< 1598486931 3803 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598486959 853299 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598491448 523561 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598491706 701462 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1598492560 268213 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598494792 985707 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598498405 210558 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598499281 165558 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598499729 42066 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598501685 934795 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1598501796 463348 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you canonicalize code? < 1598502136 263135 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To canonicalize what code? < 1598502706 926983 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598502738 525623 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598502763 899054 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598502765 677975 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598503193 235325 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598503218 739927 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: all code < 1598503305 100403 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1598503305 342990 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598503856 953245 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1598504138 119178 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your favourite solution to the halting problem? < 1598505741 581869 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :twoducks < 1598506782 605025 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be possible to write a lambda calculus canonicaliser in that < 1598506993 194267 :Palaver!~Palaver@adsl-99-93-137-225.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598507017 962158 :Palaver!~Palaver@adsl-99-93-137-225.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net NICK :mookil < 1598508464 627086 :mookil!~Palaver@adsl-99-93-137-225.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598510084 553505 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598511522 20999 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598512222 13041 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1598512357 387725 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598512762 444165 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598513211 981645 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1598514803 999513 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598514816 382314 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1598515741 611730 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1598515943 834134 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598515954 24262 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.quantamagazine.org/can-computers-solve-the-collatz-conjecture-20200826/ < 1598516229 657088 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1598516341 225608 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how you would put something recursive into something which checks finite statespaces? < 1598516426 863236 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why these are impossibility results < 1598516439 362217 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only need to show its impossible for some finite n then you're done forever < 1598516458 617546 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess they are trying to find a loop in collatz ??? < 1598516623 756057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you solve the Collatz conjecture with a halting oracle? < 1598516629 900423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program would you give it? < 1598516672 308381 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i only invoke the oracle once? < 1598516789 269109 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose there is a generic construction that makes invoking a halting oracle once equivalent to invoking it arbitrarily many times < 1598516823 166124 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a program that finds the Collatz sequence for every natural number. Give it that? < 1598516852 333358 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite, I guess. < 1598516861 602016 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that takes n as input. i was thinking of we could loop over every n -- but i need to invoke the oracle many times < 1598516861 845267 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning < 1598516865 50815 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning! < 1598516873 573271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't invoke the oracle nestedly. < 1598516907 471396 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, give the oracle the single program that runs the Collatz sequence repeatedely, for every n < 1598516917 761266 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course that doesn't halt even if Collatz halts for all of them < 1598517003 37836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was replying to the rain. < 1598517012 462889 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So was I < 1598517025 218989 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no. < 1598517136 308609 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, there's two failure cases for collatz conjecture: either there's a loop, or an unbounded increase < 1598517151 444924 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can find the first failure case with an oracle, but I don't think you can find the second < 1598517195 684025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the second case is the harder one. < 1598517206 873468 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so interesting < 1598517235 86227 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehm, wouldn't a halting oracle just tell us that it halted or not? > 1598517307 740687 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Abyxlrz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76934&oldid=76924 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (-17) 10 < 1598517336 110232 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Taneb has some other kind of oracle in mind, otherwise I am completely confused about why there would be a distinction there. < 1598517336 469175 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can't i run infinitely many programs all at once and ask if that halts? < 1598517369 747864 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the program I want to put into the oracle is "Try each number until we find one that cycles, then halt" < 1598517590 86884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that. < 1598517596 10516 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598517597 245770 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK > 1598517655 437209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76935&oldid=76931 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+90) 10 < 1598517709 424958 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : i suppose there is a generic construction that makes invoking a halting oracle once equivalent to invoking it arbitrarily many times <-- I think there actually isn't, and that this is why there's a hierarchy of uncomputable problems, actually < 1598517767 257845 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1598517917 275323 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the uniform halting problem (does this TM halt on every input) is higher up than the halting problem (does this inputless TM halt). Collatz is like the uniform halting problem. < 1598517936 429214 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is my fuzzy morning take anyway < 1598519289 934102 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598519337 430049 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in < 1598519354 850946 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598520263 296959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-232.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1598521134 991676 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598521527 910236 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did i never hear about this before! < 1598521530 389675 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is cool < 1598521791 528102 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1598521859 994810 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1598521960 824337 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really hope these guys solve collatz < 1598521976 252717 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so cool that they have an appraoch they are working on < 1598522129 480289 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://imgur.com/a/9Rgv3lU i had never seen this string rewrite version of collatz before < 1598522923 633666 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric > 1598523581 475275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MINIPRIME 5* 10New user account < 1598526658 868705 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598526884 138642 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in windows, it's very annoying how when certain drivers are loaded, sound that I'm listening to on my headphones can be temporarily redirected to the laptop speakers for a few seconds. this happens when I start a virtual machine with Virtualbox (even though I disabled audio for that machine), and even when starting the VPN software (which is < 1598526884 669622 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly annoying and badly written in other ways, adds two fictitious IP addresses as DNS resolvers slowing down all DNS queries, and thinks it's supposed to be an antivirus, not only a VPN tunnel. < 1598526933 918897 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I could understand if the sound was temporarily muted for a few seconds when an audio driver is installed, but no, it has to go to the loudspeaker for all the room to hear. < 1598526953 767816 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598527003 383757 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should use a hardware workaround for this, as in plug in a dummy headphone plug into the laptop headphone socket to make it mute the built-in speaker. < 1598527038 511316 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would just lead to too much debugging when I do want to use the laptop speaker < 1598529313 534072 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: doesn’t disabling the speakers work? Or you don’t want to disable them in case they are needed other time? < 1598529365 107480 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, they aren’t their own device, I get it now < 1598529410 844015 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe they can be muted in the settings of their corresponding audio device < 1598529411 327915 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I do sometimes want the speakers, especially when doing an online phone call to a remote co-worker such that a third person is next to me on my side and needs to listen. and yes, it's a work laptop, not owned by me, so no I won't try to deliberately permanently harm it. < 1598529437 789597 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1598529454 661389 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1598529463 980510 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can be muted, but it seems (I haven't done enough experiments) that that doesn't work, maybe the volume setting gets carried over from the headphones when it switches over or something. < 1598529525 453803 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot to mention that the headphones are connected to the audio jack port in the docking station. < 1598529610 497467 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another audio jack port on the notebook. Both of these are technically headset ports, so they can carry a headset with headphones and microphone together. I think that is impractical on the docker, since it means you can't plug in an external microphone through analog audio port, but makes sense on the laptop chasis itself where space for < 1598529610 985361 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ports is constrained. < 1598529646 155015 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This docking stations provides very few ports in general. < 1598529702 728406 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only an HDMI port on it, no DVI, (this may be deliberate conspiracy by hardware manufacturers to sell the expensive HDMI cables or converters). < 1598529763 894930 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a third audio device, namely the monitor's built-in speaker connected through HDMI, but the speaker in this cheap monitor has such bad audio quality that I don't use it at all. < 1598529937 16348 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I wonder if the headphone sensing works such that you could actually make a mute switch from a 3.5mm plug and a switch. I imagine they're all based on electronics, not some microswitch in the hole or anything like that. < 1598530142 483132 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My work laptop (Debian, PulseAudio) has a pretty unintuitive behavior with headphones and volume. If I turn the volume down with no headphones plugged in (because I don't want the laptop speaker going "bong" every now and then), it'll retain that volume level if I plug in headphones (so I can't hear anyone on the video call). Then, if I turn up the volume temporarily for the call, and then unplug the < 1598530148 524389 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :headphones, it actually resets the volume back to the low level it used to be. But when I plug headphones back in, it remains low, and I miss the first few seconds of the next meeting trying to fiddle with the volume controls again. < 1598530231 697029 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's clearly got some sort of separate notion of volume levels for the different configurations (since it resets the volume back when unplugging the headset), but that somehow doesn't extend to remembering what I wanted the volume to be *with* the headset plugged in. < 1598530341 956964 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's odd. I do see the effect of having two separate settings with and without headphones but it manages to switch on both relevant events. < 1598530349 413754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a PC though. < 1598530372 486163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laptopts may be harder... they tend to sleep a lot. < 1598530396 431910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? topt < 1598530398 463341 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :topt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1598530498 853703 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598530552 847675 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1598530733 664585 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The output device selection also feels slightly nondeterministic. Usually it does the reasonable thing, but sometimes it ends up using the HDMI output (of the monitor with no speakers). < 1598530864 997270 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also got three display-related outputs ("HDMI1/DP1", "HDMI2/DP2" and "HDMI3/DP3"), and I have no idea what those map to. There *are* three connected monitors (the built-in panel, and two external, both connected through a single USB-C cable doing the DP Alt Mode + MST thing), but that might be purely a coincidence. < 1598530880 188372 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two of them say they're "plugged in" and one is "unplugged". < 1598530892 315336 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But none of these things are actually capable of making any noise, so. < 1598530894 297921 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it more or less has to be nondeterministic, or at least appear nondeterministic to a casual observer, since you can just plug in audio devices through USB or wifi at runtime, or have them plugged in from boot, and it doesn't seem like you could make a canonical ordering of them that's obvious to humans. < 1598530931 262141 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a canonical ordering, but I feel like it maintains some sort of preference list or a mapping between apps and devices somewhere. < 1598530940 838752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the HDMI/DP things is sensible then it should map to fixed connectors :-/ < 1598530953 689476 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't that many holes in the thing. :) < 1598530977 201066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Smiley because often things are not sensible.) < 1598530986 407038 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's also why we can't just use the simple old ways to select hard disk as boot device or mount source, /dev/sda could mean a hard disk connected anywhere, not only on the first of two physical ATA ports on your motherboard. < 1598530986 894532 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that would mean you couldn't stream audio over to the monitor connected over DP chaining ("MST"). < 1598531062 880274 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that many holes" => again, USB and bluetooth audio devices < 1598531093 81794 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB can have passive hubs, at which point the hardware can't even tell which hole on the hub you plugged a device into < 1598531106 986035 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I mean, it can't be mapping three "HDMIn/DPn" outputs to three "fixed connectors" because of that. < 1598531159 662453 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have in fact used both USB and bluetooth audio devices on a work laptop, though I think not on this work laptop, and bluetooth is often not very reliable < 1598531182 655462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, after you've selected a particular sink for a particular app, it feels like it remembers those associations (up to switching to the USB DAC when I turn that on, if I previously "preferred" that), except that sometimes it just doesn't. < 1598531488 326624 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1598531498 98724 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598531997 866191 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.69 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1598532151 774752 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sink" because the ports are not specialized, you can connect anything including the kitchen sink through USB3 < 1598532157 48317 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1598532195 976679 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, i found a duplicate site. Either a catphisher or something: https://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Main_Page < 1598532239 134642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oakley: compare the IP addresses :P < 1598532247 815828 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one sec < 1598532261 987790 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo lmao < 1598532281 892123 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are there two domains registered to the IP tho? < 1598532292 225971 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1598532306 952616 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oakley: anyone can point their domain to an IP address, they don't need permission by the IP address < 1598532313 997544 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, huh < 1598532352 936373 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and zem.fi is one of our regular's domain, so they can point a subdomain to the wiki < 1598532385 920806 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird, huh. I didn't know you could do that < 1598532429 705580 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like there's a chance that could be used for malicious purposes with odmains < 1598532558 95016 :Oakley!411b7e0a@cpe-65-27-126-10.new.res.rr.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598532648 68858 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note though that (1) the HTTP client sends the hostname to the server in a request header, and on many servers, the webserver actually looks at that and serves different pages for different domains, though this can be problematic because it can make it harder to access a webpage if the DNS server is down even if you know the IP address, < 1598532670 634362 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (2) SSL/TSL certificates are restricted by domains, so you usually can't access a HTTPS website through just any random domain name pointed to it. < 1598532725 505738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oakley left. < 1598532732 274000 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, malicious webservers do sometimes show a lookalike website on a domain and server that they control, for phishing purposes, such as a website that look like your bank's website < 1598532735 744288 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, we have a log < 1598532903 152012 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see much potential for malicious purposes in pointing different domains to the same address, though < 1598532919 200974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the main reason that control over esolangs.org was (maybe still is, I forgot what happened at last renewal time) unclear for a while? So it should be accessible by bare IP address, and that makes namevirtualhost shenanigans less attractive. < 1598532928 368559 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i could kinda pretend to have a page i really don't, but where's the use in that < 1598532939 187571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: you could serve subtly different contents :P < 1598532954 486286 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if you own the server behind the ip address, yes < 1598532973 454544 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, the main reason is pure laziness, AIUI nginx has to select *some* site to serve, and there's just one configured, so that's the one it serves no matter what the host is. < 1598532976 195526 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: All I'm saying is that there's evil beyond phishing :P < 1598533000 706866 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the way i interpreted it was that he saw potential for malicious purposes by pointing a domain to an address that doesn't belong to you < 1598533004 766353 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't see how < 1598533007 939920 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would've taken extra work to not serve the wiki for non-esolangs.org host headers, and I'm averse to work. < 1598533009 393313 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are like a dozen websites living from serving a reformatted mirror of en.Wikipedia, often with ads, yes < 1598533038 166839 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I recommend that you do serve it from other host headers too < 1598533046 499113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: They thought it was a clone hosted by a different party. < 1598533054 524496 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: well yeah, but you can't do that by just pointing a domain somewhere < 1598533072 473388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Which is why I mentioned the IP addresses :P < 1598533075 52922 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I'll probably keep it the default. But I might maybe *not* serve it at some specific domain names, including techne.zem.fi. < 1598533082 670388 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1598533089 67093 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1598533095 826609 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there are loads of auto-translated stackoverflows and i hate them < 1598533121 643505 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :auto-translated stackoverflows? I don't recall having ran into them, but I don't search for non-english websites too often < 1598533137 219211 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you even auto-translate programming content? < 1598533152 320262 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there good translator software for that? < 1598533239 80797 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, deepl i guess < 1598533246 902417 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never said they were good < 1598533293 762414 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what language(s) have you seen that? < 1598533342 338466 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :german and some asian languages < 1598533540 182100 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598533634 155952 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it makes sense. StackOverflow is popular, and large, but not too large, not as large as en.Wikipedia, you can serve it from just one hard disk < 1598533684 89354 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should check the numbers < 1598533725 184189 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598533769 404737 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't bet on it even mirroring it < 1598533783 173763 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's really no need to not just translate on the fly < 1598533822 571668 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, you can actually serve all of en.Wikipedia's text, not counting images and other media, from a single hard disk. < 1598533833 773714 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mirror I mean < 1598533858 247555 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but why, just make an iframe for it < 1598533874 186887 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those may be bad for seo < 1598533932 229249 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1598534065 325005 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It actually looks like en.Wikipedia is not that much larger than Stackoverflow now, at least if you only count posts, not media. < 1598534076 798202 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's crazy, I didn't know that < 1598534174 84937 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikidata is somewhat larger, and just the metadata content of Commons is smaller, but of course the media content of Commons is HUGE compared to any of that < 1598534334 676284 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commons has 256 terabytes of media right now, of which 225 terabytes are images, and it's growing fast. < 1598534398 430581 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the other sites mentioned are dwarfed compared to it (though of course Google's and archive.org's databanks are larger still) < 1598534444 982911 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 terabytes is still in the order that a dedicated IT geek can have at home in actively connected storage. < 1598534612 359049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, but mirroring that would not be fun < 1598534633 293815 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't be, but some geeks store that amount of some other data < 1598534914 396010 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...look if you had that much storage wouldn't you use it for prime numbers? /s < 1598534959 6718 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't need much storage for prime numbers, you need parallel computation power for them < 1598535143 275297 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...then what other data < 1598535160 900017 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder where they store that much data < 1598535189 940457 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am looking for a reasonably priced solution to store about 10 tb and that's rough enough already < 1598535196 437344 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :t20kdc: raw (but compressed) videos mostly, for people who produce videos for money < 1598535216 333547 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can also be raw photos, but those pile up a bit slower < 1598535242 227380 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 terabytes fit on a single hard disk or two these days < 1598535279 960349 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you may still want more than two disks for redundancy or speed < 1598535339 800824 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a home user who doesn't want to store the data, the redundancy for backups can be more of a limiting factor than the total data capacity < 1598535358 76194 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is good, that only started like a decade ago < 1598535392 350717 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad we no longer have to live with slow computers with tiny amounts of RAM and small disks anymore < 1598535414 898808 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: fitting on a hard disk doesn't help much if you want to access it through the internet < 1598535471 744599 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's different, yes, for that you also need an internet connection with high bandwidth upload, and ideally static IP < 1598535531 453969 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have either of those < 1598535540 416016 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, i want cloud storage < 1598535563 443389 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cloud storage is that plus part of a server < 1598535569 195687 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can work too < 1598535601 694434 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you rarely have the option to attach 10 tb to a server at a reasonable price < 1598535609 629843 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure > 1598535637 710481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76936&oldid=76935 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+87) 10 < 1598535639 290550 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have access to cheaper microsoft office licences through work? that is often the cheapest way to get remote storage. < 1598535752 598334 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :office 365 licences aren't that expensive, but those don't have that much storage < 1598535786 267196 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't? I thought they came with a lot of storage. ok. also how fast bandwidth and stable do you need this to be? can a home internet connection not work? < 1598535862 371198 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i want to kinda back up data i have online and uploading 10 tb of data in case of a needed recovery is horribly slow < 1598535900 784443 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, my current upload speed is about 100 kb/s < 1598535956 484877 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would need about 3.5 years to recover < 1598536022 342108 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need the backup to be online? are remote backups in a different builing where you physically carry the data on hard disks not enough? < 1598536048 524594 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with possibly a smaller amount of more quickly changing data backed up online in addition < 1598536082 655869 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. if you're writing a thesis, do back it up online every hour, but that's much smaller size < 1598536097 945157 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also back it up locally of course > 1598540774 541984 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76937&oldid=76936 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+9) 10 < 1598541843 262856 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598542187 352545 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1598542775 30109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76938&oldid=76937 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+1131) 10 < 1598543946 544138 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598543951 526394 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1598544238 565189 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1598544866 90454 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1598544973 559513 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598545804 623641 :trn!jhj@prone.ws QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598546270 974640 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598546515 995999 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598546545 386644 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598546551 315965 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598546625 826841 :trn!jhj@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric < 1598546630 464956 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598547252 350336 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598547483 40218 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598547539 553486 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598548802 556507 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1598549843 814593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76939&oldid=76938 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+7) 10 > 1598550181 844070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76940&oldid=76939 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+305) 10 < 1598550201 17191 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598550776 390321 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1598550978 273015 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notified a webpage maintainer about an error on their page. They replied to me that they'll fix the error "immediately". That was 23 hours ago. Any guesses for how long it will take for them to actually fix it? < 1598551743 508179 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598551905 183553 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1598552099 520693 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76941&oldid=76817 5* 03Masldobehere 5* (+37) 10added STBF code > 1598552388 365750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76942&oldid=76929 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (-31) 10 > 1598553092 715074 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76943&oldid=76940 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+2) 10 > 1598554204 577372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76944&oldid=76943 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+7) 10 < 1598554863 768994 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursaga < 1598554904 986414 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598554969 49997 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598555015 892502 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598555192 163438 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's discovery: C's arrow operators in the wild: https://github.com/tcltk/tcl/blob/master/generic/tclCompile.c#L3561 < 1598555683 579157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah you mean the --> operator, not the ordinary arrow -> operator < 1598555722 522257 :mmmattyx!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pvfghmzzbihjcgdp JOIN :#esoteric > 1598555770 829138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76945&oldid=76944 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+6) 10 < 1598555893 31513 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1598555901 324691 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, you all had me fooled for a moment. < 1598555922 995463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found a bunch without any whitespace, as in `while (i-->0)` and so on, but the real honest `i --> 0` seems pretty rare. < 1598556249 663330 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use this, as I generally write counter loops like that as for loops in C++ and C < 1598556379 430981 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do think "i --> 0" is pretty ugly in the sense that it disguises its real meaning to the reader < 1598556475 298780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: how about if it's written the same but spaced properly, as `i-- > 0` ? < 1598556494 739244 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine by me < 1598556526 592001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also almost never use the > or >= operator in C or C++, always use < and <= instead < 1598556614 677114 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i probably wouldn't write 0 < i-- < 1598556635 327360 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to put the "comparison value" to the right < 1598556636 846055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously I use the > token as punctuation for templates, but then it's not the > operator) < 1598556724 47523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a == or != comparison, I usually put the more constant value on the left, so it's `0 == x` rather than `x == 0`, and `x == y` if x is changed in the outer loop and y in the inner loop or x is the expected value and y is the observed value, though there are edge cases when it's not obvious which one should be first; < 1598556744 102305 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not a fan of yoda conditions < 1598556780 687632 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't use this rule for < and <= comparisons, and for scalar values I usually prefer < or <= over == or != comparisons when there's no difference in meaning > 1598557041 964928 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76946&oldid=76945 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+134) 10 < 1598557353 423741 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598558329 64457 :iscordian[m]!discordi1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yjwosxajnrfltylf JOIN :#esoteric < 1598558823 758294 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If C's dereference operator was postfix, it wouldn't need the -> operator. > 1598559143 657908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76947&oldid=76942 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+18) 10 < 1598559201 225375 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't know whether x*y is a multiplication or a reference to a struct value? < 1598559326 524991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.37.134.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1598559328 557370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76948&oldid=76946 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+5) 10 < 1598559355 780287 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598559657 778840 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1598559661 274569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Modulous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76949&oldid=76948 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+63) 10 < 1598559709 665201 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you put it that way < 1598559714 161480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: no, it would be written as x*.y < 1598559720 19799 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me wonder why they didn't do it like that < 1598559724 920038 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or x^.y if ^ is used as the dereference operator < 1598559753 907591 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is, then you'd need a space to write an indirect assignment like x* = y < 1598559768 376175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or parenthesis obviously (x*)=y < 1598559972 878724 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was a postfix operator it should hopefully not also be an infix operator. < 1598559977 162960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe something other than *. < 1598560014 240140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in cryptography, there is such a thing as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping , which means that you send a fingerprint to a trusted third party, and they append a timestamp and sign it with public key cryptography, then you can use that signature to prove to anyone that you knew the digest at the given time. (instead of a trusted third party, a collectively trusted distributed set of < 1598560020 545364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :users could be used, but that's not relevant to what I'm about to ask.) < 1598560052 530651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well sure, but it's hard to find new *short* operator spellings, and you want concise syntax for this in C < 1598560082 139810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could use ^ and then use something else for xor. < 1598560084 145347 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what's the reason to keep the dot < 1598560103 720502 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah nvmd < 1598560123 764293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what they could do instead is to make not only dereferencing a prefix, but also make subscripting and dotted member access and function call prefixes < 1598560156 214309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not function call, only the others -- that would result in some extra parenthesis with function calls, but not too often < 1598560158 370324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would also work, but it'd be a bigger change. < 1598560178 619865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that of course would have put Stroustrup in a tight place, because now you can't have method calls with the current syntax < 1598560318 411638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So back to cryptography, is there a sort of reversed version of trusted timestamping, where the trusted authority generates a fresh random token, append a timestamp, and sign it, and then you can use the signature to prove that the key is random and there was no way for anyone to predict anything about it before that timestamp. < 1598560430 644376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This could be made even more useful if they released such keys regularly with a small enough period, and stored them for at least a week, so you could get a token for any exact timestamp chosen in advance, and they'd also guarantee that they only generate one token for any given timestamp. < 1598560573 543336 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use such a service to perform an experiment or zero-knowledge proof that needs randomness, such as for sampling inputs because trying all inputs would be inefficient, publish the exact protocol and timestamp in advance, and you could prove to anyone, even to someone learning about this later, that you used a truly random seed, not a random seed that you chose to get the outcome you want, and < 1598560579 561375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you couldn't even retry the experiment with multiple random seeds and selectively publish the results. < 1598560611 235825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Technically you'd use a trusted timestamp with earlier timestamp and a trusted reverse timestamp with later timestamp in combination for this.) < 1598561065 774305 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.2 - http://znc.in < 1598561098 1798 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc JOIN :#esoteric < 1598561609 909016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-115.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this make sense, or should I give an example? < 1598562141 582836 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598564388 979829 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1598564841 678747 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1598566608 425186 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598566897 455866 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1598567110 724647 :mmmattyx!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pvfghmzzbihjcgdp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1598568073 5165 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598568987 7655 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e07c:1068:1328:75c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598570067 219881 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598572035 981740 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric