←2004-10 2004-11 2004-12→ ↑2004 ↑all
2004-11-01
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2004-11-02
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07:27:59 <heatsink> Ah, clog is back
07:29:26 <heatsink> so if clog isn't logging the channel, what is?
07:30:19 <mtve> it does, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/04.11.01
07:33:13 <heatsink> How does it log when it's not in the channel?
07:34:06 <heatsink> http://meme.b9.com/clog/esoteric/04.11.02
07:34:17 <heatsink> maybe that's cmeme?
07:34:57 <heatsink> anyway, goodnight.
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2004-11-03
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04:39:01 <heatsink> Looks like some of those voting softwares were written in bf: http://www.nbc4.tv/elex2004natl/index.html
04:39:33 <heatsink> Click on California and read the box. Also, click on Maine.
05:01:14 <deltab> the state results box?
05:02:45 <heatsink> yes
05:03:04 <heatsink> oh, CA looks okay now
05:03:22 <heatsink> ME still has the doppelganger candidate
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2004-11-04
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15:30:34 <mtve> chris?
22:52:59 <cpressey_> hello :)
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22:58:19 <fizzie> the befunge person?
2004-11-05
00:16:25 <cpressey> yep
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23:13:32 <mesk> h!
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2004-11-06
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2004-11-07
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03:31:30 <jDoctor> woos
03:31:37 <jDoctor> this place EXISTs
03:31:47 <heatsink> ssh, don't tell anyone!
03:31:56 <jDoctor> wont.
03:32:28 <jDoctor> but if everyone came here -- you know -- to keep the secret, would it still be a secret?
03:33:34 <heatsink> No. Everyone would have to leave here to keep the secret.
03:33:53 <jDoctor> so uh whats the norm discussion here?
03:34:06 <heatsink> nothin'
03:34:22 <heatsink> This channel isn't active most of the time
03:34:33 <slava> lets make it active!
03:34:38 <heatsink> A while ago, someone wrote a C -> brainfuck compiler
03:34:41 <slava> wow
03:34:54 <heatsink> And before that, I wrote an unlambda -> scheme compiler
03:35:17 <heatsink> The conversation about implementing such things can get interesting
03:35:33 <slava> i'm working on stack effect inference for postfix languages
03:35:48 * heatsink has no idea what that is
03:36:05 <heatsink> what is that?
03:36:21 <slava> eg, the stack effect of 2 2 + is [ 0 | 1 ] because it takes no values from the stack, but leaves one
03:36:38 <slava> the stack effect of dup * is [ 1 | 1 ], because it takes one value, duplicates it, multiplies the two duplicates, to yield one value
03:37:02 <slava> it gets more complicated when you have conditionals and recursion, but i have the theory worked out, as well as an algorithm
03:37:07 <heatsink> Doesn't 2 2 + take two values from the stack and then add one?
03:37:20 <slava> + by itself has effect [ 2 | 1 ]
03:37:29 <heatsink> oh I see
03:37:30 <slava> but 2 2 + has effect [ 0 | 1 ] since the input parameters to + are provided already
03:37:48 <heatsink> so what is the stack effect of printf?
03:37:56 <deltab> 2 has effect [ 0 | 1 ]
03:38:09 <jDoctor> printf is 0 | 1
03:38:13 <jDoctor> I mean
03:38:16 <jDoctor> 1 | 0
03:38:17 <slava> heatsink, no, variadic functions are not handled
03:38:22 <heatsink> ok
03:38:41 <slava> there is an algebra
03:38:57 <slava> [ a | b ] * [ c | d ] = [ a + max(0,c-b) | d + max(0,b-c) ]
03:39:16 <heatsink> os that composition?
03:39:17 <slava> so the stack effect of 2 2 + is [ 0 | 1 ] * [ 0 | 1 ] * [ 2 | 1 ]
03:39:28 <slava> and you can calculate this using the above formula as [ 0 | 1 ]
03:40:12 <jDoctor> thats some cool stuff
03:40:18 <heatsink> This looks useful
03:40:27 <jDoctor> it should lead to computer-generated stack effects, right?
03:40:44 <heatsink> You could type-check postfix languages, and express them in prefix or infix form
03:41:16 <slava> i'm working on type inference next.
03:41:29 <heatsink> do both branches of an if-then-else have to have the same stack effect to be legal?
03:41:54 <jDoctor> you cant inference an ifte, can you..
03:41:54 <slava> they don't have to be equal, but balanced. the balance of [ a | b ] is b-a
03:42:33 <heatsink> oic
03:42:34 <slava> so [ dup * ] [ ] ifte is valid
03:42:44 <slava> since after the ifte, the stack height is constant, sonce the two branches are balanced
03:42:56 <slava> effect of dup * is [ 1 | 1 ], effect of [ ] is [ 0 | 0 ]
03:42:58 <slava> and 0-0 = 1-1
03:43:11 <slava> so the effect of [ dup * ] [ ] ifte is the maximum element of the two
03:43:16 <slava> which is [ 1 | 1 ] in this case
03:43:39 <heatsink> ok
03:43:54 <slava> this is valid, since i have proofs that balanced sets of stack effects behave just like the maximimal element under pairwise composition
03:44:10 <heatsink> Do you have problems with algorithms that use a sentinel value to terminate recursion?
03:44:26 <slava> words that take variable numbers of arguments off the stack?
03:44:40 <heatsink> yes, and then put the same number of arguments back on
03:44:47 <slava> i don't support these.
03:45:17 <heatsink> ok
03:46:47 <heatsink> What language syntax do you use? Is it taken from an existing language?
03:47:02 <slava> factor
03:47:51 <heatsink> Hey, the inventor of factor is named slava too! what a coincidence!
03:47:57 <heatsink> ;)
03:47:57 <jDoctor> hehe..
03:48:06 <jDoctor> sssh... secret
03:48:26 <heatsink> ooh... sorry.
03:48:33 <slava> no secret
03:48:44 <slava> heatsink, the algorithm and algebra is applicable to any postfix language though
03:48:50 <jDoctor> is that the secret? that these is no secret?
03:49:02 <jDoctor> s/these/there
03:49:49 <heatsink> I'm trying to learn type inference. Can you recommend any references?
03:51:06 <heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
03:51:40 <slava> yes, but I don't infer stack effects of code involving them.
03:51:51 <heatsink> oh.
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08:28:34 <fizzie> why do you have those discussions at 05-06am?
08:39:28 <heatsink> I don't
08:44:29 <fizzie> 05:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
08:44:32 <fizzie> see, with proof.
09:30:01 <heatsink> 11:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
09:30:03 <heatsink> 12:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
09:30:07 <heatsink> 01:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
09:30:12 <heatsink> :p
09:30:23 <heatsink> Well, I'm sure it was 5:50 _somewhere_.
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18:08:01 <andreou> hm
18:08:06 <andreou> heads up
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22:22:04 <lindi-> anybody thought about building a smart compiler that could optimize by replacing poor algorithms with better ones?
22:22:44 <lindi-> so if the programmer has used e.g. bubble sort the compiler would detect that and actually use quick sort
22:26:19 <fizzie> well: algorithm detection is non-trivial, and it's pretty hard to make sure there are no unexpected effects. "normal" optimizations are hard enough. haven't heard of any compiler that'd do something like that.
22:28:13 <fizzie> methinks it's at least much simpler to provide general algorithms as libraries, and have the programmer use those. why would anyone use bubble sort when the c standard library has a relatively working qsort?
22:28:58 <lindi-> no idea
22:29:31 <fizzie> of course implementing something like that might be an interesting exercise, I don't deny that.
22:30:17 <lindi-> indeed, i think i should start by defining some really simple language and experiment with it
22:31:18 <lindi-> ok, but if you ever hear anything like this please let me know :)
22:31:20 <fizzie> not related, but mooz could perhaps say something here about his "random programs" experiments.
22:31:37 <lindi-> hmm
22:31:40 <fizzie> it's esoteric enough.
22:32:14 <fizzie> apparently he keeps finding composite-number-factoring algorithms at a surprisingly high rate. :p
22:32:16 <lindi-> i thought that if you could express e.g. quick sort in 6 bytes then it would be possible to simply brute force all possible algorithms that fit in 6 bytes
22:34:12 <lindi-> it should prove that the new algorithm 1) does the same as the original algorithm and 2) is faster in all/some/average case/s
22:35:37 <fizzie> me will probably try to sleep some now, have that mat-1.403 exam tomorrow. infinite-dimensional vector spaces, path integrals of complex functions using residues, QR factorizations of matrices. yay!
22:35:52 <lindi-> and i have mat-1.411 :P
22:36:01 <fizzie> is that C1?
22:36:04 <lindi-> yeah
22:36:25 <lindi-> discrete math this time
22:36:34 <fizzie> seems like it's the standard 'second mid-term of maths courses' day tomorrow.
22:37:11 <fizzie> besides, I have to demo my scheme-exercise (11 months past the original due date) tomorrow. :p
22:37:13 <lindi-> yep. and indeed, it's probably wise to sleep now
22:37:33 <fizzie> hey, where did my ircnet connection go.
22:37:46 <lindi-> anybody else on the channel: feel free to comment
22:39:19 <lindi-> so, good night
22:40:55 <fizzie> night.
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2004-11-08
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03:57:21 <cpressey> heatsink: re type inference: the dragon book contains a good description & algorithm
03:58:02 <heatsink> okay, I'll check it
03:58:04 <heatsink> ty
03:58:42 <cpressey> np
03:58:57 <cpressey> it still took me a loooong time to figure out exactly what was going on with it :)
03:59:20 <cpressey> replacing the greek letters with T1, T2, T3 and walking myself through abunch of examples seemed to help
03:59:43 <heatsink> does it use sequent notation?
04:00:04 * heatsink sees that in papers about typing
04:00:20 * heatsink has nearly gotten used to it
04:02:47 <cpressey> no
04:02:57 <heatsink> One of my class textbooks had a mathematical derivation that used lowercase zeta, xi, and word-final sigma
04:03:44 <cpressey> word-final :)
04:03:46 <cpressey> cute
04:04:21 <heatsink> The cute part was, they never pointed out the relationship between the three variables
04:04:33 <heatsink> And if you think they're all the same variable, the math works out correctly
04:05:53 <heatsink> (since they look almost the same)
04:06:31 <cpressey> silly textbook publishers.
04:06:34 <cpressey> anyway, i have to be off
04:06:37 <cpressey> catch you later.
04:06:41 <heatsink> ok
04:06:43 <heatsink> bye
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21:49:38 <lindi-> mooz-: what language did you use in your 'random programs' experiment?
2004-11-09
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2004-11-11
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05:04:57 <calamari_> hi
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05:30:39 <heatsink> hi
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2004-11-12
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01:19:56 <moroman> buenas noches.
01:21:10 <moroman> hoolaaaa...
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03:11:15 <lament> ha!
03:11:31 <lament> i have somehow forgotten about this channel for a while.
03:11:34 <lament> too busy playing go
03:12:22 <heatsink> you didna miss much
03:12:42 <lament> judging by the title, yeah
03:12:49 <heatsink> :)
03:28:03 <calamari_> I managed to scare a couple other students by showing them unlambda the other day
03:28:39 <calamari_> of course I don't understand that one either.. hehe
03:29:42 <calamari_> I think they "liked" the basic compiler better though. Something about seeing a screen full of bf seems to make someone freak out
03:37:59 <heatsink> you wrote a compiler for basic?
05:15:00 <calamari_> yeah basic -> bf
05:15:41 <heatsink> wow, I've never written a compiler from one esoteric language to another :)
05:15:46 <heatsink> good job :)
05:16:40 <calamari_> basic is still my favorite language, although Java is growing on me
05:16:50 <heatsink> eew.
05:16:54 <calamari_> hehe
05:16:55 <heatsink> what's wrong with python?
05:17:14 <calamari_> I'm still learning it. seems cool so far
05:18:20 <calamari_> one thing I miss, which is kind of weird.. is not having types in python. Makes it harder to see what something is, because usually a type can be syntax highlighted
05:18:22 * heatsink doesn't know how to program in a language without first-class functions
05:19:13 <heatsink> all python objects are the same type, it's just the default implementations of most methods raise errors :)
05:19:22 <calamari_> I also wish there were some kind of closing brace or end-if, as silly as that sounds also
05:19:26 <deltab> 051621Z #esoteric <calamari_> basic is still my favorite language, although Java is growing on me
05:19:38 <deltab> there's a lotion you can apply to the affected area
05:19:57 <calamari_> deltab: hopefully not C#.. that makes me allergic to my computer
05:20:30 <calamari_> I keep meaning to install linux again so I can play with c#
05:20:43 <heatsink> I thought c# was a .net thing
05:20:51 <deltab> it is
05:20:52 <calamari_> isn't there mono?
05:21:00 <heatsink> oh yea
05:21:05 <calamari_> I refuse to put xp on my computer
05:21:12 <heatsink> XP
05:21:16 <heatsink> XD
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10:54:31 <Keymaker> 'morning
11:27:03 <Keymaker> yeah, it is silent . . .
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15:27:50 <jcam100> hi guys!
15:28:10 <jcam100> anyone about?
15:28:15 <jcam100> i got a quick question
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01:16:57 <lament> hi
01:32:31 <calamari_> hi lament
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17:33:08 <MadBrain> Uh, hello
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04:34:07 <Nioate> hi
04:34:39 <lament> hi!
04:46:04 <Nioate> what goes on here
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10:16:53 <fizzie> apparently not much.
17:34:03 <Nioate> I see that
22:29:41 <lament> heh
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22:39:11 <bot_builder> someone needs to submit a path example to http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/p.html
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