< 1070264068 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070265599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070265600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070274632 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070316627 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070324980 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++>++>++++++<<<<<-]>+.>>+++.<--.>.<++++++.>++++.------.>++++.>.<<++.<++++.----. < 1070328113 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070328129 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1070328635 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1070342810 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070342810 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1070342924 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070343917 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070344145 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1070344379 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070344384 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1070346457 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070346601 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070346601 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070346627 0 :Taaus!~T@62.242.30.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1070346779 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1070347690 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++[>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++<<<-]>>.+.>.<+++.<+.>+.<++++.>+.++++++. < 1070347865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1070348125 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should post my gp code.. it's much improved over the other day < 1070348231 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can it do? < 1070348287 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to study a bit about genetic programming/algorithms. It tries to find the shortest program to display a given line of text < 1070348355 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at frist I was hoping it could figure out all the loops, etc, but it was too hard a problem, so I gave it the multiply loo pand add structure < 1070348372 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loo pand -> loop and < 1070348386 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like you see above) < 1070348467 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I've been able to determine, using that structure, the 111-byte Hello World!\n is optimal < 1070348520 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok.. java source up at http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/textgen.java < 1070350388 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, that version was messed up, it is reposted and works now < 1070350958 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to bed, +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++++++++++<<-]>-.>.<+++. < 1070350970 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1070351999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070352000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070355437 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070398088 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070398391 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070398650 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070401187 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1070410284 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070410284 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1070413690 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070413690 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1070417410 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070438399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070438400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070440775 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"a shoggoth is trying to break the wall... brb" < 1070489499 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070491056 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070491074 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1070491201 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1070503109 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1070509354 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1070509479 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070510987 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070510987 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1070510998 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1070510998 0 :Taaus!~T@62.242.30.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1070524799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070524800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070532942 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070554603 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1070567801 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070567839 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1070579120 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070581782 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070583106 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1070590487 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070603217 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070603233 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1070605239 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070607799 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1070608203 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070611199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070611200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070614571 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1070620553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmorning. < 1070636586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[off-topic] whee, participated in this lottery-like thing and won a sgi indy. I seem to be collecting stupid old unix workstations. < 1070652702 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070655912 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070668791 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070697599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070697600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070706635 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Changing server" < 1070756126 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070759853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1070760152 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070760191 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070761150 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070761661 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1070761835 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070762069 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070765481 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070765571 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070766055 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070767339 0 :arthur_dent!~l@c-67-169-105-244.client.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070767468 0 :arthur_dent!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070767733 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070767980 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070769037 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070769044 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070769082 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1070769146 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070777435 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070777573 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070783999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070784000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070791799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070840600 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070840903 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070850690 0 :arthur_dent!~l@c-67-169-105-244.client.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070850694 0 :arthur_dent!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1070855178 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070867598 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070870399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070870400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070888511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[more off-topicy] eeh, they've installed irix-6.5 on this ~'93-released hardware I got. it's sloooooow. < 1070914374 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070918582 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Celebrate Afflux! < 1070922127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anybody actually celebrate them? :) < 1070922219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a discordian holiday? < 1070922238 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1070922300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't seen anyone celebrating around here, but haven't really been paying attention either. < 1070922748 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1070929954 0 :arthur_dent!~l@c-67-169-105-244.client.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1070930036 0 :arthur_dent!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1070931535 0 :lament!~lament@24.85.63.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1070952234 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1070956799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1070956800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1070958561 0 :lament!~lament@24.85.63.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1070962067 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"=)" < 1071008234 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071008234 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071008238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071008257 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1071008257 0 :Taaus!~T@62.242.30.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071008257 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071018027 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071031825 0 :andreou!~mech@ppp7.ee.teiath.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1071033149 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"hic sunt dracones" < 1071043199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071043200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071045711 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1071089450 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071098424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1071103017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071103018 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071103018 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071103042 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071103042 0 :Taaus!~T@62.242.30.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071103042 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071105201 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071105201 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071105201 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071105221 0 :Taaus!~T@62.242.30.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071105221 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071122569 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071122976 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071129599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071129600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071137962 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1071154878 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :^C < 1071154878 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071154894 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071154894 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1071157064 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :^C < 1071157064 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071157072 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071157072 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1071181867 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071191022 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071191028 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1071192363 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1071199373 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071209897 0 :StuffSoljah!StuffSolja@CPE0002553e7dc7-CM000a73636caa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071209903 0 :StuffSoljah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1071212237 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071215999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071216000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071224376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071259046 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071261688 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071262469 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, it's mtve < 1071262550 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello :) < 1071262567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlo, people. < 1071262585 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: endianness issues? :) < 1071262644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, smtp exposure. < 1071262674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2134 byte order doesn't sound very normal. < 1071262756 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2135 or even 2145 in fact < 1071262849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, assumed 'helo' as the original greeting. (more smtp.) < 1071262871 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1071262996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2135 is even better byte ordering - saves 20% of memory space. < 1071263028 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4132, maybe? < 1071263061 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, that doesn't work. < 1071263076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2431 i mean. < 1071270181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"broken disk; switching to new." < 1071277770 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071278323 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1071278669 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071302399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071302400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071309033 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"arrrr" < 1071336858 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1071336869 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1071352689 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071388799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071388800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071397145 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071429309 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1071429498 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1071450421 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071450896 0 :Optim!~bfdbfdf@ppp149-77.compulink.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1071457295 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optim: wow, you're in a few channels. < 1071457305 0 :Optim!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1071457672 0 :Optim!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1071469293 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Changing server" < 1071469325 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071469357 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1071469402 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071472481 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"brb" < 1071475051 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071475199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071475200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071485979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071526273 0 :lament!~lament@24.85.63.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071537473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071537473 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071537473 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071537495 0 :lament!~lament@24.85.63.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071537495 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071537495 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071538141 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071538141 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071538142 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071538198 0 :lament!~lament@24.85.63.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1071538198 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071538198 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071561599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071561600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071562583 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo! I can play 2.4 fugues now < 1071562595 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a fugenius. < 1071562610 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now i just need to create Befuge. < 1071575107 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"John Sebastian Bach sat upon a tack, but he soon got up again with a howl..." < 1071610922 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071621543 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... Which fugues can you play now? < 1071621654 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g-minor < 1071621667 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c-minor, sometimes stumble just in a few places < 1071621679 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first half of c-major :) < 1071621703 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a long way to go to playing the c# fugues which is what i really want to do. < 1071621724 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all of this from WTC book I) < 1071621726 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe... The first half of C-major is the easy part! :) < 1071621741 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but < 1071621746 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second half is the hard part :) < 1071621764 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just doesn't make any sense. < 1071621774 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't _hear_ those strettos, how am i supposed to play them! < 1071621783 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know exactly where they are and can't hear them anyway. < 1071621815 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1071621938 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe i should just try harder. < 1071621958 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hearing or playing? :) < 1071622027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both. < 1071622036 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really like it, anyway. < 1071622044 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit strained. < 1071622052 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because of those strettos) < 1071622070 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like a dirty hack :) < 1071622083 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1071622111 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J.S.Bach - The fugue-hacker. < 1071622112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the parts i can't play :)) < 1071622187 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnit... I can't seem to find my WTC book I. < 1071622195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm learning Fmaj now. < 1071622251 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you play the C# ones? < 1071622261 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get the chance, try learning his F minor sinfonia... It's bizarre. < 1071622284 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope... These days, I only play... Hmm... D-major, I think. < 1071622300 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1071622314 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a 4-voice fugue, that one's pretty lame. < 1071622326 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, these days I don't play a lot of Bach... I'm in a Scott Joplin period :) < 1071622337 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... I like the ending of it :) < 1071622346 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. I like the beginning :) < 1071622362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would try to learn Entertainer if i had the score < 1071622370 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i only have a weird four-hands version < 1071622383 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would make it difficult. < 1071622394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entertainers :) < 1071622397 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you could learn both parts ;) < 1071622419 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play one, return back in time to where i'm playing it and play the other one? < 1071622431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok! < 1071622459 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! Time machines solve _everything_! < 1071622480 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've already established that time machines are impossible because they allow one to solve the halting problem < 1071622537 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. Right. < 1071622705 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i don't think i can play entertainer on my keyboard anyway < 1071622708 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not enough keys < 1071622724 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all WTC fits in four octaves :) < 1071622728 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1071622747 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Four octaves... I'd go crazy. < 1071622752 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... More crazy. < 1071622770 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have five < 1071622788 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't use the highest one :) < 1071622826 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have... Seven. And I recently got my piano tuned! Whooo. < 1071622882 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not well-tempered? :) < 1071622922 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, not well-tempered. I prefer modern tuning. < 1071622946 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"prefer"? You actually tried well temperament? < 1071622979 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1071622989 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa. < 1071623062 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a theory that everything in WTC is written specifically to show off the idiosyncrasies of the key it's in. < 1071623069 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i don't believe, but it's still a good theory. < 1071623111 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... I have a mathematician/musician acquaintance who wrote a bachelor thingy on that subject. < 1071623124 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't believe it either :P < 1071623151 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that the C#major fugue, for example, was originally written in Cmajor < 1071623158 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather hard to believe :) < 1071623177 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it makes me want to play it in cmajor... < 1071623205 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... Maybe Bach lucked out when it turned out that it sounded better in C# major ;) < 1071623223 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's only in C# to annoy me. < 1071623270 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it's not in Java :) < 1071623285 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come now... C# major is an _easy_ key... You just have to remember that every single note is shifted up half a note ;) < 1071623292 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1071623301 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ew. Java... I have to use Java next semester... Pity me. < 1071623308 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity you! < 1071623314 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pity you. < 1071623317 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used java this semester. < 1071623323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was only an introductory course. < 1071623336 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pity you! Introductorially. < 1071623338 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what stuff they teach in introductory courses (CS 111)! < 1071623354 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, of course they teach all that stuff that's basic to computer science < 1071623359 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO, data hiding, < 1071623362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :applets, Swing, < 1071623367 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threads... < 1071623368 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh. < 1071623442 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily, our first semester was SML... At least that's a halfway sane language. < 1071623446 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1071623452 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in our uni < 1071623459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they used Scheme for that introductory course. < 1071623462 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until last year. < 1071623467 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's all Java. < 1071623478 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1071623485 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme is clearly a bad introductory language < 1071623490 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even create applets in it! < 1071623494 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not easily anyway. < 1071623539 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, true. < 1071623631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND it doesn't have OO < 1071623645 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried arguing with prof over OO terminology. < 1071623648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it's useless. < 1071623654 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/prof/the prof < 1071623655 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It usually is. < 1071623673 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the disagreement? < 1071623674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! at least it's java, not C++ < 1071623677 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several < 1071623683 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encapsulation vs. data hiding, for one < 1071623690 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1071623815 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish we were using Smalltalk instead of Java. < 1071623851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish everybody were :) < 1071623870 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point :D < 1071623889 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but alas < 1071623893 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk is too dynamic < 1071623908 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily. < 1071623923 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, to do anythnig useful in Java < 1071623929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to cast things from Object < 1071623936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it about as dynamic as smalltalk < 1071623943 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather more inconvenient < 1071623965 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come now... Casting makes you feel ALIVE! < 1071623967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not at all type-safe) < 1071624047 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but casting also makes me regret it :) < 1071624072 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, true. < 1071643255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our 'introductory course' is scheme, and up to last year it was taught using sicp as the course material and was a moderately challenging course, called (translated) something like 'programming T1', then in the next semester there's 'programming T2' which uses C and java and is utterly trivial. < 1071643354 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this year 't1' was changed to 'introduction to programming', half of the material was cut away and the book changed to htdp ( design programs), because they thought it was _too_ challenging. I'd disagree but no-one asks me.) < 1071643408 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ht - "how to" < 1071643411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: MIT did the same < 1071643547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? well, our 't1' didn't even try to cover whole sicp, only about the three first parts. don't think that would've been too much. and htdp is _horrible_. they use non-standard scheme, too. it's filled with "local"s, which is an utterly useless form since there already are internal defines and all the let-forms. < 1071643607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they talk about lambda only in the last few chapters of the book, and it's introduced as being a shorthand notation for (local ((define (foo ..) ..)) foo). < 1071643641 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1071643694 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh anyway there's this 'digital and computer technology, basic course' exam in 14 minutes, guess I should get going to the right building. < 1071643702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be being away now. -> < 1071645151 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Celebrate Yuletide! It's never too early! < 1071647999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071648000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071649758 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071652980 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071652980 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071653014 0 :mtve!~mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071653014 0 :deltab!~deltab@espians.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071658817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was rather trivial. < 1071695519 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071730315 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071734399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071734400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071743860 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1071764828 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :^C < 1071764828 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071764842 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071764842 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1071778376 0 :Serapis!~zdragon@CPE-65-26-0-237.kc.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1071778605 0 :Serapis!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1071785752 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071790495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"oy." < 1071792918 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071799646 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071819556 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071819557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1071819569 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1071819569 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1071820799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071820800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071829414 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071830677 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071874613 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071889985 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071898938 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1071900473 0 :picudo!Picudo@host-200-76-136-235.block.alestra.net.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1071900479 0 :picudo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1071907199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071907200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1071910980 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1071993599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1071993600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072062561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072062562 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072062603 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072062603 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072071943 0 :pjb!~pascal@62.93.174.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1072071947 0 :pjb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1072071952 0 :pjb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Yuletide? < 1072079999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072080000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072089154 0 :robertlaplante!~daemon@ALagny-107-1-1-148.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1072089159 0 :robertlaplante!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lo < 1072089192 0 :robertlaplante!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072101022 0 :pjb!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072162099 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072162112 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1072166399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072166400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072167063 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"you have no chance to survive make your time." < 1072222041 0 :Optim!~bfdbfdf@ath21-ppp196.compulink.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1072229961 0 :Optim!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quit" < 1072252799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072252800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072256992 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072256998 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1072257877 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Why is there an 'L' in Noel? < 1072258608 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"<=K" < 1072266251 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Why is there an 'L' in Noel? | Because "Noël" is prettier than "Noë"? < 1072266451 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... < 1072336711 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072339199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072339200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072344294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1072379357 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072413389 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1072418272 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072425599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072425600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072428368 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bach and sleep and stuff" < 1072462641 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072472875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072477548 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072478091 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Moving. Whee." < 1072482860 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072506000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072508572 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072511999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072512000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072517318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072557351 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072585275 0 :Optim!~bfdbfdf@ath11-ppp96.compulink.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1072591771 0 :Optim!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1072594583 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072598399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072598400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072603356 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072606995 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072606996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072607178 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072607178 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072610209 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072610209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072610264 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072610264 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072612013 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072612013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072612035 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072612035 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072612602 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072612602 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072612717 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072612717 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072613247 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072613247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072613733 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1072614163 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614163 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614163 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614753 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614753 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614775 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614775 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614775 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614777 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614777 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072614795 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614795 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072614795 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628479 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628479 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628483 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628483 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628483 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628519 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628519 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1072628529 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628529 0 :dbc!dbc@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072628529 0 :Taaus!~T@cpe.atm0-0-0-196156.0x3ef21ebe.boanxx5.customer.tele.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1072641435 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072676970 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072681805 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072681815 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1072682388 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072684799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072684800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072695770 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"you have no chance to survive make your time." < 1072731238 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734851 0 :phb!~phearbear@195.162.91.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734856 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1072734866 0 :maihem!~tricky@host217-42-178-64.range217-42.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734870 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1072734870 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@p50833509.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOM? < 1072734879 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of memory < 1072734890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wel < 1072734891 0 :Lars_G!lars@veccsnocpc21.ifxnetworks.net.ve JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*well < 1072734903 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1072734910 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANd now everyone goes quiet, long live Murphy < 1072734915 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you consider the C language, you don't actually consider the possibility of the program dying at any time because of OOM < 1072734915 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcaurse :P < 1072734931 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause noone want to discuss this anyway, it's just a way to pass time in #c :P < 1072734935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you analyze programs written in C you don't do that either < 1072734948 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, actually a program for a turing machine *can't* handle oom. It must simply stop until more tape can be found < 1072734967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: why? < 1072734971 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, when writing in C, I try to ask if memory is available < 1072734986 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's basically an interrupt with a handler that takes a long time < 1072734990 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it won't help you because the program might die at any time < 1072735000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any time you need more stack for example < 1072735001 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is so out of the loop on turing machines :( < 1072735003 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a turing machine does not have a function. "is there more tape or should I fail" < 1072735017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither does c, if you consider the stack < 1072735035 0 :woggle!somebody@h002078ca8395.ne.client2.attbi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072735046 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a good turing machine should have detectors on the tape roll not to burn the driver motors uselessly < 1072735053 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1072735060 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not talking about physical turing machines < 1072735076 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok then there are no detectors. :) < 1072735085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what driver motors? Turing machine is a programming language, for all intents and purposes < 1072735098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, turing machines are programs in a certain language, anyway < 1072735113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1072735114 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is then wethever the turing machine aknowledges the lack of tape.. in theory it should not, so it would engage in a very strange form of overflow < 1072735117 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :phb-wifi < 1072735125 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either overwritting the last position or something else < 1072735126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing stops you from writing an implementation of a turing machine with unlimited memory < 1072735140 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, C guarantees 32 KB of auto storage, I wonder what it guarantees on nested function calls. < 1072735142 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything < 1072735144 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is it possible? < 1072735154 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just transfer the problem of getting more memory into the lower abstraction level < 1072735183 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lower than your interpreter) < 1072735193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1072735207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write an interpreter for turing machines as a turing machine < 1072735210 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a matter of fact I am not %100 up to day with Turnign machines (saw them long ago thou I admire Alan M. Turing) but the thing doesn't even has an index to current position, does it? it just has forward, back, read, write and react on data < 1072735215 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, it won't ever have memory problems < 1072735225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lars_G: correct. < 1072735246 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the machine itself is oblivious to any form of OOM, possible or not < 1072735256 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, it also wont ever exist :/ < 1072735260 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus has no way to react to such an ocurrence, the reaction is undefined < 1072735262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: incorrect < 1072735279 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines aren't the only programming language which doesn't care about memory constraints < 1072735287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: many others don't, either < 1072735297 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and implementations for them exist. < 1072735305 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you have such an implementation < 1072735309 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you run out of memory < 1072735321 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, they suffer the same problem, or they terminate prematurely < 1072735322 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it's a problem of the underlying implementation, not a problem of your turing machine < 1072735327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that/then < 1072735351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(underlying implementation - implementation of language in which your implementation of the TM is written) < 1072735359 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, your implementation of TM is still valid < 1072735363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it breaks :) < 1072735382 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation of a turing machine that does not have enough tape will not complete a program that will complete on a real turing machine. Such an implementation is an inadequate reification < 1072735425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, nothing stops you from writing an implementation that _will_ stop and wait for more memory every time it runs out of it. < 1072735432 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting more memory will be the user's problem. < 1072735437 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1072735464 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what many programs (not TM ones) do anyway < 1072735493 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question becomes a problem of, how much memory can be made from the constituents of our universe - and will it exist for long enough for the program to finish with it ;) < 1072735508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's irrelevant for the implementation < 1072735515 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only relevant for an actual running program < 1072735536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementations are allowed to delegate their problems to something else < 1072735544 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, C delegates memory problems to the OS < 1072735555 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: there is also restricted tm < 1072735563 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the have a limited band < 1072735579 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm afaik memory problems ARE the OS's competence < 1072735591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how C delegating memory problems to the OS is different from TM delegating them to the OS. < 1072735596 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if an implementation cannot run any program that will run on a turing machine. it is not a correct implementation of a turing machine. if the user provably *cannot* obtain arbitrary quantities of tape, then the implementation is inadequate. The implementation here includes the user unfortunately :/ < 1072735619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1072735625 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: akkerman? < 1072735631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provably you say.... < 1072735645 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: fibunatchi number 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 < 1072735664 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for my english < 1072735672 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION enters a crissis and slaps sleon|tuX around with a picture of Bill Gates < 1072735672 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleon|tuX: what? < 1072735689 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not mention Fibonacci on my presence, it has left scars from college < 1072735694 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: hm! < 1072735710 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lars_G: oh no! < 1072735715 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: nah, wrong < 1072735743 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can prove that a user cannot get the tape, then the implementation (software + user) can be proved to not run all programs written for a turing machine < 1072735760 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but my implementation is just software, not software + user. < 1072735782 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can prove the user can't get enough tape, then you have to get another user. But the implementation (software) is still correct. < 1072735861 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This discussion is rapidly heading towards, if the nuke drops, the program doesn't complete when it should. I can see that on the horizon :) < 1072735878 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1072735880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1072735887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's _not_ a problem of the implementation < 1072735901 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does the destruction of the computer consitute completion? or is it bottom? < 1072735902 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your usage of the word "implementation" is simply incorrect < 1072735934 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider implementation to be equivalent to reification. Do you think that is incorrect? < 1072735938 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1072735967 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would do you see as the difference? < 1072735969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that gets source code as input and performs the actions specified by that source code is an implementation (an interpreter) < 1072735982 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existence of a computer to run that program is completely irrelevant. < 1072736034 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So was I really talking about a reification of an implementation? < 1072736050 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reification. < 1072736068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, reification of turing machines is impossible as long as the universe is finite. < 1072736106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which really sucks :( < 1072736108 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO a turing machine is concrete. hence the name "machine" rather than "function" < 1072736172 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called a machine becasue modern CS terminology didn't exist back when Turing invented it. < 1072736197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays they'd be called "Turing programs" < 1072736270 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function is not modern CS terminology. it dates back to before Turing. I think it was Church that examined computability with the function application. < 1072736280 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1072736294 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read my ntes in a while :) < 1072736300 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ntes/notes/ < 1072736312 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines aren't functions < 1072736344 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they have infinite tapes they are. IMHO. < 1072736349 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!? < 1072736358 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something has an infinite tape, it's a function? < 1072736397 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A turing machine has an infinite tape. a turing machine is a function that can be applied to a program < 1072736422 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to "a program"? < 1072736439 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh... < 1072736473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines are'nt applied to any programs. Turing machines _are_ programs < 1072736485 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is the argument to which the turing machine function is applied, lambda p.(turingMachine p) program < 1072736529 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply a turing machine to a program and you get an answer (or non-completion if the program is written thusly) < 1072736570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1072736574 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply an (approximate?) implementation of a turing machine to a program, and if may not complete when the turing machine would have < 1072736589 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm afraid you don't understand the terminology < 1072736605 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if turing machines are "applied" to anything, then only to tapes < 1072736607 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean my lambda application above? < 1072736630 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the tape is the program < 1072736640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the tape is not the program. < 1072736644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tape is data. < 1072736663 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "program" is the brain of the TM itself. < 1072736668 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data which is a program. the turing machine takes that data (program) and computes the result. < 1072736718 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you call the input of your C programs "program"? < 1072736776 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. If I were analysing the correctness of my reification of a formal specification < 1072736783 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway! turing machines do take input and produce output (unless they fail to terminate) < 1072736794 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do functions < 1072736805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do all programs < 1072736823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see this as a sufficiently strong argument to be calling turing machines "functions" < 1072736824 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but an implementation of a turing machine is an implementation of a different function to the true turing machine < 1072736842 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I believe you cannot have a turing machine < 1072736873 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're confusing implementation with reification again. < 1072736887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you _can_ have an implementation of a turing machine was proved by none other than Mr. Turing himself. < 1072736900 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous Universal Turing Machine, in fact. < 1072736953 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe it was proved at all. Hence the difficulty in proving that one can compute the result of the same processes that occur in your brain. < 1072736971 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why the AI question is still out < 1072736993 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1072737003 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalTuringMachine.html < 1072737042 0 :phb-wifi!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ph|Zzzz < 1072737042 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're confusing universal turing machine with the church-turing hypothesis < 1072737049 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter wasn't proven. < 1072737056 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because it was disproven. < 1072737064 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're not talking about that. < 1072737150 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see. < 1072737170 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking that one must have infinite tape to be a turing machine < 1072737175 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that wrong? < 1072737178 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1072737211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, turing machines have infinite tape. < 1072737239 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072737248 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they didn't, there would be some things they couldn't compute < 1072737349 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. where am I going wrong? < 1072737363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in confusing implementation with reification < 1072737382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in thinking that "machine" implies a real machine with a real tape, apparently. < 1072737398 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=machine&action=Search < 1072737498 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So while a reification of a function when applied to data (ie a program) must compute the same result as that function. while an implementation only need do that when applied to a subset of that data < 1072737519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737526 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, a subset of the domain of that function < 1072737528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737572 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation of a turing machine could actually just always print "Hello, World"? < 1072737578 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation is a program, that provably implements the language. < 1072737599 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that is circular < 1072737603 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1072737611 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the key word here is _program_ < 1072737615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't a process < 1072737631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"application" doesn't ever come into the picture < 1072737656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you need another universe to be able to successfully apply your implementation. < 1072737666 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's irrelevant to the implementation. < 1072737667 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose a program is applied also to the time that it is executed, and to external events < 1072737697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not unless all that is in the language specification. < 1072737703 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So an implementation only needs to implement a function as closely as possible under the constrains of nuclear war, etc... including only having 4 Meg RAM < 1072737724 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation is *NOT A PHYSICAL OBJECT* < 1072737728 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a _PROGRAM_ < 1072737735 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs don't have a RAM < 1072737744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs can't be destroyed in a nuclear war < 1072737838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs are just a bunch of symbols conforming to a given algebra < 1072737848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bunches < 1072737851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as turing machines are. < 1072737878 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation is something that when a computer is applied to it, can be applied to a time and unknown event sequence to profuce a function that can be applied to a program in the lanuage that it implements and can produce the same result as that language given some appropriate time and event sequence? < 1072737900 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense. I see your point < 1072737907 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072737945 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the events can include the addition of RAM by the user if necessary < 1072737954 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what a "computer" is < 1072738017 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an implementation that is a program and not a thing, but that doesn't require a computer in order to compute the result of running that program on a program? < 1072738027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs don't require computers. < 1072738066 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs specify the semantics of a certain virtual machine. < 1072738067 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think pen and paper with a strict set of rules to follow a program is a computer. I don't mean to suggest it should be made of doped silicon < 1072738088 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babbage designed one of steel < 1072738105 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... I think the term computer is generic enough < 1072738106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need a computer to calculate 2 + 2? < 1072738113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't need a computer, you need _arithmetics_ < 1072738136 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given an arithmetics, 2 + 2 _is_ 4, you don't need to calculate it < 1072738136 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I compute 2 + 2 so I am a computer (if not efficient at arithmentic computations) < 1072738142 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! We need axioms! :D < 1072738173 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetics includes axioms :) < 1072738181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rules for their application < 1072738186 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as programming languages do... < 1072738196 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1072738216 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: SEE!! Taaus agrees with me! < 1072738244 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's right. That is a rather unique event. < 1072738307 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, it's being recorded even as we speak < 1072738316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will present the logs on my trial < 1072738317 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1072738420 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do arithmetics produce physical output over time? If not then your implementation is indeed just a function, and is thus a reification of some formal specification. sorry, I'm dragging this on needlessly aren't I :) < 1072738441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you're just confusing yourself further :) < 1072738452 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that happens a lot :) < 1072738468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i didn't understand what you said :( < 1072738472 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never had arithmetics interact physically with anything... Apart from the time I accidentally divided by zero, and my paper burst into flames... < 1072738497 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1072738505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: you were lucky you weren't dividing zero by zero - anything could have happened! < 1072738522 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too true. < 1072738575 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think computers should represent numbers in log_2 form. so there is noo zero. Also far fewer integers, but you can't have everything. < 1072738628 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, log_2 (log_2 (1)) < 1072738941 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to reading about the joys of fold/unfold < 1072739763 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072739763 0 :clog_!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1072740012 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1072740012 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1072740699 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Client exiting" < 1072742094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus they left. < 1072742126 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily. < 1072756847 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Changing server" < 1072757300 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072771199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072771200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072777128 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD9E62C37.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072778714 0 :ph|Zzzz!~phearbear@195.162.91.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1072778736 0 :ph|Zzzz!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :phearbear < 1072778796 0 :phearbear!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072780156 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072781303 0 :sleon_!~sleon@pD9591216.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072781892 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1072789229 0 :sleon_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1072792396 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD9591216.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072799579 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sleon|away < 1072799586 0 :sleon|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sleon|tuX < 1072812088 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072812662 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072817480 0 :meme!~meme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072817819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we have two logging bots. < 1072839212 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lameAFK < 1072846096 0 :lameAFK!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1072857599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072857600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072867520 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD9591216.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072867706 0 :sleon_!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072868796 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1072869592 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lameSLEEP < 1072876414 0 :sleon_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072876419 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072886116 0 :lameSLEEP!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1072887570 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072895784 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072908322 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072912966 0 :meme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1072913178 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072857600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072867520 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD9591216.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072867706 0 :sleon_!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072868796 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1072876414 0 :sleon_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072876419 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072887570 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072895784 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@pD901839D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072908322 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072913178 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com JOIN :#esoteric