2020-07-01:

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00:09:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Aneurysm9 *  New user account
00:12:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74825&oldid=74694 * Aneurysm9 * (+204) 
00:13:14 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74826&oldid=73761 * Aneurysm9 * (+4) Update AoC 2019 link to permalink
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00:46:13 <esowiki> [[REsKrIb!lo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74827&oldid=38934 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Cats
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02:45:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Byskit-dev *  New user account
02:56:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74828&oldid=74825 * Byskit-dev * (+159) /* Introductions */
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04:20:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * ProjectCF *  New user account
04:26:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74829&oldid=74828 * ProjectCF * (+137) 
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05:12:46 <zzo38> I thought of that you might want to make statistics of random packs of cards, computing the statistics without generating them at random. This is probably possible with what I have so far, if VERIFY and SCRIPT are not used. But if VERIFY and/or SCRIPT are used, then it would probably be more difficult.
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05:57:00 <esowiki> [[User:Byskit-dev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74830 * Byskit-dev * (+316) Created page with "Hi I like esolangs and I come up with ideas for esolangs  Here are some things I have though of: * Functional - a collection of functional languages (i.e. [[Python]], JavaScri..."
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05:58:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74831&oldid=74829 * Byskit-dev * (+27) /* Introductions */
05:59:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74832&oldid=74831 * Byskit-dev * (-1) /* Introductions */
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07:13:29 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74833&oldid=69843 * Lebster * (+259) 
07:14:33 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74834&oldid=74833 * Lebster * (-4) /* Website */
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08:35:22 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74835&oldid=74692 * Chris Pressey * (+493) Several edits
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08:38:47 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Tandem.hs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74836&oldid=74467 * Chris Pressey * (-90) Update for labels are strings now, and simplify.
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08:48:17 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74837&oldid=74835 * Chris Pressey * (+613) /* Computational class */ Add open questions about variations on the language
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09:08:31 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74838&oldid=74834 * Lebster * (-513) 
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09:28:53 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74839&oldid=74838 * Lebster * (+43) /* Online */
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09:30:55 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74840&oldid=74839 * Lebster * (-33) /* Online */
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11:19:47 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74841&oldid=74778 * DmilkaSTD * (+52) 
11:20:32 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74842&oldid=69526 * DmilkaSTD * (-122) nobody cares about me
11:22:10 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74843&oldid=69535 * DmilkaSTD * (-90) 
11:28:02 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74844&oldid=74841 * DmilkaSTD * (+139) 
11:31:41 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74845&oldid=74738 * DanielCristofani * (+265) 
11:46:37 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74846&oldid=74845 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) rm sp
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11:52:24 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74847&oldid=71312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
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11:57:06 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74848&oldid=72790 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Edge cases */
11:57:48 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74849&oldid=74848 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Using variables */
11:57:56 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74850&oldid=74849 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Using variables */
11:58:40 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74851&oldid=74850 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Modes */
11:59:43 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74852&oldid=74756 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Languages */
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12:10:40 <esowiki> [[Functional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74853&oldid=38828 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* See also */ cat
12:13:10 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74854&oldid=74842 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Introduction */
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12:16:36 <esowiki> [[Unrandom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74855&oldid=69308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) /* Compilation */
12:17:21 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74856&oldid=74854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Implementation */ cats
12:18:49 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74857&oldid=74843 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) cats
12:19:47 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74858&oldid=74840 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Operations */
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12:36:05 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74859&oldid=74844 * DmilkaSTD * (+42) 
12:43:45 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74860&oldid=74859 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) 
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12:54:20 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74861&oldid=74648 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) 
12:56:02 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74862&oldid=74860 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) 
13:07:13 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74863&oldid=74396 * DmilkaSTD * (+138) bases
13:09:19 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74864&oldid=74861 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) 
13:19:50 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74865&oldid=74571 * A * (+108) 
13:22:39 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74866&oldid=74863 * DmilkaSTD * (+1229) not going to lie but I hate this language
13:25:39 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74867&oldid=74865 * A * (+127) /* Instruction list */
13:25:40 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74868&oldid=74862 * DmilkaSTD * (+369) 
13:26:21 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74869&oldid=74864 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) grammar++;
13:27:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74870&oldid=74819 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-826) Blanked the page
13:27:50 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74871 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1003) Created page with ":''Note that '''blues machine''' is typically lowercased except, often, at the start of a sentence. The '''blues machine''' is an [[OISC]] esolang by User:PythonshellDebugwi..."
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13:28:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74872&oldid=74754 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* B */ + [[Blues machine]]
13:29:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74873&oldid=74852 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Languages */
13:32:50 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74874&oldid=74867 * A * (-1) /* Official implementation = */
13:34:20 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74875&oldid=50500 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) cats + bold + prd
13:40:47 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74876&oldid=74871 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) /* Example: infinite loop */ simplify
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13:43:02 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74877&oldid=74342 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* List of OISCs */
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13:52:51 <esowiki> [[Bytemap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74878&oldid=66195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) 
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14:12:24 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74879&oldid=72244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) bold cat
14:13:30 <esowiki> [[SendStuff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74880&oldid=20562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) 
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14:16:03 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74881&oldid=74876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Example: infinite loop */
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14:17:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74882&oldid=74717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) /* Derivatives */
14:18:24 <esowiki> [[Aubergine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74883&oldid=53528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-36) /* Implementations */ not a derivative of itself
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14:23:01 <esowiki> [[Wigner's Fuckbuddy Is A Superposition of Top And Bottom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74884&oldid=40480 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* References */
14:23:47 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74885&oldid=74881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Examples */ c
14:25:04 <esowiki> [[SPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74886&oldid=69406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) /* Command set */
14:25:52 <esowiki> [[SPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74887&oldid=74886 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* External resources */ cats
14:27:36 <esowiki> [[ASCII art-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74888&oldid=53901 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) cats
14:30:19 <esowiki> [[3LEB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74889&oldid=72953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+140) 
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14:37:31 <esowiki> [[4004]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74890&oldid=68262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) 
14:38:32 <esowiki> [[ASCII art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74891&oldid=53905 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) caTS
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15:05:13 <esowiki> [[Javagony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74892&oldid=70452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* History */
15:05:25 <esowiki> [[Javagony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74893&oldid=74892 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* See also */
15:30:12 <esowiki> [[Tangle bracket language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74894&oldid=51463 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
15:31:20 <esowiki> [[~-~!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74895&oldid=52629 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:34:18 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74896 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2892) Created page with ":{{Back|Javagony}} This page will attempt to show the [[Turing-complete]]ness of [[Javagony]] through "translation" to [[brainfuck]]. (This was before User:PythonshellDebugw..."
15:37:48 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74897&oldid=74896 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+610) /* The proof */
15:38:38 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74898&oldid=74897 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-46) /* The code */ update
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16:11:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74899&oldid=74612 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Source format */
16:11:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74900&oldid=74899 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Others */
16:44:07 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74901&oldid=72089 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
16:44:30 <esowiki> [[Category:Programming games]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74902&oldid=54978 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) 
16:45:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74903&oldid=74882 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) /* Miscellaneous */
16:45:35 <esowiki> [[Category:Programming games]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74904&oldid=74902 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) expand
16:47:17 <esowiki> [[Smallfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74905&oldid=53073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* External resources */
16:47:57 <esowiki> [[Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74906&oldid=66988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* See Also */
16:48:49 <esowiki> [[Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74907&oldid=74906 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Use in esolangs */
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17:26:59 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74908 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1309) Created page with "'''Queuenanimous''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Memory model== Queuenanimous uses an unbounded [[queue]] of unbounded signed integers.  ==Syntax== Lik..."
17:27:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74909&oldid=74872 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Q */ +[[Queuenanimous]]
17:28:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74910&oldid=74909 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) /* A */
17:29:08 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74911&oldid=74873 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
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17:32:42 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74912&oldid=74908 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+443) /* Commands */ tc
18:15:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74913&oldid=74910 * Icecream17 * (+41) /* T */ Add 2 missing languages
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18:48:34 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74914&oldid=74912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Commands */
18:52:35 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74915&oldid=74914 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-447) /* Interpreter */
19:02:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74916&oldid=74739 * Ais523 * (+507) /* Problems w/ FORK and SPOON */ reply
19:08:15 <esowiki> [[User:Byskit-dev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74917&oldid=74830 * Byskit-dev * (-84) 
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19:14:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:Byskit-dev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74918 * Byskit-dev * (+28) Created page with "= Write stuff here = lol wut"
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19:19:17 <esowiki> [[Ghoti]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74919 * Byskit-dev * (+105) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Ghoti |author=[[User:Byskit-dev|Byskit dev]] |year=2020? |files=.fish, .ghoti }}"
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19:35:47 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74920&oldid=62328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* External resources */ it wasn't made in 2010
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19:52:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74921&oldid=74900 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-33) /* Computational class */
19:53:01 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74922&oldid=74921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-73) 
19:53:41 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74923&oldid=74915 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* External resources */ cats
20:12:02 <esowiki> [[Tic Tac Toe Grow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74924&oldid=70891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) 
20:12:25 <esowiki> [[Tic Tac Toe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74925&oldid=37455 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) 
20:13:34 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74926&oldid=65548 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) 
20:15:17 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74927&oldid=40547 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax */
20:18:23 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74928&oldid=74927 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) /* Implementations */ cats
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20:32:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74929&oldid=74832 * CodeLongAndPros * (+54) 
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20:47:31 <esowiki> [[Brainf***-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74930 * CodeLongAndPros * (+642) Created page with "[[Category:Brainfuck derivatives]]  BrainF***- is a BrainF*** derivative that has one more instruction:     {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Operation |- | _ || Subtracts..."
20:47:54 <esowiki> [[Brainf***-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74931&oldid=74930 * CodeLongAndPros * (+9) 
20:48:04 <esowiki> [[Brainf***-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74932&oldid=74931 * CodeLongAndPros * (+0) 
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20:48:54 <esowiki> [[Brainf***-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74933&oldid=74932 * CodeLongAndPros * (+2) 
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21:01:05 <esowiki> [[~ATH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74934&oldid=69688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Implementations */ cat, and it hasn't been implemented to the spec
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21:04:19 <esowiki> [[Brainf***-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74935&oldid=74933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) cats
21:05:20 <esowiki> [[Ghoti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74936&oldid=74919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Unpipe, cats, stub
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22:29:18 <int-e> `? ast
22:29:21 <HackEso> ast? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:29:37 <int-e> @metar lOwI
22:29:37 <lambdabot> LOWI 012220Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW006 BKN008 16/15 Q1016
22:32:16 <shachaf> @metar koak
22:32:16 <lambdabot> KOAK 012153Z 31014KT 10SM CLR 22/13 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T02220128
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22:51:42 <int-e> Meh, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/space.png -- with this much unused space (red box) why do you hide the commit history in a single line with the latest commit title (green box) with hardly any visual indicator?
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23:00:47 <int-e> The repo is because I wanted to find out when Stockfish started to distribute their testing efforts. Seems that happened 7 years ago.
23:02:18 <int-e> . o O ( Worst case scenario: They got the MS Office UI team to overhaul github. )
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23:18:43 <zzo38> Are you able to access it with git (to avoid dealing with their UI)?
23:19:13 <int-e> sure, but that m,eans downloading the whole repo
23:20:17 <int-e> the whole point (to me) of that web frontend is that I can look at projects I don't intend to contribute to
23:20:34 <int-e> See that "Add File" button? I can't imagine ever using that.
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23:23:44 <int-e> And they changed to round avatars, making the automatically generated "octothorps" even uglier.
23:24:28 <int-e> Another totally unnecessary change. Probably not worth complaining about, but here I am...
23:24:47 <zzo38> O, OK. Maybe to propose for git a protocol to access without downloading the whole repo, then?
23:25:08 <zzo38> Can you use CSS to change the shape of the avatars, or does it change the shape during rendering pictures on the server?
23:26:55 <int-e> I don't want to spend any time on that :P
23:26:58 <zzo38> Why does the problems with my internet tends to be near the end of the month?
23:28:19 <int-e> does the provider have monthly caps?
23:28:52 <zzo38> I don't think so, but I don't know.
23:29:42 <zzo38> Why does <SPAN CLASS="m2"> appears a different colour in Lynx?
23:29:44 <int-e> (that would offer a potential explanation, people doing big downloads at the end of the month when it's clear that they won't exceed the cap)
23:30:25 <zzo38> Yes, maybe.
23:37:27 <esowiki> [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74937&oldid=74755 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Interpreter in C (solo.h) */ fix cat
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2020-07-02:

00:38:52 <esowiki> [[Unicorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74938&oldid=66810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) 
00:40:45 <esowiki> [[Unicorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74939&oldid=74938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* External resources */
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02:34:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74940&oldid=72617 * DanielCristofani * (+802) /* A possible proof */
02:53:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I believe git already has a protocol that doesn't require downloading the whole repo from the server side, it's just that git the software can't handle partial repositories on the client side. This is a big reason why I recommend svn.
02:54:52 <b_jonas> but I could be wrong
02:55:03 <b_jonas> maybe the server doesn't quite allow you to pick which objects to download
02:55:32 <b_jonas> the svn client also isn't perfect about this, but it handles partial repositories much better
02:56:24 <zzo38> Well, you can use svn for your own projects (although I use Fossil myself), but many people use git.
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06:35:19 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74941&oldid=54495 * Zzo38 * (+1602) PostScript
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09:31:11 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74942&oldid=74837 * Chris Pressey * (-9) /* Example programs */ Fix initialization idioms in example programs (h/t arseniiv, I'm still catching up)
09:54:36 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74943&oldid=74942 * Chris Pressey * (+40) Give in to determinism. Add section on non-terminating rewrites.
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10:37:16 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74944&oldid=74943 * Chris Pressey * (+146) /* Computational class */ Answer one of these questions.
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10:55:48 <cpressey> I detect a distinct tendency by the users of the esolang wiki to see every language in terms of brainfuck
10:56:18 <int-e> All esolangs are brainfuck derivatives.
10:56:21 <int-e> :P
10:57:07 <Taneb> Yeah, I used to be like that once upon a time
10:57:08 <int-e> Especially Intercal.
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10:57:22 <Taneb> With good guidance they'll grow out of it
10:58:14 <int-e> (This is me trying to build up a time travel joke, or failing that, a break of causality through unfettered coming from.)
10:58:36 <int-e> (But it won't be funny. :P)
10:58:43 <shachaf> Chet out my fancy inotify program: https://shachaf.net/tmp/mustardwatch/mustardwatch.c
10:58:52 <shachaf> It uses ptrace to detect what files a program uses and reruns it when they change.
10:59:53 <Taneb> shachaf: that's a pretty cool idea
11:01:03 <int-e> cpressey: This category is *totally* Brainfuck-centric: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Before_1993
11:01:42 <int-e> Hah, we have Perl and Python?
11:04:07 <int-e> (The latter article is a disappointment.)
11:13:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74945 * Chris Pressey * (+582) Feedback on this proof
11:17:34 <myname> cpressey: i think that decrementing part is just the loop condition
11:19:50 <cpressey> Yes, they're demonstrating that Javagony can do something that brainfuck interpreters do, I get that
11:19:59 <myname> like, translation of a bf program to javagony is the following: translate +.<> as written on the page. for [subprogram] create a method with that translation in Proof class and make call to proof.doWhileReadNe0(subprogramMethod)
11:20:04 <myname> it's not an interpreter
11:20:07 <Taneb> You know, I've never tried writing a brainfuck self-interpreter
11:20:11 <Taneb> I might give it a go
11:20:13 <myname> it's a framework for translating arbitrary bf programs
11:21:17 <cpressey> I stand by my statement that it's halfway to a brainfuck interpreter, which would be a 100% convincing proof of its TCness
11:22:53 <myname> ++[>+<-] would translate to: Proof.subprogram() { tape.right(); tape.write(tape.read() - 1); tape.left(); tape.write(tape.read() + 1); } and in main tape.write(tape.read() + 1); tape.write(tape.read() + 1); proof.doWhileReadNe0(proof.subprogram);
11:23:13 <myname> yeah, you could write an interpreter, but that not what this proof is about
11:23:17 <int-e> cpressey: I guess the simple truth is that Brainfuck is the one minimal programming language that everybody has heard of.
11:23:44 <int-e> (for some pretty big value of "everybody")
11:24:25 <myname> technically, that "proof" is not a real proof since it does not show that the translation does have the same semantics as the bf programm you are translating
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12:39:55 <esowiki> [[CUTLASS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74946&oldid=51170 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) that cat only has one page, rm
12:51:29 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74947&oldid=74866 * DmilkaSTD * (+27) 
12:52:13 <int-e> myname: That's a very common thing though. The attitude is usually that the reduction is the creative and tricky part while showing that the semantics are preserved is merely tedious routine.
12:53:10 <int-e> (Obviously there are exceptions.)
12:54:22 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74948&oldid=74736 * DmilkaSTD * (+106) +string,format
12:56:48 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74949&oldid=74948 * DmilkaSTD * (+120) +string.eg
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13:08:09 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74950&oldid=74947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Heap access */ cat
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14:08:46 <rain1> https://rdcu.be/b5nn1
14:09:50 <rain1> collatz checked 
14:35:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Retrac0 *  New user account
14:38:05 <Arcorann> Not bad
14:38:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74951&oldid=74929 * Retrac0 * (+155) 
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15:03:29 <esowiki> [[X.so]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74952&oldid=34447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) unpipe
15:04:23 <esowiki> [[Bitfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74953&oldid=36829 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) cats
15:05:46 <esowiki> [[RISBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74954&oldid=65757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+211) 
15:06:50 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74955&oldid=74516 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* External resources */ cats
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15:20:21 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74956&oldid=74898 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4873) 
15:20:56 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74957&oldid=74956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Main.java */
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15:28:37 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74958&oldid=74957 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* The proof */
15:31:52 <esowiki> [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74959&oldid=74958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+183) /* And now for a brainfuck interpreter... */
15:39:25 <esowiki> [[Entfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74960&oldid=54166 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* timeSealing */ cat
15:40:22 <esowiki> [[Alarm Clock Radio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74961&oldid=54014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* See also */
15:40:57 <esowiki> [[EPARM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74962&oldid=65408 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:41:57 <esowiki> [[SNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74963&oldid=65752 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:42:33 <esowiki> [[Extensions to SNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74964&oldid=53707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) 
15:42:51 <esowiki> [[SNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74965&oldid=74963 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* See also */
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15:44:19 <esowiki> [[Calculon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74966&oldid=21144 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 
15:45:12 <cpressey> arseniiv: I finally implemented it, including a parser and batch I/O -- https://github.com/catseye/Tandem
15:47:57 <esowiki> [[Golf (A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74967&oldid=69743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) 
16:06:17 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74968 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1144) Created page with "{{Wrongtitle|title=_}} {{WIP}} '''_''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Commands== {| class="wikitable sortable" ! Command !! Effect |- | <code>%</code> ||..."
16:06:43 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74969&oldid=74968 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Interpreter */
16:07:20 <esowiki> [[!!!Batch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74970&oldid=73352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-55) /* Derivatives */
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16:16:47 <arseniiv> yay!
16:16:50 <arseniiv> oh
16:16:59 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey yay!
16:16:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:29:58 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/Generalized Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74971&oldid=66960 * Arseniiv * (+224) I should have done it long ago
16:30:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Arseniiv *  moved [[User:Arseniiv/Generalized Minsky machine]] to [[Generalized Minsky machine]]: this model is quite a reasonable model
16:32:49 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74974&oldid=73742 * Arseniiv * (+152) should have done it a long time ago
16:34:13 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey also kudos for Minsky machine! Now I wonder would it be as easy to represent a generalized Minsky machine which uses arbitrary recursive polynomial types? <https://esolangs.org/wiki/Generalized_Minsky_machine>
16:34:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:35:12 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74975&oldid=70294 * Arseniiv * (-1) deslashing
16:43:19 <esowiki> [[Sandbox/td]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74976&oldid=69867 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
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17:13:30 <esowiki> [[Time Out]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74978&oldid=42291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Hello World */
17:15:41 <esowiki> [[HelloWorld]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74979&oldid=60498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+202) cats
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17:23:58 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74980&oldid=74857 * DmilkaSTD * (-22) 
17:25:59 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74981&oldid=74869 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) grammar+=2
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17:31:05 <esowiki> [[Revolution 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74982&oldid=36109 * DmilkaSTD * (+16) 
17:33:54 <esowiki> [[Revolution 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74983&oldid=74982 * DmilkaSTD * (+148) 
17:34:50 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hi
17:37:53 <kspalaiologos> hello
17:38:17 <kspalaiologos> I'm looking for an esolang to build an interpreter for
17:38:26 <kspalaiologos> I'd like to target something turing complete
17:38:48 <kspalaiologos> and preferably something that already has some code samples, but isn't trivial to program (like bf substitutions or smth)
17:39:08 <kspalaiologos> bonus points for evil bit-level twiddling operations
17:39:27 <b_jonas> hello arseniiv, kspalaiologos 
17:40:00 <kspalaiologos> i considered malbolge, but it's so well known that the surprise aspect is over :p
17:40:13 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> bonus points for evil bit-level twiddling operations => ohohoho can’t advice anything sorry
17:40:32 <kspalaiologos> bonus points =/= all points :p
17:40:58 <kspalaiologos> I just want to develop something as a showcase of what my x86 packer/obfuscator can do
17:41:48 <kspalaiologos> I thought about writing a NAND-based lang
17:41:55 <kspalaiologos> with some encryption or something
17:43:01 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: why does it have to be an esoteric language? you could just write a C compiler, there are plenty of code examples of C, including ones that do weird stuff
17:43:37 <kspalaiologos> it's very simple: because esolangs aren't this easy to work your way through
17:43:54 <kspalaiologos> some of my crackmes feature esolang X, which has a checker for the solution, with an x86 interpreter bundled
17:44:10 <kspalaiologos> so I'm looking for this X esolang that I could use for making a crackme
17:44:26 <kspalaiologos> there are bonus points for it being hard and not very common, because it adds up some difficulty
17:44:55 <kspalaiologos> also the interpreter has to be non-trivial, so the code protection stuff can really show off
17:45:19 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: how about one of the older ICFP languages then?
17:45:41 <b_jonas> including the ones that aren't documented on the esolang wiki, like the space navigation language
17:45:42 <kspalaiologos> uh, I looked it up, it seems interesting
17:45:51 <kspalaiologos> is there a list or something?
17:45:53 <b_jonas> or Intcode which isn't ICFP but similar
17:45:56 <kspalaiologos> the google doesn't link to anything useful
17:46:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sadly the old ICFP contest pages are hard to find,
17:46:32 <b_jonas> many of the websites are no longer online, since they're all organized by different groups
17:46:37 <b_jonas> http://icfpcontest.github.io/ has some links
17:46:45 <kspalaiologos> I used malbolge and I liked it, because a) it was hard to program/read/write b) encryption c) weird operators
17:47:16 <kspalaiologos> yeah
17:47:21 <kspalaiologos> ICFP seems like the way to go
17:47:27 <kspalaiologos> there is some interesting stuff there
17:47:34 <b_jonas> ICFP 2000 has GML, a stack-based pure functional language,
17:47:40 <b_jonas> well, almost pure functional
17:47:47 <b_jonas> the ray-tracing output is a side-effect
17:48:21 <b_jonas> 2004 has the ant brain language
17:48:40 <b_jonas> where you control a swarm of ants by writing a program that is running in the brain of each ant
17:48:43 <b_jonas> in a very limited language
17:48:58 <kspalaiologos> ah, this one is entertaining
17:49:14 <b_jonas> 2014 has two languages: GHC and GCC, one the style of 8-bit cpus, the other a haskell-style functional language 
17:49:40 <kspalaiologos> the 9-bit one seems promising
17:49:43 <kspalaiologos> *8
17:50:01 <b_jonas> 2011 has Lambda: the Gathering, a card game with a programming element, where you make a move by composing a function with another function from either the left or right
17:50:18 <b_jonas> see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:ICFP_contest
17:50:56 <kspalaiologos> nice
17:51:00 <kspalaiologos> I will evilify it to be hard to program
17:51:03 <b_jonas> 2007 has Fuun DNA and RNA, where DNA acts as a turing-complete preprocessor and RNA is a vector drawing language with no programming constructs directly inside it which is why you use the preprocessor
17:51:04 <kspalaiologos> and it will make a good tool
17:51:10 <b_jonas> it's a very interesting string-based language
17:51:42 <b_jonas> oh, and 2006 has UM-32, another low-level cpu-like language, I recommend that one
17:51:45 <b_jonas> see https://esolangs.org/wiki/UM-32
17:51:57 <kspalaiologos> yes yes
17:52:00 <kspalaiologos> this is the one on my mind
17:52:00 <b_jonas> well, see the original contest description that must be linked from it instead
17:52:24 <b_jonas> and there were contests every year since, but I don't have the links
17:52:48 <kspalaiologos> I'll remove instructions 3,4,5
17:53:01 <kspalaiologos> 8,9 and add realloced permagen instead
17:53:11 <kspalaiologos> or not
17:53:17 <kspalaiologos> because this seems like harvard architecture to me
17:54:16 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: if you change instructions, you won't be able to run the code that contains the contest
17:54:23 <b_jonas> you wanted code examples, there is one, the Codex
17:54:30 <b_jonas> if you want to run that, you need the full language
17:54:32 <kspalaiologos> I can write em myself
17:55:02 <b_jonas> oh, so you don't want existing example programs after all?
17:56:37 <kspalaiologos> example programs are here to point me the direction
17:56:46 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74984&oldid=74789 * DmilkaSTD * (-1865) 
17:56:47 <kspalaiologos> not for anything else
17:56:59 <b_jonas> and to test the correctness of your interpreter
17:57:06 <kspalaiologos> yes
17:57:09 <kspalaiologos> and, hah, interesting to see
17:57:14 <kspalaiologos> someone is taking on brainfuck assembly too
17:57:44 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74985&oldid=74984 * DmilkaSTD * (+28) 
17:59:21 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74986&oldid=74985 * DmilkaSTD * (-13) 
18:05:49 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74987&oldid=74986 * DmilkaSTD * (+177) 
18:06:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74988 * DmilkaSTD * (+116) Created page with "== How to make a compiler == If you want to make a compiler here I'm going to post here my ideas for making one.<br>"
18:08:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74989&oldid=74988 * DmilkaSTD * (+41) 
18:08:39 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74990&oldid=74987 * DmilkaSTD * (-675) 
18:09:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74991&oldid=74989 * DmilkaSTD * (+64) 
18:14:10 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74992&oldid=74990 * DmilkaSTD * (+265) +basic instructions
18:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74993&oldid=74991 * DmilkaSTD * (+60) 
18:15:42 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74994&oldid=74992 * DmilkaSTD * (+4) 
18:17:34 <esowiki> [[User talk:Byskit-dev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74995&oldid=74918 * DmilkaSTD * (+16) 
18:19:30 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74996&oldid=74994 * DmilkaSTD * (+95) 
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18:44:01 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74998&oldid=74997 * DmilkaSTD * (+19) fixed kfor
18:44:34 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74999&oldid=74998 * DmilkaSTD * (+13) 
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18:53:08 <esowiki> [[HelloWorld]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75001&oldid=74979 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) Fixed the category
18:59:00 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75002&oldid=75000 * DmilkaSTD * (+67) 
19:00:44 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75003&oldid=69155 * DmilkaSTD * (-3145) Replaced content with "'''Esomachine''' was made by [[User:DmilkaSTD]]. It is a [[:Category:cell-based|cell-based]] language that has an [[accumulator]] and it's based in the game [https://en.wi..."
19:01:18 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75004&oldid=75003 * DmilkaSTD * (-36) 
19:02:37 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75005&oldid=75004 * DmilkaSTD * (+147) +memory
19:03:10 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75006&oldid=75005 * DmilkaSTD * (+28) 
19:04:55 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75007&oldid=74981 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) grammar+=3;
19:05:45 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75008&oldid=74980 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Proof that "Espaol" is uncomputable */
19:06:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75009&oldid=74993 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) rm br
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19:10:58 <esowiki> [[Revolution 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75010&oldid=74983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+167) cats
19:11:09 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75011&oldid=75002 * DmilkaSTD * (+190) get rekt noob
19:12:26 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75012&oldid=75006 * DmilkaSTD * (+209) I actually hate this esolang
19:14:28 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75013&oldid=75012 * DmilkaSTD * (+25) 
19:14:43 <esowiki> [[CLooP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75014&oldid=25356 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
19:15:18 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75015&oldid=75011 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) 
19:15:27 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75016&oldid=75013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Commands */
19:15:45 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75017&oldid=75016 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) 
19:17:49 <esowiki> [[CLooP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75018&oldid=75014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat
19:19:00 <esowiki> [[NRSRSSOMN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75019&oldid=49768 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
19:20:22 <esowiki> [[RESOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75020&oldid=16708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 
19:21:40 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75021&oldid=75017 * DmilkaSTD * (+581) dreams
19:22:04 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75022&oldid=75015 * DmilkaSTD * (+26) 
19:23:03 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75023&oldid=75021 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Comments */ grm
19:25:14 <esowiki> [[Callable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75024&oldid=72412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Syntax */
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19:27:19 <esowiki> [[Callable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75025&oldid=75024 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* BNF */
19:28:07 <esowiki> [[Callable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75026&oldid=75025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Function list */
19:29:42 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75027&oldid=74969 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) 
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19:31:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75028&oldid=74913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Non-alphabetic */ +[[|_]] (this title breaks monospace!)
19:32:58 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75029&oldid=75027 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) /* Commands */
19:33:32 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75030&oldid=75029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) /* Interpreter */
19:33:45 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75031&oldid=75030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Commands */
19:34:09 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75032&oldid=75023 * DmilkaSTD * (+331) almost
19:34:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75033&oldid=74911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Languages */
19:39:37 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75034&oldid=75032 * DmilkaSTD * (+435) almost
19:39:56 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75035&oldid=75031 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-291) /* Interpreter */ github
19:40:50 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75036&oldid=74885 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* External resources */
19:56:44 <esowiki> [[Esomachine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75037&oldid=75034 * DmilkaSTD * (+836) finished my childhood esolang (literally)
20:18:58 <esowiki> [[Control Character]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75038&oldid=61366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-167) 
20:21:22 <esowiki> [[PATH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75039&oldid=65751 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* External resources */ cats
20:32:29 <esowiki> [[Hardlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75040&oldid=63907 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+278) 
20:36:19 <esowiki> [[SLOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75041&oldid=68235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
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23:41:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Thorimur *  New user account
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23:48:18 <esowiki> [[Particle automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75042&oldid=7879 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) See also
23:49:50 <esowiki> [[Noit o' mnain worb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75043&oldid=43391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* External resources */ cat
23:54:25 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75044&oldid=74870 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) 
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2020-07-03:

00:27:00 <int-e> @metar lowI
00:27:01 <lambdabot> LOWI 030020Z AUTO 26004KT 9999 FEW005 BKN007 17/16 Q1017
00:27:48 <shachaf> I put my thing up: https://github.com/shachaf/mustardwatch
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00:44:18 <zzo38> I thought of some idea of Magic: the Gathering card:   {?} World Enchantment ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, each player may put a world card from their graveyard into their hand. ;; The world rule does not apply. ;; Cumulative upkeep {2}
00:49:04 -!- adu has joined.
00:49:26 <zzo38> Do you like this?
01:35:37 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:23:51 <zzo38> Would you find the mistake in my program before I did?
02:24:18 <zzo38> (Or if the mistake is rather the test)
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04:01:50 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
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05:57:09 <zzo38> (I think the mistake was actually the test)
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06:49:33 <zzo38> I thought of a simple way to make a C and PostScript polyglot program: Write the PostScript code first, with "/* pop" at the beginning, and "quit */" or "currentfile flushfile */" at the end.
06:52:14 <myname> while you are at it, you could also make it lhs
06:53:50 <zzo38> Yes, that can be done easily enough, too.
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07:04:51 <zzo38> (I don't know if you need a C and PostScript polyglot; I do use C and shell script polyglots though.)
07:14:11 <shachaf> For what?
07:16:15 <zzo38> Mainly to include compilation commands in the file
07:19:17 <shachaf> But all my shell scripts include #!
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07:24:57 <zzo38> Yes, although I just run it with "bash xyz.c" or whatever, so #! is not needed in that case (nor is the execute bit needed).
07:31:19 <zzo38> (My shell scripts that are not C programs do include #! at first and do have the execute bit)
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08:46:55 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75045&oldid=74858 * Lebster * (-62) /* Operations */
08:58:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: another way to make a C and PostScript polyglot depends on the C++ digraphs that were introduced to C by the C95 standard: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=520045
09:01:19 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=523373 has a more polyglot version
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09:03:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: the longer C and PostScript polyglot uses a different trick to start out and no digraphs: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=591502 
09:03:57 <b_jonas> (I'm pretty sure I know who posted those anonymous nodes.)
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09:31:00 <esowiki> [[ASCII]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75046&oldid=69949 * Lebster * (+4256) added table
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09:31:53 <shachaf> `5 w
09:31:57 <HackEso> 1/1:lkoen//LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé. \ paperless//In a paperless world, rock would never lose. \ dew//In the Famous Mountains of York, Taneb makes dew. \ warning//Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence. \ just intonation//Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
09:34:52 <int-e> `cwlprits just intonation
09:34:54 <HackEso> Jafët
09:35:29 <int-e> maybe it was funny in context? seems entirely forgettable to me...
09:37:14 <cpressey> int-e: I think it's play on "bad-tempered" vs "well-tempered"?
09:37:35 <int-e> cpressey: ah, maybe
09:37:56 * int-e isn't very musical.
09:38:21 <cpressey> @tell arseniiv Right, so lambdabot doesn't actually tell you that you have messages, until you *say something* on the channel.
09:38:21 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:38:35 <int-e> cpressey: it certainly makes it better :)
09:39:31 <int-e> cpressey: I believe the main lambdabot authors were the screen- or irc bouncer kind of people.
09:40:00 <int-e> which makes merely joining a channel a bad indicator of activity
09:40:56 <cpressey> it's just that we were trying to figure out what the trigger actually was, the other day
09:41:39 <int-e> It's activity on the channel. And then there's a rate limit, so I suppose testing it out can be a little hard.
09:42:47 <int-e> (I'd have to check the code, but I believe it just keeps a time stamp of the latest notification which is checkd even when there are new messages.)
09:44:19 <int-e> Let me check actually.
09:46:02 <int-e> I'm wrong. There is a rate limit (pretty low, once per day), but it is reset when a new message is added.
09:49:07 <shachaf> It's an above-average pun for wisdom, I think!
09:50:07 <int-e> shachaf: It's good, but too advanced for me.
09:51:32 <int-e> does anybody else find youtube's (relatively new) mini player annoying?
09:53:21 <shachaf> I'm not sure I've seen it.
09:53:24 <int-e> (What happens is that I search for a video, click a thumbnail, and expect to get the video page... but if I click a bit too far to the right it triggers the "add to queue" action that activates the mini player.)
09:53:56 <shachaf> YouTube seems pretty user-hostile to me. They always turn on autoplay which I doubt is what hardly anyone wants by default, but is surely good for \rainbow{engagement}.
09:54:55 <int-e> Good use of the rainbow command.
09:55:24 <int-e> Yes, autoplay is high on my personal list of youtube annoyances.
09:55:33 <shachaf> I would use the actual rainbow command, but I think you have colors and colours disabled.
09:55:44 <int-e> I do.
09:55:48 <shachaf> Anyway, as Google says: "We believe that advertising can be effective without being flashy. We don’t accept pop–up advertising, which interferes with your ability to see the content you’ve requested."
09:55:54 <shachaf> I think YouTube captures this quite well.
09:56:51 <shachaf> Man, the Pragmatics of SAT workshop is in about 4 hours.
09:57:08 <shachaf> I kind of want to try attending but I doubt I should be awake then.
10:00:50 <int-e> I guess the mini player (or rather, the queuing feature that goes with it) could actually be fun if I didn't trigger it accidently so much.
10:01:57 <int-e> But then again, 95% of the time I want to watch one video at a time.
10:02:57 <int-e> I think I even asked here how to play an individual video from a playlist not too long ago.
10:03:35 <int-e> Oh well. Enough whining about bad UI/UX for today. :)
10:08:27 <shachaf> Using random SAT instances for testing was probably not a great idea.
10:10:07 <int-e> hmm
10:11:01 <cpressey> Speaking of \rainbow{engagement}, I am saddened to note that Mozilla has apparently decided that their browser's "blank page" should in fact include headlines/previews of "recommended articles"
10:11:16 <int-e> I know I've read a bit about random instances but nothing stuck.
10:12:14 <shachaf> Well, many of the interesting tricks are just not very relevant for random instances.
10:12:20 <int-e> cpressey: Yeah I still configure it to have a proper blank page.
10:12:47 <shachaf> Apparently there was a lot of progress when people started using industrial instances instead of random instances as benchmarks?
10:13:13 <shachaf> I heard a similar thing about allocators -- that people used to test allocator performance with synthetic workloads, and they became much better when people started using real workloads.
10:13:23 <int-e> It's hard to have random instances that simultaneously exhibt the kind of locality you get in real life.
10:13:49 <int-e> But that's just a vague idea that sounds smart, with no real insight in how to overcome it.
10:14:11 <shachaf> https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~vganesh/Publications_files/vg2015-SATGraf-SAT15.pdf is probably related to that?
10:15:00 <shachaf> I like the pretty SAT instance pictures.
10:15:04 <int-e> cpressey: mozilla's doing way too much syndication these days.
10:15:22 <int-e> including things like "recommend extensions when you browse"
10:15:28 <int-e> s/when/as/
10:15:31 <cpressey> int-e: Yeah, I've noticed.
10:16:21 <shachaf> Today's recommended extension is .jpg
10:17:36 <int-e> `? password
10:17:37 <HackEso> The password of the month is peeping Tom.
10:19:50 <int-e> Ah right, null window searches.
10:20:00 <int-e> Anyway, July's is still up for grabs.
10:20:20 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is still up for grabs.
10:20:25 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is still up for grabs.
10:21:39 <int-e> mmm setting potm by proxy
10:21:52 <shachaf> I figured you were doing that.
10:22:06 <shachaf> I mean, with maybe 70% confidence.
10:22:14 <shachaf> Of course I don't get points for saying that after you.
10:22:57 <int-e> I wasn't, but is anybody going to believe that...
10:23:10 <shachaf> Oh no.
10:23:33 <shachaf> Now it's the worst of all worlds for me.
10:23:55 <shachaf> Hmm, I have this function that writes some strings to a FILE * argument. If you pass it stdout it works fine, but if you pass it stderr it writes and flushes a lot of small strings.
10:23:59 <shachaf> What's the way to get around that?
10:24:18 <shachaf> I guess ideally it wouldn't write to a FILE * at all but just give you a string, or something...
10:24:44 <shachaf> Well, I don't know what's ideal.
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10:28:20 <int-e> tinker with setbuf() to make stderr buffered, or write to a string buffer, then write that to the file?
10:28:41 <int-e> (or setlinebuf)
10:29:03 <shachaf> I wonder what would be a good API to give callers in practice.
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10:30:07 <int-e> Hmm, wasn't aware of fmemopen.
10:31:10 <int-e> (or its dynamic friend, open_memstream)
10:33:07 <shachaf> That's another thing I was considering.
10:33:26 <shachaf> Or rather I was considering open_memstream, I didn't know about the other one.
10:35:03 <shachaf> In the general case you don't necessarily want the entire output to be in memory, though. You just want a fixed buffer that you can flush.
10:35:28 <shachaf> I guess setbuf works OK but it makes the caller do more work.
10:37:53 <shachaf> Maybe the function should do its own buffering.
10:38:07 <int-e> ideally you'd add a buffer temporarily if there isn't one already... but you can't query whether an fd is buffered, I think.
10:38:33 <int-e> Err, file handle, of FILE * type.
10:39:16 <shachaf> Yes.
10:39:32 <shachaf> I mean, the ideal API to present is maybe something like a state machine, but that makes the function way more work to write.
10:44:19 <cpressey> /* Note: this function makes many small writes to the FILE * passed to it -- it may behoove you to ensure it is buffered. */
10:44:36 <cpressey> That's all I'd do
10:44:42 <int-e> "behoove"
10:44:50 <int-e> so fancy
10:47:00 <cpressey> It's a word that I use strangely frequently considering how funny it is
10:47:11 <cpressey> It's just that it's the mot juste sometimes
10:47:46 <int-e> It's fine, just really rare, and maybe a tad condescending.
10:48:11 <cpressey> "it may be in your interests to ensure that it's buffered" is a bit long.  "You might want to ensure it is buffered", maybe.
10:48:20 <cpressey> My point is, I don't know what the caller wants.
10:48:20 <int-e> So maybe a bit out of place for technical documentation? I don't know.
10:48:36 <cpressey> Maybe they want lots of small writes on an unbuffered stream.  It's possible!
10:48:55 <int-e> It's hard to phrase this in a way that does not come across as condescending. You are giving advice after all.
10:49:34 <cpressey> The other option is just to have the first part of the comment, and hope the client can infer the second part.
10:50:19 <int-e> As a result, this function may be slow on unbuffered streams.
10:50:56 <cpressey> Sure, that's less opinionated.
10:51:55 <int-e> You better ensure the stream is buffered unless you like your code slowing down to a crawl!
10:52:11 <int-e> You are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum :)
10:52:52 <int-e> This is also really close to bikeshedding.
10:54:14 <shachaf> cpressey: OK, but it's supposed to be maximally convenient to use.
10:54:58 <shachaf> Maybe making every caller do setbuf is OK, but it seems annoying since this'll be in all of my programs.
10:56:40 <int-e> maximal convenience indicates you should bite the bullet and do your own internal buffering, and live with the memory overhead and potential double copying.
10:56:47 <shachaf> The specific case is a function that generates --help text for programs.
10:57:06 <shachaf> So it probably all doesn't matter.
10:57:15 <int-e> otoh this doesn't sound performance critical at all
10:57:37 <shachaf> It isn't.
10:57:45 <int-e> then KISS it
10:58:08 <shachaf> It's just this does things like indenting by printing a bunch of spaces in a loop, and it's not great to have each one be a system call.
10:58:22 <int-e> (Huh, why have I never seen anybody use that as a verb? It's so natural!)
10:58:58 <int-e> I guess the sexual connotations make it inappropriate in most contexts.
10:58:58 <shachaf> I think everyone says "KitSS". It really rolls off the tongue.
11:00:34 <int-e> aren't there things like printf("%*s", n, "")?
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11:11:34 <shachaf> Oh, hmm.
11:12:45 <shachaf> I guess there are!
11:13:52 <shachaf> That helps with the worst of it. But there are still other things like if (x) { printf("..."); } else { printf("   "); }
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11:18:38 <cpressey> <shachaf> The specific case is a function that generates --help text for programs.  <== I'm going to go out on a limb and say that on modern machines, such text will always easily fit in memory.
11:19:13 <shachaf> It's true. But then the caller would need to give it a buffer or something.
11:19:17 <shachaf> Or it would need to use malloc.
11:20:03 <cpressey> Would it be a sad thing for it to use malloc?
11:20:38 <cpressey> In specific, I had the thought, "If only there was a version of sprintf() that just doubles the size of the buffer each time it would otherwise overflow".
11:21:03 <cpressey> But to be fair I haven't programmed in C in years and years now
11:22:15 <shachaf> Well, it's silly for an API to use malloc if it doesn't need to.
11:22:28 <shachaf> It might not be available.
11:22:37 <shachaf> And it isn't great for temporary allocations anyway.
11:24:39 <int-e> Obviously you should be using CPP magic to make the help message a constant string.
11:25:11 <shachaf> I'm already using too much other magic to generate it.
11:27:08 <int-e> It's important to hang on to those shreds of sanity :)
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12:02:45 <esowiki> [[H9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75047&oldid=71612 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+382) 
12:03:21 <esowiki> [[H9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75048&oldid=75047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Interpreter */
12:03:59 <esowiki> [[H9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75049&oldid=75048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Interpreter */
12:06:04 <esowiki> [[LSCEF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75050&oldid=69599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Usage in interpreters */ cat
12:07:20 <esowiki> [[Screw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75051&oldid=64120 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) 
12:08:24 <esowiki> [[Echidna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75052&oldid=66183 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) cat + stub
12:11:33 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75053&oldid=71968 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) /* External resources */
12:11:47 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75054&oldid=75053 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Implemetation */
12:12:10 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75055&oldid=75054 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Implemetation */ grm
12:12:23 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75056&oldid=75055 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implemetantion */
12:14:06 <esowiki> [[Starfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75057&oldid=50717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) link = null;
12:15:10 <esowiki> [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75058&oldid=71248 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) link.hasPipe = false;
12:25:33 <esowiki> [[Thue-Mirr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75059&oldid=60088 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold + move cats
12:26:31 <int-e> do the esolang cats have whiskers?
12:29:41 <t20kdc> it's a language-dependent thing
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12:35:54 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75060&oldid=74999 * DmilkaSTD * (+184) 
12:36:24 <arseniiv> hon. and learned friend fungot how’s the weat
12:36:24 <fungot> arseniiv: ( and he didn't bother.
12:37:04 <arseniiv> …her
12:45:38 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75061&oldid=75022 * DmilkaSTD * (+335) 
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12:53:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * DmilkaSTD *  uploaded "[[File:EsohackGraph.png]]"
12:55:10 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75063&oldid=75061 * DmilkaSTD * (+57) 
12:59:03 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75064&oldid=75063 * DmilkaSTD * (+49) 
13:03:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75065&oldid=75044 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+585) 
13:03:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75066&oldid=75065 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) escape pipe
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13:04:58 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75067&oldid=75064 * DmilkaSTD * (+58) 
13:05:59 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75068&oldid=75067 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) 
13:20:45 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75069&oldid=75068 * DmilkaSTD * (+70) 
13:21:53 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75070&oldid=75060 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) 
13:22:41 <esowiki> [[Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75071&oldid=56028 * DmilkaSTD * (+45) 
13:24:36 <esowiki> [[Assemblyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75072&oldid=75071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* See Also: */ cats
13:24:50 <esowiki> [[Assemblyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75073&oldid=75072 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Specification and instructions */ 5 += 1
13:32:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75074 * DmilkaSTD * (+35) Created page with "== My idea for making a compiler =="
13:42:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75075&oldid=75074 * DmilkaSTD * (+508) 
13:42:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75076&oldid=75075 * DmilkaSTD * (-2) 
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13:43:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75077&oldid=75076 * DmilkaSTD * (+13) 
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13:49:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Skyf0l *  New user account
13:52:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75079&oldid=75078 * DmilkaSTD * (+20) 
13:55:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75080&oldid=75079 * DmilkaSTD * (+105) 
13:55:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75081&oldid=74951 * Skyf0l * (+114) I have added me !
13:57:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75082&oldid=75066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1112) 
14:02:47 <cpressey> arseniiv: hi.  Generalized Minksy machine is very cool, but to implement it in Tandem wouldn't you need to be able to define a concrete string representation for each of the values? Would there be a way to do this canonically?
14:04:30 <arseniiv> cpressey: hi!
14:04:33 <cpressey> (btw, Tandem is still broken, because ⊥ and algebraic manipulations hate each other)
14:06:11 <arseniiv> I’d represent values in a prefix (Polish) notation, or maybe in a S-expression notation or similar, but it seems they are all stack-unfriendly
14:07:04 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75083&oldid=72330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+261) /* Commands */ code tags + newline is obvious
14:07:15 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75084&oldid=75083 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-35) /* Truth-machine */
14:08:23 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75085&oldid=75084 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-16) /* Auto-formatting */
14:08:36 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75086&oldid=75085 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Auto-formatting */ edit spam
14:08:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75087&oldid=75082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+379) /* Elements */
14:08:58 <arseniiv> for example let { data Nat = Z | S Nat; data ListN = N | C Nat ListN }, then I would represent C (S (S Z)) $ C Z $ C (S (S (S Z))) N as CSSZCZCSSSZN or (C(S(SZ))(CZ(C(S(S(SZ)))N)))
14:09:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75088&oldid=74809 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 
14:09:45 <arseniiv> hm no, it seems S-expressions may be friendly if we use something to track open parentheses discarded, why
14:09:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75089&oldid=75088 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
14:10:33 <arseniiv> well that’s all like you used for the usual Minsky machine with nats, though you used an empty string for Z
14:10:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75090&oldid=75080 * DmilkaSTD * (+349) 
14:11:09 <arseniiv> CSSZCZCSSSZN => looks Czech and Hungarian to me
14:11:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75091&oldid=75090 * DmilkaSTD * (+16) 
14:13:25 <arseniiv> cpressey: answering your question in full, yeah, I believe a representation like those would be canonical. We can even use multi-letter constructors, I forgot one can match many characters at once
14:15:49 <arseniiv> like Cons␣S␣S␣Z␣Cons␣Z␣Nil␣ for the prefix version, ending each name in a space. Though this is not the deal of course, but it’s neat we can be faithful to the details of the original haskell-like naming of constructors
14:15:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Assemblyfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75092&oldid=75091 * DmilkaSTD * (+2213) 
14:16:14 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75093&oldid=75070 * DmilkaSTD * (+134) 
14:16:19 <arseniiv> I like these space brackets ␣␣␣
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14:16:50 <arseniiv> I used them sometimes long time ago when I wrote programs by hand
14:17:12 <arseniiv> don’t remember where I learned about them
14:17:46 <cpressey> I see, I think.  Well, as long as you can build & consume them from one side only, you only need one stack to hold them (and if you can't, you can probably put them across two stacks, like a tape, if you're prepared to juggle them a bit)
14:17:54 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hi how are your languages doing?
14:18:13 <kspalaiologos> I wrote an emulator
14:18:17 <kspalaiologos> for this UM32 thingy
14:18:43 <kspalaiologos> it works, and it's moderately obfuscated
14:18:52 <kspalaiologos> the best settings for some reason break the program so I'm checking it
14:19:08 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah maybe two stacks would be enough, didn’t thought about that. One is definitely not, as we can’t add from another end. Hmm how about a deque-rewriting language where you can match on both ends?
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14:21:51 <arseniiv> though that would need a revamp of the Haskell impl as it currently uses lists
14:22:09 <arseniiv> and that would be not a minimal language anymore
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14:29:23 <kspalaiologos> aye
14:30:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75094&oldid=75087 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Elements */
14:31:54 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75095&oldid=74874 * A * (+186) 
14:33:44 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75096&oldid=75095 * A * (+289) /* Reversible branching */
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14:34:52 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75097&oldid=75096 * A * (+177) /* Definitions */
14:37:00 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75098&oldid=75097 * A * (+93) /* Branching */
14:38:44 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75099&oldid=75098 * A * (+105) /* Instruction list */
14:39:32 <cpressey> Hmm.  It is a bit difficult to simulate matching either end of a deque, when you simulate the deque with two stacks.  Each stack needs to be a full copy and, when you rewrite one of them, you have to make the same change to the other (but since it's upside-down, a fair bit of work is involved)
14:44:43 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75100&oldid=75099 * A * (+132) /* Instruction list */
14:46:35 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75101&oldid=75100 * A * (+38) /* Unofficial extension */
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15:03:35 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, both ends at the same time is tricky. Maybe one could first shuffle all content to the left half-stack, then shuffle the matched amount of character back, and if there’s no match on either end, it should be genuine
15:03:50 <arseniiv> s/character/characters
15:04:59 <arseniiv> oh wait there is no “match any character and then place it here”, that’s a minor difficulty too
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15:49:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75102&oldid=75094 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+346) /* Each tick */
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16:38:32 <esowiki> [[Esoteric algorithm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75103&oldid=64510 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Potential Use */ cat+link
16:45:42 <esowiki> [[ChineseScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75104&oldid=38538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) 
16:47:08 <esowiki> [[Unnamed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75105&oldid=44807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) 
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17:00:15 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75106&oldid=73669 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) /* Cat program for 1 char */
17:01:01 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75107&oldid=75106 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Cat program for 1 char */ explain
17:05:23 <esowiki> [[Deviating Percolator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75108&oldid=42064 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Interpreters */ clearly made in 2010; the year it was implemented is not the year it was created
17:05:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75109&oldid=75102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+722) /* Object movement */
17:08:31 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75110&oldid=70779 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) let pipe: String? = nil; cats.add()
17:09:25 <esowiki> [[Sea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75111&oldid=72528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) another stub-wip
17:09:59 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75112&oldid=71076 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) link to /* Brainf*** equivalence */
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17:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75113&oldid=75069 * DmilkaSTD * (+11) 
17:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75114&oldid=75113 * DmilkaSTD * (-11) 
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17:33:46 <b_jonas> "<kspalaiologos> I wrote an emulator / for this UM32 thingy" => nice
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17:53:42 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> YouTube [...] always turn on autoplay" => disagreed, in my experience they turn on autoplay but it's easy to turn off and they only turn it back on once every six years or so, so that part isn't too annoying
17:53:55 <shachaf> Well, I mean they turn it on by default.
17:54:09 <shachaf> I do all my browsing in fresh browser sessions so I have to turn it off constantly.
17:54:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: ah. I browse youtube from the same few sessions all the time (as in, same one session at home until I reinstall the OS, one session at the work computer etc)
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17:55:36 <b_jonas> "<int-e> [...] how to play an individual video from a [youtube] playlist" => there was an easy interface for that in at least some previous version of youtube, let me check
17:55:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75115&oldid=75081 * CubixThree * (+197) I made me go on the tihng!!
17:57:08 <b_jonas> int-e: can't find a very easy way now, the easiest I recommend is to load the video in the playlist then edit the url bar to remove the "list" GET parameter 
17:57:30 <b_jonas> that, or use youtube-dl, which can list playlists
17:57:33 <b_jonas> and metadata
18:02:47 <b_jonas> "<int-e> [mozilla] "recommend extensions when you browse"" => how is that a bad thing? that means that they don't put those extensions as stuff suddenly appearing in your browser at a software update and annoying you by default until you disable it. they're showing restraint compared to how firefox usually works by only recommending stuff.
18:05:30 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> this function that writes some strings to a FILE * argument. If you pass it stdout it works fine, but if you pass it stderr it writes and flushes a lot of small strings. / What's the way to get around that?" => 
18:05:42 <shachaf>  /last fine
18:05:45 <shachaf> Oops.
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18:07:39 <b_jonas> if you can afford an extra syscall, then dup stderr, fdopen the dupe, setvbuf it to block-buffered, write into that FILE *, fflush and fclose at leisure. otherwise it's trickier and libc-dependent -- perl and python have easy ways to create an extra file descriptor without duping the underlying handle but libc doesn't.
18:13:11 <b_jonas> if you are using a libc that has the open_memstream function (which is in POSIX and glibc) and can afford to keep all the data that the function writes in memory at once, you can use open_memstream. otherwise glibc has non-portable functions to create a FILE * with custom backend functions, so you can probably implement an equivalent of fdopen that doesn't require duping the fd using that.
18:13:31 <esowiki> [[User:CubixThree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75116 * CubixThree * (+235) I made it!!! :D
18:14:09 <b_jonas> if none of these conditions apply, then I don't know any other solution to get a suitable FILE *, you'll have to make a version of your function with a different interface.
18:16:12 <b_jonas> "<int-e> tinker with setbuf() to make stderr buffered," => setvbuf instead of the ancient setbuf please, but I don't recommend this, the problem is that something else may try to use your stderr, including another thread or a broken fatal error exit function that tries to write diagnostics to stderr and then _exits
18:16:54 <shachaf> b_jonas: I'm fine with a different interface.
18:17:15 <shachaf> In fact I would prefer to have the core API not depend on stdio, so it's usable in more contexts.
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18:22:41 <b_jonas> shachaf, int-e: mostly fmemopen is for reading, open_memstream is for writing. 
18:26:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: perl and python let you just fdopen in such a way that it doesn't close the underlying fd when you close the fh. they work differently: perl uses refcounting and closes when you close the last fh, python lets you explicitly choose at open time, but for stderr this distinction is irrelevant. libc doesn't have such an interface for FILE*, but in gnu libc you can implement one from the general 
18:26:14 <b_jonas> custom FILE creation functions. libstdc++ is similar: no builtin, but you can create a custom outputstream. in both cases, the library handles the buffering, and you effectively implement the write function, not the fwrite function.
18:31:52 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> It's just this does things like indenting by printing a bunch of spaces in a loop, and it's not great to have each one be a system call." => but the libc has printf("%.*s%s\n", (int)indent_count, "", line); for that, and that will not flush until the end
18:32:26 <shachaf> Yes, int-e mentioned that and I'm using it now.
18:32:54 <arseniiv> I’m worried that set-theoretic representation of partitions needs to explicitly forbid empty sets in them. Am I too far gone?
18:34:36 <b_jonas> well technically it's printf("%.s%s\n", (int)(unsigned)(indent_count < 0 ? 0 : indent_count), "", line); so that if you try to indent by more than two gigacolumns you get incorrect indentation instead of undefined behavior, but details.
18:35:58 <b_jonas> no sorry, make that just printf("%.s%s\n", (int)(unsigned)indent_count, "", line); 
18:40:37 <b_jonas> "Well, it's silly for an API to use malloc if it doesn't need to." => this is for printing a --help machine. it's not a problem to use malloc for that, as long as you give a compilation option to just omit that entire feature
18:45:20 <shachaf> Well, you might be using it on a platform without malloc.
18:46:44 <esowiki> [[STOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75117&oldid=51984 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) cats
18:48:17 <esowiki> [[Glutton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75118&oldid=73148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) cat /* Processed Ingredients */
18:51:25 <esowiki> [[Cbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75119&oldid=36339 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */ cats
18:52:19 <zzo38> I have used open_memstream, and there is also the SQLite functions like sqlite3_str_new which don't use the file interface but it can be used for a similar purpose. I also implemented straccum and strfunish in PostScript which is similar and it does use a file interface, like open_memstream in C does. Also, another way if you still need to keep the file descriptor open in C might be to duplicate it (although the effect is not quite the
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20:15:24 <esowiki> [[MiniBitMove]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75120&oldid=51866 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+430) 
20:15:50 <esowiki> [[MiniBitMove]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75121&oldid=75120 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) header /* Commands */
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20:19:44 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75122&oldid=53652 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) 
20:20:16 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75123&oldid=53648 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) link
20:23:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Noit o' mnain worb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75124&oldid=34953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) unsigned
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20:48:19 <esowiki> [[Dirst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75125&oldid=40971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* External resources */ see also
20:48:45 <esowiki> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75126&oldid=70683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ see also
20:49:13 <esowiki> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75127&oldid=75126 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat
20:50:00 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75128&oldid=75107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Cat program for 1 char */ cat
20:50:23 <esowiki> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75129&oldid=75127 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* See also */ uf
20:50:36 <esowiki> [[Dirst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75130&oldid=75125 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* See also */ uf
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22:08:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Feet2picture *  New user account
22:13:08 <zzo38> What is the algorithm for cangjie rendering?
22:15:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75131&oldid=75115 * Feet2picture * (+273) /* Introductions */
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22:43:25 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75132&oldid=74548 * ZippyMagician * (-182) Separate basic and advanced programs
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23:51:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75133&oldid=75132 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Implementations */

2020-07-04:

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00:38:15 <b_jonas> you know how I still find the term "ground water" funny, because there's no way you can grind water to a fine powder. (xkcd makes the opposite point about ground beef.) well, today I found out there were such things as organ grinders. and no, those weren't like meat grinders used to grind liver.
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01:39:45 <Cale> b_jonas: They usually had a crank like one though
01:44:26 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75134 * Feet2picture * (+3691) Talks about C-Hex, teaches you how to use it to!
01:44:45 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75135&oldid=75134 * Feet2picture * (+1) /* =Structure */
01:48:03 <b_jonas> Cale: no, as far as I understand the organ grinder is the human operating and driving the organ, so the human doesn't have a crank]\
01:48:32 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75136&oldid=75135 * Feet2picture * (+35) /* HOW TO CODE IN IT */
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02:07:57 <Cale> b_jonas: Well, he turns the crank, similarly to someone who is grinding meat.
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03:37:41 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75137&oldid=73304 * TwilightSparkle * (+145) 
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05:13:27 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75138&oldid=72886 * Feet2picture * (+54) /* General languages */
05:14:44 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75139&oldid=75136 * Feet2picture * (-9) /* HOW TO CODE IN IT */
05:17:31 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75140&oldid=75139 * Feet2picture * (+2) /* C-Hex */
05:37:36 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75141&oldid=75140 * Feet2picture * (+508) /* Examples */
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07:51:05 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75142&oldid=61022 * A * (+30) /* Brevity */
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10:26:03 <int-e> `"
10:26:06 <HackEso> 1/1:135) <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name?  <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
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12:14:29 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75143&oldid=75114 * DmilkaSTD * (+77) 
12:27:34 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75144&oldid=75093 * DmilkaSTD * (+8) 
12:34:01 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75145&oldid=75144 * DmilkaSTD * (+200) -hybrid instrs,+note doc
12:35:38 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75146&oldid=75142 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) 
12:37:22 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75147&oldid=75141 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) cats, hdr
12:38:26 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75148&oldid=75147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Examples */ fix::cat() & 2020
12:41:13 <esowiki> [[Weirdlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75149&oldid=45736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* On the terms Weird and Esoteric */ cats
12:41:53 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75150&oldid=75143 * DmilkaSTD * (+17) 
12:44:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75151&oldid=34415 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) wayback
12:49:06 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75152&oldid=75150 * DmilkaSTD * (+31) 
12:51:12 <esowiki> [[Template:Wayback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75153&oldid=45228 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) close tag
12:52:51 <esowiki> [[Q-Ref]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75154&oldid=13464 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) cat + tt
12:53:08 <esowiki> [[Q-Ref]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75155&oldid=75154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) queue link
12:54:43 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75156&oldid=75152 * DmilkaSTD * (+71) 
12:55:45 <b_jonas> [ 148*351.17
12:55:46 <j-bot> b_jonas: 51973.2
12:57:05 <esowiki> [[Verbose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75157&oldid=47355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) 
12:58:57 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75158&oldid=74950 * DmilkaSTD * (+33) 
13:00:26 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75159&oldid=74856 * DmilkaSTD * (+63) fix
13:05:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75160&oldid=69054 * DmilkaSTD * (+2) 
13:05:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75161&oldid=75160 * DmilkaSTD * (+42) 
13:07:56 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75162&oldid=75109 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-28) /* Name ideas (using Writeover) */
13:14:27 <esowiki> [[Andrew's Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75163&oldid=21397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) /* Conclusion */ cats
13:14:42 <esowiki> [[Andrew's Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75164&oldid=75163 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) var pipe: nil
13:15:21 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75165&oldid=55479 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) gramar++
13:16:51 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75166&oldid=75165 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) gramar+=2;
13:17:37 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75167&oldid=75156 * DmilkaSTD * (+12) 
13:18:55 <esowiki> [[Seeker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75168&oldid=75166 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) gram mar+=3;
13:20:38 <esowiki> [[ight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75169&oldid=62881 * DmilkaSTD * (+43) +categors
13:20:53 <esowiki> [[Andrew's Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75170&oldid=75164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) wip, you say?
13:28:35 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75171&oldid=75167 * DmilkaSTD * (+79) 
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13:32:30 <esowiki> [[Parnassus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75172&oldid=25116 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) +stub
13:33:26 <esowiki> [[Sonata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75173&oldid=20295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) cat ++ bold ++ links
13:34:12 <esowiki> [[Sonata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75174&oldid=75173 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Turing completeness */ cats
13:35:20 <esowiki> [[Anemone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75175&oldid=50355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) cat ** misc
13:36:34 <esowiki> [[Print Function Deluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75176&oldid=69250 * DmilkaSTD * (+45) 
13:37:55 <esowiki> [[Print Function Deluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75177&oldid=75176 * DmilkaSTD * (+23) 
13:40:46 <esowiki> [[C--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75178&oldid=71450 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) +stub
13:48:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75179&oldid=75162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228) 
13:52:26 <esowiki> [[Earfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75180&oldid=67088 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) cats + depipe
13:53:23 <esowiki> [[B sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75181&oldid=72943 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) cats
13:53:32 <esowiki> [[B sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75182&oldid=75181 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* See also */ fix cat
13:54:08 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75183&oldid=73377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
13:54:52 <esowiki> [[Earfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75184&oldid=75180 * DmilkaSTD * (+101) 
13:57:29 <esowiki> [[IBC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75185&oldid=72946 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) /* Turing-completeness */ cats
13:57:56 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75186&oldid=73423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) back
14:05:04 <esowiki> [[Ni]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75187&oldid=74813 * DmilkaSTD * (-23) 
14:07:26 <esowiki> [[Pepe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75188&oldid=58917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) stub
14:07:56 <esowiki> [[C--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75189&oldid=75178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
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14:34:28 <esowiki> [[DROL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75190&oldid=51990 * DmilkaSTD * (+67) 
14:35:11 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75191&oldid=75171 * DmilkaSTD * (+10) 
14:39:01 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75192&oldid=75148 * Feet2picture * (+489) 
14:39:33 <esowiki> [[BytePusher II]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75193&oldid=73849 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
14:41:52 <esowiki> [[ByteMover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75194&oldid=39956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold
14:42:13 <esowiki> [[Ikkljoup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75195&oldid=37366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
14:43:05 <esowiki> [[Auo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75196&oldid=40948 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* External resources */
14:56:42 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75197&oldid=75191 * DmilkaSTD * (+287) 
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15:12:17 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75198&oldid=75197 * DmilkaSTD * (+78) 
15:13:43 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75199&oldid=75198 * DmilkaSTD * (+16) 
15:23:38 <esowiki> [[DROL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75200&oldid=75190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:26:23 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75201&oldid=70215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:27:04 <esowiki> [[Entropy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75202&oldid=41717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Drunk Eliza */
15:32:06 <esowiki> [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75203&oldid=66294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) cas
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15:32:55 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, I've finished writing some programs for it
15:33:10 <kspalaiologos> I put it through my obfuscator and the package is downloadable from my website
15:33:18 <kspalaiologos> http://kspalaiologos.now.im/doc/contest.zip - if you're feeling like it, you can give it a shot
15:33:59 <kspalaiologos> there are two binaries, the 3KB one has more obfuscated operations and a bit simpler control flow, while the 2nd one has a heavily obfuscated control flow and quite plain operations
15:34:20 <kspalaiologos> overall they're quite small, with the 1st one barely hitting the 1,7KB mark
15:34:23 <esowiki> [[Logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75204&oldid=57001 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* See also */ cats + *
15:34:37 <esowiki> [[Logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75205&oldid=75204 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* See also */ str.lower()
15:34:39 <kspalaiologos> I changed stuff around to my liking and engineered a 24-byte cat for it
15:36:30 <esowiki> [[Log]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75206&oldid=68183 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Syntax */
15:39:27 <esowiki> [[Log]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75207&oldid=75206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* XNOR */ how this self modifying?
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15:48:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75211&oldid=74922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) /* Computational class */
15:48:41 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75212&oldid=75211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) /* Others */ p
15:51:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: for UM-32? and you call it "contest.zip" like there's only one good contest esolang?
15:53:03 <kspalaiologos> no, it's just my entry
15:53:05 <kspalaiologos> for the contest
15:53:17 <b_jonas> for what contest?
15:53:22 <kspalaiologos> organised at esolangs server
15:53:28 <kspalaiologos> lemme paste over the desc
15:53:30 <b_jonas> huh... do you have a link?
15:53:38 <kspalaiologos> I'll send later
15:53:47 <b_jonas> thanks
15:53:54 <kspalaiologos> reverse-engineering contests: given a bug-less interpreter, try to understand the underlying language and write a simple program in it (fizzbuzz maybe? hello world? cat?)
15:53:54 <kspalaiologos> The interpreter author has to write the sample beforehand and release it after the contest is over
15:54:24 <b_jonas> that reminds me. can we finally change the wiki featured language? 
15:54:53 <kspalaiologos> I propose asm2bfd.
15:54:56 <kspalaiologos> *asm2bf
15:55:36 <b_jonas> so you wrote two obfuscated interpreters for the same language?
15:58:50 <int-e> just use public key crypto
15:59:12 <int-e> (nobody said it would have to be a fair challenge)
15:59:46 <b_jonas> heh
16:00:01 <b_jonas> as in code signing
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16:09:45 <arseniiv> did you know that if you define multiplication on C² as (z, w) ⋅ (z′, w′) = (z z′ ± w w′*, z w′ + w z′*) then you get quaternions in the − case (this is the usual Cayley—Dickson construction) or the full Clifford algebra of the euclidean plane in the + case?
16:11:52 <arseniiv> my target was the last one, as I knew C is isomorphic to the even subalgebra of that (H is also an even subalgebra, but for 3D euclidean Clifford algebra, and now you can start suspecting something), but I also accidentally rediscovered you get H when you simply change sign
16:14:32 <arseniiv> the construction is in fact very basic: you just take C and add an element i′ such that i i′ = −i′ i (in other words, z i′ = i′ z*), and when i′² = +1 then that’ll get you Cl(2, 0, R) and if i′² = −1 (and we can think of it as j or e. g. k) that’ll deliver you H
16:15:18 <arseniiv> (and that sign in the multiplication definition above is precisely the sign of i′²)
16:16:14 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, yes
16:16:17 <arseniiv> so in the end you may use pairs of complex numbers to represent reflections and all that, not only rotations and scalings
16:16:18 <b_jonas> you know how in IEEE floating point numbers, -0 is the additive identity, more so than 0? so when someone mentions 0 in some unfamiliar number system, you should think of it as the value you get from x-x for almost any x, as opposed to think of it as the additive identity
16:16:21 <kspalaiologos> first one compiled with other obfuscation and compiler settings
16:16:31 <kspalaiologos> check the readme
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17:52:27 <esowiki> [[Useless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75220&oldid=75219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ unused
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17:56:16 <esowiki> [[Autopsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75224&oldid=58595 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) pipe->destroy!
17:58:36 <esowiki> [[Simplified Circuit Diagram]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75225&oldid=49684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) cats + (code -> pre)
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18:04:14 <arseniiv> do you know something (a book, a book-like website) good teaching SQL? A friend asked and I don’t have any bibliography on it
18:07:49 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, so, any ideas?
18:08:01 <kspalaiologos> how would you rate the difficulty
18:08:09 <kspalaiologos> and which binary is harder to wrap your head around
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18:16:31 <kspalaiologos> I wonder, is there a random assembly code generator somewhere
18:24:15 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sorry, writing programs in esoteric languages isn't really my thing
18:24:23 <kspalaiologos> no, no
18:24:25 <kspalaiologos> I didn't mean this
18:24:36 <kspalaiologos> I just wanted to know did you take a look in a reverse engineering tool at the binaries
18:24:40 <b_jonas> and if I want to reverse engineer bad code, I just look at the stuff I maintain at work
18:24:46 <b_jonas> I don't do it for pleasure
18:24:47 <kspalaiologos> lul
18:25:00 <b_jonas> I'm not a malware research expert or security expert
18:25:01 <kspalaiologos> the output of my obfuscator is way worse than your colleagues' whatever
18:25:24 <kspalaiologos> I devoured hundreds of zines from my archives
18:25:24 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: no no, the output of your obfuscator is usually correct, so I don't have to touch it
18:25:35 <b_jonas> my coworkers code has random inconsistent bugs in it, and it has to be replaced
18:25:42 <kspalaiologos> the quality is worse than a BASIC programmer's spaghetti
18:25:47 <kspalaiologos> lol
18:25:52 <kspalaiologos> which language is it?
18:25:58 <b_jonas> I reverse engineer to find out what it was supposed to do, not for what it's doing
18:26:10 <kspalaiologos> hahaha
18:26:11 <kspalaiologos> okay
18:26:12 <b_jonas> it's Siemens GUI nonsense
18:26:19 <kspalaiologos> C?
18:26:23 <b_jonas> industrial stuff
18:26:25 <kspalaiologos> if it's C, then it's especially painful
18:26:28 <b_jonas> has a little C in it too
18:26:43 <kspalaiologos> but, giving a few features
18:26:51 <kspalaiologos> my obfuscator has well over 500 different transformers
18:27:09 <kspalaiologos> it requires a skilled assembly programmer to operate it, because it's still quite a requiring process to go through
18:27:26 <kspalaiologos> it has a polymorphic meta-engine
18:27:32 <b_jonas> that sounds terrible
18:27:32 <kspalaiologos> call hiding
18:27:45 <kspalaiologos> code structure mangling
18:27:55 <kspalaiologos> Ghidra literally fails to do anything with the binary
18:28:04 <kspalaiologos> it can also optimize and shrink binaries
18:28:20 <kspalaiologos> the original was 5KB on release full on size; while compiled on speed and packed it's 3KB
18:28:28 <kspalaiologos> and compiled on size and optimized it's 1,5KB
18:28:35 <kspalaiologos> the performance loss is marginal
18:28:50 <kspalaiologos> I went rogue for two weeks and wrote it around December last year
18:29:21 <kspalaiologos> the packed executables have a detection rate (false positives) of 1-4/72
18:29:55 <kspalaiologos> it also bundles some inlined intrisic functions
18:30:01 <kspalaiologos> that Visual C doesn't inline for whatever reason
18:30:21 <kspalaiologos> it can unwrap malloc/realloc/free calls into HeapAlloc/HeapRealloc etc
18:30:36 <kspalaiologos> so the dependency on the C runtime is really not a thing
18:30:57 <kspalaiologos> it can also do switch table mangling (literally every tool I tested for disassembly or decompilation has failed on this)
18:32:29 <kspalaiologos> there are a couple of disadvantages - you need to make a preset for every release (id est, review 500 checkboxes and comboboxes and other dialog popups regarding obfuscation, optimization and shrinking)
18:33:01 <kspalaiologos> and it sometimes produces crashing code, so I'm doing unit tests all the time and improving the transformers to be less aggressive if not desired
18:33:33 <kspalaiologos> I also wrote such a tool for Java, and I considered writing one for Lua to first mangle the Lua source code, then build it using luac, strip symbols and then obfuscate it on the assembly level
18:33:54 <kspalaiologos> cracking, reverse-engineering and malware is just my thing :p, especially malware analysis
18:34:05 <kspalaiologos> I have 100GB of malware samples on my PC
18:34:18 <zzo38> arseniiv: I just read the documentation of the database software to learn SQL. (In my case, I use SQLite; maybe you use something else)
18:37:43 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: 100 GB of malware samples? 
18:37:44 <b_jonas> that sounds crazy
18:38:22 <kspalaiologos> yes
18:38:31 <kspalaiologos> DOS, Windows, Linux, MacOS, Symbian
18:38:38 <kspalaiologos> I have malware for most platforms
18:38:42 <kspalaiologos> I think I have some for 6502 computers
18:38:58 <kspalaiologos> there's also a lot of disassemblies I did, source code leaks
18:39:17 <kspalaiologos> but I'm a bit selfish and I'm not willing to share my malware :p
18:39:35 <kspalaiologos> but, if someone really wants... :d
18:40:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:C-Hex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75227 * Feet2picture * (+15) Created page with "DISCUSSION PAGE"
18:40:16 <b_jonas> no thanks, I don't want 100 GB of malware
18:40:24 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: do you do that for work?
18:40:27 <kspalaiologos> malware is lovely
18:40:33 <kspalaiologos> I wish I could work with malware
18:40:46 <kspalaiologos> I'm a poor student, what else can I do
18:40:52 <zzo38> I have the code for a computer virus of thirteen bytes:  35 00 3C 41 87 F2 CD 21 93 B4 40 CD 21
18:40:57 <kspalaiologos> I earn by writing assignments for people
18:41:09 <kspalaiologos> zzo38, I made a MBR overwriting trojan with a graphical payload in 86 bytes
18:41:51 <kspalaiologos> ugh what did I just witness
18:41:55 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't mean malware specifically, but reverse engineering in general
18:41:58 <b_jonas> `? kspalaiologos 
18:42:00 <HackEso> kspalaiologos is a brainfuck addict and a late night Perl hacker. He's secretly disassembling brainfuck code for a casino that lost the source code. Apparently knows the secret of Malbolge.
18:42:06 <kspalaiologos> I wish I could work with RE
18:42:07 <arseniiv> zzo38: thanks! I used SQLite a bit and read its docs, yeah, though I don’t think that’d be a friendly introductory read :)
18:42:08 <b_jonas> the casino brainfuck disassembly counts
18:42:19 <kspalaiologos> or sell my obfuscators
18:43:05 <kspalaiologos> sigh I need to run this virus, because it's not obvious at first what does it do
18:43:24 <zzo38> arseniiv: Well, I don't know, but at least I found it suitable.
18:43:30 <kspalaiologos> I see a file write
18:43:51 <kspalaiologos> does it like, overwrite command.com or something?
18:43:52 <kspalaiologos> interesting
18:44:27 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: now you have 100000013 bytes of malware
18:44:32 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> no thanks, I don't want 100 GB of malware => I bet at least half of it is a single virus written in Malbolge
18:44:38 <kspalaiologos> kek
18:44:50 <arseniiv> I knew you’d like that :D
18:44:55 <kspalaiologos> sure I would
18:45:09 <kspalaiologos> ugh it seems like I'm out of VMs
18:45:18 <kspalaiologos> I nuked all my VMs before, I need to install DOS
18:46:08 <arseniiv> zzo38: anyways that’s a good advice in general, I’d say
18:46:32 <b_jonas> perhaps it's one of those barely portable malware that work only with a specific old version of DOS
18:46:46 <kspalaiologos> no
18:46:49 <b_jonas> and only if you sys a floppy disk first thing you do
18:46:49 <kspalaiologos> I see the source code
18:46:59 <kspalaiologos> I'm 90% sure it pulls filename from the RAM
18:47:02 <kspalaiologos> within the first instruction
18:47:04 <kspalaiologos> opens the file
18:47:06 <kspalaiologos> and then truncates it
18:47:17 <kspalaiologos> I just have no idea which file is it
18:47:27 <kspalaiologos>  // typing :wq! in MS-DOS edit was a brainfart
18:50:01 <kspalaiologos> yeah, int21h AH=3Ch is file open/truncate
18:50:09 <kspalaiologos> AL=0x00 it was set for whatever reason
18:50:18 <kspalaiologos> xor usage seems dubious here too
18:50:32 <kspalaiologos> inc cx => creates a readonly file
18:50:41 <kspalaiologos> xchg si, di => ??
18:50:50 <kspalaiologos> then it does int21h ah=0x40
18:50:56 <kspalaiologos> and this is file write
18:51:11 <b_jonas> "for whatever reason" => it's set because loading a two-byte constant to AX is three bytes, loading a one-byte constant to AH is three bytes, so it's usually free to set AX together
18:51:27 <kspalaiologos> there is no need to
18:51:30 <kspalaiologos> because AL ain't used
18:52:29 <kspalaiologos> xor ax,0x3c00 is 35 00 3c
18:52:39 <kspalaiologos> mov ah,0x3c is b43c
18:52:42 <kspalaiologos> it's one byte shorter
18:53:06 <b_jonas> hmm
18:53:15 <b_jonas> ok sorry I'm just stupid
18:53:55 <b_jonas> maybe it just wants to confuse antivirus tools that quickly look for MOV AH stuff 
18:54:03 <kspalaiologos> may it be
18:54:50 <kspalaiologos> huh what
18:54:52 <kspalaiologos> it's not a trojan
18:54:57 <kspalaiologos> it just displays random gibberish for hell knows what reason
18:55:30 <kspalaiologos> system is intact
18:56:05 <kspalaiologos> my 2-byte virus is better: FAF4
18:56:37 <kspalaiologos> it will just wait for NMI
18:56:44 <kspalaiologos> more malicious version is EBFE
18:56:48 <kspalaiologos> id est, `jmp $'
18:58:24 <kspalaiologos> it doesn't work, because it tries to read the filename from ds:dx, which points to ds:0000
18:58:33 <kspalaiologos> in my case, it was some random gibberish
18:58:40 <kspalaiologos> the file open fails with code ax=05h
18:59:39 <kspalaiologos> it tries then to open file 05h
18:59:41 <kspalaiologos> and overwrite it
19:00:37 <kspalaiologos> and it just so happened that in my memory later there is push cs/pop ds/mov dx,256f/mov ax,0900/int21h, which displayed the gibberish
19:01:03 <kspalaiologos> because, unsurprisingly, this program isn't meant to terminate
19:04:49 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ds:0000 is the start of the PSP which always has an executable instruction, I don't know how you'd find a filename there
19:05:06 <kspalaiologos> it's CS:000
19:05:09 <kspalaiologos> not DS
19:05:29 <kspalaiologos> when you load a DOS com executable, the offset is CS:0100
19:05:38 <kspalaiologos> because before, starting with CS:0000, there is the PSP
19:05:40 <b_jonas> this is a com file, CS and DS point to the same place
19:05:45 <kspalaiologos> ah 
19:05:46 <kspalaiologos> well
19:05:46 <kspalaiologos> yes
19:05:48 <kspalaiologos> brainfart
19:06:02 <kspalaiologos> I don't know where would you take the filename from too
19:06:10 <kspalaiologos> hence the virus is screwed and doesn't work
19:06:12 <kspalaiologos> another piece of crap
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19:20:18 <zzo38> Maybe it isn't meant to be the entire program, but something put into another program? I don't know.
19:24:29 <kspalaiologos> it seems like random assembly code
19:24:53 <kspalaiologos> honestly, I was wondering, how could I somehow procedurally generate correctly-decompiling assembly code
19:25:07 <kspalaiologos> because this would be a game changer for my obfuscator, a little bit
19:25:20 <kspalaiologos> without going through all opcodes and other boring stuff
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19:28:38 <zzo38> I don't know
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21:07:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75244&oldid=75235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Mirrors */
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21:17:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75248&oldid=75247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+139) /* Characters */
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23:51:27 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75249&oldid=63137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Do
23:52:04 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75250&oldid=63124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Cat and back

2020-07-05:

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00:36:08 <esowiki> [[Lo'reran]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75251&oldid=34488 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) 
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01:55:39 <b_jonas> [ 32*12*0.0256
01:55:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 9.8304
01:58:16 <b_jonas> `ftoc 72
01:58:17 <HackEso> 72.00°F = 22.22°C
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02:35:49 <zzo38> Why does Safari keep trying to request favicon.ico with every request even though the response is 410? Shouldn't it cache the response (whether 200 or 410)?
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07:31:08 <Taneb> zzo38: that seems like a bug in Safari
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07:39:34 <int-e> blasphemy
08:05:04 <esowiki> [[Triangular]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75252&oldid=66199 * DmilkaSTD * (+68) 
08:06:25 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75253&oldid=75145 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) gram mar+=4;
08:17:09 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75254&oldid=75253 * DmilkaSTD * (+286) 
08:18:29 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75255&oldid=75254 * DmilkaSTD * (+147) 
08:27:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75256&oldid=75009 * DmilkaSTD * (+876) 
08:39:35 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75257&oldid=75255 * DmilkaSTD * (+34) 
08:40:15 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75258&oldid=75257 * DmilkaSTD * (+75) 
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09:48:00 <zzo38> Now I think I got the line breaking in TeXnicard to work properly. (Although, maybe there are still a few mistakes and/or missing stuff, I don't know.) (Also, there are some other features that I would intend to add in future, such as "sections".)
10:07:36 <esowiki> [[UM8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75259 * Palaiologos * (+335) Created page with "UM8 is a virtual machine created by [[User:Palaiologos]] for the Esolang reverse-engineering contest. As the contest hasn't finished yet, the specification hasn't been publish..."
10:10:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75260&oldid=75256 * DmilkaSTD * (+438) 
10:12:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75261&oldid=75260 * DmilkaSTD * (+239) 
10:16:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75262&oldid=75261 * DmilkaSTD * (+103) 
10:22:30 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75263&oldid=75199 * DmilkaSTD * (-18) 
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11:01:10 <int-e> Pfft. https://mobile.twitter.com/anishgiri/status/1279716938143457281 "Why not mate in 1?" - "Because there's stuff I wanna do."
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11:27:16 <Arcorann> I remember reading about a computer chess match from about 1970 where one of the participants had a mate in one but instead of taking it shuffled its kings around. Meanwhile the opponent ended up promoting one of its pawns
11:43:17 <Arcorann> It was COKO III vs. Genie, ACM 1971 --> https://www.chessprogramming.org/Coko#Mate_in_one.3F
11:45:13 <Arcorann> https://lichess.org/aooMurBn <-- here it is on Lichess
11:45:32 <Arcorann> (link courtesy of TVTropes)
11:48:55 <esowiki> [[UM8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75264&oldid=75259 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) stub + cat
11:53:16 <esowiki> [[C+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75265&oldid=51933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) cats + rmbr + fact
11:54:39 <int-e> turns out I have a pgn viewer
11:54:44 <int-e> cute game
11:54:56 <int-e> must've been frustrating to the operators
11:55:18 <esowiki> [[Mugh brains]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75266&oldid=18217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) lower, cats, bold, ns notice
11:58:28 <esowiki> [[Triangular]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75267&oldid=75252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-47) 
12:05:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75268&oldid=75248 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+179) /* Infinite loops */
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12:11:55 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75269&oldid=75268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+633) /* Object movement */
12:14:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75270&oldid=75269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+213) /* Nondeterminism in paths */
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12:42:43 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75271&oldid=75270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5283) Blanked the page
12:43:10 <esowiki> [[Objects In Mirror Are Heavier Than They Appear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5269) add OIMAHTTA
12:43:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75273&oldid=75028 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* O */ + [[Objects In Mirror Are Heavier Than They Appear]]
12:45:05 <esowiki> [[Paranoid Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75274&oldid=40754 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) cats()()
12:46:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75275&oldid=75033 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) /* Languages */ add oimahtta
12:49:07 <esowiki> [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75276&oldid=69305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) add example
12:51:01 <esowiki> [[Unnecessary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75277&oldid=73754 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* External resources */ catw
12:53:43 <esowiki> [[Esoteric data structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75278&oldid=64491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) lower + seealso
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12:54:38 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75279&oldid=73003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* 2038 */ tt
12:59:08 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75280&oldid=75279 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) confuse
13:01:03 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75281&oldid=72999 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) links+no_cdlstmt+cats
13:03:08 <esowiki> [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75282&oldid=71111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* External resources */ not bf && is tc
13:05:14 <esowiki> [[OIL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75283&oldid=51081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) edit summary
13:41:28 <arseniiv> I see now cyclotomic fields should be pretty comfortable to work with. For representing Q[√2], one can optimize away 8 rationals to just two (a coefficient for 1 and a coefficient for (exp(iτ/8) + exp(−iτ/8)) as is with the straightforward constructible representation. Merging two fields is also very easy for cyclotomics, just take LCM. But how to find sqrt(x) (and a new field for it)?
13:42:10 <rain1> cyclotomics are really "nice"
13:42:41 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_group_of_integers_modulo_n the galois group is always this
13:42:52 <rain1> often cyclic
13:48:04 <esowiki> [[Fold]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75284&oldid=62051 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) (hdr + cats + unpipe)()
13:49:42 <esowiki> [[Fold]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75285&oldid=75284 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Minimal Examples */ cat
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13:58:14 <esowiki> [[Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75286&oldid=74095 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Special variables */
13:59:05 <esowiki> [[Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75287&oldid=75286 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Truth-machine */ cat
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14:29:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv: how would it be 8 rationals otherwise?
14:29:51 <b_jonas> I mean you can't just change the dimension of a finite dimensional vector field
14:30:45 <b_jonas> cyclotomic fields might be nice but I don't think they help for such a simple case as Q[sqrt(2)] 
14:31:19 <rain1> no, another interesting set of fields is the nth roots of primes
14:31:27 <rain1> they are non-galois extensions
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14:31:38 <rain1> but paired with an nth root of unity you have a galois ext. again
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14:35:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75288&oldid=73702 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) rdr
14:36:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75289&oldid=73583 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Syntax */
14:38:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75290&oldid=75289 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+200) cats & psdw
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14:50:01 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75291&oldid=74977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2282) rm o, add #s
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15:10:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I mean, when one doesn’t know the exact dimension of Q_n over Q, one just can take n rationals and compute, though equality and several other things will be more complex than they should be
15:14:03 <arseniiv> and this way is even necessary sometimes, I heard there are modules where you don’t have a basis but you can take some linearly dependent systems in its place
15:14:31 <arseniiv> of course that’s why we love fields over rings
15:15:18 <arseniiv> “over” not in mathematical sense
15:15:39 <arseniiv> I wouldn’t even know what field over a ring would be
15:16:15 <arseniiv> that may be outright nonsentical
15:24:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75292&oldid=75243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2713) 
15:26:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75293&oldid=75292 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2713) Undo revision 75292 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) too long
15:36:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75294&oldid=75271 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+253) 
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16:15:08 <esowiki> [[J--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75295&oldid=59014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) rm ln & +cats
16:22:02 <myname> for a moment i thought J-- was a reduced version of J :(
16:22:36 <kspalaiologos> hm
16:22:41 <kspalaiologos> writing a subset of J would be fun
16:23:50 <myname> also, that j-- looks boring
16:24:05 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75296&oldid=58869 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Syntax */ grm
16:24:42 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75297&oldid=75296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Syntax */ rm word
16:26:28 <b_jonas> maybe it's java without turing-complete generics
16:27:46 <b_jonas> no... it's java without classes. that's weird
16:28:46 <myname> and some arbitrary substitutes. and a weird stdlib
16:30:27 <esowiki> [[Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75298&oldid=18107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 
16:30:50 <myname> replacing "public static" with "fn" completely misses the point. it looks like it was made by someone that dislikes javas verboseness without actually understanding it
16:32:09 <esowiki> [[Compiler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75299&oldid=13630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
16:32:34 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75300&oldid=71457 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
16:37:36 <esowiki> [[()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75301&oldid=68448 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) cat, pre
16:39:17 <esowiki> [[Unlambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75302&oldid=66667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Palindromes */ d e a d
16:43:13 <lucky> Hey folks, if I'm sketching out ideas for a subleq hardware implementation, would the wiki be an appropriate place for that (at least when it comes to the programming/machine interface side of it)? 
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18:33:00 <b_jonas> `? cake
18:33:02 <HackEso> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
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18:57:54 <esowiki> [[User:Feet2picture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75304 * Feet2picture * (+47) Created page with "Creator of [[C-Hex]]. Pretty much everything..."
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20:19:41 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75305&oldid=74941 * Zzo38 * (+2963) Glulx
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20:43:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75306&oldid=75303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+551) 
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20:52:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75307&oldid=75306 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+441) /* Syntax */
21:09:05 <esowiki> [[Amnesia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75308&oldid=38977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) cat &&& wip
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21:15:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75309&oldid=75294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+414) 
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21:21:24 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75310&oldid=75305 * Zzo38 * (+1351) 
21:28:50 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75311&oldid=75310 * Zzo38 * (-70) 
21:29:45 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75312&oldid=75311 * Zzo38 * (-120) 
22:09:45 <arseniiv> fungot hi
22:09:45 <fungot> arseniiv: eval ( fnord...) body...)) f))) 0 3, 0
22:09:53 <arseniiv> wow
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23:41:54 <esowiki> [[Gray Snail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75313&oldid=40782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) at
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23:53:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75314&oldid=75309 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) Level 4

2020-07-06:

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00:41:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75315&oldid=75314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Level 5 */ cat ++ bF
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00:49:07 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75316&oldid=73954 * DmilkaSTD * (+27) +categories
00:51:30 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75317&oldid=75263 * DmilkaSTD * (+16) 
00:52:21 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75318&oldid=75192 * Feet2picture * (+236) 
00:52:58 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75319&oldid=75318 * Feet2picture * (-19) /* Indentation */
00:54:01 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75320&oldid=75319 * Feet2picture * (-27) /* Indentation */
00:56:07 <esowiki> [[Paintfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75321&oldid=43432 * DmilkaSTD * (-101) 
01:01:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75322&oldid=75258 * DmilkaSTD * (-42) yey finished, time to make compiler
01:03:41 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75323&oldid=75317 * DmilkaSTD * (+67) 
01:04:58 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75324&oldid=74389 * DmilkaSTD * (+99) 
01:06:36 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75325&oldid=75323 * DmilkaSTD * (+52) 
01:11:03 <esowiki> [[Sea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75326&oldid=75111 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) 
01:12:39 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75327&oldid=75320 * Feet2picture * (+157) 
01:13:00 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75328&oldid=75327 * Feet2picture * (+0) /* Interpreter */
01:14:16 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75329&oldid=75325 * DmilkaSTD * (+11) 
01:14:36 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75330&oldid=75329 * DmilkaSTD * (+6) 
01:17:11 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75331&oldid=75330 * DmilkaSTD * (-20) 
01:18:08 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75332&oldid=75331 * DmilkaSTD * (+79) 
01:18:45 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75333&oldid=75332 * DmilkaSTD * (+26) 
01:19:18 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75334&oldid=75333 * DmilkaSTD * (+4) 
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01:27:29 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75335&oldid=75334 * DmilkaSTD * (+30) 
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03:13:50 <int-e> @devils cat
03:13:52 <lambdabot> *** "cat" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
03:13:52 <lambdabot> CAT, n.  A soft, indestructible automaton provided by nature to be
03:13:52 <lambdabot> kicked when things go wrong in the domestic circle.
03:13:52 <lambdabot>  
03:13:52 <lambdabot>     This is a dog,
03:13:54 <lambdabot> [7 @more lines]
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04:36:16 <int-e> `"
04:36:18 <HackEso> 1/1:283) <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg  <crystal-cola> worlds biggest thumb \ 1168) <int-e> fungot has not done me any harm yet  <fungot> int-e: no niinku pl niinku fnord niinku fnord fnord fnord
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04:54:26 <shachaf> @@ @@ @where "
04:54:31 <lambdabot>  amstan says: best device i ever used, my nexus tablet is only an alarm clock now \ Cheshire says: Ruby is the same as Java
04:58:54 <zzo38> I think it is not the same?
05:03:49 <shachaf> Man, is there no way to do nonblocking reads on stdin when it's a tty device?
05:04:58 <zzo38> Maybe you have to switch it to noncanonical mode; I don't know
05:05:41 <shachaf> Even then reads are blocking, right?
05:06:11 <zzo38> Well, I think you can set reads to be nonblocking then
05:06:21 <shachaf> Is the thing people do to read one byte at a time, and poll between each byte?
05:06:28 <shachaf> You can?
05:07:03 <zzo38> I am not sure though; maybe I misremembered
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05:42:50 <int-e> @bot
05:42:58 <lambdabot> :)
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07:10:51 <esowiki> [[Pxem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75336&oldid=73328 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5) /* Others */
07:11:02 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75337&oldid=75336 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2) /* Others */
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07:23:51 <esowiki> [[Pxem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75338&oldid=75337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+457) 
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07:57:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75339&oldid=68625 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1470) /* List of candidates */
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08:07:04 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75340&oldid=75338 * YamTokTpaFa * (+16) 
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08:43:24 <esowiki> [[UM8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75341&oldid=75264 * Palaiologos * (+362) add ISA
09:21:14 <esowiki> [[UM8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75342&oldid=75341 * Palaiologos * (-2) formatting
09:26:06 <shachaf> `"
09:26:09 <HackEso> 1/1:733) <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED \ 1063) <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter
09:44:06 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75343 * Heavpoot * (+3503) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name= |paradigms=imperative |author=[[Heavpoot]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=-dimensional (wit..."
09:55:20 <esowiki> [[Heavpoot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75344 * Heavpoot * (+45) Created page with "you're probably looking for [[User:Heavpoot]]"
09:58:18 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75345 * Heavpoot * (+328) Created page with "[[User:Heavpoot]] is a humanoid entity which exists, and is corporeal, much like most members of this community. ==Languages made== * Various undocumented esolangs which will..."
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10:06:01 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75346&oldid=75343 * Heavpoot * (+213) 
10:06:30 <esowiki> [[Category:-dimensional languages]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75347 * Heavpoot * (+66) Created page with "Languages which have source code extending in infinite dimensions."
10:08:03 <esowiki> [[Category:-dimensional languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75348&oldid=75347 * Heavpoot * (+41) 
10:15:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75349 * Heavpoot * (+25) Created page with "communism good - Heavpoot"
10:23:57 <esowiki> [[UM8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75350&oldid=75342 * LyricLy * (-1) 
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10:35:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75351&oldid=74806 * Heavpoot * (+68) 
10:35:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
10:35:56 <esowiki> [[Category:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism! derivatives]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75352 * Heavpoot * (+88) Created page with "Languages closely related or inspired by [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]."
10:50:51 <int-e> argh
10:52:28 <shachaf> `"
10:52:30 <HackEso> 1/1:985) <boily> I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations. \ 1275) <int-e> I couldn't help thinking that maybe if one considers the ramifications in full detail it will turn out that overthinking is often not helpful and therefore, not something to be proud of.
11:01:17 <int-e> I guess the language page is funny, but it could do without adding two completely useless categories.
11:01:31 <kspalaiologos> what the hell is this
11:02:10 <int-e> Also not a fan of creating a pointer to a user page into the main namespace.
11:02:21 <int-e> s/creating/placing/
11:07:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75353&oldid=75351 * Int-e * (-68) Undo revision 75351 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- new categories should be discussed on [[Esolang:Categorization]]
11:08:09 <int-e> (unfortunately deleting categories needs admin powers)
11:10:05 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75354&oldid=75346 * Int-e * (-34) fix categories (new categories should be discussed on [[Esolang:Categorization]]
11:14:09 <int-e> Hmm will ais523 notice if we mention him here?
11:16:18 <int-e> Who else is there, actually. oerjan's been missing. fizzie probably has the power, but he's usually working more on the server side on things.
11:18:00 <int-e> cpressey, apparently. I wonder whether he even knows about that :)
11:36:56 <esowiki> [[Wimpmode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75355&oldid=13349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
11:41:10 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75356&oldid=75354 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) 
11:43:25 <esowiki> [[C-Hex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75357&oldid=75328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Errors */ Uni->I
11:44:28 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75358&oldid=75324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Syntax */ not all casesensitive langs need ALLCAPS
11:47:28 <esowiki> [[Baba is program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75359&oldid=74388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) nowiki::=pre
11:48:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75360&oldid=75349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) {{Selfbot}}
11:50:24 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm very unfamiliar with actually using the MediaWiki interface to do anything.
11:52:54 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75361&oldid=75316 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) link
11:53:42 <esowiki> [[Paintfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75362&oldid=75321 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) ]]
11:59:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75363&oldid=75307 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Cat program until EOF */
12:03:11 <esowiki> [[Stck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75364&oldid=66721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) hdr fix
12:04:33 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75365&oldid=62098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) link & bold
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12:42:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75366&oldid=75315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+886) 
12:42:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75367&oldid=75366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Commands */
12:42:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75368&oldid=75367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Computation class */
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12:44:30 <ais523> int-e: I noticed even without the ping; however, the ping made me come here to talk it through rather than just editing the wiki unilaterally
12:45:40 <int-e> Ah. Well, IM(not so)HO there's no added value in those two added categories, so there's no reason to keep them.
12:46:08 <ais523> my plan is to delete the two newly added categories, and anything else can be sorted out without admin powers
12:46:37 <int-e> how do you feel about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Heavpoot ?
12:46:54 <ais523> cross-namespace redirect, isn't it?
12:47:03 <ais523> albeit written out in words rather than automated
12:47:28 <int-e> (I don't like it but I guess there's no actual policy against it.)
12:47:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Category:-dimensional languages]]": unapproved category (see [[Esolang:Policy]])
12:47:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Category:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism! derivatives]]": unapproved category (see [[Esolang:Policy]])
12:48:15 <ais523> well it's in the wrong namespace
12:48:43 <ais523> it would have to be a page written about Heavpoot by someone else to be valid in the main namespace, and I'm not sure they're prolific enough for people to be likely to do that
12:49:09 <ais523> (compare https://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523 with https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ais523)
12:49:36 <Arcorann> Might as well just delete it (it's what I'd do)
12:50:05 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75369&oldid=75356 * Int-e * (+14) link directly to user page
12:50:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Heavpoot]]": cross-namespace (soft) redirect
12:55:17 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75370&oldid=75369 * Ais523 * (-9) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:30:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75371&oldid=75368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2064) 
13:30:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75372&oldid=75371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Commands */
13:30:43 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75373&oldid=75372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Commands */
13:30:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75374&oldid=75373 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Commands */
13:31:22 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75375&oldid=75374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Level 4 */
13:31:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75376&oldid=75375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Commands */
13:51:04 <esowiki> [[Fi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75377&oldid=69793 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) link + wip
14:02:36 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75378&oldid=75370 * Heavpoot * (-32) 
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14:50:42 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75379&oldid=73402 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) cats misc
14:51:33 <esowiki> [[Pendulum Instruction Set Architecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75380&oldid=68886 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Example */ link
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14:53:45 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75381&oldid=75376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) /* Level 3 */ comp class
14:54:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75382&oldid=75381 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) /* Computational class */
14:57:13 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75383&oldid=75382 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Level 3 */
15:06:55 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75384&oldid=75383 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+770) add level 6
15:07:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75385&oldid=75384 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Commands */
15:20:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75386&oldid=75385 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+703) /* Computational class */
15:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75387&oldid=75386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
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15:24:42 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75388&oldid=75387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5578) Blanked the page
15:24:51 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75389 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5597) add {}
15:25:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75390&oldid=75273 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Non-alphabetic */ + [[|{}]]
15:27:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75391&oldid=75275 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) /* Languages */
15:30:17 <esowiki> [[Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75392&oldid=72997 * B jonas * (-236) That statement about ayacc has been false for years now.
15:31:22 <esowiki> [[CASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75393&oldid=46649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) cats
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15:34:38 <arseniiv> if I make a hexagon with sides made by stacking 10k usual hexagons each, then the error of connecting the first edge to the last is 8.19597e-8, quite large and quite small at the same time
15:34:58 <arseniiv> that is with simple algorithms and using double precision
15:35:58 <arseniiv> this hexagon construction is the simplest test I could think of
15:36:39 <esowiki> [[Antonio Maschio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75394&oldid=43584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) way back
15:37:21 <arseniiv> ah, they are also randomly rotated, so the error may change a bit from run to run. If I would just translate them, the error would be of course smaller, but it wouldn’t be as useful to illustrate what would happen with real tesselations
15:39:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75395&oldid=75363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+157) /* Cat program until EOF */
15:39:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75396&oldid=75395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello World! */ outputTt
15:57:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Hakerh400 *  uploaded "[[File:Yume - unsolved puzzle.png]]": Yume - example of an unsolved puzzle.
15:58:53 <myname> why aren't those files linked?
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16:08:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hi
16:08:50 <b_jonas> hello
16:09:18 <arseniiv> double precision is both better and worse than I thought
16:10:41 <myname> in comparisson to single precision?
16:11:16 <arseniiv> hmm I hadn’t tried to calculate that thing in it but it should be definitely bad
16:11:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Hakerh400 *  uploaded "[[File:Yume - solved puzzle.png]]": Yume - an example of a solved puzzle.
16:14:29 <b_jonas> no, compared to what he tought
16:17:23 <arseniiv> I try to find a way to make points’ coordinates more accurate when new tiles glue to the old ones but I don’t see anything worthy. In the big hexagon case above, there would be only one interesting gluing at the very end, and even in this case I’m not sure I understand how to proceed. We could re-glue the last hexagon to the first, which definitely would be better, but then should we to continue with the same for another hexagons, 
16:17:23 <arseniiv> when do we stop?.. and do we just replace old points with new ones or make some arithmetic with both to equalize something? I’ve no idea
16:18:43 <arseniiv> when more than two tiles neighbor each other, the matter is even foggier
16:19:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Yume]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75399 * Hakerh400 * (+1326) game
16:20:09 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75400&oldid=74629 * Hakerh400 * (+31) /* Games */
16:20:59 <arseniiv> though 1e-8 is a pretty good accuracy and maybe no one wishes to generate tiling chunks of more than a thousand tiles
16:27:33 <arseniiv> also this is a pretty extreme error margin, as mostly people are interested in chunks without holes in them, either growing them by subdivision or carefully adding tiles at the border
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16:28:30 <arseniiv> this example shows that holes do matter, though, howewer little it may be for 10k tiles as circumference
16:28:44 <arseniiv> 60k*
16:36:41 <esowiki> [[!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75401&oldid=69471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) 
16:36:49 <esowiki> [[!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75402&oldid=75401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 
16:39:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75403&oldid=75396 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+144) /* Syntax */
16:44:21 <esowiki> [[Gummy Bear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75404&oldid=71416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) unpipe + link + catts
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17:06:59 <esowiki> [[Turi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75405&oldid=66942 * Osmarks * (+71) 
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19:01:03 <shachaf> `olist 1206
19:01:05 <HackEso> olist 1206: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
19:20:37 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75406&oldid=75358 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) true
19:22:02 <b_jonas> thanks
20:17:55 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, how can I split noun definition across lines
20:18:09 <kspalaiologos> like, I want to define for example `table =. 1 3 5'
20:18:13 <kspalaiologos> and I want to continue it on the next line
20:18:17 <kspalaiologos> `9 10 16'
20:18:18 <HackEso> 9? No such file or directory
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20:59:19 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: it might be better to ask that on #jsoftware
21:04:41 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75407&oldid=75405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) bold++cats+
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21:14:51 <esowiki> [[BitFlip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75408&oldid=8618 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) cats&tag
21:34:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Caenbe *  New user account
21:47:00 <esowiki> [[Rubic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75409 * Digital Hunter * (+5479) Created a page on an esolang I made this afternoon
21:48:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75410&oldid=75390 * Digital Hunter * (+12) /* R */ Added a new language
21:49:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75411&oldid=75131 * Caenbe * (+204) 
21:50:05 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75412&oldid=74507 * Digital Hunter * (+68) /* About me */
21:55:49 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75413&oldid=73652 * Digital Hunter * (+128) /* Surtic */
21:57:41 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75414&oldid=75413 * Digital Hunter * (+170) /* Rubic */ Added hello world in Rubic
21:58:00 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75415&oldid=75414 * Digital Hunter * (+2) /* Rubic */ oops
22:01:14 <esowiki> [[Synced]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75416 * ZippyMagician * (+3728) Initial Version of esolang
22:02:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rubic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75417 * Digital Hunter * (+159) Created page with "Feel free to leave questions here if anything is ambiguous. ~~~~"
22:03:06 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75418&oldid=74622 * ZippyMagician * (+185) Add more links and info
22:03:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75419&oldid=75410 * ZippyMagician * (+13) Add Synced
22:04:29 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75420&oldid=75419 * ZippyMagician * (+17) Add Transposed
22:22:57 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75421 * Emerald * (+161) Q project
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22:23:34 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75422&oldid=75421 * Emerald * (-4) Unlink
22:24:23 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75423&oldid=75422 * Emerald * (+13) 
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22:43:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75424&oldid=75340 * YamTokTpaFa * (-5) /* text2pxem.pl */
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23:31:08 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the largest number of spice girls there were at the same time?
23:31:09 <fungot> b_jonas: they are hiragana. so my solution always ends up with about 20 different fnord in your proof
23:39:18 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75425&oldid=75423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) Cats bike temps
23:39:32 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75426&oldid=75425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Add typo
23:40:19 <esowiki> [[Synced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75427&oldid=75416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Fibonacci Sequence */ link
23:41:18 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75428&oldid=75424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* References */ cat
23:43:41 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75429 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+219) Will add LaTeR
23:55:27 <esowiki> [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75430&oldid=75282 * Salpynx * (+23) P'' is related to bf, each article references the other

2020-07-07:

00:14:09 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75431 * Caenbe * (+1147) Created the page
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01:43:46 <int-e> Meh, Heavpoot undid all changes to the !lyricly☭demote☭establish☭communism! page?
01:47:23 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75432&oldid=75378 * Int-e * (+32) Undo revision 75378 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- reinstate cosmetic edits and category updates. Please respect the community!
01:57:45 <esowiki> [[Synced]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75433&oldid=75427 * ZippyMagician * (-240) Update comp class
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02:43:57 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75434&oldid=75431 * Caenbe * (+0) Small typo. r-z is 9 bits.
02:51:36 <esowiki> [[Synced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75435&oldid=75433 * ZippyMagician * (-6) Whoops, wrong comp class
02:53:14 <esowiki> [[Synced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75436&oldid=75435 * ZippyMagician * (+8) Clarify memsys
03:14:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Bangyen *  New user account
03:16:56 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75437 * ZippyMagician * (+1683) First version
03:18:11 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75438&oldid=75418 * ZippyMagician * (+82) Add link to ideas page
03:21:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75439&oldid=75411 * Bangyen * (+196) /* Introductions */
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04:21:03 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75440&oldid=75426 * Emerald * (+49) New sever
04:32:07 <esowiki> [[Factor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75441 * Bangyen * (+2792) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Factor |paradigms=Imperative |author=Bangyen Pham |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=One-dimensiona..."
04:32:42 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75442&oldid=75441 * Bangyen * (-1) 
04:35:38 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75443&oldid=75442 * Bangyen * (-1) 
04:38:12 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75444&oldid=72054 * Bangyen * (+14) /* Mathematics */
04:47:42 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75445 * Bangyen * (+108) Created page with "'''Bangyen Pham''' is the creator of [[Factor]].  ==External Resources== [https://github.com/bangyen Github]"
04:48:53 <esowiki> [[Q 1.0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75446&oldid=75440 * Emerald * (+31) 
04:53:18 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75447&oldid=75443 * Bangyen * (+221) 
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05:16:44 <shachaf> Now I get POLLIN revents on fd 0, and read still blocks. Exciting.
05:18:20 <Cale> ahhh... ahhh... ACHI/O
05:23:01 <zzo38> Use select() if you need to, I suppose
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05:28:41 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm using poll which does the same thing.
05:29:13 <shachaf> It's reporting that there's something to read on fd 0, but then read blocks.
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05:31:37 <zzo38> It might only work properly in noncanonical mode; I remember once doing something with that, and I think that is what I did to make it work.
05:34:33 <zzo38> I think there must be some way to do it, but unfortunately I don't know exactly what way it is.
05:34:49 <zzo38> (But if nothing else works, then I suppose you can use a pipe.)
05:45:56 <zzo38> Did you try noncanonical mode to see if that works?
05:47:33 <shachaf> I didn't.
05:47:54 <shachaf> Part of what's going on is that I'm running a child process and that process is being stopped.
05:48:09 <shachaf> So I'd have to detect that and switch modes back and forth, I suppose.
05:48:16 <shachaf> Maybe I'll just not worry about it.
05:49:53 <zzo38> Maybe the child process being stopped is what is doing something with it?
05:50:15 <zzo38> I don't really know exactly what you are doing, anyways
05:50:40 <shachaf> I'm not exactly sure what this program is but I suppose it's a sort of debugger.
06:00:36 <zzo38> The man page for epoll suggests that it should be possible with a terminal in canonical mode to read/write until EAGAIN.
06:01:00 <zzo38> Maybe there is a bug in the system? I don't know.
06:02:22 <shachaf> OK, maybe I just need to use canonical mode.
06:02:45 <shachaf> I didn't notice that bit.
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08:02:21 <esowiki> [[ASCII art]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75448&oldid=74891 * Bangyen * (+96) 
08:05:36 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75449&oldid=75447 * Bangyen * (-13) 
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08:30:20 <esowiki> [[Techno]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75450 * Keymaker * (+2167) A sort of DIY OISC.
08:31:09 <esowiki> [[User:Keymaker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75451&oldid=70459 * Keymaker * (+69) Added Techno.
08:32:25 <esowiki> [[Emblia]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75452&oldid=73332 * Keymaker * (+19) Category
08:46:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, I think I see what was going on.
08:48:37 <b_jonas> unix terminal job control?
08:49:39 <shachaf> Something like that.
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08:49:48 <shachaf> I guess it's SIGTTIN.
09:14:59 <shachaf> I'm pretty confusilated by how all this works.
09:21:44 <shachaf> I do understand why it was behaving differently under strace, at least.
09:23:53 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75453&oldid=75449 * Bangyen * (+1) 
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09:39:35 <int-e> meh, how does one finde the requisite data for the bonus challenge at http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/July2020.html
09:42:51 <esowiki> [[Emblia]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75454&oldid=75452 * Keymaker * (+1075) Translating into Natyre.
09:45:06 <esowiki> [[Natyre]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75455&oldid=53028 * Keymaker * (+19) OISC category.
09:57:19 <shachaf> int-e: They took a lot creative liberty with the Hebrew spellings, so probably you just make something up.
09:58:14 <int-e> shachaf: The bonus question asks for a real alphabet.
09:58:52 <int-e> For the challenge itself, yes, you can make the alphabet up completely.
09:59:46 <int-e> "real" includes conlangs and fictional languages, but presumably not ones that were invented this month ;)
09:59:54 <shachaf> Sure, but I mean that even with a "real" alphabet they chose spellings kind of arbitrarily.
10:00:34 <int-e> If they allowed that it would make the bonus question pointless.
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10:00:58 <int-e> You could just submit the "Hebrew" spelling that they used as an example.
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10:06:03 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
10:06:07 <shachaf> The example satisfies their constraint.
10:06:11 <shachaf> OK, never mind.
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10:48:47 <wib_jonas> "<shachaf> int-e: They took a lot creative liberty with the Hebrew spellings, so probably you just make something up."  => it doesn't look like that to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet#Alphabet_2 indicates that they are all normal spellings, in particular pe is spelled out with either an alif or a he.
10:49:20 <shachaf> They put vowels in some of the letters and not others, seemingly arbitrarily.
10:49:33 <wib_jonas> shachaf: they put vowels for long vowels like hebrew usually does
10:50:11 <wib_jonas> admittedly letter names in many alphabets often have multiple spellings because people mostly use them in speech
10:50:41 <shachaf> What makes it be "LMD" and "TAV"?
10:51:28 <wib_jonas> shcahaf: oh, the TAV might be cheating, I didn't pay attention to that
10:51:31 <wib_jonas> then you're right, sorry
10:51:48 <wib_jonas> and so is the VAV
10:52:06 <wib_jonas> ok, you're absolutely right, that is cheating unless it's just a typo and the correct spellings give the right sequence
10:52:20 <wib_jonas> they do say "(Here some of the letters are spelled somewhat irregularly.)"
10:52:34 <shachaf> I think the point is that they're cheating.
10:53:20 <wib_jonas> different topic:
10:53:32 <wib_jonas> Ron Graham, mathematician and juggler, author of Concrete Mathematics, has passed away on 2020-07-06. Rest in peace.
10:54:08 <myname> "mathematician and juggler"
10:54:33 <fizzie> That's the book that looks like it's made out of concrete, right? 
10:54:33 <wib_jonas> yes, those are the two things he was famous for
10:55:02 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no, you're thinking of doorstopper fantasy series
10:55:25 <wib_jonas> I would link the relevant article from TvTropes but I'd rather not during work time
10:55:26 <arseniiv> Graham :(
10:56:29 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: Conc. Math in some editions has a Σ etched in concrete at its cover :)
10:56:33 <fizzie> Concrete Mathematics and generatingfunctionology are two coursebooks I remember the covers of.
10:57:11 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: hmm. let me look up, I think I've only seen one old English edition
10:57:18 <wib_jonas> once, long ago
10:57:27 <wib_jonas> I've never seen a recent edition in original English
10:57:52 <fizzie> https://amazon.co.uk/Concrete-Mathematics-Foundation-Computer-Science/dp/0201558025/ has the cover I remember.
10:58:07 <wib_jonas> ok, it does look like a Sigma etched into some rough surface
10:58:43 <fizzie> On the other hand, generatingfunctionology I probably just remember because of the all-lowercase spelling of the funny name.
11:10:03 <int-e> https://www.omniglot.com/writing/alphabets.htm is the best source I have so far, and it's not consistent enough to be convenient.
11:11:54 <int-e> And many languages are useless. In german, the letters officially stand for themselves, so the game is the identity transformation.
11:11:56 <wib_jonas> int-e: again, that's because spelling out the names of letters is usually not standardized. I remember a discussion on whether the greek letter xi should be spelled "xí" or "kszí" in Hungarian.
11:12:07 <int-e> Oh sure.
11:12:26 <int-e> There are some notable exceptions like greek.
11:12:29 <wib_jonas> you should try one of the many telephone alphabets instead
11:12:46 <wib_jonas> there are a lot of those
11:13:16 <int-e> uh. why did I dismiss that idea...
11:13:30 <wib_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_alphabet lists a ton of radio/telephone alphabets just for English
11:16:44 <wib_jonas> there are also like three telephone alphabets for Hungarian, with mostly given names as the letter names, but lots of variants because some of the less common letters really don't have good given names to work with
11:16:51 <int-e> They're unlikely to work, but at least they're easy to find.
11:19:16 <wib_jonas> you can tell there are a lot of variants because I telephone-spell out my last name differently from my parents, despite that the spelling is the same
11:26:01 <Arcorann> The question states the alphabet can be invented, so the spellings don't have to be real
11:26:51 <Arcorann> Wait, I missed that you were talking about the bonus question
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11:37:28 <esowiki> [[Synced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75456&oldid=75436 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) cat
11:40:11 <esowiki> [[Factor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75457&oldid=75453 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) langs + rm unusable
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11:41:19 <esowiki> [[Natyre]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75458&oldid=75455 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) link + pipe
11:42:02 <esowiki> [[Techno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75459&oldid=75450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
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11:43:21 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75460&oldid=75434 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Interpreter */ cats
11:47:39 <int-e> wib_jonas: "usually not standardized" may indeed be the problem
11:48:53 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75461&oldid=75429 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+661) 
11:49:04 <int-e> (found a candidate that I hate but expect to get away with)
11:49:51 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75462&oldid=75461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Memory */
11:50:12 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75463&oldid=75462 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Commands */
11:50:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75464&oldid=75420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* N */ +[[Number Seventy-Four]]
11:51:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75465&oldid=75391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) /* Languages */
11:57:08 <esowiki> [[Vitsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75466&oldid=70567 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-56) cats + I want to know if external or not
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11:57:33 <esowiki> [[Vitsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75467&oldid=75466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) b
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12:11:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Techno]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75468 * Ais523 * (+1400) an alternative TCness proof, based on [[Tip]]
12:15:11 <esowiki> [[Tip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75469&oldid=63529 * Ais523 * (+20) /* Specification */ a halt command special case that was useful in practice: 1/0= when the other commands are rationals expressed as ratios of integers
12:18:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Techno]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75470&oldid=75468 * Ais523 * (+515) and with nothing hardcoded
12:19:30 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75471&oldid=73361 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) 
12:20:33 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75472&oldid=75471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) /* Commands */
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13:58:37 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75473&oldid=75437 * ZippyMagician * (+496) Add new language
14:11:43 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75474&oldid=75473 * ZippyMagician * (+75) Additional Example
14:11:50 <esowiki> [[Emblia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75475&oldid=75454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) the pipe is null
14:18:22 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75476&oldid=75474 * ZippyMagician * (+507) Info
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15:40:46 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75477&oldid=74470 * Osmarks * (+0) 
15:41:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Emerald *  moved [[Q 1.0]] to [[Qu 1.0]]: Too similar to others
15:42:31 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: b_jonas: int-e: on "xí" and "kszí". Oh :D but surely there is a set of variants deemed far righter than other alternatives? Like in Russian you can call β “бета” (the most used in edited literature), with a lot of reluctance “бэта” (that would be more phonetic if the alphabet would always be used as a phonetic one), but “бэтта” would be a clear sign of incompetence. On the other hand, for λ one has literary “
15:42:31 <arseniiv> лямбда” and “ламбда” (the second would be marked for me, I’ve seen it far less; one example is a translation of Barendregt’s λ-calculus monograph) and maybe even “ламда” (all three have their own merit etymologically) and I don’t remember its name being written in a silly way compared to β. Also as may be expected many letters’ names leave no room for accidental misspellings, like π
16:00:08 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/Nonexistent Page]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75480 * Osmarks * (+1183) Created page with "This page does not exist yet. You can create it via typing in the box below (see the [[Esolang:Help|help page]] for more information). (If you don't want to create the page, j..."
16:02:25 <esowiki> [[StackStacks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75481&oldid=51991 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Turing completeness */
16:03:34 <esowiki> [[Computational class]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75482&oldid=71785 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Turing-completeness */ unread
16:04:09 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/Tpltest]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75483 * Osmarks * (+26) Created page with "{{:User:Osmarks/Tpltest2}}"
16:04:18 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/Tpltest2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75484 * Osmarks * (+24) Created page with "{{:User:Osmarks/Tpltest}"
16:04:22 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75485&oldid=74212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Memory Structure */
16:04:27 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/Tpltest2]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75486&oldid=75484 * Osmarks * (+1) 
16:04:52 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75487&oldid=75485 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Code snipets */ tipos
16:05:12 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75488&oldid=75487 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link to/* Cat */
16:05:31 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75489&oldid=73212 * Emerald * (+216) 
16:07:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75490&oldid=75293 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) 
16:07:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75491&oldid=75490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) 
16:46:19 <esowiki> [[Qu 1.0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75492&oldid=75478 * Emerald * (+0) 
16:59:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75493&oldid=73176 * Emerald * (+408) /* I would not be here if not for you. :) */ new section
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17:04:28 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75494&oldid=75489 * Emerald * (+375) 
17:13:08 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75495&oldid=75476 * ZippyMagician * (+205) 
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17:14:54 <Emerald> Has anyone been in the esolangs server also in the community portal page?
17:17:21 <Emerald> No one?
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17:20:53 <Emerald> Hi.
17:23:39 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75496&oldid=75495 * ZippyMagician * (+192) Add examples
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17:26:13 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75497&oldid=75496 * ZippyMagician * (+132) Clarification
17:28:44 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75498&oldid=75494 * Emerald * (-180) /* Ideas */
17:30:28 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75499 * Emerald * (+108) Created page with "* [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-HVO6dL1yBiRLJp3_7SecD4zjP0ihx0jFGDl2yUTKx4/edit|this] as an Esolang."
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17:39:19 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75500&oldid=75497 * ZippyMagician * (+0) /* Hello World */
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18:00:05 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75501&oldid=75500 * ZippyMagician * (+827) Add Atom basic syntax
18:04:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Tanmay *  New user account
18:10:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75502&oldid=75439 * Tanmay * (+210) /* Introductions */
18:21:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75503&oldid=75262 * DmilkaSTD * (-1933) Blanked the page
18:22:32 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75504&oldid=75322 * DmilkaSTD * (-4478) Replaced content with "'''BF-ASM:8''' is an esoteric programming language made to be compiled to [[brainfuck]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Cell-based]] [[Category:2020]] Category:Unimple..."
18:24:08 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75505&oldid=75504 * DmilkaSTD * (+11) I said that really early
18:24:22 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75506&oldid=75505 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) 
18:40:13 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75507&oldid=75499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) fix link
18:44:17 <esowiki> [[Etcha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75508&oldid=74749 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+137) /* Instructions */ wikitablify
18:44:40 <esowiki> [[Etcha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75509&oldid=75508 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Instructions */
18:45:57 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75510&oldid=75506 * DmilkaSTD * (+248) 
18:53:44 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75511&oldid=75335 * DmilkaSTD * (+78) 
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19:22:18 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75512&oldid=75511 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) 
19:24:34 <Camto[m]> Wow if that's not a page banner
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19:51:49 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75513&oldid=75501 * ZippyMagician * (+209) Update Syntax
19:57:06 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75514&oldid=75513 * ZippyMagician * (+541) Update
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20:14:00 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75515 * Emerald * (+614) EA GAMES
20:15:39 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75516&oldid=75498 * Emerald * (+41) /* Ideas */
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20:17:39 <zzo38> Now I added a command in TeXnicard to import pictures into the card database. Hopefully, someone who is able to help can help with making rendering templates for Magic: the Gathering and/or whatever other card games you might do; I think the software is enough to start doing such thing at least, even if it is not yet completed.
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20:28:23 <arseniiv> @ask rain1 do you know how could one take a square root of a cyclotomic x ∈ Q_n, finding the result in some Q_{kn}? Can’t find anything more than formulas for x ∈ Z
20:28:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:32:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, I think "lamda" vs "lambda" even came up some time earlier on #esoteric
20:36:10 <arseniiv> `? password
20:36:13 <HackEso> The password of the month is still up for grabs.
20:39:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't know which one is more correct, because I don't know any definitive authority for this, plus authorities can differ. "kszí" is used a lot for xi, but I prefer "xí" because the first letter of the name is obviously the same as the name itself and that one is usually transcribed as "x". similarly I prefer "zéta" over "dzéta". this doesn't solve "lambda" vs "lamda", there I don't know 
20:39:24 <b_jonas> enough details about the etymology to determine which one is better.
20:40:09 <b_jonas> the can also differ between whether you're talking about the letter as used in ancient greek, the letter as used in modern greek, or the letter as used for technical symbols such as in mathematical formulas or names of nearby stars 
20:40:12 <myname> i always take it as lambda (maybe because of my native language, who knows) until i saw ramda.js which i always write wrong
20:41:30 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> the can also differ between whether you're talking about the letter as used in ancient greek, the letter as used in modern greek, or the letter as used for technical symbols such as in mathematical formulas or names of nearby stars => yeah
20:45:33 <esowiki> [[Your Time Is Up]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75517 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2187) Created page with "'''Your Time Is Up''' is a [[string]]-[[rewriting]] esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Syntax and Semantics== Programs in Your Time Is Up are in binary, composed e..."
20:46:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75518&oldid=75464 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Y */ +[[Your Time Is Up]]
20:47:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75519&oldid=75465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+91) /* Languages */
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20:51:04 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75520&oldid=75515 * Emerald * (+24) /* July 2020 (1st half) */
20:51:43 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75521&oldid=75520 * Emerald * (-24) /* July 2020 (1st half) */
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21:35:50 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75522&oldid=75514 * ZippyMagician * (+143) Additional
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21:41:57 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75523&oldid=75522 * ZippyMagician * (+8) change
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22:02:53 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75524&oldid=75523 * ZippyMagician * (+1376) Brainfuck interpreter?
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22:03:55 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75525&oldid=75524 * ZippyMagician * (+154) Update
22:10:56 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75526&oldid=75525 * ZippyMagician * (-375) Make smaller
22:19:18 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75527&oldid=75526 * ZippyMagician * (-4) Whoops
22:26:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Techno]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75528&oldid=75470 * Keymaker * (+148) 
22:32:17 <esowiki> [[Techno]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75529&oldid=75459 * Keymaker * (+97) Link alternative proof.
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23:12:26 <esowiki> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75530&oldid=73284 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) The link
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23:44:17 <esowiki> [[Edition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75531&oldid=68252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Cats and ore and hold
23:45:20 <esowiki> [[Edition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75532&oldid=75531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) Rm nl
23:45:34 <esowiki> [[Edition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75533&oldid=75532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) More
23:47:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75534&oldid=75518 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* E */ add As Lang
23:48:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Site support]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75535&oldid=22645 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) Link
23:48:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Site support]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75536&oldid=75535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) S
23:49:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75537&oldid=72178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Count

2020-07-08:

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00:28:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Tetrapyronia *  New user account
00:31:18 <esowiki> [[Circlefuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75538&oldid=34628 * Bangyen * (+155) 
00:34:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75539&oldid=75502 * Tetrapyronia * (+174) 
00:39:12 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75540&oldid=75460 * Caenbe * (+2353) Add interpreter; changed cat to reflect this
00:42:26 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75541&oldid=75540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Interpreter */ link
00:43:05 <esowiki> [[Circlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75542&oldid=75538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
00:43:38 <esowiki> [[Noisett]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75543&oldid=43389 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
00:45:28 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75544&oldid=75541 * Caenbe * (+605) Added examples
00:46:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75545&oldid=75491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
00:47:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75546&oldid=75534 * Caenbe * (+18) Added Affine Mess
01:40:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75547&oldid=75546 * Bangyen * (+13) /* F */
01:50:28 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75548&oldid=75445 * Bangyen * (+257) 
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02:54:46 <adu> Where do I find a cuneiform expert online at this hour?
02:55:17 <zzo38> I don't know? But I suppose you could try writing and see if anyone responds later.
02:55:22 <adu> "𒉏𒁹𒄑𒁁 𒂷𒁹𒌑 𒍴𒐕𒍦 𒀭𒉡 𒄢𒍵 𒉣𒁺𒌋 𒐕𒆐𒈨 𒎗𒍝𒌋 𒄿𒅕𒑙 𒄥"
02:55:41 <int-e> `unidecode 𒉏𒁹𒄑𒁁
02:55:43 <HackEso> ​[U+1224F CUNEIFORM SIGN NIM] [U+12079 CUNEIFORM SIGN DISH] [U+12111 CUNEIFORM SIGN GISH] [U+12041 CUNEIFORM SIGN BAD]
02:56:04 <int-e> . o O ( BAD SIGN )
02:56:12 <adu> I know how it sounds, it took me a week to transcribe it
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03:21:04 <int-e> adu: I don't actually see the symbols in my terminal. (But I also have no clue what they are.)
03:22:09 <adu> how to paste image on irc...?
03:22:45 <adu> https://www.studenthandouts.com/00/200002/babylonian-cuneiform-capstone.jpg
03:24:28 <adu> So this is probably the stupidest translation job, because it's allegedly already translated
03:27:14 <Arcorann> I remember reading something about that, seem to remember it being not that old
03:27:31 <adu> Yes, it's from 1980
03:27:48 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
03:28:50 <zzo38> Probably best is a URL to link (like you have), although I have also seen magnet: URLs (which, if they don't specify how to download them, aren't very useful unless you already have it), and data: URIs (which are too long).
03:28:55 <int-e> I forgot my russian numbers. 100, 1000, 1000000, all gone.
03:30:45 <Arcorann> But where does the cuneiform come from in that case?
03:31:01 <Arcorann> wait, I see it in the image
03:32:10 <int-e> That's an odd one.
03:33:38 <int-e> *checks* almost 4.5 billion people at the time
03:33:51 <int-e> so wtf is that 500M number?
03:34:02 <adu> Probably the work of the devil
03:35:26 <adu> so the "10 evil commandments" are written in 8 living languages, which have probably been read by someone in their native language
03:35:50 <adu> there's a shorter phrase written on the top in 4 dead languages, which is what I'm interested in
03:36:24 <adu> like does it really say the phrase as the English that is offered up? or does it have some evil nuance?
03:38:22 <int-e> https://worldeventsandthebible.com/documentary/mystery-of-georgia-guidestones seems to suggest "Let These Be Guidestones To Reason"
03:39:09 <int-e> (I quackquackwent "Georgia Guidestones" "babylonian")
03:39:19 <Arcorann> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones#Explanatory_tablet <-- also stated here
03:40:18 <int-e> Arcorann: Ah. Reading is hard :)
03:41:30 <int-e> (And skimming is harder... "Around the edges of the square are written translations to" is too convoluted for me to be parsed instantly.)
03:41:56 <adu> https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=el&tl=en&text=%CE%91%CF%85%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%82%20%CE%BF%CE%AF%20%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%B9%20%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD%20%CE%BF%CE%B4%CF%8C%CE%BD%0A%CE%B4%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%89%CE%BD%CE%B9%20%CF%83%CF%89%CF%86%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82
03:41:58 <zzo38> They are ten different things, I think. The third one isn't so good; people can speak whatever language they like to do.
03:41:59 <int-e> I find the "to" very subtle :)
03:42:27 <int-e> Arcorann: thanks!
03:43:01 <adu> So the ancient greek is supposed to be "Ancient" but if you put it in a modern greek translater, you get that
03:43:10 <adu> "These stones the way, Indicators of eternal wisdom"
03:43:24 <int-e> Maintaining 500M population sounds great, but there's no peaceful way to get there.
03:43:43 <int-e> adu: That does sounds like a plausible translation.
03:43:58 <int-e> indicator <--> guide...
03:44:02 <int-e> close enough.
03:44:17 <zzo38> int-e: Well, don't have human children and then they will hopefully be reduced a bit.
03:44:57 <int-e> zzo38: Sounds good until you realize it has to be a world-wide effort to have a meaningful effect.
03:45:21 <int-e> For example, China kind of tried, and are now abandoning the attempt.
03:48:05 <int-e> Oh well, let me go for a walk before it gets warm outside. (Oh, I might actually need more than just a t-shirt. Nice.)
03:48:08 <int-e> @metar lowi
03:48:08 <lambdabot> LOWI 080320Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NCD 10/08 Q1020
03:58:00 <Arcorann> Further down it's suggested that the stones were intended for people rebuilding after the collapse of civliisation, implying that the human population would be already under 500 million
04:00:03 <zzo38> The tenth item is good, I think. But regardless of what is your opinions of any of this stuff, I think to have free speech to write what they like to write. Different people have different opinions of it, which is good.
04:01:24 <zzo38> (Except, they repeat themself)
04:02:57 <zzo38> Arcorann: Yes, that is a possibility, too. The lack of dates for the time capsule suggests they may have intended to put it later due to such thing, maybe, or maybe that is unrelated
04:04:07 <zzo38> But, I don't see the ancient languages writing on Wikipedia, just it mentions what languages it is.
04:05:57 <adu> zzo38: ikr
04:06:05 <adu> it's like a puzzle
04:06:40 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
04:06:53 <adu> I haven't started on the Egyptian Hyroglyphics
04:07:20 <adu> well, I think I got the first part, "𓋴𓌫𓅓𓂻 𓇒𓐒"
04:08:25 <adu> but most of the hyroglyphics translators are of the transliteration variety
04:40:23 <adu> "ऽरमानॊदिरााम दिरातॖयॖगायमत"
04:52:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75549 * Salpynx * (+1829) zero-dimensional polyglots
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05:02:48 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75550&oldid=75457 * Bangyen * (+909) 
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06:05:40 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75551&oldid=75550 * Salpynx * (+71) clarify residue is not a character but a value. I hope 0 and 9 aren't reserved, but they seem ignored too
06:08:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75552&oldid=58551 * Salpynx * (+77) categories
06:16:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75553&oldid=75552 * Salpynx * (+284) /* Polyglots */ Clearly I have been waiting two years to write a Gdel polyglot...
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10:47:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Javagony Turing-completeness proof]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75554&oldid=74945 * Chris Pressey * (+260) 
10:52:56 <cpressey> @tell arseniiv Maybe instead of implementing Generalized Minksy Machine in Tandem, there could just be Generalized Tandem? Associate each of the individual rewrite rules with a constructor like GMM associates each MM instruction with a constructor?
10:52:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:07:15 <arseniiv> fungot what’s your take on the generalized zeta functions?
11:07:16 <fungot> arseniiv: have you ever seen this strange list-of-strings behavior in their emacs? that makes no sense
11:19:01 <shachaf> int-e: Do you know if IntSat (the CDCL ILP algorithm) is good in practice?
11:19:05 <shachaf> I don't know much about ILP.
11:20:13 <int-e> no clue
11:21:55 <shachaf> I assumed you were related due to having the same first name.
11:22:30 <int-e> har dee har
11:22:59 <int-e> Do you like munching on grass? Because of Schaf, you may remember...
11:30:33 <shachaf> Hmm.
11:30:46 <shachaf> That word does highlight my IRC client.
11:30:49 <shachaf> So I must.
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11:44:35 <arseniiv> hee
11:57:38 <esowiki> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75555&oldid=69430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Links */ cats
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12:25:23 <esowiki> [[Lenguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75556&oldid=60166 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) cats + hdr + links
12:25:39 <esowiki> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75557&oldid=75555 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Links */ cat
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13:30:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75559&oldid=75545 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+203) 
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14:00:18 <kspalaiologos> I managed to write a 15-byte truth machine for UM8
14:00:22 <kspalaiologos> `562264926212D2A'
14:00:25 <HackEso> 562264926212D2A'? No such file or directory
14:01:14 <kspalaiologos> 5  IN C / 6  SWP A,C / 2  SWP A,B / 2  SWP A,B / 6  SWP A, C / 4  OUT C / 92 MOV A,2 / 6  SWP A,C / 2  SWP A,B / 1  A=B IF C / 2  SWP A, B / D  SHL A, 1 / 2  SWP A, B / A  MOV [IP=C], B
14:01:24 <kspalaiologos> best viewed with s/\//\n/g;
14:01:48 <kspalaiologos> honestly I can't see much room for improvement here
14:04:25 <esowiki> [[90]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75560&oldid=60948 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Analysis */ cat
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14:08:09 <wib_jonas> 15 byte? aren't programs made of multiples of 4 byte instructions?
14:10:06 <wib_jonas> oh wait, UM8. I thought of UM-32 from the tom7 ICFP
14:12:46 <tromp> some programs are made of single bits
14:17:10 <wib_jonas> adu: I assume you already tried to search for translations on the web
14:19:06 <wib_jonas> adu: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones#Description gives a supposed translation. I don't speak akkadian, ancient greek, sanskrit, ancient egyptian, so I can't tell for sure if it's accurate.
14:20:03 <wib_jonas> so does the bottom of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones#Inschriften , which gives an English translation too
14:20:32 <wib_jonas> I assume that's not a backtranslation, but the original claimed by the creators of the monument that they were trying to translate to those languages.
14:21:03 <wib_jonas> so there are probably actually inaccurate translations, as these monuments usually go
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15:19:01 <esowiki> [[96]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75561&oldid=34055 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) 
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16:33:14 <esowiki> [[99]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75562&oldid=23003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) cats & inpipe
16:33:50 <esowiki> [[7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75563&oldid=50445 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* External resources */
16:34:51 <esowiki> [[Logicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75564&oldid=49736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) cats
16:54:25 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75565&oldid=75521 * Emerald * (+243) 
17:13:22 <esowiki> [[Rubic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75566&oldid=75409 * Digital Hunter * (+46) /* Input and output */
17:15:06 <esowiki> [[Rubic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75567&oldid=75566 * Digital Hunter * (+98) /* Looping */
17:24:46 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75568&oldid=75510 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) 
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17:47:33 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75569&oldid=75568 * DmilkaSTD * (+44) 
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17:52:57 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75570&oldid=75569 * DmilkaSTD * (+22) 
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17:57:10 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75571&oldid=75570 * DmilkaSTD * (+90) 
17:57:42 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75572&oldid=75512 * DmilkaSTD * (+22) 
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18:24:43 <zzo38> Now I read about Quasijarus compression format, which has the same .Z extension as UNIX compression, but the format is like gzip except the different header, which doesn't include the filename and timestamp.
18:26:11 <zzo38> (That is apparently now the compression format used in BSD.)
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18:35:51 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75573&oldid=74584 * Digital Hunter * (+109) /* Example programs */ added a quine program
18:36:16 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75574&oldid=75573 * Digital Hunter * (+17) /* Quine */
18:42:52 <zzo38> (Or at least, some versions of BSD.)
18:48:09 <esowiki> [[Microjump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75575&oldid=74399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+239) cats
18:48:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does such a format even get created? isn't gzip as old as zlib?
18:49:05 <b_jonas> and the filename is optional in the gzip format
18:49:45 <b_jonas> I know people also use zlib without the header, but that's mostly for network formats
18:50:13 <esowiki> [[Dig straight down like an idiot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75576&oldid=72646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) cats
18:54:25 <zzo38> I think this format is supported only on VAX versions of BSD (although it could easily be implemented on other systems too), and they did that because they didn't want GNU software in their system nor the extra stuff in the gzip header, but also didn't like LZW and wanted a better compression algorithm.
19:00:10 <b_jonas> I see
19:04:11 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75577&oldid=75527 * ZippyMagician * (+13) Update
19:04:24 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75578&oldid=75577 * ZippyMagician * (+1) Same as last change
19:06:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75579&oldid=73227 * DmilkaSTD * (+120) 
19:13:31 <lucky> zzo38: Quasijarus is a VAX version of 4.3 BSD from the 80s, and yes it's to switch to gzip algorithm while keeping the whole current system otherwise unchanged 
19:13:49 <lucky> is a modern branch of*
19:19:07 <esowiki> [[Comp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75580&oldid=69482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) pipe->nil
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19:34:08 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75581&oldid=75578 * ZippyMagician * (+49) Update syntax
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19:37:23 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75582&oldid=75581 * ZippyMagician * (-120) Update syntax
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19:49:38 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75583&oldid=75574 * Digital Hunter * (+42) /* Quine */ uhh that one didn't actually work but this one I'm sure does
19:58:16 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75584&oldid=75583 * Digital Hunter * (-5) /* Quine */ i swear
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20:01:39 <esowiki> [[List of quines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75585&oldid=73927 * Digital Hunter * (+162) /* Real Quines */ added a newly-written and verified Surtic quine
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20:20:57 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75586&oldid=75582 * ZippyMagician * (-2) Oops
20:26:24 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75587&oldid=75572 * DmilkaSTD * (-312) 
20:26:35 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75588&oldid=75587 * DmilkaSTD * (-45) lol
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20:57:30 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75589&oldid=75588 * DmilkaSTD * (+735) 
21:06:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75590&oldid=75579 * Emerald * (+146) /* I see what you did */
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21:40:44 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75591&oldid=73366 * Emerald * (-141) /* Commands */
21:58:48 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75592&oldid=75586 * ZippyMagician * (+9) Fix spacing
22:03:40 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75593&oldid=75591 * Emerald * (+46) /* Movement */
22:04:25 <esowiki> [[BFStack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75594&oldid=74036 * Bangyen * (+126) 
22:07:04 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75595&oldid=75548 * Bangyen * (-49) 
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22:18:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75596&oldid=70909 * Elderberry * (+74) Updated PPCG Chat Room
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22:49:27 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75597&oldid=75592 * ZippyMagician * (+73) /* Description */
22:50:43 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75598&oldid=75597 * ZippyMagician * (+8) /* Programs */
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23:27:22 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75599&oldid=75598 * ZippyMagician * (+101) /* Description */
23:28:00 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75600&oldid=75599 * ZippyMagician * (+2) /* Programs */
23:47:19 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75601&oldid=75593 * Emerald * (-5) /* Hello World */
23:50:10 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75602&oldid=75601 * Emerald * (+0) /* Hello World */
23:53:29 <b_jonas> ICFP contest homepage updated btw
23:54:33 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75603&oldid=75602 * Emerald * (+1) /* Hello World */
23:55:29 <esowiki> [[Rubic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75604&oldid=75567 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Example programs */ cat

2020-07-09:

00:46:53 <esowiki> [[Gregor's Answer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75605&oldid=38180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Wip and cats
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03:47:58 <zzo38> The documentation for Mednafen says that physical CD support was removed in version 0.9.38. Is there a FUSE or something to work around this with programs that do not support physical CDs (not only Mednafen)?
03:52:18 <zzo38> (Such a program is also useful for copying the CD images; you can just copy the files into a real file system, or if you have multiple drives, to copy the CD directly to another one, in case the CD recording program you have does not allow direct copying of CDs.)
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04:44:44 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75606&oldid=75603 * Bangyen * (+0) /* Hello World */
04:54:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75607&oldid=72638 * Bangyen * (+572) 
05:01:24 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75608&oldid=75606 * Bangyen * (-11) /* Interpreters */
05:02:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75609&oldid=75607 * Bangyen * (+59) /* Length of Duration Underground */
05:02:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75610&oldid=75609 * Bangyen * (+79) 
05:04:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75611&oldid=75610 * Bangyen * (+23) 
05:35:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75612&oldid=75549 * Bangyen * (+306) /* Polyglot Truth-machine in Factor and Brainfoctal */
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05:39:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75613&oldid=75612 * Bangyen * (+88) 
05:40:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75614&oldid=75613 * Bangyen * (+16) 
05:41:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75615&oldid=75614 * Bangyen * (+146) 
05:42:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75616&oldid=75615 * Bangyen * (-1) /* Polyglot Truth-machine in Factor and Brainfoctal */
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05:50:10 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75617&oldid=75551 * Bangyen * (+93) /* Language overview */
05:53:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75618&oldid=75616 * Bangyen * (+297) 
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05:55:57 <bangyen> I just learned that all changes are announced here, so I apologize for the wiki spam haha.
05:56:29 <zzo38> They are, although some people (such as myself) suppress their display here.
05:56:36 <int-e> bangyen: it's okay, people have the option to ignore esowiki if they don't want to see the updates
05:56:56 <int-e> (I semi-ignore them... they're there but they don't show up as activity)
05:57:18 <bangyen> Ah ok, that's good. Do people usually just leave IRC open 24/7?
05:57:46 <zzo38> Some do.
05:58:08 <int-e> it's not a requirement ;-)
05:58:36 <zzo38> Yes, there are logs anyways, in case you are not connected
05:58:42 <int-e> there are also logs that (apparently) some people follow when they're not here.
05:59:14 <int-e> and in either case they're there if you want to catch up on an ongoing discussion.
06:04:37 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75619&oldid=75595 * Bangyen * (+10) /* Implementations */
06:22:56 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75620&oldid=75617 * Bangyen * (+2572) /* Examples */
06:23:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75621&oldid=75618 * Bangyen * (+80) 
06:33:35 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75622&oldid=75620 * Bangyen * (+5) 
06:37:11 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75623&oldid=75608 * Bangyen * (-2) 
06:58:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75624&oldid=75611 * Bangyen * (+1) 
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07:11:34 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75625&oldid=75415 * Bangyen * (+341) 
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07:53:57 <esowiki> [[Dig straight down like an idiot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75626&oldid=75576 * Bangyen * (+99) 
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11:02:31 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75627&oldid=74944 * Chris Pressey * (+531) /* Non-terminating computations */ Fix laws for disjunction-involving-bottom.
11:05:08 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75628&oldid=75627 * Chris Pressey * (+333) /* See also */ Add a few predecessors
11:06:31 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75629&oldid=75628 * Chris Pressey * (+95) +External resource
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11:58:54 <arseniiv> do you like 34°C at 34% humidity?
11:59:54 <myname> no
12:01:54 <arseniiv> I’m not comfortable either, though that’s the weather out there and where I sit now it should be a couple degrees lower though maybe more humid instead which would be worse
12:05:46 <arseniiv> in one room a clock says 27° and 80%, wow
12:06:30 <arseniiv> high humidity may well be the end of humanity
12:10:42 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75630&oldid=75623 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Interpreters */ cat
12:10:50 <arseniiv> hm I accidentally formulated the first law of myself, which states: you only want to cool by watering something else from yourself when that thing evaporates more efficiently than you plus it can actually cool you in some manner
12:11:17 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75631&oldid=75630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) update tmplt
12:18:28 <esowiki> [[TheSquare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75632&oldid=46751 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) cats + link + bold
12:21:19 <esowiki> [[HighFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75633&oldid=53688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold
12:27:00 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75634&oldid=63546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
12:33:33 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75635&oldid=59463 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) cats]
12:40:46 <arseniiv> I’ve a bunch of ideas for a page on deriving trigonometry (and hyperbolic trigonometry too would be nice) with illustrations/animations, maybe even interactive ones, but I don’t know any frameworks for that sort of things, especially non-JS ones, and don’t want it to be necessary for clients to have a java browser plugin installed for Geogebra examples. So maybe first I should try plain animations, but then it would be nice if I’d
12:40:46 <arseniiv>  be able to generate all of them uniformly, either via the same application or via the same scripting thing tool. Do you know something like that? It should be able to export in a format browsers understand, and it should allow easily drawing at least circle and hyperbola arcs, and maybe sinusoids too
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12:48:36 <rain1> geogebra?
12:48:42 <rain1> nnvm
12:51:10 <rain1> good question about sqrts of cyclotomics...
12:51:11 <rain1> not sure
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13:09:02 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah all in all geogebra is a good thing for interactive visualizations, there’s so many little options, but unfortunately it requires java and I don’t think many people have it these days
13:11:40 <arseniiv> rain1: about cyclotomic sqrt: I’d try to find something by squaring an unknown polynomial over ζ_{kn} and equating it to the given polynomial over ζ_n, but I’m afraid that would still be a hard problem
13:12:37 <arseniiv> hm isn’t DFT nicely related to multiplication of polynomials over ζ_n?..
13:13:19 <arseniiv> (hm should I have written “over Q_{kn}, over Q_n” instead)
13:13:34 <arseniiv> (oh, no)
13:16:51 <rain1> i think geogrebra  works without java nown
13:18:09 <arseniiv> oh, I should look at the news then, thanks! I used v4 for a long time as I wasn’t very glad about the state of v5 right then, but maybe now it looks better
13:23:13 <arseniiv> suppose we defined a DFT operator F: Q_n → Q^n so that for x1, x2 ∈ Q_n, F(x1 x2) = F(x1) F(x2) where the latter multiplication is componentwise. Then we should be able to find out if x ∈ Q_n has a square root in Q_n: each component of F(x) should be a perfect square. Now if that’s correct, the problem is to find what’s going on with images under F of an embedding Q_n ⊂ Q_{kn}
13:23:53 <rain1> woah that is a cool idea
13:29:06 <arseniiv> I’m only uncertain that I haven’t seen this approach mentioned anywhere yet, though I haven’t read much too
13:29:26 <esowiki> [[Warp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75636&oldid=68611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) cats
13:30:27 <esowiki> [[Warp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75637&oldid=75636 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) harp is still alive!
13:30:43 <esowiki> [[Harp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75638&oldid=69929 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) 
13:34:54 <arseniiv> ah, and one of the problems even without Q_{kn} is that the dimension of Q_k over Q is usually less than k so there are many equivalent Q^n representations we’ll need to check. Maybe that’s why it may end up being of no use
13:35:08 <arseniiv> s/Q_k/S_n
13:37:56 <rain1> what would galois theory tell us. Q_kn / Q is (Z_kn/Z)^* and Q_n / Q is (Z/nZ)^*
13:38:20 <rain1> are we looking for Q_kn / Q_n of degree 2?
13:38:35 <rain1> i'm not sure exactly because maybe the extension field will change based on x 
13:38:37 <arseniiv> it should be that, yeah
13:38:57 <arseniiv> hmm why would it?
13:39:06 <rain1> well for example Z is in Q_n
13:39:17 <rain1> and square roots of different elements of Z ends up with different Q_p
13:39:24 <rain1> not p sorry
13:39:50 <arseniiv> ah, yes, then we’ll need different k for different elements
13:41:18 <arseniiv> when there are only finitely many sqrts, we’ll end up in some Q_m with large m, but a different one each time despite starting with Q each time
13:44:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75639&oldid=75590 * DmilkaSTD * (+62) 
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13:55:25 <arseniiv> yeah, my squareness-in-Q_n method is hard. Take for example 4 ∈ Q_2. If we represent it as 4 + 0 ζ₂ or 2 + (−2) ζ₂, under F we have (4, 4) and (0, 4) which tell us 4 is indeed a square in Q_2, but if we represent 4 = 3 + (−1) ζ₂, under F we have (2, 4) which has an entry 2 not a square. So we need to make sure to find the right representation or this criterion is useless
13:56:13 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75640&oldid=74236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Datatypes */ bold
13:56:31 <esowiki> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75641&oldid=75046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) 
13:59:48 <arseniiv> I wonder if the “balanced” representation, where coefficients of ζ_n, (ζ_n)*, −ζ_n and −(ζ_n)* are the same up to sign, is the one. Coincidently, 4 = 2 + (−2) ζ₂ is such a representation
14:00:21 <esowiki> [[Spite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75642&oldid=41532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) 
14:01:13 <esowiki> [[Spite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75643&oldid=75642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* External resources */ dead
14:01:41 <arseniiv> hm but in this definition this representation is not unique (0 = x + x ζ₂ for any x ∈ Q)
14:02:06 <esowiki> [[`LML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75644&oldid=65091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) Bold
14:02:15 <arseniiv> where coefficients of ζ_n, (ζ_n)*, −ζ_n and −(ζ_n)* are the same up to sign => s/ζ_n/ζ_n^k for all integer k
14:03:48 <esowiki> [[Track]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75645&oldid=17531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* Examples: */ cat + links
14:04:58 <esowiki> [[XRF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75646&oldid=52414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Overview */ link+grm
14:05:25 <arseniiv> maybe we need [ζ_n^k] x = − [−ζ_n^k] x and [ζ_n^k] x = [ζ_n^{−k}] x precisely (and x should be real, and if we are not in Q_{2n}, then the first condition is inapplicable)
14:06:52 <arseniiv> *then*, for this representation, we at least have the squareness criterion right for Q₂
14:07:20 <arseniiv> I’m not sure it will be so in Q₄
14:10:27 <arseniiv> in Q₄ the representation is again not unique :( we should restrict the freedom of coefficients of ±i. Hm maybe we should just postulate that [ζ_{4n}^n] x = [ζ_{4n}^{−n}] x = 0
14:11:03 <arseniiv> hopefully one doesn’t need to add more restrictions when n divides 8 etc.
14:11:18 <arseniiv> I’m out
14:11:25 <esowiki> [[Fishstacks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75647&oldid=49157 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) cleanup + cats
14:13:26 <esowiki> [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75648&oldid=71490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) cat + wikify
14:15:18 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75649&oldid=57363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Overview */
14:16:10 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75650&oldid=75649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Variants */ wkp_link + cats
14:18:05 <esowiki> [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75651&oldid=70229 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) lin
14:20:30 <esowiki> [[SovietCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75652&oldid=70048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) cats'
14:20:48 <esowiki> [[SovietCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75653&oldid=75652 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Code examples */ car
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14:22:07 <RiriSec> fungot, tell me something
14:22:08 <fungot> RiriSec: programs don't require computers.... aka scheme evangelist... long live scheme! it adds for you!
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14:22:39 <int-e> fungot: stop being coherent
14:22:39 <fungot> int-e: tre pasted " insertion-sort" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 5606, or 6000 network. the pos was supposedly locked down, after all... as you do in c
14:22:43 <esowiki> [[Crazy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75654&oldid=73036 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) 
14:22:46 <RiriSec> kspalaiologos: hewwo
14:22:55 <kspalaiologos> hi
14:23:10 <RiriSec> it's not like we're talking... all the time XD
14:23:25 <kspalaiologos> :p not at all
14:23:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[No]] to [[No.]]: fix title
14:23:49 <kspalaiologos> fungot, tell me something about asm2bf
14:23:49 <fungot> kspalaiologos: you ' mericans... don't know that
14:24:03 <kspalaiologos> troubling! one day he mentioned asm2bf I recall it
14:24:14 <RiriSec> you know, 6700 messages in +/- 5 days
14:24:25 <esowiki> [[Aggressthon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75657&oldid=66675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) internal link
14:24:32 <RiriSec> fungot, did you know elephans are just dolphins with legs?
14:24:32 <kspalaiologos> <fungot> kspalaiologos: take define-syntax, make your bfasm be a backend. i'm sure they've got plans for it. :p
14:24:32 <fungot> RiriSec: quuux, fnord... ( but then my code isn't particularly memory-hungry anyway :) this'll be fun... like a rotating screen :p " package" is a string, after all
14:24:32 <fungot> kspalaiologos: find the best result
14:24:56 <kspalaiologos> it's quite fun how he's using fnords in places of stuff he doesn't know what to put in
14:25:02 <esowiki> [[Hello, world!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75658&oldid=66689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* See also */ another'
14:26:26 <RiriSec> fungot, tell me something about asm2bf
14:26:26 <fungot> RiriSec: hi luxy!
14:26:35 <RiriSec> a
14:26:39 <RiriSec> oh well
14:29:05 <arseniiv> ^help
14:29:05 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:29:16 <arseniiv> ^style
14:29:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
14:29:27 <arseniiv> ^bool
14:29:27 <fungot> No.
14:30:42 <arseniiv> I knew it
14:33:07 <esowiki> [[RCEM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75659&oldid=40149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 
14:35:56 <esowiki> [[Ragaraja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75660&oldid=60655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) lkin
14:36:16 <esowiki> [[Loose Circular Brainfuck (LCBF)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75661&oldid=74459 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Differences with Brainfuck */ GrM
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14:41:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75662&oldid=75624 * Emerald * (+243) /* Length of Duration Underground */
14:42:03 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75663&oldid=75622 * Bangyen * (-25) /* Brainfuck to Factor */
14:42:08 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75664&oldid=75631 * Emerald * (-40) /* Interpreters */
14:43:12 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75665&oldid=75663 * Bangyen * (-28) /* Factor to brainfuck */
14:45:02 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75666&oldid=75665 * Bangyen * (+9) /* Brainfuck to Factor (Ruby) */
14:45:31 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75667&oldid=75666 * Bangyen * (+9) /* Factor to brainfuck (Ruby) */
14:46:15 <esowiki> [[Psyche]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75668&oldid=72181 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) cat _ link
14:46:55 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75669&oldid=75584 * Digital Hunter * (-10) /* Quine */ a shorter one
14:47:02 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75670&oldid=75571 * DmilkaSTD * (+424) 
14:50:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75671&oldid=75662 * Bangyen * (+94) /* Length of Duration Underground */
14:51:01 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75672&oldid=75589 * DmilkaSTD * (+70) 
14:51:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75673&oldid=75671 * Bangyen * (+81) /* Length of Duration Underground */
14:54:47 <esowiki> [[Semper dissolubilis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75674&oldid=73720 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) ca ts
14:57:14 <esowiki> [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75675&oldid=72941 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) /* See also */ cats
15:02:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75676&oldid=75559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+326) 
15:02:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75677&oldid=75676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Commands */ hmm
15:06:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75678&oldid=75673 * Emerald * (+158) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:07:41 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75679&oldid=75672 * DmilkaSTD * (+95) 
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15:08:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75681&oldid=75680 * Emerald * (-1) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:08:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75682&oldid=75681 * Emerald * (+6) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:11:12 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75683&oldid=75679 * DmilkaSTD * (+36) 
15:11:24 <RiriSec> esowiki be like: ah ok just one-character edit
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15:18:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75684&oldid=75682 * Bangyen * (+627) /* Length of Duration Underground */
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15:21:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75685&oldid=75677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+443) 
15:24:20 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75686&oldid=75565 * Emerald * (+127) /* July 2020 (2nd half) */
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15:25:05 <esowiki> [[Top-based turning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75687&oldid=68205 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Computational class */
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15:30:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75688&oldid=75684 * Emerald * (+133) /* Length of Duration Underground */
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15:40:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75689&oldid=75688 * Bangyen * (+225) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:41:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75690&oldid=75689 * Bangyen * (+26) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:45:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75691&oldid=75690 * Bangyen * (+79) /* Length of Duration Underground */
15:46:59 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75692&oldid=75086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Hello, World! */ fix header
15:48:32 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+551) Created page with "{{PageWIP}} '''Clockwise''' is a two-dimensional esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] where the only turns are clockwise.  ==Syntax== Clockwise code is two-dimensional...."
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15:52:19 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75694&oldid=75619 * Bangyen * (+13) /* Implementations */
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16:36:55 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75695&oldid=75693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+450) 
16:37:11 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75696&oldid=75695 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Commands */ cat
16:42:08 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75697&oldid=75696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* Commands */
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16:51:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75698&oldid=75547 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* C */ + [[Clockwise]]'
16:52:13 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75699&oldid=75519 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) /* Languages */
16:53:23 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75700&oldid=75697 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) 
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18:00:46 <esowiki> [[BFQ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75701&oldid=43140 * Bangyen * (+27) /* Quine */
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19:04:30 <esowiki> [[User:Asasnat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75702&oldid=70023 * Asasnat * (+26) updated stuff
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19:30:36 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75703&oldid=75664 * DeybisMelendez * (+80) Fixed Examples + Link to new Interpreter
19:31:51 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75704&oldid=75703 * DeybisMelendez * (+1) 
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20:01:58 <esowiki> [[User:DeybisMelendez]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75705&oldid=74530 * DeybisMelendez * (+56) 
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21:02:37 <esowiki> [[Animosian]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75706&oldid=68798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold
21:06:48 <esowiki> [[MGIFOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75707&oldid=33654 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Examples */ links
21:09:30 <esowiki> [[Poolshark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75708&oldid=60209 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) bold + headerfixes
21:10:34 <esowiki> [[Legit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75709&oldid=69841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) 
21:11:59 <esowiki> [[Mutating Stack Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75710&oldid=65200 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) 
21:12:54 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75711&oldid=68247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) GrM
21:13:39 <esowiki> [[Set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75712&oldid=55151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* About Set */ cat
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21:32:43 <aaaaaa> aaaaaaaaaaaa!
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22:50:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tautologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75713&oldid=57702 * DmilkaSTD * (+78) 
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23:32:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tautologos]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75714&oldid=75713 * 20kdc * (+228) the syntax is close, though
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23:45:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75715&oldid=75388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+292) 
23:45:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/InputOnlyLangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75716&oldid=74322 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 
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2020-07-10:

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00:23:41 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75717&oldid=68673 * Bangyen * (-23) /* Implementations */
00:24:17 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75718&oldid=75717 * Bangyen * (-2) 
00:25:04 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75719&oldid=75694 * Bangyen * (+22) /* Implementations */
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00:39:28 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75720&oldid=75718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Computational class */ Wouk
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01:43:49 <zzo38> Now you can post follow up messages to <1594277001.bystand@zzo38computer.org> on un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.custom if you want to write comments/complaints about my custom set of Magic: the Gathering cards.
01:46:07 <shachaf> `? zzo38mtg
01:46:10 <HackEso> zzo38mtg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:46:33 <shachaf> `? zzo38card
01:46:34 <HackEso> zzo38cards are at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
01:46:37 <shachaf> `? zzo38mtg.php
01:46:39 <HackEso> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
01:47:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Instead of MD5 I recommend a slow key-derivation sort of function.
01:49:02 <int-e> . o O ( MD5 run through homeomorphic encryption )
01:49:28 <int-e> (No, this isn't supposed to make any actual sense.)
01:50:13 <int-e> This whole (fully) homeomorphic encryption business is a bit of a mystery to me. It's hard to conceive of applications.
01:50:30 <int-e> A bit like blockchain, which essentially has *one* application.
01:50:53 <int-e> (which is to make some electricity companies rich)
01:51:29 <shachaf> I thought the main application was to scam people?
01:51:56 <int-e> That's an additional layer on top.
01:52:57 <shachaf> As far as overall global transfer of wealth goes, I imagine there's more of that? Though I don't really know.
01:55:14 <int-e> probably, not sure it's all that significant
01:55:15 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, although those are old; see http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ for the newest one, which is a specific card set.
01:55:21 <int-e> (probably not)
01:56:05 <zzo38> The NNTP server at zzo38computer.org does not require you to register an account to post.
01:56:19 <shachaf> I mean, global transfer of wealth as a result of Blockchain Technology
01:56:32 <shachaf> Man, I really don't like the grammar that "blockchain" has taken on.
01:56:41 <shachaf> "We used blockchain to do X and Y"
01:57:43 <int-e> we blocked X by chaining it to Y
01:58:09 <shachaf> I think people are using "coronavirus" similarly now, and it also irritates me.
01:58:36 <int-e> we used coronavirus to do X and Y?
01:59:00 <int-e> or do you mean the lack of articles
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01:59:09 <shachaf> Something like the lack of articles, I guess.
01:59:53 <int-e> . o O ( Let's compensate: We used a shachaf to confuse #esoteric. )
02:03:07 <zzo38> There is also a mirror of this card set on Magic Multiverse, although that is mainly for testing the Magic Multiverse export template for TeXnicard, although nevertheless it is there in case it is preferred by someone.
02:09:05 <zzo38> shachaf: Also, the reason I used MD5 is because of the specification of HTTP.
02:09:30 <shachaf> Oh, you use HTTP digest authentication.
02:09:55 <shachaf> I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
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08:14:13 <int-e> where's oerjan when you need somebody to discuss the latest TWIST in GG...
08:16:18 <shachaf> I have also wondered about small variations of that sentence.
08:16:22 <esowiki> [[Back]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75721&oldid=61875 * Bangyen * (+104) 
08:17:05 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75722&oldid=75719 * Bangyen * (+11) /* Implementations */
08:29:55 <rain1> yes where is oerjan
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08:46:40 <int-e> shachaf: I guess GG is one of the more inane topics to ask this about :)
08:47:15 <int-e> (GG = Girl Genius)
08:48:08 <shachaf> int-e: I mean, it's no password of the month.
08:48:30 <shachaf> Now that's a critically important topic.
08:48:38 <int-e> Yeah, nobody cares about the potm.
08:48:39 <int-e> ;)
08:48:59 <int-e> Maybe 3 weeks from now.
08:49:06 <shachaf> i,i `learn The password of the day is [...]
08:49:11 <int-e> But for now, the topic is done, over and best left to rest.
08:49:40 <shachaf> So I jammed up my SAT solver with a couple of extra features and it made a big qualitative difference.
08:49:52 <shachaf> I mean, it can quickly solve instances that it wasn't able to solve previously.
08:50:42 <int-e> But how does it compare to minisat?
08:51:00 <int-e> (which is kind of the baseline solver)
08:51:24 <shachaf> And some of them -- like n-queens -- it solves a lot faster than MiniSAT! Somehow.
08:51:44 <shachaf> ...Was the line I just had in my text buffer, when I switched to the other window to verify that it was n-queens.
08:51:49 <int-e> that's interesting, unless it knows somthing about symmetries.
08:52:05 <shachaf> It doesn't. I think it's just getting lucky using silly simple heuristics.
08:52:23 <int-e> though hmm, those tend to be satisfiable, right?
08:52:33 <shachaf> I need to implement better restarts. I finally added restarts, but I don't even save level-0 assignments when I restart.
08:52:44 <int-e> so luck may be a factor :-/
08:52:59 <shachaf> Yes. I should probably have more UNSAT problems.
08:53:00 <rain1> have you tried to solve puzzles like slitherlink with your SAT solver?
08:53:31 <shachaf> Is sudoku a puzzle like slitherlink?
08:53:37 <int-e> Slitherlink is a bit awkward to encode...
08:53:39 <rain1> no, it's unlike slitherlink
08:53:42 <shachaf> I've solved sudoku and knight's tour.
08:53:50 <rain1> although it is created by the same author
08:53:53 <shachaf> Knights tour is kind of silly since there's a linear time algorithm for it.
08:54:00 <int-e> Though if you have knight's tour you can also do slitherlink.
08:54:18 <shachaf> Oh, Slitherlink is Loopy.
08:54:24 <int-e> Because it's also a tour.
08:54:43 <shachaf> I have some kind of quadratic encoding for knight's tour.
08:54:45 <rain1> yeah encoding that into SAT seems interesting, because you have global/topological constraints
08:54:55 <int-e> yeah, slitherlink = loopy
08:55:24 <int-e> IME these puzzles that involve tours or connectivity are better solved with incremental SAT-solving.
08:55:38 <shachaf> OK, this UNSAT problem -- pigeon-hole-10.cnf -- is interesting.
08:56:10 <shachaf> It's UNSAT, and I solve it quickly if I use static variable ordering, but not any of my really terrible dynamic variable orderings.
08:57:30 <int-e> (What I do is look for solutions without the connectivity constraint. Then, if there's a loop, I assert that I only want solutions that use one of the edges *adjacent* to the loop (for each loop) and continue. Or something closely resembling that.)
08:58:33 <shachaf> My static variable ordering is just to sort variables by the number of occurrences in all (initial) clauses.
08:58:52 <shachaf> And whenever I need a new variable I linearly scan through the list until I see one that isn't assigned.
08:58:55 <int-e> That's for hamiltonian (or close to hamiltonian) cycles that appear in Slitherlink. For connectivity, I do the same thing but for cuts through the underlying graph: For each cut in the candidate solution, one of the involved edges must be in the solution.
08:59:24 <shachaf> That's interesting.
08:59:27 <int-e> Does this make sense? Not sure anybody is reading this. If not I should probably stop :)
08:59:55 <shachaf> I guess you can easily just add clauses incrementally, for CDCL solvers.
08:59:59 <rain1> is there some kind of polynomial time witness to a sat problem being unsatisfiable?
09:00:05 <shachaf> In fact I do that anyway for model counting.
09:00:54 <shachaf> I"m surprised that this kind of thing works better than asserting connectivity upfront.
09:01:04 <shachaf> Is that just because it's really awkward to encode?
09:01:10 <int-e> shachaf: There's *some* difficulty connected to simplification (which some SAT solvers do and which may eliminate variables) but nothing that can't be dealt with by some additional bookkeeping.
09:01:22 <int-e> yes.
09:01:45 <int-e> For those puzzles it's a *huge* unwieldy constraint (compared to all the other, local constraints).
09:02:00 <int-e> Which takes time to generate, and slows down unit propagation and all that.
09:02:10 <shachaf> Are there other kinds of constraint satisfaction problems that let you express that kind of thing more easily?
09:02:29 <int-e> And at least for human solvable puzzles, the connectivity/single loop constraints tend to play a rather minor role.
09:03:33 <int-e> There's actually an SMT solver that incorporates such things, https://github.com/sambayless/monosat
09:03:45 <int-e> Which I've never got around to play with...
09:04:23 <int-e> I view the incremental SAT solving approach I outlined as a poor person's version of SMT solving :)
09:05:20 <int-e> (Rather than checking the theory constraints on the fly, one waits for a complete solution of the propositional skeleton, and analyzes that for theory conflicts. Those become new clauses, and then the SAT solver can proceed.)
09:05:57 <int-e> (And hopefully this finishes before the clauses exceed the available memory.)
09:05:58 <shachaf> I see, you're viewing the circuitude as a theory constraint.
09:06:05 <int-e> Yes.
09:06:25 <shachaf> I need to learn how SMT solvers work better.
09:08:57 <shachaf> If you liked minisat, you're sure to like microsat: https://github.com/marijnheule/microsat/blob/master/microsat.c
09:10:24 <int-e> that coding style...
09:10:40 <shachaf> It's great, isn't it?
09:10:44 <shachaf> One thing per line, with a comment.
09:11:23 <int-e> "thing"
09:12:08 <int-e> lines 33 and 34 alone...
09:13:10 <int-e> (Though tbf, MiniSAT isn't all that pretty either, for different reasons.)
09:14:06 <shachaf> My solver is ~1000 lines of C right now.
09:14:43 <int-e> shachaf: btw do you use github often enough to confirm my suspicion that they moved the link to the commit history recently?
09:15:14 <int-e> or maybe I should hunt down an older screenshot... that may be easier than asking people
09:15:24 <shachaf> They redesigned the whole page recently, right?
09:15:37 <shachaf> https://github.blog/changelog/2020-06-23-design-updates-to-repositories-and-github-ui/
09:17:30 <shachaf> I've also found myself flummxed on this specific task since then.
09:18:51 <int-e> Here's an old screenshot, with "$nnn commits" at the top https://d1jnx9ba8s6j9r.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Cloning-how-to-use-github-Edureka.png ... I'm pretty sure that was a link.
09:19:22 <int-e> I'm sure I'll get used to the change in a month or two.
09:19:28 <int-e> But for now it's pretty annoying.
09:19:37 <rain1>  like that coding
09:19:41 <shachaf> It was.
09:19:46 <rain1> must be a fucking pest to work on without editor support
09:19:46 <shachaf> Another screenshot: https://tonsky.me/blog/github-redesign/10_as-is.png
09:20:11 <int-e> thanks
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09:22:32 <int-e> The other thing I've been wondering is who that 'Add file' UI is supposed to be for.
09:22:46 <int-e> Because I'm pretty sure it's not for developers.
09:23:27 <shachaf> Wow.
09:23:30 <int-e> (Or maybe... they are unifying the github and gist UIs?)
09:23:38 <shachaf> I clicked the "Add File" button and it automatically forked the repository?!
09:24:10 <int-e> That makes some amount of sense.
09:24:18 <shachaf> Now it needs my password to delete it.
09:24:26 <int-e> But it also seems rather surprising.
09:24:46 <shachaf> I am not particularly a fan of the whole forking model in GitHub.
09:24:47 <int-e> Right, because deleting repos requires a password.
09:24:50 <int-e> FUN.
09:24:54 <wib_jonas> hi #esoteric
09:25:27 <rain1> hi!
09:25:31 <int-e> Hmm, but it matches the git model... to make a change, you get your own copy of the repo, modify that, and then make a pull request.
09:25:49 <shachaf> Did y'all see https://github.com/shachaf/mustardwatch ?
09:25:52 <int-e> (Or send the patches by email.)
09:26:02 <rain1> lol
09:26:06 <int-e> shachaf: You've talked about it at length.
09:26:09 <shachaf> Oh.
09:26:23 <shachaf> Sounds like the kind of thing I might do.
09:26:37 <shachaf> Well, the GitHub pull requests aren't really part of the whole git model in the first place.
09:26:43 <shachaf> They're a separate code review tool.
09:26:57 <shachaf> I guess there's some connection to regular git pull requests.
09:27:33 <wib_jonas> "<rain1> is there some kind of polynomial time witness to a sat problem being unsatisfiable?" => not in general, because that would mean NP = coNP which we can't prove (though a few people suspect that it's true)
09:27:41 <wib_jonas> I think it's false
09:28:13 <int-e> shachaf: I think this is what you get if you combine the review-by-email and pull-from-this-repo requests in one UI, and modify it to be web-friendly.
09:28:27 <int-e> Yes, it's not the same, but most of the spirit seems to be preserved. YMMV.
09:28:56 <shachaf> Doesn't NP=coNP lead to some sort of hierarchy collapse?
09:29:30 <int-e> I thought it's weaker than the infamous NP = P.
09:29:47 <int-e> Which I think means no.
09:29:55 <int-e> But I'm not sure :-/
09:30:42 <shachaf> Wikipedia says "If NP = co-NP then NP = PH."
09:30:51 <shachaf> I should know these things properly.
09:31:26 <wib_jonas> "<shachaf> They redesigned the whole page [github] recently, right?" => yes, they needed to do that to hide the change that they -- wait, Wikipedia? don't you look that up in the Complexity Zoo? -- show some other branch name instead of "master"
09:31:35 <int-e> Hmm.
09:31:45 <shachaf> I looked it up on the Google.
09:32:10 <wib_jonas> also, no way, last time I heard about this we certainly didn't know that
09:32:35 <int-e> I still get master branches.
09:33:22 <wib_jonas> int-e: ok, maybe not then
09:33:23 <shachaf> Now I'm thinking about it and I'm not even sure what sorts of things are in PSPACE and not in PH.
09:33:49 <shachaf> I guess a thing in PH requires you to specify the number of quantifiers upfront rather than being part of the input.
09:34:07 <shachaf> So I guess I actually do know.
09:34:12 <int-e> Well, PSPACE-complete stuff like QBF...
09:34:15 <shachaf> (I mean, unless PSPACE = PH.)
09:34:16 <wib_jonas> shachaf: the sokoban kind of problems, where you need to find solution that may be exponentially long
09:34:37 <shachaf> Right, but my question would have been, why is QBF not in PH? But then I figured it out.
09:34:40 <int-e> Or your favorite PSPACE-hard problem, #SAT.
09:34:53 <int-e> (Unless I'm mixing things up again. I may.)
09:35:25 <shachaf> #SAT is PSPACE-hard? Hm, what does that mean?
09:35:32 <shachaf> Er.
09:35:40 <int-e> Yeah, I can see the fun there... each QBF instance is in PH.
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09:35:51 <shachaf> I thought you said PSPACE-complete again somehow, despite typing a different phrase.
09:36:11 <shachaf> I'm still not sure what it means, since #SAT isn't normally a decision problem, but maybe you just do the usual thing.
09:37:17 <wib_jonas> "<shachaf> Well, the GitHub pull requests aren't really part of the whole git model in the first place." => yes, the original git model is sending patch sets by email
09:38:08 <wib_jonas> github does the same but tries to remove the email part and do a web forum thread for pull requests instead of an email threads, because email is harder to centralize (at least if you're Microsoft not Google) and so harder to monetize
09:38:21 <wib_jonas> I think it's logical
09:38:29 <int-e> Hmm, the complexity wiki just has the weaker statement that PH is in P^{#P}
09:39:25 <shachaf> Last time I looked, GitHub didn't look like a good code review tool.
09:39:31 <shachaf> But people say it's better so maybe it's better?
09:39:41 <wib_jonas> shachaf: can you give a link to where wikipedia says that if NP = coNP then NP = PH?
09:39:57 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_hierarchy#Relations_between_classes_in_the_polynomial_hierarchy
09:40:46 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda%27s_theorem
09:40:59 <int-e> (is about #P)
09:42:13 <wib_jonas> hmm, it does say that there
09:42:31 <int-e> So yeah by the preceeding discussion this falls short of making it PSPACE-hard.
09:43:32 <shachaf> The nice thing about designing sudoku puzzles to be human-solvable is that id minisat doesn't find a solution within a few seconds, the puzzle probably won't be fun for a human.
09:43:33 <int-e> (Why? Maybe the reduction is exponential in the number of quantifier alternations or something like that.)
09:43:47 <shachaf> Or at least that's my heuristic. Maybe it's not entirely true.
09:44:20 <int-e> I imagine that's true.
09:44:37 <int-e> I imagine the converse doesn't work :P
09:44:40 <wib_jonas> I fail to find solving sokoban fun. It's a nice game in theory, but actually playing it just doesn't work well for me.
09:45:06 <int-e> Hmm. I used to play Sokoban *a lot*.
09:45:14 <shachaf> Do you find solving Stephen's Sausage Roll fun?
09:45:26 <int-e> shachaf: Only up to a point.
09:45:54 <shachaf> int-e: I found puzzles that were extremely restrictive with the SAT solver, so I thought they would be interesting for humans.
09:46:08 <shachaf> But it turns out to be too difficult, at least for me and a couple of other people.
09:46:13 <wib_jonas> ah yes, you are right
09:46:15 <wib_jonas> https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Petting_Zoo#PH
09:46:16 <int-e> I gave up on it, around the point where puzzles started to rely on detaching the fork.
09:46:21 <wib_jonas> that confirms your statement
09:46:41 <wib_jonas> I don't know what Stephen's Sausage Roll is
09:47:29 <wib_jonas> anyway, I have an algorithm design question for you #esoteric
09:48:29 <int-e> SSR put some twists on a Sokoban-like game.
09:49:23 <int-e> My main complaint is actually that you don't get access to all the levels from the start, even though there's actually a reason for that...
09:50:20 <wib_jonas> I have N small boxes, where let's say N <= 40000. Each box has two states: empty or full. Initially all boxes are full. Then I want to perform an interactive sequence of three types of steps. (A) Query the state of a bunch of boxes. (B) Set a bunch of boxes from full to empty. (C) Given a number K, fill exactly K empty boxes such that the set of
09:50:20 <wib_jonas> boxes filled is chosen uniformly among all empty boxes and independently from previous random choices.
09:51:37 <wib_jonas> In practice, the boxes are in pages often accessed together, so I'll query all boxes in a few page together or fill a set of boxes that are some of the boxes within a few pages.
09:52:00 <wib_jonas> I know at least one way to do this, but I'd like the best practical way, in terms of memory efficiency and time efficiency.
09:53:10 <int-e> Meh I forgot how this works, wasn't there a way to turn the sausages...
09:53:46 <int-e> oh I know.
09:54:18 <wib_jonas> The best method I found so far is to store the empty boxes in a binary heap, with a dense index table from all boxes into the heap. For (A) we just look up which indexes are filled in the index table; for (B) we add boxes to the heap with random weights, (C) we remove the box with the highest weigh repeatedly K times.
09:55:28 <wib_jonas> You can alternately use a treap, sorted by box number, in which case you don't need a separate indexing table because you can traverse a section of the treap in order, but this doesn't seem better, it takes slightly more memory, and now you have child pointers among the nodes which a binary heap doesn't need.
09:55:43 <wib_jonas> They involve a bunch of random access in either case.
09:56:17 <wib_jonas> There's probably some better method by amortizing stuff, marking how many more boxes you have to fill in each page, but it doesn't seem trivial.
09:56:59 <wib_jonas> Does my question make sense?
09:58:49 <int-e> So (A) and (B) are just operations on a boolean array?
09:59:51 <int-e> (Which does not support (C) efficiently by itself, but I'm trying to understand the problem here.)
10:04:33 <shachaf> Does it not?
10:04:49 <int-e> you'll have to scan the whole thing
10:05:42 <shachaf> Oh, I was thinking of a slightly different problem.
10:06:16 <int-e> I'm referring to the thing starting with "I have N small boxes"
10:06:41 <int-e> Mainly I'm trying to clarify what (A) and (B) are.
10:07:41 <int-e> The "bunch of boxes" is confusing me.
10:07:43 <wib_jonas> int-e: all of them are operations on a boolean array, yes, but if you have only a boolean array, (C) will be slow. that's correct.
10:08:09 <wib_jonas> each box is a boolean
10:08:15 <wib_jonas> and they're numbered to be in an array
10:08:35 <wib_jonas> (if they aren't entirely dense that doesn't matter, we'll just never empty those boxes then)
10:08:39 <int-e> Yeah "they're numbered" is what I was fishing for.
10:09:14 <int-e> (Hah, it feels odd to type "fishing" without 'ph'.)
10:09:41 <shachaf> fiphing?
10:09:58 <int-e> the phunster at work
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10:11:15 <wib_jonas> I guess I could keep a counter for each page for the number of balls to be distributed 
10:11:40 <wib_jonas> and to do (C), I iterate on all pages and generate the balls I add to the count in the correct distribution,
10:11:55 <wib_jonas> which I think you can somehow do with binomial magic... I'll have to look that up
10:12:28 <wib_jonas> I could even do that hierarchically on a high-arity tree with the boxes in the nodes
10:23:57 <shachaf> What is the context of this problem?
10:26:27 <wib_jonas> shachaf: the motivation is a hypothetical game where the balls are resources that the player can collect then spend, like coins or ammo, a box is a fixed place on the map where the player can collect the resource, but unlike in traditional games, you can't just collect infinitely many resources by just replaying the same one level (whichever is
10:26:27 <wib_jonas> easy and fast and has lots of boxes), but there's also not just a finite amount of resources you can collect, they respawn in levels when you spend them.
10:27:28 <wib_jonas> The pages are levels or rooms, or just regions of the map handled together for efficiency if there are no level/room boundaries.
10:35:38 <int-e> wib_jonas: not sure what you want to do with the page constraint https://paste.debian.net/1155884/ is a sketch of something that I might try
10:36:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: pages are not a constraint, they're just a hint that may make it possible to optimize the real-world implementation, especially on a machine where RAM doesn't have uniform access time.
10:37:16 <wib_jonas> It can be useful because the heap solutions that I mentioned use a lot of ugly random access of single records each across many cache lines.
10:38:04 <int-e> the thing I'm sketching doesn't have brilliant locality properties either
10:38:19 <int-e> but it's way simpler than a heap
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10:40:26 <int-e> (it's related to the trick that you use to get constant time operations (including initialization to zero) using two arrays)
10:40:46 <rain1> <shachaf> Do you find solving Stephen's Sausage Roll fun?
10:41:05 <rain1> I like this game a lot, but it's hard. I haven't completed it
10:41:05 <shachaf> I like that trick, I was just thinking about that.
10:41:30 <shachaf> I mean, I was thinking about it after seeing your code.
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10:44:57 <int-e> rain1: how many sausages did you get?
10:45:22 <int-e> (174 here)
10:45:38 <rain1> 105
10:46:12 <int-e> I feel better ;)
10:46:50 <int-e> But yes, seriously, it's hard. It *starts out* with levels that would be hard in other games, and mostly it just gets harder.
10:47:01 <int-e> Or that's how I recall it, I've played this years ago.
10:48:45 <int-e> Apparently (looking at save files) May  3  2017 is when I started, May 13  2017 is when I solved my last level.
10:49:18 <rain1> yeah it starts out very very hard
10:49:22 <wib_jonas> I see, you have a right-growable array that stores the indexes of the empty boxes in an arbitrary order, and a full array that stores for each box the index into that full array. You keep the two in sync.
10:49:24 <rain1> and then it gets way harder
10:49:35 <rain1> i like the courage of a game to do that, baba is like that too
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10:50:12 <int-e> Hmm. Baba has some tutorial levels at least. Hmm.
10:50:25 <shachaf> int-e: I'm confused by your code, actually.
10:50:44 <int-e> I tried, but I may have gotten it wrong.
10:50:53 <wib_jonas> For (A) you just look in the second array, for (B) you push a value to the first array an mark its index in the second, for (C) you repeatedly pick a random element from the first array, remove it, keep it dense by moving an element from the there, adjust first array in both places.
10:51:07 <wib_jonas> That does work and is better than what I suggested. I should have thought of it, thank you.
10:51:19 <shachaf> int-e: Say you empty 3, and then empty 1, and then fill 3. What's the state you're supposed to be in?
10:51:34 <int-e> But the idea is that -1 in `filled` represents filled boxes and each empty box has a corresponding entry in the `avail` array; these two entries point to each other.
10:51:57 <shachaf> Yes, I understand that bit, with the dense and sparse arrays.
10:52:07 <wib_jonas> I'm also confused by the code, but to be fair int-e said "sketch"
10:52:08 <int-e> Oh. I'm missing an update to `filled` when I move avail[i] = avail[free-1];
10:52:15 <int-e> As I said, I may have gotten it wrong.
10:52:34 <shachaf> Oh, you want to be setting avail[filled[i]]
10:52:40 <int-e> The missing bit is setting filled[avail[i]] = i.
10:53:12 <shachaf> I think it's a bit more complicated than that?
10:53:36 <int-e> filled[avail[i] = avail[free-1]] = i;
10:54:03 <wib_jonas> The more local version needs to do the ugly binomial calculations, which is sort of a tradeoff of more time for less storage.
10:54:34 <int-e> shachaf: I'm not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that
10:55:38 <int-e> I suppose C++ frowns upon using `free` as an identifier ;-)
10:55:40 <wib_jonas> I guess you could do an intermediate thing where instead of binomial calculations you just repeatedly increase the delay counters by one. You still need a weighted random choice, but that's not that bad.
10:55:59 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think it only frowns upon using it as a *global* identifier or macro
10:56:20 <wib_jonas> I think you're fine using it as local
10:57:20 <wib_jonas> also don't try to use j0 as a global function name in C, as I learned from mysterious linker errors...
10:58:01 <int-e> Bessel
10:58:03 <wib_jonas> nor nl, beacuse curses is old and pollutes the global C namespace with nonsense like that, and we couldn't get rid of it yet
10:59:09 <int-e> rain1: I've started a new game just to see what it was like and... how do you figure out what the objective is ;)
10:59:20 <rain1> that's part of the fun!
10:59:33 <int-e> I mean, I remember it.
10:59:46 <wib_jonas> the objective is to get the credit screen to appear... wait, what game is this?
10:59:52 <int-e> But I don't recall how I figured it out.
10:59:57 <rain1> replaying it, I find different win conditions
11:00:08 <wib_jonas> is it still the sausage roll?
11:00:14 <int-e> yes
11:00:38 <rain1> oh sorry, I was thinking baba
11:00:48 <int-e> oh sorry
11:00:57 <int-e> Baba made it easier, I think
11:02:01 <int-e> Let's see.I deleted all my progress anyway
11:02:28 <wib_jonas> well Baba has the first level say "flag is win" or some such thing, right?
11:03:55 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I think you want something like: { int f = filled[i]; if (f != -1) { avail[f] = avail[free-1]; filled[avail[f]] = f; filled[i] = -1; free--; } }
11:04:30 <shachaf> You don't ever want avail[i], I think, probably you meant avail[f]? That's the bit that was confusing me.
11:05:26 <int-e> wib_jonas: yes. and the level is designed in a way that doesn't tempt you to mess with the text
11:06:35 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/baba_start.png
11:08:16 <int-e> shachaf: ah yes. that looks like what I want indeed.
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11:08:48 <shachaf> In some universe you would have different types for sparse and dense indices.
11:08:52 <shachaf> (Not this one, though.)
11:09:06 <shachaf> Anyway this solution is good. I like it.
11:10:06 <wib_jonas> int-e: thanks for the link
11:11:01 <wib_jonas> shachaf: nah, I'd just use uint16_t or uint32_t for both, depending on whether I can have more than 65000 coins
11:11:24 <shachaf> I don't mean machine types but type checker types.
11:11:44 <shachaf> I don't think that's actually a great idea, but I do think it's easy to mix them up.
11:11:59 <shachaf> Do you know the problem of sampling k integers (in the range [0,N)) without replacement?
11:12:33 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, but still no, because this is simple enough to not require types. I might choose better identifier names of course.
11:12:52 <shachaf> When I tried to figure it out I came up with an OK answer, with the right asymptotic behavior, but it turned out there was an even nicer algorithm.
11:13:01 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Yes, that's why I said it's not in this universe.
11:14:28 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, I actually researched that. the dense case (k is on the order of magnitude of N) is well known. For the sparse case, TAOCP has one solution, but there's another solution that seems equally good, and was either invented or independently reinvented by Roger Hui, and that I should send as an improvement ticket to TAOCP, but I'm lazy and
11:14:29 <wib_jonas> have been putting it off as Knuth won't work on volume 2 for a long time.
11:14:55 <shachaf> wib_jonas: What are the two solutions?
11:14:57 <wib_jonas> I don't think either solution is clearly nicer than the other.
11:15:22 <shachaf> My solution used a lookup table, int->int, whereas the nicer solution only used a set of ints.
11:15:30 <shachaf> Uh, not a lookup table.
11:15:36 <shachaf> A map, modified at runtime.
11:16:12 <wib_jonas> shachaf: both solutions need a hash of size constant times k where the keys are indexes up to N, but in both cases the hash part is easy because you can use a trivial hash function because you will be storing random keys only.
11:16:22 <wib_jonas> but there are two ways to use that hash to pick a sample of size k.
11:16:50 <shachaf> wib_jonas: whoa, somehow I didn't make that observation, that you can use a simpler hash table because your keys are guaranteed random.
11:17:15 <shachaf> Or are they? Hmm.
11:17:40 <wib_jonas> shachaf: maybe you should read TAOCP then? the solution in TAOCP is to use the hash to store which items have been picked, keep picking a random item out of the N, redo the pick if you have already picked the same item, and repeat until you got k successes.
11:17:44 <int-e> rain1: Oh looks like 105 is actually a relatively nice phase of the game where you have plenty of levels to choose from (but it's hard to say)
11:18:15 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Redo the pick? Doesn't that have arbitrarily long worst case runtime?
11:18:34 <shachaf> You can do this with exactly k calls to the RNG.
11:18:40 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, but again it's uniform random so it's exponentially fast,
11:19:08 <wib_jonas> and in both cases you do this only if k is significantly less than N, so the probability that you pick the wrong thing is less than k/N, which is less than 1/5
11:19:22 <wib_jonas> you just do the normal dense solution if 5*k>=N
11:19:47 <rain1> yeah the difficulty curve isa lot kinder
11:19:49 <int-e> rain1: Anyway, at the point I reached I have one level to solve and I got totally stuck on that one. Which is... meh.
11:19:50 <shachaf> OK, but there are nice algorithms that just works in all cases.
11:19:52 <rain1> but still ends up being a super hard game
11:20:01 <rain1> int-e in SSR?
11:20:07 <int-e> rain1: yeah in SSR
11:20:12 <rain1> is that in the fire zone?
11:20:25 <int-e> No, I'm past that.
11:20:26 <wib_jonas> Roger Hui's solution is to simulate the dense algorithm, which maintains a permutation that is initially the identity permutation. It will change k random items and the k last items in that. So you store the k last items in a dense array, and any other items that don't match the identity in your hash. In this case the hash has values too, not just
11:20:26 <wib_jonas> keys.
11:20:28 <rain1> oh exciting
11:20:31 <rain1> i thought this was the last zone
11:20:52 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Oh, that's my solution.
11:20:56 <wib_jonas> In this case there's still potential redo: it comes from the algorithm to pick a uniform random number from a size that's something between N and N-k+1
11:20:57 <int-e> there's a sort of vikings zone
11:21:14 <wib_jonas> shachaf: right, that's why I think Roger Hui may have independently reinvented the solution
11:21:28 <shachaf> But Floyd's solution is even better.
11:21:31 <wib_jonas> shachaf: note that generating the single random pick comes with a chance to redo in first place
11:21:48 <wib_jonas> What's Floyd's solution?
11:21:49 <shachaf> Yes, noted.
11:22:28 <wib_jonas> I don't think you can have ANY solution with no chance to redo, because you have to pick one solution among binomial(N,k), and that's usually not a power of 2
11:23:18 <shachaf> I was taking "pick a single random number in [0,n)" as a primitive.
11:23:42 <wib_jonas> it can probably only be a power of 2 if k<=1, and k=1 is a special case with well-known solution, k=0 is trivial
11:23:48 <shachaf> Let me see if I can remember Floyd's solution and the phrasing I liked.
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11:24:21 <wib_jonas> shachaf: you can do that, but then you're cheating with accounting. in exchange for perhaps slightly more retries, the TAOCP solution has less bookkeeping and an easier implementation.
11:24:41 <wib_jonas> The hash table stores only values, not keys, and you only have to modify one element, not two.
11:24:47 <shachaf> That's a fair argument that I hadn't thought of.
11:25:03 <wib_jonas> There's no special case for when you pick one of the last elements either.
11:25:05 <shachaf> Floyd's algorithm also stored only values rather than key-value pairs.
11:25:48 <shachaf> Let me see if I can remember it exactly. It took me a bit to convince myself it was correct, but with the right phrasing it's hopefully obvious.
11:25:50 <wib_jonas> And if there's a "Floyd's solution" that isn't clearly worse than the TAOCP solution, why is that not in TAOCP in first place?
11:26:11 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, the same is true about Roger Hui's algorithm, since I read it in source code form
11:26:14 <shachaf> I don't know. I've only read the SAT section of TAOCP.
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11:26:49 <int-e> rain1: there's a huge area to the south that goes all the way back (eastward) to the starting island... and probably beyond but that's about where I'm stuck
11:27:01 <wib_jonas> unless that solution is later or close in time to the third edition of vol 2 of course
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11:29:40 <shachaf> To sample k numbers < N: First sample a smaller set of k-1 numbers < N-1. Then choose a random number i < N. If i isn't in the smaller set, then just add it. If i is in the set, add N-1 instead.
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11:34:13 <int-e> rain1: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr-south-of-start.png ... actually I'm stuck quite a bit east from there.
11:34:33 <rain1> hmm
11:34:45 <int-e> rain1: and if I place the area correctly, the fire area is a good way west (and a bit to the north) from there.
11:34:55 <int-e> the ssr world is huge.
11:35:16 <rain1> ive restarted the game a couple times, to reintegrate the knowledge from earlier levels
11:35:31 <rain1> but i havent got past the fire zone yet
11:36:03 <int-e> I forgot what the twist in that area was... I played one level where you had to kind of plan for your way back
11:36:37 <int-e> and you had to work pretty hard on turning a roll by 90 degrees
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11:37:34 <int-e> But meh, I think it'll just be an unfinished game for the time being. Lots of other games around.
11:38:31 <rain1> what other games do you like?
11:39:53 <shachaf> IntSet sample(int N, int k) { IntSet s = empty_set(); for (int i = N - k + 1; i <= N; i++) { int v = rand(i); if (!has(s, v)) { add(s, v); } else { add(s, i-1); } } return s; }
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11:40:27 <shachaf> This is just better than the simulated shuffle algorithm I came up with (which I guess Hui did first?).
11:41:29 <shachaf> If TAOCP has a section on sampling naturals sparsely without replacement, and it doesn't mention this algorithm, that's a glaring omission.
11:41:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * The Esolanger *  New user account
11:41:40 <shachaf> I doubt that's the situation of the world.
11:42:00 <rain1> claim your $2.56
11:42:20 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I don't know who did first. I heard the solution from Roger Hui, and he confirmed in an email that he came up with the solution idependently, but this is something multiple people could have invented.
11:45:04 <int-e> rain1: I guess the genre that I play most is click&point adventures. But I kind of want to finish a first person shooter at some point. I almost made it through Bioshock Infinite... and then I lost the savegame in an OS reinstall (because it was in a place I didn't think to back up).
11:45:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75723&oldid=75539 * The Esolanger * (+188) /* Introductions */
11:46:07 <wib_jonas> rain1: it's not an error but a significant suggestion, so it's worth only $0.32, and that only if you're the first to suggest it
11:46:16 <int-e> I guess the only hard constraint is that I don't do multiplayer.
11:46:35 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I don't understand why that solution works yet
11:48:41 <int-e> it doesn't feel uniform
11:48:54 <shachaf> It is. But it uses trickery.
11:50:38 <wib_jonas> I kind of want to finish a first person shooter at some point => I think the most popular ones are Doom, Hexen, Perfect Dark, Half-Life.
11:50:59 <wib_jonas> Most popular as story in single-player mode that is, as opposed to multiplayer fights.
11:51:24 <wib_jonas> You should probably at least know about those four before deciding what to play.
11:51:49 <int-e> Ah, I think I get it. When you use i-1 you pretend that the element you clashed it actually had that index.
11:52:12 <int-e> But using a set obscures that fact, you should really sample an ordered list.
11:53:07 <wib_jonas> int-e: both the TAOCP algorithm and Roger Hui's algorithm actually samples an ordered list
11:54:29 <shachaf> Say you've sampled k numbers < N, stored in a set S. So each number <N has k/N probability of being in S.
11:54:49 <shachaf> You want k+1/N+1 numbers <N+1.
11:55:39 <shachaf> There are k numbers you've already chosen, along with N+1 itself, in the range you're picking from. So that gives the right probability of picking N+1.
11:55:59 <shachaf> And certainly all the other numbers are treated uniformly.
11:58:44 <shachaf> Uh, I meant you want k+1 numbers <N+1, each with probability k+1/N+1
11:59:50 <int-e> https://paste.debian.net/1155889/
12:00:25 <int-e> I find this conceptually easier, don't sort, just produce permutations
12:01:07 <shachaf> But that searches the array linearly.
12:01:16 <int-e> it's not about performance
12:01:26 <int-e> it's about correctness
12:01:33 <shachaf> Sure. I mean, this is why I phrased it as a set.
12:01:47 <int-e> I find it harder to digest as a set
12:03:01 <shachaf> Fair enough.
12:03:31 <shachaf> Here's a source: https://fermatslibrary.com/s/a-sample-of-brilliance
12:04:40 <int-e> (The advantage of the list is that each sequence of random sample produces excactly one list *and vice versa*)
12:04:46 <shachaf> I didn't even think about producing permutations with it, that's neat.
12:05:05 <shachaf> In particular the way it distinguishes the picking N+1 case from the picking some previously-picked number case.
12:05:21 <shachaf> Even though they have the same effect on the set.
12:05:23 <int-e> (Still something to think about but you don't have to count anything to see that it's fair.)
12:10:55 <wib_jonas> shachaf: so this is like Roger Hui's solution, but doesn't keep track of the order of the objects in the output, so if you want an ordered sample, you need an extra permute step afterwards?
12:11:08 <wib_jonas> interesting
12:11:46 <wib_jonas> of course, Roger Hui's solution specifically wants to pick an ordered set, and... let me look up how Knuth's exercise is phrased, but I guess it should ideally talk about both
12:12:15 <wib_jonas> and Roger Hui's solution needs the extra bookkeeping to know which element to move even if k is large
12:14:36 <wib_jonas> shachaf: interesting, thank you for mentioning this algorithm. 
12:15:01 <wib_jonas> shachaf: to be clear, is this the one you said was Floyd's?
12:15:03 <shachaf> If you want the order, you can do what int-e did.
12:15:20 <int-e> mumble 'If you are a programmer, you might be surprised but other people normally don’t like hierarchies.'
12:15:27 <int-e> unfortunately, I'm a programmer
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12:15:52 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, int-e does a linear traversal, which works for small k only
12:15:57 <shachaf> I didn't actually read your description of Roger Hui's solution carefully. My solution doesn't store the dense array, only the hash table, and extracted the result from the hash table keys later.
12:16:12 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Sure, but if you want to store both an array and a set, you can do that.
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12:16:30 <shachaf> The same transformation applies to both algorithms.
12:16:35 <wib_jonas> shachaf: or you can permute randomly afterwards
12:16:36 <shachaf> Or, hmm, maybe I'm just saying nonsense.
12:18:56 <shachaf> Anyway, if you don't care about the order of the elements, you can just store a hash table, without the dense array, for the algorithm you described.
12:18:58 <wib_jonas> TAOCP 3.4.2. exercise 16. and it asks for a sorted output, so that Floyd thing is acceptable for that
12:19:10 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, and you only store keys in the hash table, not values
12:20:18 <shachaf> I do not have TAOCP unfortunately.
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12:22:45 <shachaf> So this is presented as an exercise, not a full thing discussed in the main text?
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12:23:10 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes
12:23:15 <wib_jonas> the dense case is in the main text
12:23:20 <int-e> wib_jonas: again, I wrote that code not to be fast but to be clear and simple
12:23:22 <shachaf> I guess it has no obligation to be complete.
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12:23:42 <int-e> wib_jonas: because I didn't understand why the sampling was uniform when it was phrased in terms of a set
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12:25:04 <shachaf> Is the dense case "do a Fisher-Yates shuffle, but stop once you've shuffled the last k elements of the array"?
12:25:21 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes
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12:25:45 <wib_jonas> The main text also discusses the problem where you read N records in sequence once and want to keep k random records from them, but you don't know N in advance
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12:26:18 <shachaf> The thing called reservoir sampling?
12:26:47 <wib_jonas> yes
12:26:54 <wib_jonas> and wait, I might be wrong here about the dense case, let me reread
12:28:46 <shachaf> A lot of these things seem almost too simple to have names.
12:29:19 <int-e> Oh the "Add file" UI isn't new, it's just much more visible now.
12:29:39 <wib_jonas> the main text says "Algorithm P can easily be modified to yield a random permutation of a
12:29:39 <wib_jonas> random combination" where Algorithm P is the shuffle
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12:30:20 <wib_jonas> shachaf: they don't really have names to me, I just look them up in Knuth and refer to a chapter number or algorithm in a chapter number or an exercise in a chapter number
12:30:38 <wib_jonas> TAOCP is one of the bibles for this, so those references are as good as canonical names
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12:32:38 <wib_jonas> sure, a few of them also have fancy names
12:32:56 <shachaf> I mean, nothing wrong with naming things, but I think I came up with simple versions of both Fisher-Yates shuffles and reservoir sampling when I first thought about these problems.
12:33:09 <wib_jonas> we need those fancy names to be able to mention them in the short description of what will be in the exam
12:33:10 <shachaf> Not that that means it was trivial originally, of course.
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12:34:16 <shachaf> Anyway, Floyd's algorithm I did not come up with, even though it's super duper simple and (in retrospect) obviously the right thing.
12:34:29 <wib_jonas> Remembering which name refers to what theorem was actually non-trivial for me for the calculus exams, and I think the dual problem of writing concise but clear names on the exam topic sheet is also nontrivial.
12:34:42 <shachaf> I mean, I read the algorithm, didn't understand it, and then realized that it was "obviously" correct in the shower the next day.
12:35:06 <wib_jonas> Because, as they say, programming has two hard problems, naming, off-by-one errors, and caching.
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12:36:18 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75737&oldid=65587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) ok
12:36:27 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, the paper I linked to actually mentions a variation of your variation.
12:36:41 <esowiki> [[Lisp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75738&oldid=70712 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
12:36:45 <shachaf> On the third page, "Floyd's Permutation Algorithm".
12:36:50 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I'll have to look at that later then
12:36:58 <wib_jonas> good thing we have channel logs
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12:45:56 <esowiki> [[Obfuna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75746&oldid=75724 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) "a unary" is correct, "yoonary" has a consonant start sound
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13:41:18 <int-e> Oh, I found my slitherlink solver.
13:41:59 <int-e> It's Haskell, uses an unpublished minisat binding, and has snarky comments that are pretty useless.
13:42:58 <int-e> But, for posterity: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/SL.hs
13:44:48 <int-e> I wonder what the input format was.
13:53:51 <int-e> (it's the dimenstions on two lines, then the puzzle constraints as digits, with '4' for no constraint)
13:54:26 <int-e> (but I have no sample inputs. not that it matters because I won't be compiling this anyway)
14:05:16 <arseniiv> <int-e> It's Haskell, uses an unpublished minisat binding, and has snarky comments that are pretty useless. => rofoldr
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18:33:08 <b_jonas> I have a musing about programming concept where I want to explain to you #esoteric teddy bear style, and ask for references and names
18:35:18 <b_jonas> you know how all APLs have this feature where a lot of basic operations, including most arithmetic like multiplication, automatically maps over arrays, so if you write (x + y) where y is an array then that's the same as (map (x +) y)
18:35:43 <b_jonas> only this gets more complicated because of multi-dimensional arrays and because of uncurried multi-arity functions
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19:19:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: please go on
19:21:43 <arseniiv> finally I sat up to listen to a recording of a course on Clifford algebras but this is just the introduction and overview I hadn’t yet climbed over (in that course). Want my knowledge on them be systematic and general, and hopefully I’ll get spinors after it
19:21:48 <b_jonas> sorry I am sidetracked 
19:21:54 <b_jonas> I'll return
19:22:40 <arseniiv> oh, and there is some bibliography!
19:25:41 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW that’s an interesting topic for a language design—an unambiguous notation for various function actions which is simple to use. What APL does may be one extreme and what e. g. Haskell does may be another (though with careful type classes, one can make (+) work in interesting ways and at the same time not too mysteriously)
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19:31:56 <b_jonas> Anyway, so in APL all arrays are mapped over like this, but there's also a possible design where ordinary arrays don't have this property, but you have a special type of immutable arrays that does this, and ways to convert both ways. The only language I know that clearly takes this path is perl6, where the latter kind are called junctions. J and its boxed arrays are somewhat similar, but in J the 
19:32:02 <b_jonas> default array type is the unboxed one that does map through.
19:32:50 <b_jonas> Now you could also imagine a language where the mapping is done not in the primitives but in every function by default, so if you define a function the simplest way, it will map over all its array arguments, but you can define special kinds of functions that don't do this and let you introspect an array eg. index it.
19:34:08 <b_jonas> Of course for some functions, mapping outside and mapping inside are equivalent, or are related by transposing the axis of the results, and in those cases an interpreter may transparently optimize between them, in both directions in fact because sometimes one is better sometimes the other, and 
19:35:11 <b_jonas> it can even optimize to the middle ground where it breaks an input array to L1-cache-sized chunks and calls the function for each chunk, looping over the elements of the chunks in the primitives that the function calls.
19:36:19 <b_jonas> Now there's another phenomenon: perl 5 has lists where if you pass the list to an ordinary function, it will automatically splat it to multiple arguments. Mathematica has that kind of list too, IIRC called List, but it's not the default kind of array. In both cases, there are some functions and/or builtins 
19:36:56 <b_jonas> where arguments aren't splatted, and these can be used to introspect such a list, although a vararg function can introspect them too if you have vararg functions.
19:37:20 <b_jonas> You can even do this one with static typing if you only allow this sort of list to have a length known at compile time.
19:37:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: in Mathematica, it should be a Sequence if I understood correctly
19:38:19 <b_jonas> Now what I'd like to know is if there's a name for these two types of immutable arrays, and/or the phenomenon where a language has them. I think the former is called "array languages", that's the grouping for APL and matlab/octave.
19:38:34 <b_jonas> Iirc maple also has the latter kind of lists.
19:38:38 <b_jonas> But I'm not sure about that.
19:38:51 <b_jonas> And there's a third phenomenon, which is not about lists, but might be related here.
19:39:50 <b_jonas> Namely in Mathematica, when you call an ordinary function, it first evaluates each of the arguments that you pass, just like an ordinary function in any language, and this applies to new functions you define. But you can define special macro-like functions that don't do this, and they can do anything they want with their unevaluated arguments. 
19:40:31 <b_jonas> Normal languages either always evaluate the arguments of functions before calling, which is eager evaluation, or postpone evaluating them to when they're first needed, which is lazy evaluation, 
19:40:49 <b_jonas> but some languages like scheme allow you to define macros that do neither, and can introspect their unevaluated arguments.
19:41:49 <b_jonas> Mathematica also has a simple container that contains one unevaluated value, called Hold, and maple sort of has its equivalent, backticks, except that in maple, there are some arithmetic evaluation rules that are always done even inside backticks.
19:42:42 <b_jonas> And I think cpressey has a language where functions are primarily macro-like, but the standard library has a macro to define a lambda function, which is a special kind of macro that always evaluates its arguments before doing anything else.
19:43:02 <b_jonas> (And doesn't access the unevaluated arguments in any way other than throught their evaluations.)
19:43:40 <arseniiv> Mathematica went even further and added Defer in ≈v8 which works thus: Defer[e] evaluates into unevaluated e and then you can evaluate it once more and that will evaluate e
19:43:41 <b_jonas> So I'd also like to know the name of this feature, or more examples for any of the above.
19:44:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah, I know an example for that primitive!
19:44:49 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor)
19:45:05 <b_jonas> Also there's TeX, in which normal functions that you define are macro-like, they don't evaluate their argument
19:45:58 <b_jonas> Of course if everything is macro-like then the question is, how do you actually call those macros
19:46:06 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think languages with sufficiently lispy macros may have several different approaches to the second thing too, though the good way I think is to treat arguments as valid ASTs. Sequence-like splats were in some lispy languages too
19:46:15 <b_jonas> and TeX's answer is, the top level evaluates a macro call
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19:47:10 <arseniiv> Weyl algebras
19:47:11 <b_jonas> also SIMPLE is somewhat based on m4, which also has this defer feature
19:47:11 <zzo38> Well, expansion evaluates macro calls, and expansion can sometimes occur inside of other stuff too. Some tokens are unexpandable and are executed only after they reach the top level, though.
19:47:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, inside romannumeral IIRC, which you can use as a kludge to initiate expansion in a place that doesn't normally expand anything
19:49:23 <b_jonas> frankly I don't really understand how TeX works, and I understand METAFONT to an even lesser degree. the latter has to do with TeX/METAFONT's localized tokens combined that interacts with the expansion and with multi-token names in a way that I don't understand
19:49:26 <zzo38> Well, \romannumeral will expand its argument, and is expandable, but it won't expand if expansion is suppressed.
19:49:58 <b_jonas> I am not a TeX hacker and really don't feel how TeX programming works
19:50:15 <zzo38> One way to expand something when expansion is normally suppressed is to use \expandafter, and you can also use \edef or \xdef to expand the definition of a macro at definition time, rather than later
19:50:34 <b_jonas> but there's some really interesting esoteric parts of TeX and METAFONT that might be worth for someone to study for furthering esoteric languages
19:51:44 <zzo38> In METAFONT, you can define a macro to evaluate its arguments either before expanding its definition or to don't do that; if the type of argument is expr then it will evaluate it and substitute a "capsule" where its name occurs inside of its body.
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19:53:16 <arseniiv> that it is Knuth who devised TeX in all its esotericity is bothering
19:54:06 <b_jonas> arseniiv: why?
19:54:35 <b_jonas> I mean that's one of the defining features of Knuth
19:54:51 <arseniiv> hmm well he wanted to write software to be simple I hope
19:55:22 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I mean that's one of the defining features of Knuth => is MIX as esoteric? I haven’t look at it in detail and assumed it’s pretty normal
19:55:33 <b_jonas> simple in what sense? he had a goal, to be able to typeset TAOCP vol 2 and further volumes. he made whatever he could for that. 
19:56:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv: MIX isn't esoteric, but it's old, in the sense that TeX is old in that it doesn't have lambdas and lexically local variables because back then those weren't standard features of an interpreted language
19:56:28 <arseniiv> I see
19:56:44 <b_jonas> MMIX may be esoteric, and I argue for that it is in the wiki article, but it's stealth esoteric in that it does a good attempt at the esotericness being plausibly deniable,
19:57:13 <b_jonas> to make it seem like it could be a real machine, but make it subtly impractical to make sure it will never be a real machine on hardware, or at least not one that spreads.
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19:58:23 <b_jonas> If MIX is esoteric in that sense, then I'm too old to notice that, I don't know much about archeological computer design, and don't recognize any way how it's not like what could be a real computer at that time.
19:58:46 <b_jonas> Maybe someone who designed computers back then and really understood what that entails would notice such details.
20:00:03 <zzo38> There are some features I don't know if it is, such as automatic character set conversion, and having the possibility of both binary and decimal versions of the same kind of computer, but maybe they are, I don't know
20:01:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: what do you mean by automatic character set conversion? any Hollerith card reader does that, because there are 12 holes but the reader encodes them in an Ebcdic byte that has less than 12 bits. MIX just uses an encoding to a character code that isn't used elsewhere.
20:02:11 <zzo38> Yes, but MIX doesn't use EBCDIC.
20:02:40 <b_jonas> it uses a similar encoding that is easy to encode or decode between Hollerith cards, at least on a decimal MIX
20:03:04 <b_jonas> for letters and numbers, bottom hole encodes the second digit, top hole if any encodes first digit
20:03:31 <b_jonas> it differs because EBCDIC is an eight-bit encoding and MIX has six-bit bytes
20:03:46 <b_jonas> and EBCDIC has a shitton of variants, like ASCII has a lot of ISO-646-* variants
20:04:22 <b_jonas> MIX character code probaly has variants with different printers printing different ones, and possibly for Hollerith cards too
20:04:49 <b_jonas> since some codes don't correspond to characters, or correspond to characters that not all card readers or card punchers or printers or teletypes can read/write
20:05:38 <b_jonas> that's why the two different version of what two of the three greek characters in the character sets are isn't necessarily a bug, there may be MIX printers with different characters of the corresponding head or place of the head
20:06:06 <b_jonas> just like how 8-bit computers have video cards with different accented characters in some places by different ROMs
20:06:46 <b_jonas> there are 8-bit BASIC-based personal computers where instead of @ they display an É or something
20:07:07 <b_jonas> and you have to write PRINTÉ instead of PRINT@ to write to a text file
20:07:32 <b_jonas> but the difference isn't in how BASIC works, just what character is shown on the monitor
20:11:48 <zzo38> But I think how some of the punctuations are encoded in MIX are not a standard card code, nor is the encoding of spaces matching codes of punch cards
20:12:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: is that even for punctuation that all MIX card readers are required to be able to read?
20:13:10 <zzo38> I do not remember, unfortunately. But, I suppose that is a valid point.
20:14:16 <b_jonas> Also, crap, my lip is swollen. If this worsense too much doesn't improve soon enough, I'll have to go to a weekend doctor or dentist, which always sucks.
20:14:30 <b_jonas> It started to swell during the afternoon.
20:18:54 <b_jonas> And the swelling is moving around my lip, counterclockwise when viewed from the font
20:18:57 <b_jonas> from the front
20:26:09 <arseniiv> oh
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21:23:52 <b_jonas> and if the swelling worsens a lot, then I'll need a night dentist/doctor, which is even worse
21:24:09 <b_jonas> but that's true for just about any condition that may need a weekend doctor
21:47:31 <b_jonas> Is there a M:tG card that gives both you and the opponent an advantageous effect, but one of you get to choose who gets which one?
21:48:37 <zzo38> I don't know, but, maybe, make up such a card.
22:00:35 <esowiki> [[Eval]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75805&oldid=73752 * Bangyen * (+99) 
22:01:00 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75806&oldid=75722 * Bangyen * (+11) 
22:13:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75807&oldid=75720 * Bangyen * (+64) /* Examples */
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23:37:51 <esowiki> [[*brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75808&oldid=34061 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) knil
23:38:41 <esowiki> [[From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75809&oldid=35160 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) nolc
23:39:30 <esowiki> [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75810&oldid=69685 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-193) stub template
23:40:11 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75811&oldid=69692 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
23:40:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75812&oldid=75685 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* yrotsiH */
23:41:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75813&oldid=75812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) fix/* =yrotsiH */
23:42:44 <esowiki> [[Jelly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75814&oldid=49881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) inter wiki
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23:46:33 <shachaf> `"
23:46:35 <HackEso> 1/1:817) <elliott> i wrote a better version once but it was broken \ 77) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
23:46:43 <shachaf> `5 w
23:46:46 <HackEso> 1/2:tc//Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally. \ j//J started out as a synonym for I, but then branched out into an array of other uses. \ internationale//You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee. \ boredome//The Boredome is a dangerous place swarming with woodpeckers, dentists, and bookworms. \ stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is t
23:46:50 <shachaf> `n
23:46:51 <HackEso> 2/2:he main reason why the often look so ackward.
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23:56:15 <esowiki> [[7Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75815&oldid=65115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) (Cat and bold and link and fix_hw)()
23:56:40 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75816&oldid=58740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
23:57:52 <esowiki> [[6ix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75817&oldid=69810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Link bold
23:58:47 <esowiki> [[5-logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75818&oldid=20653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Cat

2020-07-11:

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00:35:37 <esowiki> [[Turing-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75820&oldid=22780 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) 
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00:37:22 <esowiki> [[Pyth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75822&oldid=65771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
00:37:39 <esowiki> [[Pyth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75823&oldid=75822 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Fix/* Documentation */
00:38:23 <esowiki> [[CJam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75824&oldid=53582 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Turing-completeness */
00:42:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75825&oldid=75804 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) 
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02:42:08 <esowiki> [[Movesum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75826&oldid=72731 * Bangyen * (+129) /* Hello World ASCII values */
02:42:35 <esowiki> [[Movesum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75827&oldid=75826 * Bangyen * (+0) /* Infinite numeric cat */
02:51:13 <esowiki> [[Movesum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75828&oldid=75827 * Bangyen * (-3) /* Cat until EOF (0) */
02:56:19 <esowiki> [[Movesum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75829&oldid=75828 * Bangyen * (+101) 
02:56:46 <esowiki> [[Movesum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75830&oldid=75829 * Bangyen * (-2) 
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05:05:28 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75832 * RocketRace * (+1152) Create page (I'm sorry)
05:07:24 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75833&oldid=75832 * RocketRace * (+4) Formatting
05:10:49 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75834&oldid=75833 * RocketRace * (+126) Add Hello World
05:17:13 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75835&oldid=75138 * RocketRace * (+102) add Esolangs
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06:23:45 <esowiki> [[The Temporary Stack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75836&oldid=69245 * Bangyen * (-3) /* Cat */
06:25:30 <int-e> Oh, Schlock Mercenary is borrowing from Lord of the Rings now? :-)
06:27:47 <esowiki> [[The Temporary Stack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75837&oldid=75836 * Bangyen * (+99) 
06:33:23 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75838&oldid=75831 * Bangyen * (+75) /* Implementations */
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06:57:31 <zzo38> I don't really like PDF and DjVu, so I wrote my own specification at http://sprunge.us/WIUtPk with my own ideas about how to make up a improved format.
06:59:12 <deschutron> Well it's a start.
06:59:32 <deschutron> What would you like to better than PDF and DjVu?
07:00:51 <zzo38> Well, read what I wrote and you can see how is better, I hope.
07:04:24 <Arcorann> I'd like a bit more explanation about what aspects of PDF and DjVu are considered problematic (also, insert XKCD Standards comic here)
07:07:02 <zzo38> Well, PDF is just really messy, I think.
07:07:56 <zzo38> But there are other things not very good with it. DjVu is better in many ways, but it has its own problems.
07:09:06 <zzo38> Some of the features I described in my document are based on features in PDF and DjVu, although they are made improved.
07:09:41 <zzo38> Such as, it is a raster format to be able to use compression to encode the same picture at multiple resolutions (you can also encode only one resolution, if wanted).
07:13:11 <zzo38> I also don't like how annotation highlighting works in PDF and DjVu, and as far as I can tell in DjVu there is the ambiguity of whether a number refers to a page number or a page name; my own specification avoids this ambiguity.
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07:55:31 <int-e> rain1: look at this view: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr-fire-exit.png
07:56:04 <rain1> ah I don't think I've reached that yet
07:56:29 <shachaf> int-e: Did you restart?
07:56:29 <int-e> rain1: you're on that area to the north
07:56:35 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75839 * The Esolanger * (+780) Created ny first esolang! WIP
07:56:38 <int-e> shachaf: afraid so
07:56:52 <int-e> it seems easier the second time
07:57:26 <int-e> rain1: so you may have seen that blue tower to the far left
07:57:37 <int-e> rain1: that's where the sausage to unlock the area will be
07:58:09 <int-e> (you can see where the sausage goes as wel)
07:58:11 <int-e> *well.
07:58:52 <int-e> shachaf: though I wouldn't have had to... SSR keeps savegames after each completed level.
07:59:01 <int-e> So loading the one at 110 points would've worked.
07:59:32 <rain1> I am not sure about the blue tower, i don't remember that
08:01:18 <int-e> rain1: well I'm sure you can reach it, if the 105 point number is correct.
08:01:34 <int-e> but maybe you've just not explored this far
08:01:49 * int-e shrugs
08:03:40 <moony> bought physical manuals for the PDP-11 and VAX. I think I've got too absorbed with emulating them
08:06:15 <esowiki> [[Efghij]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75840&oldid=47121 * The Esolanger * (+83) A new object
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09:04:24 <b_jonas> moony: what? why do you need physical manuals?
09:04:55 <moony> why /not/?
09:05:14 <b_jonas> ok... how thick are they?\
09:05:43 <b_jonas> and how much of that describes hardware repairs that you don't have to do in emulation
09:06:15 <moony> not that big, the VAX and PDP-11 Architecture Handbooks
09:06:39 <moony> the VAX-11/780 Maintenance handbook is thick, but it's not exactly a "how 2 repair" guidebook
09:06:49 <moony> it's entirely documentation
09:08:00 <moony> I got a ton of them for about $2.5 a book so not exactly a bad deal
09:08:20 <b_jonas> also you have seen the PDP-11 emulator that is an appendix to the IOCCC 2018/mills entry, right?
09:08:29 <b_jonas> just in case you want to emulate it in an awkward way
09:08:32 <moony> heh
09:08:38 <moony> no thanks, VAX is a mess as it is
09:09:20 <b_jonas> no, that is a PDP-11 emulator, not a VAX emulator
09:09:50 <moony> I only need to do a subset of the PDP-11
09:09:54 <moony> not the whole thing
09:10:03 <moony> (VAX has a PDP-11 compat mode)
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09:48:09 <int-e> `"
09:48:12 <HackEso> 1/1:964) <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um  <elliott> ok i give up \ 265) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
09:48:16 <int-e> fungot: .
09:48:16 <fungot> int-e: i hate vine at each other? other than the usualy fnord. most superheroes start by getting: fnord and settings/ js/ fnord mission editor thingy was creating lots of tables.)
09:49:32 <int-e> `8ball is it?
09:49:34 <HackEso> Don't count on it.
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15:04:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Inxanedesu *  New user account
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17:28:29 <arseniiv> I accidentally started writing a specification for a SAT solver :o
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17:29:50 <arseniiv> was dumping ideas to a friend who wanted to write game rules for their backgammon impl declaratively and ended up with something in this vein
17:38:50 <arseniiv> there you have several user-specified types, some of which are iterable and others are “too big”, then you have user-specified primitive predicates with functional dependencies between their arguments specified, and finally user can define other predicates using these, boolean ops and ∀, ∃ and ∀! (and ∃! but for tic-tac-toe I ended up not using this one), where ∀!x. e means “∀x and it’s known statically that there are 
17:38:50 <arseniiv> no more than one x such that e”
17:38:50 <arseniiv> now, for each n-ary predicate, there exist 2^n potential implementations which take some arguments and iterate over tuples of remaining arguments which satisfy the predicate. The user can specify only some of them for the primitives, and they also should specify all kinds of goals they may want. Then the thing should compile all the necessary implementations or signal when there is no, including the case if a type needs to be iterated but
17:38:50 <arseniiv>  declared too big
17:39:23 <arseniiv> that’s pretty complex at this state and I don’t want to implement even a draft
17:43:28 <arseniiv> I ended up advicing to investigate an existing SAT solver with bindings for the chosen language (which is Common Lisp)
17:44:37 <adu> I like lisp
17:49:11 <arseniiv> ah, also I saw partial-functional dependencies are maybe even more useful than the “total-functional” ones, as for example there can be no winner for a position, but there is certanly no more than one, or there is no more than one possible move for each position (in tic-tac-toe, and that proven itself a good example to flesh the specification out and to investigate how it can be compiled concret
17:49:48 <arseniiv> wait, I mixed two different position senses
17:50:35 <arseniiv> in the first it means the full state of the board and in the second a board is given and what we’re choosing is a place on it
18:04:04 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75842&oldid=75839 * Bangyen * (-3) 
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20:24:18 <esowiki> [[RAM0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75843&oldid=57234 * Bangyen * (+99) 
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20:33:57 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75844&oldid=75838 * Bangyen * (+12) /* Implementations */
20:34:48 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75845&oldid=75844 * Bangyen * (+33) 
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21:22:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Canismajoriswiki *  New user account
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21:31:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75846&oldid=75723 * Canismajoriswiki * (+270) 
21:36:20 <esowiki> [[MindReadingFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75847&oldid=73463 * Canismajoriswiki * (+79) 
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23:31:28 <esowiki> [[Kov]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75848&oldid=68260 * Bangyen * (+33) /* In algorithmic information theory (a subfield of computer science), the Kolmogorov complexity of an object, such as a piece of text, is a measure of the computational resources needed to specify the object. */
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2020-07-12:

00:07:36 <esowiki> [[Keys]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75849&oldid=62183 * Bangyen * (+100) 
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02:38:46 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75850&oldid=75845 * Bangyen * (+30) /* Implementations */
02:53:38 <shachaf> int-e: Ah, now I agree that thinking of this algorithm as picking a permutation is obviously better.
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03:53:25 <zzo38> Book Mill {4} Artifact ;; Whenever you mill, if ~ is untapped, you gain that much life. ;; {4}: Mill 2 cards, and then put a card from your graveyard on the bottom of your library. This ability cannot be used if ~ is tapped. ;; Cycling {2}
04:03:21 <int-e> shachaf: My thinking was, the algorithm makes P(n,k) choices (permutations, k out of n), so if it's correct then there should be a bijection of runs to these permutations.
04:05:07 <shachaf> int-e: Right, once I thought that I realized it must be a permutation algorithm.
04:05:25 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFwHazFAPok (Nakamura plays Minesweeper) is a drinking game... count the number of times Nakamura says "last one"...
04:05:33 <shachaf> I wonder what one that makes P(n,k)/k! choices would look like.
04:06:44 <int-e> Hmm, hard to imagine, at least if those choices are supposed to be uniform.
04:07:11 <zzo38> In the Pokemon Pinball game, too many points can be earned in the Mewtwo stage. So, to avoid that, I play the Mewtwo stage without touching the flippers; you can try that if you want to.
04:07:18 <int-e> (non-uniformly you can break it down to binary choices which is relatively easy... pick the first element or not, unless forced)
04:08:04 <int-e> Which actually exists as an algorithm: to select k elements out of n, pick the first element with probability k/n, then proceed.
04:09:11 <Sgeo> Apparently in 2012 I posted "
04:09:11 <Sgeo> Can elephants juggle more than seven chainsaws?", and then made a comment about googling the entire question. That chat log is now the only result.
04:09:16 <int-e> (This is uniform in the end but relies on a non-uniform choice internally.)
04:09:54 <Sgeo> (My best first guess would be Triangle and Robert quote)
04:14:45 <int-e> hrm, there was a cute term for google queries with unique results... can't remember :-(
04:15:06 <esowiki> [[High Rise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75851&oldid=75816 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ mention [[Spiral Rise]], the new and improved version of this language
04:15:32 <Sgeo> Relatedly ohnorobot (comic search engine) is dead.
04:16:51 <Sgeo> No, just the embed on T&R
04:22:12 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75852&oldid=75774 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ punct
04:29:29 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75853&oldid=74306 * TwilightSparkle * (+96) /* Easy */
04:56:55 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75854&oldid=75137 * TwilightSparkle * (+158) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:05:32 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75855&oldid=75854 * TwilightSparkle * (+191) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:06:35 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75856&oldid=75855 * TwilightSparkle * (+78) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:10:56 <int-e> shachaf: the discouraging thing about trying to make C(n,k) choices uniformly when sampling combinations is that C(n,k) factors awkwardly. Things like... C(49,7) is divisible by 7, but C(56,7) is not...
05:12:12 <int-e> So I'm inclined to believe that there's no natural way to do this.
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06:23:49 <esowiki> [[Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75857&oldid=58724 * JimmyChaos * (+21) Added the category "thematic"
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06:25:56 <miracle2511> hello, is there any good C11 book for beginners?
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06:40:22 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75858&oldid=75842 * The Esolanger * (+187) Add New Commands
06:58:55 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75859&oldid=75858 * The Esolanger * (+321) Added jumping and ifs
06:59:53 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75860&oldid=75859 * The Esolanger * (+4) /* The Commands */
07:01:55 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75861&oldid=75860 * The Esolanger * (+23) Added category
07:14:05 <esowiki> [[6-5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75862 * The Esolanger * (+330) New Article!
07:15:11 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75863&oldid=75862 * The Esolanger * (+12) Added a list
07:15:40 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75864&oldid=75863 * The Esolanger * (+0) /* Instructions */
07:16:29 <zzo38> Perhaps, in TeXnicard the possibility should be added for change sets to be digitally signed.
07:31:12 <int-e> . o O ( TeXnicard is, surprisingly, neither vaporware nor written in SQLite. )
07:33:55 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75865&oldid=24136 * Amakukha * (+1276) copied from [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]]
07:35:51 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75866 * D * (+564) Created page with "[[DDuuaall]] is a language invented by [[User:A]], inspired by [https://github.com/JonoCode9374/Vyxal Vyxal]'s zipmap. == I/O Specifications == There's implicit input, but you..."
07:35:56 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75867&oldid=75865 * Amakukha * (+97) +categories
07:36:10 <zzo38> Well, TeXnicard uses SQLite, although it is mostly written in C; some parts are written in PostScript, though.
07:37:24 <imode> what exactly is TeXnicard.
07:37:44 <imode> I strive to have a project that I'm passionate about as long as you've been passionate/talkative about TeXnicard.
07:38:05 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75868&oldid=75866 * D * (+346) 
07:38:35 <zzo38> A Fossil repository can be found at:  http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui  Have you used Magic Set Editor or similar software? TeXnicard is an alternative program.
07:39:32 <imode> I have not.
07:39:37 <imode> don't even know what that is.
07:39:42 <zzo38> (The Fossil repository also has a description of it, and also includes full documentation and full source codes, so that you can see its working.)
07:40:04 <zzo38> It can be used to make cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering.
07:40:15 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75869&oldid=75868 * D * (+370) /* Hello, World! */
07:41:48 <zzo38> Does that help to explain it? Do you like to make up any custom cards for Magic: the Gathering?
07:42:49 <imode> I don't, but that's neat! really neat.
07:44:18 <zzo38> What about other card games?
07:45:25 <imode> I don
07:45:29 <imode> *don't play card games.
07:45:32 <zzo38> (There are, as far as I know, two other alternatives to MSE as well, although I do not know much about them.)
07:45:43 <zzo38> imode: O, OK.
07:46:14 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75870&oldid=75867 * Amakukha * (+374) 
07:46:47 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75871&oldid=75869 * D * (+566) 
07:47:06 <esowiki> [[Timeline of golfing languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75872&oldid=64652 * Amakukha * (+8) 
07:47:31 <esowiki> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75873&oldid=73001 * Amakukha * (+4) /* APL */
07:51:37 <zzo38> In writing TeXnicard, I found a bug in Ghostscript with the printobject and writeobject commands, which I have managed to fix, so if you use those commands and you use Ghostscript, then maybe you might find this patch useful.
07:53:04 <zzo38> (The bug can be fixed without recompiling Ghostscript, since the patch is implemented purely in PostScript.)
07:55:33 <zzo38> If you know anyone who is interested in my software, see if they would like to see it and/or to help with it.
07:58:35 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75874&oldid=75870 * Amakukha * (+266) 
08:02:15 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75875&oldid=67565 * Amakukha * (+4) 
08:03:08 <esowiki> [[J-bot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75876&oldid=67393 * Amakukha * (+23) 
08:03:34 <esowiki> [[Vafix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75877&oldid=75875 * Amakukha * (+22) 
08:04:03 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75878&oldid=75874 * Amakukha * (+22) 
08:04:10 <esowiki> [[Jelly]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75879&oldid=75814 * Amakukha * (+22) 
08:05:13 <esowiki> [[Category:APL-like]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75880 * Amakukha * (+22) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]]"
08:05:37 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75881&oldid=75878 * Amakukha * (+23) 
08:06:44 <esowiki> [[Inca]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75882&oldid=40996 * Amakukha * (+25) 
08:07:31 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75883&oldid=75711 * Amakukha * (+4) 
08:08:41 <esowiki> [[ParScript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75884&oldid=34958 * Amakukha * (+4) /* Description */
08:09:15 <esowiki> [[Arity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75885&oldid=71443 * Amakukha * (+4) 
08:16:13 <esowiki> [[LYaPAS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75886&oldid=25396 * Amakukha * (+26) 
08:16:42 <esowiki> [[Unilinear]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75887&oldid=23222 * Amakukha * (+4) /* History */
08:18:12 <int-e> hmm, software infelicity of the day? mplayer has a -softvol option that causes volume is adjusted in software. but when playing multiple file, the volume is reset between files :-/
08:21:50 <zzo38> Do you have to specify the -softvol option for each file, then?
08:22:25 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75888&oldid=75745 * Amakukha * (+4) /* APL */
08:23:55 <int-e> zzo38: no it means I have to use -volume if I want to use -softvol and adjust the volume to something other than the default, rather than adjusting the volume on the fly using the / and * keys.
08:24:02 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75889&oldid=75881 * Amakukha * (+56) 
08:24:56 <esowiki> [[Category:1962]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75890 * Amakukha * (+18) Created page with "[[Category:Years]]"
08:26:14 <zzo38> I should think that if you adjust the volume while it is playing, it ought to keep the setting when the next file is played, at least by default.
08:27:02 <int-e> yes, but it doesn't.
08:53:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Bauripalash *  New user account
09:03:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75891&oldid=75846 * Bauripalash * (+300) Added my introduction
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09:10:32 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75892 * Bauripalash * (+144) Added first edits
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09:15:52 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75893&oldid=75892 * Bauripalash * (+4) 
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09:24:25 <ondroed_> fungot do you have a stable irc access on your phone?
09:24:25 <fungot> ondroed_: that's already null terminated, isn't it? you can just try to keep it
09:24:41 <ondroed_> oops wrong nick
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09:27:21 <fake_arseniiv> I thing those awful disconnects of old should have been the work of the old router. I don't see any this time
09:28:28 <fake_arseniiv> so I'll be able to spam here while not home, finally
09:33:22 <fake_arseniiv> > exp (Complex 0 (2 * pi))
09:33:24 <lambdabot>  error:
09:33:24 <lambdabot>      Data constructor not in scope: Complex :: Integer -> Double -> a
09:34:59 <fake_arseniiv> > exp (Complex 0.0 (2 * pi))
09:35:00 <lambdabot>  error:
09:35:01 <lambdabot>      Data constructor not in scope: Complex :: Double -> Double -> a
09:35:19 <fake_arseniiv> ah, now I see
09:36:09 <fake_arseniiv> should have seen from the start, actually. No Num constraints etc.
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09:36:31 <esowiki> [[6-5]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75894&oldid=75864 * Bangyen * (+1) 
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10:29:48 <b_jonas> > exp (0.0 :+ (2 * pi))
10:29:50 <lambdabot>  1.0 :+ (-2.4492935982947064e-16)
10:39:46 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75895&oldid=75871 * A * (+757) 
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10:45:38 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75896&oldid=75895 * A * (+604) 
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10:49:05 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75897&oldid=75896 * A * (+539) 
10:52:57 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75898&oldid=75897 * A * (+158) /* Special Arity Rules */
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11:32:22 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75899&oldid=75101 * A * (+69) /* Instruction list */
11:38:23 <arseniiv> int-e: shachaf: do SAT or SMT solvers usually have means to iterate all possible solutions, not just give a single model if one exists?
11:39:29 <arseniiv> hm wait lambdabot haven’t said I have messages :\
11:40:10 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey wow this sounds interesting! but I haven’t understood what it means yet
11:40:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:41:49 <int-e> arseniiv: the latter. one reason is that enumeration doesn't work well with restarts (which the solvers tend to do... a lot)
11:42:59 <arseniiv> int-e: thank you!
11:43:11 <int-e> arseniiv: but they often have an incremental mode, where you can alternate between checking satisfiability (with model) and adding new constraints. So if there are few models you can rule out the ones you've seen with an additional constraint and continue.
11:43:35 <int-e> For example, this works well for checking uniqueness of solutions of puzzles.
11:44:40 <arseniiv> int-e: is there a way to enumerate all possible moves for a given position in e. g. checkers or backgammon?
11:45:26 <arseniiv> maybe an advanced SMT solver language may express it directly?.. and you have a single solution which contains the list of moves
11:45:33 <int-e> nah
11:46:20 <arseniiv> so then my Prolog-esque (and totally unimplemented) thing may be a better solution as I feared
11:46:37 <int-e> Well, I say "nah" but really I just don't know of anything like this.
11:47:11 <int-e> It does sound more like Prolog. Answer set programming may be relevant, I never figured out what that is exactly.
11:47:53 <arseniiv> answer set programming, haven’t heard about that yet
12:15:32 <esowiki> [[MewMew]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75900&oldid=75893 * Bauripalash * (+626) added infobox
12:18:41 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75901&oldid=75900 * Bauripalash * (-26) Fixed code examples
12:21:54 <esowiki> [[MewMew]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75902&oldid=75901 * Bauripalash * (+84) Added Github Repo Link
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13:03:08 <shachaf> arseniiv: I think there are all sorts of tricks for model counting, but if you're just using a regular solver and not looking for a large number, you usually do the thing int-e said.
13:04:25 <shachaf> https://github.com/marijnheule/allsat is a modification of minisat that does it automatically.
13:04:52 <shachaf> (I also added this to my solver.)
13:06:39 <shachaf> I was considering extending the input format to let you mark which variables are important, so it would only negate those.
13:06:59 <shachaf> But so far I'm not using encodings that have this problem.
13:08:59 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75903&oldid=75899 * A * (-13) /* Instruction list */
13:09:49 <arseniiv> shachaf: interesting
13:14:55 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75904&oldid=75903 * A * (+52) /* Explanation */
13:16:44 <shachaf> Now I wonder how much disabling restarts is worth for model counting.
13:17:00 <shachaf> Probably not that much? Hmm.
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16:52:56 <arseniiv> a book has some strange vocabulary: (a module or an algebra) “reduces to zero”, “isomorphy”
16:55:03 <b_jonas> > exp (0.0 :+ (2 * pi)) -- arseniiv:
16:55:06 <lambdabot>  1.0 :+ (-2.4492935982947064e-16)
16:55:52 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks, though my mermory is short
16:56:34 <arseniiv> if I wrote in Haskell more regularly, I’d should known it by heart
16:57:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: in that case, try the documentation: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.6.3/docs/html/libraries/base-4.6.0.1/Data-Complex.html https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch17.html#x25-21800017
16:58:19 <b_jonas> they're not perfect, but they forget less 
16:58:30 <b_jonas> also, did you have a question about J and did you get an answer for it?
16:58:33 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you :′)
16:58:38 <b_jonas> or more like, do you still have a J question?
16:59:04 <b_jonas> I'll AFK for 90 minutes so I won't answer immediately, just wondering
16:59:05 <arseniiv> I usually search in there with hoogle anyway, I just wrote from the phone that time :D
16:59:27 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> also, did you have a question about J and did you get an answer for it? => hm I think no
17:00:14 <arseniiv> maybe I don’t remember what of my questions might have been related to J…(??)
17:04:39 <b_jonas> I'll check the logs, it was probably someone else then
17:31:52 <zzo38> I like that Heirloom-mailx allows specifying pipes in many cases where a filename is expected. Why don't many other programs do things like that?
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18:00:02 <t20kdc> zzo38: because they have forgotten their roots
18:00:30 <t20kdc> (or assume that /dev/stdin and /dev/stdout is available on the system and it's thus not-their-problem)
18:01:20 <t20kdc> to be honest I suspect it'd be more of a problem if shells were more configurable in regards to complex pipelines
18:01:26 <zzo38> t20kdc: For non-interactive software, using stdin/stdout works fine, but many programs have an interactive mode.
18:01:37 <zzo38> (Heirloom-mailx is interactive.)
18:01:53 <t20kdc> zzo38: then... if pipes are being specified, how?
18:02:58 <zzo38> In the case of Heirloom-mailx, when you tell it to save attachments, it will ask you for the filename for each one (with the default filename filled in, but it can be removed); if you write something starting with | then you can specify a pipe instead.
18:03:14 <zzo38> (For example, you can write |display to display a picture.)
18:03:20 <t20kdc> ooooh, I see
18:04:23 <t20kdc> that seems specific to interactive terminal applications, but when that is the case, that definitely sounds useful
18:04:48 <t20kdc> I was thinking you meant in terms of non-interactive applications, which definitely have a problem with complex pipeline routing
18:05:15 <t20kdc> specifically, the solution seems to be "more mkfifo"
18:05:38 <t20kdc> ...which is not very universally applicable
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19:08:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Category:1962]]": early esolangs are grouped into [[Category:Before 1993]]
19:08:48 <esowiki> [[APL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75905&oldid=75889 * Ais523 * (+7) cat
19:13:38 <arseniiv> how do you call a linear combination with zero weight sum?
19:14:04 <arseniiv> I think I heard “neutral combination” but I’m not sure at all
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20:39:49 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75906&oldid=30380 * Bangyen * (-1067) 
20:40:59 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75907&oldid=75625 * Bangyen * (-1367) /* Polynomial */
20:42:00 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75908&oldid=75907 * Bangyen * (+27) /* PlusOrMinus */
20:43:48 <b_jonas> zzo38, t20kdc: my opinion is that most of the things that you want to do with pipes you can already do with shell piplines and the other shell feature (foo <(bar)), then you should probably use a regular file, and that people should trust that OSes handle temporary regular files efficiently these days.
20:44:40 <b_jonas> but on the other hand, for interactive programs like ed or vim, it probably does make sense to add commands to read/write from piped command lines, so that might apply in the case you mentioned originally
20:50:21 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75909&oldid=75908 * Bangyen * (+157) 
21:09:36 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75910&oldid=75906 * Bangyen * (+1747) 
21:11:08 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75911&oldid=75850 * Bangyen * (+18) /* Implementations */
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21:34:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: For non-interactive programs, you are certainly correct; you can use the shell features.
21:35:56 <zzo38> Interactive programs that support specifying piped commands do include ed and vim, as well as Heirloom-mailx, and some programs I wrote myself (such as bystand, and the interactive mode of TeXnicard), but many newer programs unfortunately don't support such thing.
21:37:33 <b_jonas> such as most interactive editors
21:38:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, it can help for domain-specific programming languages too, TeX has such an extension these days
21:38:38 <b_jonas> even when they're not interactive
21:38:57 <b_jonas> general purpose programming languages of course already have such a feature, and I do use it often
21:39:41 <b_jonas> I even found out that Windows 7 uses a tiny pipe buffer by default, and if you want to send large amounts of data through a pipe with performance, you have to increase it with a system call
21:39:51 <zzo38> Yes, although TeX does have an interactive mode too. Ghostscript also provides the %pipe% device which is a nonstandard extension to PostScript, and Ghostscript also has an interactive mode (which is a standard feature of PostScript, actually).
21:39:53 <b_jonas> linux has changed to a larger default buffer a while ago now
21:40:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I mean for TeX the popen extension is useful even without the interactive mode
21:40:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is useful even without the interactive mode.
21:41:17 <b_jonas> I used popens to ffmpeg and to qhull at work
21:41:39 <b_jonas> also ffplay, ffprobe, and imagemagick
21:41:55 <b_jonas> probably more
21:42:05 <zzo38> Isn't ffplay part of ffmpeg?
21:42:07 <b_jonas> oh yeah, also a popen to gnuplot
21:42:16 <b_jonas> yes, ffmpeg and ffprobe are the two other programs in ffmpeg
21:42:24 <b_jonas> I popened all three, and ffmpeg both for reading and for writing
21:42:44 <zzo38> How do you specify a pipe in TeX?
21:43:12 <b_jonas> also gnuplot, I wrote a weird development visualization program where I draw an animation with gnuplot, but control playback and settings real time with keystrokes on a command-line driver program
21:43:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't remember
21:43:45 <b_jonas> it's some kind of extension, not in Knuth's master version
21:44:46 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so
21:48:24 <zzo38> Best would probably be an extension to the syntax for filenames, since then it is still really TeX; some other extensions aren't TeX
21:48:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's possible that I was wrong, and it can only run shell commands, rather than popen them, and the man page says it has to do with \write18
21:49:03 <b_jonas> but I haven't looked up in detail how that works
21:49:16 <b_jonas> it's probably in one of the documentations installed with TeXlive and typeset with tex
21:51:01 <zzo38> Yes, I think I read that too, but it isn't very good and it contradicts the specification of TeX. (Being able to use pipes would be more useful though, that only to run shell commands.)
21:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it contradicts the specs, as it's optional and connected to a \write handle that a format could open by default, so it's like modifying a format
21:52:53 <b_jonas> and it will never be the default because of security reasons
21:52:59 <zzo38> Well, the problem (at least last time I checked) is a bug that occurs when that feature is disabled.
21:53:06 <b_jonas> oh?
21:53:22 <zzo38> (If that bug didn't occur, then it would be OK, I think.)
21:53:52 <zzo38> I don't remember the details of that bug, but I think it has to do with testing EOF.
22:00:00 <zzo38> Another bug is that if \write18 is disabled, then it should act the same as \write19, but instead it writes an error message to the log file.
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22:56:51 <zzo38> I have a different idea how to do it, which would probably result in a more useful way anyways, which is that \write18 writes the text to the log file and also copies the text into an internal buffer. If you then try to open the file called ::pipe for reading or writing, then it executes the command stored in the internal buffer and allows reading/writing the pipe.
22:59:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could try to implement some of that as a patch
22:59:26 <b_jonas> TeXlive is open source
23:01:09 <zzo38> Yes, I could do.
23:03:14 <zzo38> (Other similar extensions would also be possible, such as ::sql to be able to deal with SQL databases.)
23:05:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you use \write as the interface, then pipes are probably universal enough, because anything external that you may want to access by just writing text into a pipe you want as an external program so you can use it for things other than TeX, including an SQL interface
23:05:14 <b_jonas> but if you implement extensions, they can use something other than a \write interface
23:10:53 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75912&oldid=75911 * Bangyen * (+62) 
23:13:21 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75913&oldid=70266 * Bangyen * (+79) 
23:13:32 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75914&oldid=75913 * Bangyen * (-2) 
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23:18:48 <b_jonas> Question. What are the most popular video games where you play a member of a D&D-style small adventuring party, where other members of that party are played by the computer, and this happens in a symmetrical way, in that depending on your choices, you could play different characters in a similar adventuring groups, so at least two members are potentially PCs, and this is a primary mode, not something 
23:18:54 <b_jonas> badly tacked on to a multiplayer game?
23:18:57 <b_jonas> This doesn't restrict the genre too much.
23:21:47 <zzo38> Yes, they can; they could also be new commands. However there is the possibility that you might not want to change other stuff since it would be incompatible with other implementations of TeX, since some file might expect the working certain ways. (What I proposed pretty much guarantees that everything else continues to work, even if the extension isn't disabled.
23:22:08 <zzo38> (The two problems with the existing \write18 is that it seems to be write-only, and furthermore even if that feature is disabled, it doesn't work properly.)
23:22:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you have examples of such game (even if they are not so popular or well known)?
23:27:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know any examples, or at least can't think of any 
23:27:26 <b_jonas> but I don't play many such adventuring games
23:27:35 <b_jonas> not even ones where you control the whole party
23:52:15 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75915&oldid=75914 * Bangyen * (+784) /* Examples */
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2020-07-13:

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00:46:09 <esowiki> [[APL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75916&oldid=75905 * Amakukha * (+4) /* Example code */
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00:56:33 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75917&oldid=75915 * Bangyen * (+46) /* Hello, world! */
01:04:29 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75918&oldid=57564 * Amakukha * (+253) 
01:30:31 <zzo38> I thought of a idea of Magic: the Gathering card:   Enchant permanent attached to another permanent ;; Enchanted permanent has totem armor. ;; Recover {2}   But, I don't know what name or what mana cost.
01:41:02 <Cale> Hyena Umbra costs a single white mana, so maybe it could even be free? Unless there's something super-broken about it that I'm not seeing...
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01:48:46 <Cale> The cost is having to draw it at times when you don't have a suitable target
01:50:04 <Cale> Other options might be making it an equipment or giving it cycling
01:50:53 <Cale> oh, I guess it can't be an equipment exactly...
01:51:30 <zzo38> Yes, cycling might be worth to add, or otherwise changing recover to other stuff
01:52:26 <zzo38> Equipment doesn't work of course, but it can be attached to Equipment (if that Equipment is currently attached to a creature)
01:53:19 <Cale> I guess if you wanted to make it an equipment you could have it attach to a creature and then target another permanent attached to that creature when equipped
01:53:46 <Cale> But that's kinda awkward
01:53:58 <zzo38> Yes, but then it would be restricted to creatures that you control; it can't be used on stuff other than creatures or that you do not control.
01:54:02 <Cale> I was just thinking it would be nice to be able to move it around in response to stuff
01:54:25 <Cale> for some cost
01:55:08 <zzo38> Yes, maybe. Possibly retrace instead of recover was the other idea I thought of
01:56:55 <esowiki> [[Losescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75919&oldid=74822 * Bangyen * (+59) 
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04:45:01 <esowiki> [[6-5]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75920&oldid=75894 * The Esolanger * (+372) New Instructions
04:45:59 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75921&oldid=75920 * The Esolanger * (+0) /* Instructions */
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05:38:45 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75922&oldid=75921 * The Esolanger * (+574) Added hello world program
05:39:46 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75923&oldid=75922 * The Esolanger * (+8) /* Sample Programs */
05:56:18 <esowiki> [[Suffolk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75924&oldid=20028 * Bangyen * (+1638) 
06:06:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:6-5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75925 * Bangyen * (+184) Created page with "==Future Changes== Is it likely that the commands will change again? If not, I can write an interpreter. ~~~~"
06:06:47 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75926&oldid=75912 * Bangyen * (+15) /* Implementations */
06:07:37 <esowiki> [[Suffolk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75927&oldid=75924 * Bangyen * (+29) /* Hello, world! */
06:25:33 <esowiki> [[Suffolk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75928&oldid=75927 * Bangyen * (-2) 
06:49:05 <int-e> Hmm, caught up with myself in SSR. Still no clue about the next level.
06:50:57 <int-e> But I've found a list of levels. Apparently there are 86 in total. rain1's 105 sausages are around the 43 solved levels mark. I have 73.
06:51:30 <int-e> Maybe I should cheat and watch a solution video. This is annoying :)
06:56:42 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75929&oldid=75910 * Bangyen * (+262) 
06:58:52 <shachaf> What's the level you're on?
06:59:12 <shachaf> I think I didn't get as far as you, though.
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07:04:55 <int-e> The Backbone. https://www.speedrun.com/stephenssausageroll/individual_levels has a full list and the order is pretty forced around this point.
07:06:11 <int-e> Or 174 sausages, which may be easier to compare.
07:07:33 <int-e> (The past dozen or so levels I've played have a forced order.)
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07:22:32 <esowiki> [[BF+BF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75930&oldid=73695 * Bangyen * (+28) 
07:39:48 <esowiki> [[BF+BF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75931&oldid=75930 * Bangyen * (+194) 
07:40:13 <zzo38> Many years ago, someone told me that Hewlett-Packard was going to change its name to Windows-Packard, but I think they haven't change it. The same person told me that "tvm" is German for "TV monitor".
07:41:31 <myname> as a german, i have no idea what tvm is supposed to mean
07:44:29 <zzo38> I am not German, but I think probably "tvm" isn't a German word at all.
07:46:27 <int-e> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVM "Tunnelvortriebsmaschine" is good :-)
07:47:20 <zzo38> O, that is what it means in German (at least when it is written in uppercase letters).
07:47:21 <int-e> it sounds about as artificial as "tunnel advancement machine"
07:48:08 <int-e> zzo38: Honestly, no. I guess if you work in construction it may be, but I don't recall ever seeing that abbreviation... up until just now.
07:48:37 <zzo38> O, OK.
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08:20:11 <esowiki> [[BF+BF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75932&oldid=75931 * Bangyen * (-6) 
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09:03:03 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75933&oldid=75929 * Bangyen * (+10) 
09:09:07 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75934&oldid=74846 * Sinthorion * (+329) /* Examples */ Added e.rui
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09:24:41 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75935&oldid=75934 * Sinthorion * (-4) Links to Daniel Cristofani
09:40:25 <int-e> more SSR progress metrix, I'm at 54 minutes out of 1:17:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UAamG6cg5I
09:40:33 <int-e> cs ->x
09:40:41 <int-e> that saved a lot of typing effort
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11:20:19 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75936&oldid=74656 * A * (+2) 
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11:40:15 <esowiki> [[Keta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75937&oldid=75810 * A * (+1) /* Chain Rules */
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12:01:55 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75938&oldid=74232 * A * (-63) Isn't it prefix + infix (as per documentation)?
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12:56:35 <wib_jonas> hey guys, some rubber duck style questions about designing a toy language that probably counts as esoteric. 
12:59:52 <wib_jonas> firstly, in this language, I probably want to allow functions with multiple return values, even though probably none of the builtins or functions in the standard library will really use multiple returns. this can still make sense, right? I think it can because (1) scheme does this, (2) multiple returns can still be useful in functions for a larger
12:59:53 <wib_jonas> projects.
13:04:19 <Taneb> You have to think about how to define and how to use functions that return multiple values
13:05:40 <Taneb> And if a function can return a varying number of values
13:09:55 <wib_jonas> Taneb: yes, I did think of both of that, and that's why I think multiple return value functions would be a good match for the core language of this esoteric language. eg. you can imagine a stack-based language: multiple returns are trivial since it can just return on the stack. my language is not stack-based, but it's also not one where you use
13:09:55 <wib_jonas> algol/C-style nested parenthisized function calls, which is where multiple return values are hard.
13:10:21 <wib_jonas> multiple return values are also easy in a prolog-style language, where every intermediate result has a (local) name.
13:11:00 <wib_jonas> it may be easy or hard in a register-based low-level machine, depending on what sort of instructions you want.
13:26:39 <wib_jonas> I might have more questions, but I'm not sure how to ask them yet
13:26:39 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: hi! I agree multiple returns, if done right, are fairly indispensable
13:26:40 <arseniiv> they simplify matters even in μ-recursive functions formalism
13:26:40 <wib_jonas> may depend on what kind of language you have, but yeah
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13:28:04 <arseniiv> you might even remember that simplified formalism has function concatenation which takes N^n → N^m1 and N^n → N^m2 to N^n → N^(m1 + m2), and that composition there becomes just plain composition of two functions A → B → C because of allowing concatenation
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13:30:49 <arseniiv> hm have I dumped my version of it somewhere? I extended projection functions into very handy π_{i1 … im}(a1, …, an) = (a(i1), …, a(im)) with which you can now duplicate and permute values, not only project
13:32:12 <arseniiv> I don’t know why Manin haven’t seen this extension (I have seen the concatenative approach only in his writings so far), it lifts handiness further
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13:37:14 <wib_jonas> I see
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15:20:24 <myname> petri nets are TC, right? are there known lower bounds that need to be present for that?
15:21:39 <myname> like, is a petri net with only inhibitor arcs and transitions with 2 inputs and one output already tc?
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16:10:59 <arseniiv> once I was a bit interested in their languages and was pointed to Jörg P. Bachmann, Characterization of Petri Net Languages. Maybe that would be of some use
16:12:27 <myname> i will have a look, thx
16:12:36 <arseniiv> hm it seems there are only basic Petri nets discussed, no inhibitor arcs if I remember what they are
16:12:46 <arseniiv> this is a small article
16:13:37 <arseniiv> though I never read it thoroughly
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17:34:10 <esowiki> [[Brainflak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75939 * Sinthorion * (+24) Redirected page to [[Brain-Flak]]
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18:17:27 <int-e> Oh I figured out "The Backbone"... in retrospect, how did I ever get stuck on this one?
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18:45:13 <esowiki> [[Q]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75940&oldid=73167 * Amakukha * (+140) 
18:48:11 <esowiki> [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75941&oldid=75916 * Amakukha * (+17) /* Example code */
19:16:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75942&oldid=74916 * Orisphera * (+497) 
19:20:22 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75943&oldid=74641 * Orisphera * (+13) 
19:22:19 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75944&oldid=75926 * Bangyen * (+43) 
19:33:56 <esowiki> [[Bitdeque]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75945&oldid=74395 * Bangyen * (+1192) 
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20:21:45 <esowiki> [[Bitdeque]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75946&oldid=75945 * Bangyen * (-53) 
20:51:13 <imode> does anybody have any information on TRAC at all?
21:10:55 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75947&oldid=75944 * Bangyen * (+596) /* Implementations */
21:18:02 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75948&oldid=75947 * Bangyen * (-283) /* Implementations */
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21:21:54 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75949&oldid=75948 * Bangyen * (-7) /* Implementations */
21:26:40 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75950&oldid=75949 * Bangyen * (-16) 
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22:48:53 <int-e> Phew, finished SSR.
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23:11:53 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75951&oldid=74695 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+0) aesthetic
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2020-07-14:

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07:02:09 <Antebrationist> Do turing machines write a number or move the tape first?
07:02:24 <Antebrationist> Oh, zzo38, I'm working on a smaller Minsky Machine now.
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07:09:10 <int-e> What's the context for this? A Minsky machine doing what?
07:10:28 <int-e> Oh, back in May. 2020-05-03.txt:20:54:15 <Antebrationist8> I've completed the initialization of the Minsky machine, with 5 pointers.
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07:13:52 <int-e> Ah, I believe this is the Minsky machine in M:tG discussion.
07:14:44 <shachaf> hi int-e
07:15:08 <shachaf> Was The Backbone the hardest level, or is it more like you were stuck on it for silly reasons?
07:15:40 <int-e> shachaf: I think it was a new twist on a game mechanic, and the level made it hard to accidently find the twist.
07:15:59 <shachaf> Also, do you know what the minimum number of clues for a sudoku puzzle where a digit can't be a knight's move away from the same digit?
07:16:17 <int-e> (usually when I'm stuck on a level I do some more or less random exploration, trying out things that seem interesting with no clue what they'll achieve)
07:22:53 <int-e> Anyway, I've now watched the whole speedrun. Mostly very clean, streamlined solutions (some of my attempts involved a lot of shuffling of sausages), but no real new tricks I didn't already know :)
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08:00:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75952&oldid=75942 * Orisphera * (+6) 
08:11:57 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75953&oldid=73520 * Chris Pressey * (+427) Back to the drawing board
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08:12:31 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75954&oldid=75953 * Chris Pressey * (-169) not right now it doesn't
08:14:13 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75955&oldid=74515 * Chris Pressey * (+114) Note that this is broken.
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08:27:00 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75956&oldid=75898 * A * (+89) 
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08:28:50 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75957&oldid=75956 * A * (+19) /* Primalty Tester */
08:32:47 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75958&oldid=75957 * A * (-125) 
08:47:50 <shachaf> I like the way 2SAT is solvable by just doing regular DPLL, but never backtracking more than one level.
08:58:21 <shachaf> How many clauses of length > 2 do you need for SAT to be NP-complete?
09:00:38 <int-e> Well, SAT is in P for any fixed number of clauses of length > 2.
09:00:39 <myname> i'd say arbitrary many, because if you put an upper bound to it, there is an upper bound of the length of merged clauses
09:01:30 <int-e> (With k clauses of size n, you can try all choices of the positive literal for each clause in n^k calls to the 2SAT procedure.)
09:06:44 <shachaf> Hmm.
09:06:57 <shachaf> Sudoku is expressible using almost entirely 2-clauses, right?
09:07:14 <shachaf> You need one n-clause per cell to specify that a cell has at least one value, and that's it, I think.
09:07:33 <myname> i'm not sure about that
09:08:27 <myname> don't you need one n-clause per row/column/block?
09:08:51 <shachaf> You only need to say that there's at most one of each digit for each of those.
09:09:02 <shachaf> Which you can express with a bunch of 2-clauses.
09:09:09 <myname> how so?
09:10:52 <shachaf> (¬(0,0)=1 | ¬(0,1)=1) & (¬(0,0)=1 | ¬(0,2)=1) & ...
09:12:28 <myname> okay
09:13:06 <myname> but if n is the number of variables, you'd still need 3n clauses of size > 2, don't you?
09:13:11 <int-e> shachaf: true
09:13:56 <shachaf> For 9x9 sudoku the simple encoding has 9^3 variables and 9^2 clauses of length > 2.
09:14:34 <shachaf> Arbitrary sudoku is supposed to be NP-complete, right? I'm kind of surprised that you get that from a relatively small number of >2 clauses, though it does grow with the number of variables.
09:15:00 <int-e> If you generalize to a Sudoku of size nxn you end up with n^2 constraints of size n.
09:15:14 <shachaf> Right.
09:15:22 <int-e> (n = k*l if you have l*k boxes of size k*l)
09:15:31 <myname> shachaf: well, if you follow int-es reasoning above, you have n^n calls to 2sat
09:15:43 <myname> and n^n is no longer polynomial
09:15:55 <myname> (that doesn't mean there can not be another way)
09:15:58 <int-e> n^(2n), but that just makes it worse.
09:16:13 <int-e> err, what am I saying
09:16:15 <int-e> n^n^2
09:19:32 <int-e> Let's just do set cover. If k elements to cover and n sets, then you have a natural encoding with n variables indicating which sets to select, k constraints of size <= n (to ensure that each element is selected, and up to C(n,2) clauses of size 2 to ensure the selected sets don't overlap.
09:20:20 <int-e> If *there are* k elements...
09:22:36 <shachaf> Exact cover?
09:22:40 <int-e> yes
09:22:46 <shachaf> That does seem simpler.
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12:55:07 <esowiki> [[Left-or-right]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75959 * D * (+901) Created page with "[[Left-or-right]] is a very simple language [https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/users/20260/xnor xnor] made up. Its expression are made of arrows <code><</code> (left), <..."
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12:56:54 <esowiki> [[Left-or-right]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75960&oldid=75959 * D * (+302) 
13:00:39 <esowiki> [[Left-or-right]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75961&oldid=75960 * D * (+103) 
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16:23:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Code golf challenges]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75962 * Hakerh400 * (+12169) Code golf challenges
16:23:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75963&oldid=75400 * Hakerh400 * (+81) Code golf challenges
16:25:41 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Code golf challenges]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75964&oldid=75962 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Input */
16:26:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoticon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75965&oldid=23042 * Quadril-Is * (+450) Obfuscation guide needed
16:26:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoticon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75966&oldid=75965 * Quadril-Is * (-46) 
16:27:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Code golf challenges]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75967&oldid=75964 * Hakerh400 * (+0) 
16:27:33 <esowiki> [[Emoticon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75968&oldid=44812 * Quadril-Is * (+9) /* The Emoticons */
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18:33:32 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75969&oldid=75544 * Caenbe * (+19) I think this looks better as one paragraph.
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18:50:49 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75970&oldid=75950 * Bangyen * (-180) /* Implementations */
18:58:36 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75971&oldid=75970 * Bangyen * (-43) 
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23:23:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Deppong *  New user account
23:26:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75972&oldid=75891 * Deppong * (+101) /* Introductions */
23:27:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75973&oldid=75972 * Deppong * (+80) /* Introductions */
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2020-07-15:

00:12:53 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75974 * Salpynx * (+398) trying out math notation
00:19:36 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75975&oldid=75974 * Salpynx * (+103) Math markup resource links
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00:23:13 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75976&oldid=75975 * Salpynx * (+0) translation typo
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04:11:25 <zzo38> Do you know how to do math for sqrt(-1) dimensional topology? (I saw this mentioned in a computer game)
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04:23:26 <shachaf> No. What's that?
04:24:07 <zzo38> I don't know how that is working (or how the number of dimensions is anything other than a natural number or possibly infinite in some cases)
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05:34:55 <shachaf> `5 w
05:34:59 <HackEso> 1/2:tur//To tur is not to flas. \ things boily likes//Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. And kimchi. Or poutine. Moreover, cubes. \ yard//yards is short for "yet another retro distance system". \ shavention//Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet. \ welcome.ru//Добро пожало�
05:35:00 <shachaf> `n
05:35:04 <HackEso> 2/2:�ать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
05:52:05 <int-e> argh, UT \ F-8
06:01:47 <shachaf> Hmm, wasn't the splitting code supposed to handle that?
06:05:59 <int-e> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/23c487fea86d/bin/distort ... I see no signs of that.
06:06:23 <int-e> the perfectionism in that code is about accounting the varying lengths of the numbers correctly.
06:06:30 <int-e> +for
06:07:06 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
06:07:31 <shachaf> I think I remember now: I suggested adding the UTF-8 thing at the time.
06:14:33 <int-e> tfw you learn a new word in your native tongue...
06:16:21 <myname> a serendipity?
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06:22:21 <int-e> myname: Not really (it was a loanword from French). And it does happen... I just didn't expect it at all while reading a maintstream news outlet.
06:22:32 <int-e> So it took me by surprise.
06:24:24 <myname> what word
06:33:41 <int-e> reüssieren
06:34:26 <myname> that's not that uncommon, though
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06:38:35 * int-e shrugs
06:42:53 <esowiki> [[Factor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75977&oldid=75667 * Bangyen * (+30) 
06:51:29 <zzo38> A lot of words in English are French, although also a lot of words in English are English.
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07:24:58 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75978&oldid=75943 * Orisphera * (-1877) 
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07:36:40 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75979&oldid=75978 * Orisphera * (+154) 
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08:59:17 <esowiki> [[Ix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75980 * Orisphera * (+4138) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=ix |author=[[User:Orisphera|Orisphera]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] }} :''Note th..."
09:00:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75981&oldid=75799 * Orisphera * (+9) 
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09:41:24 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75982&oldid=75444 * CMinusMinus * (-29) Removed Drawkcab and Bugmaker, because they are already in archive
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15:12:42 <kspalaiologos> ^8ball should I work on asm2bf
15:12:42 <fungot> Yes.
15:13:09 <kspalaiologos> ^8ball or maybe, should I work on a crackme
15:13:09 <fungot> No.
15:13:17 <kspalaiologos> an uniform response.
15:30:37 <int-e> ^8ball Should 8ball be trusted?
15:30:37 <fungot> Yes.
15:30:43 <int-e> ^8ball Are you sure?
15:30:43 <fungot> Yes.
15:30:45 <int-e> Meh.
15:30:52 <int-e> I don't trust it :)
15:31:54 <fizzie> ^8ball Were you lying when you said it should be trusted?
15:31:54 <fungot> No.
15:32:02 <fizzie> I don't know, it looks pretty consistent to me.
15:32:12 <int-e> ^8ball Would you ever lie to me?
15:32:12 <fungot> No.
15:32:41 <int-e> ^8ball Are your replies predictable?
15:32:41 <fungot> Yes.
15:33:22 <fizzie> ^8ball Have I been testing these phrases in a query to get the replies I want?
15:33:22 <fungot> No.
15:33:31 <fizzie> (That's actually true, but getting a bit spooky.)
15:34:13 <int-e> It's just parity, right?
15:34:33 <myname> ^8ball it's just parity, right?
15:34:33 <fungot> Yes.
15:34:36 <fizzie> Yes, I think so.
15:34:40 <fizzie> ^show 8ball
15:34:40 <fungot> ,[[->+<],]>2+2<[->-[>+>2]>[+[-<+>]>+>2]<5]>4+<2[>2-+11[>+8>+4<2-]>+.+12.+14.>+2.<4-]>2[+10[>+7>+4<2-]>+.+33.>+2.<2]
15:34:47 <myname> it obviously is
15:34:48 <int-e> > odd . sum . map fromEnum $ "it's just parity, right?"
15:34:50 <lambdabot>  True
15:34:53 <wib_jonas> ^8ball Are you giving an incorrect response right now?
15:34:53 <fungot> Yes.
15:35:05 <int-e> > odd . sum . map fromEnum $ "Were you lying when you said it should be trusted?"
15:35:07 <lambdabot>  False
15:36:38 <int-e> . o O ( >2 is not shorter than >> )
15:37:06 * int-e is not used to RLE brainfuck.
15:37:38 <myname> i am a but confused about the fromEnum part
15:37:47 <myname> ah
15:37:48 <myname> nvmd
15:37:54 <int-e> fromEnum == ord here
15:37:58 <myname> yeah
15:38:08 <int-e> the difference is that fromEnum is always available while ord requires an import
15:38:35 <int-e> so I tend to use the former even though lambdabot has `ord` in scope.
15:42:23 <wib_jonas> int-e: from what I heard, fungot compiles brainfuck to some internal representation that uses RLE, and that's why it dumps it that way
15:42:23 <fungot> wib_jonas: not to mention... how we'll do no filesystem. are you going
15:42:41 <wib_jonas> fungot: yes, but it's probably not worth
15:42:42 <fungot> wib_jonas: there are quite a number of " molecules" ( gliders, stable patterns, etc.) for the wiki
15:43:25 <int-e> wib_jonas: that makes sense
15:43:55 <int-e> but it doesn't make the code easier to read ;)
15:44:16 <wib_jonas> int-e: might also make the code fit into a single IRC line when it otherwise wouldn't fit
15:45:40 <int-e> Though, to be fair, the division by 2 would be hard to digest independently of how the code is written.
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15:47:55 <fizzie> Yes, that's the internal reason why it gets printed that way. Though it could definitely omit the count for 2 and print the symbol twice, since it already has custom logic for 1.
15:48:20 <fizzie> The internal representation also uses the same instruction for < and >, and + and -, so the "pretty"-printer needs to fix that as well.
15:48:37 <int-e> but okay, taking the <5 part on faith I see how the division part works :)
15:49:16 <int-e> Which is kind of satisfying because I have not touched Brainfuck in a while.
15:52:01 <arseniiv> hi have a nice day
15:54:28 <int-e> hello good bye arseniiv
15:55:32 <arseniiv> int-e why good bye? :′(
15:55:45 <arseniiv> s/int-e/int-e:
15:57:16 <int-e> arseniiv: because "have a nice day" is a parting greeting
15:57:26 <int-e> whether you intended it that way or not
15:59:05 <arseniiv> int-e: oh :D
16:00:22 <arseniiv> at least I haven’t yet had much time saying it to people
16:01:55 <arseniiv> I must pick something less associated with goodbyes
16:04:48 <int-e> good morning, good day, good afternoon, good evening, good night?
16:05:04 <int-e> (maybe avoid the last one in formal contexts)
16:05:23 <APic> Why?
16:05:35 <int-e> triggers my dirty mind
16:05:42 <APic> Uh huh
16:06:01 <int-e> it may be just me, I wouldn't know :P
16:07:52 <APic> Probably
16:09:31 <APic> I would not even associate „Sweet Dreams“ with something dirty
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16:18:38 <Taneb> int-e: I think that is just you
16:19:01 <Taneb> All it insinuates to me is "one or both of us is going to sleep now"
16:20:34 <int-e> fair enough
16:20:59 <int-e> connotations are difficult :P
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18:18:10 <zzo38> Now I made a SQLite extension for making PostScript tokens output, so for example PSTOKENS(1,'abc',null) will result { 1 (abc) //null } The SQLite command line has some output modes included (including using ASCII control codes as separators), but you cannot define your own mode in an extension.
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18:22:06 <zzo38> Other output modes that might be wanted would be JSON and TeX; in the case of TeX there probably isn't a common way suitable for all documents, although you might be able to write a macro to change category codes to use ASCII control codes as separators and then put them in a alignment block.
18:23:00 <zzo38> However, JSON does not support 64-bit integers (although recent versions of JavaScript do). (PostScript also doesn't, but Ghostscript allows them as an extension)
18:51:39 <arseniiv> <int-e> triggers my dirty mind => lol
18:52:34 <arseniiv> <int-e> good morning, good day, good afternoon, good evening, good night? => they are undoubtedly good but they’re also quite plain as a statistical consequence of being undoubtedly good
18:55:02 <arseniiv> hm “may the multiocular o be with you” may be a suitable for this channel, universality isn’t required. But this one in contrast is to pompous
18:55:41 <arseniiv> “let NP = P” is dubious on many levels
18:56:36 <int-e> > let True = False in ()
18:56:38 <lambdabot>  ()
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18:57:10 <arseniiv> “gesundheit“, albeit sufficiently ironic, may be considered a blunt reaction to something previous
18:58:10 <int-e> arseniiv: top of the evening to you, good sir
18:58:25 <int-e> ^style
18:58:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:58:33 <arseniiv> BTW I find it suspicious how it became to be that English somehow didn’t have a reaction to sneezing of its own prior to borrowing this or it did how but somehow it became superceded for a very obscure reason which I can’t fathom at all
18:58:36 <int-e> ^style ukparl
18:58:37 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
18:58:40 <int-e> fungot: yay
18:58:41 <fungot> int-e: what i have said, that the government endeavour to mitigate the issue would have meant. supported by the staffordshire chamber of the house of commons
18:58:47 <int-e> fungot: yoo
18:58:47 <fungot> int-e: will the hon. member of this house,
18:58:57 <arseniiv> int-e: top as in top hat?
18:59:12 <int-e> I think it's "top" as "the best".
18:59:37 <arseniiv> wouldn’t it be “the top evening” then?
19:00:01 <int-e> watching plebs solve https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrqBX-Tck2A is painful.
19:00:17 <arseniiv> the evening is top, the priestess is high
19:02:17 <int-e> (skip to the 1:30 mark for just the puzzle)
19:03:13 <myname> int-e: the interesting part is, there are several android apps that are exactly that
19:03:25 <myname> i don't get it
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19:04:01 <myname> if you know you need to start at a node with odd degree, those are basically brainless
19:04:27 <int-e> myname: have you seen Lyne?
19:04:44 <myname> pretty sure i did, i just need to recall
19:05:22 <myname> not a huge fan, but an okay one
19:05:34 <arseniiv> int-e: ah, the old eulerian path
19:05:46 <int-e> (Lyne is not based on Eulerian paths, it's closer to Hamiltonian paths, so it's actually mildly interesting.)
19:06:05 <int-e> (I got it in some Humble bundle back when I still cared about those.)
19:06:10 <myname> i have an awful lot of puzzles tested for android
19:06:28 <arseniiv> (my reaction was a late one to the link)
19:06:42 <myname> there is one graph puzzle i really liked that has a limited amount of levels
19:07:47 <int-e> But yeah, Eulerian paths are boring if you know the theory... or if you just realize that you can extend the path at both ends and add loops in the middle.
19:08:14 <arseniiv> I solved many Flow levels, some interesting, some making me feeling serendipity and some pretty boring. When the board becomes not just a rectangle, it becomes more worthy
19:08:35 <int-e> But if you start at a random point and observe that you get stuck in the end and then start over... well it's taking a while.
19:08:41 <myname> also, i can really recommend "snakebirds" as a puzzle game
19:09:00 <int-e> snakebirds is pretty cool
19:09:15 <rain1> amazign game
19:09:21 <int-e> s/ds/d/
19:09:38 <int-e> I actually managed to finish that one.
19:10:27 <int-e> And I don't have it installed atm.
19:10:36 <myname> i'm nowhere near that, but i tend to pause puzzle games an awful long time if i get stuck
19:10:45 <int-e> rain1: I finished SSR btw. (I mentioned it but you may not have seen it.)
19:10:53 <myname> even if i could progress at other levels
19:10:58 <rain1>  i did, thats very impressive
19:11:05 <rain1> i want to work at SSR more but i hdont have too much time atm
19:11:15 <myname> ssr?
19:11:23 <rain1> stephen sausage roll
19:11:25 <int-e> Yeah I think I sunk 20h into it this week.
19:11:30 <myname> ah
19:11:30 <arseniiv> <myname> also, i can really recommend "snakebirds" as a puzzle game => wow, interesting concept
19:11:34 <rain1> if you like snakebird you will probably like this, it's much harder though
19:11:47 <myname> i'd love if ssr had an android version
19:11:57 <int-e> snakebird has its twists as well
19:12:11 <arseniiv> <myname> i'm nowhere near that, but i tend to pause puzzle games an awful long time if i get stuck => like my situation with Baba Is You
19:12:21 <myname> arseniiv: me too
19:12:28 <myname> pretty early on ;/
19:12:44 <myname> i can't wrap my head around the second bonus water level
19:13:07 <myname> it's so different than the first one even though just a few things changed in the level structure itself
19:13:08 <int-e> of those three, baba is you probably has the most degrees of freedom to cope with
19:13:11 <arseniiv> let me see if I completed water
19:14:07 <rain1> is there a good custom level pack for baba is you?
19:14:56 <myname> also, i really enjoyed armadillo run a few years back. it's a physics game, but there are quite puzzling level sets
19:15:32 <int-e> I feel that SSR and Snakebird are about on the same level of difficulty for me; SSR is complicated because it's 3D and the sausages interact in funny ways with the environment. Snakebird has multiple snakes to control that can interact in non-obvious ways. Baba is harder, more comparable to Recursed in difficulty (though very different)
19:15:53 <zzo38> I like Hero Hearts, although I have not finished implementing the Linux version, but once it is then you can hopefully make up a puzzle with Free Hero Mesh.
19:18:02 <myname> minesweeper genius is also interesting
19:19:24 <myname> also, i like 2 spies for ios so much that i started reimplementing it to play it on android
19:21:36 <myname> i am not sure how legal it would be to release it if i ever finish it, though
19:22:27 <zzo38> There are also some good puzzle games for NES/Famicom, such as Gruniozerca 2 and Gruniozerca 3.
19:22:53 <zzo38> Have you played those games?
19:27:13 <zzo38> (There should be a dot above the "z" in the proper title, actually)
19:31:25 <arseniiv> myname: did you mean the “Sunken temple” level?
19:31:46 <arseniiv> I have it solved but I think I don’t remember how, now
19:31:52 <myname> if that's the leftmost one with the two dots, yeah
19:32:27 <myname> i really love how it is completely different from the first one, but it drives me insane
19:33:17 <arseniiv> the lake is the only totally solved place I have, except those first levels which are dumped on the map and don’t have their own place
19:36:38 <arseniiv> hm, rock is you and baba is you doesn’t work agains the crab
19:37:05 <arseniiv> ah I think I remember now, let me check…
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19:47:07 <int-e> myname: note how the second one has one crab less than the first one... that is relevant!
19:47:50 <myname> i thought about going through the crab before it's lose, but that doesn't lead anywhere
19:48:01 <myname> i will have a look later
19:48:19 <myname> do lose-objects get destroyed on contact?
19:48:31 <int-e> no they don't
19:48:46 <myname> hmm
19:49:56 <zzo38> I wonder if there will ever be a Gruniozerca 4 game?
19:49:58 <int-e> open, shut, sink all get destroyed
19:50:22 <myname> i thought about pushing the rock through and then make it myself, but that would need me to get in contact with the crab
19:51:28 <arseniiv> I now am trying to do the same but without success yet
19:53:50 <arseniiv> yes!
19:54:15 <int-e> . o O ( I was going to say: try harder )
19:55:03 <myname> ah, i could try pushing the rock through with a rule
19:55:14 <arseniiv> yep
19:55:46 <arseniiv> initially I thought of using the wrong one and hesitated but it all comes well
19:56:59 <myname> i would assume "is" is unneccessary
20:02:28 <arseniiv> it’s the only one which can be used, yeah
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20:07:24 <int-e> not quite true :)
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20:08:16 <int-e> (the "push" can be used as well)
20:19:33 <int-e> oh yay, forgot the feeling when the bonus level solution is the one you already used for the basic level
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20:26:42 <arseniiv> <int-e> (the "push" can be used as well) => hmm interesting but it should be placed so rock remains push too? or not
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20:27:08 <int-e> arseniiv: yes.
20:51:23 <arseniiv> snakebirds are pretty and a good level of hard almost from the start, yay. Especially manybirdous levels. When the weather will be not as hot, I’ll evaluate the sound design too
21:02:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Eric-D-Culver *  New user account
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21:04:54 <esowiki> [[LRIP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75983 * Lebster * (+1758) Created page with "'''LRIP''' is a stack-based esolang created by [[user:Lebster]] = Commands = {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Explanation |- | L || Bitshift top of stack to the left |- |..."
21:05:31 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75984&oldid=69592 * Lebster * (+101) /* Created Languages */
21:06:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75985&oldid=75973 * Eric-D-Culver * (+231) /* Introductions */
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21:07:42 <esowiki> [[LRIP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75986&oldid=75983 * Lebster * (+479) /* Python Interpreter */
21:11:22 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75987&oldid=75984 * Lebster * (+2351) /* Created Languages */
21:11:49 <esowiki> [[LRIP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75988&oldid=75986 * Lebster * (+115) 
21:25:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:XO Mchne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75989 * Eric-D-Culver * (+860) Creating talk page. Proof of Incompleteness of the language
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22:38:29 <Antebrationist> int-e, you were right. It's the Minsky Machine to prove Turing Completeness of my esolang.
22:38:51 <Antebrationist> I've finished the Minsky Machine, just a few minutes ago.
22:40:20 <Antebrationist> The original Minsky machine was 23*49, 1127 bytes, whereas this Minsky machine is 15*47, 705 bytes.
22:40:45 <Antebrationist> I'll sprunge an example.
22:46:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * MoleculeReviver *  New user account
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22:47:58 <Antebrationist> zzo38, here's the Minsky Machine: http://sprunge.us/SoPEn1
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22:49:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75990&oldid=75985 * MoleculeReviver * (+181) 
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22:56:53 <Antebrationist> I fixed the Minsky Machine. http://sprunge.us/CTAVGX
22:58:46 <Antebrationist> Basically, it uses two programs, one which can have values from 0-3 and one which can have values from 0-length of the  program.
22:59:17 <Antebrationist> The 0-3 tape is converted to binary, 
23:00:23 <Antebrationist> the most significant digit is used for the decrement or increment, and the least significant digit is used for deciding which register to use.
23:01:52 <Antebrationist> The Machine uses 4 data pointers and 4 instruction pointers, but data pointers 1,2 and 3 are stopped after 9,10 and 11 time steps respectively.
23:02:09 <Antebrationist> sorry, I mean instruction pointers 1,2 and 3.
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03:52:39 <esowiki> [[The Temporary Stack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75991&oldid=75837 * Bangyen * (+1) 
03:53:22 <esowiki> [[RAM0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75992&oldid=75843 * Bangyen * (+54) /* Implementations */
04:04:29 <esowiki> [[Bitdeque]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75993&oldid=75946 * Bangyen * (-2) 
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05:55:04 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75994&oldid=75976 * Salpynx * (+1093) Fizz Buzz in maths
05:59:43 <int-e> `"
05:59:45 <HackEso> 1/1:1283) <hppavilion[1]> I have just learned about "SMASH FACE ON KEYBOARD; POST RESULTS".  --- quit: hppavilion[1] (Quit: Leaving)  --- join: hppavilion[1] [...] joined #esoteric  <hppavilion[1]> ...that was the result, apparently  <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, f4 \ 933) <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not some kind of mathematical rhetorical arguing device
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06:17:45 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75995&oldid=75994 * Salpynx * (+424) Truth-machine fn
06:50:27 <esowiki> [[BFStack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75996&oldid=75594 * Bangyen * (+54) 
06:51:05 <esowiki> [[RAM0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75997&oldid=75992 * Bangyen * (-54) 
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09:07:42 <esowiki> [[6-5]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75999&oldid=75923 * The Esolanger * (-8) Made it finished
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10:29:11 <fizzie> Great job, Amazon UK. There's these two hard drive models (WD40EFRX and WD40EFAX) with the same branding, but the difference that the first one uses CMR while the second one uses (DM-)SMR. Amazon was selling both, with a £15 price difference.
10:29:17 <fizzie> Ordered the first one, because of the well-documented issues SMR can have in some workloads. They sent me the WD40EFAX model, inside a bubble wrap that had a WD40EFRX sticker on it.
10:29:25 <fizzie> Returned it, complained to customer service (who assured me that they'd put a note on my account to ensure it doesn't happen again), ordered it again.
10:29:32 <fizzie> They sent me *another* WD40EFAX drive, again in bubble wrap with a WD40EFRX sticker on it. So returned that too, and this time complained to product support, who got it "escalated" to an "investigation". They temporarily stopped selling the WD40EFRX on amazon.co.uk.
10:29:42 <fizzie> Went back now to check whether their investigation has concluded. What they've done is, they've updated the model name in the WD40EFRX product to say WD40EFAX as well, as if it was the same drive, but kept the other details of the WD40EFRX drive.
10:30:01 <fizzie> So now they're selling "WD Red 4TB NAS 3.5 Inch Internal Hard Drive - 5400 RPM Class, SATA 6 Gb/s, SMR, 256 MB Cache - WD40EFAX" at £104 (fair enough), *and* "WD Red 4TB NAS 3.5 Inch Internal Hard Drive - 5400 RPM Class, SATA 6 Gb/s, CMR, 64 MB Cache WD40EFAX" (which isn't even a thing that exists) at £120.
10:30:31 <fizzie> (This was all "Dispatched and sold by Amazon" stuff, not even third-party sellers.)
10:30:50 <fizzie> I think I've run out of ways to escalate that, so I guess I'll just give up. Sorry for the rant, just had to offload it somewhere.
10:38:22 <fizzie> (If you know any tech journalists who've been writing all those articles about the CMR-vs-SMR bait and switch, feel free to give them a tip, maybe that'd motivate someone to fix it properly.)
10:39:03 <int-e> :-/
10:42:30 <int-e> SMR seems to be making a very weird tradeoff (which I have yet to fully understand)
10:43:58 <int-e> As for bait&switch, I've only heard of this, fortunately.
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11:40:55 <fizzie> I don't think SMR would've meant much to me in practice (it'd be just one half of a classic RAID 1 mirror that doesn't get written a lot), just thought I'd rather not, and then it became more of a matter of not getting what I ordered.
11:40:59 <fizzie> Also, while they did the refund for the second return immadiately, the first one is still in "refund will be started once we receive your item" state even though the parcel tracking service says it was delivered to Amazon two weeks or so ago.
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11:43:53 <int-e> Highly annoying :-(
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12:48:51 <int-e> @check \a b -> (a `xor` b == 1) == (abs (a-b) == 1 && even (min a b))
12:48:53 <lambdabot>  +++ OK, passed 100 tests.
12:58:48 <int-e> (I started out with the thing on the right.)
13:00:42 <int-e> I've been toying around with this: https://paste.debian.net/1156599/ (that is, count the number of solutions to that "Regnarok puzzle" I brought up yesterday.)
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13:11:02 <wib_jonas> `olist 1207
13:11:04 <HackEso> olist 1207: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:15:40 <arseniiv> fare well
13:19:34 <arseniiv> <int-e> I've been toying around with this: https://paste.debian.net/1156599/ => how do you think, can it be solved neatly without enumerating a massive amount of things on a computer? purely pencil and paper style?
13:23:17 <int-e> arseniiv: it's in the middle
13:23:52 <int-e> A bit more tedious than I'd be comfortable with on pen&paper.
13:24:01 <arseniiv> so, the kind of puzzle I’m not experienced with at all
13:24:13 <int-e> The keyword is dynamic programming.
13:24:29 <int-e> Also, it turns out this thing has an OEIS entry.
13:25:17 <int-e> You can use brute force too, it will finish.
13:25:31 <arseniiv> <int-e> Also, it turns out this thing has an OEIS entry. => a sequence for various dimensions of the Jormungard (oh I think I made at least three errors in there writing by memory)
13:25:34 <arseniiv> ?
13:25:54 <int-e> varying the width
13:26:29 <arseniiv> I’d vary the height too, I think there should be a decent generalization which leaves only two degree 3 vertices
13:27:04 <int-e> Well, I'd advise against it.
13:28:48 <int-e> (You can ask the question but the counting will get more difficult.)
13:31:12 <int-e> "so, the kind of puzzle I’m not experienced with at all" <-- also the kind of puzzle I tend to enjoy a lot
13:31:15 <wib_jonas> ``` cat olist.new > /hackenv/bin/olist
13:31:18 <HackEso> No output.
13:31:38 <int-e> `hbrl olist
13:31:39 <HackEso> hbrl? No such file or directory
13:31:45 <wib_jonas> olist will now print the URL of the strip if you give it just a number as the argument; it will keep printing the arguments verbatim otherwise
13:31:50 <int-e> `hurl bin/olist
13:31:51 <HackEso> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
13:31:56 <int-e> `hurl ../bin/olist
13:31:57 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/olist
13:32:29 <wib_jonas> feel free to test in private message
13:33:15 <int-e> I just wanted to see the change.
13:33:35 <wib_jonas> it's bash black magic, I don't know how it works
13:34:01 <wib_jonas> I practicularly don't understand the xargs part that prints the tail, I just took that from the existing command
13:36:55 <int-e> arseniiv: https://gist.github.com/int-e/7bb736e366337379442d5899b3899963 is what I did :)
13:37:37 <int-e> (totally hardcoded to 4xn size)
13:38:53 <arseniiv> int-e: neat
13:39:07 <arseniiv>  though I’m lazy to read it properly for now
14:25:35 <wib_jonas> "<arseniiv> BTW I find it suspicious how it became to be that English somehow didn’t have a reaction to sneezing of its own" => I think "bless you" is the normal reply
14:25:49 <wib_jonas> "gesundheit" just took over because it sounds better
14:26:08 <myname> also, germans tend to do world domination
14:26:23 <int-e> myname: speak for yourself
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14:53:34 <wib_jonas> "<fizzie> They sent me *another* WD40EFAX drive, again in bubble wrap with a WD40EFRX sticker on it." => hehe, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html
14:54:27 <int-e> ... almost fell for that one.
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14:58:08 <wib_jonas> I hope you at least got your money back
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14:59:08 <wib_jonas> ah, "SMR" stands for shingled. that makes more sense
15:01:49 <wib_jonas> "<fizzie> Also, while they did the refund for the second return immadiately, the first one is still in "refund will be started once we receive your item" state even though the parcel tracking service says it was delivered to Amazon two weeks or so ago." ah
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15:45:47 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76000&oldid=75954 * Chris Pressey * (+1768) Give an idiom for extensible conditional testing in Burro.
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17:39:30 <esowiki> [[Ix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76001&oldid=75980 * Orisphera * (+87) 
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18:08:24 <rain1> I need a new hard disk, what would you recommend ?
18:08:50 <b_jonas> buy one
18:09:33 <zzo38> Yes, if you do not already have a suitable one.
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18:11:28 <rain1> whch one?
18:13:34 <zzo38> The one I have is Western Digital
18:14:54 <b_jonas> buy one from the other brand than your current one, then when you inevitably hear stories about why a particular brand of hard disks sucks, you at least won't think darn it, all my hard disks are of that brand
18:15:27 <b_jonas> I have both samsung and WD in my computer for that reason
18:16:21 <b_jonas> or, like, if all of them have a mistake or feature or backdoor that causes them to simultaneously die at a round mayan date or whatever, at least some of your hard disks have a chance to work
18:16:52 <rain1> haha
18:16:56 <rain1> have you tried SSD?
18:17:03 <rain1> i thought it was interesting but dont have one
18:17:14 <b_jonas> (of course, some of them might share pieces of software, in which case you're screwed anyway. it's like when I have vlc, mplayer and ffmpeg on my computer, but it turns out that the backend they use to compress h2.64 video is actually the same one library, so it's not like when there's a bug in one I can just use the other)
18:17:45 <b_jonas> rain1: I will buy an SSD, but not as a primary hard disk, just as a cache or hot stuff mostly. I don't trust SSDs to be reliable,
18:17:59 <b_jonas> in that they can just go completely unreadable out of the blue, more so than hard disks.
18:22:49 <rain1> oh that sounsd horrible
18:23:01 <zzo38> Is there the program to implement that caching? How would it be working effectively?
18:28:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it's in the linux kernel, with some userspace stuff only to set it up, but I don't know the details
18:28:47 <b_jonas> I haven't bought an SSD yet so I haven't researched it
18:29:06 <b_jonas> I'll buy one "soon" (within ten years)
18:37:45 <fizzie> What I do with my SSD-and-HDD setup is, since the HDD is almost an order of magnitude larger than the HDD, I just have a thing to keep a mirror of the SSD contents on the HDD, updated once a day or so.
18:38:10 <fizzie> Although my personal experience with spinning disk failures has so far all been "went completely unreadable out of the blue" as well.
18:38:57 <fizzie> With the exception of one drive which was "was sending smartd error emails for a week before it went completely unreadable, but I wasn't reading that email address", which admittedly is more in the 'my fault' column.
18:39:16 <fizzie> s/than the HDD/than the SSD/
18:40:03 <fizzie> Only Banarch-Tarski brand HDDs are an order of magnitude larger than themselves.
18:41:39 <fizzie> My only advice is, don't try to buy a WD40EFRX from Amazon, for the reasons detailed earlier today.
18:41:57 <rain1> 2 of my disks are dead
18:42:13 <rain1> yeah that story got me thinking
18:59:47 <b_jonas> have multiple disks, any one could break
18:59:57 <b_jonas> no, I don't always follow my own advice about backups
19:00:05 <b_jonas> I'm probably not the right person to ask about them
19:00:09 <b_jonas> about backup best practices
19:03:21 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think "bless you" is the normal reply => oh, forgot about that one
19:04:26 <arseniiv> when I think about backups, I realize I don’t have enough disks
19:06:26 <fizzie> The problem with many disks is, if you choose to make one bigger, you may need to make the others bigger as well, and then it may become expensive.
19:08:17 <fizzie> For example, the three disks in my backup rotation cycle (one in the machine receiving weekly incremental backups, one on the shelf here, and one in an underground vault at an undisclosed location in the Finnish bedrock) are all 3TB, while the "working drives" in this machine are 4TB, which only works because I've excluded a bunch of useless junk from being backed-up.
19:09:58 <fizzie> Right now the best price-per-unit-of-storage size seems to be either 6 TB or 8 TB, but if I were to switch to that, I'd need to buy approximately 5 of them.
19:19:39 <arseniiv> ah, I have less than 3 TB of non-backup space, and more than 200 GB is used to hold a file I don’t particularly want to have but it hasn’t anywhere else to go if I don’t want to devote one of removable disks to it, as there are just two and they hold backups. Though I should better place them in different locations, not in the same drawer centimeters apart
19:22:02 <arseniiv> BTW is there any merit to wrap a removable HDD in metal foil as a kind of Faraday cage, would it be effective against EMP from a nearby lightning and does that happen often enough to be one of the main threats?
19:31:22 <fizzie> I don't have any data to back this up (no terminology pun intended), but I would imagine that's not super high up the list of most common failure modes.
19:33:45 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think so. if you want to protect against lightning, pull out all cables from the hard disk and any other equipment nearby. 
19:34:02 <b_jonas> like, if it's still in a computer chasis, pull all the cables from the chasis
19:34:27 <b_jonas> a typical computer chasis is already a Faraday cage, the lightning comes in on cables
19:34:36 <b_jonas> not necessarily on the power cable, it can come from a network cable too
19:34:58 <b_jonas> PurpleStar TwitchSings *
19:35:00 <arseniiv> b_jonas: would that help from a nearby lightning which doesn’t cause a spike in the power network?
19:35:58 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think so, if the cables are removed from all the other equipment nearby 
19:36:03 <b_jonas> but I'm not an experts
19:36:18 <arseniiv> I heard right near a lightning, as rare as it may be to be as near, there are quite a large field intensities. I don’t remember if I read about remagnetizing stuff, but I think I saw that somewhere
19:36:37 <b_jonas> hard disk data isn't too vulnerable to lightning strikes anyway. the electronics may be, but if it's only the electronics that breaks, a hard disk can still be read 
19:36:53 <b_jonas> so you can recover the data. when the electronics in an SSD breaks, you're screwed, there's no way to fix it.
19:37:11 <fizzie> That's a pretty relaxed definition of "can" though.
19:37:20 <arseniiv> yeah but one would need to get it to service which is not always as cheap(?..)
19:37:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, you need a recovery service
19:38:36 <b_jonas> still, easier to recover from than when misbehaving software or malware or misbehaving wetware corrupts/deletes all your data 
19:39:23 <arseniiv> not necessarily on the power cable, it can come from a network cable too => hm also you reminded me it even may induce currents in the cables not connected to a power source or the like, and still fry something
19:40:00 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, I specifically said "pull out all cables from ... and any other equipment nearby."
19:40:13 <fizzie> I was promised proper storms when I moved to the UK, but there's been hardly any.
19:40:57 <b_jonas> also, make sure your house doesn't catch fire from the lightning. house fires don't usually destroy the hard disk, but they can cause other severe damage.
19:41:48 <b_jonas> and make sure that if a lightning strikes a tree it doesn't fall onto your car
19:41:58 <b_jonas> also doesn't destroy hard disks but still
19:46:09 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> also, make sure your house doesn't catch fire from the lightning => that can be pretty assured, it’s all bricks on the outside and concrete slabs somewhere inside :D
19:47:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, you don't live in America, it's easier here
19:48:12 <arseniiv> and I don’t have a car yay. It certainly might be useful but it entails so much hassle with gasoline prices, service prices, bureaucracy and at the last it would be a hard thing to get a licence and actually drive with my degree of myopia :D
19:48:20 <b_jonas> although we still have some ugly building fires sometimes, even in concrete buildings
19:49:07 <arseniiv> I’d like to drive in an experimental environment where I don’t need to worry about having a license, just for fun to try it out
19:49:10 <b_jonas> but mostly plausibly deniable motivated ones, like last time it was the offices of a political party, with lots of documents stored inside, that burned down in the city
19:49:30 <b_jonas> and an old storage building right at my previous job
19:49:55 <arseniiv> yeah, plastics which burn readily and so on, but usually one needs to set them on fire in a solid manner
19:50:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can certainly get a driving license with myopia. I have one, and I already had bad myopia back then.
19:50:31 <b_jonas> admittedly it did get a bit worse, mostly in that my two eyes desyced
19:50:37 <arseniiv> but I don’t see how I would drive in the city
19:50:38 <b_jonas> so I have much worse binocular vision now
19:50:51 <b_jonas> oh, I don't drive either, I just have a driving license
19:51:01 <b_jonas> the town is terrible, I'd be afraid to drive here
19:51:04 <arseniiv> ah :D
19:51:06 <b_jonas> I can drive when I'm away 
19:51:30 <b_jonas> I got the license around when I started university. 
19:51:59 <arseniiv> I don’t want to get a license for naught, it’s pretty much work and social interactions with dubious persons which would comment on my height or something
19:52:08 <b_jonas> "set them on fire in a solid manner" => good thing we have ubiquitious litium batteries for that now
19:52:21 <arseniiv> yeah
19:52:22 <b_jonas> they're not only in electric wheelchairs, they're in every consumer electronics device
19:52:25 <b_jonas> now
19:52:51 <b_jonas> but even without that, there's the old-school car fuel or alcohol or other easily flammable liquids
19:52:55 <b_jonas> that are easy to buy
19:53:44 <arseniiv> alcohol especially these times as an antiseptic
19:54:26 <b_jonas> yeah, all the pharma companies realized that stopping their factories and turning them to package hand sanitizers to tiny bottles earns them a lot of money, because there's a shortage of the bottles on the market, the actual alcohol and isopropil-alcohol is widely available, and 
19:54:57 <b_jonas> unlike when making drugs, they don't need to follow all the expensive strict quality control laws to just make hand sanitizer bottles
19:55:02 <b_jonas> so now we don't have drugs
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20:20:41 <arseniiv> oh
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21:10:16 <zzo38> Could a multi resolution picture compression be done by predictive coding? Such as, to make a prediction based on the nearest smaller size, the nearest pixel to the value, perhaps.
21:15:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: we just use progressive jpegs for it mostly
21:15:21 <b_jonas> it's not perfect really
21:15:33 <b_jonas> but it's better than nothing
21:17:04 <zzo38> Well, for one thing, I want to use lossless compression.
21:17:53 <zzo38> Another thing is might be wanted to decode as CMYK+spots
21:42:12 <arseniiv> zzo38: do you intend to use that in TeXnicard for card images? Maybe it would be good to just vectorize all the images? (with a sufficiently high contour complexity so they would look pleasing)
21:42:29 <zzo38> arseniiv: No, I intend to use it for picture fonts.
21:43:11 <arseniiv> zzo38: ah, though I’d suggest the same here too
21:45:06 <arseniiv> usually the images in a picture font aren’t too complex, right? Even emojis with color shades can be more or less well represented in vector. If one is allowed to use a blur filter as in SVG, much more so, I’d think
21:47:01 <zzo38> OK, maybe it is; then just the pictures can be added using PostScript codes.
21:47:21 <zzo38> TeXnicard does have a convolution filter command, so you can use that if you need blur
21:53:01 <zzo38> (It is not using SVG)
22:40:26 <esowiki> [[User:Deppong]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76002 * Deppong * (+61) added to my own page
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23:31:21 <esowiki> [[Vertical]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76003 * Deppong * (+2087) Adding the Vertical programming language to the Esolang wiki
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23:32:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76004&oldid=75981 * Deppong * (+15) /* V */
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2020-07-17:

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01:50:09 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76005&oldid=75133 * ZippyMagician * (+162) Finally fix errors in description
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04:20:15 <zzo38> Include the card Mana Clash in a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.
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05:02:42 <esowiki> [[RAM0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76006&oldid=75997 * Bangyen * (+54) Undo revision 75997 by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]])
05:06:13 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76007 * Salpynx * (+3594) Godel numbering toy language, to test conversions and output encoding generation
05:19:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76008&oldid=76007 * Salpynx * (+1283) /* Evaluation and output encoding */ not sure how I'm going to catch any typos in this...
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05:22:54 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76009&oldid=75998 * Bangyen * (+11) /* Implementations */
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05:39:36 <Antebrationist> Are we allowed to ask questions about general programming on this channel, or is there an IRC channel for that too?
05:40:01 <imode> I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed.
05:41:21 <Antebrationist> Okay then. When using python's websocket-client library, I have a line of code that goes as such
05:41:41 <Antebrationist> self.ws = websocket.create_connection("wss://my.website/ws")
05:41:53 <Antebrationist> How can I make websocket-client use a proxy?
05:43:56 <Antebrationist> Stackoverflow wasn't very helpful, giving their standard "why would you do that, when you can do blablablablah".
05:45:26 <Antebrationist> Oh, by the way, should I disconnect, I'll still read the logs.
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06:15:24 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76010&oldid=76008 * Salpynx * (+4342) some examples, to demonstrate
06:37:23 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76011&oldid=76010 * Salpynx * (+934) Thankfully the Deadfish Hello World conversion example works correctly on tio
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06:46:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76012&oldid=76011 * Salpynx * (+405) /* Conversion to Brainfoctal */ some extra info about b()
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07:14:10 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76013 * Hakerh400 * (+26608) +[[Serenity]]
07:14:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76014&oldid=76004 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Serenity]]
07:14:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76015&oldid=75963 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Serenity]]
07:20:12 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76016&oldid=76013 * Hakerh400 * (+7) /* Object */
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08:19:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76017&oldid=75952 * Orisphera * (+5) 
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08:40:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76018&oldid=76012 * Salpynx * (+1922) add link to 16bit bf interpreter to demonstrate the conversion result
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08:50:08 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76019&oldid=76018 * Salpynx * (+19) /* Conversion to Brainfoctal */ the difference between Natural and non-Natural number conversion is still not clear, must fix later
09:11:34 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76020&oldid=76016 * Hakerh400 * (-7) Fix typos
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13:34:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Johnnadina *  New user account
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23:33:52 <deadatheaven> Hello, kind of a "strange" question....How can I communicate with the creator of Superstack?
23:34:46 <deadatheaven> I am thinking about one or two modifications and it might be interesting to discuss it first
23:35:50 <zzo38> I don't know; if that is something on esolang wiki, try the talk page maybe?
23:36:22 <deadatheaven> Hello, thanks, I guess, the talk page of superstack? 
23:36:58 <zzo38> Yes, that would be what I suggest, if you have changes to mention.
23:37:53 <zzo38> (You can try the user talk page for whoever wrote it, too; it is more useful on the talk page for the Superstack itself, although they might be more likely to see it on the user talk page.)
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23:40:31 <deadatheaven> That's great, I will do that, thank you zzo38
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2020-07-18:

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01:57:07 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76021&oldid=75856 * TwilightSparkle * (-2) /* Turing-Completeness */
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02:45:12 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76022&oldid=75935 * DanielCristofani * (+31) Put links to my programs
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06:37:00 <zzo38> I remember reading a book about a chess variant called "Emperor Wars", where the board starts with several neutral pieces, which it is possible to gain control of by placing your own pieces next to them (if they move away, you lose control of them), and at the beginning, players take turns placing their pieces on vacant cells on the board such that they do not threaten opponent's pieces.
06:39:13 <zzo38> I do not remember all of the rules, but I remember there are pieces called "plebeian" (the neutral pieces), "emperor", "tribune", "senator", "centurion", "vestal virgin", and "praetorian guard" (maybe there were others too; I don't remember if there are any others or not)
06:40:00 <zzo38> Do you know anything about this?
07:04:50 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76023&oldid=76022 * DanielCristofani * (+130) /* Implementations */
07:12:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76024&oldid=76017 * Orisphera * (+0) 
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07:26:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nil]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76025&oldid=58993 * Orisphera * (+174) 
07:26:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nil]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76026&oldid=76025 * Orisphera * (+85) 
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07:49:44 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76027&oldid=75982 * Orisphera * (+202) /* Ideas for Names */
08:41:02 <salpynx> > error ("Hello World!\n^bf " ++ concat [map (:[]) "]><+-.,[" !! digitToInt c | c <- showIntAtBase 8 intToDigit 0x1b6db6f96dbe5b2db2db2d24a02cb3097d050134c92b6db6ed6dd26a9556dd92492c92492525d2dd ""])
08:41:04 <lambdabot>  *Exception: Hello World!
08:41:05 <lambdabot>  ^bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>...
08:41:16 <rain1> haha
08:41:27 <rain1> ^bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>...
08:41:27 <fungot> Hello   
08:41:41 <salpynx> :(
08:41:56 <salpynx> didn't quite work as hoped
08:42:29 <rain1> ^bf ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>>--------.<++.>>+.+++++++++++++..---.+++.<<.++++++++.------.>>--------------------.++++.++++.<<-.+.+++++++.
08:42:30 <fungot> > error ("^bf!")
08:43:13 <salpynx> I was trying to pipe lambdabot's Haskell output to its own bf interpreter, then decided it'd be more fun to send it to fungot
08:43:39 <rain1> a bot wont interpret its own output
08:43:47 <rain1> but it seems that lambdabot is specially coded to ignore fungot
08:43:47 <fungot> rain1: in the hon. and learned friend the member for glasgow north, for the scottish government to the house to work with,
08:44:31 <salpynx> heh, they are ignoring each other!
08:49:24 <salpynx> @fungot do you ignore lambdabot?
08:49:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:49:24 <fungot> salpynx: of the three to pass. i have three months worth of buffer, a bit to the wales bill, the agreement paves the way to have the proper resources follow health is of course the government have
08:50:20 <rain1> > reverse "tognuf"
08:50:21 <lambdabot>  "fungot"
08:50:28 <rain1>  "fungot"
08:50:28 <fungot> rain1: what the hon. member of this house, you and i, and the scottish government,
08:50:36 <rain1> I wonder what happened between them?
08:50:53 <myname> the bots prefix their output be a zero-woidth character iirc
08:51:02 <myname> in order to not trigger themself
08:51:14 <rain1> OH!
08:54:59 <salpynx> I wasn't trying to bot loop, just to chain a series of commands in lambdabot, but it seems the bf interpreter is not accessible from within @run ", unfortunately" 
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09:06:50 <salpynx> I can see the extra prefix character in the logs (looks like a space). My newline worked as intended, but still foiled by some good defensive bot coding. Well done.
09:17:03 <int-e> rain1: fungot ignores known bots
09:17:04 <fungot> int-e: of the three members of the same people. the overwhelming majority, are not taken the opportunity to see the very careful way, over a fair period, 40 horse.
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10:23:25 <b_jonas> salpynx: lambdabot sort of has a compose command, though it's not as powerful as the compose command that I added to buubot
10:23:35 <b_jonas> in that one respect, buubot manages to be more esoteric but useful
10:29:03 <salpynx> ?. bf run concat [map (:[]) "]><+-.,[" !! digitToInt c | c <- showIntAtBase 8 intToDigit 0x1b6db6f96dbe5b2db2db2d24a02cb3097d050134c92b6db6ed6dd26a9556dd92492c92492525d2dd ""]
10:29:05 <lambdabot>   Hello WWW
10:30:29 <salpynx> b_jonas: thanks, that's what I wanted! (the output above is different to what I got when I tested it in private msg)
10:30:54 <salpynx> ?. bf run concat [map (:[]) "]><+-.,[" !! digitToInt c | c <- showIntAtBase 8 intToDigit 0x1b6db6f96dbe5b2db2db2d24a02cb3097d050134c92b6db6ed6dd26a9556dd92492c92492525d2dd ""] 
10:30:57 <lambdabot>   Hello WWW
10:32:03 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76028&oldid=66787 * Lebster * (+1) Esolang -> Esolangs
10:33:01 <salpynx> odd, the output it 'Hello World!' when sent directly to lambdabot. It's different in the channel
10:36:01 <int-e> > concat [map (:[]) "]><+-.,[" !! digitToInt c | c <- showIntAtBase 8 intToDigit 0x1b6db6f96dbe5b2db2db2d24a02cb3097d050134c92b6db6ed6dd26a9556dd92492c92492525d2dd ""]
10:36:03 <lambdabot>  "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-...
10:36:45 <int-e> note the ... at the end :-P
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10:40:08 <salpynx> oh! ellipsis = triple output, of course :)  Direct msg output doesn't get truncated in the same way. 
10:40:23 <salpynx> I guess that's to prevent public channel spam
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10:53:25 <arseniiv> fungot is it hot // or is it cold huh fungold?
10:53:26 <fungot> arseniiv: the hon. member of this house, whom i do not always agree, he said this fnord before the us decided to relocate, creating 200 that have shut down the rail minister, the hon. and learned friend the member for the cotswolds, that
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10:54:47 <arseniiv> ah, so you’re in parliament rooms still. Surely there is air conditioning somewhere, I’m glad for you
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11:20:07 <fizzie> fungot: I was just reading the Wikipedia page about Cotswolds, I've never been there, what's it like? 
11:20:07 <fungot> fizzie: this is the right decision, and you a merry christmas, mr speaker,
11:21:50 <fizzie> Looks like I won't be going either, then.
11:21:52 <fizzie> As for the ignoring, yeah, fungot doesn't do the zero-width space trick (HackEso does), it just has a hardcoded ignore list.
11:21:52 <fungot> fizzie: this is in the best interest of the more vulnerable, it
11:22:12 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, I know, it's reasonable.
11:22:13 <fungot> fizzie: i am because no government, regardless. the universal joint was shot off the fnord, my fnord wires cut and petrol was fnord all over the devolved nations, the house might have to be carried.
11:22:33 <fizzie> Politics sounds more exciting than I thought.
11:22:34 <fizzie> ^ignore
11:22:35 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esowiki|bfbot|egelbot)!
11:38:14 <b_jonas> calling the top few kilometers of Earth "crust" in English is such a misleading term, it should be called the "icing", where "crust" should refer to the thick layer below it, what we now call "mantle"
11:38:31 <b_jonas> s/few/ten/
11:38:45 <b_jonas> no wait
11:38:55 <b_jonas> s/few/few dozen/ 
11:39:04 <b_jonas> argbh
11:39:07 <b_jonas> s/ten/few dozen/
11:40:40 <t20kdc> fungot: are you really a bot
11:40:40 <fungot> t20kdc: they have not been an issue historically because the military union was only to be targeted, and the hon. and learned friend the member for edinburgh north and leith, that famous for the progress to date,
11:41:17 <int-e> `? fungot
11:41:18 <fungot> int-e: fnord fnord fnord, i have a friend in the chair: that legislative process has been equipped the previous year, the percentage of fnord and short-term business visits, that are an indictment, to a fine,
11:41:20 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
11:41:30 <t20kdc> no bot could say something so clearly in politicalese
11:41:41 <int-e> ^style
11:41:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
11:42:39 <t20kdc> unless the secret to being a politician is to have a 2-dimensional brain
11:45:39 <int-e> Like a cortex?
11:46:55 <t20kdc> or like a Befunge interpreter
11:47:13 <b_jonas> t20kdc: it's "2-dimensional" but not in the cellular automaton sense, it has random access read/write commands
11:47:47 <t20kdc> something-"entanglement"-something
11:47:54 <b_jonas> no
11:48:20 <b_jonas> (1) that's not how quantum works, (2) if it was possible, we didn't still have such non-powerful multi-layer ICs as our processors
11:48:50 <t20kdc> in regards to (1): I know but am joking
11:49:22 <b_jonas> but of course our DRAMs emulate random access on those, through a slow bandwidth, an we run brainfuck and every other random access stuff on that or something similar
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11:49:41 <b_jonas> our DRAMs and our SSDs and our hard disks etc
11:52:45 <int-e> t20kdc: ah don't worry, I did get the Befunge reference.
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12:09:36 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think icing might have the problem that it has connotations of softness, at least the crust has that the right way around (it's the hard outermost bit), AIUI the mantle is -- well, it's still solid, but sort of less so.
12:09:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Maybe the pedosphere is really the icing... though if so, someone's skimped on it as far as eating the Earth for dessert is concerned.
12:12:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: but icing is hard, it's cream that's soft, you can have either on a cake (or even none)
12:13:20 <b_jonas> well, in a good cake
12:13:56 <b_jonas> the crust should be soft (it's hard in some desserts but I prefer soft ones), frozen sugar icing is hard and fragile and prone to fractures and icingquakes as you cut the cake
12:15:18 <b_jonas> chocolate icing, which I prefer over frozen sugar icing, are also fragile and prone to icingquakes, and can still be harder than the crust, definitely harder if you take only as thin a slice of the crust as the icing is
12:18:21 <fizzie> Yes, I guess in situations where you do have icing, the crust does tend to be less hard.
12:18:36 <b_jonas> there's also caramel icing
12:18:57 <b_jonas> and Dobos torta sugar icing
12:19:00 <b_jonas> mmm
12:19:31 <int-e> where is this going, are you all going to start licking the ground?
12:19:46 <b_jonas> int-e: no, we just want to develop esoteric terminology
12:22:56 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76029&oldid=75969 * Caenbe * (+335) I think this explains my thoughts better than calling it a "work-in-progress".
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15:53:45 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> calling the top few kilometers of Earth "crust" in English is such a misleading term, it should be called the "icing", where "crust" should refer to the thick layer below it, what we now call "mantle" => lol
15:54:33 <int-e> oh github seems to have improved tracking review comments when updating commits (by force-pushing)
15:54:54 <int-e> so they're not only breaking things
15:57:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: what about solid and liquid core, should they become hmm well I don’t know how it’s called in any language
15:59:34 <t20kdc> ooo! jam and a gobstopper?
15:59:48 <t20kdc> ...in the opposite order.
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17:58:19 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76030 * Hakerh400 * (+5429) +[[Transortogonal Polymorphism]]
17:58:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76031&oldid=76014 * Hakerh400 * (+34) +[[Transortogonal Polymorphism]]
17:58:25 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76032&oldid=76015 * Hakerh400 * (+34) +[[Transortogonal Polymorphism]]
18:02:52 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76033&oldid=76030 * Hakerh400 * (-9) Remove unused variable
18:03:01 <arseniiv> t20kdc: haha
18:05:47 <arseniiv> though maybe not jam, jam seems to be too soft. Maybe something like mm how’s it called, that almost solid chewy caramel thing?..
18:14:32 <b_jonas> araseniiv: I think "core" is fine
18:15:01 <b_jonas> almost solid chewy caramel thing => aww. it's toffee. I hate it.
18:15:14 <b_jonas> it's too sticky
18:15:27 <t20kdc> wait, toffee? ... I need to go get an excavator!
18:16:11 <b_jonas> t20kdc: alas, no. https://xkcd.com/2058/
18:28:39 <arseniiv> b_jonas: but there’s so much iron and nickel that’s a good idea anyway. We could build so many bridges
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19:37:38 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76034&oldid=76033 * Hakerh400 * (+1566) Add a new example
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22:28:51 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76035&oldid=76034 * Hakerh400 * (+3771) Add one more example
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2020-07-19:

00:59:31 <zzo38> Which C compilers (if any) violate the assumption:  'xy'=='x'*'\1\0'+'y'*'\0\1'
01:03:37 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76036&oldid=76023 * DanielCristofani * (+148) 
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01:36:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nil]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76037&oldid=76026 * TwilightSparkle * (+208) /* Idea for interpreters */
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02:08:44 <zzo38> (That is the assumption I use in my programs which use such a thing.)
02:11:31 <zzo38> I found that apparently MSVC will compile multi character constants differently depending whether or not they are escaped. But, I think MSVC doesn't implement GNU extensions anyways.
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06:09:57 <zzo38> I made up a format for writing a poll/survey, and can be distributed by itself as a plain ASCII text file, but can also be processed by a JavaScript program which can convert it to JSON and can write results to a SQLite database (so that you can then use SQL to count the results and stuff like that).
06:16:07 <zzo38> The people who answer the survey can do so without needing a web browser or other software; even if you want to, you can print it on a paper and do it that way. It is a plain ASCII text file which should be readable by anyone.
06:17:01 <zzo38> This program accesses the SQLite database by communicating with the "sqlite3" command line program; I wrote my own implementations of sqlite3_complete and sqlite3_expanded_sql in JavaScript, in order to work this.
06:37:16 <esowiki> [[Palace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76038 * Hakerh400 * (+2851) +[[Palace]]
06:37:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76039&oldid=76031 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Palace]]
06:37:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76040&oldid=76032 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Palace]]
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07:01:12 <zzo38> So, I think that such a format should be used when making up a survey on the computer.
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07:31:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76041&oldid=76024 * Orisphera * (+261) 
07:41:01 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76042&oldid=76019 * Salpynx * (+174) this is how Natural and Unnatural gf are calculated in the one equation
07:43:54 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76043&oldid=76042 * Salpynx * (+12) /* Conversion to Brainfoctal */ ital
07:56:35 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/bf8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76044&oldid=75995 * Salpynx * (+24) /* FizzBuzz (or -4122 -8022) */  fizz, buzz values
08:09:44 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76045&oldid=76043 * Salpynx * (+115) /* Conversion to Brainfoctal */
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12:48:38 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specker_sequence
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14:22:19 <arseniiv> modulus of convergence is a good thing yeah
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15:01:25 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76046&oldid=76027 * Eric-D-Culver * (+285) /* Based on dimensions */  1D pointer new idea
15:01:54 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76047&oldid=76046 * Eric-D-Culver * (+1) /* Based on dimensions */ fixed typo
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15:56:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * FLeckami21 *  New user account
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16:21:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76048&oldid=75990 * FLeckami21 * (+188) /* Introductions */
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18:08:11 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76049&oldid=76047 * Orisphera * (+51) /* General Ideas */
18:12:08 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76050&oldid=76049 * Orisphera * (+161) /* General Ideas */
18:14:09 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76051&oldid=76050 * Orisphera * (+27) /* General Ideas */
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23:34:16 <zzo38> I read of a variant of PNG called PNG 16, which uses 16 bits per pixel in saturation.intensity.hue format, but because a lot of them are black, there is "black magic" added, which implements indexed colours, colour cycling, and transparency; the transparency can also adjust the background intensity, and cycling supports multiple cycles that can overlap and can run at different rates and can refer to other cycles and can contain transpar
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2020-07-20:

00:21:33 <arseniiv> zzo38: saturation, intensity, hue as in CIELUV or CIEUVW (or alike), or like poor little HSL?
00:22:05 <arseniiv> sorry I initiated discussion and then I just log off
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00:28:44 <zzo38> arseniiv: I think is more closely related to HSL
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02:24:17 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76052&oldid=76036 * DanielCristofani * (+330) /* Examples */
02:30:08 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76053&oldid=76029 * Caenbe * (+35) Added cat
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05:06:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76054&oldid=74264 * Truttle1 * (+606) Added Subleq
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09:32:56 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76055&oldid=76052 * DanielCristofani * (+63) 
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12:48:53 <Heavpoot> hi
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13:26:32 <moony> Heavpoot: Hello
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15:32:39 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76056&oldid=76055 * Sinthorion * (+1470) Strict Rui
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18:02:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Duckologist *  New user account
18:09:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76057&oldid=76048 * Duckologist * (+219) Introduced myself
18:10:52 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76058&oldid=65190 * Duckologist * (+0) Fixed misspelling ("commamd" > "command")
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18:31:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76059&oldid=65292 * Duckologist * (+375) /* "Stack-based" but uses variables? */ new section
18:32:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76060&oldid=76059 * Duckologist * (+92) Add "~~~~"
19:05:50 <zzo38> I could write some man pages for TeXnicard, although the distributor will have to edit some of them when making the package. Probably the man pages would be texnicard(1), texnicardpm(1), texnicardvc(1), and sepout(5), and the first three would mention what directory to find the other documentation files, as well as other files (such as system.ps and newdb.sql, both of which are needed at runtime).
19:06:44 <zzo38> How much is done with other programs, where the distributors will need to edit the man pages in this way?
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19:14:03 <t20kdc> zzo38: I recall that Miredo uses macroified manpages (as so: https://github.com/fgp/miredo/blob/1.2-patches/doc/miredo-server.8-in#L81 )
19:15:50 <zzo38> O, yes, troff macros would work, I suppose. Although, it looks like that isn't using troff macros; it is something else, it look like
19:26:07 <imode> managed to finish the `load` instruction for RAM. performs surprisingly quick.
19:26:27 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76061&oldid=76058 * Duckologist * (+1) Fix typo ("lenth" > "length")
19:28:35 <imode> https://hastebin.com/axerexubam.txt
19:31:50 <imode> performance isn't great but I think I can just expose some builtins to seek to a particular pattern left or right.
19:32:09 <imode> as opposed to having to move through each and every data bit.
19:47:29 <int-e> Oh btw, I complained about github using "Cancel" in a confusing way a while back. I've run into this again and this time I understand my thought process. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cancel-cancel.png ... I'm trying to cancel something, that's the last thing I clicked. It doesn't really matter what the text inside the popup says.
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20:04:08 <esowiki> [[Palace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76062&oldid=76038 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Predecesor */ typo
20:04:30 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76063 * Caenbe * (+821) Created page with "I think of esolang ideas as hobbies/mathematical exercises. The only language I've posted to the wiki is [[Affine Mess]], but there may be more coming. I'm currently working o..."
20:06:27 <b_jonas> int-e: does it also have "Would you like to consider such-and-such process? Yes, No, Cancel"
20:07:52 <int-e> I have a preference for [Yes] [Ok] [Continue].
20:08:29 <int-e> But no, I don't think it has that kind of confusing ternary logic.
20:08:38 <fizzie> Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail.
20:08:46 <int-e> TRUE|FALSE|FILE_NOT_FOUND
20:09:05 <myname> ah yes, good old dailywtf
20:09:12 <int-e> fizzie: that's an actual DOS prompt, or close enough to fool me
20:09:16 <myname> does that still exist?
20:10:04 <int-e> myname: of course?
20:10:24 <int-e> (I know, nothing is certain on the WWW)
20:10:53 <int-e> It got boring after a while though.
20:11:14 <myname> i remember the quality (and espacially the quantity) varying widely between entries
20:11:28 <zzo38> DOS is still sometimes used, such as with DOSBOX. Some people still write DOS programs.
20:11:40 <int-e> myname: That goes with the territory.
20:11:43 <fizzie> int-e: I looked around, and while I really feel like "Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail" did exist, the Internet suggests it was just "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" and then in DOS 3.3 changed to "Abort, Retry, Fail?".
20:11:58 <int-e> myname: It's a bit like writing comedy but they don't discard the 95% that are not funny enough.
20:12:31 <myname> i still remember my favourite comments about the doRunRun()
20:12:45 <zzo38> fizzie: With my own experience of DOS, that is what seems to be the case, and not "Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail".
20:12:45 <int-e> fizzie: Having both Abort and Fail is pretty awful.
20:13:15 <zzo38> (Although it might depend on what the operation is.)
20:13:37 <myname> https://thedailywtf.com/articles/comments/A-Method-by-Any-Other-Name there it is
20:13:57 <myname> "You met it on a Monday and your heart stood still. The doRunRunRun(), the doRunRun()."
20:13:59 <int-e> fizzie: I'm actually satisfied by the fact that all four verbs featured at some point in time.
20:14:50 <zzo38> Now I added this file for the distributor to set the directory names to be listed in the man page:  http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/bfa6bfece7ddb6fd
20:15:07 <fizzie> Visual Basic famously had the 'On Error Resume Next' directive, for when you didn't want to worry about error handling.
20:15:30 <myname> loved that
20:15:38 <fizzie> Well, s/had/has/, it's not like it's gone anywhere.
20:15:48 <fizzie> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/visual-basic/language-reference/statements/on-error-statement "Specifies that when a run-time error occurs, control goes to the statement immediately following the statement where the error occurred, and execution continues from that point."
20:16:45 <int-e> myname: is that a setup for a Duran Duran joke
20:16:46 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, and in the DOS BASIC also.
20:17:22 <myname> int-e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-qqi7-Q19k
20:23:22 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76064&oldid=76063 * Caenbe * (+0) Removed ambiguity
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20:41:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76065&oldid=76060 * Caenbe * (+346) 
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20:47:02 <esowiki> [[Transfinity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76066 * Hakerh400 * (+4585) +[[Transfinity]]
20:47:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76067&oldid=76039 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Transfinity]]
20:47:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76068&oldid=76040 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Transfinity]]
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21:05:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and I might add, since visual basic has stupid conditions that you can only recognize by catching an error, even such as looking up an object by name in some collections of objects, you often want to ignore errors for just one line, in which case On Error Resume Next is simpler. I still tend to use On Error Goto <named label>, because it's cleaner, and more versions of visual basic support 
21:05:38 <b_jonas> it.
21:11:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76069&oldid=76065 * Duckologist * (+160) /* -- (and ++) is used in code samples but not mention in specs? */ new section
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21:57:55 <esowiki> [[256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76070&oldid=76061 * IFcoltransG * (+84) /* Computational class */  Weakened claim about Turing completeness
22:07:13 <esowiki> [[Unicode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76071&oldid=69950 * IFcoltransG * (+130) A bit more detail
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22:44:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76072&oldid=76069 * Caenbe * (+221) 
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23:01:23 <ais523> <int-e> Oh btw, I complained about github using "Cancel" in a confusing way a while back. ← a reminder that under the modern UI principle where one button states the action you're trying to perform and the other states "Cancel", /both/ buttons should have been marked "Cancel"
23:01:51 <b_jonas> ais523: lol
23:02:08 <b_jonas> so it should be "Cancel, Cancel"? which one should be on the left?
23:02:34 <b_jonas> and which one should be the default for pressing enter, the other presumably getting activated from pressing escape or closing the window?
23:04:53 <zzo38> I should think, the one to perform the action is done if you push enter, and escape will make it to not do, can be the way to do.
23:05:07 <zzo38> (Although maybe it should be yes/no)
23:05:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but how about in the case of this "Cancel, Cancel" dialog?
23:07:34 <b_jonas> ais523: also, is that only when you cancel an action planned in the future where the action hasn't started and the UI is waiting in a dialog to give input for the action, or also when the action is already in progress and the user interrupted it and wants to abandon it mid-run?
23:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: the button to accept the cancel is on the right, to cancel the cancel is on the left
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23:11:08 <ais523> Return should accept the cancel, Esc should cancel the cancel
23:11:32 <ais523> also I think the latter of your two cases is more important, in the former then cancelling the action normally shouldn't require a confirmation
23:11:47 <ais523> unless it involves other people, in which case better wording would be, e.g., "are you sure you want to delete this appointment?"
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23:12:35 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, though in windows, cancelling an installer before it starts making changes usually still asks for confirmation, even if it's effectively required because it told you it can't install something due to lack of a dependency
23:13:06 <ais523> this is mostly just the installer manufacturers being self-important, isn't it?
23:13:15 <b_jonas> a cancel dialog can make sense for cases like that when you've made lots of tricky data entry in the dialog for the action that you might not want to have to repeat
23:13:22 <ais523> and the installers taking ages to load
23:13:23 <b_jonas> yes, probably
23:13:38 <b_jonas> they used to, these days they don't take that much time to load (on a modern machine)
23:13:41 <ais523> really, though, on a well-designed OS, the installer should require very little configuration or user intervention
23:15:06 <zzo38> The user may wish to customize the installation though
23:15:29 <b_jonas> ... I'd prefer them to give more choices to me. there are installers that insist on changing system-global settings or user-global settings that don't need to be changed to use the program, and installers that insist on installing system-globally if your user is in the administrator group that can gain privilages to do that, even though the installer can install the program user-locally if you run it 
23:15:35 <b_jonas> with a non-administrator user
23:15:43 <ais523> which OS is this on?
23:15:46 <b_jonas> windows 10
23:15:56 <b_jonas> and not all installers are like that, some are saner
23:16:04 <ais523> for NetHack4 I made the Windows installer system-global only, because the Windows Installer support for system-global versus user-global installation is actually broken
23:16:17 <ais523> it conditionally replaces some directories on the install path but not all of them
23:16:55 <ais523> there are other breakages, e.g. the intended use involves linking Start menu entries to registry entries for no obvious reason
23:17:19 <b_jonas> admittedly many installers on windows are much better
23:17:26 <ais523> NH4's installer hits a large number of validation failures if run through the official validator for installers, they're all intentional and all working around misfeatures
23:18:01 <b_jonas> I can install git for windows, which I install not really for git but for the usable MSYS installation and lots of simple MSYS programs bundled with it, and I can install that without changing anything global
23:18:09 <b_jonas> and there are other nice installers like that
23:19:30 <zzo38> Can it be downloaded without the installer?
23:19:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, as a self-extracting zip file that I can extract with 7zip
23:20:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I extract it, and then it has a post-install batch file that it says you have to run once to run git, but IIRC you don't need it to run MSYS
23:21:04 <b_jonas> this is how I install MSYS, with its putty-based mintty terminal, vim, and command-line utilities like find and grep, on windows machines these days
23:21:48 <b_jonas> it even installs a perl interpreter, though that one is one built for an MSYS target, which is not as good as one built for a windows target (in which windows support still sucks, mind you). this still applies to some of the other MSYS programs, but those are still usable.
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23:23:54 <zzo38> If you are on Windows 10 then you might want to install the program in WSL, perhaps, instead of MSYS
23:23:56 <b_jonas> I also install 7zip; that one does really need to access the registry, because I want the explorer plugin. If you only want the command-line client, you can just copy it; if you only want the 7z GUI program, I don't know if you need to install.
23:24:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: I haven't really researched WSL, but I don't think that's what I want
23:25:32 <b_jonas> I don't want a linux runtime on windows, I want utilities like grep and vim on windows, programs that make sense on either system, but I want a version that's close to something built to native windows, they just don't happen to have a native port close than that.
23:25:33 <zzo38> Certainly some programs you may want to be in Windows, although sometimes WSL will work, and sometimes you might want both, I suppose. But if the program is a Linux program and you are installing it on WSL, then I don't know if it has provisions for installing stuff into the start menu
23:26:49 <b_jonas> There are also other programs that I could probably use without at least a user-global installation on windows 10, but haven't yet figured out how to do it.
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23:29:39 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm asking about the difference between the two cases mostly because in the first case the labels would still be the same when the GUI language is different, whereas in the latter case they might differ
23:31:45 <ais523> ah, some languages have different words in common usage for "unschedule" versus "curtail"?
23:32:02 <ais523> I guess that's not surprising, there are unambiguous words for that in English, they just aren't used very often
23:33:37 <b_jonas> ais523: it depends, "interrupt" would sort of work for the latter in English, only that doesn't clearly say that you won't finish the work, you might continue it after an interruption; "abandon" or "exit" or "I changed my mind" might work in both cases
23:34:08 <b_jonas> I don't think there are unambiguous words for them in Hungarian either, but your preferred word might change
23:34:28 <b_jonas> because cancel buttons normally say "Mégse", which corresponds better to the first case
23:34:58 <ais523> "curtail" is almost unambiguous (in theory the verb could refer to scheduling the cancellation of an ongoing process at some future time, but that's unlikely to be what the user wants)
23:35:07 <ais523> but it's rarely used
23:35:57 <b_jonas> I guess there's also "give up"
23:36:18 <b_jonas> but only that, the formal equivalent "forfeit" wouldn't work
23:36:29 <ais523> now I'm amazed that "GO AWAY" isn't an INTERCAL command
23:36:44 <b_jonas> oh yeah, "leave"
23:37:05 <ais523> I guess it would jump to a random (numbered?) line and start executing from there? seems fairly easy to implement, albeit even less useful than most features in INTERCAL
23:37:44 <fizzie> I think almost all Finnish cancel buttons say "peruuta", which is the imperative mood of the verb "peruuttaa", which has a couple of context-sensitive uses (of a vehicle, to back up; of a marriage, to annul; and so on), even when better alternatives would exist.
23:38:08 <b_jonas> hmm, "annul"
23:38:27 <ais523> and I think INTERCAL is better off having commands that are quirky but usable, rather than entirely useless
23:38:38 <fizzie> (I'd like to see "dissolve" in a GUI as well.)
23:38:47 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is probably correct
23:38:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, when would you use that?
23:39:55 <b_jonas> "Abandon" would probably have worked on most cancel buttons in English, but it's probably too late to change that now
23:40:15 <fizzie> Maybe when you've made some sort of a grouping, and decide to remove it.
23:40:26 <ais523> b_jonas: it's still ambiguous in the cancel-a-cancel case
23:40:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes
23:40:55 <ais523> for what it's worth, "discard" has seen a recent surge of usage for the "accept a cancel" case
23:41:18 <b_jonas> hmm
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23:45:20 <b_jonas> by the way, another GUI confirmation dialog box that I dislike is in VBA, when you want to delete a module from the project. it asks something to the effect of "Would you like to export this module before deleting it?" and only has Yes and No as buttons. If it had a Cancel button to make it not delete the module, it would be better, but since it only has Yes and No, as a user you can think it's asking 
23:45:26 <b_jonas> to confirm deleting the module and give the opposite answer. 
23:47:07 <b_jonas> but that's a small complaint. the positive side is that you can script the VBA editor itself with the same VBA and just type something like VBE.Module("module name here").Remove into the Immediate window to delete a module without a confirmation prompt.
23:47:57 <fizzie> Will it delete the module for both yes and no? 
23:48:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but it won't delete it if you cancel the save dialog
23:49:18 <b_jonas> this is useful because importing a VBA module from a file (after deleting its previous version) is a reasonable way to do a string eval after running an external program to write you VBA code, and you may want that because VBA is not a very good language, so you may want to do computations in a separate program, though it seems you can also just mostly avoid VBA entirely and use the COM interface of the 
23:49:24 <b_jonas> program that you're macroing directly from a program in some other language
23:50:33 <b_jonas> with the possible exception that you may need to write at least a VBA stub for a custom command that you want to assign to a menu entry or toolbar button or keyboard shortcut in the program that you're macroing, but there's probably a way to do even that without VBA, I just don't know it
23:51:33 <b_jonas> plus of course in programs that have a macro recorder (the one that I'm macroing doesn't), that usually emits the syntax of only one macro language, with the notable exception of Excel
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23:53:32 <b_jonas> hmm, is there a version of Word after Word 6 that still has WordBasic but also has a COM interface? or maybe a version of CorelDraw or WordPerfect that has both CorelBasic and a COM interface? or a version of LibreOffice for windows with a COM interface?
23:54:10 <b_jonas> the latter might be the most likely, since I think you can't use COM interface on a non-windows platform
23:54:39 <b_jonas> or at least I think you can't use it on Linux, I don't know about windows
23:55:29 <b_jonas> there's a port of Excel 5, the program that introduced VBA, onto Mac OS classic, maybe that has VBA support
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23:58:37 <b_jonas> (and yes, Wine is a windows platform, just as Cygwin is a unix platform)
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23:59:04 <zzo38> There is XPCOM, but I don't know if they use it
23:59:54 <b_jonas> (and DOS4GW is a ... dunno)

2020-07-21:

00:00:51 <b_jonas> (that one is probably still a DOS platform)
00:02:04 <fizzie> A "DOS extender" is the standard term for DOS4GW and it's ilk, for better or worse.
00:02:50 <b_jonas> is there really an "its ilk"? I mean, are there ones like it that aren't just versions of DOS4GW?
00:03:05 <fizzie> Oh, sure.
00:03:55 <fizzie> CWSDPMI from DJGPP, maybe most popularly.
00:04:05 <b_jonas> I know there are DOS reimplementations, like freedos, the stuff in some windows NT versions, and the DOS in OS-2
00:04:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks, I'm not too familiar with DOS programming
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00:05:04 <fizzie> Oh, and PMODE/W, for Watcom.
00:06:06 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe actually the DOS-based windows platforms (Windows 3, Windows 95, Windows 95 OSR2, Windows 98) should count as "its ilk", when they're running a native program
00:10:44 <b_jonas> are all of those 32-bit DOS extenders, or are some of them 16-bit protected mode ones like Win16?
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00:20:31 <fizzie> All of those were for the 32-bit protected mode on a 386, I think. But I think 16-bit DPMI servers existed too.
00:36:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: is Windows 3.0 or windows 3.1 one of them?
00:36:45 <b_jonas> I don't know how DPMI works
00:41:45 <fizzie> TBH, I don't remember the details all that well, although I did know it moderately well at some point. Yes, I think Windows 3.x implements both 16- and 32-bit DPMI for DOS programs.
00:42:21 <b_jonas> only windows 3.1 I think, windows 3.0 doesn't
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01:04:56 <zzo38> Is there a 64-bit DPMI (or "DLMI")?
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02:10:55 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76073&oldid=68662 * YamTokTpaFa * (-2) /* Links */ Wait no NOT C++ but just C.
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02:36:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Stormboy876 *  New user account
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04:12:42 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76074&oldid=76053 * Caenbe * (+104) Clarification
04:21:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Past]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76075&oldid=71405 * Caenbe * (+401) Time travel doesn't matter?
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05:02:45 <imode> interesting patterns pop up where you least expect them. a better formulation for RAM in string rewrite rules, when utilizing the address:value pair approach, would be to always move the last-read value to the head of the list of pairs. you'd end up with more recently used addresses accessed far quicker which.. behaves suspiciously like a cache.
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06:58:25 <zzo38> Possibly in future once TeXnicard is made up more, some people may wish to set up SSH to access TeXnicard on the internet, so that it can be used from Windows as well as Linux. (If doing so, one thing that might be useful to provide there would be a program for users to manage groups, in order to control who has access to the card database.)
07:00:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76076&oldid=76072 * Duckologist * (+94) Fix typo and add "~~~~"
07:08:48 <zzo38> (The software is nevertheless designed to be usable locally, and does not use a internet connection, but to be able to import/export change sets so that you still can make collaboration with others using internet, or by copying the files to an external disk or CompactFlash or whatever)
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07:24:52 <rain1> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1285333002252247040.html this was cool
07:28:41 <Arcorann> That
07:29:04 <Arcorann> That's certainly a paranoid way of looking at it
07:39:16 <rain1> A pretty interesting concept though!
07:39:39 <rain1> it is unfortunate how opaque these modern AI things are
07:39:58 <rain1> since they're just self organized and automatically trained soups of weights
07:59:46 <int-e> Perhaps the main mistake here is that we tend to train a single AI for a task. So it'll make consistently flawed decisions at massive scale. This doesn't happen when you delegate similar tasks to people (who are far from perfect) because individuals can't be scaled up, so you are forced to allow some diversity in the decision making process.
08:00:35 <int-e> I don't know, just a thought on top of the usual idea that AIs should be able to justify their decisions in some human comrpehensible form.
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08:18:10 <Taneb> Hmm, Girl Genius didn't update yesterday
08:19:13 <int-e> Hmm, pity.
08:19:35 <int-e> I was wondering how Krosp will cope with the ensuing poisoning.
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08:35:16 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76077&oldid=75477 * Osmarks * (+205) more betterness, less worseness
08:49:39 <rain1> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a8dd/2ef009df7601cdbc90332765a56a24c7821c.pdf
08:49:49 <rain1> interesting result, ww is not context free but wm where m =/= w is
08:50:33 <int-e> seen it before, it's a fun exercise
08:51:09 <int-e> I thought it was folklore though.
08:53:10 <int-e> more to the point, I thought that was the canonical example for showing that CFGs are not closed under complement.
08:53:37 <myname> i have to think about why ww is not context free, that's a shame, i should know that
08:53:44 <myname> ah
08:53:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76078 * Osmarks * (+3524) Created page with "<div style='font-size: 0px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 1px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 2px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 3px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size:..."
08:53:53 <myname> nevermind
08:54:14 <myname> irc rubberducking as good as ever
08:55:30 <myname> how old is this paper?
08:55:38 <int-e> Ah... it's one of those things where pumping is not quite enough, so you need something a bit stronger like Ogden's lemma.
08:56:47 <int-e> myname: well it cites 2012 stuff
08:56:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76079&oldid=76078 * Osmarks * (+3525) 
08:58:03 <int-e> [7] is golden
08:59:07 <rain1> lol
09:03:04 <int-e> https://dblp.uni-trier.de/pers/hd/t/Tomaszewski:Zach is the same person
09:03:13 <int-e> not exactly the formal languages expert :P
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09:10:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76080&oldid=76079 * Osmarks * (+3618) 
09:10:51 <esowiki> [[256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76081&oldid=76070 * Duckologist * (+288) Better example and information for 5 and 2 command, and added how variables can be printed (also fixed typos)
09:10:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76082&oldid=76080 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:12:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76083&oldid=76082 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:13:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76084&oldid=76083 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:14:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76085&oldid=76084 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:15:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76086&oldid=76085 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:16:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76087&oldid=76086 * Osmarks * (+3617) 
09:19:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76088&oldid=76087 * Osmarks * (+4208) 
09:22:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76089&oldid=76088 * Osmarks * (+3836) 
09:25:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76090&oldid=76089 * Osmarks * (+3866) 
09:27:26 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76091&oldid=75834 * RocketRace * (+38) Clear up syntax
09:29:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76092&oldid=76090 * Osmarks * (+4845) 
09:29:06 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76093&oldid=76091 * RocketRace * (+43) /* Syntax */
09:31:00 <int-e> WTF?!
09:32:39 <shachaf> Wow, what a user talk page.
09:32:40 <int-e> ...those user talk page edits...
09:33:27 <myname> wait, you can insert html there?
09:35:08 <int-e> I don't think it's arbitrary CSS.
09:35:15 <int-e> Uh
09:35:46 <int-e> HTML. Mind wandering: allowing custom CSS is why this is allowed for <div> elements, I think.
09:41:19 <Arcorann> Surely that's breaking some sort of rule about talk pages
09:41:24 <int-e> myname: So basically I think this is working as designed... but CSS is crazy.
09:41:41 <myname> css IS crazy
09:41:56 <myname> css3 and html5 together are tc iirc
09:42:28 <int-e> "HTML5" is a huge bag of crap.
09:42:34 <myname> how so?
09:43:13 <myname> what i basically know about html5 is video/audio and also elements like dialog that look weirdly foreign to me
09:43:39 <int-e> Because it's not referring just to a plain markup language; it includes DOM and a lot of other Javascript crap.
09:44:03 <int-e> Or that's how I understand it.
09:44:17 <myname> i recently re-learned about the navigator object
09:44:30 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#New_APIs
09:44:39 <myname> the whole object is basically hardcoded legacy api
09:45:11 <myname> (and of course i stumbled over it while looking at code i kinda have to work with)
09:45:50 <myname> web storage is awesome!
09:46:59 <myname> what annoys me the most are all those websites that ask for permission to send notification for no reason
09:49:20 <int-e> you know that the primary use of those technologies will be better tracking
09:49:33 <fizzie> A lot of them do the notification thing on the initial page load, before you've even seen any of the content, that's the stupidest part.
09:49:43 <myname> well, maybe, but i wouldn't want to go back to the web of the 90s
09:50:38 <int-e> What was that odd notification service where the browser calls home to ask for new messages and the website gets an (identifiable) external link to send those messages to?
09:50:43 <int-e> It's all pretty terrible.
09:51:45 <int-e> Somebody should make a proper glossary for such terms. "richer browsing experience" = targeted ads.
09:52:24 <int-e> (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdata_(HTML) )
09:52:46 <int-e> "more relevant results" = targeted ads
09:53:33 <int-e> It's really too bad that Google (with Chrome as a driver) is so powerful in the W3C.
09:54:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76094&oldid=76057 * Heavpoot * (+1372) 
09:55:12 <myname> it's difficult
09:55:22 <myname> there is really good stuff
09:55:46 <myname> i even am kinda okay with that whole "oh no, our adblockers will not work anymore" api change
10:01:39 <int-e> I suppose they can do whatever they want with their browser. I'd feel better about it if nobody used it though :P
10:03:01 <myname> i still can't my wrap around how they manage to destroy their mobile browser
10:03:40 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76095&oldid=75345 * Heavpoot * (+1686) 
10:05:48 -!- user24 has joined.
10:05:52 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76096&oldid=76077 * Osmarks * (+132) 
10:06:16 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76097&oldid=76095 * Heavpoot * (+12254) 
10:06:26 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76098&oldid=76096 * Osmarks * (-1) 
10:06:52 <int-e> btw, while I'm being paranoid: who's behind gravatar and what are they doing with all their tracking data?
10:07:19 <int-e> Also, am I to assume that Heavpoot and Osmarks are the same person?
10:11:07 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76099&oldid=76097 * Heavpoot * (+36205) 
10:19:37 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76100&oldid=76098 * Osmarks * (+267) 
10:22:54 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76101&oldid=76099 * Heavpoot * (-49539) Replaced content with "[[User:Heavpoot]] is a humanoid entity which exists, and is corporeal, much like most members of this community. ==Languages made== * Various undocumented esolangs which w..."
10:27:50 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76102 * Osmarks * (+4) Created page with "TODO"
10:28:02 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76103&oldid=76100 * Osmarks * (+72) 
10:28:38 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76104&oldid=76102 * Osmarks * (+102) 
10:29:20 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76105&oldid=76101 * Heavpoot * (+536) 
10:31:14 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76106&oldid=76103 * Osmarks * (+124) 
10:34:18 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76107&oldid=76105 * Heavpoot * (+134) 
10:37:40 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76108&oldid=76028 * Heavpoot * (-63) fixed typos
10:38:15 <myname> i still don't get why google made duet mode useless
10:40:35 <esowiki> [[Main Page]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76109&oldid=76108 * Int-e * (+63) Undo revision 76108 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- revert vandalism
10:40:56 * int-e sighs dramatically.
10:50:01 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76110&oldid=76093 * RocketRace * (+300) Add IO pipes
10:53:29 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76111&oldid=76110 * RocketRace * (-23) /* I/O */
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10:55:10 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76112&oldid=76111 * RocketRace * (+18) /* I/O */
10:56:34 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76113&oldid=76112 * RocketRace * (+4) /* I/O */
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10:57:42 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76114&oldid=76113 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Examples */
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10:58:45 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76115&oldid=76114 * RocketRace * (+20) /* Examples */
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11:18:43 <arseniiv> @messages-quiet
11:18:43 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
11:18:49 <arseniiv> @messages
11:18:49 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
11:19:00 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76116&oldid=74420 * Dion * (+61) 
11:19:09 <arseniiv> @botsnack
11:19:09 <lambdabot> :)
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11:24:01 <arseniiv> @let { data CoNat = Z | S CoNat | Inf; prec' Z = Nothing; prec' (S n) = Just n; prec' Inf = Just Inf; succ' Nothing = Z; succ' (Just Inf) = Inf; succ' (Just n) = S n; } -- explicit encoding of conaturals is useful sometimes, and in this formulation prec' and succ' are mutual inverses, though this succ' may be less useful than its summands
11:24:03 <lambdabot>  .L.hs:189:14: error:
11:24:03 <lambdabot>      Multiple declarations of ‘S’
11:24:03 <lambdabot>      Declared at: .L.hs:164:12
11:24:29 <arseniiv> > :t S
11:24:31 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
11:24:38 <arseniiv> @type S
11:24:39 <lambdabot> Ski
11:24:44 <arseniiv> ahaha
11:24:51 <arseniiv> @info Ski
11:24:51 <lambdabot> Ski
11:24:51 <myname> that's fair!
11:25:00 <myname> what are conaturals?
11:25:20 <arseniiv> this is when you treat `data Nat = Z | S Nat` as a codata
11:25:34 <myname> what
11:25:44 <arseniiv> they are, primarily, a coalgebra, but they admit successor anyway
11:26:13 <myname> i don't get how that's different from naturals, maybe besides inf
11:26:19 <arseniiv> I’m bad at expaining this, yeah
11:27:21 <arseniiv> Inf and its properties are a natural (oh, pun) consequence of this codata-coalgebra vs. algebra thing
11:27:44 <arseniiv> ah, they aren’t just a coalgebra, they are a final coalgebra, like Nat is an initial algebra
11:27:50 <arseniiv> for the same functor
11:27:58 <arseniiv> yes, that should make this a bit clearer
11:28:03 <arseniiv> and the functor is Maybe
11:28:28 <arseniiv> (that is, in mathematical terms, X ↦ 1 + X)
11:29:27 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76117&oldid=76056 * DanielCristofani * (+108) /* Examples */
11:29:34 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76118&oldid=75958 * D * (+34) 
11:32:10 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76119&oldid=76104 * Osmarks * (+1362) 
11:32:21 <arseniiv> an initial algebra means there is an unique morphism from it to any other algebra on the same functor, and now I tried to write its signature and mixed up something
11:35:31 <arseniiv> that should be { foldNat :: Nat → (Maybe a → a) → a; foldNat Z f = f Nothing; foldNat (S n) f = f (Just $ foldNat n f) } if I’m not mistaken
11:36:18 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76120&oldid=76118 * D * (+1) /* Instruction list */
11:36:40 <arseniiv> and succ' :: Maybe Nat → Nat is a Nat algebra itself
11:41:20 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76121&oldid=76120 * D * (+52) /* Primalty Tester */
11:41:54 <arseniiv> now, CoNat is a final coalgebra which means there is a unique morphism to it from any Maybe-coalgebra, which means
11:41:54 <arseniiv> { unfoldCoNat :: a → (a → Maybe a) → CoNat; unfoldCoNat x f = case f x of { Nothing → Z; Just y → S $ unfoldCoNat y f } }
11:41:54 <arseniiv> but this definition doesn’t work properly with an explicit encoding, as it should somehow detect infinite recursion and return Inf in that case. If we take plain Nat and treat it as codata, that would work fine, because Inf is encoded as `inf = S inf` there
11:43:40 <arseniiv> but we also of course have that Nat is a coalgebra (there is precNat :: Nat → Maybe Nat) and CoNat is an algebra (succ' above), just not the final/initial ones
11:45:03 <arseniiv> I used an explicit encoding of CoNat in a non-haskell implemetation of “run the machine an amount of steps, or to the end, and tell if it was aborted or halted naturally”
11:46:31 <arseniiv> in a lazy language of course an implicit “Nat is codata” encoding suffices just right before one wants to know if they specified an infinite amount of steps or not, in finite time
11:48:10 <arseniiv> “run the machine an amount of steps, or to the end, and tell if it was aborted or halted naturally” → and the latter just uses prec' to decide if there are any available steps to continue. CoNat values themselves are black boxes
12:04:22 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76122&oldid=76119 * Osmarks * (+51) 
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14:58:02 <esowiki> [[256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76123&oldid=76081 * Duckologist * (+265) Add interpreters section and another example
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16:30:29 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76124&oldid=76035 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Object */ fix typo
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17:15:55 <zzo38> I dreamt that Knuth wrote a Pokemon fan story. At one point, someone had to switch a robot from big-endian to small-endian.
17:17:17 <zzo38> Also, at one point, someone was trying to catch a pokemon, but a second guy had tricked him and was actually following him (using some sort of quantum link) and caught the pokemon instead. But when the second guy tried to open the ball, the pokemon always disliked the second guy and went with the first guy, but refused to enter the first guy's ball and always went in the second guy's ball.
17:25:08 <zzo38> (I would think that such a thing would be inconvenient for everyone involved.)
17:31:09 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76125&oldid=76116 * Dion * (+21) 
17:44:13 <arseniiv> zzo38: very strange things
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20:37:34 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76126&oldid=70822 * Void * (+447) /* Distinguishing features */
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20:43:21 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76127&oldid=76126 * Void * (-1) /* Computational class */
21:00:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Eiim *  New user account
21:03:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76128&oldid=76094 * Eiim * (+217) Introduced self
21:20:30 <ski> the generic convergent sequence is not discrete
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2020-07-22:

00:07:25 <salpynx> Thanks HackEso! You just helped me troubleshoot a work-related problem involving UTF-8 encoded Tamil and binary MARC (1960s binary format for library) records. Sharing because that's pretty esoteric, and surprising since joining #esoteric was more for procrastination than getting things done.
00:07:42 <salpynx> `icode வி
00:07:44 <HackEso> ​[U+0BB5 TAMIL LETTER VA] [U+0BBF TAMIL VOWEL SIGN I]
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00:10:16 <zzo38> I cleaned the computer; that seemed to to reduce the CPU temperature by 7 kelvin, although the motherboard temperature and graphics temperature seem to be the same as before. The room temperature seems to have increased, although that might be due to something else. (The room temperature as measured by a red temperature)
00:10:22 <salpynx> FTR, no Unicode was incorrectly encoded, I needed confirmation I was locating utf8 byte strings within a binary format correctly. The problem was not because of Unicode :)
00:16:55 <salpynx> Room-temperature computing is a worthwhile goal. Definitely harder for some computers.
00:23:16 <zzo38> Is it expected that the mother board temperature should match the room temperature?
00:30:28 <esowiki> [[The Past]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76129&oldid=71820 * Caenbe * (+432) Added implementaion
00:33:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Past]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76130&oldid=76075 * Caenbe * (-84) Done.
00:44:18 <salpynx> ... I was facetiously referencing room-temperature quantum computing efforts, but I guess motherboard temperature can't be _exactly_ room temp. If so it'd be just computing brownian motion, and no work will be getting done.
00:45:16 <zzo38> The motherboard temperature is only slightly higher than the room temperature; the CPU temperature is higher than that.
00:49:15 <salpynx> oh, I thought you loosely meant processor when you said 'motherboard'
00:53:08 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle  
01:20:28 <salpynx> ?run 1.380649e-23 * 7 * log 2
01:20:30 <lambdabot>  6.698950731850356e-23
01:21:30 <salpynx> I believe that's the number of Joules per bit erasure you have (theoretically?) saved by reducing your CPU by 7 Kelvin
01:21:58 <salpynx> ... wow I am procrastinating now.
01:24:26 <salpynx> 67 whole yocto Joules
01:25:49 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76131&oldid=76125 * Caenbe * (+1) Fixed grammatical number
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02:24:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76132 * Caenbe * (+271) Created talk page with idea for TC proof
02:34:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76133&oldid=76132 * Caenbe * (-271) That was hasty. It might actually be non-TC.
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02:42:52 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76134&oldid=74592 * Caenbe * (+331) Added non-TCness proof
02:44:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76135 * Eric-D-Culver * (+258) Created page with "The second example code does not do what you say it does. When the insect is reached, the stack will have AAAB, where A and B are the two inputted characters. --~~~~"
02:53:44 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76136&oldid=76134 * Caenbe * (-331) Undo revision 76134 by [[Special:Contributions/Caenbe|Caenbe]] ([[User talk:Caenbe|talk]]) (Not finite. Sorry. I'm stopping myself now.)
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03:49:15 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76137&oldid=76115 * RocketRace * (+64) /* Clarify escapes */
03:50:16 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76138&oldid=76137 * RocketRace * (-20) /* Examples */
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06:00:29 <esowiki> [[Top-based turning]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76139&oldid=75687 * Eric-D-Culver * (+1) /* Outputs "3" */ output character is .
06:01:12 <esowiki> [[Top-based turning]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76140&oldid=76139 * Eric-D-Culver * (+0) /* Counter from 0 to 4 */ output character is .
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06:44:38 <int-e> I'm finding https://pwmarcz.pl/kaboom/ so addictive.
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06:55:22 <shachaf> Finally a reasonable game of mine's weeper.
06:58:38 <int-e> it's a devious one... rather than getting frustrated at the game for making you guess you get the chance of getting frustrated at yourself for missing forced conclusions (of various degrees of obviousness)
06:59:31 <int-e> Oh and if you find the presets boring, you can increase the board size.
07:00:06 <int-e> (The link isn't new, I believe I found this game via this channel a few years back.)
07:00:34 <int-e> But maybe it was somewhere else. We definitely discussed it here.
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07:05:34 <int-e> One slightly unfortunate feature is that when you're left with a 50/50 choice that can provably never go away you still have to progress on the rest of the board until you're forced to guess there as well before you are allowed to hazard a guess.
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07:13:35 <int-e> The ultra-violence mode is pretty cute too... not the hardest, but pretty different from ordinary minesweeper because easily half of the moves are of the forced guess type.
07:14:12 <int-e> which at least in my case leads to very non-random looking boards in the end.
07:15:30 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/uv.png ... I wonder how much strategy this reveals :)
07:16:45 <shachaf> Oh, that's interesting, you can infer things about how people played from a completed board?
07:17:12 <shachaf> Also look at how GPT-3 has mastered category theory: https://gist.github.com/ekmett/11a0e1f49b73a2feab287373ddaf68cd
07:17:17 <shachaf> In particular the ending.
07:18:48 <shachaf> Hmm, the nonlocality of this is kind of bizarre.
07:19:04 <int-e> shachaf: maybe if you have more than one sample... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/uv2.png
07:19:22 <shachaf> I mean, if I reach an isolated corner that needs guessing, I shouldn't guess immediately (which would be the time-saving strategy in regular Minesweeper), I should save it until I have to guess. Right?
07:19:41 <int-e> you'll see that there are many more straight lines than there should be... and that's because of a preference in how I'm guessing.
07:20:03 <int-e> shachaf: right
07:20:29 <shachaf> That makes sense, I was doing that too.
07:28:30 <rain1> oh wait
07:28:31 <rain1> i shouldn't read this
07:28:38 <rain1> i find the yoneda lemma hard enough already
07:28:52 <rain1> i don't want to get misled by some AI generated version is slightly wrong..
07:29:10 <rain1> that ending was 100
07:35:05 <int-e> shachaf: I suspect that Kaboom can seriously mess with somebody who's actually good (i.e. fast) at regular minesweeper.
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08:27:57 <b_jonas> oh, "reduce the CPU temperature by 7 kelvin", not "to 7 kelvin"
08:28:50 <b_jonas> "motherboard temperature can't be _exactly_ room temp" => it could be if you turned the chasis into a fridge so it's cooler than room temperature around the motherboard
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09:05:27 <int-e> how do you define "motherboard temperature" ;)
09:05:51 <int-e> Some weighted average maybe? Ironically you probably care most about the (literal) hotspots.
09:11:17 <shachaf> Hmm, rr has ptrace emulation, that's pretty fancy.
09:11:33 <shachaf> I mean that it uses ptrace but it can trace a program that also uses ptrace on the same process by proxying the ptrace calls.
09:11:33 <int-e> `? rr
09:11:36 <HackEso> rr? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:11:46 <shachaf> https://rr-project.org/
09:12:18 <shachaf> It's a program that records program execution and then lets you replay it in a debugger.
09:12:33 <int-e> oh, fancy
09:12:48 <shachaf> Mostly by remembering the state of memory etc. and the results of every system call, so it can fake responses to those system calls.
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09:13:03 <shachaf> And also nondeterministic instructions, in various ways? Some of them aren't completely clear to me.
09:13:13 <int-e> why rr, "record run"?
09:13:28 <shachaf> record replay? I don't know.
09:13:52 <int-e> pffft, chaos mode
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09:15:59 <shachaf> Maybe I should write a debugger. How hard can it be?
09:21:48 <int-e> the usual
09:22:04 <int-e> easy (or, at least, fun) to get started, impossible to finish
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09:37:26 <int-e> That may be too optimistic though, there's quite a bit to do before you can even do *something* beyond tracing syscalls (which is *relatively* easy)... lots of poking around in the subject's memory, lots of platformspecific things right from the start.
09:38:14 <shachaf> Yes, you would need to get DWARF data to do most things people want from debuggers.
09:39:37 <shachaf> Or PDB or something, I guess. They're all complicated.
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10:49:52 <esowiki> [[256]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76141&oldid=76123 * Duckologist * (+389) Add infobox
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10:57:23 <esowiki> [[User:Duckologist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76142 * Duckologist * (+509) Create my own user page
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11:03:34 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76143 * RocketRace * (+5120) Create the incomplete page.
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13:28:30 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I think the inverse of succ is usually called pred, as in predecessor and succsesor, as opposed to prec for preceding and succeeding
13:30:39 <wib_jonas> reference: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.6.3/docs/html/libraries/base-4.6.0.1/Prelude.html#v:pred
13:32:29 <Taneb> Hmm, Girl Genius still hasn't updated. I'm getting worried for the Foglios
13:40:49 <int-e> https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Forum:2020-07-20_(Monday) (with links to facebook (didn't click) and reddit)
13:45:31 <Taneb> OK
13:45:37 <Taneb> That's... net good news, I think
13:46:04 <int-e> it's news
13:46:15 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76144&oldid=76143 * RocketRace * (+14) /* Stack operations */
13:51:51 <int-e> Taneb: huh, I missed the bite mark in Friday's GG (panel 2)... the poisoning may be mutual ;)
14:00:29 <rain1> i wish I was reading this comic but i feel like im 10 years behind
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14:05:23 <int-e> rain1: it's easy, start at http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021104 and click on the image until you run out ;)
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14:18:52 <esowiki> [[LogStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76145&oldid=70830 * Silver * (+32) forgot to mention prefix required to translate to brainfuck
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15:05:27 <arseniiv_impostr> Hello from a rocking chair away from home!
15:06:35 <arseniiv_impostr> I forgot what beautiful software I used from my other phone the other day and now I write from some beta
15:09:14 <arseniiv_impostr> Maybe someone did notice what client name that one had?..
15:09:41 <arseniiv_impostr> That was a week or so ago
15:12:12 <arseniiv_impostr> K bye
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16:25:04 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76146&oldid=75438 * ZippyMagician * (+16) 
16:25:19 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76147&oldid=76146 * ZippyMagician * (-2) Whoops
16:26:02 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76148&oldid=75600 * ZippyMagician * (+2) /* Cat Program */
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22:15:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Clunk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76149 * Eric-D-Culver * (+177) Clunk is Turing complete
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2020-07-23:

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00:24:38 <ski> int-e : ohh .. i remember i mentioned something like those rules, years ago, in #haskell
00:24:43 <ski> shachaf : oh, reminds a bit of I/O tabling in Mercury ?
00:25:13 <shachaf> What does?
00:29:29 <zzo38> How is I/O tabling in Mercury is working?
00:34:11 <ski> rr
00:35:48 <shachaf> Ah, interesting.
00:36:21 <ski> it memoizes the calls (inputs, outputs) to I/O primitives (representing the uniquely threaded token of type `io.state' as an integer, incremented by primitive I/O ops, iirc), so that when you use "retry" in the procedural debugger, it'll use the recorded events, rather than actually do the I/O again
00:36:32 <shachaf> If you structure your program (or runtime) to work this way, it isn't so difficult to make it work yourself.
00:36:54 <shachaf> But it doesn't work that well if you use any libraries, and it doesn't work well with multithreading.
00:37:23 <zzo38> O, that is how it work
00:37:27 <shachaf> It sounds like a neat language feature.
00:37:38 <ski> see "Idempotent I/O for safe time travel" by Zoltan Somogyi in 2003-09 at <https://www.mercurylang.org/documentation/papers.html#aadebug03-paper>
00:38:20 <ski> also used by the declarative debugger, iirc
00:39:03 <shachaf> Man, what if there was a recommendation service for papers? I have 94 papers in this directory. I bet that's plenty to come up with good papers I'd want to read.
00:39:12 <shachaf> Maybe I can ask GPT-3.
00:39:22 <ski> who's GPT-3 ?
00:40:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: there are sites that let you find reverse citations, you can often find recommended papers that way. and obviously you can look at citations too.
00:41:38 <shachaf> ski: OpenAI's new language model.
00:41:50 <ski> dunno what OpenAI is, either
00:42:14 <shachaf> It's a company.
00:42:26 <shachaf> I posted some links to GPT-3 generated text above, I think.
00:42:32 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/ekmett/11a0e1f49b73a2feab287373ddaf68cd
00:42:38 <ski> natural language ?
00:42:44 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/ekmett/a72c19715aa8277428324dfaa6d73074
00:42:47 <shachaf> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/runarorama/e0b9107f707ef61db93eb67e4823798e/raw/e38121da6a013d1286199371e0aacc81b09b7232/gistfile1.txt
00:42:50 <shachaf> Yes.
00:42:53 <b_jonas> `recipes
00:42:54 <HackEso> recipes? No such file or directory
00:42:55 <b_jonas> `recipe
00:42:57 <HackEso> las, lemon juice, and all the chicken. Keep brown sugar in a sieve and \  carrots and add the vegetables and cook for about 20 \  minutes. In a large bowl, combine flour, baking dissolved and \  soup. \   \  Yield: 3/4 cup cornstarch fat each. \   \  Source: The Barrie Louisiana by Rocky BAKING WAMANE BISCOTTid \   \  From: Pat Anne Rolls: \   \  From The Smith: Per serving: 415 calories, 2 g fiber. \   \  Posted by: Shemoon nate: India, its: 
00:43:24 <ski> second one 404s
00:43:47 <shachaf> Are you sure? It works here.
00:44:45 <b_jonas> where can I download OEIS dumps these days?
00:47:40 <shachaf> There is http://oeis.org/wiki/Welcome#Compressed_Versions
00:48:27 <b_jonas> thanks
00:48:43 <b_jonas> that's not a full archive though
00:49:11 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76150 * Hakerh400 * (+2826) +[[Boolshit]]
00:49:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76151&oldid=76067 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Boolshit]]
00:49:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76152&oldid=76068 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Boolshit]]
00:49:45 <ski> strange, works now
00:51:25 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76153&oldid=76150 * Hakerh400 * (+1) fix typos
00:53:35 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76154&oldid=76153 * Hakerh400 * (+85) 
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01:18:43 <b_jonas> in that case, how do I list recently edited sequences in OEIS? that would let someone make an up-to-date mirror that they can distribute as downloadable compressed dumps
01:25:58 <tswett[m]> Chwelp, I want to start writing another operating system.
01:26:03 <tswett[m]> I'm gonna call this one "batbat".
01:26:16 <tswett[m]> And I think I'm gonna use NASM.
01:26:29 <tswett[m]> Step one, I want to figure out how to get NASM to just output a file that's 50000h bytes long.
01:38:29 <tswett[m]> I wonder if I can tell it I want a section which starts at byte 50000h and which is 0 bytes long.
01:46:04 <Lykaina> Do jokes like "Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?" just make you want to drool?
01:52:07 <shachaf> Pft, using NASM rather than writing your own assembler?
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07:11:27 <int-e> `? like
07:11:29 <HackEso> like? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:15:23 <shachaf> How do you?
07:17:06 <int-e> it's just the wrong keyword I think
07:17:07 <int-e> `? this
07:17:09 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
07:17:26 <shachaf> Well, I'm asking about the specific manner in which you.
07:17:34 <shachaf> But maybe I can demonstrate.
07:17:36 <shachaf> Do you like this?
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10:20:59 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76155&oldid=76154 * Hakerh400 * (+1) 
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12:38:42 <wib_jonas> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4916 "The Busy Beaver Frontier"
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15:39:06 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76156 * Caenbe * (+4385) Created Selmotic
15:40:47 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76157&oldid=76064 * Caenbe * (-418) Update
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15:45:29 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76158&oldid=76156 * Caenbe * (+5) /* Execution */ Link
15:47:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76159&oldid=76151 * Caenbe * (+15) /* S */ Added Selmotic
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18:58:00 <int-e> `"
18:58:02 <HackEso> 1/1:861) <kmc> i can only hope that the 55 year old nuclear reactor 2 blocks away from my house is too old to have SCADA \ 1138) <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin  <kmc> such shame, very failure
18:58:14 <int-e> fungot: do you believe in sufficiently smart compilers?
18:58:14 <fungot> int-e: we on the government benches.
18:58:27 <int-e> ^style irc
18:58:27 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
18:58:34 <int-e> fungot: how about now?
18:58:34 <fungot> int-e: something stinks here. hopefully he'll return while i'm coming there, then). since this system doesn't have classes
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19:12:09 <fizzie> I've heard a sufficiently advanced compiler is indistinguishable from magic.
19:16:08 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76160&oldid=76158 * Caenbe * (+11) Not really a tape since there's no explicit tape pointer
19:18:18 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76161&oldid=76160 * Caenbe * (+24) /* Consequences */ Added cat
19:22:28 <int-e> . o O ( a sufficiently advanced compiler will break your code in ways you've never imagined )
19:22:57 <int-e> But yes, of course it's magic.
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19:30:11 <int-e> Taneb: https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Forum:2020-07-22_(Wednesday)#Message_from_Kaja (wow that sounds nasty, hope the worst of it is over)
19:31:52 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76162&oldid=76051 * Caenbe * (+245) /* Based on dimensions */
19:32:38 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76163&oldid=76157 * Caenbe * (-135) I don't know why I didn't put this of List of ides in the 1st place
19:51:54 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76164&oldid=76161 * Caenbe * (+77) /* How pointers work in this language */
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20:17:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76165&oldid=56180 * Heavpoot * (+168) 
20:24:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76166&oldid=76165 * Int-e * (-168) Undo revision 76165 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- revert vandalism
20:25:22 <int-e> can we ban this person already
20:28:09 <int-e> (re: esowiki edits by Heavpoot, for those who're ignoring esowiki)
20:29:00 <shachaf> int-e does not like this.
20:29:25 <int-e> shachaf: maybe you'll like https://mobile.twitter.com/gemelket/status/1283170929984634880
20:29:25 <imode> what even is his goal.
20:29:42 <int-e> imode: I imagine a 11 year old who finds this funny
20:30:06 <int-e> Err, an 11 year old. Should've stuck with 13.
20:31:14 <shachaf> int-e: That's pretty good.
20:32:30 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76167&oldid=65088 * Randairox * (+0) 
20:35:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76168 * Heavpoot * (+27361) Created page with "<div style='line-height:0;transform:rotate(10deg);width:1000px;'><div style='background-color:black;color:white;text-align:center;width:50px;height:50px;display:inline-block;'..."
20:40:27 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76169&oldid=76155 * Hakerh400 * (-16) rm dangling title
20:41:26 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76170&oldid=76167 * Randairox * (-20) accuracy
20:42:51 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76171&oldid=68597 * Heavpoot * (-26) 
20:43:48 <fizzie> Yeah, let's see if we can figure out the block mechanism.
20:44:30 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76172&oldid=76171 * Int-e * (+26) Undo revision 76171 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- vandalizing other's user pages is not okay either
20:45:49 <fizzie> Special:Block seems right, but do I make this indefinite, or two weeks, or some other random time? 
20:46:30 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76173&oldid=76172 * Heavpoot * (-26) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/348702212110680064/735960938322198598/unknown.png see this.
20:46:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block  * Fizzie *  blocked [[User:Heavpoot]] with an expiration time of 1 month (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages: Random acts of vandalism, e.g. Esolang:About and User:SoundOfScripting.
20:47:25 <int-e> Do I trust that screenshot? They should really log in themselves then. In context this was obviously vandalism.
20:50:23 <fizzie> Well, the Esolang:About and the main page edits were inexcusable enough, even if this was some sort of weird user-sanctioned ritual.
20:51:09 <int-e> Yeah the question is whether I want to revert the latest edit to User:SoundOfScripting.
20:52:36 <int-e> I guess I'll leave it :-/
20:53:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76174&oldid=69348 * SoundOfScripting * (+349) unban Heav please
20:54:30 <int-e> I guess that authenticates it.
20:54:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76175&oldid=76174 * SoundOfScripting * (-1) fixed formatting error
20:56:56 <Taneb> int-e: ooooof
20:59:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76176&oldid=76175 * Fizzie * (+527) /* Edits by User:Heavpoot */ Response.
20:59:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76177&oldid=76176 * Fizzie * (+79) /* Edits by User:Heavpoot */ I don't know how to sign. :/
21:00:07 <int-e> fizzie: --~~~~
21:00:23 <fizzie> Yeah, I do actually know that, I just never remember to actually do it.
21:00:52 <int-e> That makes that comment very odd :P
21:01:01 <int-e> Oh wait.
21:01:24 <int-e> fizzie: Sorry, I didn't realize you had two edits, and I managed to look at the unsigned page.
21:02:04 <int-e> So I thought, momentarily, that you left an unsigned comment with "I don't know how to sign. :/" ad the edit message.
21:02:10 <int-e> *as
21:02:15 <fizzie> Right, I can see how it would look like that.
21:03:01 <int-e> kind of funny, actually.
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21:05:32 <int-e> Maybe the point that Heavpoot doesn't get is that the esolangs wiki is *not* a joke project, even though it's largely *about* joke projects.
21:06:24 <int-e> (of course there's also some pretty serious computability theory)
21:07:45 <myname> i always forget how to sign, too
21:08:17 <fizzie> I mean, it's a bit of a joke in itself too. There's that "matrix of solidity" thing right on the main page. I think it's just that it's not *only* a joke, and the parts that are actually about "using" the site are among the non-joke ones.
21:09:53 <fizzie> In any case, I did figure out where the 'unblock' button is, so if they ask (and say they'll do something more constructive), I'd probably do that (at least once).
21:10:25 <int-e> So the main page *has* a joke in it. It's still not a joke in and of itself.
21:10:52 <imode> a cup can have water in it. a cup is not water.
21:11:01 <int-e> (it's well hidden too, well enough that I almost forgot about it.)
21:16:39 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76178&oldid=76173 * SoundOfScripting * (+26) Undo revision 76171 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- I really ought to make better languages.
21:18:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: since you're working on the wiki including what joke is on the main page, 
21:20:33 <b_jonas> ah, never mind, Thue has been there for less than two years, and it's a language I like more than Funciton or brainfuck as the featured language
21:20:41 <b_jonas> we'll get back to that next year
21:22:05 <fizzie> "SGTM", as we say all the time at work. (Sort of guessed it was going to be about featured languages.)
21:23:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76179&oldid=76177 * Int-e * (+254) 
21:24:03 <int-e> (funny that the edit is now reverted anyway)
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22:03:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76180&oldid=76133 * Caenbe * (+631) 
22:04:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76181&oldid=76180 * Caenbe * (+3) D'oh.
22:12:36 <zzo38> I played Pokemon card game, and opponent told me that my play was "really sneaky" because I didn't knock out one of their cards. I am not so sure to call it "really sneaky", but, either way, it is a legitimate strategy.
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2020-07-24:

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00:45:11 <Cale> Enchant creature. When enchanted creature dies, you may play a replacement creature card from your hand as if it had flash. If you do, return all permanents that were attached to enchanted creature from the graveyard to the battlefield under your control attached to the replacement creature.
00:45:59 <shachaf> That's neat.
00:47:44 <zzo38> That is good, but maybe make enchant permanent, and then you can play another card that shares a type with it. The other consideration is if you do not control or do not own the enchanted permanent, then?
00:50:38 <zzo38> I like the idea though.
00:51:38 <zzo38> Maybe it is supposed to work on opponent's cards and then you control the replacement, though, in which case that is OK.
00:51:44 <shachaf> i,i enchant spell on the stack
00:52:29 <zzo38> "on the stack" is redundant (an object is only a "spell" while it is on the stack), although I had that idea too.
00:53:22 <shachaf> Then you could replace a spell on the stack with another spell -- even a sorcery? -- but it would keep its existing stack position.
00:53:42 <pikhq> Cale: Oh that is _nice_
00:53:58 <pikhq> That makes other enchantments better!
00:54:58 <pikhq> shachaf: enchant spell or ability on the stack >:D
00:55:15 <shachaf> pikhq: I was considering that a bit but it seemed too far even for me.
00:56:02 <Cale> Yeah, it's a card that works for and against auras :)
00:56:30 <zzo38> I had another idea about recovering Auras:  The next time a nontoken Aura dies this turn, you may cast it.
00:57:44 <shachaf> Cale: Oh, whoa, you could enchant an opponent's creature with this.
00:57:47 <shachaf> I didn't think of that.
00:58:23 <pikhq> Oooh
00:58:25 <pikhq> Sneaky
00:58:36 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that too, which is what I was mentioning
00:58:52 <pikhq> To a lesser extent, that also works against equipment
00:59:00 <shachaf> Oh, zzo38 said that too, I missed it.
00:59:03 <pikhq> I mean you can always re-equip, but that can be costly
00:59:32 <Cale> Also stealing opponents' equipment perhaps
01:00:36 <zzo38> Equipment doesn't die when the creature it is attached to dies, so there is no effect on Equipment, I think.
01:01:16 <zzo38> But I think perhaps it should be "enchant permanent" instead of "enchant creature", and require the replacement card to share a type with it.
01:01:31 <zzo38> Also, the card as described would return itself too; is that intentional?
01:01:44 <Cale> ah, right, they wouldn't go to the graveyard, so they couldn't be returned from there
01:01:57 <zzo38> Also, I think it can be useful even if there isn't anything else attached to it, since it grants flash
01:01:59 <Cale> Yeah, I was considering excluding itself as well
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01:04:08 <Cale> But it seemed simpler to describe without that exclusion.
01:17:34 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76182&oldid=76045 * Salpynx * (+37) /* External resources */ link to my code from late 2019
01:18:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Salpynx *  moved [[User:Salpynx/Gdelfish]] to [[Gdelfish]]: 'publishing' this thing
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01:21:56 <esowiki> [[Gdelfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76185&oldid=76183 * Salpynx * (+126) Categories
01:26:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76186&oldid=76159 * Salpynx * (+35) adding my 2 0D Gdel numbering languages
01:33:15 <salpynx> That page I just moved to mainspace has a lot of maths formulas that could benefit from style review. I'm not a mathematician, and I was taking deliberate liberties with some of the notation. If anyone has any tips on improving the notation I'd be happy to learn and improve them.
01:34:55 <salpynx> Hopefully the concept comes across, the language is joke-like, but it's a moderately serious attempt to explore mathematical meta-programming ideas with fully 0-dimesional Godel numbers, and directly convert between input and output encodings
01:35:37 <salpynx> I'd be interested in reading on any related topics if anyone knows of anything
01:50:30 <salpynx> My related 'Brainfoctal' lang is basically a clone of a ridiculous number of similar bf copies, but AFAICT mine is the first and only one that doesn't make a point of being 1 dimensional, unlike Lenguage or Unary. 
01:52:42 <salpynx> 0D is interesting to me because 'symbol' encoding becomes really fluid, there are (potentially) unlimited ways of viewing or processing the 'code'
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02:12:30 <shachaf> This C99 draft is dated Septermber 7, 2007.
02:12:34 <shachaf> I guess that's why it's a draft.
02:17:22 <pikhq> Must be an early one, 2099 isn't for some years yet
02:17:59 <shachaf> and Septermber hasn't even been invented yet!
02:36:45 <esowiki> [[Triple Threat]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76187&oldid=53004 * Qwertyu63 * (+117) 
02:51:12 <Arcorann> I read that as Comiket 99 for a second there
03:02:25 <Cale> shachaf: Morch is coming along nicely though
03:02:39 <shachaf> hi Cale
03:02:42 <Cale> hi
03:03:07 <shachaf> Are you into SAT solvers?
03:03:21 <Cale> I've never really used one
03:03:45 <shachaf> I really oughtta k-now w-ho's w-ho.
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03:43:54 <pikhq> Nor have I really used an SAT solver
04:18:05 <pikhq> I've been oddly avoidant of doing computer-type things lately for a girl who named herself "Ada"
04:18:21 <pikhq> I blame being a professional computer toucher for my day job
04:25:52 <esowiki> [[Nop]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76188&oldid=66020 * D * (+22) 
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04:35:02 <zzo38> How to program random schedules in cron?
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04:40:51 <pikhq> You know, that's an interesting question
04:41:33 <pikhq> I don't think you can do it easily in "standard" cron, but I don't know if it's possible in any reasonably common crons at all
04:41:37 <pikhq> Maybe? Maybe not?
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04:45:59 <sugarpie> Eschew obfuscation
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04:48:47 <salpynx> use cron to regularly schedule a task that generates a random at task , by random offset maybe? 
04:54:24 <salpynx> at now + $RANDOM minutes < commands.txt   but triggered by cron to make it repeating. Never tried this specifically, but 'at' is useful for non-regular scheduling
04:55:36 <salpynx> `? eschew
04:55:37 <HackEso> eschew? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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05:20:16 <pikhq> salpynx: Yeah, I guess so
05:21:17 <zzo38> Also, how to make sounds from a command scheduled with "at"?
05:22:33 <shachaf> Why is that different from other commands?
05:23:08 <zzo38> Because it does not have access to some of the things needed for that purpose, or at least that is what I have found, when I tried.
05:23:34 <zzo38> (Although I may have just made a stupid mistake, perhaps)
05:34:58 <shachaf> What things? How do you normally make sounds?
05:36:05 <zzo38> I normally use aplay
05:37:36 <shachaf> Ah. I don't know, sounds like the sort of thing you'd need to debug if it doesn't work.
05:37:48 <shachaf> Maybe aplay prints errors. Maybe at runs with different permissions?
05:39:26 <salpynx> at execute commands using /bin/sh which can be a pain if using bashism (not sure if that's what is causing your aplay problems, it might be permissions)
05:40:29 <pikhq> depends on your system though; plenty systems have /bin/sh=bash
05:41:58 <zzo38> On my computer, /bin/sh is linked to dash, and not to bash
05:42:16 <pikhq> *nod*
05:44:04 <shachaf> ptrace is such a mess.
05:50:28 <salpynx> aplay works fine with dash for me. I don't have a access to a system that has both at and aplay available simultaneously. Running aplay through at with different perms and looking for error output is a good suggestion
05:51:12 <zzo38> OK
05:53:33 <pikhq> Unfortunately, Linux audio has a lot of moving pieces
05:53:38 <pikhq> Just about anything could be broken
05:57:25 <shachaf> The pulseaudio API is so scow. :-(
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05:59:10 <zzo38> I don't like PulseAudio either, but some programs use it.
06:02:11 <myname> huh
06:02:20 <myname> pulseaudio is awesome
06:03:42 <shachaf> Have you written code using libpulse?
06:03:49 <myname> also, it's possible that aplay just refuses to play something in a noninteractive shell (even though i don't think that's likely)
06:04:09 <myname> no, but it works better than anything else before for me
06:04:25 <imode> just use the alsa compat stuff for pulseaudio and aplay will work fine.
06:05:08 <shachaf> I am, but it doesn't give you access to everything.
06:05:33 <shachaf> For example I can't figure out a way to get an event when I turn on my bluetooth headphones (and the default audio device switches to them).
06:05:46 <shachaf> So right now I poll it every 10 seconds which is p. scow.
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06:06:20 <myname> and alsa has that?
06:06:27 <shachaf> I'm not sure.
06:06:34 <myname> i doubt that
06:06:35 <imode> doubtful.
06:06:38 <shachaf> ALSA is not great either, it certainly has its problems.
06:06:50 <shachaf> But libpulse is way less pleasant and more complicated in unnecessary ways.
06:07:01 <shachaf> Also, ideally I wouldn't either libasound or libpulse, because they're both LGPL-licensed.
06:07:04 <shachaf> use
06:07:12 <myname> also, i really wanted to use orca but i fail to create a virtual midi device
06:07:28 <imode> my question is, on the *BSDs, how does firefox utilize audio?
06:07:38 <imode> you can't even use firefox without pulse.
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06:07:50 <shachaf> Failed to create a virtual MIDI device? As in a synthesizer or something for it to write to?
06:08:41 <myname> to write to it and make it play sounds
06:09:28 <shachaf> I wrote a mini synthesizer and implemented basic MIDI support to use a MIDI keyboard with it.
06:09:36 <myname> but everything i found made me use jack manually
06:09:48 <shachaf> Then I was pretty surprised when I went to a web page while it was running, and the web page outputted MIDI to my synthesizer.
06:10:09 <shachaf> That was pretty surprising! I was trying to figure out what was going on before I realized it was my program.
06:10:38 <zzo38> What if you want to use Firefox with no audio?
06:11:08 <imode> pulse is apparently still required!
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07:09:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76189&oldid=76186 * Salpynx * (+33) /* I */ forgot to add Isthmus Cyclicus Crypticus
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07:46:19 <shachaf> U+01DA   LATIN SMALL ANGRY LETTER U [ǚ]
07:49:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76190&oldid=76181 * Keymaker * (+483) Reply.
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08:44:30 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76191&oldid=76021 * TwilightSparkle * (+44) 
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09:19:51 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76192 * TwilightSparkle * (+1213) Created page with "This page contains attempts on minimizing the number of 1+ instructions, similar to [[BF instruction minimalization]]. We also uses the same restrictions that is, there exists..."
09:20:33 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76193&oldid=76192 * TwilightSparkle * (-16) 
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09:27:17 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76194&oldid=76193 * TwilightSparkle * (+13) 
09:48:43 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76195&oldid=76194 * TwilightSparkle * (+91) 
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09:50:27 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76196&oldid=76195 * TwilightSparkle * (+73) 
09:54:37 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76197&oldid=76196 * TwilightSparkle * (+37) 
10:02:38 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76198&oldid=75853 * TwilightSparkle * (+94) /* Easy */
10:05:28 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76199&oldid=76197 * TwilightSparkle * (+16) Links
10:20:28 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76200&oldid=76199 * TwilightSparkle * (+459) 
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10:47:15 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76201&oldid=76200 * TwilightSparkle * (+308) /* Minimalization */
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11:53:30 <shachaf> If there are UNSAT certificates in practice, is there such a thing as a QBF certificate?
12:22:36 <spruit11> I guess so. Not sure they always exist though. What class is QBF in? Are there already undecidable problems there?
12:23:05 <shachaf> It's PSPACE-complete.
12:23:31 <shachaf> I'm curious whether there's anything in practice. Then again, do people even use QBF in practice?
12:24:02 <shachaf> They can probably settle for something lower in the hierarchy for a lot of things.
12:24:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76202&oldid=75360 * TwilightSparkle * (+102) 
12:24:18 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76203&oldid=76117 * Sinthorion * (-2) improve formatting
12:24:24 <spruit11> Right, so it's closed under complement, I read.
12:25:04 <spruit11> I have no idea whether QBF is used in practice. Might also depend on your definition of 'practice'.
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15:04:18 <kspalaiologos> I've had an awesome idea today about osdev in pure brainfuck
15:04:30 <kspalaiologos> it's totally doable with just `+-[]<>'
15:04:54 <kspalaiologos> my initial idea was, to store an interrupt driver that would watch over tape MMIO regions and issue an interrupt when the conditions are met
15:05:09 <kspalaiologos> now, the question arises, how do I execute x86 machine code using brainfuck
15:05:17 <kspalaiologos> I have came up with a genius idea of hooking the 0x1Ch interrupt
15:05:25 <kspalaiologos> the timer interrupt will call the machine code located on the tape
15:05:45 <kspalaiologos> because that's where I'll set the handler to be
15:06:40 <kspalaiologos> I can hook interrupts just by performing memory read/write
15:07:32 <kspalaiologos> say, tape is located at 0x0000:0x5000
15:07:44 <kspalaiologos> when I boot, I write the driver code to the tape, then rewind back to the start
15:08:06 <kspalaiologos> and then I navigate 5000x left and then adjust to entry `0x1Ch' in the interrupt table
15:08:26 <kspalaiologos> the problem here is that I need to clear the interrupt flag, otherwise bad things may happen, I haven't found out a way of doing so so I guess I'll just have to rely on the fact that nothing breaks
15:21:31 <t20kdc> kspalaiologos: I do have a theoretical idea - require a no-op timer handler to be setup, and then place the real one 0x100 bytes away, so you can inc/dec to control timer interrupt enabledness
15:21:48 <kspalaiologos> I can't require anything
15:21:52 <kspalaiologos> this has to be _pure_ brainfuck
15:22:16 <t20kdc> you have to have an interpreter which enables interrupts, surely
15:23:59 <kspalaiologos> nope, I compile my brainfuck to C
15:24:09 <kspalaiologos> I put the tape on 0x0000:0x0500
15:24:28 <kspalaiologos> `+` => `tape[mp]++;` `-` => `tape[mp]--;` etc...
15:24:30 <HackEso> ​+`? No such file or directory
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16:01:05 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76204&oldid=72347 * Palaiologos * (-7) 
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16:21:08 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76205&oldid=76136 * Caenbe * (+604) /* Computational class */ Added non-TC proof
16:32:46 <esowiki> [[Selmotic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76206&oldid=76164 * Caenbe * (+433) /* Consequences */ Changed this section to Computation class and expanded a bit
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17:40:51 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76207&oldid=76163 * Caenbe * (+211) 
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19:37:37 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76208&oldid=76207 * Caenbe * (-62) 
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20:42:00 <zzo38> I think that Solar Hijri calendar is good if you will use anno mundi (but a new scientific kind of anno mundi, rather than the old kind) instead of Hegira.
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23:01:05 <adu> is there a channel for grammar?
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23:03:09 <zzo38> I don't know, but if you have a question about grammar then I suppose you can ask
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00:44:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:Caenbe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76209 * TwilightSparkle * (+141) Created page with "Are you the Caenbe on ConwayLife.com? ~~~~"
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02:42:49 <esowiki> [[1+/Minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76210&oldid=76201 * TwilightSparkle * (+22) 
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03:02:05 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76211&oldid=76144 * RocketRace * (+272) Begin detailing surreal literals
03:22:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76212&oldid=75813 * TwilightSparkle * (+16575) 
04:16:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Subreal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76213 * TwilightSparkle * (+112) Created page with "RIP JHC. ~~~~"
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06:54:29 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76214&oldid=67190 * Salpynx * (+103) /* External resources */ Arithmetic BCT over HTTP
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09:24:43 <int-e> . o O ( TFW you join an IRC channel to ask a question, and then solve your problem while trying to formulate said question. It acted kind of like a virtual teddy bear. )
09:25:01 <int-e> `"
09:25:03 <HackEso> 1/1:888) <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary? \ 1017) <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes?  <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
09:26:11 <int-e> (Wow, that contraction makes me cringe.)
09:34:07 <spruit11> #sadrobot
09:42:51 <shachaf> What, "it's"?
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10:04:42 <int-e> shachaf: Yes, in that particular context.
10:05:22 <shachaf> Hmm, it reads as pretty standard to me, but I can see what's unusual about it.
10:05:41 <int-e> so none of (it's) funny  is in conflict with  (so none of it) is funny
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10:06:28 <shachaf> (I can't tell whether my attempt at replicating it worked.)
10:06:48 <shachaf> Are those two different parsings? Maybe I don't follow.
10:07:40 <int-e> The "is" referse to all if "so none of it", but in the contraction, "it's", the implied "is" only refers to the "it", to my mind. It's entirely possible that it's me who's wrong there.
10:07:41 <fizzie> int-e: You just need to think like the C preprocessor and expand the contractions before thinking about things like that.
10:08:21 <esowiki> [[Ral]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76215&oldid=71229 * Herman-L * (-346) Update the quine with a shorter one
10:08:42 <int-e> hmm, "referse"
10:08:47 <int-e> > reverse "refers"
10:08:49 <lambdabot>  "srefer"
10:09:07 <shachaf> I think the word "so" is outside of all that.
10:09:43 <shachaf> Speaking of which, precedence climbing/Pratt parser/etc. is a pretty neat trick.
10:09:45 <int-e> shachaf: you're right
10:10:03 <shachaf> Can it be adapted to Agda-style mixfix parsing?
10:10:15 <shachaf> My guess is that the answer is approximately yes.
10:10:43 <shachaf> I think Agda-style mixfix even lets you define parentheses as a mixfix operator, rather than part of the syntax.
10:12:40 <shachaf> I should also figure out how the shunting-yard algorithm works, because people say it's the same trick.
10:13:46 <shachaf> I like how this approach automatically handles prefix, infix, postfix, etc.
10:14:24 <shachaf> The other question is: If you can define precedence within a file, how does that change your parser? Especially if you can define it *after* the use of an operator, as in Haskell.
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10:14:49 <shachaf> Does that just force you to do things the way GHC does, where you fix up the precedence after parsing?
10:16:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: probably. Rust uses a forced many-stage compiler too because it has too many definitions that act backwards in the file.
10:16:24 <shachaf> Nothing related to parsing, though, is there?
10:16:37 <b_jonas> yes there is
10:17:05 <b_jonas> I think you have to parse heads before expressions in function bodies
10:17:17 <b_jonas> even without macros
10:18:06 <shachaf> Heads?
10:18:17 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how the fine points of its grammar work, it's designed really badly with ugly ambiguities
10:19:09 <b_jonas> function heads as in most of the stuff outside the body of the function, so you know the name of the function and whether it is generic etc
10:19:37 <b_jonas> well I dunno
10:19:50 <b_jonas> I'm probably saying something wrong here
10:19:54 <shachaf> Man. I thought they were a bit more creful than that.
10:20:09 <b_jonas> it's not as bad as I imply
10:20:13 <shachaf> I don't know. Rust has all sorts of problems.
10:21:11 <b_jonas> I'm just trying to tell my impression of how it has like a dozen problems that each could independently have been avoided by a bit better syntax
10:21:38 <b_jonas> but no, they always choose the worst syntax and figure they can work it out later
10:21:56 <b_jonas> and it's too late to fix most of them now
10:22:29 <b_jonas> I like rust's semantics, but its syntax is terrible for that
10:23:06 <b_jonas> we should try to make an alternate syntax for it
10:23:43 <shachaf> And alternate semantics, too.
10:24:08 <b_jonas> no, we have that. the alternate semantics is C++
10:24:27 <b_jonas> whose syntax also has some problems of course
10:25:16 <shachaf> No way, I don't want C++ semantics either.
10:25:39 <shachaf> They are trying to do pretty similar things anyway.
10:25:42 <b_jonas> you could even merge the two semantics, with C++ as default but you can mark variables, member variables, and pointers as rust-style owning semantics
10:26:35 <b_jonas> that wouuld lose you rust type-generics though
10:28:03 <b_jonas> it doesn't work well really
10:30:23 <b_jonas> if you make alternate semantics, what makes it still rust-like?
10:30:52 <shachaf> Nothing. It was a joke.
10:32:25 <b_jonas> by alternate syntax I mean one where you make enough compromises that you can not only link it with rust but also directly use rust crates and get the bindings, and backwards, like how rust editions work now. But with much more radical syntax changes.
10:33:31 <shachaf> I also don't like Rust crates.
10:33:54 <shachaf> I installed a few Rust programs and they downloaded zillions of crates and the build directory was quite a bit over 1GB.
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11:48:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but luckily you don't have to use the crate system, or any of those shitty dependency hell packages
11:49:06 <b_jonas> you can use it as just the compiler and programming language, without the build system and religion associated to that
11:49:27 <b_jonas> just a you don't need any of the huge frameworks to write C or C++ programs
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12:25:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76216&oldid=76212 * TwilightSparkle * (+11) /* Bad program */
12:31:25 <int-e> shachaf: tbf the same thing happens in any language that comes with a sanctioned package retrieval/management tool... Haskell+cabal-install (and now stack) suffers similarly.
12:32:32 <b_jonas> and perl, every more
12:32:38 <b_jonas> I think I mentioned that the few times
12:33:14 <b_jonas> CPAN modies that have to install thirty dependencies, ten of which are required only for a documentation coverage test in a dependency module
12:33:26 <int-e> Perl used to be fine there... I guess there's also a general lack of care for bandwidth and space and auditability.
12:35:23 <b_jonas> it's not the bandwidth that bothers me there
12:36:29 <int-e> Time to marvel at https://www.npmjs.com/package/ansi-red again.
12:36:51 <b_jonas> also, I'm shopping for a new keyboard now
12:36:54 <int-e> And its number of weekly downloads.
12:37:10 <b_jonas> I'm typing that so that this keyboard knows that I WILL replace it if he doesn't behave
12:37:42 <int-e> So you think it enjoys being touched all the time?
12:38:23 <b_jonas> dunno
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12:47:38 <Arcorann> Make sure the keyboard doesn't rebel on you --> http://www.scp-wiki.net/grant-request-for-a-replacement-keyboard-because-the-caps-lo
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12:58:19 <b_jonas> he
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13:11:52 <ddt94> Sorry, what do you mean with esoteric???
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15:56:44 <esowiki> [[Serenity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76217&oldid=76020 * Hakerh400 * (+2010) Add few more examples
15:59:27 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76218&oldid=76217 * Hakerh400 * (+0) 
16:01:41 <esowiki> [[Boolshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76219&oldid=76169 * Hakerh400 * (+409) /* I/O */ Update I/O format spec
16:10:17 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76220&oldid=76218 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Instructions */
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00:58:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * TomDufall *  New user account
01:00:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76221&oldid=76128 * TomDufall * (+255) 
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03:10:16 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76222&oldid=76205 * Bangyen * (+99) 
03:11:49 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76223&oldid=76009 * Bangyen * (+18) 
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06:40:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76224&oldid=76054 * Truttle1 * (-339) 
06:40:51 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76225&oldid=76224 * Truttle1 * (-4) /* Subleq */
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07:26:30 <esowiki> [[F-PULSE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76226&oldid=73840 * Rdebath * (-20) Fix from github source
07:30:39 <esowiki> [[F-PULSE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76227&oldid=76226 * Rdebath * (+8) Sigh
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08:41:26 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76228&oldid=76203 * LyricLy * (+104) /* Implementations */
08:41:37 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76229&oldid=76228 * LyricLy * (+6) /* Implementations */
08:41:45 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76230&oldid=76229 * LyricLy * (-1) /* Implementations */
08:41:59 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76231&oldid=76230 * LyricLy * (+8) /* Implementations */
08:42:11 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76232&oldid=76231 * LyricLy * (-2) /* Implementations */
08:42:21 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76233&oldid=76232 * LyricLy * (-6) /* Implementations */
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09:04:27 <shachaf> `"
09:04:29 <HackEso> 1/1:748) <olsner> This quote is boring \ 518) <Sgeo> Can you build the ... why wouldn't you be able to, just and all the computables
09:04:34 <shachaf> `5 w
09:04:37 <HackEso> 1/2:hammurabi//From Hammurabi's law: If anyone creates a webpage that unexpectedly starts playing sounds, he shall be put to death. http://45338297.weebly.com/laws-on-property-and-theft.html \ monoid//A monoid is the easy version of a category. \ fact//Facts are lies. They are not there. Go away! \ ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range
09:04:46 <shachaf> `n
09:04:48 <HackEso> 2/2:. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping. \ mauke//mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
09:15:17 <shachaf> `5
09:15:20 <HackEso> 1/2:469) <monqy> im sampling ultra hip holiday  <monqy> hes the boogie woogie santa clause  <monqy> switching to oktoberfest  <monqy> yes i would love to shop to this \ 485) <Patashu> But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is \ 653) <ais523> is there any evidence that Jesus knew the rules of tic-tac-toe? \ 539) <ais523> elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce?  <elliott> they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can
09:15:23 <shachaf> `n
09:15:24 <HackEso> 2/2:be made to work basically exactly like gnome two \ 125) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
09:20:10 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76234&oldid=76225 * FLeckami21 * (+413) /* Implementations */
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11:54:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76235&oldid=76202 * Osmarks * (+125) 
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13:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76236&oldid=76235 * TwilightSparkle * (+159) 
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14:02:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76237&oldid=76234 * FLeckami21 * (-60) /* Babalang */
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14:15:42 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76238&oldid=75951 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (-3) fixed a mistake
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18:28:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76239&oldid=74903 * Icecream17 * (+22) Amazing
18:46:41 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3767945/tic-tac-toe-with-one-mark-type
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2020-07-27:

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01:59:45 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76240 * Hakerh400 * (+2362) +[[Turinf machine]]
01:59:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76241&oldid=76189 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Turinf machine]]
01:59:53 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76242&oldid=76152 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Turinf machine]]
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02:50:38 <b_jonas> lol today's is a good one https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cantor 
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03:30:38 * pikhq would like to note that we math folk are prone to sudden cases of madness
03:32:17 <shachaf> What should the value for true be? 1 or -1?
03:33:30 <pikhq> Uh, I feel like I need more context for that
03:33:50 <zzo38> I think there are advantages and disadvantages for each way
03:35:07 <shachaf> OK, should booleans be signed or unsigned integers?
03:35:16 <shachaf> Assuming they're thought of as 1-bit integers.
03:35:47 <pikhq> I'd be tempted to say "unsigned"
03:36:05 <pikhq> idk, [-1, 0] feels like a weirder range for a data type than [0, 1]
03:48:29 <salpynx> -1 as true seems wrong. -1 = false 1 = true could be useful, -1 = none or null also works.  If you're asking about 1 bit signed or unsigned, doesn't 1 bit just give you a sign? 
03:50:57 <pikhq> Sure, but if you do it as 2's complement, it does end up making sense
03:51:03 <salpynx> maybe I need to think about this more, but 1 bit signed seems like -0 or +0
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03:53:07 <pikhq> 1 bit signed is: 1 bit is the sign bit, 0 bits are the data, so your max is 0, and your min is ~max - 1 = -1
03:53:32 <pikhq> erm, -max - 1
03:58:45 <salpynx> yes, that makes sense, as 2s complement for signed 1bit numbers. Is it useful though? Maybe, but doesn't seem especially connected to booleans. It's using 1 bit to represent something else
03:59:31 <pikhq> I make no claim that it is in any sense useful. :)
04:00:30 <shachaf> I've heard people say that booleans should be signed and I think it sounded reasonable at one point?
04:00:33 <shachaf> But I'm not sure why.
04:00:58 <pikhq> I bet it's so that all bits will be true if you use more than 1 bit to represent them.
04:01:46 <salpynx> I think I could accept signed booleans as -1 = false 0 = true 
04:02:58 <salpynx> ... which is just inverted  
04:05:22 <salpynx> next time I look at a truth table I'll be wondering whether those are signed or unsigned values...
04:13:45 <shachaf> pikhq: I figured that much, but why is that important? Is that the only thing?
04:13:54 <shachaf> I mean, I shouldn't be asking you, since you didn't make this claim.
04:13:54 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76243&oldid=75669 * Digital Hunter * (+215) /* Quine */
04:14:15 <pikhq> Yeah, I recall hearing it but super vaguely
04:17:53 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76244&oldid=76243 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* |Quines */
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06:30:41 <zzo38> I read about German word "Umwelt", but in English it might be "umbworld", so I look that too in Wiktionary, it is there, and seems to be recent (from 2008, apparently)
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10:34:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76245&oldid=76239 * Ais523 * (-22) Undo revision 76239 by [[Special:Contributions/Icecream17|Icecream17]] ([[User talk:Icecream17|talk]])  rv, I don't think this edit adds anything to the page
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11:11:46 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76246&oldid=75407 * Osmarks * (+4) improvement of some kind
11:18:07 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76247&oldid=76246 * Osmarks * (+90) clarify digit
11:19:00 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76248&oldid=76247 * Osmarks * (+0) fix F# interpreter
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11:30:15 <esowiki> [[Turi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76249&oldid=76248 * Osmarks * (+693)  command,  command
11:30:43 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76250&oldid=76249 * Osmarks * (+1) 
11:37:23 <esowiki> [[Turi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76251&oldid=76250 * Osmarks * (+160) 
11:52:53 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76252&oldid=76211 * RocketRace * (+3468) Begin detailing infinite surreal numeric literals
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11:55:35 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76253&oldid=76252 * RocketRace * (-1) Syntax
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12:17:42 <wib_jonas> shachaf: re https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-07-27.html#lo "What should the value for true be? 1 or -1?" => I talked about that in #esoteric previously, you may find it somewhere in the chat logs. It's complicated.
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12:51:56 <wib_jonas> shachaf: Basically -1 is the better representation more often, because of boolean masking operations, but 1 is sometimes also useful, partly because of intrinsic use like summing a boolean array to get a count, partly because of the x86_64 SETcc instructions inherited from 386 back when branchless code wasn't yet a priority;
12:53:24 <wib_jonas> however, that applies for low-level code, in high level code you probably want to decouple the representation from the symbolic value, so the optimizer decides the representation which can differ for different pieces of code, but when you convert a bool to an int a true value is converted to 1, this is already the case in C and C++.
12:53:57 <wib_jonas> The optimizer or interpreter can also choose different sizes (1 bit, 1 byte, 2 bytes, 4 bytes, 8 bytes etc) for the booleans.
12:54:15 <wib_jonas> Or can temporarily store them in the carry flag, for single boolean tests.
12:55:06 <wib_jonas> pikhq, salpynx: ^
12:55:18 <int-e> I'm pretty sure SETcc exist in order to accomodate boolean values 0/1, not vice versa.
12:55:36 <int-e> i.e., if the C convention had been -1 for true, SETcc would just set all the bits.
12:56:03 <wib_jonas> int-e: because C was already using that, and because on those old CPUs the difference rarely matters, because you don't want to have branchless code.
12:56:21 <wib_jonas> but at the same time fortran and basic was also ran on those cpus and is using different conventions
12:57:27 <wib_jonas> all the new vector instructions use -1 as the representation when they write a true, and check the sign bit to decide if a boolean is true.
12:58:03 <wib_jonas> and of course 1 is useful for indexing arrays.
13:05:56 <int-e> IIRC i386 added a prefetch queue so was the first x86 CPU to suffer from branching code.
13:06:46 <int-e> Sure, writing -1 is more useful for masking tricks.
13:08:40 <int-e> And I believe SETcc is really a historical accident... an instruction clearly in the CISC mindset (something like, make every subexpression a compiler face translatable into one or two instructions) that turned out to be valuable for deeply pipelined architectures that hate (unpredictable) branches.
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13:10:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm not sure, but I think even 286 could technically benefit from branchless code, because it still does prefetching like the 6502 does, so a taken branch costs two extra cycles compared to a non-taken branch, but I might be mixing up cpus here. 
13:11:26 <wib_jonas> but the pipeline just gets deeper and deeper after that, so the later a non-mobile cpu is, the more it benefits from branchless code
13:11:38 <wib_jonas> (there's some non-monotonicity in the low-power mobile cpus)
13:12:50 <wib_jonas> it's just that that 2 cycle penalty for the taken branch is almost always cheaper than executin both branches
13:13:51 <int-e> hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefetch_input_queue suggests this goes back all the way to 8086 and 8088. Hmm.
13:14:12 <wib_jonas> but you're right that a lot of the instruction set are historical instructions, the whole x86 instruction set started out as being able to do anything in a *single* instruction that a z80 instruction can do, as if being a single instruction was somehow an advantage
13:14:20 <int-e> but maybe i386 was the first to use it for more than one instruction in advance?
13:14:35 <wib_jonas> (mind you, one instruction instead of multiple is a pretty good heuristic, barring other complications, but still)
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13:15:00 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, probably, the 386 has a longer penalty for taken branches because it has a decode queue and always decodes as if branches weren't taken
13:15:19 <wib_jonas> or something, I totally forgot all this historical crap because it's irrelevant for anything I program these days
13:15:50 <wib_jonas> I don't claim that I understand current cpus, nobody does, but I try to have heuristics that apply to them
13:15:58 <int-e> I mainly remember because on i386 you could *observe* the prefetch queue length with self-modifying code.
13:16:23 <int-e> (poke less than 16 bytes ahead of the current instruction and the newly written instruction won't be executed this time.
13:16:26 <int-e> )
13:16:45 <int-e> Later processors fixed that, restoring the illusion of sequential writes and reads.
13:17:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, but technically that's true on any modern x86, and it's still screwed by 386 compatibility, as in, every time you do any branch, even a short conditional branch, it has to make sure that self-modifying code is executed correctly (even if slowly), and that slows down the whole architecture even when you don't want to use self-modifying
13:17:11 <wib_jonas> code much
13:17:43 <wib_jonas> int-e: no I don't think so, I think x86 still promises only that self-modifying code executess correctly only if you do a branch instruction between 
13:18:06 <wib_jonas> that's for self-modifying in a single cpu core of course
13:18:27 <wib_jonas> but it's possible that the implementation is like what you say
13:18:27 <int-e> by "later" I mean the next few generations, so basically early Pentiums.
13:18:44 <wib_jonas> pentiums introduce out of order execution, right?
13:19:15 <int-e> I think so.
13:19:44 <wib_jonas> out of order execution with register renaming is such a crazy mad science invention, it's a wonder x86 cpus can do it without way too many stupid bugs
13:20:24 <wib_jonas> if there weren't actual cpus doing it, I'd guess it was theoretically possible but never worth in practice, because you can't implement it correctly and gain performance with it
13:20:42 <int-e> But as prefetch queues grew, they were increasingly likely to break good old-fashioned self-modifying 8086 code, so for a while there was a good reason to invalidate the queue when it overlapped with a store.
13:21:21 <wib_jonas> like, caching memory? sure, the memory is several clock cycles from you, signals can't propagate that fast, so you put a small cache close to the cpu. it's magic, and hard to implement, but it is worht. 
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13:22:11 <wib_jonas> "good old-fashioned self-modifying 8086 code" => is that so common really? x86 has index registers, most code doesn't self-modify so quickly. but maybe I just don't read old code.
13:22:28 <int-e> it was common
13:23:04 <int-e> if only because for example, some of the libraries that shipped with compilers contained self-modifying code. (Borland's BGI had quite a few instances.)
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13:24:35 <int-e> Things like Bresenham line-drawing code that encodes the direction taken by replacing incs with decs as needed, and possibly modifying immediates of some instructions because registers were so scarce.
13:25:18 <int-e> Obviously none of this is sane once you have multiple threads.
13:27:03 <int-e> And it's also pretty firmly in the domain of hand-written assembly code.
13:29:48 <wib_jonas> int-e: self-modifying code sure, but the kind of self-modifying code that doesn't do a jump instruction between? every cpu technically has to support some kind of self-modifying code, so you can load a program.
13:30:01 <wib_jonas> replacing incs with decs as needed? wow
13:30:53 <wib_jonas> I've heard of BASIC code that uses machine code to replace between WRITE and READ for its save/load code...
13:30:59 <wib_jonas> no wait, it's not READ
13:31:06 <wib_jonas> replaces between PUT and GET
13:32:30 <int-e> wib_jonas: The only reason I know a bit about this is that I once wrote code to measure the length of the prefetch queue. It produced interesting numbers on 386, 486, but on Pentium it always resulted in 0. I don't recall whether I ever ran it on a 286.
13:33:08 <wib_jonas> as in, game code printed into a magazine for a particular BASIC computer, probably commodore 64, where the game can be saved or loaded by writing the values of some variables and arrays in a partly unrolled loop.
13:33:22 <int-e> (it worked by poking an inc instruction into a bunch of nops that were about to be executed)
13:34:18 <fizzie> I think modifying operands of memory-referencing instructions is reasonably common in Z80 code.
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13:34:53 <int-e> It happens in MIX code too :P
13:35:21 <int-e> (Unless my memory deceives me very badly. It might.)
13:36:35 <int-e> Isn't there a MIX-in-MIX emulator in TAoCP that relies on copying instructions for most of its work?
13:37:03 <int-e> (Not quite the same, but also an instance of heavily self-modifying code.)
13:43:43 <fizzie> rfk86 has one case that changes the immediates in an upcoming pair of "bit N, a" and "set N, a" instructions, because I don't think there's a variant of those instructions that takes a register operand.
13:44:29 <wib_jonas> int-e: what happens in MIX code? oh yeah, early self-modifying code. sure, it's a 70s computer, it made sense back then, most MIX implementations probably have synchronized memory access and don't even bother prefetching a single instruction
13:45:19 <wib_jonas> in MIX, you effectively have to use self-modifying code to do function returns efficiently. you could avoid them, but it would be slower.
13:46:13 <wib_jonas> MMIX fixes this, it has very strict rules about when self-modifying code is allowed, even on a single thread:
13:47:15 <wib_jonas> there's a single special instruction to remove a memory range from code caches, and you must execute it between writing memory and executing it, no matter how many other things you do in between 
13:47:41 <wib_jonas> so the linker would execute that instruction on all the code loaded before it transfers control to the program
13:49:16 <wib_jonas> and the operating system probably executes that instruction when zeroing a page before mapping it, so that a program can't sneakily get side channel information about data that was mapped to a different process, which sound silly, but MMIX's operating system interface is always like this,
13:49:42 <wib_jonas> .
13:51:38 <wib_jonas> so I guess to zero a page, you first call the pre-write instruction to throw away (roll back) any write-behind data cache, then you zero each word, then you call the pre-execute instruction to make sure the code cache doesn't leak information
13:52:37 <wib_jonas> and this just gets worse if the cpu has three different kinds of branch prediction caches, like x86 has, and you have to make sure neither of them can leak side channel data from your cryptography code
14:04:03 <wib_jonas> Ok I'm scared now. I'm writing code, I'm making a class with several arithmetic operators overloaded on it, it's intended to be used mixed with ordinary integers in a weakly typed language where you don't know in compile time if a variable has an integer or this type, I recognize that this is usually two much magic, 
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14:04:48 <wib_jonas> I already wrote multiple paragraphs of explanation for what the fuck this class does in comments, and I still haven't manged to convince myself that I should abandon this and do the more usual non-magic solution.
14:05:42 <wib_jonas> Either I'll realize that later, halfway into writing this or when maintaining the code, or if not, maybe operator overloading arithmetic operations is sometimes actually useful.
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16:35:09 <zzo38> I did remember reading a MIX-in-MIX emulator in TAoCP that relies on copying instructions for most of its work. (I only borrowed that book, so I do not still have.)
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17:46:34 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76254&oldid=73739 * Palaiologos * (-59) 
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19:21:56 <rain1> https://groupprops.subwiki.org/wiki/Groups_of_order_2%5En check the last 2 entries of this table
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19:44:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have a pair of M:tG rules theory questions. with "Skullbriar, the Walking Grave" plus "Gisa and Geralf", we can now have counters on a card on the stack. is it possible (in non-un magic) to have a counter on a sorcery or instant spell on the stack? if there's a lifelink or deathtouch counter on a card on the stack that isn't a sorcery or instant, is it possible for the keyword that it gives to 
19:44:37 <b_jonas> matter for the rules before it's moved to another zone?
19:45:35 <b_jonas> I'm asking this because of a hypothetical nonexistant card that lets you directly put a counter on a spell.
19:46:27 <zzo38> b_jonas: Rule 122.1b says that keyword counters do count on objects in zones other than the battlefield, but it seems to say that if the object isn't in the battlefield, it has to be a card in order for the keyword counters to work, and that doesn't make much sense to me.
19:46:54 <zzo38> But lifelink and deathtouch would be suitable if the spell deals damage.
19:50:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and I know examples where a counter on a card in the gy or stack matters: a +1/+1 counter for Morbid Bloom, or a flying counter on a Skullbriar that you cast from the graveyard
19:50:50 <int-e> . o O ( enchant target counter )
19:51:39 <zzo38> int-e: Only players and objects can be targeted. (The rules previously allowed zones to be targeted too, but this is no longer the case.)
19:51:56 <b_jonas> (Hidden Spider works differently from the other Hidden enchantments, I know this because Hidden Spider is an actually useful card that I used in my green decks.)
19:52:46 <int-e> zzo38: Did they get rid of the golden rule that the card text wins?
19:53:28 <int-e> It's sill of course, maybe Un-territory.
19:53:29 <zzo38> int-e: No, but it even if the card text says something, it doesn't necessarily mean that the rules support it.
19:53:41 <int-e> *silly
19:53:47 <zzo38> (But, in Un-cards, you can ignore the fact that the rules don't support it.)
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20:02:39 <zzo38> (My own card set I am making with TeXnicard includes a fixed version of rule 122.1b, mentioned in the text of the "Rules" user variable.)
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05:29:57 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76255 * Caenbe * (+733) Created !aBF'
05:30:46 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76256&oldid=76208 * Caenbe * (+28) !aBF'
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06:09:03 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76257&oldid=76255 * Caenbe * (+65) Added code tags to commands
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06:14:07 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76258&oldid=76223 * Bangyen * (-34) /* Implementations */
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07:17:47 <esowiki> [[EXCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76259&oldid=72615 * Bangyen * (+103) 
07:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76260&oldid=76258 * Bangyen * (+12) /* Implementations */
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10:38:38 <esowiki> [[Dupdog]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76261&oldid=37153 * TwilightSparkle * (+240) 
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14:02:16 <esowiki> [[Ni]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76262&oldid=75759 * DeybisMelendez * (+59) Online interpreter added
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15:31:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Elimirks *  New user account
15:34:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76263&oldid=76221 * Elimirks * (+172) /* Introductions */
15:35:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76264&oldid=76241 * Elimirks * (+12) /* B */
15:37:42 <esowiki> [[Blarb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76265 * Elimirks * (+282) Created page with "Blarb is designed to be the simplest possible (esoteric) systems programming language. Being as such, there is only one logical operator: NAND. It is an assembly-like, stack &..."
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15:39:14 <esowiki> [[Blarb]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76266&oldid=76265 * Elimirks * (+754) 
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15:41:34 <esowiki> [[Blarb]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76267&oldid=76266 * Elimirks * (+19) 
15:42:50 <esowiki> [[Blarb]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76268&oldid=76267 * Elimirks * (-19) 
16:39:57 <esowiki> [[!aBF']]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76269&oldid=76257 * Caenbe * (+243) Examples and recategorize
16:40:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76270&oldid=76264 * Caenbe * (+12) Added !aBF'
16:44:52 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76271&oldid=76269 * Caenbe * (+1) Bugged program, I think this works
16:51:58 <esowiki> [[!aBF']]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76272&oldid=76271 * Caenbe * (+170) 
16:53:33 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76273&oldid=76272 * Caenbe * (-2) 
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17:30:21 <b_jonas> `olist 1208
17:30:23 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:13:21 <esowiki> [[!aBF']]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76274&oldid=76273 * Caenbe * (+201) Added implementaion
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18:25:02 <esowiki> [[User:Elimirks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76275 * Elimirks * (+172) Created page with "Author of Blarb https://github.com/elimirks/BlarbVM  Co-author of RustyFungus, a Befunge VM & visualizer written in Rust https://github.com/Mulan-Szechuan-Sauce/RustyFungus"
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18:25:53 <kspalaiologos> the github logger was down for a short while, due to my github username change
18:25:59 <kspalaiologos> forgot to update the git credentials
18:26:07 -!- kspalaiologos has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/.
18:27:19 <b_jonas> heheh
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18:28:31 <kspalaiologos2> what just happened
18:29:03 <kspalaiologos2> my client did something very stupid I presume?
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18:30:27 <int-e> looked okay, you changed the github url for esologs
18:31:03 <int-e> I can hardly believe that the rest of the topic is still the same. It's been that way for two months...
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18:35:46 <kritixilithos> kspalaiologos2: weechat? happens to me too, client at times doesn't continue with the previous nick, so it connects again with a new one while the old one slowly reaches ping timeout
18:36:37 <kspalaiologos2> welp
18:36:41 <kspalaiologos2> no idea what's going on
18:37:11 <int-e> kritixilithos: that's not really a client issue
18:38:20 <kritixilithos> so an irc thing? what's the mechanism?
18:38:33 <int-e> kritixilithos: (It may be, obviously, but more likelt it's a TCP/IP issue really. A connection can look closed from one end and open from the other for various reasons.)
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18:51:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:!aBF']] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76276 * Caenbe * (+214) Created talk page
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20:46:18 <esowiki> [[EXCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76277&oldid=76259 * Bangyen * (+76) 
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23:18:59 <zzo38> Do you think this is good for a survey question file format? I did not write about the answer file format, yet.
23:19:06 <zzo38> Do you think this is good for a survey question file format? I did not write about the answer file format, yet. http://sprunge.us/JCW3L7
23:23:53 <esowiki> [[WII2D]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76278&oldid=73124 * Bangyen * (+0) Resolve command conflict
23:52:22 <esowiki> [[WII2D]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76279&oldid=76278 * Bangyen * (+0) 

2020-07-29:

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01:01:12 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76280&oldid=72354 * RocketRace * (-6782) Move big program to gist
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01:11:16 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76281&oldid=76280 * RocketRace * (+321) Add 99 bottles of beer & truth machine example programs
01:11:59 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76282&oldid=76281 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Truth machine */
01:26:08 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76283&oldid=76253 * RocketRace * (-767) Begin subprocesses
01:26:56 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76284&oldid=76283 * RocketRace * (+3) /* Control flow operations */
01:35:23 <zzo38> Can you use hypnosis to forget a password of a computer?
01:37:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:!aBF']]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76285&oldid=76276 * TwilightSparkle * (+589) /* Categorization */
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02:10:06 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76286&oldid=76284 * RocketRace * (-2355) Document surreal literals
02:10:18 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76287&oldid=76286 * RocketRace * (-1) /* Surreal literals */
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02:15:45 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76288&oldid=76287 * RocketRace * (+129) Mixed set and numeric literals
02:16:10 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76289&oldid=76288 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Surreal literals */
02:17:12 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76290&oldid=76289 * RocketRace * (+34) /* Surreal literals */
02:18:10 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76291&oldid=76290 * RocketRace * (-133) /* Surreal operations */
02:18:33 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76292&oldid=76291 * RocketRace * (+9) /* Surreal operations */
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02:34:26 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76293&oldid=76292 * RocketRace * (+45) Fix section links
02:41:21 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76294&oldid=76293 * RocketRace * (+542) Document regular subprocesses
02:45:35 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76295&oldid=76294 * RocketRace * (+0) Change infinite subprocesses to infinite loops
02:45:51 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76296&oldid=76295 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Surreal operations */
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03:15:08 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76297&oldid=76148 * ZippyMagician * (+2758) Add some stuff
03:21:12 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76298&oldid=76297 * ZippyMagician * (+12) Fix headers
03:22:10 <esowiki> [[WII2D]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76299&oldid=76279 * Bangyen * (+101) 
03:23:51 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76300&oldid=76298 * ZippyMagician * (-3) /* Description */
03:24:32 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76301&oldid=76300 * ZippyMagician * (-3) Fix syntax
03:27:17 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76302&oldid=76301 * ZippyMagician * (+0) Fix compressed version
03:31:00 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76303&oldid=76260 * Bangyen * (+12) /* Implementations */
03:31:49 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76304&oldid=76303 * Bangyen * (+12) /* Implementations */
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03:42:04 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76305&oldid=76005 * ZippyMagician * (+160) Can't believe I didn't notice this until now, fixed
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04:42:59 <zzo38> Computer programs which will ask for permission to know your location or access a camera or microphone or whatever (such as some web browsers, I think), should also add, in addition to "yes" and "no" options, also one more option for specifying your own data instead (which can be useful if you do not have the proper hardware to do that).
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05:45:05 <esowiki> [[BF-PDA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76306&oldid=73032 * Bangyen * (+76) /* External resources */
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07:16:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76307&oldid=76237 * Camto * (-42) Edit link for asm2bf to be to the wiki page.
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08:50:17 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76308&oldid=76240 * Hakerh400 * (-551) 
08:52:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76309&oldid=73384 * Hakerh400 * (+0) 
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09:54:04 <salpynx> I haven't read this yet, but it's interesting and very recent paper from NIST on their Post-Quantum Cryptography algorithm 'competition' https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8309/final might be of interest to people here
09:56:52 <rain1> yes that is interesting
09:57:04 <rain1> I want to understand LLL algorithm better
10:01:40 <int-e> salpynx: what is lacking to make it a full-fledged competition without the quotes?
10:03:17 <shachaf> Man, why doesn't NIST standardize some unkeyed permutation?
10:03:33 <shachaf> Everyone's using AES and it's silly.
10:03:47 <shachaf> I want hardware implementations of a fancy permutation, not AES-NI.
10:04:10 <salpynx> well, they call it 'competition-like' in the abstract. I heard it being referred to as a competition elsewhere and I assumed that was informally. It sounds like it is a serious attempt at deriving future standards 
10:05:30 <rain1> they use competition to find the best cipher
10:08:01 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76310&oldid=76282 * FLeckami21 * (+0) /* Truth machine */
10:08:41 <salpynx> I can't find a mention of prizes. If one or more algorithms win ... we all win?
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10:12:12 <esowiki> [[WII2D]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76311&oldid=76299 * TwilightSparkle * (-2) Befunge was known to be hard to compile, not interpret.
10:18:56 <esowiki> [[User:FLeckami21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76312 * FLeckami21 * (+77) Created page with "Hi everyone,  Here we are language I've created:  (empty, for the moment ...)"
10:18:57 <int-e> . o O ( LLL, the troublesome child of the Euclidean algorithm and the Gram-Schmidt procedure)
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10:23:35 <int-e> rain1: that's a rather broad question though. do you want to implement it, do you want to understand how it works, or do you want to know how to use it? (I have some vague ideas around this, no answers. I might be interested in figuring them out though.)
10:23:58 <rain1>  I don't necessarily need to implement it
10:24:06 <rain1> but im interested in its applications
10:24:16 <rain1> thinkk the book by Cohn might be good
10:27:38 <int-e> I'd probably start by re-watching https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9075-latticehacks because I forgot almost everything.
10:28:08 <int-e> (For some crypto-related applications. It treats LLL as a black box.)
10:29:00 <int-e> It's sad but all I really remember for certain is the terrible pun.
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10:34:32 <salpynx> I was just about to say thanks for the good link... then the pun happened. 
10:34:45 <salpynx> Still, thanks :)
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11:07:36 <int-e> As I recall it (impressions only), the rest of the talk was pretty serious though, but needed study (and probably digging up some references later on) to understand.
11:10:16 <int-e> let's verify. :)
11:18:11 <esowiki> [[User:FLeckami21]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76313&oldid=76312 * FLeckami21 * (-2) 
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12:45:29 <ais523> <b_jonas> […] is it possible (in non-un magic) to have a counter on a sorcery or instant spell on the stack? ← Lightning Storm
12:45:33 <ais523> `card-by-name Lightning Storm
12:45:34 <HackEso> Lightning Storm \ 1RR \ Instant \ Lightning Storm deals X damage to any target, where X is 3 plus the number of charge counters on Lightning Storm. \ Discard a land card: Put two charge counters on Lightning Storm. You may choose a new target for it. Any player may activate this ability but only if Lightning Storm is on the stack. \ CSP-U
13:30:33 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76314 * FLeckami21 * (+845) Created page with "''This page is WIP''  '''Math&Matrix''' is a language based on a matrices list. Each matrix in this list is an instruction based on math properties (determinant, invertibility..."
13:31:04 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76315&oldid=76314 * FLeckami21 * (+6) 
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13:32:23 <esowiki> [[User:FLeckami21]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76316&oldid=76313 * FLeckami21 * (-4) 
14:18:59 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76317&oldid=76302 * ZippyMagician * (+1977) Add new language
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16:31:05 <zzo38> You can have a counter on any object or player. However, I should think that the rules should be fixed so that it says if a pile (or zone, such as the library) is shuffled, the objects should count a new objects even though it is in the same zone (similar to rule 400.8, 400.9, and 400.10).
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16:32:09 <zzo38> (Presumably, the number of a kind of counter on an object or player is a one-shot property, although each kind of counter on an object or player also has a timestamp.)
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16:53:27 <esowiki> [[D]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76318&oldid=72944 * UltimateProGrammer * (+839) Add code examples
16:54:15 <esowiki> [[D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76319&oldid=76318 * UltimateProGrammer * (-9) Removed {{stub}} as there is more info now
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17:14:36 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76320&oldid=76317 * ZippyMagician * (-8) Update
17:18:26 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76321&oldid=76320 * ZippyMagician * (-132) Update syntax
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22:56:41 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76322&oldid=76321 * ZippyMagician * (-2) Fix syntax
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23:25:31 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76323&oldid=76147 * ZippyMagician * (+141) Add some of my favorite programming languages
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23:36:46 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76324&oldid=76322 * ZippyMagician * (+150) Update syntax and add division program

2020-07-30:

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00:56:34 <esowiki> [[Subreal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76325&oldid=76296 * RocketRace * (+490) Repeating decimals, rational numbers, and alternate bases
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01:14:09 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76326&oldid=76325 * RocketRace * (+114) Better literal examples
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03:01:55 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76327&oldid=76304 * Bangyen * (+13) /* Implementations */
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08:15:18 <cpressey> Hi, good morning
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08:15:58 <rain1> hi!
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08:55:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:FLeckami21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76328 * TwilightSparkle * (+220) Created page with "== Hi ==  Just thought I'd let you know, there is someone who is going to use Math&Matrix after its completion (me). ~~~~"
09:29:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:FLeckami21]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76329&oldid=76328 * FLeckami21 * (+128) /* Hi */
09:31:39 <cpressey> A little while ago I came across "fusible numbers" which I had never heard of before.  https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.14342
09:32:57 <cpressey> I have not read the paper yet but the definition sounds like it's the sort of thing that people here find interesting
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09:58:13 <kritixilithos> the paper references rautenberg's concise introduction to logic, anybody recommend it for someone at an undergrad level?
10:19:37 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76330&oldid=76315 * FLeckami21 * (+311) /* Instructions */
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11:28:01 <int-e> hrm, the abstract is missing a base case, what is it... 1?
11:28:39 <int-e> oh.
11:29:06 <int-e> It's not, my bad. I "computed" (0+0+1)/2 = 0.
12:10:31 <Arcorann_> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23989215
12:10:36 <Arcorann_> More GPT-3 stuff
12:14:15 <int-e> I don't get it.
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12:22:59 <Arcorann_> Are you referring to my link?
12:28:02 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling depressed because GPT-3 gets all the attention? 
12:28:02 <fungot> fizzie: there is no if block because you can simulate all this, the reference implementation? where is it
12:38:20 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76331&oldid=76330 * FLeckami21 * (+537) /* Instructions */
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12:58:16 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76332&oldid=76331 * FLeckami21 * (+159) /* Instructions */
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14:17:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * AlvinBalvin321 *  New user account
14:21:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76333&oldid=76263 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+211) /* Introductions */
14:23:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76334&oldid=76333 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+101) /* Introductions */
14:26:49 <esowiki> [[User:AlvinBalvin321]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76335 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+66) Created page with "hello  [https://www.youtube.com/alvinbalvin321 My youtube channel]"
14:28:38 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76336&oldid=76324 * ZippyMagician * (-2216) Update
14:41:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76337&oldid=61321 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+102) 
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16:12:06 <esowiki> [[Unleash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76338 * Hakerh400 * (+5316) +[[Unleash]]
16:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76339&oldid=76270 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Unleash]]
16:12:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76340&oldid=76242 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Unleash]]
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18:03:18 <int-e> `"
18:03:20 <HackEso> 1/1:1249) <fungot> boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language. \ 1131) <boily> zzo38: AAAAAAAAAAH! sudden illumination. “mind switch.” I now understand.
18:05:57 <zzo38> Have you heard of any pinball games that will go on tilt if the flipper is held up for too long?
18:06:34 <rain1> ive never heard of that
18:07:10 <zzo38> Someone mentioned it to me once, but I have never seen it.
18:08:21 <zzo38> (Usually it only goes on tilt for excessive nudging, or if you try to lift one side of the table to adjust the slope. Many computer pinball games don't go on tilt though; it is less important since the amount of nudging is controlled by the computer and excessive nudging can't damage it.)
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18:10:19 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76341&oldid=76220 * Hakerh400 * (+4) /* Instructions */
18:17:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * 447xpro *  New user account
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18:33:45 <kspalaiologos> I'm a bit lost with asm2bf, any ideas on what features should I get rolling?
18:33:52 <kspalaiologos> I thought about setting up some basic trig instructions
18:34:04 <kspalaiologos> I also thought about extending bfvm and writing proper documentation (lol)
18:35:51 <zzo38> I suggest writing proper documentation; too many programs they have these days don't have any
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18:59:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76342&oldid=76334 * 447xpro * (+324) /* Introductions */
19:00:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76343&oldid=76342 * 447xpro * (-5) 
19:00:14 <esowiki> [[Pyramid Scheme]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76344 * 447xpro * (+2711) Created page
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19:01:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76345&oldid=76339 * 447xpro * (+21) /* P */
19:04:00 <esowiki> [[Pyramid Scheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76346&oldid=76344 * 447xpro * (+139) added psll compiler link
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20:22:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:BASICER]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76347&oldid=46733 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+133) 
20:22:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:AlvinBalvin321]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76348 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+4) Created page with "talk"
20:22:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:AlvinBalvin321]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76349&oldid=76348 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+12) /* ? */ new section
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21:45:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Kettle3D *  New user account
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22:22:42 <esowiki> [[+-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76350&oldid=71388 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+1780) 
22:29:45 <esowiki> [[+-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76351&oldid=76350 * AlvinBalvin321 * (-45) 
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2020-07-31:

00:12:54 <zzo38> Now I think the icon fonts is working. (I used the suggestion mentioned here to make the icon fonts to be vector fonts; the raster data will be recorded when the icon font is loaded.)
00:13:44 <zzo38> (For pure monochrome icons, normal fonts probably will work better, I think.)
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00:17:59 <zzo38> Does ais523 know how to make icon of card game they were designing (if any icons should be needed)?
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01:16:35 <zzo38> I have a idea of a Magic: the Gathering card which can have "protection from cards".
01:19:21 <zzo38> (or, which grants protection from cards to enchanted permanent, maybe)
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01:58:19 <shachaf> If every year you get returns of r on your money and then save 1 money, then after n years you have f^n(0), where f(x) = rx + 1. This is (r^n - 1)/(r - 1)
01:58:31 <shachaf> Is there a nice way to see why the ratio of "returns after n years - 1" to "returns after one year - 1" is this value?
02:07:36 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEWgwRrY9s
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02:09:09 <Cale> I find it easier to think about in terms of the fact that 1/(1-r) = 1 + r + r^2 + ...
02:09:45 <shachaf> Yes, you can phrase it as (1 - r^n)/(1 - r)
02:10:10 <Cale> Yeah, or (1/(1-r)) - r^n * (1/(1-r))
02:10:21 <shachaf> Right.
02:10:34 <Cale> But yeah, I'm not sure about the ratio thing
02:10:36 <shachaf> Another thing you can do when r is an integer is to say that 1+r+r^2+...+r^n is the number "111...111" in base r
02:11:16 <shachaf> 111...111 = 999...999/9 = (10^n - 1)/(10 - 1)
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02:12:10 <shachaf> (Maybe n is off by 1 here.)
02:12:26 <int-e> there's the telescoping trick
02:13:05 <int-e> (10-1)*11111 = 111110-11111 = 100000-1.
02:13:39 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76352&oldid=76336 * ZippyMagician * (+2292) Re-add
02:14:40 <int-e> or, properly written: sum_{0 <= i < n} x^i = 1/(x-1) sum_{0 <= 0 < n} x^(i+1) - x^i =[telescoping happens here]= (x^n - 1)/(x-1)
02:16:26 <shachaf> What is telescoping?
02:16:55 <shachaf> I'm still curious about the "ratio of return-1s". What should I be expecting that kind of thing to mean?
02:18:14 <shachaf> Cale: No kids and three money sounds pretty good.
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02:19:36 <int-e> shachaf: telescoping is when one half of a term in a series cancels with the other half of the next term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_series
02:20:10 <shachaf> Oh, it's an actual term to look up, I didn't realize.
02:20:17 <int-e> here x^(k+1) (for i = k) and -x^(k+1) (for i = k+1)
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08:51:11 <fizzie> Come to think of it, why is it called "telling someone about the birds and the bees" in English? The equivalent Finnish idiom refers to "the flowers and the bees", which makes a lot more sense; pollination and all that.
08:56:00 <Taneb> There's a Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_birds_and_the_bees with some discussion on the origin
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08:57:05 <fizzie> Right, I guess it's birds and bees as two separate things.
08:57:47 <int-e> . o O ( Whoever named that Mars rover "Perseverence" has never heard of jinxing it. )
08:57:54 <fizzie> "Irreversible binomial" sounded like a math thing, but turned out to be a language thing.
08:59:54 <shachaf> kissat seems like a pretty good SAT solver.
09:00:01 <shachaf> It won a bunch of the 2020 competition.
09:00:04 <shachaf> And it has the best name?
09:00:10 <shachaf> It's difficult to compete.
09:01:55 <fizzie> fi:kissat = en:cats, but I have a feeling that wasn't intentional.
09:04:32 <shachaf> https://github.com/arminbiere/kissat says it's a coincidence.
09:04:35 <shachaf> But I doubt that.
09:04:46 <shachaf> That was the reason I said it has the best name.
09:05:19 <int-e> well, if you do your due diligence and google the name you'll figure that out
09:06:05 <int-e> If you duckduckgo you may find https://www.ilves-kissat.fi/ ... Google does not seem to deem it nearly as relevant :P
09:06:52 <int-e> Ah, so that's Armin Biere's newest SAT solver.
09:10:32 <int-e> . o O ( It's too bad that "clause" is singular and "claws" is plural. Otherwise there would be many puns. )
09:10:40 <shachaf> Yes, it's the new CaDiCaL
09:12:20 <int-e> "Kissat is a "keep it simple and clean bare metal SAT solver" written in C. [...] Coincidentally "kissat" also means "cats" in Finnish."
09:12:59 <cpressey> You'll think I'm mad as a hatter when I tell you that every SAT solver must have three different names
09:14:05 <int-e> This isn't the Lord of the Rings.
09:14:18 <shachaf> No, it's old possum's book.
09:14:55 <int-e> cpressey: Also, tbf, a reimplementation in a different language (even if it's moving from C++ to C) can justify a new name.
09:16:05 <shachaf> Book of practical kissat?
09:17:03 <shachaf> CaDiCaL takes 80 CPU seconds to compile here, and kissat takes 13.
09:17:25 <shachaf> (That's 9.3s and 1.6s with -j12.)
09:17:43 <int-e> that's a pretty good speedup
09:18:08 <shachaf> That's what you get for using C++, I think.
09:18:12 <int-e> unless the CPU time is all in spinlocks :P
09:18:47 <shachaf> Why would cc use any spinlocks?
09:25:10 <int-e> Here it starts hypertreading after -j6 and -j12 is only ~10% faster than -j6.
09:25:26 <int-e> (for kissat)
09:26:30 <shachaf> Oh, that's fair, I guess.
09:27:47 <int-e> (the missing `h` was intentional, in case you're wondering)
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09:49:14 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/b.txt -- how does going beyond -j12 reduce sys time?
09:49:37 <int-e> (for cadical)
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10:03:11 <shachaf> Mysterious.
10:05:14 <int-e> anyway, ymmv (and I'm still pretty happy with the performance of this computer... it's almost 4 years old now, wow)
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10:11:11 <shachaf> I wonder how much total CPU time it would use if it was all in one translation unit.
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10:23:57 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76353&oldid=76332 * FLeckami21 * (+700) 
10:28:57 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76354&oldid=76353 * FLeckami21 * (+9) /* Matrix form */
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11:53:30 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76355&oldid=76354 * TwilightSparkle * (-13) There are presets about common phrases here.
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13:29:03 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/users/7234/bill-gosper woah cool
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14:07:03 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
14:07:03 <lambdabot> EGLL 311350Z AUTO 15016KT 9999 NCD 37/11 Q1009 NOSIG
14:07:10 <fizzie> That's just ridiculous.
14:08:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Maxi *  New user account
14:18:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76356&oldid=76343 * Maxi * (+151) /* Introductions */
14:33:11 <int-e> @metar lowi
14:33:11 <lambdabot> LOWI 311420Z 06009KT 030V090 9999 FEW070 FEW075TCU 33/15 Q1016 NOSIG
14:33:27 <int-e> that's too warm already if you ask me
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16:35:47 <zzo38> I invented my own kind of cryptographic randomized padding, where each frame consists of: the length of worthless data, the worthless data, the sequence number, the checksum of all data so far in this frame and all previous frames, the length of the payload data, and then the payload data.
16:36:03 <zzo38> (Splitting the data into frames can be done arbitrarily.)
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16:45:22 <esowiki> [[BFBASIC]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76357&oldid=37601 * Maxi * (-22) Removed link to Wayback machine, since the page is available.
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17:09:44 <zzo38> How to request more testers?
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17:33:51 <esowiki> [[Unleash]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76358&oldid=76338 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Instruction % */
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19:55:06 <aaaaaa> Hi all. Is there a channel for demomaking?
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20:03:11 <esowiki> [[BFBASIC]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76359&oldid=76357 * Maxi * (+136) 
20:09:15 <b_jonas> probably. those retro guys are weirdos like us, some of them probably hang out on IRC somewhere. but I don't know the details sadly.
20:20:49 <b_jonas> you could ask alis
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20:31:43 <fizzie> IRCnet, and to some degree EFnet, has(/had) a certain amount of association with the demoscene.
20:32:24 <fizzie> Less sure about specific channels though. pouët says http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=8192&page=1 (but that's from back in 2011 (but that's not *so* old))
20:32:36 <b_jonas> ah yeah, that would make more sense, they're on the old style networks rather than freenode or oftc
20:32:50 <b_jonas> that's the kind of nonsense why I still have to connect to ircnet
20:33:48 <fizzie> I think a few of my more demoscene-oriented friends frequented #coders, if I remember right.
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21:00:55 <b_jonas> also my tooth hurts. it's not bad, it only stops me from eating on the left site. such a problem happens often enough I dread the day when I'll have a problem with teeth in both sides of my jaws and I won't be able to eat at all.
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21:47:51 <spruit11> b_jonas: I've been showcasing some of your programs you wrote in another channels. Thanks again.
21:48:06 <spruit11> I also finally got around to analyzing them. Neat tricks!
21:48:23 <b_jonas> spruit11: can you be specific? thanks
21:48:41 <b_jonas> I wrote programs in other channels? do you mean like #jsoftware? 
21:48:41 <spruit11> The two quines and the mandelbrot renderer.
21:48:49 <b_jonas> ah, that's not a channel but ok
21:49:09 <spruit11> Nono. I've been showcasing your programs, into other channels.
21:49:22 <b_jonas> ah, *into* other channels. I see.
21:49:27 <spruit11> You're now known as the 'genius from #esoteric'.
21:49:45 <spruit11> Didn't know if you would appreciate a direct reference.
21:50:34 <b_jonas> ok, now I'm not sure which two quines. I wrote more than two quines, both in J (which is what the mandelbrot renderer is written in, unless there's another one I totally forgot about) and in perl
21:50:41 <b_jonas> I think I only wrote exactly two quines in C though
21:50:48 <b_jonas> and exactly two in SQLite for that matter
21:51:04 <spruit11> Egel! I am the guy who ran egelbot here for a while.
21:51:15 <b_jonas> oh, the egel quines and egel mandelbrot renderer
21:51:15 <b_jonas> I see
21:51:26 <b_jonas> yes, I know you wrote egel, but I forgot about those things
21:51:35 <b_jonas> I write quines in a lot of things
21:51:59 <spruit11> I finally got the trick myself. Neat.
21:52:06 <b_jonas> which trick?
21:52:19 <b_jonas> the trick of writing quines in general, or the trick of writing that sort of quine that I'm writing?
21:52:42 <spruit11> The trick to the quines you wrote. Don't know if there are more techniques.
21:55:06 <zzo38> There are some ways to write quines and polyglots depending on the programming language.
21:55:11 <b_jonas> other #esoteric regulars might be able to tell about that
21:55:14 <b_jonas> yeah, what he says
21:57:55 <zzo38> Writing polyglot programs can also be useful for various purposes sometimes.
21:59:51 <b_jonas> especially public header files for libraries where the header is a C/C++ polyglot. C++ was designed to make that possible usually. 
22:00:21 <zzo38> Yes, you can use #ifdef for that, and I have seen that it is common
22:00:29 <b_jonas> you usually don't even need ifdefs
22:00:41 <b_jonas> just avoid a few things that break the combination
22:00:54 <b_jonas> the ifdefs come in when you want it to work with the MS compiler too
22:00:59 <zzo38> Yes, the programming language is similar enough that sometimes it works without.
22:01:42 <b_jonas> especially if it's not very old C or very old C++
22:05:05 <spruit11> I just hope my usual gibberish comes across to C++. I really have no idea what I am doing exactly in that language.
22:05:16 <spruit11> Seems to work out, somehow.
22:05:34 <b_jonas> spruit11: but... isn't the egel implementation written in C++ already?
22:08:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: you have read https://perlmonks.com/?node_id=591502 right? it's my favorite polyglot, written by a friend
22:08:51 <spruit11> Sure. No idea what I am doing.
22:08:56 <spruit11> But works.
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22:09:09 <b_jonas> yeah, everyone starts like that
22:41:27 <zzo38> To make a polyglot with PostScript and with a shell script that executes the PostScript program, you might add the first line like:  (exec gs -dNODISPLAY -dNOSAFER -q -- "$0" "$@"; ')pop%('); exit #   (you can also define a different output than -dNODISPLAY, or you can handle selecting the output device in the PostScript code instead, using setpagedevice)
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