2003-02-01:

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00:27:46 <exarkun> heya lament 
00:30:21 <lament> hi.
00:31:32 <exarkun> have you used PyUI at all?
00:31:54 <lament> no.
00:32:01 <exarkun> Fudge
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02:20:37 <andreou> hey
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02:20:59 <lament> Ah, the famous andreou apparition.
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20:13:03 <andreou> hey
20:13:15 <lament> hi
20:13:34 <andreou> what's up;
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2003-02-02:

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01:57:37 * redmist is away: I am so away
01:59:25 <lament> that's good.
01:59:39 <lament> More people should be away.
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02:55:06 <redmist> hehe
03:10:07 <dbc> This is not my beautiful house!
03:20:04 <dbc> No dice.
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05:32:21 <exarkun> Heh
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2003-02-03:

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11:37:46 <dbc> - -   - -         - -   - -                           - -   - -         - -   - -
13:28:22 <Taaus> Cantor would be proud of you :)
14:03:48 <exarkun> heh
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21:01:18 <andreou> hey
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2003-02-04:

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2003-02-05:

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14:03:10 <andreou> hello world
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2003-02-06:

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02:55:06 <dbc> >>>+>>>>>+>>+>>+[<<],[
02:55:06 <dbc> >>>>>+<<<<<-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<+>-[>+<-[>-<-[-[-[<-<+++++++++
02:55:06 <dbc> [>>[-[<+>-]]<[-[>+<-]]<-]>>[<+>-[<->[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
02:55:06 <dbc> <<<[>+<-]>>[<[-]<+>>-]<[>>>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>[
02:55:06 <dbc> -<+[
02:55:06 <dbc> ->++++++++++<[>-<-]+>[<+++++++++>[<->-]+[>>>>>>]]
02:55:08 <dbc> <[>+<-]>[>>>>>++>[-]]<
02:55:10 <dbc> ]<<<<<[<<<<<<]>>>>
02:55:12 <dbc> ],
02:55:14 <dbc> ]<++>+>>[
02:55:16 <dbc> [+++++>>>>>>]<+>+[[<++++++++>-]<.<<<<<]>>>>>>>>
02:55:18 <dbc> ]
02:57:24 <lament> hi.
02:59:47 <dbc> Hi. Just thought I'd premiere my latest piece of work here :)
03:00:01 <Taaus> Waduzitdo?
03:01:05 <dbc> :0 it's the Unix utility wc.
03:01:12 <dbc> counts lines, words, and characters.
03:01:30 <dbc> I settled for tabbing before each number, rather than right-justifying within fields :)
03:29:48 <exarkun> Nice
03:36:47 <dbc> thanks.
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19:33:15 * tav wonders at what gets discussed here
19:35:04 <exarkun> esoteric programming languages
19:42:24 <tav> does that generally mean languages like brainf*ck or the likes of oz, ocaml, etc?
19:42:52 <exarkun> the former :)
19:44:00 <tav> heh
19:44:10 <tav> is there any channel activity?
19:45:31 <exarkun> from time to time
19:45:53 <exarkun> mostly in the evening, EST, I think
19:46:04 <exarkun> clog has logs up someplace
19:48:30 <tav> noticed http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric, but not much has seemed to have happened
19:50:00 <tav> so, besides brainfuck, what are other interesting esoteric languages?
19:50:13 <exarkun> I'm a big fan of Funge 98
19:50:37 <exarkun> I think I'm the only one though
19:51:32 <tav> i've come into contact with a certain befunge, take it they are related?
19:51:42 <tav> (don't know much about it though)
19:51:46 * tav goes off to google
19:51:54 <exarkun> yea
19:52:09 <exarkun> Funge is arbitrary-dimensional though, over an unbounded space
19:52:27 <exarkun> And includes a few things to make you sick, like threading support
20:09:56 <fizzie> funge also has the extension mechanism, which makes it feel vaguely and disturbingly 'serious'.
20:21:33 <exarkun> Yes :)
20:21:50 <exarkun> I've implemented an interpreter for it, including socket extensions :)
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2003-02-07:

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03:43:22 <lament> welcome!
04:10:43 <SamB> are you going to spout something esoteric for me?
04:11:23 <lament> yes
04:34:39 <SamB> when?
04:36:38 <lament> When you reach level OT III
04:36:46 <dbc> :)
04:39:05 <SamB> OT III? is that scientologist or something?
04:39:37 <lament> That depends.
04:39:58 <SamB> on what?
04:40:11 <lament> On how much you're willing to pay.
04:40:31 <SamB> hehehhe
04:44:28 <dbc>               #   ##    #   ##                  #####    #               
04:44:28 <dbc>   #          ## #  #   ## #  #                  #####                    
04:44:28 <dbc>  # #          #    #    #    # #       ##        ## #    ##              
04:44:28 <dbc>            # ##    # # ##    #  #     #  #      ## ##            ###    #
04:44:28 <dbc>   #        ####    # ####    #   #   #    #     ######   ##     ##      #
04:44:29 <dbc>   ##                              # #      #     #####         ##       #
04:44:37 <dbc>               #         #         # #      #    #        ###  ##        #
04:44:37 <dbc>   #         # #        ##          #        #                 # #######  
04:44:37 <dbc>    #        # #      # ##          #        #    #       ### ##  #       
04:44:37 <dbc>      ##### # ##      # ##                    #  #            #    #     #
04:44:39 <dbc> #### #   # # ##      #  #                    # #      #  #  ##     #   # 
04:44:41 <dbc>       ####                ############ ###     ########     ##      #   #
04:44:43 <dbc> ## #  ## #    #         # ##### ## # #### #  ######     #   ##       # ##
04:44:45 <dbc>         ##    #        ##                      ########     ##      #   #
04:44:47 <dbc> # ##       # ##       ###                    # #      #  #  ##     #    #
04:44:49 <dbc>            # ##      #  #         # #        #  #            #    #    ##
04:44:51 <dbc> #  #       #  #      #  #         # #        #   #       #   ##  #       
04:44:53 <dbc>                                  #   #      #                 # #######  
04:44:55 <dbc>  ###          #   ##    #   ##   #   #      #     #     ###   ##        #
04:44:57 <dbc>              ## #  #   ## #  #  #     #    #      #     ###    ##       #
04:44:59 <dbc>  # #          #    #    #    # #       #  #  #### # ### ###     ##      #
04:45:01 <dbc>            # ##    # # ##    #          ##                       ###    #
04:45:03 <dbc>   ##       ####    # ####    #                    #                      
04:45:25 <SamB> is that life?
04:45:36 <dbc> In what sense?
04:45:51 <lament> is that weird?
04:45:53 <SamB> game-of-life
04:46:24 <SamB> it sure looks funny
04:46:25 <dbc> lament, in what sense?
04:46:31 <dbc> SamB, no.
04:46:32 * SamB knows what lament means
04:47:29 * SamB wonders if dbc will stop asking "in what sense" soon
04:47:29 * dbc thought lament might mean "is that written in Wierd", but thought he would ask
04:48:12 <lament> no, it was a rhetorical question
04:49:06 * SamB wants an `esoterica' task in debian
04:49:24 <dbc> If you can't figure this out, the aliens haven't a prayer of doing so :/
04:50:12 <SamB> oooooh, its part of the message to the aliens?
04:50:33 <SamB> or is that the *whole thing*?!!!
04:51:08 <SamB> we should send them rosetta disks instead
04:51:14 <lament> haha
04:51:31 <lament> better yet, the easter island statues
04:51:48 <lament> dbc: can you translate that?
04:51:59 <SamB> we couldn't get those off the ground...
04:52:27 <dbc> Sort of. at left we have binary numbers up to ten.
04:52:55 <SamB> being written in binary, its practically illegible
04:53:07 <dbc> Then a list of the atomic numbers of those elements involved in DNA...
04:54:11 <dbc> then a little chunk of DNA, with sugar-phosphate backbone at top and bottom, and base pairs in the middle.
04:55:13 <dbc> (not the structure, of course...just an inventory of atoms, counts in positions that match the list to the left.)
04:56:18 <SamB> we should really send them some mostly analog info...
04:56:57 <dbc> Then a rough image of the helical shape of DNA, combined with (I think) the length of a human's DNA...let me check.
04:57:31 <dbc> Male or female, I wonder?
04:57:32 <SamB> and then theres the little man...
04:58:18 <SamB> undifferentiated due to miniscule size, I think
04:58:40 <dbc> Right. A little man between the human population of the Earth, and the height of a human in radio wavelengths.
04:58:57 <dbc> I mean is the count of DNA length for male or female. The female one is longer, right?
04:59:26 <lament> I feel really dumb. I don't even see the binary numbers.
04:59:40 <SamB> X is much bigger then Y
05:00:03 <dbc> Then we have a very crude depiction of the solar system, and a picture of the Arecibo dish with a number specifying its diameter.
05:00:08 <SamB> the numbers are horizontal in this view?
05:00:14 <dbc> (in radio wavelengths, again.)
05:00:44 <SamB> how do we know where the numbers start and stop?
05:00:48 <dbc> Yes. And are terminated with 1 digits.
05:00:53 <dbc> ## = 1
05:00:58 <dbc> # # = 2
05:01:09 <dbc> ## # = 6
05:02:01 <SamB> how would you know that ## # was 6 and not, for example, 1 followed by 0?
05:02:57 <dbc> Well, they usually put one number per line. Though they may go to the next line if they run out of space...
05:04:22 <dbc> It's not the clearest imaginable system...
05:04:28 <SamB> its indecipherable, I tell you
05:04:43 <SamB> unless you already know the data, of course
05:05:51 <lament> right.
05:05:57 <dbc> Yes and no. I think it's decipherable by some people who've never seen it but have a good knowledge of biology. Not by people who don't.
05:06:00 <lament> "height in wavelengths"? What the fuck.
05:06:12 <dbc> wavelengths of the radio wave used to send the message.
05:06:27 <dbc> I suppose that's the measurement of length they thought would be clearest :/
05:06:39 <SamB> thats what I meant by "know the data"
05:08:07 <lament> Why is our height even important to aliens?
05:08:12 <dbc> Clear enough.
05:08:23 <dbc> lament it probably isn't :/
05:10:11 <lament> or the length of our DNA - that's not even important to humans.
05:10:28 <lament> IIRC the length of the dna is absolutely meaningless
05:10:41 <dbc> lament right.
05:11:30 <lament> brb.
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05:11:41 <dbc> Besides, they just zapped this off once. You'd need steady transmission to have a hope of having it received. The thing was really just proof-of-concept...
06:34:19 <exarkun> not -absolutely-, but it is only weakly correlated with organism complexity
06:35:40 <SamB> they would probably have more luck with TV signals!
06:36:00 <exarkun> tv signals are pretty straightforward
06:36:35 <exarkun> any alien life that can pick up em radiation in the same spectrum as us (not necessarily without mechanical aid) could probably decipher them pretty quickly
06:36:39 <SamB> right back now == be back in a nour and a half or more?
06:37:06 <SamB> yeah, much easier then binary nonsense like that, eh?
06:37:20 <exarkun> yea.. analog is too easy :)
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06:49:36 <SamB> deltab_: what is meaning of "deltab"?
06:58:58 -!- lament has joined.
07:22:03 <deltab_> good question
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07:25:57 * lament reads the logs
07:25:58 <lament> haha.
07:26:05 <lament> 11:35:04 <exarkun> esoteric programming languages
07:26:05 <lament> 11:42:24 <tav> does that generally mean languages like brainf*ck or the likes of oz, ocaml, etc?
07:30:18 <deltab_> both, I'd say
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2003-02-08:

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04:33:27 <lament> hello, clog
04:33:29 <lament> hello, dbc
04:33:32 <lament> hello, deltab_
04:33:36 <lament> hello, fizzie
04:33:42 <lament> hello, lament
04:33:45 <lament> hello, Taaus
04:33:48 <lament> hello, tav
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08:24:17 <dbc> ######################################################
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08:24:24 <dbc> ######################################################
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08:24:44 <dbc> ######################################################
08:24:47 <dbc> ##  ####  ####  ####  ####  ####  ####  ####  ####  ##
08:24:48 <dbc> ######################################################
08:24:50 <dbc> ######      ############      ############      ######
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08:25:00 <dbc> ######################################################
08:25:12 <lament> bah
08:25:23 <lament> your carpet is full of holes!
08:28:51 <dbc> Why do you think I gave it to you guys?
08:39:35 <lament> in fact, it has too many holes
08:40:35 <lament> my favourite fractal is still cantor's dust :)
08:44:26 <lament> pardon
08:44:33 <lament> i mean cantor's set
08:47:11 <lament> but cantor's dust is still prettier than the carpet
08:48:17 <dbc> ##################################################
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08:48:38 <dbc> ##############################  ##      ##########
08:48:40 <dbc> ##  ##      ##  ##  ##      ##  ##      ##  ##  ##
08:48:42 <dbc> ######      ######  ##      ##############  ######
08:48:44 <dbc> ##  ##      ##  ##  ##      ##  ##  ##  ##  ##  ##
08:48:46 <dbc> ##  ##############################  ##########  ##
08:48:48 <dbc> ##  ##  ##  ##      ##      ##  ##  ##      ##  ##
08:48:50 <dbc> ##########  ##      ##################      ######
08:48:52 <dbc> ##      ##  ##      ##  ##      ##  ##      ##  ##
08:48:54 <dbc> ##      ##############  ##      ##################
08:48:56 <dbc> ##      ##      ##  ##  ##      ##  ##      ##  ##
08:48:58 <dbc> ##################################################
08:49:00 <dbc> There's another kind of floor for you...
08:49:17 <lament> hm, neat
08:49:55 <lament> what do you construct these things with?
08:50:31 <dbc> I output them from a graphics program as raw data, after setting the colors to numbers that match the ASCII values I want...
08:51:17 <dbc> and in some cases fiddle them a bit in a text editor afterward.
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22:52:40 <lament> ten people!!
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2003-02-12:

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01:39:59 <calamari> hi
01:40:56 <lament> hi!
01:42:57 <calamari> was messing with eso os today
01:43:20 <calamari> i think i have a pretty good system for output.. but input i am not so sure about
01:43:34 <lament> who needs input? :)
01:44:19 <calamari> for example, keyboard input... there is int 16h with a buffer on an intel machine.. but a lot of machines you might have to read an input port
01:44:29 <calamari> then buffer it yourself
01:44:55 <calamari> no big deal, but it complicates the kernel
01:45:29 <calamari> by putting dalek stuff in it
01:46:24 <calamari> mouse is another example.. this time there is no handy bios interrupt
01:47:06 <calamari> i could use irqs.. but is that portable?
01:49:07 <calamari> this hasnt already been done, has it? :)
01:51:58 <lament> i don't think so.
01:52:23 <calamari> ok
01:52:38 <calamari> any suggestions ?
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03:06:37 <calamari> @)
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2003-02-13:

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01:16:39 <calamari> <b>test</b>
01:17:02 <exarkun> <blink>test successful</blink>
01:17:07 <calamari> hehe hi
01:17:11 <exarkun> 'lo
01:17:41 <calamari> wanted to see how I could mess with the logging thing :)
01:18:18 <exarkun> Ahhh :P
01:18:25 <calamari> have you looked into eso at all? (the esoteric os)
01:18:30 * exarkun hasn't.
01:19:33 <calamari> i was working on it some the past few days, and kinda got stuck, as far as input.. such as keyboard, mouse, etc.  Can it be handled without using IRQs ?
01:19:48 <calamari> I doubt my HP48 calc has IRQ's :)
01:19:52 <exarkun> Zow
01:19:57 <exarkun> I am clueless.
01:22:11 <calamari> i was thinking of using streams for device output, but I could also use calls like linux 
01:22:35 <calamari> the problem with designing your own os is that you can do anything you want heheh
01:24:10 <calamari> i dunno how much interest there is in eso anymore tho
01:24:52 <calamari> iirc the original idea was to have an os that could even on minimal hardware.. just enough to ruun a bf interpreter, befunge, etc
01:25:51 <calamari> and all the programs would be written for a virtual machine, so the hardware would not matter
01:27:07 <calamari> hmm.. just got an idea for that input problem
01:29:12 <calamari> each device could have an initialization phase when booting up, where if it needed to set up an interrupt handler, buffer, etc, it could.  The buffer could be checked and sent back to the user program on StreamInput.. kind of like a windows message.  could be discarded, etc  
01:29:31 <calamari> that way i think i can keep the stream idea
01:29:56 <calamari> having a stream would be good for things like bf, where you are pretty limited in the i/o dept
01:31:56 <calamari> ahh the other good thing about this is it will put the work of being consistent with the os on the driver, instead of having os allowances and different rules for each device.
01:33:07 <calamari> so my hp48 calc keyboard could be remapped by the driver when buffering.. could make the alpha key work and not even pass that to the os
01:34:28 <calamari> if a driver wasnt compliant, that would just add to the esoteric experience
01:34:56 <calamari> exarkun: what do you think the command prompt should be like?  
01:35:10 <exarkun> a twirling baton
01:35:32 <calamari> sorry i misphrasded that.. the whole experience for running the program you want, etc
01:35:44 <calamari> command line i guess i dshould call it
01:35:49 <exarkun> heh :P
01:37:00 <exarkun> i dunno, something simple I guess.. could make a cheesy little menu, "configure interpreter", "run program", etc
01:37:02 <calamari> it would be easy to be too cruel, for example bf program to make filename 
01:37:26 <calamari> but i hope its not a bash clone either
01:37:26 <exarkun> yes, that is too cruel
01:38:48 <calamari> it wouldnt necessarily have to be weird just to be weird.. it could possibly be useful, but haved a big learning curve... i've not used vi, but i've heard it is that way
01:39:59 <calamari> hmm, maybe like tron ;)
01:41:02 <exarkun> heh!
01:41:49 <calamari> I HAVE PRIORITY ACCESS (like the computer cared what access he thought he had)
01:42:12 <calamari> hehe anyways
01:49:14 <calamari> maybe i have it all wrong.. maybe it SHOULD be like the bf thing.. only in the esofunk language.. kinda like when computers used to boot into basic
01:50:33 <calamari> if someone wants a sane command prompt they can write it themselves ;)
01:50:58 <calamari> ok, seems that i have decided
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03:19:19 <calamari> hi lament
03:25:00 <lament> hi.
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21:17:45 -!- Iceman01 has set topic: 'Brainfuck'.
21:18:47 <Iceman01> does anybody know brainfuck?
21:19:43 <Iceman01> hey I'm talking to you!!
21:20:45 * exarkun scurries beneath a table.
21:21:51 <deltab> heh
21:22:58 -!- exarkun has set topic: Trefunge > Brainfuck.
21:23:39 -!- Iceman01 has set topic: :PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP.
21:23:54 <exarkun> I'd express that in Trefunge, but linear text representations of three dimension programs are difficult, to say te least.
21:25:22 <Iceman01> bye dako!!!
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22:55:47 <calamari> hi
22:58:20 -!- calamari has set topic: possible ESOFunk VM instruction set http://www.azstarnet.com/~jeffryj/esofunk4.asm Suggestions please.

2003-02-14:

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03:02:16 <docelic> anyone remembers polyphase merge sort and the application of fibonacci numbers on it ?
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04:05:46 <lament> hair elis!
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19:33:09 <calamari> hello
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12:26:13 <andreou> power to the people
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2003-02-19:

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2003-02-20:

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04:09:09 <lament> Happy Chaoflux!
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14:29:05 <andreou> hello world
14:52:05 <andreou> dead people all over
14:52:14 <andreou> why are there so few of us?
14:52:23 <Taaus> Few dead people?
14:52:41 <andreou> few of us in #esoteric, and the people who are here are dead
14:52:41 <Taaus> The dead outnumber the living... 12 to 1, I think.
14:52:45 <andreou> except for you and me
14:52:47 <andreou> no i don't think so
14:52:51 <andreou> we're 6e9
14:52:57 <Taaus> Yes.
14:53:06 <andreou> at least i know that 99% of the scientists (total number) are alive
14:53:18 <Taaus> And?
14:53:40 <andreou> and nothing, just an observation :)
14:53:49 <Taaus> Hehe, fair enough :)
14:53:52 <deltab> 30 to 1, I heard
14:54:07 <andreou> yes, close enough
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22:51:55 <calamari> hi
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2003-02-21:

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03:22:09 <calamari> hi
03:32:51 <calamari> anyone out there tonight? 
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2003-02-23:

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06:10:05 <calamari> hi
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2003-02-24:

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00:14:57 <lori> good topic :-)
00:15:39 <lori> bye
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04:54:07 -!- lament has set topic: MAKE FOO, NOT WAR.
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2003-02-25:

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17:33:35 <calamari> hi
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2003-02-26:

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2003-02-27:

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2003-02-28:

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07:04:27 <lament> atari is fun.
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