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00:27:05 <arke> Colorado Springs: A guy walked into a little corner store with a shot gun and demanded all the cash from the cash drawer. After the cashier put the cash in a bag, the robber saw a bottle of scotch that he wanted behind the counter on the shelf. He told the cashier to put it in the bag as well, but he refused and said "Because I don't believe you are over 21." The robber said he was, but the clerk still refused to give it to him because he didn't believe him. At this 
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03:30:31 <{^Raven^}> nite peeps
03:35:03 <heatsink> nite rave
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10:23:44 <ZeroOne> arke: your message is cut at "At this"...
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13:26:10 <Keymaker> hi!
13:26:36 <Keymaker> good "news", i just rewrote my brainfuck program for calculating digital root
13:27:12 <Keymaker> the new version counts the digital root of pi's 10000 first decimals in about 6 seconds, while the old took about 41 seconds
13:27:47 <Keymaker> as well, the code's shorter and it uses a lot less memory cells
13:29:06 <Keymaker> the code seems to be 69 instructions shorter (401 bytes). almost half of it comes from printing "DIGITAL ROOT: " and new-line
13:30:09 <Keymaker> most probably the printing of that text could be made a lot smaller, but i don't really like searching the shortest ways to print text in bf
13:30:53 <{^Raven^}> where does you website live Keymaker?
13:31:17 <Keymaker> nonewhere :)
13:31:32 <Keymaker> it was at info1.info.tampere.fi/~lhetuhe
13:31:40 <Keymaker> but it's not there anymore
13:32:19 <Keymaker> i'm planning to buy one cheap hosting, and eventually i do it, once i invent good brainfuck related domain name
13:33:19 <Keymaker> (actually there reads on that link that the site is moved, but i just put it there beforehand :))
13:33:33 <Keymaker> the site isn't anywhere, or actaully there even wasn't a brainfuck site yet
13:33:43 <Keymaker> (just BFCC site)
13:35:29 <Keymaker> anyways: this new version seems to do the job with 2000000000+ executed instructions _less_ than the old version (so you can guess this is a big improvement in the program)
13:35:29 <{^Raven^}> how much server space/bandwidth would you need?
13:35:43 <Keymaker> probably 2000kb a month :p
13:36:12 <{^Raven^}> how much file space?
13:36:33 <Keymaker> probably not more than 1000kb :)
13:36:46 <Keymaker> oops
13:37:12 <Keymaker> i meant megabyte
13:38:46 <Keymaker> hmmm, or was 1000kb something like megabyte? my brain is ****ed
13:39:03 <{^Raven^}> 1 megabyte is 1024Kb
13:39:08 <{^Raven^}> in real money
13:39:12 <Keymaker> ah ok
13:39:34 <Keymaker> so the stuff fits easily under one megabyte
13:39:43 <Keymaker> but i will buy the site sooner or later
13:39:49 <Keymaker> the problem is only the name
13:40:13 <Keymaker> can't think of any good domain..
13:41:25 <{^Raven^}> bracketcommadotbracket.org aka [,.] ?
13:42:02 <Keymaker> hehe, that could be fun :)
13:42:20 <{^Raven^}> nice esoteric name and it translates to a typewriter proggy
13:42:32 <Keymaker> yeah
13:42:41 <Keymaker> although that program would never start :p
13:43:12 <Keymaker> plusbracketcommadotbracked.org would do the job
13:43:19 <Keymaker> +[,.]
13:44:01 <{^Raven^}> i freely give away that domain name idea
13:44:09 <Keymaker> :)
13:45:40 <Keymaker> couple of names that i've thought are
13:45:43 <Keymaker> nested-loops.org
13:46:24 <Keymaker> bf30000.org
13:47:15 <{^Raven^}> i like nested-loops.org
13:47:20 <Keymaker> yeah
13:47:29 <Keymaker> i like it too, maybe that would be a good choice
13:48:03 <{^Raven^}> or without the dash. nestedloops.org, easier to remember
13:48:15 <Keymaker> hmm yeah
13:48:47 <Keymaker> also, i can't find that name having any double meanings
13:48:57 <Keymaker> (gotta be careful when selecting name..)
13:49:19 <Keymaker> it probably doesn't mean anything other than inner/nested loops in a programming language..?
13:50:05 <{^Raven^}> AKAIK that's the only meaning
13:50:15 <Keymaker> ah, great :)
13:52:07 <Keymaker> hmmm.. can't really decide with or without the dash though..
13:53:18 <Keymaker> and as well, i think the org is better in this than net
13:53:31 <{^Raven^}> both are availiable, go for the one most visually appealing to you
13:53:42 <Keymaker> yeah
13:53:52 <{^Raven^}> i'd like to see a for-profit BrainFuck company ;) that would be something
13:54:13 <Keymaker> hehe :)
13:59:28 <Keymaker> sounds like a plan then, i try to decide with or without the dash.. and then order it.
14:27:45 <Keymaker> anyways, i must go now
14:27:51 <Keymaker> bye
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20:05:51 <Keymaker> hmm
20:08:13 <Keymaker> by the way; does anyone know a good mp3 player for linux? like something that's like winamp in windows, like something popular?
20:08:25 <Keymaker> or at least very good one
20:28:08 <Keymaker> is it just me or is many brainfuck "tutorial" on the net just actually there to try to make its author look "1337 h4x0r" because he can print his alias in this language? :) as well, it seems that many just covers basic things like ++++[>+++++<-] and says "have fun programming!" or limits to only badly made code of brainfuck program that prints out something..? :)
20:29:25 <cpressey> such are the limits of most people's ability to code in brainfuck, i suppose :)
20:29:46 <Keymaker> hehe
20:29:57 <Keymaker> and i consider myself stupid ;)
20:31:19 <cpressey> heh :) i like to think of it this way: being able to write complex brainfuck programs is not the kind of clever i am :)
20:31:33 <Keymaker> :)
20:31:41 <cpressey> ok, that grammar sounded a lot better in my head than it did in text, but you get the idea.
20:31:47 <Keymaker> yeah
20:34:14 <Keymaker> i can write basic brainfuck stuff like quine, bf interpreter, isbn number validity checker etc.. but i have no idea how to calculate pi ;) so, i'm quite stupid :p
20:34:40 <Keymaker> but i hope someday i can get something really awesome done.. ah..
20:38:30 <Keymaker> anyways, this tutorial thing is really disturbing.. i know nobody is that great when starting a new language, but i wouldn't write tutorial if i couldn't do much else than print hello world.. as well, i'm really annoyed many call this language limited or useless :\
20:40:14 <Keymaker> somebody should tell them: "if not interested, go BASIC" :p
20:43:14 <cpressey> i think calculating pi requires more number theory type knowledge than brainfuck programming ability anyway.
20:43:30 <Keymaker> hmm, can be true
20:43:54 <Keymaker> and number theory i don't have :)
20:44:30 <cpressey> and yeah, a _real_ tutorial would be nice.  something that demonstrates that it really is just as computationally powerful as java, or whatever is on most coder's minds these days.
20:44:56 <Keymaker> yeah
20:50:26 <Keymaker> there should be tutorial to cover more of the cool stuff in brainfuck instead of telling that one can't create something in it (it's just those "tutorial" writers' skills that suck, not the language!)
20:53:59 <Keymaker> there should be International Brainfuck Conference :)
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21:06:46 <Keymaker> idea! i could try thue-morse sequence program next in brainfuck. sounds like a good idea, yet highly possible to code. :)
21:58:13 <{^Raven^}> there are hundreds of BrainFuck tutorials that I have seen on the net. unfortunately it is justthe same 2 tutorials repeated ad nauseum
21:58:58 <Keymaker> yeah
22:00:24 <{^Raven^}> theoretically it has been proved that any possible program can be coded in BF. i have a few dozen book here that give examples of how to do lots of interesting things in various machine languages
22:01:04 <Keymaker> ah
22:01:10 <Keymaker> sounds like a neat books
22:01:15 <Keymaker> what they're called?
22:01:20 <{^Raven^}> maybe someone with the coding ability could create something similiar for BF
22:02:02 <{^Raven^}> z80 machine code for humans, arm the dabhand guide, 6502 assembly routines (600pages)
22:02:14 <{^Raven^}> and similiar
22:02:56 <Keymaker> ok :)
22:03:24 <{^Raven^}> i wonder if it would be possible to target gcc to cross-compile to bfasm which could then be comiled to BF
22:03:51 <Keymaker> uhh.. didn't get it :)
22:04:33 <{^Raven^}> gcc is a C compiler, you can setup different configurations so that it will compile code for whichever system you fancy
22:04:43 <Keymaker> ah
22:05:03 <Keymaker> so first compiling c to asm and that bfasm changes it to bf code?
22:05:21 <{^Raven^}> yup, preferably calamari's bfasm 
22:05:34 <Keymaker> that'd be quite neat :)
22:05:51 <{^Raven^}> it would be seriously freaky if someone managed to pull it off
22:05:57 <Keymaker> hehe
22:06:13 <{^Raven^}> a nice high-level language that can be compiled to brainfuck
22:06:20 <Keymaker> hehe :)
22:06:42 <Keymaker> can't see it being impossible :)
22:07:16 <{^Raven^}> kind of defeats the point of programming in pure machine language (aka +-,.[]<>) but IIRC they were using assembly language (aka bfasm) in the fifties
22:07:22 <Keymaker> then, naturally, it would be annoying to someone just translate already made c code and tell that he has done md5 program in brainfuck.. :\
22:07:25 <Keymaker> yeah
22:07:49 <Keymaker> although even if that kind of program appears, i won't use
22:07:57 <cpressey> the horrific part would be the stack management, i think :)
22:07:59 <Keymaker> i want to think at brainfuck level and code on it
22:08:19 <Keymaker> and not use any "code-generators" :)
22:08:22 <lament> yo
22:08:25 <lament> hi all
22:08:28 <Keymaker> hi
22:08:30 <{^Raven^}> hey there
22:08:37 <cpressey> hi lament 
22:09:18 <Keymaker> anyways, as a sidenote: if i ever see another brainfuck-to-c program written in c i just die
22:09:25 <Keymaker> i can't stand those
22:09:33 <Keymaker> and seen those at least ten today only..
22:09:51 <lament> just wait till calamari finishes his c-to-brainfuck
22:09:58 <{^Raven^}> hehe, everyone writes those, even i have - but at least mine is written in brainfuck
22:10:28 <Keymaker> yeah, they should do c-to-brainfuck as calamari (as lament just said :))
22:10:36 <Keymaker> that'll be quite neat
22:10:52 <{^Raven^}> i wouldn't be suprised if he wasn;t already working on it
22:14:16 <{^Raven^}> IMHO we all need to find a way to take esoteric languages to new heights of usefulness
22:14:27 <Keymaker> yeah
22:14:37 <Keymaker> there is no point in "normal" languages
22:14:51 <Keymaker> :) i'll select bf!
22:14:54 <lament> {^Raven^}: usefulness?
22:15:19 <{^Raven^}> a project i'm working on
22:15:33 <Keymaker> :)
22:16:05 <{^Raven^}> which is designed for all esoteric languages, not just brainfuck
22:16:10 <Keymaker> since there isn't a reason why the project should be coded in c++ instead of brainfuck, so....
22:16:22 <Keymaker> what is designed?
22:16:26 <lament> {^Raven^}: explain
22:16:32 <Keymaker> yea
22:17:06 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, i wonder if i should commit myself, i know it's possible but it's still in the design stage
22:17:24 <lament> commit to explaining?
22:17:29 <cpressey> like calamari's eso-os?
22:17:30 <Keymaker> :)
22:17:38 <Keymaker> i sense something like that
22:17:46 <{^Raven^}> i hope to introduce a paradigm shift in the way esoteric languages can be used
22:17:55 <Keymaker> ah
22:18:04 <Keymaker> that sounds pretty interesting :)
22:18:32 <{^Raven^}> all my BF programs are already executable on the Unix command line which was the first step
22:19:15 <{^Raven^}> ./HelloWorld.b and I already have pure BrainFuck scripts running in my CGI bin
22:19:23 <{^Raven^}> but IMHO that's not enough
22:19:43 <Keymaker> :)
22:20:49 <{^Raven^}> i want to be able to generate a dynamic website in BF without needing mod_bf
22:20:58 <Keymaker> hmmm
22:21:07 <Keymaker> (what's mod_bf?)
22:21:08 <cpressey> like #!/usr/local/bin/bf ?
22:21:23 <cpressey> except make some wrapper that strips out the first line of text
22:22:03 <{^Raven^}> mod_bf is an apache module which you can use to make dynamic sites, you can pass parameters in the URL which are passed as input to a BF program
22:22:06 <{^Raven^}> i don't use it
22:22:39 <cpressey> mod_bf is kind of lame from what i hear
22:22:42 <Keymaker> i see
22:22:50 <Keymaker> well, wouldn't some php script work?
22:22:54 <{^Raven^}> it has some severe security implications
22:23:57 <{^Raven^}> PHP would probably work fine, same with perl/java/etc but I'd prefer to use plain BF scripts
22:24:15 <{^Raven^}> with the #!/usr/bin/bf header - of course :)
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22:25:04 <{^Raven^}> hi calamari
22:25:10 <Keymaker> hi
22:25:20 <Keymaker> (this channel is strangely active today :))
22:25:30 <cpressey> yo calamari :)
22:27:11 <lament> calamari: we were just talking about you
22:27:14 <lament> calamari: how you never do anything :P
22:41:08 <Keymaker> hmm.. zzZz.. i'll go to sleep. been fun today here :) keep fillin' the logs!
22:41:18 <{^Raven^}> nite
22:41:19 <Keymaker> nite
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22:45:31 <{^Raven^}> calamari, i like your site, you've got some really interesting stuff there
22:47:49 <{^Raven^}> BFASM is a very impressive piece of software
22:52:36 <cpressey> {^Raven^}: is calamari's EsoAPI like what you had in mind?
22:52:54 <{^Raven^}> similiar but completely different
22:53:35 <cpressey> how so?
22:56:12 <{^Raven^}> the API interface will be almost the same but with a different range of functionality
22:57:01 <{^Raven^}> more suited to day-to-day programming tasks
22:57:36 <cpressey> hmm.  well, it could be extended, obviously.
22:57:47 <cpressey> my criticism of it as it stands is that it's not quite general enough.
22:59:11 <{^Raven^}> and I want to make something that can be applied to every esoteric language, including malbolge - but i'll not be writing the demonstration code for that one
22:59:48 <cpressey> right, that's what i meant.
23:00:03 <cpressey> having the return code appear in a memory location isn't general enough, for example.
23:00:13 <cpressey> you might not have memory locations :)
23:00:19 <cpressey> it should appear on the input channel...
23:01:09 <{^Raven^}> both could be available
23:02:51 <cpressey> well, there's an issue of opacity.  it would be nice for the layer to be able to work with existing interpreters without modifying them, meaning, you couldn't play with the memory locations directly anyway.
23:03:59 <{^Raven^}> with the free availiability of interpreter source code adding functionality to any interpreter should be trivial
23:07:47 <arke> whens the next BF competition?
23:08:39 <cpressey> {^Raven^}: that's still not quite general enough for my taste.
23:17:30 <cpressey> but, until i write something up, my taste is a moot point :)
23:17:35 <cpressey> i'll write something up.
23:18:16 <{^Raven^}> what are you thinking of?
23:24:28 <cpressey> like EsoAPI, but more general.  a layer that lives between the i/o and the os, that translates special input/output to/from the program, into system calls.
23:24:54 <{^Raven^}> that is exactly what i am coding
23:30:50 <cpressey> cool.
23:35:38 <{^Raven^}> now i've said it in public i hope no one steals it
23:35:39 <{^Raven^}> :)
23:36:20 <{^Raven^}> although you could say i took the idea from calamari, i found EsoAPI afterwards
23:37:16 <cpressey> hmm, i don't think of it that way.  it's essentially a protocol; it _should_ be public.
23:37:54 <cpressey> if the internet didn't have peer-reviewed rfc's, the world would be a mess :)
23:38:07 <cpressey> of course, this is esoteric programming, so you could easily make a counter argument...
23:38:30 <cpressey> that things should be as obscure as possible ;)
23:41:17 <{^Raven^}> I'd like to make the OS abstraction layer as clear as possible. The languages using it are obscure enough already
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