00:06:46 <fizzie> I've made a recursive fibonacci in befunge. It takes (optimized; not completely by me) 13x3, 23x2 or 9x4 characters.
00:32:54 <fizzie> >~# :#,_@ (with EOF=0 semantics)
00:34:01 <GregorR> If StdIn says it's done then I am to quit.
00:34:38 <kipple> do you have an interpreter already, or is it all on "paper"?
00:37:23 <GregorR> With the worst parser ever written by mankind.
00:37:43 <kipple> wow! is it written by Mankind? :)
00:37:55 <GregorR> Depends on your definition of me :-P
00:38:09 <kipple> well, I wouldn't know...
00:39:20 <kipple> how do you do that trick to talk about yourself in 3rd person?
00:39:55 * kipple has learned something today
00:43:32 <GregorR> StdOut is to write "Yay!\n"
02:14:30 <GregorR> w00t, loops and conditionals are both working :)
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03:59:55 <GregorR-L> fizzie: Sorry I keep tossing stuff into the FYB web space, I promise that's the last one ;0
04:24:32 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/fibonacci.ork < Fibonacci sequence ... particularly ugly 8-D
04:52:39 <GregorR-L> Apparently I'm incapable of writing a Quine.
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07:59:25 <Keymaker> (and yeah i knew it was in ORK)
07:59:29 <GregorR-L> Please don't laugh at how long and stupid it is, it's my first quine ;)
07:59:31 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/quine.ork
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08:01:45 <Keymaker> i don't have the slightest idea how it works :) the language is too bizarre :p
08:02:10 <GregorR-L> I haven't documented it yet, so ... *cough*
08:02:21 <GregorR-L> It's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented.
08:02:33 <GregorR-L> The only function you can have outside of an object is "main'
08:03:15 <GregorR-L> Like I said, it's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented. :)
08:05:40 <Keymaker> seems to be turing-complete (at least i'd guess so)
08:06:08 <GregorR-L> It's not as easy to prove as things that you can prove are BF-complete.
08:07:31 <GregorR-L> If I wrote a BF interpreter in ORK, that would prove it was turing complete, yes?
08:08:27 <lament> better yet, try the universal register machine
08:08:54 <calamari> lament: it doesn't get much easier to implement than bf :)
08:09:05 <lament> universal register machine is easier
08:09:49 <lament> http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html
08:09:50 <Keymaker> how does universal register machine work?
08:10:31 <lament> actuall it's even more similar to BF than i remembered.
08:10:56 <pgimeno> IIRC Faase's pages hold a description
08:10:57 <GregorR-L> Well, sleepitime for me (right as everybody else is finally becoming active)
08:13:09 <Keymaker> so it is that language is turing-complete if some other, turing-complete, language's interpreter can be written in it?
08:13:24 <Keymaker> like for example bf interpreter?
08:14:17 <lament> or, if you can compile programs in another turing complete language to your language
08:14:23 <pgimeno> oh, lament already posted the page... I think I need more coffee
08:16:10 <lament> note that to actually prove turing completeness with brainfuck
08:16:11 <pgimeno> btw, I've found a language called OOPS in the old Cat's Eye pages which is allegedly object-oriented (thus the name ;) but there's no link - does anyone know anything else?
08:16:11 <Keymaker> is there any language that isn't turing-complete but where still has been written some turing-complete language's interpreter? or could that even be possible?
08:16:20 <lament> you need either an infitite memory size
08:16:37 <lament> there must be SOME way to store arbitrary amount of information
08:16:46 <lament> otherwise it's just a finite state machine
08:17:13 <lament> Keymaker: well i guess
08:17:15 <lament> if you have a language
08:17:27 <lament> in which the only instruction is "input a brainfuck program, and interpret it"
08:17:33 <lament> that language isn't really turing-complete :)
08:17:49 <Keymaker> haha, would be a good joke language
08:18:21 <lament> so i guess writing an interpreter does NOT really prove turing-completeness
08:18:27 <lament> you need to compile stuff
08:18:31 <GregorR> I think that when people are talking about "turing completeness" with respect to programming languages, it really means "x is turing complete within the limitations of the interpreter's memory"
08:18:35 <lament> from a turing-complete lanugage to your langugae
08:19:08 <GregorR> Well then no language is turing complete.
08:19:08 <lament> GregorR: you don't care about interpreters when judging turing-completeness
08:19:20 <GregorR> They're all limited by memory constraints.
08:19:32 <GregorR> The language C is not limited by memory.
08:19:40 <lament> a language defines a specification of a virtual machine
08:19:40 <GregorR> Only the system your run it on is.
08:19:48 <lament> this virtual machine may or may not be turing complete
08:20:01 <lament> it may or may not require infinite memory
08:20:23 <lament> if it does require infinite memory then it's not possible to implement it 100%
08:20:32 <GregorR> Well, doesn't "turing complete" mean that, given the proper programming, it could do any mathematical task?
08:20:34 <lament> but it's turing-complete nonetheless
08:21:01 <lament> GregorR: unfortunately computers are not turing complete :)
08:21:19 <pgimeno> note that sometimes that implies storing the program in the tape
08:21:22 <GregorR> But a LANGUAGE could be if it did not have an implicit memory limit?
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08:21:42 <lament> "brainfuck provides arbitrarily big memory"
08:21:49 <GregorR> So C is turing complete because you could do anything, though you might need to malloc(10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
08:22:09 <GregorR> But BF is not because you could never have that many cells.
08:22:28 <pgimeno> you don't need to malloc that much :) just think of the pointer type as an arbitrarily long integer
08:22:51 <lament> GregorR: there's no agreement on whether BF memory is infinite or not
08:23:00 <GregorR> Isn't the language spec 30000 cells?
08:23:12 <lament> 4000 or something, but nobody cares much
08:23:37 <Keymaker> but if i remember correct it's "at least"
08:23:46 <GregorR> So then, if the cell count was built into the language, it could never be turing complete ... but if it wasn't (in BF as an example), it could be?
08:23:49 <lament> and i don't think the cell size is ever specified
08:24:05 <lament> which could mean that the cells themselves can be infinitely big
08:24:12 <lament> in which case you don't need too many of them to be turing-complete
08:24:21 <GregorR> So long as there's infinite means for storage.
08:24:31 <GregorR> (In the perfect scenario that can never be attained :-P )
08:24:32 <lament> i wonder how few you need
08:24:44 <lament> actually in BF you probably still need infinite number of cells
08:24:54 <lament> but i'm not gonna try proving that :|
08:25:13 <pgimeno> did someone read http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt ?
08:25:20 <GregorR> I'm still confident that both 2L and ORK are turing complete (2L within the bounds of memory of course)
08:25:30 <lament> pgimeno: that spec is great
08:25:54 <lament> anyway even if you take BF's memory to be 30000
08:26:06 <lament> it's still intuitively turing complete
08:26:12 <lament> for any "small enough" problem
08:26:19 <lament> and if the problem is bigger, you just increase the memory size
08:26:23 <GregorR> Well, but doesn't turing complete MEAN for ANY problem?
08:26:26 <lament> since 30000 is clearly just an arbitrary number
08:26:43 <lament> ANY problem would still need only finite memory
08:26:46 <GregorR> So, BF itself is, if 30000 is not taken to be part of the language, but of the implementation.
08:27:01 <lament> no matter how big your problem is
08:27:06 <lament> it only needs a finite memory
08:27:16 <GregorR> Calculating every digit of pi.
08:27:23 <GregorR> Infinite time, infinite memory.
08:27:23 <lament> that's not a valid problem
08:27:44 <GregorR> OK, I've REALLY got to sleep now.
08:28:34 <lament> calculating pi to N digits is a valid problem :)
08:29:30 <GregorR> OK, OK: A language is turing complete IF given infinite memory and code space, it could solve any mathematical problem. Is that a good all-inclusive definition?
08:29:45 <GregorR> (Trust me, I'm asleep ;) )
08:30:05 <lament> still it's s/infinite/arbitrary
08:30:49 <GregorR> Well, if it was given infinite, it still certainly could ... and I think that's a bit easier to explain ...
08:30:54 <GregorR> How about "sufficiently large"
08:31:23 <GregorR> OK, now I'm REALLY REALLY sleeping.
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08:32:50 <pgimeno> the exclusion of infinite algorithms is somwehat puzzling to me... this C program: main() {printf("0."); while (1) printf("3");} obviously prints the infinite expansion of 1/3 even if it's not a valid algorithm
08:33:25 <lindi-> GregorR: why use such an obscure definitions? what's a "mathematical problem" anyway?
08:33:52 <lament> pgimeno: well, the reason is
08:34:00 <lament> pgimeno: turing machines don't have IO
08:34:10 <lament> you don't look at IO when deciding it
08:34:13 <lament> it's just a side effect
08:34:37 <lament> only at the state of the machine when the program terminates
08:35:47 <lament> but remember the pioneers were looking from a mathematical perspective
08:36:41 <pgimeno> oh, well, I suppose it's just a question of historical reasons
08:37:43 <pgimeno> but being limited to analysis of finite programs for historical reasons makes little sense to me
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13:07:10 <Keymaker> (or don't know if it's challenging)
13:08:44 <Keymaker> make a file that has 32 characters in it: those characters should be the md5 hash of the file
13:09:15 <Keymaker> so, the data inside the file should be the md5 hash of the file
13:12:01 <Keymaker> if that is possible it's probably not easy to find
13:13:24 <pgimeno> (your web page looks awesome, btw)
13:13:37 <Keymaker> thanks, you're first to say that :)
13:14:16 <pgimeno> I feel that the befunge quine is a bit cheatful though, in the sense that it reads its own source
13:14:58 <Keymaker> but quine still ;) and valid program
13:15:42 <pgimeno> it's quite compact and easy to understand (even for me who still didn't know anything about the Befunge instructions)
13:17:26 <Keymaker> the quine works the way that first it reads it own instructions to stack (stuff inside " ")
13:17:37 <Keymaker> and the it executes the instructions
13:17:53 <Keymaker> the instructions tell it to print out '"'s and the stuff there is in stack
13:19:02 <Keymaker> so at the end of 80 char line it jumps to place 2 to the beginning of the program and not to place 1 which is '"'
13:20:51 <Keymaker> did you read that my challenge?
13:21:06 <Keymaker> (that i wrote some minutes ago?)
13:21:46 <pgimeno> I'm sure MD5 has a "fixed point"
13:22:05 <pgimeno> (don't know if that's the right name in English; in spanish it's "punto fijo")
13:22:22 <Keymaker> i have no idea either but i assume i see what you mean
13:22:25 <pgimeno> a value such that f(a) = a
13:22:51 <pgimeno> I think that that's too big a challenge
13:23:11 <Keymaker> takes at least lot of calculations
13:23:18 <pgimeno> finding an MD5 collision has taken many years since MD5 was invented
13:23:30 <pgimeno> I think that's about as much challenging as an MD5 collision
13:23:54 <pgimeno> finding two files with the same hash
13:24:18 <pgimeno> two *different* files, that is :)
13:24:43 <pgimeno> yes, of course, I think it's been done early this year
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13:25:32 <Keymaker> i have no idea when, but i cna't remember where i found the fact
13:25:39 <Keymaker> i think it was somewhere in wikipedia
13:26:24 <pgimeno> MD4 has been cracked; perhaps it's feasible (for us anyway) to find fixed points (or whatever it is called) with it
13:28:00 <pgimeno> I'm don't feel much like taking a challenge right now, though - I prefer to try to end my current projects in my scarce spare time
13:28:40 <pgimeno> btw, I've seen GregorR's Ork and I've liked it very much!
13:28:56 <Keymaker> and awesome that he made a quine in it
13:29:02 <pgimeno> maybe it can be converted to an educational language even
13:29:31 <Keymaker> (and about the challenge: it was mostly for laughs, i didn't even think that anyone would try to solve it!)
13:29:58 <KnX> i'm searching peoples who wrote funge-98 interpreters , is there anyone here ? ( i'm trying to write mine, and have some questions )
13:30:18 <Keymaker> hmm, interesting project, but i haven't seen any
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14:06:29 <Keymakere> i made a new befunge quine that's nicely 42 instructions
14:06:33 <Keymakere> <> #"25*6*:,2+:,2+2/:,3+:,1-,>:#,_57*1-,@"
14:13:12 <GregorR> My ORK Quine is 102 lines :-P
14:13:23 <GregorR> I think yours is cleaner :-P
14:15:48 <Keymakere> whe does "Keymaker" leave this channel?
14:16:06 <Keymakere> i want to change my name already..
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15:38:50 <Keymaker> aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
15:39:55 <Keymaker> all this time i've been trying to find a f*cking dvd player for ******* Windows.. i just can't find any
15:40:47 <Keymaker> even some trial version is ok, but some that doesn't stop after three minutes (man some are stupid)
15:41:18 <Keymaker> i had to play 15 minutes breakout to get more calm
15:42:26 <Keymaker> and yes, the dvd player here in linux complains something that "error reading NAV packet"
15:43:05 <Keymaker> soon i'll smash the keyboard through window
15:43:45 <Keymaker> rgh i have to read some linux books. i can't use this. i'm too afraid to try how stuff works.
15:44:09 <Keymaker> so i can't install any new program here probably, not to mention finding some stuff from web if i need to get something
15:44:25 <Keymaker> well i go searching...... i'm so annoyed.........
15:44:30 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
16:03:57 <pgimeno> GregorR: did I already mention that ORK ROKs? :)
16:49:05 <GregorR> Heheh, yes you did pgimeno, but I have no problem with being showered with praise *shrugs*
16:49:37 <GregorR> And yes, actually, I was thinking when I was done that it would make a good quick-intro to object oriented programming that doesn't involve concurrently learning C++ syntax.
16:50:08 <GregorR> I'm still in the middle of writing a howto for it, however.
16:52:13 <GregorR> Keymaker: Win...dows? Isn't that some archaic operating system that nobody uses anymore? (In the happy universe in my head :'( )
16:53:47 <pgimeno> I like these constructs very much and I'm eager to read the specs
16:54:28 <pgimeno> (I see no Keymaker around btw, though he usually reads the logs)
17:04:40 <GregorR> Yeah, I was under the impression that he did.
17:05:02 <GregorR> My current revision of the specs (which I can't upload from work >_<) are done, but worthless :-P
17:10:13 <GregorR> Any technical writers hang out on #esoteric? :-P
17:14:20 * GregorR suddenly remembers pgimeno's article site.
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18:06:33 <Keymaker> and i wish i wouldn't need to use windows never again
18:06:45 <Keymaker> well, maybe later i don't have to
18:06:48 <GregorR> I haven't used Windows in ....
18:07:03 <GregorR> I don't even remember the last time I actively used Windows.
18:07:24 <GregorR> I work purely in a UNIX and GNU/Linux environment at work, I run GNU/Linux and the occasional BSD on my home systems..
18:08:29 <Keymaker> ok. i wonder has there ever been any medical research about "how $/m windows affects one's health"
18:08:50 <Keymaker> probably the results would have been that active use of microsoft products causes
18:09:20 <Keymaker> [insert some medical stuff here]
18:09:32 <GregorR> Has there ever been any medical research into the effects of BrainFuck on the human ... err ... brain?
18:10:17 <Keymaker> it would probably be filled with positive stuff how that wonderful language increases brain capacity and keeps brain in good condition
18:10:20 <GregorR> "Well, time to go to the store >>>>>>>>>> I'll take one of these - and one of these >- and two of those >>>--
18:11:58 <Keymaker> must go yet again. hopefully i can get to see the dvd..
18:12:17 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").
18:14:12 <GregorR> By the way, whoever reads this log in the future, my "lol" up there was in response to Keymaker, not myself, I'm not so lame as to lol to my own joke.
18:16:37 * GregorR suddenly realizes the implications of somebody reading the log in the future.
18:16:59 <GregorR> If somebody reads this log in 2015, when I am inevitably world-famous, what will they think of me?
18:17:18 <lament> millions of people read #esoteric log every day
18:17:24 <lament> with their morning coffee
18:17:44 <GregorR> I don't so much care about current reading ... it's how it reflects on my future.
18:17:59 <GregorR> Will ORK get me hoisted from my position as supreme overlord of Earth? I don't like that thought.
18:19:18 <lament> for some reason i read that "from" as "to"
18:19:23 <lament> it makes more sense that way
18:49:18 <pgimeno> GregorR: sorry for the delay... about the spec, could I take a look at it somehow?
19:07:06 <GregorR> Not until at least this evening - I can't connect to my work's WLAN on my laptop, and have no other way of transferring off the files, so they languish there until I go home. At that point, of course.
19:08:02 <GregorR> Err, this evening in my timezone...
19:09:05 <GregorR> So, tomorrow morning for you I guess.
19:10:18 <GregorR> I'm not actually on my laptop, I'm on my work comp.
19:10:24 <GregorR> My laptop has no network connection whatsoever.
19:15:18 <pgimeno> you can always type in the file ;)
19:15:51 <pgimeno> if it's too much work, you can gzip | uuencode it first so it's smaller
19:16:16 <pgimeno> and type in the uuencoded version
19:20:01 <GregorR> Why didn't I think of that?!
19:20:45 <GregorR> M9&9A:75S:&]D9G5I9&AA<V9P;VEH96%W:6]P9FAE9'-A:6]F:&4@87=I;V9H
19:20:56 <pgimeno> perhaps because you have not typed in many machine-code Spectrum programs :P
19:21:35 <GregorR> No otherr interface between Spectrums and IAs?
19:21:51 <pgimeno> between magazines and speccies anyway
19:22:10 <pgimeno> until they started distributing tapes with the magazines
19:49:43 <fizzie> I typed in some sid tunes on a c128 (with it's built-in monitor thing) since I had no working cable to transfer them, and the tape-recording method just didn't work.
19:52:23 <pgimeno> I still don't know how exactly is a sid tune... the idea I got is that it's a machine-code program directly talking to the sound chip, is that right?
20:31:03 <fizzie> The sound chip itself is pretty funky, too.
20:31:46 <pgimeno> I don't know the details but I remember a few aspects, yeah...
20:57:08 <fizzie> I used what's basically a software emulation of SID for the "software synthesizer" (a bit too fine words for that... thing) in one 4k intro (demoscene thing) that never got finished.
21:02:06 <pgimeno> heh, nice... I also planned to use software synthesis in a 4K intro (regular FM synthesis in my case)
21:02:33 <pgimeno> ... and it was never finished either :)
21:03:43 <fizzie> I had some trouble fitting X11, opengl and that soft-synth in a 4K elf executable - or actually having any space left over to insert actual code in. :p
21:03:46 <pgimeno> I even prepared a .mod converter
21:05:35 <pgimeno> DOS has the advantage that executable headers are either nonexistent (for .com) or can be shrunk to 32 bytes (for .exe)
21:05:38 <fizzie> DOS is nicer - there's a _lot_ of overhead in the (dynamic linking things and) executables gnu 'ld' generates, but writing them manually wasn't very appealing.
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21:06:11 <pgimeno> isn't full sid emulation just too much for a 4K intro?
21:06:47 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't really sid emulation, the concepts were just sid-inspired. It didn't try to provide SID control registers or anything.
21:07:27 <pgimeno> does the music exist? mine does, if you want to hear it
21:08:10 <pgimeno> hm, we're a bit off topic here
21:08:32 <fizzie> ELF headers can be squeezed pretty tight, too - some of the headers can be "interlaced" and code embedded in otherwise-useless parts. I have a (far from completely optimized) "false" and "true" executables, both 76 bytes in size.
21:09:18 <pgimeno> that's it! FALSE is an esoteric language and TRUE is too ;)
21:09:24 <GregorR> AHAHAH I should implement networking in ORK then implement the DirectNet protocol in it :-P
21:09:36 <fizzie> There wasn't any real music, just test tunes for the thing, I was going to let a more musically talented person write that stuff. I can barely create noise, much less any music.
21:10:06 <fizzie> Er, right, that was pretty off-topic. I guess I should concentrate on that 'structural befunge' initiative.
21:10:10 <pgimeno> in my case, the group's musician composed it
21:12:24 <GregorR> Hmm, object oriented befunge...
21:14:18 <pgimeno> damn, I didn't remember I had actually posted my bf debugger in my homepage
21:14:57 <pgimeno> anyway it will be moved from there as soon as I prepare the esolang page
21:15:27 <fizzie> That thing was very helpful in debugging that regexp-to-brainf*ck mungler.
21:16:00 <pgimeno> sorry if it was too DOS-stylish, I'm working on that
21:16:41 <GregorR> So are you going to weave esoteric programming into the esolang page?
21:16:49 <GregorR> Have befunge or PATH running through the background...
21:17:18 <GregorR> Write the entire page in SPL 8-D
21:17:39 <pgimeno> oh well, I'm currently using PHP but I guess I could port it to something else
21:17:41 <fizzie> Didn't I write a web server in funge98, or was that just a dream?
21:18:27 <GregorR> I want to see a BF web server ... obviously you would need to run it as " nc -e bfi httpd.bf -l -p 80 "
21:19:21 <pgimeno> I'm afraid of nc after looking at the code, now I use tcpserver
21:21:10 <fizzie> I think I added an SCKE extension (with a 'peek for incoming data' command) to augment the SOCK extension, for the web server, but I'm not sure I ever got around to writing the server itself.
21:21:29 <fizzie> (Actually I've been wanting to do some dynamic web-stuff with Scheme, but that's not esoteric either.)
21:22:50 <pgimeno> I think I've seen some Debian package which was actually a Scheme script somewhere... I don't remember what it was right now
21:22:52 <GregorR> pgimeno: Original nc or GNU netcat?
21:23:13 <pgimeno> the one shipped with Debian
21:23:20 <GregorR> I believe GNU netcat was a total rewrite.
21:24:16 * pgimeno files that info somewhere in the queue for later processing
21:39:45 <GregorR> pgimeno: I just figured out what you meant so many messages ago about "currently in PHP but I could port it to something else"
21:40:03 <GregorR> I actually meant in the design of the page, have little bits of esoteric programming snuck in, not in the language the page is written in.
21:40:56 <pgimeno> do you mean as a background or something?
21:42:02 <pgimeno> oh, I have just reread your sentence
21:42:12 <pgimeno> now I understand it better
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21:53:28 <KnX> i'm searching an efficient implementation for an arbitrary-dimentional funge-space in C, if someone has a good idea ...
22:15:43 <KnX> is there someone alive for a fingeprint-related question ?
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22:29:56 <pgimeno> if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented
22:30:31 <KnX> it's funge-related
22:30:59 <pgimeno> sorry then, I can't help with that
22:33:05 <KnX> if i remember well my maths , "if ( if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented ) is true , then ( if i'm funge-oriented then it's not funge-related ) is true" , sounds like murphy's law
22:34:14 <pgimeno> hehehe, you're pretty much right I'm afraid
22:38:00 <GregorR> I could get into Befunge ... but I've always found it to be not quite esoteric enough ;)
22:38:53 <KnX> compared to other esoteric , he is very easy to learn and usable , making it less esoteric i think
22:39:26 <pgimeno> FYI, I have a project dedicated to a Malbolge program
22:40:17 <pgimeno> that's also very easy to learn and usable, ya know
22:40:20 <KnX> I don't know malbolge very well, if you have an URL with specs ...
22:40:25 <GregorR> See, now, Malbolge is just TOO esoteric for me.
22:40:50 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming_language
22:41:23 <GregorR> See, BF is the PERFECT esoteric language, because it's just minimalist. It's not that it's necessarily designed to hinder you, it's just designed with the minimum number of features to function.
22:41:57 <pgimeno> I think that Thue meets these characteristics too
22:44:49 <pgimeno> it's my non-deterministic language of choice
22:45:41 <pgimeno> if you're very Thue-oriented you can hand-compile Thue programs in most current languages
22:46:36 <pgimeno> (C has just such stupid string handling philosophy that doesn't fit well in that cathegory)
22:47:25 -!- Keymakere has joined.
22:48:20 <Keymakere> (as well, finally found a working dvd player; VLC media player. had to quit the movie because i started to fall asleep :))
22:48:25 <GregorR> As per usual, Gregor is the only person who actually LIKES pointer manipulation.
22:48:38 <Keymakere> (it's not boring but that always happens)
22:48:59 <Keymakere> btw, could someone tell me how thue works?
22:49:08 <Keymakere> i've been trying to understand it couple of times
22:49:17 <pgimeno> GregorR: I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too low-level for certain things
22:49:23 <Keymakere> the official manula doesn't tell almost anything
22:49:37 -!- Keymakere has changed nick to Keymaker.
22:49:38 <pgimeno> Thue is just pure and mere string substitution
22:50:06 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue_programming_language
22:50:32 <pgimeno> oops, follow the link to the spec, please
22:50:35 <KnX> ( understanding how thue work is a thing, but understanding how to work with thue .... :/ )
22:51:25 <pgimeno> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/thue/doc/thue.txt
22:51:57 <Keymaker> it doesn't explain almost anything (at least to me)
22:52:21 <GregorR> Keymaker: Have you taken a logic programming class?
22:52:50 <GregorR> Yeah, that goes well into the deep pit of logic programming :-P
22:53:03 <GregorR> Wooh PROLOG, right on the edge of esotiridom.
22:53:34 <Keymaker> like there isn't even mentioned any 0 or 1 in thue.txt yet those example programs are filled with them etc..
22:54:01 <pgimeno> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
22:55:14 <pgimeno> there are a couple find-and-replace rules and a starting string, that's all
22:55:19 <GregorR> BTW, is the esolangs page going to have something like an editor's choice of languages?
22:55:21 <pgimeno> well, there are special rules for I/O
22:55:57 <pgimeno> it's not meant to be a generic page, just the stuff I've dedicated to and perhaps a bit of preservation effort
22:56:15 <Keymaker> and as well there's @ and * and . and stuff like that not mentioned in the manual. well, maybe i should try harder to understand it. but someone should make a thue tutorial!
22:56:26 <Keymaker> (or at least explain the language to me so i could make one :p)
22:56:26 <GregorR> It'd be nice if it had a "preservation wiki" where people could just copy in stuff that was in threat of doom.
22:56:31 <pgimeno> these are just strings, not instructions
22:57:39 <pgimeno> calamari set up a wiki yesterday or so...
22:58:11 <Keymaker> i really would like to learn it
22:58:26 * pgimeno is drowning in Mozilla tabs and windows
22:59:04 <GregorR> Thue definitely looks like you'd need to take logic programming first ... at least learn prolog from some site online ... it's a fundamentally different programming theory.
22:59:14 * KnX wants tree-oriented Mozilla tabs
22:59:43 <GregorR> I think the tab-maintanence time would overwhelm the usefulness of such a setup, unless the tabs organized themselves somehow...
23:00:02 <GregorR> Maybe by site? (google tabs, esoteric.sange.fi tabs...)
23:00:06 <KnX> yes, they have to self-organize in some way
23:00:23 <pgimeno> yes, GregorR, it's a different paradigm but not so hard to try
23:00:49 <KnX> maybe replace the "open in tabs" by "open as new root" , "open as child" , "open as sibling"
23:01:10 <GregorR> I guess I'm exaggerating it's strangeness to the average functional/OO programmer.
23:01:51 <GregorR> Somebody run a third conversation, I want to make sure that the people who read this log have no idea what anybody's talking about.
23:02:42 <GregorR> I'll start a third conversation with self-indulgance: http://directnet.sourceforge.net/ 8-D
23:02:57 <GregorR> OK, about Mozilla tabs, don't you think that the several open options might make simple actions more confusing?
23:03:16 <GregorR> And have you ever heard of Caves of Gorlop? It's written in Prolog and it's rouge-like.
23:04:33 <GregorR> Yeah. But it's written in Prolog so it's really weird.
23:04:57 <GregorR> Merely because logic programming is probably not the best for rouge-like games :-P
23:05:29 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm, brief example ...
23:05:52 <GregorR> That's a stupid example...
23:06:09 <GregorR> But that would say that the predicate T is true where X (its parameter) is less than 3, or equal to 5.
23:06:11 <fizzie> I don't think (after a quick look) that Thue is _that_ much like logic programming. Sure, there's the non-determinism, but Thue seems simply to be an "algorithm" for applying unrestricted grammars, whereas I associate logic programming with a set of structured facts, predicates and a unification system for answering queries about it.
23:06:31 <GregorR> Well, grammars and logic programming are sort of related.
23:06:44 <fizzie> Everything's sort of related. :p
23:06:51 <GregorR> Way back when I was referring to logic programming classes, which is where one would generally first learn about grammars.
23:08:17 <GregorR> (Merely because grammars are easier to implement in logic programming than in functional/OO programming)
23:11:16 <fizzie> I think here (hut.fi) people usually learn about grammars on "T-79.148 introduction to theoretical computer science", which (for most people) comes before "T-93.540 logic programming". Parsing grammars is another thing, though. (Although intro-to-tcs did have some lecture slides and assignments about using CYK to parse context-free grammars.)
23:13:33 <GregorR> Wow. I have never seen class numbers look so foreign to me ...
23:16:10 <pgimeno> I think that Thue is the missing link between Goedel's theorem and Turing's halting problem
23:17:29 <fizzie> (The numbers are of the form <department>-<"section">.<id>. 'T' is for computer science ('tietotekniikka'), and 79 is the theoretical computer science lab, whereas 93 would be 'information processing science'.)
23:20:17 <GregorR> I ought to do some work ...
23:20:23 <GregorR> What with my sitting in a cube ...
23:21:47 <GregorR> I'm a "Software Build Engineer"
23:22:19 <GregorR> I keep software up to date across UNIX and GNU/Linux systems.
23:22:28 <GregorR> Open source software, specifically.
23:23:19 <fizzie> "But isn't that just apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade?" :p
23:24:37 <GregorR> There are SOOO many stupid issues.
23:24:51 <GregorR> "I'm using Perl 5.004 and I want PerlQt but not with the latest Qt, I need Qt 3.0"
23:25:18 <GregorR> If it was just about keeping everything at the latest, and it was just GNU/Linux, I wouldn't have this job :-P
23:33:33 <Keymaker> rgh.. i'm tired. or well, i don't feel very tired but brain doesn't work, so it's time to get some sleep. it's annoying when you can't concentrate thinking some stuff. like for example i would like to program in brainfuck now but can't even get program idea (or well, i have some but can't get those started with this brain).
23:33:47 <Keymaker> well, see you today later/earlier :)
23:34:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").
23:36:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's 01:30am localtime already.
23:36:55 <GregorR> I'm clearly on the wrong side of the planet ;)
23:37:21 <GregorR> pgimeno: If you go to sleep now and wake up early, you can be up in time to get specs on ORK ;)
23:37:28 <KnX> looks like google-translator can't help me , how do you name in english the parts of a finger ( in french it's phallanges FYI ) ?
23:37:53 <KnX> ( yes it's befunge-related )
23:38:04 <GregorR> Being a native English speaker, I ought to be able to answer that.
23:38:15 <GregorR> I'm going to vote knuckle, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for.
23:38:44 <fizzie> Being a non-native speaker, wordnet has "1. (3) phalanx -- (any of the bones (or phalanges) of the fingers or toes)" but I wouldn't have recognized that.
23:39:25 <pgimeno> what's the plural of phalanx?
23:39:41 <KnX> wordreferences doesn't find anything for phallanges
23:39:45 <GregorR> I don't think any native speaker would recognize that word, seems pretty, oh, esoteric to me.
23:40:06 <KnX> mmm, strange
23:40:32 <KnX> English->French with phalanx gives me phallange , but French->English with phallange doesn't give me anything
23:41:01 <KnX> i feel curious about they searching algorithm / database
23:41:10 <pgimeno> let me insist in the single "l"
23:41:24 <pgimeno> (that's the letter L not the number 1)
23:42:06 <GregorR> Spelled like that, that is.
23:42:21 <GregorR> Rather than phalanx, which I don't think anybody would recognize.
23:43:35 <KnX> it's just because i have always some difficulties to find names for my variables and structs , and for something a part of a fingerprint, i thought about a phalanxprint, but i think it won't help anybody to understand with a name like this ...
23:44:21 <pgimeno> heh, <http://images.google.com/images?q=phalanx> shows the hand's bones in the second page
23:45:41 <GregorR> Why not use your native tongue?
23:47:11 <KnX> i prefer english for C, kind of a standard
23:48:03 <GregorR> I guess I can see the logic behind that - if your code falls into the hands of somebody else, they'll likely at least speak some English.
23:48:13 <GregorR> Because English is taking over the planet >_>
23:48:20 <GregorR> Which is both a good thing and a bad thing.