00:29:52 [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77350&oldid=77338 * JonoCode9374 * (-21) 01:09:32 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:47:31 -!- FraterEST has joined. 01:47:37 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:26:01 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:42:01 -!- FraterEST has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:21:22 spruit11: so... glucose is the only improvement, everything else made matters worse ;) 04:25:54 -!- shikhin has joined. 04:43:41 [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77351&oldid=77317 * TwilightSparkle * (+192) 04:58:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:00:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:26:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:17:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:18:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:45:04 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 07:52:22 -!- tromp has joined. 07:52:23 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:52:55 -!- tromp has joined. 07:55:27 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:57:45 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:09:50 -!- hendursa1 has joined. 08:12:03 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:18:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:21:11 isn’t the weather nice 08:27:20 I’m disposing of my old C++, HTML, CSS, JS, Delphi and something books putting them away to do something later. Shame they almost surely aren’t interesting to anyone for some time, as there are internet resources aplenty 08:28:12 and C++ ones weren’t even about any of the modern language standards 08:28:47 even at their printing dates :( 08:33:00 maybe their authors thought the differences are minor and mainly surface-level, or maybe those were the times so even they weren’t knowledgeable enough. There wasn’t much choice in bookstores on really interesting topics, and I was wise to cease going there to search something programming-related long ago. But not too long ago to have no dead weight on the shelf 08:46:41 [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77352&oldid=77344 * Keymaker * (+205) Reply. 08:48:27 [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77353&oldid=77352 * Keymaker * (+238) Another reply. 08:52:24 arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices 08:52:57 you can't really do anything with them unless you need a doorstopper 08:53:22 hah 08:54:05 kindling for a fire 08:54:49 b_jonas: BTW have it ended well for that monitor with sticky buttons? 08:54:49 Hmm. Fahrenheit 451 08:55:47 arseniiv: probably yes. on thursday and friday it seemed to be working fine. it will need a few more days of testing, but right now I'm a bit ill so I'm working from home, so I can't tell for sure yet 08:56:12 kindling for a fire => they really picked an interesting word to name their ebook readers, yeah 08:56:49 b_jonas: oh 08:57:05 I would like to work in the office, and would be if this was last year 08:57:42 but right now both my boss and my supervisor told me very clearly that we are not to work in while we are ill 08:57:51 so either I can work from home, or not at all 08:58:00 maybe that’s for the best if it’s quiet at home 08:58:55 this is not a too tenable position, if I always have to work from home when I'm a bit ill, then I miss too much in the office, but there's not much I can do now 08:59:10 yes, I have no kids 08:59:57 they say a cold is not as severe if one’s moving not too much and can be in comfort temperature-wise 09:00:14 anyway, I'll be afk for a bit, I actually have to run into the office now because I left the mouse in there. I knew I had to bring the mouse, but somehow messed it up when I packed the notebook. probably concentrated on making sure that I bring the HDMI cable. 09:00:27 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 09:00:49 though for something flu-like that would be more of a necessity, to avoid complications like bacteria etc 09:01:09 arseniiv: Well, Google used "Nexus" for their android device brand, which is a very interesting literary reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F 09:01:21 also I'm going to buy a new non-work computer for home, I'll tell about it later 09:01:45 I'm both excited and a bit terrified because now I know approximately how much it will cost, even though the order isn't finalized yet 09:02:26 b_jonas: wish you luck for all of that combined! 09:03:15 thx 09:03:47 int-e: oh, I didn’t remember they were called Nexus there 09:08:25 s/remember/know/; I even didn’t watch the movie adaptation but heard of all that 09:10:02 I only discovered this a few years ago when reading the novel. 09:42:29 there exists a universal turing machine 09:43:04 -!- cpressey has joined. 09:43:05 nice! 09:44:01 assume we can decide halting with a turing machine, then define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T)) { loop(); } else { return; } 09:44:18 (I couldn’t contain myself; this wasn’t intended to look snarky so if it ended up being such, sorry) 09:44:21 arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices <--- I remember when I was first learning C from a textbook my dad used at uni 09:44:24 How do we get a contradiction again? Halts(Lie(Lie(Lie(...))) ?? 09:44:37 maybe I need to define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T(T))) { loop(); } else { return; } 09:44:48 It gave a Hello World relying on very architecture-specific undefined behaviour 09:45:18 then we can case on Halts(Lie(Lie)): if it does it doesn't if it doesn't it does 09:45:45 but we can recursively enumerate the turing machines that do halt 09:46:42 Now suppose there is a turing machine that determines if a turing machine that takes an input halts on all of its inputs 09:47:09 AlwaysHalts(TM) = TM(0) halts and TM(1) halts and etc.. 09:47:26 How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? 09:48:02 certainly AlwaysHalts lets us implement halts, just make a turing machine that drops its input and executes a TM that takes no input 09:49:09 We can enumerate all halting TMs, so we can use the universal TM with that to construct a turing machine with input n that executes the n'th turing machine that halts I think? And AlwaysHalts is true of this 09:50:06 hm it really does seem to be stronger, as there are infinitely many inputs and we can’t prove a TM halts for all of them in finite time… 09:50:06 it makes sense that Halts wouldn't be able to answer this question, since if you wanted to tweak it to have no input you could maybe have it execute every halting TM in sequence 09:50:12 but that wouldn't halt even though every single TM would halt 09:50:16 but this isn't a proof 09:50:35 yeah 09:50:44 Can we do another simple Liar type construction? 09:51:07 How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? <-- show that AlwaysHalts is only recursively enumerable *even if* you have an oracle that answers Halts for you 09:51:39 I like that 09:52:07 Something like Liar but that calls the oracle might work 09:52:37 so one needs to show that its complement is not enumerable hm 09:53:59 the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) 09:55:26 I feel like we could enumerate these: we would loop over n and make sure the n'th turing machine doesn't halt. So this language is the union of NthLoops(0) u NthLoops(1) u ... 09:55:45 fungot: do you know any compliments? 09:55:45 int-e: in drscheme random works for me... i am not very good 09:55:48 the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) => yep 09:57:16 fungot: don’t be so shy 09:57:17 arseniiv: okay, now what would happen 09:59:41 rain1: but again we wouldn’t get the negative answer is finite time? 09:59:57 in* 10:00:46 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 10:08:32 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77354&oldid=77328 * DGCK81LNN * (+271) 10:08:59 [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77355&oldid=75742 * DGCK81LNN * (+280) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ Added another version I created 10:18:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:18:40 [[User:DGCK81LNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+658) Created page with "Hi, my username is quite confusing and you can call me Roy. I'm from China and I'm kinda addicted in in [[Befunge]] these days. __NOTOC__ ==== A [[Befunge]] program that creat..." 10:19:32 [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77357&oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+0) 10:28:14 [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77358&oldid=77357 * DGCK81LNN * (+594) 10:47:08 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:47:16 -!- hakatashi2 has joined. 11:05:28 [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77359&oldid=77351 * SunnyMoon * (+161) Answer alert! 11:33:46 hmm 11:33:49 i don't really get this 11:34:01 i willl try some scribbling later 11:58:03 [[Truth machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77360 * SunnyMoon * (+27) Redirection. 11:59:27 [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77361&oldid=77353 * SunnyMoon * (+118) Done! 12:01:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:02:28 -!- hendursa1 has quit (Quit: hendursa1). 13:02:49 -!- hendursaga has joined. 13:27:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:36:12 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Supyovalk * New user account 14:42:50 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77362&oldid=77354 * Supyovalk * (+153) /* Introductions */ 14:43:28 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77363&oldid=77362 * Supyovalk * (+90) 14:44:22 [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77364&oldid=74696 * Supyovalk * (+218) /* Examples in programming languages */ 14:45:49 [[T]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77365 * Lebster * (+110) Created page with "T is a work-in-progress esolang being created by [[user:Lebster]]. The project started in early september 2020" 14:46:30 [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=75987 * Lebster * (+110) /* Created Languages */ 14:46:32 [[Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77367&oldid=77364 * Supyovalk * (-35) /* Phyton 3.0 - removed useless print lines*/ 15:15:22 -!- imode has joined. 15:45:08 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:59:10 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:20:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:26:07 [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77368&oldid=77355 * DGCK81LNN * (-1) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ 16:57:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 16:59:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:00:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 17:31:43 -!- tromp_ has joined. 17:35:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:49:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:19:34 any updates on turing machines? 18:22:21 rain1: IDK, I’m dumb today 18:24:12 I woke up earlier to receive a midi keyboard I ordered and it arrived only just a twenty minutes ago :D 18:24:30 logistic difficultes 18:24:42 oh fun! 18:24:51 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baguette * New user account 18:25:21 I think I’ll read a bit of webfiction, go sleeping and only tomorrow unpack this thing and check if everything’s alright 18:25:32 > A machine with an oracle for the halting problem can determine whether particular Turing machines will halt on particular inputs, but they cannot determine, in general, whether machines equivalent to themselves will halt 18:25:35 :1:129: error: :1:129: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 18:25:36 this is understable 18:25:44 have a good night! 18:27:06 rain1: yeah, I have a fluttering mood a couple of days now, I hope I’ll restart making some music, maybe I’ll be able to explore microtonality (though the 12edo keyboard is not as optimal, it’s still way better than nothing!) 18:27:53 thanks, have a good night also when you’ll go to sleep! 18:28:19 hopefully there would be absolutely no defects 18:28:41 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77369&oldid=77363 * Baguette * (+392) /* Introductions */ 18:28:47 I’m a bit anxious when it comes to buying things of this scale 18:29:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77370&oldid=77369 * Baguette * (+1) /* Introductions */ 18:51:22 https://twitter.com/apu_yokai/status/1303308968521940994 18:51:28 you can make nand gates out of physical linkages 18:52:52 oh neat 18:54:03 that reminds me, i got an ad for this toy the other day https://www.turingtumble.com/ 18:55:37 kmc: I remember when they were doing the Kickstarter for that, I believe someone came up with a simulator not long after 18:56:42 you can make nand gates out of physical linkages => wow, and relatively simple! 18:57:04 cool 18:57:12 omg thats so awesom 19:04:04 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:07:43 -!- user24 has joined. 19:08:42 reminds a bit of Turing trains or what were they called 19:31:02 [[SCREAMCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+2137) Create the SCREAMCODE page 19:32:42 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77372&oldid=76864 * Baguette * (+75) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ 19:37:09 [[User:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77373 * Baguette * (+84) Created page with "I'm an 18-year-old Computer Science student, and the loser that made [[SCREAMCODE]]." 19:40:10 we can talk about recognition and acceptance of languages 19:44:18 [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77374&oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+155) 19:59:20 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77375&oldid=77374 * Baguette * (+34) Specify tape size 20:00:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:01:27 that linkage thing is hella neat. 20:01:52 http://www.cr31.co.uk/stagecast/trains/tt0_intro.html <-- the turing trains thing. 20:02:52 arseniiv: Openttd, and I was just thinking of it because I think there's some unexplored eso-potential for building the same logic circuits in a less efficient way 20:06:03 [[User talk:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77376 * Baguette * (+50) Created page with "If you want, you can email me at baguette@SDF.ORG." 20:12:12 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77377&oldid=77315 * Baguette * (+17) /* S */ 20:12:46 [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77378&oldid=77375 * Baguette * (+28) 20:17:57 I did some crude OpenTTD logic gates back some 15 years ago, and probably talked about them here. 20:19:59 fizzie: is that before or after path-based signals? 20:21:12 Right on the dot, more or less. NPF ("New Pathfinding") was in the trunk, but not in any release. It did rely on that. 20:21:20 http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic if you're interested. 20:21:55 Actually, maybe it predates path signals and just relies on pre-signals. 20:22:27 oh, pre-signals are much older, they come from ttdpatch 20:22:40 and most logic relies on pre-signals or path-based signals 20:22:50 most of it relies on at least some pre-signals 20:23:07 even if you use path signals, pre-signals are needed for some parts of the logic 20:23:51 but I admit there's still a lot that I don't understand about openttd logic 20:24:13 "The path signals follow a different concept and were first introduced with OpenTTD version 0.7." Okay, it's before that, because the writeup mentions 0.4.0.1 as the most recent release. 20:24:22 mostly because all the tutorials and coop savegames have horribly large complicated examples, not small minimal constructions to demonstrate one thing and only tha 20:26:09 "The image is rather big: a 1450x708px PNG" ah yes, that is old. 20:27:02 I don't know if it really counted as that big any more, TBH. 20:28:34 so far the openttd games that I play don't incorporate any specific logic, that is, there are signals to make trains run smoothly, but no specific tracks and signals and trains just for logic, not even the simple priority crossing 20:28:42 but this might chnage 20:29:18 if I manage to understand how logic works, I'll probably add eso-logic that makes the trains less efficient in effect, but more fun to watch 20:38:55 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:15 -!- adu has joined. 21:15:45 -!- oshaboy has joined. 21:17:48 [[Godelfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77379 * Salpynx * (+24) redirect from ascii 21:17:52 There is an entire channel for esolangs? 21:18:06 I have actually been working on an esolang as a dare 21:18:15 A RISC assembly with only 8 bit instructions 21:18:23 not 8 bit opcodes like the 6502 21:18:29 8 bit instructions 21:18:29 it gets weirder from here. 21:18:53 I know you can modify brainfuck to RISC and get 4 bit instructions 21:19:00 It's actually not really an esolang 21:19:16 I put quite a bit of effort to cram the most useful stuff into 256 instructions 21:19:43 Maybe I should try making one with a 6 bit instruction width 21:19:50 So all programs will be in base 64 21:20:58 `welcome oshaboy 21:21:01 oshaboy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 21:21:16 yes, there's an entire channel. but it doesn't always stay on topic. 21:21:52 https://docs.google.com/document/d/13043UrFZGNRNyHOM0GJprrVCFdFIiRqx05xet2FEQSM/edit?usp=sharing 21:21:56 Here are the details 21:22:04 I just made some room for 7 more instructions 21:22:11 What do you think I should add? 21:25:08 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 21:48:54 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77380&oldid=77378 * Baguette * (+20) 21:53:35 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77381&oldid=77380 * Baguette * (+28) 21:57:33 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77382&oldid=77381 * Baguette * (-15) 21:59:10 -!- adu has joined. 21:59:14 oshaboy: that seems like it only has a very inefficient way to load an immediate to a register. you need like six instructions for it, unless I'm missing something. 22:00:25 oshaboy: also I don't understand how you have a "SUB AX,BY" macro that expands to "SUB X,Y" when there doesn't seem to be an instruction or macro "SUB X,Y" 22:03:08 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 22:07:15 oshaboy: have you considered restricting some of those instructions in favor of being able to load an immediate byte more efficiently, since that's useful and you only have indirect jumps; or cheating by adding an instruction that loads from the immediate byte after the instruction and skips that byte; or at least cheating with PC-relative addresses like in PDP-8? 22:08:58 b_jonas: Talked with them about it earlier 22:09:10 oshaboy: also I don't understand how jumps farther than 128 bytes work, since all the branch instructions seem to have only short offsets 22:09:11 they're strongly opposed to immediates of any form for some reason. 22:09:45 and since the code doesn't seem very compact, you will need a lot of far jumps 22:09:58 are you supposed to set up a jump ladder like once every 120 bytes? 22:10:15 also have you written any example programs and interpreter? 22:10:17 i,i SUB AX,BY = AB SUB X,Y 22:10:39 iirc they've done neither? 22:10:56 having all of LDIFF, SUBF, and FLIPF seems rather redundant 22:20:02 moony: I guess I just don't know what counts as a "RISC" here. if I really wanted to build something low-level with 8-bit opcodes, I'd make it full cisc. 22:20:30 and I'm not sure how much you need to be able to call it "RISC", so I can't give good advice. 22:21:40 b_jonas: Yes, loading immidiates is quite inefficient, but I doubt there is a better way 22:22:01 b_jonas: the psuedo ops are based on an older instruction set, I didn't update them 22:23:27 b_jonas: There is LONGJUMP 22:23:54 which is absolute 22:24:16 ok 22:25:17 Well if I have a loader of the next byte it isn't really an 8 bit instruction, is it 22:26:03 that's why I said "cheat" 22:26:07 Also how often do you need an immediate that requires more than 3 bits set? 22:26:11 *immideate 22:26:18 oshaboy: often, if that's how you can short jump[ 22:26:49 I can't spell 22:27:05 Good point 22:27:29 but you can also store an immiditi you use often in memory 22:27:44 oshaboy: how do you load it though? you have to load the address first 22:28:28 Maybe I will add an unconditional skip so you can sneak bytes into the code 22:31:30 So if you do xor x,x; set; putf x,1; memory a,x; skip; byte 0xaa; 22:32:26 I don't know, I think it is easier to just do xor a,a; set; putf a,1; putf a,3; putf a,5; putf a,7 22:32:39 oshaboy: that's hardly an improvement, you can already load anything with just five or six instructions I think 22:32:56 I mean any byte 22:33:27 I think bit sets are enough 22:33:40 ldi is a bit cheating 22:33:58 requires 2 clock cycles on a theoretical processor 22:34:54 Usually on RISC the only commands that require more than 1 cycle are memory and branch instructions 22:35:01 also this is kind of an esolang anyway 22:35:12 so weird implementation is kind of a given 22:35:44 -!- oshaboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:41:05 look at y'all talking about processor cycles and stuff that takes nanoseconds. I'm jelly. 22:46:07 -!- adu has joined. 22:47:53 b_jonas: looking at their instruction set, they have a fatal flaw with the whole "RISC" thing anyways: 22:48:12 it's more complex to implement than a proper RISC 22:49:05 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:53:26 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 22:56:33 Is there a version of the "Fixed" fonts with DEC encodings and other encodings? 22:58:25 (With what I have, some characters will not work.) 22:58:27 zzo38: monospace font? 22:59:24 Yes, and specifically bitmap font too 23:00:09 zzo38: which encodings? DEC has multiple 23:00:54 All of them. 23:01:32 i mean, unicode fonts should support most things...? 23:02:02 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 23:02:39 fun, Unicode is missing some from DEC Technical 23:02:40 Well, they don't. For one thing, the DEC Technical character set is not supported. 23:03:08 the problem characters are 31 through 37, rest have unicode equivs 23:03:52 those in particular 23:04:03 you could solve by making your own font data in the private use area 23:04:16 and having some translation method 23:04:28 Yes, although I do not want a Unicode encoded font, but rather a font encoded using the DEC encoding 23:05:06 I don't know if anything even would support such a font 23:05:12 what's the usecase? 23:05:16 and on what software? 23:05:28 (Conversion between Unicode and other encodings is not always lossless anyways) 23:05:35 Well, to make a better terminal emulator. 23:05:57 I think you might need to develop the font yourself 23:06:25 best way to do that would be to render unicode characters and make good use of the private use area, imo 23:06:34 (and the character properties between Unicode and other character sets do not always match, either) 23:07:35 PUA can have whatever properties you want 23:08:54 How can you tell programs to use them though? As far as I know, I have not seen any such thing. 23:09:15 zzo38: Your terminal emulator is presumably the only thing that'd use it, internally, to make font handling easier 23:09:49 would let you use an existing font renderer 23:11:38 X has font rendering 23:12:25 X font rendering probably shouldn't be used. It's effectively deprecated, like the rest of X that's not just frame buffers 23:12:54 Don't people still use Xft? 23:12:56 I don't know. 23:13:12 Pretty much everything uses freetype and other renderers directly in a framebuffer 23:13:43 Well, I prefer to use bitmap fonts instead, and I think the X font rendering is suitable 23:14:16 if you want bitmap, implement it yourself, it's very simple for monospace. Xft is on it's last legs. 23:14:32 even then freetype supports bitmap 23:14:39 I don't mean Xft; I mean the X core font rendering 23:15:36 X core font rendering is extremely legacy 23:16:52 That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. 23:17:24 if something is included with distributions solely for compatibility reasons, you probably shouldn't use it 23:17:36 you'd be writing modern legacy software 23:19:06 it's been legacy since 2000 23:19:21 and probably a bit earlier than that 23:20:01 it's better for future compatibility to not depend on old X11 features 23:20:52 Currently, Wayland is starting to make it's way into being the default windowing environment for some distributions 23:21:11 Wayland just seems worse than X. 23:21:30 I sure hope people don't settle on it. 23:22:32 I still use X and do not want to use Wayland. Would there be a way to display Wayland programs inside of a X window though (each one in its own window)? 23:22:51 Programs will likely support both for a long time 23:23:10 most people use wrappers for handling window initialization/framebuffers so their stuff works on all platforms 23:24:15 I wrote Xlib code and it was a little clunky but overall it worked OK. 23:24:27 Then I tried to port my thing to Wayland and it was so unpleasant I just gave up. 23:24:53 as I use rust, I'm usually using Winit or a similar wrapper that handles the details for me. For C/C++ there's SDL2 23:26:22 SDL is OK until it doesn't do something you want. 23:26:44 But if a platform API is good, it should be usable directly. 23:26:55 Wayland's excuse "everyone just uses GTK anyway" is ridiculous. 23:27:09 (The excuse for only doing client-side decorations.) 23:27:39 I sometimes use SDL1, for some things. 23:28:07 I don't like GTK much though; I like some of the features of Xaw, which newer libraries don't do 23:28:37 shachaf: xdg-decoration was added for this. Either way I do agree Wayland isn't ideal 23:28:40 And it does not seem to be able to configure GTK to work like Xaw 23:28:45 but it's also best to not depend on old X11 features 23:28:59 Which old X11 features? 23:29:08 X core font in zzo38's case 23:29:25 Oh. Maybe? 23:30:35 zzo38: per Xorg's info on fonts: `While X.Org continues to maintain the core fonts system, client software authors are encouraged to switch to Xft as soon as possible.` 23:30:52 so it's either xft, or using freetype/etc like most of the ecosystem 23:31:40 moony: Yes, I know that, and I don't want to use that. I specifically want to use non-Unicode bitmap fonts. 23:32:23 Too bad text rendering is incredibly complicated. 23:32:30 you can use bitmap fonts though. And refusing to use Unicode will get you into a host of issues, tbh 23:32:48 this is the kind of situation private use areas were allocated for 23:33:06 if you need to be able to redefine font data though, which I believe some terminals can do 23:33:13 you'd be better off drawing the font yourself 23:33:48 Yes, and a different set of issues than refusing to use stuff other than Unicode. It depends on the application. Unicode is helpful for displaying web pages, for one thing. For many things it just gets in the way though. 23:34:55 (PUA only partially helps. It causes its own set of problems.) 23:35:31 (And, of course, for some thing is very good idea to avoid homoglyph attacks.) 23:37:07 if my goal was high compat with DEC terminals, i'd implement the font rendering myself, and store character data as u16s with a UTF-8 mapping available to convert it as needed 23:37:47 (which, on that note, a high compat terminal is in my interest, working on VAX emulation and all) 23:40:33 One problem with using Unicode for terminal emulation is the need for character property tables. (I designed my own encoding for terminal emulation (and not for anything else; it is for one use only) that gets rid of the need for character property tables.) 23:40:37 What terminals does VAX use? 23:40:45 various VTs 23:41:26 for system consoles, it's a custom terminal, iirc VAX-11/780's is a PDP-11/terminal hybrid that handles the whole bootstrap process alongside being a way to interface with the machine 23:42:26 I did think is VT, being DEC VAX, but that doesn't tell me which one. Also, is there a document for the terminal codes for the system consoles? 23:43:07 System consoles have an entirely custom, machine dependent bus. It's not worth the time trying to emulate them separately from the VAX itself 23:43:19 as for the VTs used: all of them. It's a super-mini, you can hook whatever to it 23:44:13 fungot, where did you hide the body? 23:44:13 b_jonas: anything else i could do it in bf: fnord/ fnord/ fr-wiki-data and i just asked 23:44:30 * moony grabs 780 maint handbook real quick 23:45:04 Yes, I expected as much, but which were common (or were all DEC terminals common)? Even if it is not worth trying to emulate the system consoles separately from the VAX itself, still would be helpful to know what the codes are, both to write software for VAX and just being curious to compare them. 23:45:06 ^style 23:45:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 23:45:18 ^style ukparl 23:45:18 Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) 23:45:39 codes are the same as a normal VT system. VT220, VT340, etc, were all common. Just look at the most common VTs and you'll know the most common for use with VAX :P 23:47:09 O, so they are the same codes, even if it is a custom terminal. 23:47:09 VAX-11/780's system console is connected by a 30 pin cable to a card in the cabinet, for example. No point in emulating that 23:47:12 yes 23:48:14 Yes, there probably is no point emulating VAX system console except for emulating VAX itself. 23:48:50 especially as the 780 system console basically has direct access to the ucode pathways, so it'd be abstracted away in any sane emulator 23:52:25 I've looked into implementing a ucode level 780 emulator and it looks like quite a large task, and it'd have terrible performance 23:52:27 for little gain 23:52:34 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).