00:00:51 <b_jonas> (that one is probably still a DOS platform)
00:02:04 <fizzie> A "DOS extender" is the standard term for DOS4GW and it's ilk, for better or worse.
00:02:50 <b_jonas> is there really an "its ilk"? I mean, are there ones like it that aren't just versions of DOS4GW?
00:03:55 <fizzie> CWSDPMI from DJGPP, maybe most popularly.
00:04:05 <b_jonas> I know there are DOS reimplementations, like freedos, the stuff in some windows NT versions, and the DOS in OS-2
00:04:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks, I'm not too familiar with DOS programming
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00:05:04 <fizzie> Oh, and PMODE/W, for Watcom.
00:06:06 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe actually the DOS-based windows platforms (Windows 3, Windows 95, Windows 95 OSR2, Windows 98) should count as "its ilk", when they're running a native program
00:10:44 <b_jonas> are all of those 32-bit DOS extenders, or are some of them 16-bit protected mode ones like Win16?
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00:20:31 <fizzie> All of those were for the 32-bit protected mode on a 386, I think. But I think 16-bit DPMI servers existed too.
00:36:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: is Windows 3.0 or windows 3.1 one of them?
00:36:45 <b_jonas> I don't know how DPMI works
00:41:45 <fizzie> TBH, I don't remember the details all that well, although I did know it moderately well at some point. Yes, I think Windows 3.x implements both 16- and 32-bit DPMI for DOS programs.
00:42:21 <b_jonas> only windows 3.1 I think, windows 3.0 doesn't
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01:04:56 <zzo38> Is there a 64-bit DPMI (or "DLMI")?
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02:10:55 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76073&oldid=68662 * YamTokTpaFa * (-2) /* Links */ Wait no NOT C++ but just C.
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02:36:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stormboy876 * New user account
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04:12:42 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76074&oldid=76053 * Caenbe * (+104) Clarification
04:21:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Past]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76075&oldid=71405 * Caenbe * (+401) Time travel doesn't matter?
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05:02:45 <imode> interesting patterns pop up where you least expect them. a better formulation for RAM in string rewrite rules, when utilizing the address:value pair approach, would be to always move the last-read value to the head of the list of pairs. you'd end up with more recently used addresses accessed far quicker which.. behaves suspiciously like a cache.
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06:58:25 <zzo38> Possibly in future once TeXnicard is made up more, some people may wish to set up SSH to access TeXnicard on the internet, so that it can be used from Windows as well as Linux. (If doing so, one thing that might be useful to provide there would be a program for users to manage groups, in order to control who has access to the card database.)
07:00:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76076&oldid=76072 * Duckologist * (+94) Fix typo and add "~~~~"
07:08:48 <zzo38> (The software is nevertheless designed to be usable locally, and does not use a internet connection, but to be able to import/export change sets so that you still can make collaboration with others using internet, or by copying the files to an external disk or CompactFlash or whatever)
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07:24:52 <rain1> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1285333002252247040.html this was cool
07:29:04 <Arcorann> That's certainly a paranoid way of looking at it
07:39:16 <rain1> A pretty interesting concept though!
07:39:39 <rain1> it is unfortunate how opaque these modern AI things are
07:39:58 <rain1> since they're just self organized and automatically trained soups of weights
07:59:46 <int-e> Perhaps the main mistake here is that we tend to train a single AI for a task. So it'll make consistently flawed decisions at massive scale. This doesn't happen when you delegate similar tasks to people (who are far from perfect) because individuals can't be scaled up, so you are forced to allow some diversity in the decision making process.
08:00:35 <int-e> I don't know, just a thought on top of the usual idea that AIs should be able to justify their decisions in some human comrpehensible form.
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08:18:10 <Taneb> Hmm, Girl Genius didn't update yesterday
08:19:35 <int-e> I was wondering how Krosp will cope with the ensuing poisoning.
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08:35:16 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76077&oldid=75477 * Osmarks * (+205) more betterness, less worseness
08:49:39 <rain1> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a8dd/2ef009df7601cdbc90332765a56a24c7821c.pdf
08:49:49 <rain1> interesting result, ww is not context free but wm where m =/= w is
08:50:33 <int-e> seen it before, it's a fun exercise
08:51:09 <int-e> I thought it was folklore though.
08:53:10 <int-e> more to the point, I thought that was the canonical example for showing that CFGs are not closed under complement.
08:53:37 <myname> i have to think about why ww is not context free, that's a shame, i should know that
08:53:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76078 * Osmarks * (+3524) Created page with "<div style='font-size: 0px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 1px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 2px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size: 3px'>~~~~</div><div style='font-size:..."
08:54:14 <myname> irc rubberducking as good as ever
08:55:30 <myname> how old is this paper?
08:55:38 <int-e> Ah... it's one of those things where pumping is not quite enough, so you need something a bit stronger like Ogden's lemma.
08:56:47 <int-e> myname: well it cites 2012 stuff
08:56:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76079&oldid=76078 * Osmarks * (+3525)
09:03:04 <int-e> https://dblp.uni-trier.de/pers/hd/t/Tomaszewski:Zach is the same person
09:03:13 <int-e> not exactly the formal languages expert :P
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09:10:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76080&oldid=76079 * Osmarks * (+3618)
09:10:51 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76081&oldid=76070 * Duckologist * (+288) Better example and information for 5 and 2 command, and added how variables can be printed (also fixed typos)
09:10:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76082&oldid=76080 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:12:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76083&oldid=76082 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:13:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76084&oldid=76083 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:14:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76085&oldid=76084 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:15:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76086&oldid=76085 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:16:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76087&oldid=76086 * Osmarks * (+3617)
09:19:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76088&oldid=76087 * Osmarks * (+4208)
09:22:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76089&oldid=76088 * Osmarks * (+3836)
09:25:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76090&oldid=76089 * Osmarks * (+3866)
09:27:26 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76091&oldid=75834 * RocketRace * (+38) Clear up syntax
09:29:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76092&oldid=76090 * Osmarks * (+4845)
09:29:06 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76093&oldid=76091 * RocketRace * (+43) /* Syntax */
09:32:39 <shachaf> Wow, what a user talk page.
09:32:40 <int-e> ...those user talk page edits...
09:33:27 <myname> wait, you can insert html there?
09:35:08 <int-e> I don't think it's arbitrary CSS.
09:35:46 <int-e> HTML. Mind wandering: allowing custom CSS is why this is allowed for <div> elements, I think.
09:41:19 <Arcorann> Surely that's breaking some sort of rule about talk pages
09:41:24 <int-e> myname: So basically I think this is working as designed... but CSS is crazy.
09:41:56 <myname> css3 and html5 together are tc iirc
09:42:28 <int-e> "HTML5" is a huge bag of crap.
09:43:13 <myname> what i basically know about html5 is video/audio and also elements like dialog that look weirdly foreign to me
09:43:39 <int-e> Because it's not referring just to a plain markup language; it includes DOM and a lot of other Javascript crap.
09:44:03 <int-e> Or that's how I understand it.
09:44:17 <myname> i recently re-learned about the navigator object
09:44:30 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#New_APIs
09:44:39 <myname> the whole object is basically hardcoded legacy api
09:45:11 <myname> (and of course i stumbled over it while looking at code i kinda have to work with)
09:45:50 <myname> web storage is awesome!
09:46:59 <myname> what annoys me the most are all those websites that ask for permission to send notification for no reason
09:49:20 <int-e> you know that the primary use of those technologies will be better tracking
09:49:33 <fizzie> A lot of them do the notification thing on the initial page load, before you've even seen any of the content, that's the stupidest part.
09:49:43 <myname> well, maybe, but i wouldn't want to go back to the web of the 90s
09:50:38 <int-e> What was that odd notification service where the browser calls home to ask for new messages and the website gets an (identifiable) external link to send those messages to?
09:50:43 <int-e> It's all pretty terrible.
09:51:45 <int-e> Somebody should make a proper glossary for such terms. "richer browsing experience" = targeted ads.
09:52:24 <int-e> (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdata_(HTML) )
09:52:46 <int-e> "more relevant results" = targeted ads
09:53:33 <int-e> It's really too bad that Google (with Chrome as a driver) is so powerful in the W3C.
09:54:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76094&oldid=76057 * Heavpoot * (+1372)
09:55:22 <myname> there is really good stuff
09:55:46 <myname> i even am kinda okay with that whole "oh no, our adblockers will not work anymore" api change
10:01:39 <int-e> I suppose they can do whatever they want with their browser. I'd feel better about it if nobody used it though :P
10:03:01 <myname> i still can't my wrap around how they manage to destroy their mobile browser
10:03:40 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76095&oldid=75345 * Heavpoot * (+1686)
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10:05:52 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76096&oldid=76077 * Osmarks * (+132)
10:06:16 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76097&oldid=76095 * Heavpoot * (+12254)
10:06:26 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76098&oldid=76096 * Osmarks * (-1)
10:06:52 <int-e> btw, while I'm being paranoid: who's behind gravatar and what are they doing with all their tracking data?
10:07:19 <int-e> Also, am I to assume that Heavpoot and Osmarks are the same person?
10:11:07 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76099&oldid=76097 * Heavpoot * (+36205)
10:19:37 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76100&oldid=76098 * Osmarks * (+267)
10:22:54 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76101&oldid=76099 * Heavpoot * (-49539) Replaced content with "[[User:Heavpoot]] is a humanoid entity which exists, and is corporeal, much like most members of this community. ==Languages made== * Various undocumented esolangs which w..."
10:27:50 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76102 * Osmarks * (+4) Created page with "TODO"
10:28:02 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76103&oldid=76100 * Osmarks * (+72)
10:28:38 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76104&oldid=76102 * Osmarks * (+102)
10:29:20 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76105&oldid=76101 * Heavpoot * (+536)
10:31:14 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76106&oldid=76103 * Osmarks * (+124)
10:34:18 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76107&oldid=76105 * Heavpoot * (+134)
10:37:40 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76108&oldid=76028 * Heavpoot * (-63) fixed typos
10:38:15 <myname> i still don't get why google made duet mode useless
10:40:35 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76109&oldid=76108 * Int-e * (+63) Undo revision 76108 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) -- revert vandalism
10:40:56 * int-e sighs dramatically.
10:50:01 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76110&oldid=76093 * RocketRace * (+300) Add IO pipes
10:53:29 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76111&oldid=76110 * RocketRace * (-23) /* I/O */
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10:55:10 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76112&oldid=76111 * RocketRace * (+18) /* I/O */
10:56:34 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76113&oldid=76112 * RocketRace * (+4) /* I/O */
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10:57:42 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76114&oldid=76113 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Examples */
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10:58:45 <esowiki> [[Esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76115&oldid=76114 * RocketRace * (+20) /* Examples */
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11:19:00 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76116&oldid=74420 * Dion * (+61)
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11:24:01 <arseniiv> @let { data CoNat = Z | S CoNat | Inf; prec' Z = Nothing; prec' (S n) = Just n; prec' Inf = Just Inf; succ' Nothing = Z; succ' (Just Inf) = Inf; succ' (Just n) = S n; } -- explicit encoding of conaturals is useful sometimes, and in this formulation prec' and succ' are mutual inverses, though this succ' may be less useful than its summands
11:24:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
11:25:20 <arseniiv> this is when you treat `data Nat = Z | S Nat` as a codata
11:25:44 <arseniiv> they are, primarily, a coalgebra, but they admit successor anyway
11:26:13 <myname> i don't get how that's different from naturals, maybe besides inf
11:26:19 <arseniiv> I’m bad at expaining this, yeah
11:27:21 <arseniiv> Inf and its properties are a natural (oh, pun) consequence of this codata-coalgebra vs. algebra thing
11:27:44 <arseniiv> ah, they aren’t just a coalgebra, they are a final coalgebra, like Nat is an initial algebra
11:27:58 <arseniiv> yes, that should make this a bit clearer
11:28:28 <arseniiv> (that is, in mathematical terms, X ↦ 1 + X)
11:29:27 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76117&oldid=76056 * DanielCristofani * (+108) /* Examples */
11:29:34 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76118&oldid=75958 * D * (+34)
11:32:10 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76119&oldid=76104 * Osmarks * (+1362)
11:32:21 <arseniiv> an initial algebra means there is an unique morphism from it to any other algebra on the same functor, and now I tried to write its signature and mixed up something
11:35:31 <arseniiv> that should be { foldNat :: Nat → (Maybe a → a) → a; foldNat Z f = f Nothing; foldNat (S n) f = f (Just $ foldNat n f) } if I’m not mistaken
11:36:18 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76120&oldid=76118 * D * (+1) /* Instruction list */
11:36:40 <arseniiv> and succ' :: Maybe Nat → Nat is a Nat algebra itself
11:41:20 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76121&oldid=76120 * D * (+52) /* Primalty Tester */
11:41:54 <arseniiv> now, CoNat is a final coalgebra which means there is a unique morphism to it from any Maybe-coalgebra, which means
11:41:54 <arseniiv> { unfoldCoNat :: a → (a → Maybe a) → CoNat; unfoldCoNat x f = case f x of { Nothing → Z; Just y → S $ unfoldCoNat y f } }
11:41:54 <arseniiv> but this definition doesn’t work properly with an explicit encoding, as it should somehow detect infinite recursion and return Inf in that case. If we take plain Nat and treat it as codata, that would work fine, because Inf is encoded as `inf = S inf` there
11:43:40 <arseniiv> but we also of course have that Nat is a coalgebra (there is precNat :: Nat → Maybe Nat) and CoNat is an algebra (succ' above), just not the final/initial ones
11:45:03 <arseniiv> I used an explicit encoding of CoNat in a non-haskell implemetation of “run the machine an amount of steps, or to the end, and tell if it was aborted or halted naturally”
11:46:31 <arseniiv> in a lazy language of course an implicit “Nat is codata” encoding suffices just right before one wants to know if they specified an infinite amount of steps or not, in finite time
11:48:10 <arseniiv> “run the machine an amount of steps, or to the end, and tell if it was aborted or halted naturally” → and the latter just uses prec' to decide if there are any available steps to continue. CoNat values themselves are black boxes
12:04:22 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76122&oldid=76119 * Osmarks * (+51)
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14:58:02 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76123&oldid=76081 * Duckologist * (+265) Add interpreters section and another example
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16:30:29 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76124&oldid=76035 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Object */ fix typo
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17:15:55 <zzo38> I dreamt that Knuth wrote a Pokemon fan story. At one point, someone had to switch a robot from big-endian to small-endian.
17:17:17 <zzo38> Also, at one point, someone was trying to catch a pokemon, but a second guy had tricked him and was actually following him (using some sort of quantum link) and caught the pokemon instead. But when the second guy tried to open the ball, the pokemon always disliked the second guy and went with the first guy, but refused to enter the first guy's ball and always went in the second guy's ball.
17:25:08 <zzo38> (I would think that such a thing would be inconvenient for everyone involved.)
17:31:09 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76125&oldid=76116 * Dion * (+21)
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20:37:34 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76126&oldid=70822 * Void * (+447) /* Distinguishing features */
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20:43:21 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76127&oldid=76126 * Void * (-1) /* Computational class */
21:00:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eiim * New user account
21:03:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76128&oldid=76094 * Eiim * (+217) Introduced self
21:20:30 <ski> the generic convergent sequence is not discrete
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