โ†2005-05-20 2005-05-21 2005-05-22โ†’ โ†‘2005 โ†‘all
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09:19:35 <CXI> hey
09:19:50 <pgimeno> hi
09:21:59 <CXI> funny story, actually - I edit wikipedia and I saw an entry on 2L, and went googling to see whether it actually existed or was just someone's project
09:22:25 <pgimeno> what's the difference?
09:23:10 <CXI> well, generally if it has any presence outside wikipedia it's a real topic
09:23:32 <CXI> but that really depends on the people in question and what they consider a presence
09:23:53 <pgimeno> yeah
09:24:25 <CXI> I find it hard to decide sometimes... 2L looked kind of interesting so I figured it'd be better to leave it there
09:24:48 <pgimeno> well, we've discussed about the presence of esoteric languages in there
09:24:54 <pgimeno> (in wikipedia)
09:25:31 <CXI> there are so many languages that can be described as "bf with huffman encoding, bf with a lookup table, bf with a lookup table and amusing names, bf with forking, bf with socket support, bf with a second buffer"
09:26:10 <pgimeno> we're all for maintaining them but mainly because that's a way that they don't get lost in time; we agree that that's not the correct place
09:26:23 <CXI> yeah, it's a tough choice
09:26:56 <pgimeno> the author of the 2L language is GregorR, but I think he's asleep right now
09:27:12 <CXI> yeah, I actually joined here because I read about it
09:27:19 <pgimeno> as for web presence: http://eso.codu.org/
09:27:19 <CXI> the log, I mean
09:27:23 <pgimeno> oh, I see
09:28:52 <CXI> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/fibonacci.ork <--- haha, I like that
09:29:05 <pgimeno> yes, ORK is an amazing language
09:30:00 <pgimeno> after properly examined, 2L does not contribute so much as ORK to the esoteric languages world
09:30:32 <pgimeno> it's a 2D language and there are 2D languages; it's a BF variation and there are lots of BF variations
09:30:32 <CXI> and funnily enough there's no wikipedia article on ork
09:30:49 <pgimeno> I know, it's more recent and it's not finished
09:30:49 <CXI> PATH/SNUSP etc
09:31:01 <pgimeno> PATH/SNUSP?
09:31:12 <CXI> the canonical 2d BFs
09:31:20 <pgimeno> oh, yeah
09:32:00 <pgimeno> furthermore, it attempts to be extremely minimalistic and there are more extremely minimalistic ones
09:32:12 <pgimeno> didn't know SNUSP, btw
09:33:30 <pgimeno> well, we're making some efforts towards finding a place where esolangs can be preserved
09:34:50 <CXI> not sure if it's any help, but wikimedia has a project called wikicities
09:35:17 <pgimeno> I think it's at the very least very good news :)
09:35:58 <pgimeno> I'll visit wikicities to see if that fits our purpose
09:37:03 <pgimeno> could you please give a link? I'm not familiarized with how wikimedia is structured
09:37:22 <pgimeno> oops, google helped
09:37:24 <pgimeno> sorry
09:38:10 <CXI> sorry - was off eating pretzels
09:38:17 <pgimeno> np
09:38:33 <lament> a dangerous activity
09:38:39 <pgimeno> hehe
09:38:40 <CXI> only for presidents
09:40:50 <pgimeno> could you give a very quick primer about the policies of wikicities, before I read everything thoroughly? is the content to be FDL-licensed?
09:41:29 <CXI> yeah
09:41:52 <CXI> basically it just says "it needs to be free and open - free license, freely editable, run as a community project"
09:42:36 <pgimeno> about everything related to esolangs fits that
09:42:38 <lament> sounds perfect
09:42:59 <lament> it would be so awesome to gather everything in one place
09:43:40 <pgimeno> hm, in a quick glance I see it's ad-supported
09:46:08 <CXI> *nod* google ads
09:46:21 <pgimeno> "Wikicities will never host pop-up adverts." - sounds reasonable
10:48:54 -!- CXI has changed nick to CXI-gonJinn.
10:51:09 -!- CXI-gonJinn has changed nick to CXI.
10:56:12 <CXI> (also means you can copy/paste all wikipedia's information on esolangs)
10:58:37 <pgimeno> what about files? is it possible to host files?
10:58:51 <CXI> yeah
11:04:55 <pgimeno> "Wikis must have a large potential audience, and be likely to attract enough editors to maintain the wiki over a long period of time. Personal wikis, wikis for small groups, or individual schools are not generally permitted."
11:05:34 <CXI> all that's trying to do is discourage wikis for small clubs
11:05:43 <pgimeno> I'm not sure we'll gather enough editors... the esolang community is not very wide
11:06:23 <CXI> I'm sure when they see it they'll say "fantastic! somewhere for all the esolang stuff on wikipedia to go!"
11:07:50 <pgimeno> yeah, but maintaining it is another issue
11:08:39 <CXI> *shrug* well they'll either say yes or no - my guess is yes
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12:20:48 <kipple> hmm. this wikicity concept looks promising
13:41:55 <CXI> it's strange, actually, it's never really had any exposure
13:43:03 <CXI> I suppose they're assuming it will just gain popularity through word of mouth
13:43:26 <kipple> possibly. Who's behind it? is it associated with wikipedia?
13:43:33 <CXI> yeah
13:43:38 <CXI> basicaly it's just a wikimedia project
13:44:06 <CXI> (except because wikimedia is non-profit and this is an ad-supported service they rolled out another essentially identical company for it)
13:45:17 <kipple> the question is: what happens if it doesn't pay off? does it get closed down...
13:46:14 <CXI> well, depends what you mean by "pay off", considering it's probably a thousandth the size of english wikipedia, keeping it running is trivial
13:46:46 <kipple> yeah. and if it grows, it will pay off, hopefullly...
13:46:52 <CXI> *nod* exactly
13:47:05 <CXI> mainly I don't even really think paying off is what it's about
13:47:11 <CXI> one of the big issues in wikipedia is scope
13:47:52 <CXI> there are sort-of factions, one extreme is that wikipedia isn't a paper encyclopedia, and consequently we may as well try to gather *all* information
13:48:41 <CXI> and the other extreme says that wikipedia shouldn't accept articles from any topics that aren't considered 'encyclopedic'
13:48:48 <CXI> s/from/on/, sorry
13:49:02 <CXI> so, like, no articles on schools, or towns
13:49:32 <CXI> in reality most people lie somewhere in between, but it's a tough call because most of us hate throwing away information if it looks like it might be useful
13:49:47 <kipple> yeah.
13:50:26 <kipple> there have been some problems with people deleting esoteric programming articles already
13:52:03 <CXI> well, 'problem' depends on your perspective
13:52:11 <kipple> true
13:52:18 <CXI> I actually think a lot of the esolangs don't belong there
13:52:46 <CXI> I think I mentioned somewhere above that there are about 10 of them that are just "BF + neat feature" or "BF - neat feature" and don't actually exist at all except for their wikipedia entry
13:52:48 <kipple> I partially agree
13:53:38 <CXI> but that's the encyclopedia me talking
13:53:59 <CXI> the "all information is sacred" me wants to put all those useless languages somewhere just in case someone is interested someday
13:54:12 <kipple> someone is today
13:54:14 <kipple> but not many
13:56:42 <kipple> I'm all for starting a wikicity.
13:58:03 <kipple> however, then we could get the problem that some people use the wikipedia, and some use the city
13:58:37 <pgimeno> I'm actually for giving the alternatives in the list and see what's the general opinion
13:59:00 <kipple> you mean the mailing list?
13:59:03 <CXI> well, in reality anything written in the wikipedia can just be copy/pasted over
13:59:05 <CXI> and vice versa
13:59:17 <kipple> yeah, but that takes a lot of work
13:59:21 <pgimeno> I'm not concerned about the wikipedia vs city; once the city is up, the languages don't need to be in the wikipedia
13:59:39 <kipple> the most important ones should, IMHO
13:59:47 <CXI> but you're right, it'd be tough drawing a line and saying "if your language is this popular put it in wikipedia, otherwise the city"
14:00:14 <kipple> I'd say if the language is yours, then put it in the city
14:00:31 <CXI> actually, yeah, that sounds like a good rule
14:00:32 <kipple> if it is BF, INTERCAL or BeFunge then it can stay
14:00:34 <pgimeno> there are a few that are universally accepted, like brainfuck and intercal
14:00:37 <pgimeno> heh
14:00:56 <kipple> maybe whitespace
14:01:02 <pgimeno> yeah, BeFunge too
14:01:19 <pgimeno> hm, whitespace is more like a humorous language
14:01:32 <pgimeno> Unlambda suits there better
14:01:34 <kipple> yes, but it is one of the more known
14:01:40 <CXI> whitespace is pretty well known
14:01:48 <kipple> because of the slashdot thing
14:01:57 <CXI> yeah
14:02:02 <CXI> a lot of the articles on popular languages aren't really under contention
14:02:11 <CXI> it's just things like 2L that are worrying
14:02:20 <CXI> when someone posts their new idea for a language on wikipedia
14:03:03 <kipple> I've done that.....
14:03:16 <kipple> and I agree, it's not the best solution
14:06:24 <kipple> but the way it is now, I think it is the right way to do it. It's not like 2L is less interesting than most of the other esolangs in wikipedia
14:06:41 <CXI> well, the problem is that it's less notable
14:06:58 <kipple> I disagree
14:07:07 <CXI> wikipedia isn't really the place to put new ideas, it's a repository for things that already exist
14:07:29 <CXI> (which is to say, that's the viewpoint of most of the other editors, and that's why a new esolang article is likely to be deleted)
14:07:39 <kipple> so, how long does it have to have existed before it can be put there?
14:08:16 <CXI> it's not really a time thing - notability's a pretty ephemeral concept
14:08:50 <pgimeno> well, to me it's a question of whether people which see the language/article somewhere else are able to find a reference in the wikipedia
14:09:24 <CXI> a general guideline is that people shouldn't write articles about their own projects
14:10:39 <pgimeno> I didn't know about the popularity of Whitespace; before I knew, I thought that it wasn't worth the inclusion
14:10:52 <pgimeno> but if many people expect to find it, that's a change
14:11:17 <pgimeno> that's my point of view, of course
14:12:27 <kipple> Whitespace became quite known last year, so it's kind of a piece of internet history
14:13:12 <pgimeno> well, that's what makes the difference somehow
14:13:56 <kipple> The main esolang article lists the following as "notable": Befunge, Brainfuck, False, INTERCAL, Malbolge, Shakespeare, Unlambda and Whitespace
14:14:21 <kipple> not sure about false and shakespeare, but the rest I agree with
14:15:27 <pgimeno> I agree with you; I don't know about False and Shakespeare either
14:15:50 <pgimeno> I'd perhaps include Thue because of its innovative paradigm but that's probably me
14:16:02 <CXI> I've heard of both but can't actually remember what False does
14:17:27 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_programming_language
14:17:43 <pgimeno> probably the most notable thing about it is that it inspired some others (it's from 1993)
14:19:07 <kipple> Var'aq is probably also worth keeping in the pedia
14:20:54 <pgimeno> yes, probably
14:21:19 <pgimeno> off to lunch, bbl
14:21:19 <kipple> though it doesn't really fit in with the rest...
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18:51:02 <GregorR> Hmm
18:51:09 <GregorR> Apparently I missed a very interesting conversation.
18:51:57 <pgimeno> hi GregorR
18:52:27 <GregorR> So.
18:52:34 <GregorR> *cough*
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21:32:52 <Keymaker> hhm
21:33:07 <GregorR> Is that a new esoteric programming language?
21:33:13 <Keymaker> no
21:33:18 <Keymaker> wait, i was just about to write :)
21:33:18 <GregorR> :P
21:33:56 <pgimeno> hi Keymaker
21:34:03 <Keymaker> languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda
21:34:05 <Keymaker> hi
21:34:15 <Keymaker> but i prefer it they all stay there
21:34:24 <Keymaker> oh, and naturally kipple as well :)
21:35:50 <pgimeno> I agree with all you mention (I miss Intercal)
21:36:15 <GregorR> What program should I OBLISK-ize for the proletization of OBLISK today :P
21:39:15 <Keymaker> aaaargh
21:39:42 <Keymaker> some global notice tells that there's going to be a major downtime in about 11 hours
21:39:50 <pgimeno> yep
21:40:16 <pgimeno> a previous wallop told that it's going to be about 15 mins long
21:40:16 <GregorR> Mmhmm
21:40:54 * Keymaker goes to break in the nearest store, takes all the food that can carry, goes to bomb shelter, puts on the gas mask.
21:41:18 * GregorR cries himself to sleep.
21:41:23 <Keymaker> :D
21:42:14 <Keymaker> i have a feeling that most of people won't even notice the major downtime.. ;)
21:42:46 <GregorR> I'll be committing ritualistic suicide.
21:42:53 <Keymaker> :)
21:42:58 <GregorR> Then reviving myself by magic.
21:43:08 <Keymaker> i see
21:43:23 <pgimeno> hehe
21:44:04 <Keymaker> test: ๘๘๘๘
21:44:10 <Keymaker> what is this '๘' character?
21:44:22 <pgimeno> like an o with a /
21:44:28 <GregorR> Zero-with-a-line-through-it-like-I-draw-it?
21:44:34 <Keymaker> yes..
21:44:42 <Keymaker> but what it is?
21:44:58 <GregorR> Not quite Phi...
21:45:17 <pgimeno> isn't it a norwegian character?
21:45:25 <Keymaker> hmm
21:45:27 <Keymaker> looks so
21:45:29 <Keymaker> iirc
21:45:38 <Keymaker> kippleee?
21:45:44 <Keymaker> :)
21:45:51 <Keymaker> it was from false manual
21:46:29 <Keymaker> for once a detailed esoteric language manual..
21:46:37 <Keymaker> (still too lazy to try it)
21:48:48 <GregorR> Mayhaps their should be an ORK page on Wikipedia.
21:48:51 <GregorR> But I'm not writing it :P
21:48:58 <Keymaker> :)
21:49:13 <Keymaker> i don't understand it so i can't do it :p
21:49:19 <GregorR> XD
21:52:57 <pgimeno> hum, the false doc is a txt file, the encoding might be CP-437 instead of ISO-8859
21:54:03 <pgimeno> oh, being for Amiga I think it's ISO
22:05:54 <Keymaker> hm
22:06:14 <Keymaker> i'm trying to invent some esolang. again.
22:10:26 <calamari> pgimeno: I'm more than happy to permanently host http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/
22:11:37 <calamari> kidsquid.com is my domain, so even if I change shell providers (unlikely), the name can be permanent. If you'd like a different name than esowiki, I can easily change it
22:12:43 <calamari> was there a different reason that you were looking into wikicities?
22:33:32 <pgimeno> calamari, I'm going to make a list of the options in the list with the pros and cons
22:35:30 <pgimeno> yours is one, Wikicities is another and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page is another
22:36:03 <pgimeno> (the latter was apparently mentioned in the list before I joined it)
22:36:55 <pgimeno> and I'd also include for consideration a non-wiki web (a wiki needs a maintainer which at the very least can deal with vandalism)
22:37:33 <pgimeno> are you subscribed to the mailing list?
22:37:46 <calamari> I'm subscribed to lang and misc
22:37:54 <calamari> and friends-of-bf
22:38:24 <pgimeno> lang is the one I'm subscribed to
22:38:48 <calamari> pgimeno: wiki vandalism is easy to control because any change can be reverted
22:39:02 <calamari> I need to use the phone.. bbl
22:39:18 <pgimeno> and I need to have dinner
22:39:20 <pgimeno> later
22:39:23 <Keymaker> bye
22:39:35 <Keymaker> and i need to go to sleep, i'm tired already
22:39:55 <Keymaker> bbll (be back lot later)
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22:46:41 <calamari_> re's
22:47:26 <calamari_> even better than my site would be esoteric.sange.fi, if he's willing
22:47:48 <calamari_> he's already been running the bf repository for years
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โ†2005-05-20 2005-05-21 2005-05-22โ†’ โ†‘2005 โ†‘all