2003-03-01:

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15:41:03 <terr> any ppl here.
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15:41:36 <hegemon> Oh OK
15:41:46 <hegemon> My appologies. :)
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2003-03-02:

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06:01:37 <calamari> hi
06:04:20 <calamari> ÷
06:05:07 <calamari> _
06:08:34 <calamari> 0xDEAD + 0x740263 = ?
06:10:15 <calamari> 0xDEAD - 0xD35F = ?
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2003-03-03:

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2003-03-04:

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03:22:20 <calamari> hi
03:22:31 <lament> hi.
03:24:14 <calamari> C001 5017E014E 15 A13CBDE
03:24:55 <calamari> 175 A17A23C1N6
03:24:58 <calamari> hehe
03:25:07 <lament> yes.
03:25:09 <calamari> doesn't really work without a calculator font
03:26:18 <calamari> someday i'll use it when i build a portable bf computer :)
03:27:09 <calamari> would be cool to make one without using ic's
03:27:21 <calamari> but that would be a lot harder
03:27:53 <calamari> did you try eso out? :)
03:27:58 <lament> no.
03:30:26 <calamari> i think it needs major work in the esofunk dept
03:31:10 <calamari> came up with a compiler design that looks a lot like c.. but thats the problem.. useful languages tend to look like basic or c.. they got it right early on I guess
03:31:33 <calamari> got a fortran book and was surprised to see the similarity to basic 
03:31:39 <lament> i suggest you base it on forth
03:32:04 <calamari> is forth a complicated language? never used it before
03:32:17 <lament> look at it, then
03:32:29 <lament> i don't see how it's possible to write an esoteric os without knowing about forth
03:33:56 <calamari> wow its old
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03:47:04 <calamari> it doesnt seem like forth programs would be very portable
03:48:12 <lament> depends on the forth :)
03:48:27 <SamB> calamari: not heard of ANS forth?
03:48:42 <SamB> fishhead: there is actually a standard ;-)
03:49:34 <lament> well
03:49:46 <lament> ANS forth in itself is not a very good language to base an esoteric OS on
03:50:25 <calamari> i'm just seeing things like pointers.. no datatypes.. etc :)
03:51:09 <SamB> well, you could use something like MAF as a base to build forths for different hardware on top of ;-)
03:52:15 <SamB> calamari: it has datatypes. single cell and double cell at least
03:52:59 <calamari> the 6502 can address 64k of ram ... if i used an 8088 style pointer it would not work o
03:53:50 <calamari> so i figure it would need to work with the 6502.. but then the speed of the 8088 code would suffer
03:54:13 <calamari> getting too low level seems to trap you like that
03:54:48 <calamari> a basic program could be optimized for either processor since it is so far away
03:55:04 <calamari> im not suggesting basic tho :)
03:55:29 <calamari> so the challenge is to be low level for speed but portable too
03:55:55 <calamari> anyways
03:56:46 <lament> if i were to write an os
03:56:59 <lament> i would use either one of: lisp, forth, smalltalk
03:57:01 <lament> as the base
03:57:36 <lament> in other words, the os should incorporate a language
04:00:26 <calamari> i should just give up and finish my bf basic compiler :)
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2003-03-09:

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2003-03-10:

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03:15:07 <calamari> hello
03:15:57 <calamari> where can i find those (ensi?) bf rules?
03:16:38 <Taaus> http://esoteric.sange.fi , possibly :)
03:16:49 <calamari> I might need to redo routines for my bfbasic compiler since they assume 8-bit numbers and l-r tape wrapping
03:17:11 <Taaus> Ah. 
03:17:32 <calamari> oh.. wait i remember.. on the bf golf page
03:18:27 <Taaus> You know, they _are_ at the link I pasted :)
03:18:43 <calamari> I see one yep.. but it says 0-255
03:18:47 <calamari> is that right?
03:19:13 <calamari> "3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255" in golf-rules.txt
03:19:19 <Taaus> Well, for BF-golf, it is.
03:20:02 <calamari> does it wrap around from 0 to 255 and 255 to 0?
03:20:34 <Taaus> It says 'No over or underflow allowed'... So I guess the answer is 'no'.
03:21:08 <calamari> oops didnt see that, lol
03:22:12 <calamari> hrm.. that actually makes no sense to have arbitrary limits with no wrapping hehe
03:23:58 <calamari> stiil, if I write it to use that, it should still work on a wrapping compiler/interpreter
03:24:04 <calamari> even a 16-bit one
03:24:09 <Taaus> Yep.
03:26:01 <calamari> how would you compute 3 - 4 = -1 ?  +++---- wouldn't cut it
03:26:56 <calamari> i'll hafta think about this.. my 2's complement rules fail me under this system :)
03:27:19 <Taaus> Well... I suppose you'd have to define a new 0 that was larger than the original 0 :)
03:27:51 <Taaus> Or you could allocate two memory blocks to each integer... And make one of them a zero 'bit' ;)
03:28:27 <calamari> thats very evil, but it would be the easiest, i think :)
03:29:15 <calamari> hmm.. but signed char.. that could be fun too hehe
03:29:57 <Taaus> Ouch... Having to initialise all variables to 127 (or is it 128? I forget)
03:30:07 <calamari> yeah.. :(
03:31:24 <Taaus> Oooh... You could map the odd and even numbers to positive and negative numbers respectively. 0 => 0, 1 => 1, 2 => -1, etc... How... Wonderful ;)
03:32:18 <calamari> lol
03:34:40 <Taaus> Hmm... So a number N is really (N+1)/2, if it's odd, or -N/2 if it's even... Neat :)
03:34:52 <calamari> hmm.. this might be the easiest.  For each - I can put in a piece of code that if the current value is zero I change it to 255 
03:35:19 <Taaus> Ouch... That'll produce a major code bloat, I fear...
03:35:23 <calamari> yeah
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03:36:25 <calamari> screw it
03:36:36 <calamari> if ppl want to run my code they need to make a wrapping compiler :P
03:36:38 <Taaus> And I'm not even sure it'd work... It might clobber some memory locations while incrementing to 255.
03:36:42 <Taaus> Hehe.
03:36:45 <Taaus> That's the spirit!
03:37:19 <calamari> I could accept no wrapping if there was +/- infinity as a range
03:37:57 <calamari> that would be cool too
03:38:11 <calamari> couldn't use [-] blindly .. might need [+]
03:45:20 <calamari> bbl.. thanks for the ideas.. might use em :)
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03:46:11 <Taaus> Hehe... You're welcome. :)
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13:24:58 <dbc> Hey, get this:
13:25:00 <dbc> #!/usr/bin/sh
13:25:00 <dbc> #       Copyright (c) 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989 AT&T
13:25:00 <dbc> #         All Rights Reserved
13:25:00 <dbc> #       THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T
13:25:00 <dbc> #       The copyright notice above does not evidence any
13:25:01 <dbc> #       actual or intended publication of such source code.
13:25:03 <dbc> #ident  "@(#)true.sh    1.6     93/01/11 SMI"   /* SVr4.0 1.4   */
13:32:25 <dbc> (This is an entire program. Except there was another blank line between "Reserved" and "THIS", that didn't come through on IRC.)
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2003-03-11:

00:08:23 <dbc> I suppose nobody's awake to comment, but I found it amusing that they'd pull out such aggressive verbiage to defend their copyright to code consisting entirely of comments.
00:13:16 <SamB> what where who?
00:14:36 <dbc> Check today's log for this channel at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.03.10
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00:35:52 <Taaus> Actually, I'm more interested in finding out how you got your hands on UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T ;)
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00:44:53 <dbc> :)
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05:02:03 <SamB> Taaus: they actually do distribute it, I think its some kind of legal status or something, perhaps they want the government to leave them alone?
05:03:07 <SamB> s/,[^,]*$//
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2003-03-12:

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05:20:05 <calamari_> hi
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05:20:26 <calamari> whoa its really dead in here hehe
05:20:49 <calamari> unless, wait..  Tauus you there? :)
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20:50:05 -!- calamari has set topic: not vaporware: BFBasic compiler at http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/bfbasic.zip.
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2003-03-13:

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02:07:39 <Taaus> Heya calamari.
02:07:44 <calamari> hi taaus
02:07:58 <calamari> do you know who is in charge of the website log?
02:08:13 <Taaus> Hmm... Nope. Why do you ask?
02:08:24 <calamari> I need to remove my e-mail address from todays log
02:08:55 <calamari> so i dont get spammed .. no spam as of yet and I want to keep it that way.. wasnt thinking when i came in here earlier
02:09:35 <Taaus> Oh, you're Jeffry Johnston?
02:09:53 <calamari> yeah thats me
02:09:57 <calamari> why
02:10:10 <Taaus> No reason... I just recognise your name :)
02:10:20 <calamari> hehe hope thats a good thing
02:10:30 <calamari> anyhow
02:10:46 <calamari> trying to figure out a good way of making and / or /xor in bf
02:11:11 <Taaus> Bitwise?
02:11:24 <calamari> yeah
02:11:36 <calamari> but without converting to binary would be nice :)
02:12:34 <calamari> if I can get two of them, the third is possible, because or=and+xor
02:13:12 <calamari> also and+or seems to be x+y .. dunno if that is helpful tho
02:13:54 <Taaus> Hmm...
02:14:36 <calamari> maybe there needs to be a bf golf contest to find the shortest code hehe
02:15:16 <Taaus> Isn't that what all BF golf contests are about? :P
02:15:26 <calamari> ;)
02:34:53 <calamari> cool
02:35:08 <Taaus> Hmm?
02:35:23 <calamari> just put and as a 256x256 greyscale picture.. looks neat.. complex pattern
02:35:38 <calamari> (all the possible combinations in 8 bits)
02:35:55 <calamari> and + or is a triagle thing
02:36:54 <Taaus> Hmm... Yes, that would make sense. They should all be diagonally symmetric, anyway :)
02:40:10 <calamari> (and * or) is very messed up
02:40:21 <Taaus> Heh.
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02:53:38 <calamari> hi lament
02:54:15 <lament> hi!
02:54:57 <calamari> trying to code and / or / xor in bf without converting to binary.. any ideas?
02:56:04 <deltab> what reresents false, true?
02:57:38 <calamari> for bit operations
02:57:54 <calamari> 1 = true, 0 = false 
02:58:47 <calamari> there has to be an easier way than converting to binary and doing 8 comparisons
03:00:02 <deltab> oh, you mean packing 8 bits in each cell?
03:01:18 <calamari> a bf cell automatically has 8 bits
03:01:44 <calamari> what i'm saying is like on a calculator.. 
03:02:34 <calamari> you punch in 123 xor 45 and you get 86
03:04:15 <lament> i think you will have to convert to binary.
03:07:01 <calamari> hehe
03:30:22 <calamari> bbl
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2003-03-14:

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04:14:23 <calamari> hi
04:14:43 <lament> hui
04:14:58 <calamari> hi lament
04:15:04 <calamari> do you run the clog bot ?
04:15:15 <lament> n.o
04:15:16 <lament> no.
04:15:19 <calamari> know who does?
04:15:24 <lament> yes.
04:15:28 <calamari> who? :)
04:16:32 <lament> nef
04:17:02 <calamari> do you happen to have nef's e-mail address?
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04:18:54 <water> hi
04:18:58 <calamari> hi water
04:19:01 <water> someone wanted to know about clog?
04:19:07 <calamari> me :)
04:19:23 <water> what's your request?
04:19:31 <calamari> can you delete my e-mail address from yesterdays log ?
04:19:34 <Taaus> Money! Make it money!
04:19:37 <lament> whoa
04:19:37 <Taaus> Damn.
04:19:40 <lament> yeah
04:19:40 <calamari> taaus: :P
04:19:50 <lament> water: ...and some money for me, please :)
04:19:51 <water> hm
04:20:03 <water> no money, sorry
04:20:04 <Taaus> calamari: You're so selfish... 'My email address this, my email address that...' ;)
04:20:09 <calamari> hahaha
04:20:28 <calamari> delete taaus from todays log too.. that bettter? :)
04:20:36 <Taaus> :'(
04:20:48 <water> i don't see it
04:21:05 <calamari> it should be near the top.. jeffry@ 
04:21:09 * lament cruelly watches water replace every line of yesterday's log with calamari's address
04:21:27 <water> oh that
04:21:38 <Taaus> lament: 'cruelly'? Someone's been hanging around moshez lately! ;)
04:21:42 <water> dunno, man. i don't get spam and my address is everywhere in the logs
04:21:51 <water> is someone out to get you?
04:21:57 <calamari> water: nope
04:22:06 <water> i wouldn't worry about it
04:22:07 <Taaus> I am! Oh, damn... I gave it away now, didn't I?
04:22:09 <water> but
04:22:18 <lament> Taaus: yes!
04:22:23 <lament> Taaus: i'm a mini-moshez
04:22:25 <calamari> could you delete it anyways? I'd really appreciate it :)
04:22:32 <lament> Taaus: first, i'm jewish
04:22:42 <lament> Taaus: second, i'm going to learn math.
04:22:46 <calamari> I'll even give you bfbasic 0.70 in a few minutes :)
04:22:49 <water> hcf: can you remove calamari's email address from /logs/esoteric/03.03.12 ?
04:23:03 <lament> Taaus: third, i'm intrinsically evil.
04:23:03 <water> ok it should be removed in a day or two.
04:23:13 <calamari> thanks
04:23:20 <Taaus> Oooh... Intrinsic evilness.
04:23:25 <water> honestly you're seriously overestimating the visibility of those logs
04:23:30 <water> anyway, bye
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04:23:39 <lament> wow
04:23:43 <lament> this is quite impressive.
04:23:48 <calamari> you can have leave messages? didn
04:23:50 <lament> hcf: And please give me some money, too!
04:23:52 <calamari> t know that hehe
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05:32:00 <hcf> calamari: i removed your email address
05:32:15 <calamari> thanks, I appreciate it
05:32:36 <hcf> calamari: np, just don't do it happen again
05:32:42 <hcf> s/happen//
05:32:52 <calamari> i won't.. thanks :)
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18:42:58 -!- calamari has set topic: BFBasic compiler 0.70: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/bfbasic.zip.
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23:00:48 <navigator> hey
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2003-03-15:

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05:30:44 <calamari> hi
05:31:17 <calamari> so who is going to do the C compiler port? :)
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05:46:10 <calamari> hi lament
05:46:47 <lament> hi.
05:53:00 <calamari> hehe this place is funny.. I don't know who anyone is, because all the nicks are different than the names I'm familiar with from the mailing list
05:53:10 <lament> heh.
05:53:13 <lament> well, you probably know me.
05:53:20 <lament> And clog.
05:53:26 <lament> Aardappel is not on the list, afaik
05:53:34 <calamari> are you mtv europe, panu, chris?
05:53:41 <lament> but he's the author of False and a thousand other languages
05:53:45 <lament> as well as Cube
05:53:46 <lament> no
05:53:57 <calamari> David?
05:54:45 <lament> i'm nikita
05:55:03 <calamari> who is clog?
05:58:42 <calamari> clog=daniel ?
05:58:47 <lament> clog is a bot :)
05:58:51 <calamari> lol;
05:58:58 <calamari> i know daniel has been on here before
05:59:30 <calamari> i know clog is a bot, you silly :)
05:59:37 <calamari> anyhow
06:00:00 <calamari> you could do the BF compiler C version ;)
06:00:36 <calamari> then we could rewrite it in c, compile itself, and have a c compiler written in bf :)
06:01:34 <calamari> s/in/for
06:05:52 <lament> heh.
06:05:54 <lament> no, thanks.
06:07:19 <lament> i've done too much stuff with brainfuck already.
07:35:45 <calamari> bbl 
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08:12:08 <SamB> what mailing list?
08:12:39 <lament> SamB: the esolang mailing list.
08:12:46 <lament> SamB: the mailing list that this is a channel of :)
08:13:09 * SamB didn't know there was such a list
08:21:15 <lament> google for esolang.
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08:31:50 <dbc> Someone was asking who's daniel. I am.
08:32:00 <lament> whoa.
08:32:07 <lament> someone reads the logs.
08:33:14 <dbc> someone was also asking before about why the brainfuck golf rules prohibit both using numbers above 255, and assuming wraparound byte values, when one or the other will work in just about any implementation...
08:33:48 <dbc> but as you (lament) know, it's because the brainfuck golf rules are designed to require maximal portability.
08:33:58 <SamB> what if it clipped instead?
08:34:18 <dbc> Sam good question, but I don't know that any implementations do.
08:34:36 <SamB> its a hypothetical question anyway
08:35:23 <dbc> if it clipped, then it would make sense to avoid both behaviors. It makes sense anyway, in my view...
08:40:04 <dbc> on the question of the most concise way to do bitwise operations, I agree that converting to binary will probably be necessary, but that doesn't seem like a problem...
08:43:24 <dbc> and naturally the number of bits won't need to be hardcoded or the code repeated, just walk along the list of bits...
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2003-03-16:

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02:36:09 <calamari> hello
03:12:44 <Taaus> Hello, Mr. Squid :)
04:00:53 <calamari> okay.. challenge 2 :)
04:01:57 <calamari> need to be able to tell whether a number is even or odd in bf
04:02:11 <calamari> hrm *2 /2.. ew so slow lol
04:02:22 <Taaus> Why the *2 bit?
04:02:29 <calamari> err got that backwards
04:02:34 <calamari> should have said /2 *2
04:02:48 <calamari> then you compare to the original number
04:02:57 <calamari> same? even, different? odd
04:03:06 <calamari> but maybe there is a faster way
04:03:24 <Taaus> Probably.
04:04:42 <calamari> aha
04:04:47 <calamari> might have something
04:04:52 <calamari> could have a loop with two decrements
04:05:11 <calamari> if it hits zero with one of the decs it is even.. the other? odd
04:05:15 <Taaus> I guess you could do something like this: "distribute" the contents of the memory cell you wish to test into two other memory cells. You then end up with either N/2 and N/2+1 or two N/2... Subtract these from each other, and you get 0 or 1.
04:05:26 <Taaus> You could do that too. :)
04:05:44 <calamari> yeah i think it should be pretty fast
04:07:08 <calamari> hehe this esoteric stuff gets scary when you start thinking in bf code
04:07:39 <calamari> was showing my java instructor how to copy (add) in bf.. I think I might have freaked him out
04:08:11 <calamari> anyways.. afk
04:08:13 <Taaus> He was awed by the elegance when compared to Java? ;)
04:08:22 <calamari> LOL
04:22:02 <calamari> hrm.. was messing with the subtract twice idea.. yours seems simpler and actually faster than testing for 0 twice
04:22:42 <Taaus> Interesting.
04:23:36 <calamari> for example if it hits zero on the first one then you have to put in an if to not do the second one
04:23:46 <Taaus> Of course.
04:24:25 <calamari> hrm.. yours has the same problem i guess
04:24:43 <Taaus> Yep... But I wouldn't call it a problem :)
04:26:21 <Taaus> We'll have to talk about it some other time, though... It's almost 6 AM here. I'm heading off to bed :)
04:27:49 <calamari> cya.. thanks :)
04:28:04 <Taaus> Anytime :D
04:38:34 <calamari> oh wait.. thats easier to fix than I first thought !
04:42:27 <calamari> and i dont even have to test for 0.. sweet!
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2003-03-17:

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2003-03-18:

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2003-03-19:

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03:54:03 <gilbertdeb> why is the bfbasic compiler considered esoteric?
04:12:56 <SamB> bf is esoteric, right?
04:13:47 <gilbertdeb> thats my question.
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2003-03-20:

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2003-03-21:

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02:41:24 <lament> Hail Eris!
03:00:15 <lament> K
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2003-03-22:

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01:14:39 <rwxrwxrwx> Hi
01:41:34 <lament> hi. It's rather quiet here, but you can always read the logs and reply to month-old conversations.
02:43:00 -!- dbc has joined.
02:52:30 <dbc> "We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."
02:52:51 <dbc> Well, that's nice to know. Now I can stop worrying and go back to my normal life in a pleasant city without bombs falling on it.
02:55:13 <dbc> With the assurance that our leaders are acting only from the purest of motives, in the interest of all mankind.
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05:43:30 <calamari> hi
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2003-03-24:

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2003-03-25:

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2003-03-26:

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02:26:12 <calamari> hi
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02:32:57 <calamari> hi lament
02:33:55 <lament> HI
02:34:27 <calamari> whats the latest news in esoteric land?
02:35:17 <lament> I joined the channel
02:36:23 <calamari> heh
03:29:24 <calamari> bbl
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15:11:25 <iamcal> i totally forgot this channel exists
15:11:57 <Taaus> What a coincidence! The channel totally forgot that YOU exist! :P
15:12:21 <iamcal> :)
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06:07:28 <calamari> hi
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