to start mirroring another server 02:07:14 that could be done manually. it's not something that should happen often 02:07:31 ML = mailing list 02:07:37 i.e. manually :) 02:07:38 ah, yes 02:11:09 the list has been pretty dead recently though 02:11:29 lack of traffic does not imply lack of people (I hope) 02:11:54 the IRC was apparently also quite dead until GregorR and I joined 02:12:18 possibly. I pretty new here myself 02:13:14 that's the impression I got from Keymaker's words 02:13:58 well, it does look like the four of us do most of the talking here nowadays... 02:14:46 don't think that just because i don't talk much, that i'm not actively lurking :) 02:15:02 hehe. good to know 02:15:06 oh hi cpressey 02:15:10 hi 02:15:19 I wanted to ask you about two things 02:15:27 k 02:15:42 one is OOPS, any reference apart from the mention in your old page? Google didn't help 02:16:31 ? ... hmm. no. i think it was briefly sketched in a message to the (old) mailing list. but iirc it was not a fully formed idea 02:16:42 i don't remember whose idea it was, either 02:16:48 oh, ok, thanks 02:17:04 iirc the objective was an object-oriented tarpit... 02:17:11 the other is rube2; the wayback machine doesn't hold the archive and all I was able to get was a version for Atari ST 02:17:18 heh 02:17:39 rube is an idea of yours, right? 02:17:44 that's interesting... i still have it somewhere, i guess i didn't put it back on my site after i recovered it from that disk crash 02:18:06 the original RUBE was mine, yes.... RUBE II was john c's slight change + implementation 02:18:20 that was my impression, thanks 02:18:31 so are you going to put it back online? 02:18:31 (the original had a really _awful_ implementation... rube ii's code is much better) 02:18:40 i can see if i can dig it out, but it might take a while 02:18:49 thank you so much 02:18:53 np 02:18:59 i should also maybe put illgol back up :) 02:19:11 and thank you for initiating me in this esoteric world! :) 02:19:34 ha! 02:19:58 yes, to reach the next level, you must stay locked in a mailbox overnight while we all sing sea shanties at you. 02:20:27 hehe 02:20:31 then you get a nifty apron and... oh, no! i've already said too much! 02:20:34 :) 02:21:02 on the subject of wikis... 02:21:29 hm? 02:21:43 i pretty much agree that wikipedia shouldn't be playing host to each and every esolang. 02:21:53 but i don't know where to draw the line either. 02:22:10 as for having a "satellite"... i'm not convinced that a wiki is the best tool for the job... 02:22:19 there used to be something called the Esoteric Language Database 02:22:30 which was renamed to the Stupid Languages Database 02:22:38 which is (afaik) now gone 02:22:40 yes, but why not use a wiki for it? 02:22:44 encyclopedia of stipid languages? yes it's gone 02:22:50 stipid -> stupid 02:23:00 it is important that it is easy for several people to edit 02:23:01 well, why not use a "forge" for it, like luaforge or rubyforge? 02:23:13 the wiki aspect is useful, yes 02:23:15 don't know about that 02:23:21 but these are also (generally speaking) projects 02:23:33 code/document development 02:23:41 it would be sweet if there was a tool that combined both 02:23:49 in fact i think there is, but i forget what it's called 02:24:14 i mean, i don't really know 02:24:17 I was also considering Subversion; the problem is that the editor has to modify the HTML code directly, no quick-and-easy markup 02:24:27 i'm not sure if i'd use it, but i thought i'd toss the idea out there 02:24:39 yeah. 02:24:53 I don't know if that "forge" thing is similar to a version control system 02:25:22 plus, the problem (i guess) if you have publically changeable code, is that it's very easy to slip in exploits unnoticed 02:25:46 yeah, the "forge" software, whatever it is, is like sourceforge's site. i think it can use cvs or svn for version control 02:26:08 but it is more project-oriented than reference-oriented. 02:26:11 oh I understand 02:26:25 personally, it is the reference part I'm most interested in 02:28:43 I don't get what you mean by reference here 02:29:11 well, "looking things up" is what i meant by it :) 02:29:24 oh k 02:30:39 the idea is not like cooperative project development; it's more like hosting each personal project's description and files, pretty much like what cat's eye is currently hosting 02:31:57 as long as a wiki is able to host files, I think it's good enough 02:32:34 me too 02:33:16 fwiw, apparently this is what i was thinking of --> http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/ 02:35:44 at any rate, i'm not pushing the idea. any sort of resource would be great, obviously. 02:36:04 the main problem is long-term reliability :) 02:36:12 pretty interesting for community development, indeed 02:36:56 hm, so maybe the mirroring is an important feature... 02:37:26 yes, that's the whole point of mirroring 02:44:15 kipple: is rune.krokodille.com yours? 02:44:20 yes 02:44:36 but it's down 02:45:01 I see, thanks 02:47:51 your welcome. Why, btw? 02:49:06 I followed the link from the wikipedia and it failed, I just wanted to be sure it was your site to get an idea on how it would work again (about a week, you said a few days ago) 02:49:22 how -> when 02:49:24 ah well. not so sure now. 02:49:41 oh 02:49:53 the root partition seems to have lost some files. can't boot. 02:50:04 don't know how much else is lost 02:50:15 maybe I'll have time to look into it next week 02:50:35 I'm not a linux expert, so it may take some time 02:51:52 from a brief googling, it doesn't look like there is any ready-made solution for a synchronized multi-host wiki. there's some discussion of mirroring wiki content (one-way), but that's not nearly as useful... 02:53:08 oh, sorry kipple 02:53:46 cpressey: regular non-editable mirrors sound OK to me 02:54:06 yeah. the mirrors doesn't have to be editable 02:54:32 anyway, it's 4am here. Good night :) 02:54:41 nite kipple 02:56:54 gnight kipple 02:57:23 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 02:58:01 the thing is, if the person running the editable wiki decides to stop (for whatever reason)... well, as long as there's a way to choose which of the mirrors gets to be the "next" editable one, i suppose that works 02:58:20 and all the other mirrors update to mirror from it 02:58:32 that was the idea 02:58:38 that's cool. 02:59:45 anyway, i have to eat now :) ttyl (and i'll try to get rube ii up this evening) 03:00:36 bon appetit and thank you very much 03:01:03 I'm going to sleep as well (I'm on the same time zone as kipple) 03:11:32 LADEEDADA 8-D 03:48:38 ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/ 03:56:42 lol, Rube = awesome 03:58:30 * GregorR goes to play "The Incredible Machine" :P 03:58:37 thx :) 03:58:50 * cpressey should probably work in curses support.... someday...... 04:33:56 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 04:39:10 hmm 04:39:51 moin moin's a bit icky to work with - one of my uni courses uses it for notes 04:48:37 incidentally, see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job) 05:26:25 Using wget would cause a massive redownload every backup, no? 05:31:06 not terribly massive - just the curr table 05:31:16 (as in, current versions of every page, not the whole history) 05:31:32 but it's not incremental, if that's what you mean 05:32:56 though a diff-based update would be kinda nice 05:33:24 Hence rsync 05:33:55 But lemme take a look at that page. 05:34:48 I've got it all set up for "Wiki!" 05:34:52 But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P 07:43:33 Here we go :) 07:43:55 Gregor's customized version of "Wiki!" supports guest posting and file uploads, and titles with spaces in them (which was supported anyway) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:42 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:03:53 -!- lindi- has joined. 08:06:38 Hmm 08:06:42 Where's the big explosion? 08:08:55 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:10:42 -!- lament has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:10:42 -!- GregorR has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:11:14 -!- lament has joined. 08:11:29 -!- mickoko has joined. 08:11:37 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:11:55 -!- mickoko has left (?). 10:21:57 -!- clog has joined. 10:21:57 -!- clog has joined. 10:24:11 -!- mtve has joined. 11:32:41 -!- KnX has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:59:21 -!- stefan60 has joined. 12:00:54 -!- stefan60 has left (?). 12:57:26 hi 12:57:55 But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P 13:00:46 GregorR: from my point of view, the question is not to like or not to like; just MoinMoin is already set up and running in calamari's server, and if there's a compelling reason to make the effort of changing I'm for it 13:01:22 ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/ 13:01:52 thank you very much, cpressey! 13:02:16 rube is sooooo coooool :) 13:09:41 you know, I thought that the name came instead from Sierra's Space Quest II adventure where there's a toy called Cubix Rube 13:42:32 -!- kipple has joined. 14:01:55 hm, this rube2 thing is much harder to get working than rube 15:19:07 does MoinMoin only save the last two revisions? When I click show changes in the EsoWiki, only the last two are available... 15:43:26 -!- comet_11 has joined. 15:47:57 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:48:41 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 16:17:53 -!- CXI has changed nick to Pope_CXI. 16:19:55 -!- Pope_CXI has changed nick to CXI. 16:35:08 kipple: click on "Get Info" 16:35:54 ah. thanks 18:54:41 So, how much information are we supposed to put on the Wiki? I suppose the full spec and everything, so that if eso.codu.org (as an example) fell out of existance, it would be there? 19:09:11 Hmm ... how do you make MoinMoin show 2L code without trying to be all wiki-i with it... 19:13:28 don't know. I assume it has some tags for such things 19:15:49 have you tried {{{ }}} ? 19:16:27 I figured that out after a bit. 19:16:29 That worked. 21:19:03 -!- andreou has joined. 21:19:51 -!- andreou has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/. 21:38:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:38:45 * GregorR-L eats babies. 21:39:01 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 21:41:34 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:53:23 -!- ngtr has joined. 21:57:11 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:57:26 Why is my alter ego joining magically? :P 22:18:15 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:20:21 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:20:47 creepy... :) 22:20:48 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:21:53 That's pretty strange. 22:22:22 do you have another machine that's logged in? 22:22:44 Yeah 22:22:48 And off ... and in ... 23:03:50 -!- ngtr has changed nick to andreou. 23:29:04 -!- kipple_ has joined. 23:29:04 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:42:06 -!- andreou has quit ("~").