< 1076376825 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076382665 0 :Toreun!Anarquis-e@ool-4354b860.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076391699 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076391728 0 :Toreun!Anarquis-e@ool-4354b860.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076395482 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Money is the answer to everything (Ecclesiastes 10:19)" < 1076399999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1076400000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434290 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434290 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434290 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434291 0 :asdasd_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434291 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434343 0 :Toreun!Anarquis-e@ool-4354b860.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434343 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434343 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434343 0 :asdasd_!antilove@zolo.freelsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434343 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434439 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434439 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434440 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434441 0 :asdasd_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434441 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1076434481 0 :Toreun!Anarquis-e@ool-4354b860.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434481 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434481 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434481 0 :asdasd_!antilove@zolo.freelsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076434481 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1076443843 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1076443849 0 :Toreun!Anarquis-e@ool-4354b860.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076450719 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1076453554 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it. < 1076453578 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my esolang is turing complete < 1076453583 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1076454607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next you need formal proof of correctness for your interpreter. < 1076454716 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for which interpreter? < 1076454729 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brainfuck interpreter or my esolang interpreter? < 1076454896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, optimally 'both'. first one to confirm the turing-completeness and the second one to make sure you have something to reliably run it on. < 1076454988 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the first thing I should do is convert my esolang interpreter to some sort of compiled language < 1076455060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it written now in? < 1076455066 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP < 1076455085 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would've done it in C but I like having automatic typecasting < 1076455098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gasp < 1076455099 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :php < 1076455101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. how peculiar. I haven't ever written non-web-related php. < 1076455106 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always do < 1076455113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think my php doesn't have the cli module compiled in. < 1076455119 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's such an easy language to use < 1076455126 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it come with it? < 1076455136 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it's not compiled in. < 1076455144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :felt it was unnecessary. < 1076455151 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought php sucked. < 1076455185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think it's a bit boring language. it's not very special in any way. < 1076455197 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1076455212 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i thought it sucked in that it was designed for doing things that shouldn't be done < 1076455221 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be done? < 1076455222 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. embedding code in html pages) < 1076455234 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, but you don't need to do that. < 1076455241 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think code shouldn't be embedded into html? < 1076455242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's what it was designed for. < 1076455250 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: of course it shouldn't. < 1076455262 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: why not? < 1076455300 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: because the logic of an application is normally independent from its appearance < 1076455309 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's what you mean < 1076455413 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think people would guess the language was designed to be embedded in html pages, based on only the language. < 1076455445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't count the "" parts as the language. < 1076455483 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1076455495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i know, the whole design philosophy is based on that. < 1076455500 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a general purpose language, in my opinion... just for quick program development < 1076455505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure the decisions made were extremely far-reaching < 1076455523 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and permeate the whole language < 1076455526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see much "design philosophy" in php. < 1076455536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, i don't know php, so i can't give concrete examples < 1076455540 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's part of it :) < 1076455571 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the error outputting, which is in HTML, and the HTML/XML built in functions, it's not really /made for/ web development < 1076455625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally I just think php is boring. it does the normal imperative programming basics. oh, there's something I dislike: the "object system", if it can be called that. < 1076455652 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it is very primitive < 1076455668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verily, and quite obviously added as an afterthought. < 1076455675 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PHP 5 attempts to fix that < 1076455723 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not successfully, of course < 1076455727 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the positive side, the few times I've written php the code hasn't turned out to look like line noise, which is what happens when I try perl. < 1076455759 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, I find languages with a <=> operator are scary < 1076455793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason with perl there's the subconscious urge to constantly do stuff like take advantage of the "$_" default-variable, and write lots of regexps. < 1076455822 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting into regexp habits, even in PHP < 1076455835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in php those are confined inside function calls. < 1076455838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also part of the design philosophy. < 1076455852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in perl the regexen are free and out there, ready to bite the programmer. < 1076455876 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: of course php is made for web development < 1076455888 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, originally < 1076455889 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"personal home page" means just that < 1076455938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :official explanation goes that PHP is a recursive acronym for "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor", actually. < 1076455945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web-development-related, still. < 1076455960 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the original name was the one i mentioned < 1076455974 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, "hypertext preprocessor" isn't much better :) < 1076455992 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language really isn't anything special, so it isn't specialized for any one task < 1076455997 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither the hypertext nor the preprocessor part. < 1076455997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't know, when I first heard about php it was 3.x already. < 1076456008 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: why is it called "hypertext preprocessor" then? < 1076456031 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's more general purpose < 1076456034 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: are you sure it's not specialized for preprocessing hypertext? :) < 1076456047 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is meant to be, it's not very good at being specialized though < 1076456055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see :| < 1076456062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's trying to grow out of that. < 1076456073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only reason it's not specialized is because it tries to be specialized, and fails? < 1076456076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a great language, indeed. < 1076456095 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it is just a general language that's pretty easy to use < 1076456117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think it was designed originally to be specialized, and then they've attempted to revise/retrofit the language to be more general-purpose. < 1076456138 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just a guess, I haven't seen 1.x or 2.x versions.) < 1076456152 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally it was called phtml, wasn't it? < 1076456182 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML" < 1076456187 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the php site. < 1076456201 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just advertisement < 1076456218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: " PHP is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is borrowed from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write dynamically generated pages quickly." < 1076456222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the faq. < 1076456230 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: um. < 1076456249 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that I use sed for general-purpose-stuff, I don't think I can judge people who use php. < 1076456296 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, I use whatever language that I'm most comfortable with at a given time for quick programs < 1076456328 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're definitely not trying to hide the web-development-aspect. also from the faq, "The biggest advantage of PHP over Perl is that PHP was designed for scripting for the web where Perl was designed to do a lot more and can because of this get very complicated." < 1076456358 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1076456370 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, javascript was designed solely for client-side web page scripting < 1076456374 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a fairly nice language < 1076456394 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't particularly like javascript < 1076456414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sed was decided for stream editing ascii text, but it's a.. fairly.. nice.. oh, who am I kidding? it's horrid! < 1076456425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :))) < 1076456433 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: try the 12 step program < 1076456440 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-þ < 1076456449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mooz wrote a rather nice javascript befunge interpreter thing. < 1076456484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter functions are written in a "pseudocode-like notation", so to say, so the interpreter can be changed on-the-fly. < 1076456506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the code it uses to execute befunge is in a textfield on the page containing the interpreter code.) < 1076456513 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :javascript has a very cute object system < 1076456533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a nice, small core < 1076456548 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if someone's interested) < 1076456670 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty complex interpreter < 1076456674 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://uk.php.net/history < 1076456734 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally 'Personal Home Page Tools' < 1076456751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you can easily add befunge commands by simply editing the stuff in the textfield. < 1076456775 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most i did in javascript was a thue interpreter. < 1076456784 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think PHP is all that good for the sort of web development it's used for nowadays < 1076456789 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I wonder if my lang is similar enough to befunge to use this interpreter < 1076456851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lament.hypermart.net/thue.html < 1076456896 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting errors, lament < 1076456931 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toreun: you are also very informative < 1076456945 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it on moz, and see if it works < 1076456953 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the animate button returned "Object Expected" < 1076456963 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 127 to be specific < 1076456973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it works at all < 1076456983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if that jakarta tapestry thing is nice. < 1076456999 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it isn't implemented < 1076457004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our "data structures" course exercise management system uses it. < 1076457013 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably becasue i didn't find how to do timers < 1076457065 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :javascript documentation is a bit messy. the core language has a nice, readable spec, but the objects provided by the browsers are less documented. outdated netscape docs turned out to be the best references, iirc. < 1076457090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this when I last tried to write something in javascript. < 1076457131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, actually getting your program to output something is the most painful part < 1076457131 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never really tried to write anything useful in javascript < 1076457170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if either the befunge or the thue interpreters qualify as useful
< 1076457171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. that 'tapestry' framework sounds like a good idea, but it's java. java makes me feel queasy. < 1076457190 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't stand java < 1076457193 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too roundabout < 1076457197 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I haven't even written a befunge interpreter. (in javascript, I mean.) poor me. < 1076457428 0 :Toreun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow this befunge interpreter is really nice