< 1072676970 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1072681805 0 :calamari_!killerkal@ip68-0-154-225.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072681815 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1072682388 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072684799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1072684800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072695770 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"you have no chance to survive make your time." < 1072731238 0 :lament!~lament@h24-85-63-178.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734851 0 :phb!~phearbear@195.162.91.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734856 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1072734866 0 :maihem!~tricky@host217-42-178-64.range217-42.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734870 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1072734870 0 :sleon|tuX!~sleon@p50833509.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOM? < 1072734879 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of memory < 1072734890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wel < 1072734891 0 :Lars_G!lars@veccsnocpc21.ifxnetworks.net.ve JOIN :#esoteric < 1072734892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*well < 1072734903 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1072734910 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANd now everyone goes quiet, long live Murphy < 1072734915 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you consider the C language, you don't actually consider the possibility of the program dying at any time because of OOM < 1072734915 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcaurse :P < 1072734931 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause noone want to discuss this anyway, it's just a way to pass time in #c :P < 1072734935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you analyze programs written in C you don't do that either < 1072734948 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, actually a program for a turing machine *can't* handle oom. It must simply stop until more tape can be found < 1072734967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: why? < 1072734971 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, when writing in C, I try to ask if memory is available < 1072734986 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's basically an interrupt with a handler that takes a long time < 1072734990 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it won't help you because the program might die at any time < 1072735000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any time you need more stack for example < 1072735001 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is so out of the loop on turing machines :( < 1072735003 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a turing machine does not have a function. "is there more tape or should I fail" < 1072735017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither does c, if you consider the stack < 1072735035 0 :woggle!somebody@h002078ca8395.ne.client2.attbi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1072735046 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a good turing machine should have detectors on the tape roll not to burn the driver motors uselessly < 1072735053 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1072735060 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not talking about physical turing machines < 1072735076 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok then there are no detectors. :) < 1072735085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what driver motors? Turing machine is a programming language, for all intents and purposes < 1072735098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, turing machines are programs in a certain language, anyway < 1072735113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1072735114 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is then wethever the turing machine aknowledges the lack of tape.. in theory it should not, so it would engage in a very strange form of overflow < 1072735117 0 :phb!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :phb-wifi < 1072735125 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either overwritting the last position or something else < 1072735126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing stops you from writing an implementation of a turing machine with unlimited memory < 1072735140 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, C guarantees 32 KB of auto storage, I wonder what it guarantees on nested function calls. < 1072735142 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything < 1072735144 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is it possible? < 1072735154 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just transfer the problem of getting more memory into the lower abstraction level < 1072735183 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lower than your interpreter) < 1072735193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1072735207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write an interpreter for turing machines as a turing machine < 1072735210 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a matter of fact I am not %100 up to day with Turnign machines (saw them long ago thou I admire Alan M. Turing) but the thing doesn't even has an index to current position, does it? it just has forward, back, read, write and react on data < 1072735215 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, it won't ever have memory problems < 1072735225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lars_G: correct. < 1072735246 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the machine itself is oblivious to any form of OOM, possible or not < 1072735256 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, it also wont ever exist :/ < 1072735260 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus has no way to react to such an ocurrence, the reaction is undefined < 1072735262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: incorrect < 1072735279 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines aren't the only programming language which doesn't care about memory constraints < 1072735287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: many others don't, either < 1072735297 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and implementations for them exist. < 1072735305 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you have such an implementation < 1072735309 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you run out of memory < 1072735321 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, they suffer the same problem, or they terminate prematurely < 1072735322 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it's a problem of the underlying implementation, not a problem of your turing machine < 1072735327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that/then < 1072735351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(underlying implementation - implementation of language in which your implementation of the TM is written) < 1072735359 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, your implementation of TM is still valid < 1072735363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it breaks :) < 1072735382 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation of a turing machine that does not have enough tape will not complete a program that will complete on a real turing machine. Such an implementation is an inadequate reification < 1072735425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, nothing stops you from writing an implementation that _will_ stop and wait for more memory every time it runs out of it. < 1072735432 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting more memory will be the user's problem. < 1072735437 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1072735464 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what many programs (not TM ones) do anyway < 1072735493 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question becomes a problem of, how much memory can be made from the constituents of our universe - and will it exist for long enough for the program to finish with it ;) < 1072735508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's irrelevant for the implementation < 1072735515 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only relevant for an actual running program < 1072735536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementations are allowed to delegate their problems to something else < 1072735544 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, C delegates memory problems to the OS < 1072735555 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: there is also restricted tm < 1072735563 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the have a limited band < 1072735579 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm afaik memory problems ARE the OS's competence < 1072735591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how C delegating memory problems to the OS is different from TM delegating them to the OS. < 1072735596 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if an implementation cannot run any program that will run on a turing machine. it is not a correct implementation of a turing machine. if the user provably *cannot* obtain arbitrary quantities of tape, then the implementation is inadequate. The implementation here includes the user unfortunately :/ < 1072735619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1072735625 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: akkerman? < 1072735631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provably you say.... < 1072735645 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: fibunatchi number 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 < 1072735664 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for my english < 1072735672 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION enters a crissis and slaps sleon|tuX around with a picture of Bill Gates < 1072735672 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleon|tuX: what? < 1072735689 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not mention Fibonacci on my presence, it has left scars from college < 1072735694 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: hm! < 1072735710 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lars_G: oh no! < 1072735715 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: nah, wrong < 1072735743 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can prove that a user cannot get the tape, then the implementation (software + user) can be proved to not run all programs written for a turing machine < 1072735760 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but my implementation is just software, not software + user. < 1072735782 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can prove the user can't get enough tape, then you have to get another user. But the implementation (software) is still correct. < 1072735861 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This discussion is rapidly heading towards, if the nuke drops, the program doesn't complete when it should. I can see that on the horizon :) < 1072735878 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1072735880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1072735887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's _not_ a problem of the implementation < 1072735901 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does the destruction of the computer consitute completion? or is it bottom? < 1072735902 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your usage of the word "implementation" is simply incorrect < 1072735934 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider implementation to be equivalent to reification. Do you think that is incorrect? < 1072735938 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1072735967 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would do you see as the difference? < 1072735969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that gets source code as input and performs the actions specified by that source code is an implementation (an interpreter) < 1072735982 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existence of a computer to run that program is completely irrelevant. < 1072736034 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So was I really talking about a reification of an implementation? < 1072736050 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reification. < 1072736068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, reification of turing machines is impossible as long as the universe is finite. < 1072736106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which really sucks :( < 1072736108 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO a turing machine is concrete. hence the name "machine" rather than "function" < 1072736172 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called a machine becasue modern CS terminology didn't exist back when Turing invented it. < 1072736197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays they'd be called "Turing programs" < 1072736270 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function is not modern CS terminology. it dates back to before Turing. I think it was Church that examined computability with the function application. < 1072736280 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1072736294 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read my ntes in a while :) < 1072736300 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ntes/notes/ < 1072736312 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines aren't functions < 1072736344 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they have infinite tapes they are. IMHO. < 1072736349 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!? < 1072736358 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something has an infinite tape, it's a function? < 1072736397 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A turing machine has an infinite tape. a turing machine is a function that can be applied to a program < 1072736422 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to "a program"? < 1072736439 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh... < 1072736473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: turing machines are'nt applied to any programs. Turing machines _are_ programs < 1072736485 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is the argument to which the turing machine function is applied, lambda p.(turingMachine p) program < 1072736529 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply a turing machine to a program and you get an answer (or non-completion if the program is written thusly) < 1072736570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1072736574 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply an (approximate?) implementation of a turing machine to a program, and if may not complete when the turing machine would have < 1072736589 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm afraid you don't understand the terminology < 1072736605 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if turing machines are "applied" to anything, then only to tapes < 1072736607 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean my lambda application above? < 1072736630 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the tape is the program < 1072736640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the tape is not the program. < 1072736644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tape is data. < 1072736663 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "program" is the brain of the TM itself. < 1072736668 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data which is a program. the turing machine takes that data (program) and computes the result. < 1072736718 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you call the input of your C programs "program"? < 1072736776 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. If I were analysing the correctness of my reification of a formal specification < 1072736783 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway! turing machines do take input and produce output (unless they fail to terminate) < 1072736794 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do functions < 1072736805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do all programs < 1072736823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see this as a sufficiently strong argument to be calling turing machines "functions" < 1072736824 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but an implementation of a turing machine is an implementation of a different function to the true turing machine < 1072736842 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I believe you cannot have a turing machine < 1072736873 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're confusing implementation with reification again. < 1072736887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you _can_ have an implementation of a turing machine was proved by none other than Mr. Turing himself. < 1072736900 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous Universal Turing Machine, in fact. < 1072736953 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe it was proved at all. Hence the difficulty in proving that one can compute the result of the same processes that occur in your brain. < 1072736971 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why the AI question is still out < 1072736993 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1072737003 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalTuringMachine.html < 1072737042 0 :phb-wifi!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ph|Zzzz < 1072737042 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're confusing universal turing machine with the church-turing hypothesis < 1072737049 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter wasn't proven. < 1072737056 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because it was disproven. < 1072737064 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're not talking about that. < 1072737150 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see. < 1072737170 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking that one must have infinite tape to be a turing machine < 1072737175 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that wrong? < 1072737178 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1072737211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, turing machines have infinite tape. < 1072737239 0 :sleon|tuX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1072737248 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they didn't, there would be some things they couldn't compute < 1072737349 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. where am I going wrong? < 1072737363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in confusing implementation with reification < 1072737382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in thinking that "machine" implies a real machine with a real tape, apparently. < 1072737398 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=machine&action=Search < 1072737498 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So while a reification of a function when applied to data (ie a program) must compute the same result as that function. while an implementation only need do that when applied to a subset of that data < 1072737519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737526 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, a subset of the domain of that function < 1072737528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737572 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation of a turing machine could actually just always print "Hello, World"? < 1072737578 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation is a program, that provably implements the language. < 1072737599 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that is circular < 1072737603 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1072737611 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the key word here is _program_ < 1072737615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't a process < 1072737631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"application" doesn't ever come into the picture < 1072737656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you need another universe to be able to successfully apply your implementation. < 1072737666 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's irrelevant to the implementation. < 1072737667 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose a program is applied also to the time that it is executed, and to external events < 1072737697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not unless all that is in the language specification. < 1072737703 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So an implementation only needs to implement a function as closely as possible under the constrains of nuclear war, etc... including only having 4 Meg RAM < 1072737724 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation is *NOT A PHYSICAL OBJECT* < 1072737728 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a _PROGRAM_ < 1072737735 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs don't have a RAM < 1072737744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs can't be destroyed in a nuclear war < 1072737838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs are just a bunch of symbols conforming to a given algebra < 1072737848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bunches < 1072737851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as turing machines are. < 1072737878 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation is something that when a computer is applied to it, can be applied to a time and unknown event sequence to profuce a function that can be applied to a program in the lanuage that it implements and can produce the same result as that language given some appropriate time and event sequence? < 1072737900 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense. I see your point < 1072737907 0 :Lars_G!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1072737945 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the events can include the addition of RAM by the user if necessary < 1072737954 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1072737969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what a "computer" is < 1072738017 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an implementation that is a program and not a thing, but that doesn't require a computer in order to compute the result of running that program on a program? < 1072738027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs don't require computers. < 1072738066 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs specify the semantics of a certain virtual machine. < 1072738067 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think pen and paper with a strict set of rules to follow a program is a computer. I don't mean to suggest it should be made of doped silicon < 1072738088 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babbage designed one of steel < 1072738105 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... I think the term computer is generic enough < 1072738106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need a computer to calculate 2 + 2? < 1072738113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't need a computer, you need _arithmetics_ < 1072738136 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given an arithmetics, 2 + 2 _is_ 4, you don't need to calculate it < 1072738136 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I compute 2 + 2 so I am a computer (if not efficient at arithmentic computations) < 1072738142 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! We need axioms! :D < 1072738173 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetics includes axioms :) < 1072738181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rules for their application < 1072738186 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as programming languages do... < 1072738196 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1072738216 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maihem: SEE!! Taaus agrees with me! < 1072738244 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's right. That is a rather unique event. < 1072738307 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, it's being recorded even as we speak < 1072738316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will present the logs on my trial < 1072738317 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1072738420 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do arithmetics produce physical output over time? If not then your implementation is indeed just a function, and is thus a reification of some formal specification. sorry, I'm dragging this on needlessly aren't I :) < 1072738441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you're just confusing yourself further :) < 1072738452 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that happens a lot :) < 1072738468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i didn't understand what you said :( < 1072738472 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never had arithmetics interact physically with anything... Apart from the time I accidentally divided by zero, and my paper burst into flames... < 1072738497 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1072738505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: you were lucky you weren't dividing zero by zero - anything could have happened! < 1072738522 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too true. < 1072738575 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think computers should represent numbers in log_2 form. so there is noo zero. Also far fewer integers, but you can't have everything. < 1072738628 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, log_2 (log_2 (1)) < 1072738941 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to reading about the joys of fold/unfold < 1072739763 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1072739763 0 :clog_!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1072740012 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1072740012 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1072740699 0 :maihem!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Client exiting" < 1072742094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus they left. < 1072742126 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily.