< 1602201772 843783 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)a~a*:^~a*~^!a~a**S < 1602201772 988499 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :x(z)(y(z)) < 1602201781 28139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not sure if I interpreted the notation correctly.) < 1602201781 874235 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, you were fast < 1602201829 471227 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks fizzie! < 1602201920 629209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (y)(z)a~a*:^~a* < 1602201925 163906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (y)(z)a~a*:^~a*S < 1602201925 163938 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :y(z) < 1602201949 824892 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ix.io/2A9t -- with steps. < 1602202005 188673 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think my notation is backwards. I meant for x to be on top of the stack, not on the bottom < 1602202015 725936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ouch, not writing out the outer parenthesis < 1602202036 876959 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess a better way of asking my question would be (z)(y)(x) -> ((z)y)(z)x < 1602202069 436309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: ok that's slightly harder < 1602202081 909862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the problem with stacks, you never know which way around they are. < 1602202084 853921 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I thought it was hard < 1602202086 592036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can still compile lambda calculus to underload < 1602202103 109863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, though at least in underload they're always the way you took it < 1602202109 972010 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in Consumer Society too) < 1602202152 363859 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered today that there is a single concatenative combinator that is TC with quoting, a la iota in applicative combinator calculus < 1602202166 22749 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm trying to document it properly as a minimization of underload < 1602202219 107378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: the concatenative thing is a generalization of combinator calculus, isn't it, so that should be true because combinator calculus has a single universal combinator too < 1602202358 312198 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'd have to think about that. I'm not sure how obviously true it is, but I suspected it was true and went searching. It's actually really close to the construction of iota: let k be (y)(x) -> x, s' be (z)(y)(x) -> ((z)y)(z)x, then the sole sufficient combinator takes (x) -> (k)(s')x < 1602202375 27143 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a slightly adapted s combinator < 1602202383 391135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: it's not obvious at all < 1602202385 986810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither part is obvious < 1602202395 794178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still can't wrap my head around how underload works < 1602202410 555170 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly think of it as a term rewriting system < 1602202414 420444 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that easier to think about < 1602202425 415065 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the single generator for combinator calculus, I never bothered to try to understand that, it seems like a useless bit of trivia to me, hh < 1602202435 993566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think other people have verified it because it's not that hard with a computer these days < 1602202449 510101 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a minor fetish for minimization, so I spend a lot of time thinking about reducing these sorts of things < 1602202461 684156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This starts from a slightly different place: < 1602202462 595805 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((z)a(y)a(x)a)^**:^!~a~*a~^~!~a~**S < 1602202462 595848 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :((z)y)(z)x < 1602202527 660603 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks fizzie! < 1602202814 176297 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any way I can make this fish code smaller while keeping the string readable? (The \n is a newline, the code was testing on fishlanguage.com) 10"Stick any string here!"r.\n l?!;o < 1602202851 361395 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602202996 525304 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: but the basic recipe is this. you want to do something with (x0)(x1)...(xn) on stack. first apply () ~a~* ... ~a~* ~a~* on it to fold it to one term ((x0)(x1)...(xn)); then L: duplicate or triplicate that with : or ::; then get a single term like (xk) from the top copy with like ^!...! ~!~!...~!~!; then possibly flip and get a single term from the middle one; then do one step of whatever you < 1602203002 579041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanted; then fold the result back into the bottom list with a*; then keep repeating this from L until you have every term you need separated inside one long list. < 1602203017 10724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's of course a lot of optimizations you can do on this. < 1602203081 249387 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602203159 195747 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602203227 301624 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)a~a~*~a~*:^!~a~*a~^~!~a~**S(just for completeness) < 1602203227 301678 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :((z)y)(z)x < 1602203322 89343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you're still quite fast in this < 1602203462 136917 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for your help friends. < 1602203471 719950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's impressive that there's only one colon in that < 1602203490 169957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it's not inside parenthesis) < 1602203570 669130 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)a~a*~a*:^a~*a~!~^a~!~**S(now with a little less unnecessary swapping) < 1602203570 776033 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :((z)y)(z)x < 1602203584 713959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though if it's just ONE colon then it doesn't help if it's inside parens. it only helps if there are two.) < 1602203652 334458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602203671 839888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohai < 1602203688 557123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally "write this combinator in Underload" is pretty straightforward if you know what you want the result to look like < 1602203697 177888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be done mechanically, if necessary < 1602203706 438593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you can do it in your head, that's the hard part < 1602203715 339406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you have read tom7's very apt description of git and the world around it, right? < 1602203730 902661 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, I need to spend a little more time with Underload < 1602203738 207203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no < 1602203749 474605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand enough about git to use it, and I still think it's a very good description < 1602203762 174026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: let me try this; the problem is to define C such that (z)(y)(x)C is equivalent to ((z)y)(z)x, right? < 1602203773 905701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: frontpage of http://radar.spacebar.org/ right now < 1602203779 871118 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Correct < 1602203791 851455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :permalink: http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1185 < 1602203795 156651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ouch, that's unreadably narrow, and I don't get a reaer mode option < 1602203824 333312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: go complain to tom7 then < 1602203828 773230 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you are calling C I am calling S' in line with the notation used in "The theory of concatenative combinators" by Brent Kirby < 1602203841 759559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, this site uses tables for layout < 1602203873 174943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and specifies widths as an exact number of pixels < 1602203898 49493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's a blog that has existed continuously since 2000, with a new post every month, and tom7 just rewrote the script that serves it in a second programming language, where both of them are programming languages that he made himself < 1602203947 503294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically rewrote it to a newer, incompatible evolution of his own scripting language < 1602204012 555238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1602204019 166777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same scripting language that implements http://snoot.org/ < 1602204112 874886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the problem with git is that it solves a problem in a very simple, elegant, and straightforward way, but unfortunately it isn't the problem that git users actually wanted it to solve < 1602204205 725198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the table was 546 wide, specified in a plain HTML attribute, no CSS, since 2000 apparently: view-source:https://web.archive.org/web/20001018141700/http://radar.spacebar.org/ < 1602204271 98994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~a:(~*a)~a*^)~a*^*S < 1602204271 99073 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(z)x < 1602204292 401455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have I done wrong, I wonder? (that was my first attempt done in my head, no helper programs) < 1602204297 562660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nothing < 1602204299 455216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~a:(~*a)~a*^)~a*^*SS < 1602204299 562067 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(z)x((z)y) < 1602204307 764183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just didn't print out the stack properly < 1602204332 606890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think I have one level of quoting too much < 1602204356 303152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~a:(~*)~a*^)~a*^ < 1602204365 133820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~a:(~*)~a*^)~a*^SSS < 1602204365 133867 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :x(z)(z)y < 1602204374 414059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that looks right < 1602204378 709610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~a:(~*)~a*^)~a*^aSaSaS < 1602204378 816086 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x)((z))((z)y) < 1602204384 138749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: there you go < 1602204429 875120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, (z) is still quoted too much < 1602204434 907353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. in particular, what I want solved is much closer to what svn solves than what git solves. an svn repository explicitly tracks what files in earlier versions are ancestors of a file, and which changes from a branch are merged into it and which aren't, even if I merge later changes from a branch but not merge earlier ones. git stores some of this and guesses about the rest heuristically, and < 1602204440 220225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~:(a~*)~a*^)~a*^aSaSaS < 1602204440 220265 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x)(z)((z)y) < 1602204440 926365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no easy way to make it remember what I think instead of what it guesses. < 1602204449 648893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(x)(~:(a~*)~a*^)~a*^^ < 1602204449 648942 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1602204462 631874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the x in orby's example wasn't in parens, so that runs it < 1602204466 750671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (z)(y)(SS)(~:(a~*)~a*^)~a*^^ < 1602204466 750718 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :z(z)y < 1602204471 913525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and svn also does partial checkouts or partial read-only replication. < 1602204540 162715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's frustrating, I have ideas about how to write a VCS but am unlikely to actually write it < 1602204549 947634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'd like is the best of svn but distributed. I should probably learn how the heck mercurial works. I think mercurial is probably better than git in some respects, worse in others, it won't solve all my problems, but at least I could learn something from it about version control. < 1602204578 556534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I don't like about Mercurial is that branches are expensive < 1602204588 152829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, me too. I'd like to write one that's based on svn, but makes it a distributed version control system. I might try to write something like it, but it won't be working stable enough. < 1602204618 631260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of svn's features, like consecutive revision numbers, seem somewhat incompatible with typical DVCS usage patterns < 1602204627 721066 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. svn does everything that it wants to do inexpensively, but sadly there are a few things that it really doesn't want to do, and those are expensive because you have to work them around. < 1602204643 223277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me about my eso-idea of a git hash bruteforcer < 1602204658 219417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the short hashes given to commits were in consecutive numerical order (possibly in decimal rather than hex) < 1602204670 72357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the first revision is 0000001, the second is 0000002, and so on < 1602204687 200105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck :) < 1602204687 646398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out that there actually isn't much you can change to make the hash match, apart from the commit message < 1602204708 261716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could mess with the whitespace < 1602204770 139481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but that just means that referring to stuff with version numbers won't be such a good idea anymore. that's not a problem. some web forums (of at least three different engines) have the same problem: in theory they number messages within a thread with consecutive numbers, so people sometimes refer to them by number in replies, but in practice moderation can cause new messages to appear with < 1602204776 193496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :older timestamps or older messages to disappear, such as when messages are moved among threads, in which case those numbers aren't stable, and the replies will be confusing. < 1602204818 437530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mod on a phpBB forum and I will normally edit messages down rather than delete them, for this reason < 1602204826 133732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically this happens on at least one wordpress blog's comment section, most phpbb forums, and http://www.komal.hu/forum which has its own engine < 1602204830 787608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if the content is inappropriate and needs to be removed) < 1602204831 854473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just mess with the committer name ;-) < 1602204839 201037 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602204856 760568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This message violates site rules and was deleted. — callforjudgement < 1602204867 506978 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but what do you do with messages that are unnecessarily posted to a new thread even though there's a good existing thread for them? < 1602204879 713883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can avoid deleting, but how do you avoid adding? < 1602204884 704465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you quote it in a new message? < 1602204898 808695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a message needs to be repeated elsewhere, yes, quote < 1602204921 316258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nature of this forum is pretty specialised, though, and messages being posted in the wrong place are very rare < 1602204941 403157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they were, it would likely be a case of either nothing needing to be done, or a near-banworthy offence, depending on context < 1602204948 183636 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602204956 969497 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602204977 309116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"git hash bruteforcer" => well yes, using SHA-1 and saying that it's ok because you'll only commit trustable data into the vcs rather than admitting that it's hard to change the hash function is a stupid decision, and using only 7 hexits is another stupid decision, but at least the latter isn't baked into git so I don't care > 1602204993 173381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77887&oldid=75326 5* 03Orby 5* (+1159) 10Introducing Sea: a three command simple translation of Underload < 1602205014 19894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the 7 nybble thing is actually not a requirement, it will expand to 8 (and possibly more?) in cases of collision < 1602205019 898524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the nybbles are stored internally < 1602205034 78801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I know < 1602205066 261937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I even have core.abbrev=16 in my global git settings < 1602205074 487611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it list 16 hexits by default < 1602205082 582516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still not all of the hash, but better than 8 < 1602205087 709065 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for some purposes I make it list all the hexits < 1602205098 554420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when it needn't be human-readable, but stored for machines < 1602205103 480839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you say "hexit" rather than "nybble"? hmm, maybe people wouldn't refer to a base-256 digit as a "byte" < 1602205106 64660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :git does that in its internal stuff too obviously, it's not that stupid < 1602205115 995169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it can be nybble too, sure < 1602205139 700972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexit is the text format numeral, nybble is the actual number < 1602205166 811459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, an idea I had recently: using algebraic numbers as the internal numerical type for a language < 1602205178 251748 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "A" is a hexit (except in git which uses lower case, another thing I hate, but at least it's consistent with the rest of the kernel, which also uses lowercase in a lot of debug messages and /proc and /sys text files), 0xA is a nybble < 1602205196 86237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's actually rather hard to implement < 1602205210 782668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other choices for esoteric number systems that are easier to implement < 1602205215 308132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be particularly good for declarative languages: if all you have is + - * ÷ ==, everything is fully closed except for division by 0 (which in a declarative language is not an error) < 1602205227 416651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem ridiculously hard to implement, just inefficient < 1602205247 905876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh if you don't implement < or rootof, then it's much easier < 1602205253 288202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it's much harder to use for anything useful < 1602205261 916139 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't get one of the square roots in any way < 1602205262 909421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rootof effectively exists within this set of operations < 1602205271 949274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I guess you could mess with the commit message and disguise it... say, have every commit message end in a weather forecast and a fortune. < 1602205284 850812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a declarative language, you just need to assign, say, X * X = 2 and then X is set to one of the square roots of 2 < 1602205289 294826 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can only get all the roots of a polynomial nondeterministically, and you can't distingiush among algebraic conjugates < 1602205304 201657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't even distinguish between sqrt(2) and sqrt(-2) < 1602205304 731308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can't get at any specific root < 1602205311 824763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, the formats look rather rigid. < 1602205312 874932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I assume you have 1 as a built-in too, right? < 1602205320 641312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a good thing, of course. < 1602205331 981227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you can distinguish between sqrt(2) and sqrt(-2), the former obeys X * X = 2, the latter doesn't < 1602205334 564080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... oh heck < 1602205339 193039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't distinguish between sqrt(2) and -sqrt(2), though < 1602205342 235171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, sorry, that < 1602205356 816871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm assuming that tree objects must contain entries in byte-based lexicographic order) < 1602205365 409689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want to generate 1 from some polynomial equations or something, that's possible < 1602205365 735700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, you can't just store numbers as an entire set of conjugates < 1602205372 559839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because say you have X * X = 2 and Y * Y = 2 < 1602205385 820740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then X + Y could nondeterministically be either 0 or sqrt(8) < 1602205387 225950 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :later all < 1602205391 183221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are not conjugate to each other < 1602205393 681149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orby: later < 1602205471 13362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and that's why you want to have < and <= and rootof as primitives too, where rootof takes a polynomial and an interval, and it returns one of the real roots of the polynomial in that interval. < 1602205506 633003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually need rootof as a primitive in a declarative language, if you have < and arithmetic < 1602205517 818181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just assign to an equation < 1602205537 480481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I guess in a declarative language you don't need it < 1602205546 451376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the interpreter has to implement it < 1602205574 349656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not rootof that's hard to impelement, it's < < 1602205586 545045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1602205593 439142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, < isn't even very well defined < 1602205600 327077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1602205603 451780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :complex numbers < 1602205605 770889 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1602205611 646081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need some sort of norm< < 1602205612 333834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider only real numbers < 1602205622 371907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it isn't algebraically closed any more < 1602205641 113000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want complex numbers, then add real part as a primitive too, and < should compare by real part first then imaginary part < 1602205658 106608 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have to be algebraically closed < 1602205665 727002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can simulate complex numbers from real numbers in user space < 1602205676 529159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean if you have rootof, not just powers < 1602205699 278517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :complex numbers aren't really harder, they just complicate everything < 1602205707 653733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or simplify, depending on which side you're looking form < 1602205708 233003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point of using algebraic numbers, if they don't give you an algebraically closed number system? < 1602205723 134590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicate if you have to implement stuff, simplify if you want to use it < 1602205733 15248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I guess you're right < 1602205736 983130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so complexes < 1602205743 526241 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you probably want real part as a primitive too < 1602205753 723744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess i < 1602205759 658037 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can distinguish between +i and -i < 1602205766 898116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < might do that anyway < 1602205770 557658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over the reals you have tools for counting roots in an interval. < 1602205777 299540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1602205777 512969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you do that in the complex numbers? < 1602205785 672270 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there's probably tools for that oo < 1602205787 291049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say, is there an equivalent for complex numbers? < 1602205789 752996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just less elegant < 1602205797 505002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure root isolation in the complex numbers exists < 1602205803 878636 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably < 1602205816 256103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :real numbers just have a nice elegant algorithm < 1602205820 600212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, elegant in theory < 1602205825 986380 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a hell to work with < 1602205837 725538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia has an article on real-root isolation but not complex-root isolation < 1602205842 926454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've followed one algebraic number development where root separation was a reason for keeping algebraic numbers real. < 1602205890 195599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And deal with complex numbers as pairs of real algebraic numbers.) < 1602205895 334474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's because nobody wants to actually implement it in full generality, or even describe it properly in writing. we know it's possible, and Mathematica implements it, let's leave it at that and let the Maxima fanatics deal with it. < 1602205964 80838 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course what I'm alluding to was a formalization effort... so there was also a strong incentive to keep things (relatively) simple. < 1602206011 415779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know a simple algorithm for deciding if an expression that contains field ops, real square roots, and real cube roots is negative. < 1602206026 352307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :without cube roots I do know an algorithm that I can explain < 1602206078 92151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with cube roots, you would need to work with algebraic numbers nonsense like finding a generator polynomial or something. the practical solution is to ask GAP and let it work its magic. < 1602206105 617602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the practical solution is to decide using interval arithmetic, but if it's zero, then ask GAP to prove it and let it work its magic < 1602206150 12386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that reminds me < 1602206163 796463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does any of you happen to have a backup of Plouffe's inverter? it fell off the web < 1602206174 856454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need it for anything urgent, it would just be nice to have a backup < 1602206196 570989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old address was https://isc.carma.newcastle.edu.au/ < 1602206421 593518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, branches being expensive is one of those things that kept me away from mercurial < 1602206448 10834 :orby!a2d2c09f@162.210.192.159 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602206482 967592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can tell why svn+distributed is hard to make work, but it's not the sequential version numbers < 1602206537 326990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the model I imagine there's still a good way to refer to a specific revision, or a file or directory in a revision. < 1602206640 426194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you found https://oeis.org/wiki/Plouffe's_Inverter (and the reference to ISC+, which is also down, but points to ISC, which is working but presumably far less powerful) < 1602206708 646086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theoretical problem is more like that some operations that I'd expect an ideal distributed vcs should implement efficiently would be implemented rather inefficiently (as in they'd have to rebuild the entire repository); the practical problem is that if I try to code this, it will either never be complete, or it will have so many bugs that can lose you data that the gaps are larger than the features. < 1602206729 785913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, I actually haven't looked there < 1602206736 409860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :git was originally intended to be a VCS backend, rather than a VCS < 1602206745 180932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised there aren't more VCSes that use it like that < 1602206811 39324 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, it works quite well as a vcs for the special case of developing the linux kernel, which indeed wants to send patches in email, has lots of distributed developers cherry-picking commits from each other, and puts only trusted text source files in the repository < 1602206828 474292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :git is actually very bad at cherry-picks < 1602206838 7341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't work as a backend for what I want, because it doesn't implement modifyable sparse checkouts < 1602206856 994106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cherry-pick from A into B followed by merge from A into B is an operation that git's model simply doesn't implement < 1602206861 73177 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, svn is better. but it works in the principled environment of linux kernel environment < 1602206869 327865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often works in practice, but only due to hacks designed to merge two identical-looking changes into one < 1602206895 408935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's sort of what I said above about not storing merge metadata < 1602206967 333451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you should also consider the historical context as an excuse though: git is old, svn only started to get merge tracking in the time that I remember, git had the hacks much before that < 1602206999 785501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically svn adds merge tracking in svn 1.5, which was released ... when? < 1602207020 5616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a moment, this is exactly something vcs should be able to tell < 1602207043 507111 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :released in 2008 < 1602207088 664072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :back long ago, when svn was not really ready, and the other contenders weren't anywhere, git was revolutionary < 1602207097 94006 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just didn't get developed as much as svn later < 1602207098 964474 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also Fossil, where it is stored as a set of artifacts each with identifiers, but I don't know if there are any implementations of the Fossil format other than Fossil itself. < 1602207125 680347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and git was what popularized the concept of distributed version control, mercurial and darcs came after that and took the good parts < 1602207240 914543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mercurial and git were developed at almost the same time, for the same reason < 1602207242 51048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I technically used svn in 2008, but not for anything nontrivial, I mostly just checked stuff out < 1602207267 858516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I admit I don't actually know the history, I'm just telling my impressoin < 1602207280 462432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Linux kernel used to use a proprietary VCS < 1602207281 200207 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602207282 47447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know when git gained what features < 1602207299 183282 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I heard that, Linus decided to make his own tools, just like Knuth < 1602207303 376260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone working on it reverse-engineered part of its internal protocol, so that they could script it more easily or something < 1602207308 999323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the company making it got mad < 1602207325 625217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there was demand for a replacement VCS in a hurry < 1602207331 549887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he wasn't satisifed with the existing tools < 1602207343 835509 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1602207345 800455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much "wasn't satisfied" as "was suddenly banned from using" < 1602207357 675347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, git is better for the Linux kernel than Perforce anyway < 1602207373 191580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1602207382 313631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, Perforce's manufacturers probably rather shot themselves in the foot, by inspiring the creation of a free competitor that has outcompeted them quite badly < 1602207401 513997 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux was using BitKeeper, not Perforce. < 1602207428 933505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, they might be laughing at us that they can point to how bad git is and they're offering an alternative to common people that is more down to earth < 1602207441 292705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah, OK < 1602207499 276281 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602207779 69733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, apparently BitKeeper ended up as open source < 1602207830 189402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what happened to it after the debalce in question < 1602207855 384030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :different topic. in Spelunky 2, shopkeepers usually have a skeleton key that you can get if you kill them. skeleton keys are reusable and can open any doors that silver keys can open. this makes absolutely no sense in-game, and I think it comes from nethack. in nethack it makes some sort of sense, because it wants shopkeepers to be able to open locked doors. < 1602207886 782161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think this is a D&D heritage < 1602207913 525387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a spelunky 2? < 1602207916 321983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1602207918 908675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was released recently < 1602207933 703386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Playstation and Windows Steam < 1602207971 73812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nice game, very faithful to Spelunky HD, from its creator, a worthy sequel and good game < 1602207993 949725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw someone on the Internet play Spelunky 2 just recently, and wondered about that. < 1602208007 831190 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looked like it had a bit more branching in the sequence of levels or something. < 1602208010 990317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen much of it on twitch. I'm thoroughly spoiled of the known stuff now. < 1602208031 562702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, zone 2 and zone 4 has two alternative biomes that you choose by entering one of the two exits of the last level of the previous zone < 1602208060 712611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zone 2 is either jungle or volcano, zone 4 is either egypt-themed or water + east asia themed < 1602208180 901162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are also optional boss levels that you enter to via secret levels, an optional 7th zone, and SPOILER an optional "infinite" hard postgame area that is quite hard to enter because you need to get there specific artifacts from three zones (in the intended route; you can actually skip one of them but it's harder) < 1602208204 648398 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, four specific artifacts, but one you probably alwyas get anyway < 1602208214 856259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other three only has this one use < 1602208230 7768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's more complicated < 1602208255 299202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one artifact that lets you into the optional 7th zone, and two that together let you from there to the postgame area < 1602208265 286892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty nice design < 1602208285 365497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are probably some secrets still not discovered, because the game and especially the Windows release is quite new < 1602208311 842017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even besides this zone stuff, the overall gameplay and movement seems really well thought out, except for one specific common item that many people hate < 1602208362 711776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably write a summary of the worlds at some point < 1602208368 472435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly to me to understand it < 1602208374 643792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a pretty nice design < 1602208400 136983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems surprisingly similar to Spelunky HD, more of an expansion pack than anything < 1602208408 875088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's a good thing that people release those as new versions, though < 1602208409 301881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with like eleven different biomes (set of map tiles and enemies) < 1602208421 253394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old-fashioned way of doing games has been mostly abandoned nowadays < 1602208440 35840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's a new game, but very heavily appeals to the fans of Spelunky HD, so much that good Spelunky players can learn it much easier, because the movement and controls are very similar < 1602208463 386263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many elements are taken from HD too, like many enemies and items and world themes < 1602208529 637720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played the original (not HD) but I'm not all that good at it < 1602208540 530870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'd enjoy it more if it were turn-based, even though it's a platformer < 1602208564 426267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: think of classic game series like Age of Empires, Warcraft, Settlers. new games, but the good parts of design taken, so easier to learn if you know the previous game. < 1602208586 141117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, it's a very old-fashioned way to do a game sequel < 1602208596 207950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1602208601 242673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays that sort of thing's normally done as DLC rather than a sequel < 1602209131 861040 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602209165 614371 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1602209204 871284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: dunno, to me the contrast is more like that nowadays games are short-lived and gimmicky, they want to sell a new idea that people find fun for a year or two, or for six years in case of the most successful games, but then put away and stop playing, and the manufacturer stops pretending to care about it; old games tried to make a good stable base that you can play for a much longer time, and if < 1602209210 979041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they succeed, the game becomes a classic that only needs a few tweaks. < 1602209233 461685 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, many computer games made these days are not as good as before (although there are exceptions). < 1602209260 511135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe this is entirely just a false nostalgic view, obviously I don't know about games released in the last two years that have become classics and people have been playing them for decades, < 1602209281 621348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think so much about all the throwaway old games, only the ones that succeeded to become classics. < 1602209357 420793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is quite possible that Super Mario Odyssey will become one of these classics, and it will be speedran even 15 years from now, together with SM64 and Sunshine < 1602209383 117207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there were many bad games before, too, but people don't remember them as well < 1602209385 603129 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas Zelda: Breath of the Wild, which some people hastily declared the best game ever, will be forgotten) < 1602209392 937754 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. < 1602209428 756878 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that is true. (And it happens with other works too.) < 1602209630 751840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh by the way, it turns out that the IBM Selectric 1 and 2 really exist, my conspiracy theory that it's war propaganda (or practical joke) spread by Americans about how advanced seemingly impossible technology they had so long ago is false < 1602209702 566701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird how many old writings mention these typewriters, but there are so few first-hand observations from contactible people who used the machines back when they were new, and so few remaining examinable copies < 1602209849 109490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand how a mechanical typewriter with a single electric motor and no electronics can move that crazy ball-shaped head; how it isn't unusable because the glyphs adjacent on the head to the one you want to stamp leave faint marks; how it has a pure mechnical full lockout mechanism so you can't press two keys at the same time; and how it doesn't even attempt to lay the glyphs on the < 1602209855 133834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ball out in such a way that the widest glyphs are close to the equator < 1602209884 145147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even though it almost certainly exists, to me it's similar to washing machines, it exists but it's supposed to be impossible < 1602210049 106043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the last straw against the conspiracy theory is https://www.marklin-users.net/cookee_nz/hobbies/IBM/IBMSelectricAPM-Nov1980.pdf , too detailed, I don't believe it could be faked for a conspiracy < 1602210075 873108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the details mentioned might be misremembered, but overall they're real typewriters < 1602210309 220386 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen that some features of Pokemon games are not as good as the previous games. While I agree, this is not specific to Pokemon and occurs with a lot of series. > 1602210657 179605 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck extensions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77888&oldid=71170 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+277) 10Add 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel to the appropriate lists < 1602210667 691818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: huh, do you not believe in washing machines? < 1602210839 176778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do believe in washing machines, but they're magical, I don't see how they can have the practical effectiveness and reliability that they have as measured by practice, given that we basically know what they have (modulo some secrets that the manufacturers have about recent innovations) < 1602210872 167806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you mean the mainline games like Sword/Shield, or side products like Pokemon Let's Go or Pokemon Go < 1602210922 31981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I use a washing machine and commercial washing detergents, and I'm glad that they work so well (admittedly there's some luck here in that I have a model that works well), but I don't understand why they work so well < 1602210930 460439 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I mean the mainline games; the side products are not separate. < 1602211027 110073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the best Pokémon games for replay value are HGSS and B2W2, and BW are best if you are planning to only play through once < 1602211046 578891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by replay value I mostly mean grinding the postgame, rather than playing multiple times < 1602211108 349016 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also some games will improve some things, and make others worse.) < 1602211141 419007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think actually every Pokémon game does this < 1602211161 690664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't help that through much of the series' lifetime, Game Freak would create two Pokémon games in parallel < 1602211181 475472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was typically the case that a new feature in one game would disappear in the next, and might then reappear in the game after < 1602211537 108307 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that it is. < 1602211573 653058 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A lot of computer games are just made too easy. That happens with everything though, and often they do not even add a difficulty selection menu. However, there are self-imposed challenges, at least.) < 1602211692 250027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is much more common for computer games to be too easy than too hard < 1602211703 357857 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1602212122 874907 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you ever get a game that starts out very easy and then transitions to nearly impossible with no discernable ramp inbetween? < 1602212128 902965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just happening to me < 1602212155 33917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't have a concrete example right now I'm afraid) < 1602212201 925919 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have a example either < 1602212336 697353 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps see https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Difficulty_Spike < 1602213167 374853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some games which don't have consistent internal mechanics, they're just a case of "guess what the devs are thinking" < 1602213179 721441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those can have a ramp like that for some players but not others, when they fail to guess < 1602214437 380999 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :BTRider < 1602214442 232200 :BTRider!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602214447 549854 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :s3423 < 1602214453 99333 :s3423!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :frrrrrr < 1602214484 7000 :frrrrrr!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :deltta < 1602214486 143051 :deltta!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602218294 751468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1602226524 620505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1602228106 796313 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77889&oldid=77885 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+100) 10Clarification > 1602228144 191443 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77890&oldid=77889 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10Whole halt < 1602228320 72089 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1602228835 55787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77891&oldid=77890 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+16) 10Clarification > 1602228866 860915 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77892&oldid=77891 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Capitalization > 1602229279 437380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77893&oldid=77892 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+136) 10Added input storage > 1602229320 665890 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77894&oldid=77893 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10Prulal, no Plural < 1602230902 712657 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1602231003 783487 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602231474 593530 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-104.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602231754 572761 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602231789 59195 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602231926 967421 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602232388 422217 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602233138 401935 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a JOIN :#esoteric < 1602234054 30879 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-104.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really hate it when someone's explanation of something includes phrases like "It's easy, really" or "You could have invented it yourself". < 1602234968 368587 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1602235361 312509 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the one I hate is posts that start like "I am surprised that nobody has mentioned [...]" in a thread with an open-ended question where you could mention a huge amount of examples, when the thread is clearly not trying to be a comprehensive list, and the post is sometimes posted just a few hours after the thread starts. < 1602235468 875371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that phrase is never appropriate, and it's my pet peeve < 1602235739 887907 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic < 1602235898 613245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602236549 757310 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems TIME CUBE has some roots: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubical_atom < 1602236611 249983 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :carthorse & everyone else who wants to : read this doc if you have the time : https://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/taxil_confessed.html < 1602236630 714656 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the freemasonry conspiracy theories of today are based on an ancient troll from 200 years ago < 1602236653 613770 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, moreso ~125 years ago < 1602236658 908711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: of course it has roots! Gene Ray doesn't seem to admit it, but he took the idea of the square earth straight from the Bible, as Roger M. Wilcox explains in http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html < 1602236679 35486 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, wrong channel < 1602236680 861210 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1602236705 793220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1602236749 873499 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, this came out well. arseniiv talks about the roots of Time Cube, then delta23 starts to talk about ancient freemason trolls < 1602236860 396013 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo :( < 1602237030 160078 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not a coincidence < 1602237262 126990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that square-earthiness proof is more or less neat but what if the true metric is non-euclidean: then square-nonsquare dichotomy is a bit different and there are also four natural corners, null corners (or four natural side midpoints). In fact Earth then can be the “circle” with four corners < 1602237315 157681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two glued circles. still with four corners < 1602237361 329665 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we shall leave this revelation private to this channel < 1602237410 253244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, have you noticed what a troll the First Council of Nicaea was about the date of Easter? It was well known that Christ was crucified on Pesach and resurrected two days after, and the Council agreed with this. < 1602237417 527359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need an agreed upon univeral method for when to celebrate the crucifiction and the resurrection, so that corrupt local clergy can't be bribed as for what the date is, as was usual in those times. So do we celebrate it on Pesach? No, that would be too simple. < 1602237450 569142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invent a completely different rule that's just as hard to implement in practice as the version of the Hebrew calendar used back then, that puts Easter vaguely at the same season as Pesach, and would later be forked to like three or four different modern methods for Easter date in schisms. Now we have two problems. < 1602237714 875163 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the Council of Nicaea decided for certain is that Christians should celebrate Easter on the same day independently of the Hebrew calendar, if I remember correctly < 1602237750 779311 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which calendar? < 1602237767 297601 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the early christians believed in the book of enoch (c. Jude) < 1602237774 409480 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_controversy <-- this covers most of it but there's nothing about the Gregorian calendar for some reason < 1602237778 394464 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to convert to enoch cal next lol < 1602237785 614168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it's ever easy to make a good calendar if it must be tied to both Earth days and (at least one of moon phases or seasons), because if you try to make a mathematically deterministic version, you'll run into problems in a few tens of thousand years just because we can't predict Earth's rotation well enough. < 1602237801 977679 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: enoch cal had that problem < 1602237821 411522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: then who started the habit of Easter always being on Sunday, when Pesach can fall on any of four days of the week? < 1602237896 487484 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "final" Julian calendar Easter computations originated in Alexandria, and according to that WP page the Syriac Christians also celebrated on a Sunday < 1602237905 748234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically both the hebrew calendar and the roman calendar stared as being tied to the actual astronomical stuff, then later they adopted possibly short-sighted mathematically defined methods, just so the calendars can be predicted infinitely far, and they don't care if it will be out of sync with astronomy in a few ten thousand years (or in the case of the Julian calendar, in just a thousand years) < 1602237933 995091 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roman was never tied to astronomical stuff, pre-Julian it was always ad-hoc < 1602237969 729831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: the Romans did tie it to days and seasons, loosely. it wasn't well-defined enough to follow any rule, like I said about corrupt local clergy. < 1602237982 247297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps we should admit why a mathematically deterministic methods can't work for the long term, and not pretend that it's the one deterministic method that will work forever, < 1602238034 925657 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a virtual world which runs on a deterministic calendar < 1602238055 270721 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found a couple of people who tried to match leap years to the tropical year by ridiculously long leap cycles, like millions of years < 1602238056 775228 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead make the calendar depend on astronomical observations, but no on such a short term as the traditional Hebrew calendar, but predictable for a few thousand years into the future, which would have been good enough for messengers from a central Astronomical authority to get around even in Roman times < 1602238093 444746 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the Iranian calendar? < 1602238094 900882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly computers and atomic clocks and GPS make it easier, but it's not like the principle was impossible two hundred years ago < 1602238125 507108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: yes, and those attempts can't work, because we can't predict how long days will last accurately enough < 1602238165 342797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're misguided toys designed by mathematically inclined people who don't understand the astronomical background < 1602238175 630343 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed < 1602238184 665595 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas what I say is misguided for political and societal reasons, not for astronomical reasons < 1602238209 115374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bb in a few hours < 1602238215 942824 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The people who designed the French Republican calendar wanted the year to start on the equinox, but then they found that one equinox was predicted to be 20 seconds before midnight with an error margin in the tens of minutes < 1602238255 37033 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Year 144 of the Republican calendar < 1602238608 103385 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a calendar w/ 10 days in a week < 1602238611 356316 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 weeks per month < 1602238614 737466 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 months per year < 1602238617 538670 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1602238673 973490 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone's probably done that already < 1602238717 315931 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was Donald Knuth --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potrzebie#System_of_measurement < 1602240649 266389 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-104.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1602241365 772373 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nccotfayvqcthcii QUIT :Quit: killed < 1602241369 212131 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xysbefdultvkpnah QUIT :Quit: killed < 1602241371 333774 :Discordian[m]!discordi1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-npsqkpnahstroizz QUIT :Quit: killed < 1602241829 333539 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602241887 17825 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xowhpcdmrwudbqpq JOIN :#esoteric < 1602242086 994377 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: we only had atomic clocks for fifty years. anything we know about how the length of the day changed before that are lucky accidents, where some ancient civilization left records of astronomical observations of the year, month, eclipses, Venus phases, and these are usable only in the rare case when we can clearly determine how many days < 1602242087 633149 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ago the dates mentioned were, which is often impossible because of the imprecise calendar keeping. < 1602242372 676306 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read the Stephenson/Morrison/Hohenkirk paper? > 1602242457 740597 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ThisIsTheFoxe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77895&oldid=70128 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+1) 10typo < 1602242570 168426 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Hohenkerk < 1602242957 163237 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1602243242 553084 :deltaepsilon23_!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243266 269402 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1602243266 621876 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1602243266 740760 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1602243266 843817 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split < 1602243266 843858 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1602243269 81174 :deltaepsilon23_!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :deltaepsilon23 < 1602243280 56552 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602243285 92572 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243352 223855 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-samogjnbcdqczjhs JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243358 933087 :iscordian[m]!discordi1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rzgzeitheqknxyvg JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243614 44472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243614 44528 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243614 44536 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602243638 1344 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/417/4/2714/1095659 <-- if you want a laugh < 1602243778 603179 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: sorry, that's not the sort of topic I can really laugh about, even if I can see the parody. It's more like sad that we got there. < 1602243810 612127 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well < 1602243843 144380 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally am selling my skills of solving problems the traditional way, by translating common sense rules to a computer program, rather than trying to use machine learning to divine rules from examples. < 1602243893 840143 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I find the hype of trying to apply machine learning (and before that, GPU computations, and before that, multithreading, and before that, just in time compiling) even in cases when it makes the problems harder rather sad. < 1602243975 830640 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to learn enough about all those hyped methods to know when they're useful and when you should ask an expert in those topics, which is a lucky case because they're a dime a dozen now, with every college course trying to teach those fashionable topics only and getting rid of more useful research departments that try to make publications without < 1602243976 364402 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding today's marketing keywords. < 1602243994 66678 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspa.2016.0404 <-- anyway, here's the paper I mentioned earlier < 1602244059 921793 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead I just understand enough of both mathematics and programming, but only the basics of both, and this combination is apparently rare enough to be worth something as a job skill, despite that it's a natural pairing. < 1602244092 123944 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-104.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602244116 645675 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_; yes, that's the good article, I have seen that one < 1602244287 848283 :iscordian[m]!discordi1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rzgzeitheqknxyvg NICK :Discordian[m] < 1602244575 7450 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably ramble on for calendar-related topics about some time < 1602244826 349279 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like calendar reform < 1602244920 175045 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: have you read these first? https://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html http://www.quadibloc.com/science/calint.htm < 1602244941 860801 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Several times < 1602244957 986252 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good < 1602244970 9085 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a third one somewhere but I forgot < 1602245010 705847 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://myweb.ecu.edu/mccartyr/calendar-reform.html <-- this, perhaps? < 1602245012 88301 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then of course http://www.madore.org/~david/misc/calendar.html because I can't have a discussion without pointint out that David Madore already wrote a long writeup about it < 1602245040 789056 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann_: no, I don't think I recall that one, thanks for the link < 1602245093 431496 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wasn't there something from David Madore about the hebrew calendar too? < 1602245119 349315 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/misc/calendar.html <-- this? < 1602245134 967522 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that page doesn't really cover Hebrew < 1602245264 48168 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, it doesn't look like he wrote anything comprehensive about it, he only mentions it in passing a few times, calling it the Jewish Calendar < 1602245387 336647 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hebrewcalendar.tripod.com <-- feel free to save this then < 1602245480 216039 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice, thanks < 1602245646 329394 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in exchange David wrote about the underlying astronomical problems in detail in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-04-15.2030.rotation-terre.html besides http://www.madore.org/~david/misc/time.html and http://www.madore.org/~david/misc/calendar.html < 1602245870 625102 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice < 1602245969 10811 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://individual.utoronto.ca/kalendis/ <-- if you haven't read this definitely worth saving as well < 1602246037 101058 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, doesn't ring a bell either < 1602246760 874566 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to look at all those links later, but now I have some work to do < 1602246804 953921 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're welcome < 1602246929 712296 :user24_!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a JOIN :#esoteric < 1602246931 411306 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1602246950 607898 :user24_!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602246976 549216 :user24_!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a JOIN :#esoteric < 1602247339 691818 :user24_!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b131:942c:acc3:ec5a QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1602247357 541013 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602247466 221908 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602247632 546838 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1602247647 852084 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1602248204 29533 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-104.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602248852 394561 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.68.224 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602250872 825437 :wib_jonas57!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602250899 869799 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1602250958 750525 :wib_jonas57!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 NICK :wib_jonas < 1602251520 290319 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1602251842 427360 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1602252335 386625 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77896&oldid=77887 5* 03Orby 5* (+373) 10Clarifying and updating some simple translations > 1602252383 508725 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77897&oldid=76668 5* 03Orby 5* (+73) 10/* Assorted */ < 1602253142 401534 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602254345 479778 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1602254892 401358 :orby!450a3ff6@69.10.63.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602254896 121736 :orby!450a3ff6@69.10.63.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greetings all > 1602255062 600850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77898&oldid=77896 5* 03Orby 5* (+170) 10/* Commands */ < 1602255106 881369 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602255776 99687 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.68.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi orby < 1602255820 420380 :orby!450a3ff6@69.10.63.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello :) < 1602255951 462631 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, i was recently pondering slightly on the formula fo Gregorian leap years < 1602256022 514443 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: some of those links that we mentioned above has the formula. or do you want a software implementation? there are open source implementations I can point to. < 1602256076 224355 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i was just thinking about checking whether a year is a leap year < 1602256095 512510 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a complicated check, but was slightly interesting, from a logical point of view < 1602256182 564604 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then that formula has only really been experimentally tested for not much more than five hundred cases, so with all the fickle political decisions (as exemplified by the timezone database) at best it's a current plan and best prediction < 1602256249 727414 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a period of 400 years, and has been tested for less than 500 years, so it's hard to take it all that seriously < 1602256293 685706 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it's much more stable then the fucking holidays and timezones < 1602256311 60155 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : GregorianLeapYear(y) ⇔ 4 ∣ y ∧ ¬ (100 ∣ y ∧ 400 ∤ y) < 1602256367 716565 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⇔ 4 ∣ y ∧ (100 ∤ y ∨ 400 ∣ y) < 1602256401 277255 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⇔ (4 ∣ y ∧ 100 ∤ y) ∨ 400 ∣ y < 1602256428 213686 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⇔ ¬ (4 ∤ y ∨ 100 ∣ y) ∨ 400 ∣ y < 1602256508 926285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602256538 407484 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⇔ (4 ∣ y → 100 ∣ y) → 400 ∣ y < 1602256605 496502 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we express ⌜A ∧ ¬ B⌝ ("⌜A⌝, but not ⌜B⌝","⌜A⌝, except if ⌜B⌝") as ⌜A ⤚ B⌝, then we can also say < 1602256622 264806 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⇔ 4 ∣ y ⤚ (100 ∣ y ⤚ 400 ∣ y) < 1602256629 776985 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so, it's an exception with an exception) < 1602256944 573409 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602257241 658405 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm, there's also something funny going on, with the entailments between the three individual divisibility conditions, here) < 1602257311 770887 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1602258372 211033 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1602259136 900280 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1602259323 6864 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.68.224 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 > 1602259421 788536 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77899&oldid=77898 5* 03Orby 5* (-1033) 10Fixing mistakes < 1602260820 33219 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: you could also uncurry that < 1602260852 491470 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, wait < 1602262112 847149 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602262510 284300 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncurry what ? < 1602263119 611666 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1602263222 560108 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602263279 41163 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1602263574 379453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mustard watch < 1602263578 562061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mapole < 1602263578 894041 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mustard watch is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism. < 1602263579 925990 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg. < 1602263883 785099 :evade!~evade@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e JOIN :#esoteric < 1602264173 537819 :evade!~evade@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e QUIT :Client Quit < 1602264337 418947 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? thwackamacallit < 1602264338 854831 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. < 1602264361 157944 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? whatchamacallit < 1602264364 829761 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful. < 1602265263 441201 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” > 1602265815 384610 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77900&oldid=77899 5* 03Orby 5* (+333) 10 < 1602266197 789971 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602266339 443924 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602269277 178047 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602269721 533213 :orby!450a3ff6@69.10.63.246 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602269893 492554 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1602270363 25523 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1602272568 131299 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1602274988 40235 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1602276604 775827 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like solar hijri calendar? < 1602276831 497931 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602277778 492884 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602277788 164136 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602278598 80841 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1602278643 847133 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602280229 895349 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: A simple C code is (!((y%100?:y/100)&3)) or (!((y%100?y:y/100)&3)) to calculate if it is a leap year. < 1602280313 768768 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea (calculating it wasn't the issue) < 1602280913 521587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although maybe it is related to the logic < 1602282496 287556 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1602283005 26701 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :` ? : ' is equivalent to ` ? : ' (modulo side-effects in `') ? < 1602283006 188955 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​? No such file or directory < 1602283108 315387 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is how it works in GNU C (some features of GNU C are also implemented in clang, I think) < 1602284973 241144 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. i recall seeing it somewhere, but didn't look into the exact semantics < 1602284984 33595 :ski!~ski@m-1163-19.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's like `or' in Scheme, then < 1602285030 590138 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602285091 104022 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the Perl ||. < 1602286638 79458 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and || in JavaScript also acts like that < 1602286903 315283 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1602287049 443734 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602287229 875597 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 PART :#esoteric < 1602287267 111072 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602287304 807091 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1602287614 524245 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :flower_corpse: hello < 1602287638 498280 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like your name < 1602287753 659189 :flower_corpse!~flower_co@185.195.232.251 PART #esoteric :"WeeChat 2.7.1" < 1602287858 423762 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602287929 932495 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :flower_corpse: I admire yours