01:33:45 -!- lament has joined. 03:11:05 -!- Toreun has joined. 05:41:39 -!- Toreun has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:42:08 -!- Toreun has joined. 06:44:42 -!- lament has quit ("Money is the answer to everything (Ecclesiastes 10:19)"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 17:31:30 -!- Toreun has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:31:30 -!- mtve has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:31:30 -!- cmeme has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:31:31 -!- asdasd_ has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:31:31 -!- Taaus has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:32:23 -!- Toreun has joined. 17:32:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:32:23 -!- mtve has joined. 17:32:23 -!- asdasd_ has joined. 17:32:23 -!- Taaus has joined. 17:33:59 -!- Toreun has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:33:59 -!- mtve has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:34:00 -!- cmeme has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:34:01 -!- asdasd_ has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:34:01 -!- Taaus has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:34:41 -!- Toreun has joined. 17:34:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:34:41 -!- mtve has joined. 17:34:41 -!- asdasd_ has joined. 17:34:41 -!- Taaus has joined. 20:10:43 -!- Toreun has quit. 20:10:49 -!- Toreun has joined. 22:05:19 -!- lament has joined. 22:52:34 I've done it. 22:52:58 my esolang is turing complete 22:53:03 yay 23:10:07 next you need formal proof of correctness for your interpreter. 23:11:56 for which interpreter? 23:12:09 my brainfuck interpreter or my esolang interpreter? 23:14:56 well, optimally 'both'. first one to confirm the turing-completeness and the second one to make sure you have something to reliably run it on. 23:16:28 well, the first thing I should do is convert my esolang interpreter to some sort of compiled language 23:17:40 what's it written now in? 23:17:46 PHP 23:18:05 I would've done it in C but I like having automatic typecasting 23:18:18 gasp 23:18:19 php 23:18:21 ah. how peculiar. I haven't ever written non-web-related php. 23:18:26 I always do 23:18:33 actually I think my php doesn't have the cli module compiled in. 23:18:39 it's such an easy language to use 23:18:46 doesn't it come with it? 23:18:56 yes, but it's not compiled in. 23:19:04 felt it was unnecessary. 23:19:11 i thought php sucked. 23:19:45 I just think it's a bit boring language. it's not very special in any way. 23:19:57 yeah 23:20:12 fizzie: i thought it sucked in that it was designed for doing things that shouldn't be done 23:20:21 shouldn't be done? 23:20:22 (i.e. embedding code in html pages) 23:20:34 well, but you don't need to do that. 23:20:41 you think code shouldn't be embedded into html? 23:20:42 fizzie: that's what it was designed for. 23:20:50 Toreun: of course it shouldn't. 23:21:02 lament: why not? 23:21:40 Toreun: because the logic of an application is normally independent from its appearance 23:21:49 oh, that's what you mean 23:23:33 but I don't think people would guess the language was designed to be embedded in html pages, based on only the language. 23:24:05 if you don't count the "" parts as the language. 23:24:43 * lament shrugs 23:24:55 as far as i know, the whole design philosophy is based on that. 23:25:00 it's just a general purpose language, in my opinion... just for quick program development 23:25:05 i'm sure the decisions made were extremely far-reaching 23:25:23 and permeate the whole language 23:25:26 I don't see much "design philosophy" in php. 23:25:36 mind you, i don't know php, so i can't give concrete examples 23:25:40 fizzie: that's part of it :) 23:26:11 apart from the error outputting, which is in HTML, and the HTML/XML built in functions, it's not really /made for/ web development 23:27:05 generally I just think php is boring. it does the normal imperative programming basics. oh, there's something I dislike: the "object system", if it can be called that. 23:27:32 well, it is very primitive 23:27:48 verily, and quite obviously added as an afterthought. 23:27:55 but PHP 5 attempts to fix that 23:28:43 not successfully, of course 23:28:47 on the positive side, the few times I've written php the code hasn't turned out to look like line noise, which is what happens when I try perl. 23:29:19 in general, I find languages with a <=> operator are scary 23:29:53 for some reason with perl there's the subconscious urge to constantly do stuff like take advantage of the "$_" default-variable, and write lots of regexps. 23:30:22 I'm getting into regexp habits, even in PHP 23:30:35 but in php those are confined inside function calls. 23:30:38 that's also part of the design philosophy. 23:30:52 in perl the regexen are free and out there, ready to bite the programmer. 23:31:16 Toreun: of course php is made for web development 23:31:28 well, originally 23:31:29 "personal home page" means just that 23:32:18 official explanation goes that PHP is a recursive acronym for "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor", actually. 23:32:25 web-development-related, still. 23:32:40 fizzie: the original name was the one i mentioned 23:32:54 but yeah, "hypertext preprocessor" isn't much better :) 23:33:12 the language really isn't anything special, so it isn't specialized for any one task 23:33:17 neither the hypertext nor the preprocessor part. 23:33:17 I wouldn't know, when I first heard about php it was 3.x already. 23:33:28 Toreun: why is it called "hypertext preprocessor" then? 23:33:51 I mean it's more general purpose 23:33:54 Toreun: are you sure it's not specialized for preprocessing hypertext? :) 23:34:07 it is meant to be, it's not very good at being specialized though 23:34:15 i see :| 23:34:22 well, it's trying to grow out of that. 23:34:33 so the only reason it's not specialized is because it tries to be specialized, and fails? 23:34:36 a great language, indeed. 23:34:55 well, it is just a general language that's pretty easy to use 23:35:17 actually I think it was designed originally to be specialized, and then they've attempted to revise/retrofit the language to be more general-purpose. 23:35:38 (just a guess, I haven't seen 1.x or 2.x versions.) 23:35:52 originally it was called phtml, wasn't it? 23:36:22 "PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML" 23:36:27 from the php site. 23:36:41 that's just advertisement 23:36:58 also: " PHP is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is borrowed from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write dynamically generated pages quickly." 23:37:02 from the faq. 23:37:10 Toreun: um. 23:37:29 considering that I use sed for general-purpose-stuff, I don't think I can judge people who use php. 23:38:16 really, I use whatever language that I'm most comfortable with at a given time for quick programs 23:38:48 they're definitely not trying to hide the web-development-aspect. also from the faq, "The biggest advantage of PHP over Perl is that PHP was designed for scripting for the web where Perl was designed to do a lot more and can because of this get very complicated." 23:39:18 hm 23:39:30 on the other hand, javascript was designed solely for client-side web page scripting 23:39:34 but it's a fairly nice language 23:39:54 I don't particularly like javascript 23:40:14 and sed was decided for stream editing ascii text, but it's a.. fairly.. nice.. oh, who am I kidding? it's horrid! 23:40:25 fizzie: :))) 23:40:33 fizzie: try the 12 step program 23:40:40 :-þ 23:40:49 mooz wrote a rather nice javascript befunge interpreter thing. 23:41:24 the interpreter functions are written in a "pseudocode-like notation", so to say, so the interpreter can be changed on-the-fly. 23:41:46 (the code it uses to execute befunge is in a textfield on the page containing the interpreter code.) 23:41:53 javascript has a very cute object system 23:42:13 and a nice, small core 23:42:28 (http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if someone's interested) 23:44:30 that's a pretty complex interpreter 23:44:34 http://uk.php.net/history 23:45:34 originally 'Personal Home Page Tools' 23:45:51 yes, but you can easily add befunge commands by simply editing the stuff in the textfield. 23:46:15 the most i did in javascript was a thue interpreter. 23:46:24 I don't think PHP is all that good for the sort of web development it's used for nowadays 23:46:29 hmm... I wonder if my lang is similar enough to befunge to use this interpreter 23:47:31 http://lament.hypermart.net/thue.html 23:48:16 I'm getting errors, lament 23:48:51 Toreun: you are also very informative 23:49:05 I'll try it on moz, and see if it works 23:49:13 but the animate button returned "Object Expected" 23:49:23 line 127 to be specific 23:49:33 i don't think it works at all 23:49:43 wonder if that jakarta tapestry thing is nice. 23:49:59 yeah, it isn't implemented 23:50:04 our "data structures" course exercise management system uses it. 23:50:13 probably becasue i didn't find how to do timers 23:51:05 javascript documentation is a bit messy. the core language has a nice, readable spec, but the objects provided by the browsers are less documented. outdated netscape docs turned out to be the best references, iirc. 23:51:30 this when I last tried to write something in javascript. 23:52:11 yeah, actually getting your program to output something is the most painful part 23:52:11 I've never really tried to write anything useful in javascript 23:52:50 * lament wonders if either the befunge or the thue interpreters qualify as useful 23:52:51 hm. that 'tapestry' framework sounds like a good idea, but it's java. java makes me feel queasy. 23:53:10 I can't stand java 23:53:13 it's too roundabout 23:53:17 well, I haven't even written a befunge interpreter. (in javascript, I mean.) poor me. 23:57:08 wow this befunge interpreter is really nice