00:08:05 I find it hard to believe that Bitxtreme is turing complete ;) 00:08:39 I find it hard to even understand how it is supposed to work.... :) 00:12:34 so, how did the ORK Kipple interpreter go? any progress? 00:14:22 Still working on it. 00:14:26 It reads it in, but has issues parsing. 00:14:33 so, it is doable? 00:14:38 Certainly. 00:14:43 ORK is powerful. 00:14:50 Powerful and unbelievably, mind-blowingly stupid. 00:15:50 Besides ... hypothetically, any turing complete language COULD interpret kipple (with much pain), and ORK is turing complete... 00:16:22 yes, I didn't ask if it was *possible*. only if it was doable 00:16:50 that is, not extremely hard... :) 00:17:50 so, do you intperpret the source directly, or tokenize? 00:18:07 Tokenize. 00:18:28 I'm getting chunks with meanings, then walking through and interpreting the ones that are command chunks. 00:34:20 Based on bitxtreme, I present unitxtreme: 00:34:27 It works just the same but the bits are unary. 00:34:42 So you can only have one command, and it can only have one value. 00:34:49 There is only one register and only one memory location. 00:35:10 The command is 0, and it sets the value of the current memory location to 0. 00:36:13 :) 00:43:01 the ork compiler doesn't handle Windows EOLs 00:43:15 not much of a problem, but I thought you should know 00:43:41 Am I expected to care if it works on Windows? 00:43:45 ;) 00:43:59 as I said, no big deal 00:44:09 Hmm, I thought cin was set to some sort of translation mode normally >_> 00:44:19 Mayhaps I'll fix that sometime. 01:15:11 is ORK case sensitive? 01:17:04 It wouldn't be unnecessarily grammatically correct if it wasn't 8-D 01:17:40 Read: Yes it is. 01:18:49 Right now the compiler lets you get away with some things that it ought not, but it does insist upon proper capitalization. 01:38:21 when I pass an object as an arg to a function, how do I reference the objects variables? 01:50:55 I never put that in the spec, did I? 01:50:58 Wowsa. 01:51:20 If it was a foo that had a bar which was a number: 01:51:34 a is the foo's bar. 01:51:40 Hmm, does that work? 01:51:53 Actually, I think that might be screwed up ... 01:52:45 Yukksi. 01:52:53 doesn't seem to work 01:53:06 OK, I'm going to fix that and post a new version some time tonight 8-D 01:53:10 But that's how it should work. 01:53:14 ok 01:53:59 gotta go to bed anyways. 01:54:07 good night 01:54:09 Heh 01:54:10 Bye 02:27:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:44:27 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:49:53 -!- Keymaker has joined. 04:51:06 pgimeno: cool language! 04:51:27 you should probably change '(FIXME: work on the description)' to something, though 04:51:36 i don't yet see very well how it works 04:51:40 but i wanna get coding!!!!!!!!!! 04:51:49 1 bit memory size is really cool 04:52:01 i've planned making a brainfuck variation with that 04:52:08 although it's done couple of times already 04:52:19 but i want to make programs for that kind of memory cell range 04:52:43 maybe you could make some simple sample program there, for example how to print 'Hi' ? 04:56:49 and how to do loops? i need more info! 05:01:49 -!- calamari has joined. 05:04:29 pgimeno: Am I confused, or is there a maximum of two instructions, and hence it's impossible to do anything useful. 05:04:35 (This being because the program pointer is a bit) 05:14:01 probably there is array of those bits 05:14:03 dunno 05:14:16 at least i can see no other way this being turing-complete 05:15:23 I get the feeling that it's more of ajoke than pgimeno has let on ;) 05:15:32 Oh no! (/me just read your bit about beating 2L ;) ) 05:15:36 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 05:15:42 lol 05:15:43 :) 05:15:45 it was a joke 05:16:16 but if you read on we found one solution how to use just one instruction 05:16:26 pgimeno got if from some game :) 05:16:51 with that would be possible/necessary to make self modificating programs 05:17:03 Hmm, I didn't see that... 05:17:10 wait a bit 05:17:50 Oh dear! 05:17:54 * GregorR just saw what you're saying. 05:18:12 start here 05:18:13 16:13:21 regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox? 05:18:13 A 90-degree turn would do one thing, a 180-degree turn another, a 270-degree turn yet another. 05:19:25 And the turns would be pushed back when the program pointer hit them, a la Sokoban. 05:19:37 :) 05:20:02 Hmm. 05:20:02 it really interesting what kind of languages are possible 05:20:12 I need a moment to process whether that would work or not... 05:20:22 Ah, here's a problem: how do you do program logic? 05:20:29 what logic? :p 05:20:32 If-then 05:20:36 i see 05:20:39 hmm 05:20:55 blame pgimeno, not my idea! *flees away* 05:20:59 lol 05:21:01 :) 05:21:01 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 05:21:03 hmm 05:21:06 not sure 05:21:06 Now this is stuck in my head. 05:21:13 bwahahaha 05:21:50 then we succeeded to trap someone's mind to do the actual work and let us bask in the actual glory. :) 05:22:28 When it's released as "Gregor Richards presents: 1L! (Some concepts may have been partially attributed to some abstract work by Keymaker and pgimeno)" You'll think differently ;) 05:22:42 :) 05:22:54 lol 05:22:58 BING! Got it 05:23:05 wha how? 05:23:10 >:) 05:23:32 I would tell you.... 05:23:34 No ... 05:23:35 No I wouldn't. 05:23:39 tell 05:23:42 or.. 05:23:42 :-P 05:23:45 tell :p 05:23:52 I'm still not positive if it would work, BUT 05:23:56 0k 05:24:10 1) Straight-on = if. If the cell is non-zero, do NOT turn, but go through 05:24:27 yes 05:24:29 2) Right turn = op. Same ops as in 2L, same overloading 05:24:30 that sounds reasonable 05:24:38 3) Left turn = opless turn 05:24:47 If you stack two +s, they can't be pushed 05:24:50 A la Sokoban 05:25:16 is there language called Sokoban as well? 05:25:24 No. 05:25:27 ok 05:25:28 But it's a good game 8-D 05:25:31 :) 05:26:03 Hmmm, I see an issue... 05:26:35 It would be quite difficult to handle the if-not case, because you would be back where you came from ... pushing blocks would help, but loops would still be difficult... 05:26:53 really difficult 05:27:07 i think this language is too bizarre for me 05:27:12 HEY! DING AGAIN! Gregor's on a roll! 05:27:22 at least i wouldn't have the nervers :) 05:27:27 lol 05:27:29 GregorR: see the wierd language 05:27:31 Straight-on divides the program pointer - it will continue going in the same direction, but will be offset. 05:27:39 calamari: I don't count that ;) 05:27:43 why not? 05:27:45 calamari: Since an angle is an op. 05:27:50 calamari: So it actually has several. 05:28:23 It's an interesting and esoteric language, yes ... 05:28:27 But still has more ops than the winz0r 05:28:34 if you're counting turns, then that's an angle too :) 05:28:59 Damn, you're totally right. 05:29:06 + placed differently would be a different op. 05:29:21 but... who cares? have fun with it :) 05:29:24 I'm OK overloading by direction (obviously) ... 05:29:37 It's not my original idea :-P 05:29:45 So I could drop it at any time! 05:29:49 :) 05:30:12 better to do that, it's too evil 05:30:33 Pff, I can implement this from the 2L code base in a matter of minutes. Might as well. 05:30:44 NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! 05:30:57 how about frequency analysis of the "wave" to determine opcodes? hehe 05:31:05 hehe 05:31:27 what the programs should look like? 05:31:30 I was thinking that it would be nice to have a BF-ish language, but, the operations would do insanely complex algorithms, making it incredibly difficult to do simple addition, etc ;) 05:31:52 hehe 05:31:55 keymaker: probably big sine waves :) 05:32:01 yes 05:32:11 but what they would look like in the source code? 05:32:11 or maybe square waves 05:32:33 oh.. let the programmer choose 05:32:42 whitespace vs whatever they like 05:38:30 nooooooooo aaargh 05:38:37 must go to school 05:38:43 grrrr 05:39:19 well, see you much later.. 8+ hours 05:39:25 * Keymaker dies 05:39:27 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 05:44:25 OMFG, this language is stupid 05:54:04 go write some Malbolge and you'll feel better 05:57:45 lol 05:57:56 1L is seriously more stupid than Malbolge :-P 05:57:59 that question about what character to use must have been kicking around in my subconscious 05:58:46 the interpreter/compiler could figure out the language as it went along 05:58:57 based on context (if there is enough context) 05:59:09 kinda like code breaking 05:59:12 Some languages are quite difficult to tell apart. 05:59:24 * GregorR is unsure what you're talking about btw ;) 05:59:29 oh.. sorry :) 05:59:44 for example if we're going with C, for example 06:00:20 ddsdx <--- break, while, ? 06:00:34 actually, neither.. since it doesn't fit either pattern 06:00:56 fdhas would work :) 06:01:39 I actually meant that I don't know what you're referring to about that question about what character to use ... I'll go read the log ;) 06:01:40 ASM would be better for this, since a lot of old ASM's used 3 character mnemonics 06:01:47 (/me doesn't even remember yesterday) 06:02:11 GregorR: oh.. we were talking for a minute about figuring out the opcode based on frequency analysis 06:02:28 and someone asked what character would be used for the drawing 06:02:33 OHHHHHHHH, right right right 06:04:08 Hmm. 06:04:09 one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF) 06:04:23 Hmm 06:04:42 therefore any file would represent a valid program 06:04:54 You can't have syntax errors in many 2D languages, since no characters need to match. 06:06:17 although, maybe its impossible as well, becauseif I made it so that the program couldn't crash it woulkdn't be turing complete, right? 06:07:01 Hmmmmmmmmmmm 06:07:05 I don't see why not........? 06:07:53 Turing complete just means it can solve any mathematical problem. So long as there's some means of quitting at the end, it doesn't need to "crash" per se. 06:08:08 It could just have a quit operator. 06:09:46 Perfect example: AFAIK, 2L is turing complete (it has every BF operator), however, it has not syntax errors and cannot crash, only exit gracefully. 06:10:17 what if you do this: []] ? 06:10:42 That's not how loops work in 2L - it's two dimensional, so a loop is just a series of ifs that have been drawn in a circle. 06:10:57 cool 06:10:59 I should have said "It has a means to do every BF operator," since it only has two operators. 06:13:58 Hmm, I've gtg for a bit. 06:14:01 I'll be back in a while. 06:20:59 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:56:39 hi 09:57:02 one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF) 09:57:10 I think there's one: Jot 09:57:59 http://ling.ucsd.edu/~barker/Iota/ 09:58:17 it uses the Functional paradigm 11:52:56 -!- kipple has joined. 15:43:22 -!- Keymaker has joined. 15:51:54 hello 15:52:07 hi 15:52:45 Hoi all 15:53:02 hiya 16:03:03 That was a truly exciting conversation ;) 16:03:39 :) 16:03:50 sorry.. i tried to open some topic 16:03:58 but didn't invent any 16:04:04 Heheh 16:04:11 btw, is there any other word for 'invent'? i'm tired using that one 16:04:19 Create .... 16:04:24 Think up 16:04:30 ah that's good 16:04:54 Lesse what thesaurus.com says 8-D 16:05:01 ok 16:05:27 Or the quaint "make" of course. 16:05:47 Main Entry: invent 16:05:47 Part of Speech: verb 1 16:05:47 Definition: create 16:05:47 Synonyms: ad-lib, author, bear, coin, come upon, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, discover, dream up, envision, execute, fake, fashion, find, forge, form, formulate, frame, hatch, imagine, improve, improvise, inaugurate, initiate, jam, knock off, make, make up, mint, originate, plan, produce, project, shuck, think up, toss off, turn out, wing it 16:06:05 About 60% of those are terribly synonyms :-P 16:07:41 but there are some worth of using 16:07:43 thanks 16:07:49 Heh :) 16:08:07 now i just hope i can remember those when i knock off something next time 16:08:36 I'm not sure that one works out of a few contexts ... 16:08:50 Since it also means kill in a few contexts *shrugs* 16:08:58 lol 16:10:00 GregorR: 'excogitate' seems to be missing from the list :) 16:10:01 Synonyms: author, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, dream up, envision, fashion, forge, form, formulate, initiate, make, make up, originate, plan, produce, think up, turn out 16:10:14 lindi-: That was just what www.thesaurus.com said :-P 16:10:23 There's a list of basically non-contextual synonyms. 16:10:42 GregorR: use libre dictionary at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ 16:11:21 Oh wow, that's infinitely better. 16:11:55 GregorR: yes, and you can include it on your own page or sell the results if you want 16:12:22 Wowsa. 16:12:31 Keymaker: $25 for this synonym list. 16:12:54 Just kidding of course, though I don't yet know how to fenagle this page right. 16:13:31 GTG to school, see you all later. 16:14:31 ok 16:14:35 have fun >:) 16:16:59 they seem to have changed page layout a bit do you like http://wordnet.princeton.edu/contact more than http://wordnet.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/faqview.cgi ? 16:20:49 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 17:42:56 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:57:38 pgimeno!!!! tell more about bitxtreme 18:00:35 hi Keymaker 18:01:23 I've changed the spec 18:02:41 not still uploaded though 18:03:55 ok 18:03:57 sounds good 18:04:00 (and hi!) 18:05:24 ah.. this day has been nice 18:05:30 i finally got my first gas mask 18:05:34 that i bought from internet :) 18:05:47 wow! 18:05:58 hehe 18:06:02 good in case you suffer an anthrax attack 18:06:08 yeah 18:06:18 maybe i should wear it everywhere 18:06:20 nah 18:06:38 it's actually because of one club that is gasmask-only 18:06:43 (joke..) 18:07:06 seriously, i have no need for it 18:07:13 hehe 18:07:20 but i like their (gasmaks) look 18:07:27 i cna yype today.. 18:07:30 *i can type today 18:07:40 so i decided to start collecting those 18:08:33 well, I just have a dust mask 18:08:57 hmm 18:11:07 looks at this: 18:11:08 http://194.251.244.158/auctionimages/0/d6/517d898f68d5f8435c9a3d8122343-orig.jpg 18:11:13 that one would be cool 18:11:38 (note that i'm not into any military stuff, just gas masks) 18:11:51 (that i don't even concern military) 18:12:21 nice mask! 18:12:23 yeah 18:12:32 it's ~70 years old iirc 18:12:35 looks very alien 18:13:30 yeah, I guess there's a 50% chance that someone wearing it would have been confused by an alien by the time it was made 18:13:59 :) 18:15:05 mmh. my fingers smell that gas mask rubber.. better go wash them :) 18:15:17 heh 18:15:51 so.. 18:16:07 is bitxtreme really turing complete or is it just some joke language? 18:16:21 you can judge better after the update 18:16:25 ok 18:16:34 i really hope it's real! :) 18:19:00 there it is (still not finished) 18:20:23 cool.. i'll go to check 18:21:16 hi! 18:21:38 pgimeno : is it possible to get it too ? 18:22:05 get what? 18:22:05 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php 18:22:09 oh, the page 18:22:12 sorry 18:22:14 :) 18:24:18 "To avoid confusion with other kinds of files the standard source file extension is TXT (for Bitxtreme), which is rarely used." 18:24:21 :D 18:24:43 that's actually just an advance of my next (huge!) site update... I needed to make room for my Malbolge findings and for GregorR's files and a reorganization was needed before it was too late. Reorganizing means also adding new content, and so it goes and goes... 18:24:50 oops, brb 18:25:32 sounds good 18:32:33 the programs are probably written with characters '0' and '1'? 18:32:47 or do i have to use hex editor? 18:33:20 hexedit i think 18:33:32 rgh 18:33:41 writing the source is gettin' annoying on that case 18:33:47 just write a tool to translate 18:33:51 yaeh 18:33:55 i was just typing that :9 18:34:07 write it in BF or something:) 18:34:15 i was just typing that as well :) 18:34:21 lol 18:34:27 great minds think alike.... 18:34:33 yeah 18:34:33 or something 18:34:38 seems so :) 18:35:23 " then PC is increased by two, modulo 2" 18:35:36 this does not make much sense to me. is it a joke? 18:35:56 or a typo 18:37:07 lol 18:37:12 i thought about that too 18:37:20 maybe it's somekind of joke 18:37:42 grrrg.. back in minute.... 18:37:48 2 modulo 2 = 0 :) 18:37:57 exactly 18:38:04 i think it's a joke 18:38:09 but then again the whole lang seems to be a joke :) 18:38:46 :) 18:38:48 as the PC is only one bit, there are only four possible programs (which are the four samples listed) 18:38:52 (i haven't left yet for a minute) 18:39:02 hmm 18:39:13 but probably with those everything can be done 18:39:20 and the input and output was some bizarre 18:42:09 " there is one single instruction: subtract and branch if negative" 18:42:19 haha, the registers can never be negative :D 18:42:43 :9 18:42:48 but notice that is talking about OISC 18:43:01 oh wait 18:43:06 it's talking about this as well 18:43:07 :) 18:46:32 " If the result is negative (the bits are in two's complement representation)" 18:46:54 00? 18:47:02 don't understand it very well , i'm not native english speaker 18:47:15 i don't understand it either, i just guessed :) 18:47:59 does it mean that is A = 0 and P = 1 , then the result is "temporarily" negative ? 18:47:59 if i recognize the word 'complement' i guess it would change something like '01001' to '10110' 18:48:21 don't ask me :) 18:48:48 it's not meant to make sense. 18:54:24 well, must go 18:54:33 have fun! 18:54:35 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!"). 19:54:14 oh well, yes 19:54:43 it is indeed a joke... I thought it was obvious enough after the last changes 19:55:52 doh, I have to leave again, later 21:14:54 re 21:49:38 btw, a two's complement 1-bit number can only represent 0 and -1 22:53:00 Good joke. I didn't notice it at a first glance. Only when I sat down and tried to understand it did I get it... :) 22:54:12 thanks! I'm adding the last bits; the interpreter is online but I'm fixing the links which are broken. 22:56:34 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:56:38 " It has the memory limited to 2 bits for space reasons" 22:56:41 HAHA 22:56:48 Bitxtreme? 22:56:48 reminds me of mod_bf :) 22:56:52 yep 22:56:54 almost done 22:56:56 Heheh 22:57:01 'tis x-cellent 22:57:48 have you seen the apache module mod_bf? 22:57:50 thanks 22:57:56 no I haven't 22:58:07 it's a BF mod for Apache 22:58:09 Scary, scary piece of software. 22:58:24 In the good sort of way *shrugs* 22:58:35 it has an array size of 100 because more is a "waste of memory" :D 22:58:36 cool! is it serious? 22:58:41 oh hehe 22:59:12 I thought of it when I read the BitXtreme spec 22:59:26 http://modbf.sourceforge.net/ 22:59:41 has been dead for more than four years... 23:00:21 wow, cool 23:00:49 I'm afraid the 1.0 project was abandoned 23:01:22 I once thought of doing a web-scripting lang with bf 23:01:34 like PHP with inline HTML, but only BF as code :D 23:03:21 GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I hate either ORK or Kipple (haven't decided which yet :-P ) 23:03:52 heh 23:03:59 what's the problem? 23:04:18 I'm just having a lot of problems writing this in ORK :-P 23:04:27 The code keeps multiplying and multiplying >_> 23:04:29 no kidding :) 23:04:37 It's now >500 lines 23:05:49 damn, my server doesn't allow download of .py files 23:06:10 just rename it .py.txt or something 23:06:14 Why not? Tries to execute it? 23:06:35 not even that I guess, GregorR-L... it returns an Internal Server Error 23:06:41