2020-06-01:

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00:20:14 <int-e> `? password
00:20:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is Mayfly.
00:20:48 <int-e> . o O ( `learn The password of the month is Feast for Trouts. )
00:21:14 <shachaf> ais523 or others: Would it ever make sense to do two null window searches, one for alpha and one for beta?
00:25:30 <int-e> window searches, eh...
00:25:43 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is peeping Tom.
00:25:46 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is peeping Tom.
00:25:47 <int-e> :-P
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00:29:57 <shachaf> It's still May here in freedomland.
00:31:38 <int-e> I thought we agreed on UTC at some point.
00:31:57 <int-e> `` date -u
00:31:58 <HackEso> Mon Jun  1 00:31:57 UTC 2020
00:32:41 <int-e> Also the whole idea behind "Mayfly" was to kill it quickly ;)
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03:55:49 <zzo38> The check accent (character 20) in cmr10 (at 300 DPI) is not displayed correctly in TeXnicard.
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08:45:58 <esowiki> [[`]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73131&oldid=71217 * Voltage2007 * (+197) 
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12:09:00 <esowiki> [[`]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73132&oldid=73131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* = Cat */
13:23:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Wsdt *  New user account
13:25:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73133&oldid=73044 * Wsdt * (+112) /* Introductions */
13:31:35 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73134 * Wsdt * (+647) Created page with "'''Almost Binary''' Almost Binary is a new esoteric, hybrid programming language written in C#. The project was originally created by Kevin Riedl.  The overall target of this..."
13:32:05 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73135&oldid=73134 * Wsdt * (-13) 
13:32:14 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73136&oldid=73135 * Wsdt * (+1) 
13:32:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73137&oldid=73133 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) three unsigned!
13:32:48 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73138&oldid=73136 * Wsdt * (+34) 
13:33:02 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73139&oldid=73138 * Wsdt * (-66) 
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13:33:34 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73140&oldid=73139 * Wsdt * (+10) 
13:34:35 <esowiki> [[Stop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73141&oldid=68176 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) 
13:34:45 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73142&oldid=73140 * Wsdt * (+558) 
13:35:06 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73143&oldid=73142 * Wsdt * (+11) 
13:37:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73144&oldid=73101 * Wsdt * (+20) /* Non-alphabetic */
13:37:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73145&oldid=73144 * Wsdt * (+20) /* A */
13:37:57 <esowiki> [[Stop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73146&oldid=73141 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+332) 
13:38:24 <esowiki> [[Glutton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73147&oldid=72664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) eso styles ns visible
13:38:38 <esowiki> [[Glutton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73148&oldid=73147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
13:40:24 <int-e> Hmm, curious. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73146&oldid=73141 adds a core of an interpreter in Python and the "Unimplemented" category.
13:41:25 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73149&oldid=73143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) 
13:44:05 <int-e> Mmm, this month's Ponder This is cute but less flashy than the previous ones.
13:47:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73150&oldid=73145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) /* Non-alphabetic */ rm alphabetic lang
13:54:36 <esowiki> [[GUI4BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73151&oldid=73020 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+86) 
13:56:52 <esowiki> [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73152&oldid=62157 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-65) /* sorry */ this is not language, rm lang cats
13:58:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73153&oldid=73009 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) /* Miscellaneous */ + Implementations
13:58:53 <esowiki> [[Funciton/Brainfuckiton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73154&oldid=34810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) cat
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14:44:55 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to calculate n-th digit of pi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73155 * Hakerh400 * (+5696) How to calculate n-th digit of pi
14:44:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73156&oldid=72840 * Hakerh400 * (+89) How to calculate n-th digit of pi
14:47:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to calculate n-th digit of pi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73157&oldid=73155 * Hakerh400 * (+4) /* Optimizations */
15:26:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73158 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2592) Created page with "'''Text Display Language''' is a basic language created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Its primary use is making GUIs.  ==Textbox and Textline== Textbox is input. Textlin..."
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15:34:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73160&oldid=73159 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) 
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16:38:39 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73162&oldid=73100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Languages */ ..
16:42:58 <esowiki> [[ZeroBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73163&oldid=9942 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
16:44:52 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73164&oldid=72395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) /* Turing-completeness proof */
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17:21:10 <b_jonas> how are you #esoteric
17:33:36 <zzo38> I use the IRC client to access the #esoteric IRC.
17:34:07 <rain1> im trying sage math to plot complex functions
17:50:05 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '[3,4] =.. L, display(L).' # ais523: yes, we have a prolog in HackEso with which you can demonstrate things
17:50:11 <HackEso> ​['[|]',3,[4]]
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18:28:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73165&oldid=73160 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-220) 
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19:02:38 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73166&oldid=73103 * Emerald * (-1) /* = GIO/Golf In One */
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21:59:37 <b_jonas> `? password
21:59:38 <HackEso> The password of the month is peeping Tom.
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23:39:00 <esowiki> [[Q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73167&oldid=46489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
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2020-06-02:

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04:56:09 <Sgeo> "One way to think about dependent types is to think of them as “first class” objects in the language, in that they can be assigned to variables, passed around and returned from functions, just like any other construct. But, if they’re truly first class, we should be able to pattern match on them too! Idris 2 allows us to do this. For example"
04:56:24 <Sgeo> I thought pattern matching on types was antithetical to the concept of Idris?
05:12:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Jcs *  New user account
05:17:03 <zzo38> Maybe it is antithetical to Idris but not Idris 2. But, I don't know enough of Idris to really know that, anyways
05:19:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73168&oldid=73137 * Jcs * (+151) 
05:21:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73169&oldid=73168 * Jcs * (-151) 
05:42:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73170 * JonoCode9374 * (+525) Created page with "==Tips For Making a Golfing Language==  A while ago, there was a thread over on the Code Golf StackExchange (CGCC) about things to consider when making a golfing language: htt..."
06:22:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * NikolayResh *  New user account
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06:47:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73171&oldid=73169 * NikolayResh * (+231) /* Introductions */
06:50:15 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73172&oldid=72159 * NikolayResh * (+106) /* Normal implementations */
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07:29:48 <shachaf> Sgeo: Do they actually lose parametricity?
07:30:00 <shachaf> I doubt it. I think it's something a bit more subtle than that.
07:32:00 <Sgeo> A function that wants to match on a type has to note that it's accepting a type in its type signature
07:32:17 <Sgeo> https://idris2.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial/multiplicities.html
07:32:22 <Sgeo> "Note that multiplicities on the binders, and the ability to pattern match on non-erased types mean that the following two types are distinct
07:32:22 <Sgeo> "
07:32:30 <Sgeo> id : a -> a
07:32:31 <Sgeo> notId : {a : Type} -> a -> a
07:37:28 <b_jonas> so that's like when you have an Any class in Haskell, but you can match types on it because the Any class has a method that lets you macth the types, and the class constraint is passed explicitly?
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08:42:32 <shachaf> Isn't that thing just the way they write forall?
08:42:47 <shachaf> Hmm...
08:43:04 <shachaf> That's suspicious.
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12:17:27 <int-e> . o O ( I don't want dependent types. I want dependable types. )
12:46:37 <wib_jonas> `? seal
12:46:39 <HackEso> seal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:54:54 <wib_jonas> "seal" is an abbreviation for "sea lion".
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13:38:47 <esowiki> [[Cubix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73173&oldid=52635 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Links */ category languages
13:42:33 <esowiki> [[Glypho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73174&oldid=53687 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */
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14:16:08 <esowiki> [[Dogescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73175&oldid=53778 * DmilkaSTD * (+14) 
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14:50:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73176&oldid=68710 * DmilkaSTD * (+110) 
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15:11:54 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73177&oldid=73074 * DmilkaSTD * (-2474) Replaced content with "{{WIP}} ::Got an amazing idea for Brainfuck"
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15:23:46 <cpressey> https://mathoverflow.net/a/361870 seems fairly esoteric.
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16:49:30 <rain1> I knew it!
16:49:33 <rain1> I knew rices theorem was false
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17:05:50 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73178&oldid=73177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 
17:06:40 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze/mice.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73179&oldid=58067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Comments */
17:07:23 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73180&oldid=72083 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Turing-completeness proof */
17:07:39 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73181&oldid=73098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Raise an error (takes 3 inputs first) */
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18:29:19 <b_jonas> fungot, is it logically possible that there exist worlds that are carried by five or more elephants, rather than just the usual four, and how would you resolve the apparent contradiction with the Bible?
18:29:20 <fungot> b_jonas: that's what we get after doing your initial decoding step. but first i need to use another version; i'm advising you to use disorient me!
18:31:20 <b_jonas> yes, I can understand if that radical hypothesis disorients you.
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18:58:07 <zzo38> Maybe I will need to add the possibility of "sections" with their own margins, within a text area, where in some cases other stuff may be aligned and printed within the margins.
18:58:55 <zzo38> For example, it may be applicable to Sagas and planeswalkers in Magic: the Gathering.
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19:06:10 <int-e> rain1: only if you're imprecise
19:09:13 <int-e> That link is interesting though, I had not heard of Friedberg's theorem.
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20:13:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73182&oldid=73178 * DmilkaSTD * (+90) 
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20:39:01 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73183&oldid=73182 * DmilkaSTD * (+1058) 
20:47:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * DmilkaSTD *  uploaded "[[File:BfAsmMemoryManagementGraph.png]]"
20:50:38 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73185&oldid=73183 * DmilkaSTD * (+78) 
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21:12:31 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73186&oldid=73185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* Memory management */ catas
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21:15:48 <esowiki> [[Plugh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73187&oldid=67009 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) 
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2020-06-03:

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00:29:56 <tswett[m]> You know what we need more of? Antiprogramming languages.
00:30:32 <tswett[m]> With many programming languages, the natural state is that nothing happens, and you have to write code that causes the desired things to happen.
00:31:17 <shachaf> i,i substractive program synthesis
00:31:34 <tswett[m]> I define an "antiprogramming language" as a language in which the natural state is that anything could happen, and the sole purpose of the code is to prevent undesired things from happening.
00:34:15 <tswett[m]> fungot, does all that make sense to you?
00:34:15 <fungot> tswett[m]: how soon before gambit has had one.
00:42:08 <zzo38> Well, with C programming (at least with gcc), if you do not write any program then the linker won't work because there is no "main" function to start from.
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00:48:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like the gcc linker?
00:48:39 <shachaf> Should I write my own linker?
00:50:05 <zzo38> Write your own linker if you need to, I suppose.
00:50:32 <zzo38> The gcc linker seems to work for me; I haven't done much other stuff with it than just compiling C programs though
00:52:41 <zzo38> Can you make a global variable of zero length to indicate something that the linker can use to decide something? If so, does the GNU linker support that use?
00:54:21 <shachaf> Making a symbol to indicate something is a standard trick, I think.
00:55:11 <zzo38> Yes, I have seen that, although I have not seen them being of zero length.
00:56:08 <shachaf> I see. I'm not sure how you'd do that in C, but I assume linkers support it fine.
00:56:10 <zzo38> (GNU C accepts zero length structures and zero length arrays; the latter is normally only used as the last item in a structure, although I can think of some other uses too, some of which have to do with macros.)
00:58:34 <shachaf> Indeed with GNU extensions you can write "int thing[0];" to make an zero-length symbol.
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02:45:12 <Cale> tswett[m]: "First, please don't delete my home directory. Actually, if you could just not delete files for now, that would be a great start."
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04:36:38 <zzo38> Do you have some comments of the custom Magic: the Gathering set that I was making up?
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05:31:32 <Cale> I don't think I saw it, but my commentary would be fairly uninformed -- I only watch some M:tG players from time to time, haven't actually gotten into playing it myself.
05:31:57 <zzo38> O, OK.
05:32:03 <Cale> Link?
05:32:26 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/
05:32:51 <zzo38> There is a HTML export of the card set there; you can also download the TeXnicard file.
05:36:29 <zzo38> (Not all cards are custom; some are reprints. However, I intend to add more custom cards too. Also, the rarities and other stuff may be changed, too.)
05:36:36 <Cale> Kjugobe's Trick wow, haha
05:37:16 <Cale> High skill ceiling card
05:46:01 <zzo38> Yes, that card can be used for a few things
05:46:07 <Cale> What kinds of player counters are in the set?
05:46:53 <zzo38> So far, I don't think there are any counters on players in this set, but I may add some later. Also, it can be used together with another set, potentially.
05:47:25 <Cale> Ah, I was looking at Kjugobe's Pet
05:47:33 <zzo38> Yes, I was guessing that.
05:49:49 <Cale> I wonder if there's a way to make profitable use of the sacrifice mechanic on Goblins of the Flarg.
05:50:17 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that too, maybe a card can be added to take advantage of that. (That card is a rather old card.)
05:54:22 <Cale> Against non-red opponents, it'll just be a 1/1 for 1, which would be outclassed by a lot of other 1-mana creatures these days, but it depends on what's legal to play of course.
05:55:06 <Cale> But yeah, if there was a sweet combo :D
05:55:42 <shachaf> Cale: Hale
05:55:53 <Cale> hellochaf
05:55:56 <shachaf> Have you played any of these "deck building roguelike" games that people are into nowadays?
05:56:18 <Cale> I've played Slay the Spire
05:56:28 <Cale> Though it was back when there were only two clases
05:56:30 <Cale> classes*
05:56:33 <shachaf> I played a lot of that.
05:56:59 <shachaf> The two newest classes are fun.
05:58:46 <zzo38> I have not heard of such "deck building roguelike" game, but now I did.
05:59:21 <Cale> I've played a lot of roguelike roguelike games, especially Caves of Qud
06:01:03 <Cale> I have a screenshot from StS here https://cale.l5.ca/share/Slay%20the%20Spire%20-%204496.png
06:01:36 <Cale> (I'm holding a hand representing 4496 damage)
06:02:08 <shachaf> Barricade + Entrench?
06:02:30 <Cale> I forget what else was in my deck
06:02:36 <Cale> Barricade sounds right
06:02:39 <shachaf> I mean, you had the block doubling card.
06:02:44 <shachaf> I can see barricade in the power list.
06:02:57 <Cale> ah, yeah
06:02:57 <shachaf> Too bad that still doesn't -- wait, you haven't gotten the game's final boss, I guess, because that was only added with the third character?
06:03:09 <Cale> Yeah, this was a final boss at the time
06:03:36 <shachaf> Yes. There's a top secret fourth act now.
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10:45:12 <int-e> shachaf: https://gist.github.com/int-e/8e606cd6e3eeb2d8b4296cbb21d6515f is the von Neumann neighborhood experiment I did last month, in case you're interested.
10:46:23 <shachaf> That's a lot of code.
10:46:26 <int-e> hmm, those links aren't right, should be anchors
10:48:08 <shachaf> What was the reason for using assembly and not intrinsics?
10:48:38 <int-e> shachaf: mainly one less level of indirection
10:49:01 <int-e> (I'd have to map the instructions to the intrinsics)
10:50:07 <shachaf> Hm.
10:50:24 <int-e> Also I had already written the x86-64 version, so I was already in manual register scheduling mode anyway.
10:51:34 <int-e> And yes, it's a lot of code... but it felt like a good level of complexity for a reality check (compilers vs. manually written assembly code)
10:52:23 <int-e> And honestly I was surprised to save almost 20%, I expected less.
10:53:33 <int-e> The version I actually used in the challenge was the generic one.
10:56:06 <int-e> Anyway I think the main thing that kills the SSE2 code is the awkwardness of doing 128 bit shifts.
11:00:49 <shachaf> What's the awkwardness?
11:00:56 <int-e> I guess AVX would enable higher throughput, but that interacts awkwardly with cycle-finding.
11:01:11 <shachaf> Oh, is it shifting between lanes or something?
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11:02:33 <int-e> The awkwardness is that the full register moves, vpsrldq and so on, work in 8bit multiples. This compares infavorably to the x86_64 code which has shld and shrd...
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11:05:03 <shachaf> Oh, that's surprising.
11:05:05 <int-e> So basically >> 10 becomes *3* shift instructions and a bitwise or, instead of a shld and another shl. And the code is shifting a lot.
11:05:53 <int-e> uhm, "full register moves" was "full register shifts" in my brain
11:06:07 <int-e> (I guess moving is a kind of shifting?)
11:07:52 <shachaf> It's been a long time since I wrote SIMD code.
11:08:28 <int-e> Yeah this is a bad example for that anyway.
11:09:09 <int-e> I mainly did it because while I expected it to be slower than the x86_64 version, I wasn't entirely sure (and it is quite a close call anyway).
11:09:53 <shachaf> I guess a full register shift is a pretty unusual SIMD operation.
11:10:02 <int-e> (Obviously this is just my best effort... I may have missed some optimization opportunity.)
11:10:23 <int-e> Yeah, the "M" doesn't really apply here.
11:11:43 <int-e> The most satisfying idea here was the use of a sorting network.
11:13:04 <int-e> (The alternative would've been a combination of two half-adders (to combine pairs of inputs) and two full adders)
11:14:19 <shachaf> I like sorting networks.
11:14:33 <shachaf> Perhaps sorting networks are this.
11:16:22 <int-e> In any case, it was a fun experiment.
11:17:16 <int-e> And I managed to be cited twice in http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/solutions/May2020.html :)
11:19:41 <int-e> shachaf: Anyway, I would expect the code to be the same speed or maybe a cycle slower with intrinsics.
11:20:06 <shachaf> Sure, I'm not suggesting it would make for faster code than writing assembly yourself.
11:20:38 <int-e> (the compiler's register allocation still kind of sucks... they get away with this because the CPUs make register-register moves mostly free)
11:20:57 <shachaf> POn
11:20:58 <shachaf> DER
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11:21:13 <int-e> shachaf: right
11:21:33 <shachaf> Are register allocators just doomed to be pretty good but not that good?
11:21:37 <int-e> (there's no good way of making a capital n at 3 pixel width)
11:22:03 <int-e> shachaf: Good question, I don't know, because compilers and CPUs are co-evolving.
11:22:04 <shachaf> If you're willing to give your optimizer more time, can it just solve the register allocation problem optimally, or is that intractable?
11:22:41 <shachaf> Of course there's also that.
11:23:17 <shachaf> I would be happy to give my compiler more time in super-optimized mode (and I want it to be much faster in regular mode).
11:24:12 <shachaf> Also, can you reuse these things between runs? For example a CDCL solver can probably remember its best learned clauses for the next run (and check whether whether they're still valid), maybe you can reuse that work in something like this?
11:24:28 <int-e> Which is actually an argument in favor of better register allocation in compilers... because we are increasingly focussing on energy efficiency and all that register renaming machinery isn't working for free.
11:24:28 <shachaf> Of course you could do regular incremental building too but maybe something deeper would be worthwhile, I don't know.
11:25:19 <int-e> reusing optimizations, sure, that's "just" a software engineering problem.
11:25:53 <shachaf> Well, I mean reusing learned clauses between *different* instances that are similar.
11:26:17 <shachaf> If you spend a lot of time running the optimizer on one function and then make a small change, maybe you can get an optimal solution quickly.
11:26:21 <int-e> There are superoptimizers, and I expect that reusing previous optimized code is pretty important there.
11:26:32 <shachaf> Though now that I write it out it seems a little implausible that it would work that well.
11:26:56 <int-e> But meh. I'm speculating instead of researching.
11:27:05 <shachaf> What are you researching?
11:27:43 <int-e> I mean this concrete question. Superoptimizers *exist*, surely people have written about them and how they're used as well.
11:28:20 <int-e> (Though somehow, the only context in which I've actually seen them is the Ethereum VM... :-/)
11:28:58 <int-e> I bet GPU vendors also have their own superoptimizers... which they run whenever a new game is released, distributing the results with a driver update.
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11:30:21 <int-e> `? device
11:30:24 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
11:30:31 <int-e> Still ^ annoys me every single time.
11:30:47 <myname> huh?
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11:30:58 <int-e> myname: 'Subject: [GitHub] Please verify your device'
11:31:10 <int-e> No, it's the same PC every single time.
11:31:17 <myname> ah
11:31:48 <int-e> (Well, maybe a couple of them.)
11:36:27 <int-e> Ah I can't spell "comparator".
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11:50:07 <shachaf> i,i Gentlemen, it's a nuclear [browser session].
11:59:09 <int-e> shachaf: That's all well and good, but have you verified it?
11:59:25 <int-e> We just can't let devices go unverified.
12:00:17 <shachaf> int-e: GPU drivers special-casing shaders of specific games compiled with superoptimizers? What a dismal perspective.
12:01:02 <int-e> shachaf: I think it's the reality.
12:01:21 <shachaf> Sounds plausible.
12:01:37 <int-e> (No proof. But what else would they do in those driver updates that speed up newly released games, and why else would those drivers be so ridiculously big?)
12:02:17 <int-e> And super-optimizers are just more plausible than *people* working on manually optimizing those shaders all day.
12:05:04 <int-e> Actually I can't even say that it's *bad*.
12:06:03 <int-e> nVidia or AMD spending a couple of days of server farm time for the benefit of all the players of a game sounds like a pretty good deal.
12:07:51 <int-e> So all I can potentially complain about is wasted bandwidth...
12:17:17 <int-e> What is a 0' (or O') oracle in computability theory?
12:18:38 <int-e> I tried Google and it gave me loads of 
12:18:54 <int-e> Ignore that.
12:19:19 <int-e> I tried Google but forgot my Google 101, namely adding the field of interest as a keyword.
12:19:50 <int-e> The answer is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_jump#Examples
12:22:05 <int-e> Without the field of interest it gave me loads of database related hits, I wonder why ;-)
12:23:50 <int-e> Duckduckgo tried to be smart and turned out to be useless. Query: 0' oracle computability --> Answer: Did you mean 0' oracle compatibility?  plus a lot of hits for that...
12:24:15 <int-e> (putting "computability" in quotes helped, but it didn't even suggest that!)
12:26:38 <shachaf> int-e: For the benefit of players of AAA games, anyway. I'd rather have nVidia and AMD give developers the tools to make their programs fast themselves.
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12:40:59 <int-e> Yeah there's that.
12:49:43 <int-e> It's kind of unavoidable... in the gamer market segment, framerates in AAA titles is the main competetive factor.
12:51:09 <int-e> So whether it's GPU vendors lending expertise to the game developers, or optimizing shaders post release... something like that is bound to happen. And they may consider their internal tools not polished enough or too trade-secreted to be shared more widely.
12:52:04 <shachaf> Well, Intel doesn't send you CPU driver updates that recompile the code for popular programs to be faster.
12:52:13 <shachaf> I mean, uh, I mean, I sure *hope* they don't do that.
12:52:35 <int-e> Who's Intel again. (From a GPU market perspective, I mean)
12:53:21 <shachaf> I mean for CPU programs, not GPU.
12:53:24 <int-e> And only half kidding anyway.
12:53:37 <int-e> Ah.
12:55:08 <int-e> Intel isn't in the right position for that I suppose. It would be funny if VMs (e.g. Javascript ones) would be doing that for commonly distributed scripts.
12:55:18 <int-e> (/programs)
12:55:56 <FireFly> Kind of surprised they aren't, tbh
12:56:00 <int-e> But one key difference here is that the machine code isn't a trade secret.
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12:56:14 <FireFly> (well, browsers, and targetting key popular libraries)
12:56:27 <int-e> FireFly: same here, actually
12:57:16 <int-e> And who knows, maybe it's done and I just don't know.
12:57:23 * FireFly nods
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12:57:38 <shachaf> Well, it would be nice if GPU machine code wasn't a trade secret.
12:57:49 <int-e> OTOH maybe there are just too many versions of each Javascript library for this to be attractive.
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13:34:27 <esowiki> [[Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73188&oldid=73110 * Yoel * (+0) /* External resources */
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14:45:29 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73189&oldid=73186 * DmilkaSTD * (-36) I dont think this is a brainfuck derivative
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15:03:50 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73190&oldid=73189 * DmilkaSTD * (+534) 
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15:07:55 <cpressey> I noticed the "2020" category looked empty so I refreshed it.  There are already 149 pages in it.  There were 200 in all of 2019.
15:09:46 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73191&oldid=73190 * DmilkaSTD * (+40) Comments in the code
15:11:17 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73192&oldid=73191 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) invisible change
15:15:23 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73193&oldid=73120 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) 
15:18:04 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73194&oldid=73192 * DmilkaSTD * (+204) 
15:26:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73195&oldid=73194 * DmilkaSTD * (+113) uhm, useful.
15:27:27 <esowiki> [[Asvi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73196&oldid=72239 * DmilkaSTD * (+114) 
15:27:55 <wib_jonas> cpressey: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=create shows page creations, in case you want to know who created the most pages
15:29:03 <cpressey> What's our stance on languages that claim to be Turing-complete (i.e. they've been put in the "Turing complete" category, they have "Computational class: Turing complete" in their infobox) without even including a proof sketch?
15:29:23 <cpressey> I mean, it's not obvious to me that https://esolangs.org/wiki/(1)_Grace_sent_you_a_message is TC
15:29:28 <cpressey> It's plausible, but not obvious
15:30:23 <wib_jonas> cpressey: sometimes the Turing-completness is obvious. if it's not obvious and the page says nothing about it, not even a reference to some external doc, then I think we can remove the category and modify the text.
15:33:20 <wib_jonas> cpressey: https://esolangs.org/wiki/(1)_Grace_sent_you_a_message is turing-complete because you can translate 1.1 to it by doing one replacement step of the 1.1 program in a brainfuck program, set the resource limit such that that brainfuck program never overflows, and just make the two brainfuck programs in the Grace program identical
15:33:49 <wib_jonas> The problem is that it might be uncomputable
15:34:19 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure if it is
15:35:25 <wib_jonas> Heck, it's definitely more than TC. It computes recursively enumerable languages I think.
15:36:03 <wib_jonas> We should probably categorize it [[Category:Nondeterministic]] [[Category:Uncomputable]]
15:37:05 <wib_jonas> And my draft proof above is wrong, because Grace is defined such that the iteration of the brainfuck programs leads to an output that must match the input
15:40:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73197&oldid=72830 * Chris Pressey * (+307) 
15:44:40 <cpressey> I can see how it could be TC if you use one of the LBA's to compute a single step of a TM and then iterate -- in fact I don't see why you'd need two LBAs, just iterating one should work.
15:48:41 <wib_jonas> cpressey: you need two TMs because the iterated process has to generate all possible inputs of Grace, so it has to be nondeterministic in some way
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15:49:36 <wib_jonas> cpressey: the run of a Grace program always starts from an empty state, then modifies it iteratively by nondet transforming it to some possible output
15:50:00 <wib_jonas> then the program becomes accepting if the state can reach the input of the Grace program
15:50:43 <wib_jonas> this sadly makes IO for Grace ugly, because it can't support just any input format, you need to put some marker to distinguish inputs from strings you use as intermediate states
15:51:31 <wib_jonas> but if you use an input convention where, say, all inputs to Grace must start with a 1, and the intermediate states start with a 0, then you can compute any recursively enumerable set with a Grace program 
15:51:35 <cpressey> tbh I don't see how you get any of that from the article
15:52:04 <wib_jonas> which part?
15:53:32 <wib_jonas> the paragraph above the last one tells how the program transforms a string, starting from the empty string, with brainfuck black boxes, by feeding the string as an input to bf and replacing it with the output
15:54:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73198&oldid=73165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) 
15:54:26 <cpressey> "the iterated process has to generate all possible inputs of Grace, so it has to be nondeterministic" -- no it doesn't?
15:54:28 <wib_jonas> then the last paragraph describes the IO convention of Grace, that is, that the Grace input must match the last state, and that this is nondeterministic in the sense that the Grace machine accepts an input string if there's any accepting path to it
15:54:39 <cpressey> You can deterministically generate all possible inputs?
15:54:56 <wib_jonas> cpressey: hmm ok, that's true, you could do that too
15:55:10 <wib_jonas> because there's no special mark for which state is final
15:55:41 <cpressey> anyway if Hakerh400 is as bored as their user log makes them look hopefully they'll be happy to explain why they claim it's TC
15:57:35 <wib_jonas> cpressey: still, for Turing-completeness, all you'd need is to pick one fixed non-empty string as a conventional input, and then compile your program to brainfuck iterations such that it outputs that special string if your program halts
15:57:56 <wib_jonas> then the Grace program will accept the special string iff your original program halts
15:58:18 <wib_jonas> and yes, for that much, one brainfuck program is enough
15:58:27 <wib_jonas> the second brainfuck program just makes it more powerful than TC
15:59:00 <wib_jonas> though not more powerful for any one fixed input, admittedly
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18:48:25 <ais523> b_jonas: Grace is definitely computable, it allows the 0 case to enter an infinite loop
18:48:40 <ais523> thus it can be computed simply by running all possible computations interleaved and seeing if any of them output 1
18:49:12 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm...
18:49:34 <b_jonas> so it's exactly turing-complete?
18:49:44 <b_jonas> I guess you're right
18:50:11 <ais523> for a TCness proof, I think it's sufficient for one program simply to create longer and longer internal states, and the other program to do all the real work
18:50:42 <b_jonas> ais523: that would work too, yes
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18:51:47 <ais523> I think a much more interesting question is whether deterministic Grace is TC, I'm not convinced that it isn't
18:52:04 <b_jonas> though in a string replacement language like 1.1 or Thue, any one rule will increase the string length only by a constant term, so you can directly represent such a rule in Grace
18:52:15 <ais523> (i.e. with only one program rather than two)
18:52:23 <ais523> it clearly would be if not for the linear boundedness
18:52:46 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's still TC if you want a fixed Grace input, say always give "1" as the input. 
18:52:57 <b_jonas> ais523: you can translate 1.1 into it, or a deterministic version of Thue 
18:53:09 <b_jonas> where the brainfuck program always executes the first rule that matches
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18:53:15 <ais523> ah right, yes, or any language which works by transforming an internal state one step at a time
18:53:25 <b_jonas> 1.1 is a bit more complicated because you also need to store the finite control state in the string
18:53:28 <ais523> where each individual step grows the string only finitely
18:53:44 <ais523> actually my first thought for this was MiniMAX
18:54:02 <ais523> but that's awkward because you need a weird representation of the instruction pointer and old instruction pointer
18:54:42 <b_jonas> ais523: would a version of Thue that always does the first replacement rule that applies work?
18:54:47 <ais523> hmm, that made me think of an entirely different problem: what's the minimum number of word-pairs needed for the Post Correspondence Problem to be TC?
18:55:02 <ais523> b_jonas: yes
18:55:12 <b_jonas> is there a name for that deterministic Thue or something close?
18:55:23 <b_jonas> perhaps even an article on esolangs.org?
18:55:27 <imode> y'all talkin about thue.
18:55:39 <b_jonas> it's not 1.1, because 1.1 has a finite control state, so it's actually much harder to translate
18:55:48 <ais523> deterministic Thues have been talked about quite a bit, but there are two different ways to determinize Thue
18:55:56 <ais523> one is to always take the first rule, one is to always take the first position in the program
18:55:59 <imode> one is prioritization of rules and...
18:56:01 <imode> yeah.
18:56:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah
18:56:12 <b_jonas> in this case either one would work
18:56:15 <ais523> come to think of it, 2C would work great for this
18:56:18 <b_jonas> because you can translate either one to brainfuck
18:56:30 <ais523> as one step of 2C is a finite state machine
18:56:47 <imode> I've been working on a "brainfuck" to Thue translator since yesterday, funny this comes up now.
18:57:20 <ais523> how many tape cells do you need to convert arbitrary finite state machines to BF? my guess is 2, possibly 1 is enough
18:57:47 <ais523> (IIRC, 3 is enough to be TC if you have bignum cells, but obviously an FSM doesn't need bignums)
18:58:11 <imode> 1 would be enough, wouldn't it?
18:58:24 <imode> or would you need 2, one for state and one for input.
18:58:44 <ais523> oh, I didn't even think of putting the state in a cell
18:59:01 <ais523> I was thinking you use the IP to record the state, in which the hard part is whether or not you can escape from brackets without forgetting what you're doing
18:59:20 <ais523> you probably need 2 cells simply because you can't escape a loop unless the current cell is 0
18:59:33 <ais523> meaning that in 1-cell brainfuck, you can't remember anything across a ]
18:59:53 <imode> yeah.
19:00:03 <b_jonas> ais523: there's also one-tape thue, in which the input, every string state, every search string, and every replacement string must contain exactly one "1"
19:00:09 <b_jonas> which works like a two-stack machine
19:00:12 <ais523> a conditional-goto version of BF would only need one cell to implement an FSM, and it only needs that cell to be able to read the input
19:00:28 <b_jonas> and you can check that it's locally deterministic
19:00:53 <ais523> hmm, this implies that structured programming can actually make languages less powerful sometimes
19:00:55 <b_jonas> cpressey: ^
19:01:26 <imode> yeah, that's kind of why I got off of it.
19:01:28 <b_jonas> basically you can translate a two-stack finite control machine to a Thue program that is intrinsically determinisitic, that's what I wanted to say
19:01:31 <imode> it's too restrictive.
19:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-06-01.html#lZb
19:03:58 <b_jonas> also, do prolog variants really use different atoms as the head of a non-empty list?
19:05:13 <b_jonas> yes they do. SWI prolog uses '[|]' as the head, gnu prolog uses '.' as the head
19:06:39 <b_jonas> This is like one of those weird BSD vs Sysv differences, isn't it?
19:08:41 <b_jonas> they also represent the empty list differently
19:12:38 <b_jonas> apparently in gnu prolog, the atom '[]' is the empty list, and '.'(Car,Cdr) is a non-empty list; in swi prolog, '[|]'(Car,Cdr) is a non-empty list, and the empty list isn't even an atom (wtf)
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19:16:09 <ais523> I think traditionally in Prolog, '.' is the name of the cons operator
19:16:20 <b_jonas> ais523: that's what I thought too
19:16:36 <ais523> I guess it's a good name because it's one of the few things that never parses as an operator naturally
19:16:44 <ais523> so it's unlikely to clash with a user-defined operator
19:17:01 <b_jonas> yes, nor does it parse as an atom
19:17:17 <ais523> `` swipl -qg 'display(/(A,B)).'
19:17:19 <HackEso> ​/(_380,_382)
19:17:24 <ais523> `` swipl -qg 'display(A/B).'
19:17:25 <HackEso> ​/(_380,_382)
19:17:30 <ais523> ah, OK
19:17:42 <ais523> for a moment I though it was making a distinction and got very confused
19:17:54 <ais523> GNU prolog uses infix notation when displaying operators, I think
19:17:54 <b_jonas> the parser makes a distinction
19:18:04 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'true(A,B)'
19:18:06 <HackEso> ERROR: -g true(A,B): catch/3: Undefined procedure: true/2 \ ERROR:   However, there are definitions for: \ ERROR:         true/0
19:18:12 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B)'
19:18:13 <HackEso> No output.
19:18:28 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B).'
19:18:29 <HackEso> No output.
19:18:34 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B), display(L).'
19:18:34 <ais523> that's not a distinction between infix and prefix
19:18:35 <HackEso> true(_380,_382)
19:18:41 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(A true B), display(L).'
19:18:42 <HackEso> ERROR: -g (A true B), display(L).: Syntax error: Operator expected \ ERROR: (A \ ERROR: ** here ** \ ERROR:  true B), display(L).
19:18:50 <ais523> "true" isn't an operator
19:18:54 <b_jonas> yeah
19:19:07 <ais523> I think you can make things into operators in Prolog but forget how
19:19:22 <ais523> ``` swipl -qg 'display(!(A,B)).'
19:19:23 <HackEso> ​!(_380,_382)
19:19:30 <ais523> oh wow, I'm kind-of surprised that worked
19:19:38 <ais523> ``` swipl -qg '!(x,y).'
19:19:39 <HackEso> ERROR: -g !(x,y).: catch/3: Undefined procedure: !/2 \ ERROR:   However, there are definitions for: \ ERROR:         !/0
19:19:48 <ais523> looks like you can call a predicate ! if you want to
19:19:54 <ais523> presumably only if it has argumetns
19:20:31 <ais523> or maybe ! is implemented as a predicate that looks back along the call stack somehow?
19:20:48 <b_jonas> I think you could, but the above output doesn't really prove that
19:20:54 <ais523> most Prologs have a cut equivalent of setjmp/longjmp, but doing it without the setjmp is impressive
19:21:12 <ais523> I know the above output doesn't prove it, but it does make it more likely
19:24:07 <b_jonas> anyway, prolog doesn't have vararg predicates, so when it tries to execute a !, it can look up the atom together with its arity, and then find a very special magic builtin 
19:24:28 <b_jonas> similarly for 2-arity ;
19:24:49 <ais523> you could use assert in a loop to emulate a varag predicate, but you'd have to stop generating at some maximum number
19:24:54 <b_jonas> it might even represent !/0 and !/2 with different words in the head internally
19:25:05 <ais523> also ; doesn't have to be magical, you can implement it in standard Prolog
19:25:13 <ais523> it's , that's magical
19:25:27 <b_jonas> ; is sort of magical because of how it behaves on the right side of a ->
19:25:40 <ais523> I thought that was just operator precedenc
19:25:43 <ais523> *precedence
19:25:45 <b_jonas> no
19:26:20 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1), R.'
19:26:20 <HackEso> ERROR: -g (true->R=0;R=1), R.: '<meta-call>'/1: Type error: `callable' expected, found `0' (an integer)
19:26:27 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1), display(R).'
19:26:29 <HackEso> 0
19:26:38 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1)=..L, display(L).'
19:26:39 <HackEso> ​[;,->(true,=(_380,0)),=(_380,1)]
19:26:44 <b_jonas> hmm maybe it is
19:27:05 <b_jonas> ok sorry, I'm wrong
19:27:10 <b_jonas> maybe it's -> that's magical then?
19:27:16 <b_jonas> one of them has to be magical
19:27:44 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->or(R=0,R=1)), display(R).'
19:27:45 <HackEso> 0
19:27:58 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->or(R=0,R=1)), display(R), fail.'
19:27:59 <HackEso> 01
19:28:06 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->R=0;R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:28:08 <HackEso> 0
19:28:12 <ais523> OK, ; is magical
19:28:24 <ais523> or, wait, no
19:28:29 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->(R=0;R=1)), display(R), fail.'
19:28:30 <HackEso> 01
19:28:37 <ais523> yes, nonmagical, it's just operator precedence
19:29:00 <b_jonas> hmm wait, let me test this
19:29:06 <ais523> actually I'm not sure , is magical, I just can't see a way to define it except in terms of itself
19:29:32 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), or((true->R=0),R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:33 <HackEso> 01
19:29:41 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), ((true->R=0);R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:42 <HackEso> 0
19:29:49 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), or((true->R=0),R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:50 <HackEso> 01
19:29:52 <b_jonas> ^
19:29:59 <ais523> yes, we both thought of that test at once
19:30:00 <b_jonas> yeah, you tested the same thing
19:30:06 <ais523> that does look somewhat magical
19:30:34 <b_jonas> I guess it might still not be magical, if say (A;B) just checks whether the head of A is ->
19:30:44 <b_jonas> a normal predicate could do that
19:30:48 <ais523> I tend not to use -> anyway because it makes my head hurt, this shows why
19:31:08 <b_jonas> you know you can translate -> to ! right?
19:31:19 <ais523> I'd find that much clearer
19:31:41 <ais523> although doesn't the translation need an auxiliary predicate sometimes to control the scope of !?
19:31:50 <b_jonas> yes, it needs an auxiliary predicate
19:35:09 <ais523> I wonder why Lisp is as popular as it is, given the existence of Prolog
19:35:16 <ais523> I would have thought Prolog was just a strictly better Lisp
19:35:24 <ais523> that said, neither language is all that popular
19:38:27 <b_jonas> ais523: well the good news is, olvashato compiles conditionals or pattern matching to -> in general, but the current version optimizes them to ! when they're at the top level of a predicate
19:38:38 <int-e> Meh, Prolog has an awful execution model.
19:39:00 <ais523> you don't actually have to make use of the backtracking
19:39:03 <b_jonas> so it will make your head hurt less, and that was specifically the goal, though not for your head in particular, but for the head of the professor that read the homework prolog program generated with it
19:39:24 <b_jonas> however, I think the version that I used to submit the homework didn't have that optimization yet
19:39:41 <int-e> ais523: but backtracking is the default, you have to actively fight it if you don't want it
19:39:47 <b_jonas> or maybe it did have it, it just didn't have the similar optimization for the sml output? I dunno
19:39:52 <ais523> int-e: only if you use nondeterministic predicates
19:40:16 <int-e> and the syntax isn't all that great either.
19:40:18 <ais523> if all your predicates are deteriministic the evaluation order is the same as Lisp
19:40:18 * int-e shrugs
19:40:45 <int-e> I don't like Prolog. Lisp at least has meta-programming going for it.
19:41:13 <ais523> the point is that Prolog can be meta-programmed in exactly the same way
19:41:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, prolog is not a strictly better list, because if you write a function composition expression like (a (b c)) in lisp, where a and b are functions, then in List you have to make up a variable name for the temporary, like (b(C, O), a(O, ...)) where O is the temporary variable that never appears in lisp
19:41:38 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, that's a good point
19:41:49 <b_jonas> ais523: also lisp has convenient first class functions, mutable bindings, mutable vectors, and some more convenient builtins
19:42:05 <int-e> (Lisp's main problem is one of attitude. The so called "common" lisp is huge, complex, badly documented unless you already know Lisp, and completely ignores the fact  that there's a plethora of languages outside of Lisp that you might want to bind to.)
19:42:17 <ais523> at one point I was considering a Prolog variant where predicates had a "return value", so writing A=f(B,C) in the variant would be equivalent to f(B,C,A) in actual Prolog
19:42:21 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+893) Created page with "'''Jumplang''' is a [[brainfuck]]-derived esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] designed to be easier to implement in another esolang than normal brainfuck.  ==Difference..."
19:42:22 <b_jonas> ais523: mutable stuff is specifically hard to translate to prolog, whereas lisps have builtins for it (though they may differ between common lisp and scheme)
19:42:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that prolog variant exists, I think it's called Mozart or something
19:42:57 <int-e> But Lisp at least seemed worth using to me at some point until I ran into those problems. Prolog... never appealed to me except as a declarative-ish programming curiosity for simple backtracking solvers.
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19:44:18 <ais523> actually, I think I realised what I prefer about deterministic Prolog compared to Lisp: the quoting mechanisms are so much nicer
19:44:45 <ais523> that's probably a consequence of return values not existing, though
19:44:45 <b_jonas> ais523: apparently it's called Oz language and the implementation is called Mozart, just to confuse people
19:45:08 <ais523> hmm, maybe Prolog could do with some sort of scoped assert
19:45:15 <b_jonas> ais523: but the point is, you don't need quoting mechanisms if you program lisp like a sane procedural language
19:45:25 <ais523> Prolog does mutability just fine, its issue is that it's all global
19:45:40 <ais523> b_jonas: yes you do, e.g. when setting a variable
19:46:05 <ais523> if you do (set a b) then Lisp will attempt to evaluate both a and b, in order to generate the name of the variable it's setting and the value it's setting it to separately
19:46:07 <b_jonas> ais523: not for scheme, no. you might need it in lesser lisp variants, but those have other drawbacks too
19:46:20 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that's common lisp weirdness, we don't do that in scheme at all
19:46:46 <ais523> b_jonas: well in Common Lisp you normally use a macro setq that's just set with the first argument quoted
19:46:49 <b_jonas> you don't want to be able to access just any local variable by name, would you?
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19:47:05 <b_jonas> that just makes optimization much harder than it should be
19:47:09 <b_jonas> scheme doesn't have that feature
19:47:21 <b_jonas> you can still access *global* variables by name, and mutate them too, if you want
19:47:27 <b_jonas> like in perl or python
19:47:29 <b_jonas> but not locals
19:47:40 <b_jonas> so the normal way to set a variable is (set! variablename value) 
19:47:59 <ais523> ah, I always assumed that was analogous to setq, but maybe not?
19:48:02 <b_jonas> and that's the only builtin that can mutate a variable, though there are some other builtin macros
19:48:17 <b_jonas> ais523: it's analogous to setq, but there's no set that can modify a local variable by name
19:48:24 <ais523> it's magical because the name is being interpreted differently depending on the scope in which set! appears
19:48:45 <ais523> whereas setq is literally just adding an apostrophe
19:48:58 <b_jonas> ais523: you could say that, it's one of the few built-in expression types, but you can define a macro that does exactly that, 
19:50:17 <ais523> fwiw, many Lisp programmers prefer to use recursion rather than mutable variables; I wonder if that's related to issues of identifier scoping?
19:50:31 <ais523> although maybe not, when I program OCaml I often choose to use recursion rather than mutable variables
19:50:38 <b_jonas> define is way more magical (it's still implemented as a macro, but it's implemented like -> can be implemented in prolog, where lambda looks in its body to find defines)
19:51:06 <ais523> (variables in OCaml are like variables in Algol; the variable /itself/ is immutable once assigned, but the variable's /contents/ can be mutable)
19:51:31 <ais523> it's like writing int *const x = malloc(sizeof(int)) in C
19:51:34 <b_jonas> ais523: do they really? there are very convenient macros to encapsulate that kind of recursion with immutable variables changing from one iteration to another, and I think lisp programmers would mostly use those, just like Haskell programmers
19:52:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean, instead of writing a loop that repeatedly mutates some variables
19:52:25 <b_jonas> ais523: well yes then. but I think Haskell and SML programmers do that too.
19:52:36 <ais523> you write a function that's the loop body, give those variables as arguments, and have it "mutate" the variables from one loop iteration to the next by calling itself with differnet arguments
19:52:41 <b_jonas> lisp just makes the mutating version easier than in SML and much easier than in Haskell
19:52:59 <b_jonas> heck, while we're there, you do that in prolog too, don't you?
19:53:01 <ais523> the mutating version is pretty easy in OCaml given the sugar that exists
19:53:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I do it in anything that's remotely functional, I may be unusual though
19:53:22 <b_jonas> yes, it's pretty easy in scheme too because of macros that sugar it
19:53:36 <ais523> `` ocaml --help
19:53:37 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ocaml: command not found
19:53:41 <ais523> aww
19:53:57 <ais523> although it'd be quite complex to hook up to HackEso as it is
19:54:02 <ais523> it's not a very commandliney language
19:54:20 <b_jonas> we don't have gnu prolog either
19:54:33 <b_jonas> ``` ghc --version
19:54:34 <HackEso> bash: ghc: command not found
19:54:39 <b_jonas> ``` ghci --version
19:54:40 <HackEso> bash: ghci: command not found
19:54:53 <b_jonas> we can't have everything in HackEso
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19:55:06 <b_jonas> it already does a lot
19:57:47 <ais523> so this is what an imperative loop looks like in OCaml: https://tio.run/##HYtLDsIwDAX3OcVjx2cBLQskUHuVCBGHWnJt1EZqbx/cLt@8Gfu8R6lVqGBFh4ky2gdYwzKwEA4rejRIFuD/swPnjY2W0Lp@QxlIN3L1TTLvxRl3XNC8vPlNrCWSJmGl41x8fqPl6NTNU0imVOsf
19:58:28 <ais523> I like how clear the use/mention distinction is in OCaml, it distinguishes very clearly between a variable and its value
19:58:41 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, then that does seem to be stronger syntactic sugar than what scheme has
19:58:57 <b_jonas> oh wait, it has a reference
19:59:02 <b_jonas> then that is a mutating loop
19:59:09 <ais523> yes, that's a mutating loop
19:59:14 <ais523> not sugar for a recursive loop
19:59:14 <b_jonas> you can do that in scheme or SML then
19:59:21 <shachaf> I like the ALGOL 68/BLISS style but I'm not sure whether it's too complicated in practice.
20:00:04 <b_jonas> SML has mutable cells, the same kind that OCaml has; scheme doesn't directly have them, but you can implement them easily as library functions based on either mutable bindings, or on mutable conses, or on mutable vectors.
20:00:06 <shachaf> Especially if you have a whole bunch of !s in one line, for a bunch of mutable variable dereference and array indexing and so on.
20:00:33 <b_jonas> but for a simple loop like that, you wouldn't do that
20:00:44 <b_jonas> ais523: how does the sugar for a recursive loop like that work in OCaml?
20:00:46 <shachaf> Probably you can implement mutable cells in Scheme in terms of continuations if you want to be all schemey about it.
20:01:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: eek
20:01:33 <b_jonas> oh right, I needn't ask that, that's what Rosetta Code is forr
20:01:49 <ais523> b_jonas: here's the recursive version: https://tio.run/##HYtLDsIwDAX3OcVjx2cBLQskUHuVCBGHWnJt1EZqbx/cLt@8Gfu8R6lVqGBFh4ky2gdYwzKwEA4rejRIFuD/swPnjY2W0Lp@QxlIN3L1TTLvxRl3XNC8vPlNrCWSJmGl41x8fqPl6NTNU0imVOsf
20:02:26 <shachaf> Another thing is that if you convert something from an immutable to a mutable variable, you need to change x to !x everywhere in your code.
20:02:32 <ais523> or an alternative version: https://tio.run/##RYsxDsIwEAR7v2LLBISAUFAg@IqFnDOc5JxRYiQX/N1sCsQ1u7Oay@E@pdaSFMwSEHBFfFsoms19cMTuhq5nq2tbrUpDI2PKIwbCAeUpxmFPlLQI6wYnbPmt5vC716xWvNiY1KRbCvHhc/RcUfvLXwyoTo0xnFv7Ag
20:02:33 <shachaf> It admittedly has different semantics.
20:02:34 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ I don't think that's the url you wanted to paste
20:02:36 <b_jonas> the first one
20:02:59 <ais523> oh yes, I pasted the same link twice
20:03:10 <ais523> just use the second one, then, the match is more idiomatic than an if/then anyway
20:04:01 <b_jonas> I think you could translate that latter one to SML or haskell in a straightforward way; in lisp you'd have to use an if or some other conditional construct rather than pattern guards
20:04:34 <ais523> you can do it using if just fine, but OCaml's if syntax is ugly if the inside of the if is nontrivial
20:04:35 <b_jonas> oh yeah, we now have egel as our esoteric functional language with pattern guards too
20:05:35 <ais523> I would be surprised if there were constructs in OCaml that didn't translate easily to SML, apart from the object-oriented stuff and maybe polymorphic variants
20:06:57 <ais523> they belong to the same language family, after all
20:08:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric coder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73209 * DmilkaSTD * (+118) Created page with "== Uhm.. == Esocoder sounds better --~~~~"
20:08:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they share a common ancestor
20:08:55 <b_jonas> and yes, I should eventually get back to the egel language and install a version with a working wrapper to HackEso
20:09:04 <b_jonas> because it's such a conveniently useful esolang
20:10:05 <ais523> polymorphic variants are great, incidentally, they make some programming tasks (e.g. writing compilers for which intermediate representations have different constructs legal at different points in the compile) much easier
20:10:37 <b_jonas> that sounds nice. what are they?
20:10:55 <ais523> you basically just use enum tags at will, matching only on the tags you expect to be present at that point in the program, and generating only the ones you're supposed to generate
20:10:58 <b_jonas> are they open variants (like Haskell classes) or closed variants (like Haskell algebraic data types with disjuction)?
20:11:10 <ais523> and the compiler statically checks that the producers and consumers match up
20:11:18 <b_jonas> ah, anonymous closed variants then
20:11:23 <ais523> yes
20:11:43 <ais523> anonymous closed variants where you can reuse the same tags across different variants, perhaps with different types for the associated data
20:12:02 <b_jonas> can you also typedef specific unions of them, so that you get saner error messages from the typechecker?
20:12:05 <ais523> yes
20:12:08 <b_jonas> good
20:12:15 <b_jonas> yes, that sounds like very useful
20:12:47 <ais523> they can be open as well, if you write a match where the last case is _ then the type system takes note of that
20:13:04 <ais523> and will let the caller supply you anything
20:14:13 <b_jonas> in other languages, you have to simulate them in one way or another. you can simulate them with a wrapper to the largest enum type; or, if the related types are in a tree structure (which is common but not universal) with nested enums; or with some crazy magic in Haskell
20:14:18 <b_jonas> I don't remember how the last one works
20:14:22 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73210&oldid=73166 * Emerald * (+2) Fixed heading size
20:15:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah, also with defining each type as separate enums and using compiler magic to write implicit cast functions from one to the other
20:15:35 <ais523> the OCaml implementation isn't quite as good as it could be, occasionally you need to explicitly write casts
20:15:44 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what causes that to happen
20:16:01 <b_jonas> I was just thinking of these because I have an interpreter that may require such variant types where there are two related enums that overlap but neither is a subset of the other
20:16:49 <b_jonas> ais523: do you still have to write explicit casts if the involved enum types are closed and there are no free type paramters?
20:17:16 <ais523> b_jonas: it's confusing, I haven't figured out the exact trigger, it doesn't happen very often
20:17:37 <ais523> I think it's something like, if you use the same variable in two different contexts, and one context allows more variants than the other
20:17:41 <ais523> you need to write a cast
20:17:42 <b_jonas> no wait, that's not what I wanted to ask
20:17:49 <ais523> because the type inference algorithm is expecting each variable to have only one type
20:18:15 <b_jonas> ais523: do you still have to write explicit casts if the involved enum types are closed and there are no free type paramters, and the content of every constructor is exactly the same type everywhere (as opposed to a constructor appearing with different types, one of which is a subtype of another)?
20:18:35 <ais523> so if x can be either `A or `B, you can use it as a parameter to a function expecting a [`A | `B], or as a parameter to a function expecting a [`A | `B | `C]
20:18:46 <ais523> but if you try to use it with both, you need to write a cast or the type inference algorithm gets confused
20:19:16 <ais523> I think that's the only case that needs a cast, though
20:19:17 <b_jonas> ais523: how do you use the same variable as two different ones of those if the variable is immutable?
20:19:43 <ais523> b_jonas: well the variable is either a `A or a `B, right?
20:19:53 <ais523> so any function which accepts `A and `B as possible tags should be able to accept it
20:21:21 <ais523> or, hmm, this works: https://tio.run/##fcqxDsIwDIThnae4sR0YgLECCXiQFBU7WAoOal2pQ989xIi523@nLw@PdyolkYFxBs86mGRFf8X@ggNW9Devo9fd6wTRnfu47f9qqUoYNs4Ee9FPUprIXSWfUdQC6TOJUjNZnTFkDvVtGEvbdpskOinlCw
20:21:30 <b_jonas> ais523: is that even if you explicitly type the variable to an enum that can be `A or `B, as opposed to some case where the type inference just can't derive that because of confusing loops?
20:21:36 <ais523> so either the bug with casting has been fixed, or the cause is more complex
20:22:18 <ais523> here's how it looks with an explicit type: https://tio.run/##fYsxDsIwDEV3TvHHdmCAbiCQgGMglKLiBEvBqVpX6tC7hxgxd3v2fy91z0/MOZLC4wQ/SaecBO0F2zN2WNBejfZGN6MGLBvzw7r/t2YccC@rDY9SsIcOE0Hf9KsojmRN0fuBRR3JK7JQNWo5g0velW/lMdf1cVUJpuT8BQ
20:22:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wow, that looks like it has way too few parenthesis for something like this
20:23:40 <ais523> just for you, the same program with no parentheses: https://tio.run/##jYtBCsJADEX3PcW/gAt1p1hQjyEylZqMgTEjbQpd9O7jRFyLu5f893J/e6ZSEhkYB/CkvUlWdEesWqyxoDs5bZzOTluINu7H3/7XmrHDpa4@XGshDBsmgj3oU1EayZuqc5WXFqMNojFkDqLmj1e9LZDekyjtm/iPVsob
20:23:46 <b_jonas> I'll assume the cause is more complex, and it involves a case where the type inference algorithm can't easily see that the function can get only an `A or `B
20:23:51 <ais523> if you remove the explict type from x it has no brackets either!
20:24:08 <b_jonas> heh
20:24:20 <ais523> (|>) is the equivalent of flip ($)
20:24:25 <ais523> from Haskell
20:24:29 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73211&oldid=73208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190) 
20:24:48 <ais523> and is probably the more readable argument order
20:25:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if OCaml even has ($) in its standard library, but it's easy enough to implement
20:25:34 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73212&oldid=73210 * Emerald * (+319) Persuade
20:25:36 <ais523> OCaml operator names get a bit weird sometimes, because for mental parseability, all operators that start with the same first character have the same precedence
20:25:43 <b_jonas> ais523: the (general) identity function was added to the rust standard library only like a year ago
20:25:46 <ais523> e.g. |> has the same precedence as ||
20:25:47 <b_jonas> and it's useful
20:26:01 <b_jonas> and yes, it's also trivial to implement 
20:26:05 <ais523> what type does it have?
20:26:14 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a generic function actually, so no single type
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20:26:16 <ais523> (in Rust, it's obvious in most languages)
20:26:30 <ais523> right, I was trying to figure out how you typed it in Rust
20:26:41 <b_jonas> it's like fn<T> identity(v: T) -> T { v }
20:26:46 <int-e> > let f = \case True -> 1; False -> 2 in map f [False ..] -- does this have too few parentheses as well?
20:26:49 <lambdabot>  [2,1]
20:26:49 <ais523> ah right, of course
20:26:56 <b_jonas> so the specific type for any one T is fn(T) -> T
20:27:12 <b_jonas> the generic one doesn't have a type and can't be used as a first-class value
20:27:34 <b_jonas> sort of like in C++ until perhaps lately when they made them usable as a class value with a templated overloaded () operator
20:27:50 <ais523> I guess you could set T to dyn Any, but that isn't all that useful a type
20:28:14 <ais523> … would identity even work on dyn Any, or would you need a box?
20:28:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think it would work, or at least it wouldn't be useful
20:29:01 <b_jonas> ais523: one of the reasons why the identity function is useful is that it lets you write type ascriptions, sort of like (expression :: SomeSpecificType) in haskell
20:29:11 <ais523> ah, that isn't what I was guessing at all
20:29:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73213&oldid=73170 * Emerald * (+205) /* Tips For Making a Golfing Language */
20:29:23 <b_jonas> so you write them as identity<SomeSpecificType>(expression) in rust
20:29:28 <ais523> I thought you used it as a parameter to a higher-order function
20:29:32 <ais523> and no, you don't write them as that
20:29:37 <ais523> the < in that is the less-than operator
20:29:42 <b_jonas> yeah
20:29:49 <ais523> identity::<SomeSpecificType>::(expression)
20:29:53 <b_jonas> identity::<SomeSpecificType>(expression)
20:29:56 <ais523> not sure on the last ::
20:30:03 <b_jonas> no, I think it's a :: only on the left
20:30:11 <b_jonas> and I think the right one is an error
20:30:26 <ais523> yes; there /is/ a context where you need the :: on the right too, but it isn't that context
20:30:32 <b_jonas> and yes, you can also use it as a parameter to a higher-order function, which is the official argument for why it's in the stdlib now
20:31:25 <b_jonas> the same thing is useful in C++ too by the way, where it's not in the standard library yet, but I've used it for years in my previous work 
20:31:38 <b_jonas> I call it ret_cast but I don't think that's a standard name
20:32:09 <ais523> it's very similar to static_cast, I guess
20:32:20 <ais523> the only difference is that you can take its address, I think?
20:32:32 <b_jonas> no, that's not the difference
20:32:37 <ais523> thus letting you use it as a function argument even without giving it an argument
20:32:50 <b_jonas> the difference is that it doesn't do certain explicit conversions that static_cast would do without a warning
20:33:05 <ais523> oh, such as long to int?
20:33:12 <b_jonas> no, long to int is the one I want to do without a warning
20:33:21 <b_jonas> numeric conversion is my primary use for ret_cast
20:33:26 <b_jonas> and that's why it has a rather long definition,
20:33:37 <ais523> I kind-of assumed static_cast would warn for the weirder conversions
20:33:38 <b_jonas> because you need to suppress warnings about implicit number conversion in that one function
20:33:40 <ais523> but maybe it doesn't
20:33:47 <ais523> void* to intptr_t, for example
20:34:02 <ais523> I guess there has to be a way to show that's intentional
20:34:11 <b_jonas> I think static_cast will call a one-argument constructor marked as explicit, without a warning
20:34:17 <b_jonas> that's the main problem
20:34:26 <b_jonas> but the detailed rules are so complicated that I can't remember them
20:34:28 <b_jonas> C++ is weird
20:34:41 <b_jonas> so I gave up and just use ret_cast whenever I don't want such a surprise
20:36:52 <b_jonas> the definition is: #if _MSC_VER \ #pragma warning(push) \ #pragma warning(disable: 4244 4267) \ #endif \ template<typename dest_type, typename src_type> inline dest_type ret_cast(src_type &&x) { return std::forward<src_type>(x); } \ #if _MSC_VER \ #pragma warning(pop) \ #endif
20:37:26 <b_jonas> and I think there's some magic syntax to suppress the same warnings in gcc/clang too, but it's not the same as in MSVC and I haven't looked up what it is
20:37:52 <ais523> thinking about it, void* to intptr_t should be reinterpret_cast, really
20:38:04 <ais523> but maybe there are machines in which the bits actually change
20:38:15 <esowiki> [[ReThue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73214&oldid=50430 * DmilkaSTD * (+24) 
20:38:33 <ais523> what are the two warnings being disabled?
20:38:36 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's a reinterpret_cast, not a static_cast, and the bits can change in a reinterpret_cast, but again I'm not sure about the rules
20:38:58 <b_jonas> ais523: uh, something about implicit numeric conversion, but I'm not sure what, I'd have to look it up in the MSVC docs
20:39:15 <ais523> oh, I see, you're explicitly turning off long-to-int style warnings
20:39:33 <ais523> I don't know enough C++ to properly follow the moves here
20:39:45 <b_jonas> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/error-messages/compiler-warnings/compiler-warning-levels-3-and-4-c4244?view=vs-2019
20:39:57 <ais523> if you use ret_cast on a variable, does its value get moved? I'm guessing no, because prefix && acts only on rvalues?
20:40:52 <ais523> also wow is that site badly organized
20:41:00 <ais523> you can't guess the URL for any particular warning
20:41:08 <b_jonas> ais523: admittedly that's for an old verions of MSVC I think
20:41:13 <b_jonas> but yes 
20:41:19 <ais523> because it depends on some arbitrary grouping that you wouldn't be able to learn without first finding the page for the warning
20:42:37 <b_jonas> ais523: if you use it on a non-const varible of say type int, then it gets instantiated with src_type being int &, in which case the magic && in the argument list disappears because there's a & before it, and the function takes int & as a type, so it takes a non-const reference to the variable and copies ity
20:43:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73215&oldid=73150 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* J */ + [[Jumplang]]
20:43:34 <b_jonas> whereas if you call it on an rvalue of type int, say ret_cast<long)(3+x), then the src_type is derived to be int, the function takes an argument int &&, and moves that value
20:43:44 <b_jonas> for an int this doesn't matter too much, because moving and copying it is the same thing
20:43:46 <ais523> how C++
20:44:09 <ais523> even Rust's move vs. copy rules are more complex than I'd like
20:44:13 <ais523> but this is worse
20:44:19 <ais523> (yes, I know Rust's are simple)
20:44:41 <b_jonas> but for a non-trivial type where moving and copying isn't the same, it can matter, and this mostly does the Right Thing^TM, except if you try to pass an initializer-list into it
20:45:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73216&oldid=73162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) /* Languages */
20:50:57 <b_jonas> also, today I read some of the (easy parts of) the source code of ImageMagick, to figure out what the interface of a certain public API function in MagickWand is, since it wasn't properly documented
20:52:38 <b_jonas> luckily the command line ImageMagick programs are implemented (mostly) in terms of MagickWand (the high-level C api of ImageMagick), so the source code for that has a place where it calls this function, and I could find out what it expects as the second argument from there
20:52:47 <zzo38> Which function?
20:53:23 <zzo38> (And, what version of ImageMagick?)
20:53:50 <b_jonas> MagickSetImageChannelMask and ImageMagick 7
20:54:07 <b_jonas> this corresponds to the -channel setting in command line
20:54:42 <b_jonas> the second argument is a bitmask for which enum values are defined in a header
20:56:35 <b_jonas> and I need this for the -combine operation, which takes multiple grayscale images and converts them to a single image with those used as different channels, but you have to tell what those channels are, eg. RGB, RGBA, IA, CYMK, etc, and you use the -channel option for that
20:56:55 <b_jonas> and then you have to restore that setting with +channel, which calls the same function with some default argument
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21:02:34 <zzo38> Do you know if the latest version of ImageMagick supports YCoCg, and if it supports farbfeld, and if it supports pictures with custom separations?
21:04:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know if it supports YCoCg specifically. It has some formats that read YUV and convert it to RGB immediately, and the inverse for writing. It probably doesn't have too much support for keeping an image as YUV, but you can probably still do it just have to be careful with all operations that assume RGB or CYMK.
21:04:58 <b_jonas> and I don't know about custom separations, but I think ImageMagick 7 specifically improved about handling custom channels or color spaces compared to ImageMagick 6
21:05:04 <b_jonas> I don't know the details though
21:05:16 <zzo38> Yes, I thought I read that too, but I don't know the details either.
21:06:53 <b_jonas> it says there's a "YCbCr" and "YCbCrA" format, I don't know if that's the same as YCoCg; and there's a YUV format for YUV with subsampling
21:08:59 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73217&oldid=73211 * Emerald * (+726) Commands
21:12:30 <zzo38> I think it isn't the same as YCoCg.
21:14:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: anyway, I mostly used ffmpeg to read or write YUV format, but not too much, mostly ffmpeg just did conversion to/from YUV formats implicitly because that's how jpeg and and many compressed video formats store colors
21:16:27 <zzo38> Although conversion between YCoCg and RGB is lossless anyways, so simply if you want to use file formats that support YCoCg, there is no need for ImageMagick to support them directly, unless you want to directly manipulate the data in YCoCg format, such as to separate them.
21:17:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: also I used ffmpeg to read uncompressed bayer mosaic frames, which is what digital color camera sensors actually capture, and high-end cameras can send you the raw uncompressed thing (if you can take the bandwidth)
21:17:42 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73218&oldid=73217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Commands */ clarify
21:18:06 <b_jonas> ffmpeg can read them and debayer them 
21:18:19 <b_jonas> and then I encode that to a lossy compressed video
21:18:23 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73219&oldid=73218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Differences from brainfuck */
21:18:37 <zzo38> O, OK. I have not worked with that, although it does seem something you may want to deal with.
21:18:47 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73220&oldid=73219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) /* Commands */
21:18:58 <zzo38> But I think the raw camera format is TIFF, so requires parsing all of the TIFF stuff?
21:19:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are various brand-specific raw camera formats, some of which are TIFF, and most of them are compressed to some amount for photo cameras, because compression is useful; the uncompressed bayer was for a video camera,
21:20:37 <b_jonas> there the hard part is getting the uncompressed raw video stream (in a high enough frame rate that we need) through the network, and we did set up a network that has bandwidth for that, 
21:21:34 <b_jonas> and if you do have such a bandwidth then the compression would just hurt. this was over ethernet, but some other camera models send similar uncompressed bayer frames through USB instead
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22:03:28 <zzo38> Other possibility might be to use a kind of digital video connection, although I think that they are not designed for use with Bayer frames. Still, you could perhaps use Digi-RGB with monochrome or pre-interpolated data, and then if they are pre-interpolated (which must be done in a reversible way, if this is to be done), to reverse this operation on the receiver.
22:05:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: we don't need to reverse the debayering. we want to debayer it anyway, transform it to some YUV format with chroma subsampling, and compress it. ffmpeg can do all those steps for me.
22:06:11 <b_jonas> all this is for digital cameras; feed from analog cameras is worse because it's often interlaced odd/even rows
22:07:45 <zzo38> Yes, you usually don't need to reverse the debayering. But I don't know if someone will sometimes need it.
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22:20:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73221 * Emerald * (+1016) /* Turing-Completeness */ new section
22:20:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73222&oldid=73221 * Emerald * (+25) /* Turing-Completeness */
22:25:00 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73223&oldid=73220 * Emerald * (+18) /* Turing-completeness */
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22:53:29 <zzo38> I looked at the documentation of GNU troff, which describes the font file format it uses. It lacks some features that TeX has, and has some features that TeX doesn't have. Such as, the only ligatures it supports are "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", and "ffl"; the metrics includes not only italic correction but also left italic correction and subscript correction.
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23:18:34 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73224&oldid=73223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) 
23:37:42 <esowiki> [[(1) Grace sent you a message]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73225&oldid=72821 * Hakerh400 * (+558) /* Computational class */
23:39:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73226&oldid=73197 * Hakerh400 * (+112) /* Computational class */

2020-06-04:

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00:19:37 <tswett[m]> I just made a particularly interesting typo: I tried to type "Horizontal" but it came out as "Hozitaon".
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00:22:59 <tswett[m]> The typo makes a lot of sense if I make note of which letters are typed on which hand: HO-r-I-z-ON-ta-L versus HO-z-I-ta-ON.
00:24:25 <tswett[m]> Each hand typed its letters in the correct order, but two pairs of segments each commuted, and knocked out the adjacent segments on the same hand.
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01:14:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73227&oldid=73213 * JonoCode9374 * (+226) /* Tips For Making a Golfing Language */
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02:02:29 <esowiki> [[NewFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73228&oldid=68814 * DmilkaSTD * (+30) 
02:06:25 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73229&oldid=73193 * DmilkaSTD * (+46) 
02:09:12 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73230&oldid=73229 * DmilkaSTD * (+70) 
02:10:34 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73231&oldid=73230 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) 
02:32:33 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73232&oldid=73224 * Hakerh400 * (+101) Add Cat program and interpreter
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05:01:05 <zzo38> Do any letters with descenders need accents below?
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07:10:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that combination exists
07:11:15 <b_jonas> let me find a reference
07:32:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, I think I was wrong, it looks like that combination doesn't commonly exist, except in some weird cases like IPA-like pronunciation notation and maths formulas and old obscure stuff where basically any combination exists. 
07:34:34 <b_jonas> I thought for some reason that the Latvian lowercase g with cedilla/comma can be written with the comma below, but that is apparently false
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08:08:03 <cpressey> Good morning.
08:10:35 <rain1> hi!
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08:16:04 <cpressey> I have a lot of things I'd like to do but very little time to do them in. So I have to prioritize them. But I don't have a good reason for doing any of them, other than they are interesting to me -- so I don't have an effective way to prioritize them.
08:22:19 <cpressey> If I try to apply conventional ways of prioritizing them, like trying to judge their "importance", it's totally inapplicable (because none of them can be said to be "important") and worse, under those conditions, working on any of them feels like a chore.
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09:36:37 <wib_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spacedout/
09:36:39 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spacedout/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
09:38:10 <myname> i don't get it
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10:36:26 <wib_jonas> cpressey: is any of them urgent in the sense that if you don't do them soon enough they may become impossible in a few years? is any of them anti-urgent in that they will likely become much easier in a few years?
10:54:09 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73233 * Chris Pressey * (+2987) Created page with "{{lowercase}}  The '''SKA-calculus''' and the '''ask-calculus''' are products of a thought experiment by [[Chris Pressey]] in or around May 2020 to produce a [[concatenative]]..."
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11:00:51 <cpressey> Well I don't mean to be morbid or anything but I tend to assume that in a few years I'll be dead.
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14:19:00 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73234 * Shaman * (+5321) Created page with " '''Nutes''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] claimed by [[Yoel Matveyev]] to be invented in 2017, while posted on Github in 2019.  It is an [[OISC]] virtual machine op..."
14:21:41 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73235&oldid=73234 * Shaman * (-4) 
14:25:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73236&oldid=73109 * Yoel * (+5) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
14:32:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73237&oldid=73236 * Yoel * (+110) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
14:44:42 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73238&oldid=73235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) rm redlnks
14:49:27 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73239&oldid=73233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
14:50:08 <esowiki> [[Renumbering/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73240&oldid=64757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) cat
14:51:37 <esowiki> [[Renumbering/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73241&oldid=73240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) 
15:00:47 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73242&oldid=73239 * Chris Pressey * (+38) Clarification of the operational semantics that might be imagined here
15:06:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73243&oldid=73216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Programs */
15:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73244&oldid=72921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) 
15:14:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73245&oldid=72405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+704) 
15:15:47 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73246&oldid=51668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) unpipe cross-namespace link
15:15:54 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73247&oldid=73246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
15:16:11 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73248&oldid=73247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
15:17:13 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73249&oldid=65607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+117) cats
15:18:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73250&oldid=73153 * Chris Pressey * (+34) There are 45 pages in the "Golfing language" category, so it seems deserved to mention it on this page.
15:20:33 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73251&oldid=65729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) /* Computational class */ how is this a person?
15:21:02 <esowiki> [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73252&oldid=66117 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cats
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16:01:57 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73253&oldid=65928 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Counting up */ cat
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17:41:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * AC01010 *  New user account
17:42:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73254&oldid=73203 * AC01010 * (+169) 
17:42:57 <esowiki> [[Apple Pie]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73255&oldid=71621 * AC01010 * (+1) 
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19:26:34 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73256&oldid=59155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-846) big cleanup
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19:29:33 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73257&oldid=73256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 
19:32:41 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73258&oldid=73257 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 
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19:44:00 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73259&oldid=72942 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+176) /* Cat program (1 character) */
19:44:13 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73260&oldid=73259 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Add two inputs */ cat
19:44:31 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73261&oldid=73260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Expressions */
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20:17:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73262&oldid=73222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2257) 
20:18:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73263&oldid=73262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 
20:19:23 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73264&oldid=73232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) /* Turing-completeness */
20:19:38 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73265&oldid=73264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Interpreters */
20:19:55 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73266&oldid=73265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Interpreters */
20:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73267&oldid=73205 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
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23:45:58 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73268&oldid=73122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+317) /* Switches */
23:47:27 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73269&oldid=73268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Switches */

2020-06-05:

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00:44:49 <esowiki> [[Proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73270&oldid=16530 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Setting variables */ cats
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02:50:20 <zzo38> Does Google Groups have cross-posting? I suspect that maybe it doesn't.
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04:07:05 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+3062) LS Basic is a dialect of BASIC which interprets sums of letters.
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04:09:26 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73272&oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+72) /* Arithmetic */
04:10:22 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73273&oldid=73272 * Simplemaker * (+97) 
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04:11:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73274&oldid=73215 * Simplemaker * (+15) /* L */
04:16:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73275&oldid=73273 * Simplemaker * (+198) 
04:18:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73276&oldid=73275 * Simplemaker * (-2) /* Obfuscated Version */
04:21:09 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73277&oldid=73276 * Simplemaker * (+794) 
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05:51:29 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73278&oldid=73238 * Shaman * (+3) /* Description */
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05:57:58 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73279&oldid=73278 * Shaman * (+312) 
06:01:24 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73280&oldid=73279 * Shaman * (+53) /* Description */
06:03:09 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73281&oldid=73280 * Shaman * (-4) 
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06:15:50 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73282&oldid=73281 * Yoel * (+93) 
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06:17:35 <esowiki> [[Nutes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73283&oldid=73282 * Yoel * (+21) /* See also */
06:26:08 <esowiki> [[Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73284&oldid=73188 * Yoel * (+176) 
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06:54:43 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73285 * Yoel * (+5479) Created page with "A '''Markov algorithm''', names after the Soviet mathematician Andrey Markov, Jr., is a string rewriting system that uses replacement rules to operate on a string of symbols...."
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07:12:31 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73286&oldid=73285 * Yoel * (-27) 
07:21:39 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73287&oldid=73286 * B jonas * (+10) /* See also */
07:24:15 <b_jonas> @tell arseniiv Unless an antipodan volunteers, you're the #esoteric Official Eclipse Observer for tonight (2020-06-05), on account of everyone else is too much to the west
07:24:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:25:22 <esowiki> [[1.1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73288&oldid=69605 * B jonas * (+21) 
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08:16:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73289&oldid=73237 * Yoel * (+5) 
08:30:43 <oren> is it possible to express the julia set or the mandelbrot set in heraldic blazon?
08:35:10 <oren> It would be easy to blazon the sierpinski carpet
08:40:46 <cpressey> I don't know but if you turn the Mandelbrot set on its side it looks a little like an entire heraldic achievement :)
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09:38:29 <wib_jonas> oren: hmm, is there a standard fractal recursion extension for heraldic blazon already, perhaps because there are coats of arms that mutually contain a small copy of each other?
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09:52:20 <int-e> fungot: help
09:52:20 <fungot> int-e: it's the truth, which i think is the best way
09:55:09 <Taneb> wib_jonas: mise en abyme?
09:56:06 <wib_jonas> Taneb: I tried to web search for recursive coats of arms and found that phrase, but apparently it just means that a section in the middle of a coat of arms is a different coat of arms, and haven't found an actually infinitely recursive example 
09:56:36 <Taneb> Aww#
09:58:43 <int-e> fungot: does this channel weird you out sometimes as well?
09:58:43 <fungot> int-e: that blogger also ircs on qemu if you want
09:58:58 <int-e> fungot: I'll take that as a yes.
09:58:58 <fungot> int-e: fnord/ fnord/ fnord and have scheme render it for you"
09:59:15 <int-e> fungot: Well, that's not very supportive.
09:59:15 <fungot> int-e: here is my error: error: attempt to apply non-procedure ' 2' 50 years ago)
09:59:31 <int-e> fungot: one more?
10:00:28 <int-e> Hmm, I thought the quota was 5 messages. Maybe I had one earlier and nobody talked to fungot in the meantime.
10:02:00 <wib_jonas> fungot: Brahms's "Hungarian dances" consists of how many tracks, which track is the most popular, why are the tracks with the low indexes the best, and is that deceptive false advertising like when you put the more fresh fruit on the top of the pile?
10:02:00 <fungot> wib_jonas: 1 cakeprophet: ps
10:02:26 <wib_jonas> int-e: there, now you have one more
10:03:01 <int-e> thanks, I don't know where I'd be without the resident psychotherapist :P
10:04:53 <wib_jonas> ^style
10:04:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
10:05:19 <int-e> `' semi-sentient
10:05:20 <HackEso> 1246) <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong  <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
10:06:52 <wib_jonas> nah, the "yes, i know" is an example of fungot's spambot style that I often see on irc or forums, the sort of statement that a bot could post basically anywhere. that's why I try not to react in chat when new people enter and say only something like "hi", nothing specifically relevant to the current topic or the topic of the chat room
10:06:52 <fungot> wib_jonas: i was wondering about that for now, evoli? or perhaps garbage? i
10:08:04 <wib_jonas> but fungot does often manage to give replies that do seem relevant to our topics, and those are the quotable ones that I enjoy. plus a different class of weird utterances that do seem like they come from a messed up chatbot yet are intrinsically funny for some reason.
10:08:04 <fungot> wib_jonas: you can access them by position. i wonder if i should connect it there. :-p help would be welcome :)
10:12:03 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1323 # this one, for example, is good because fungot's reply is directly relevant to the previous sentences in a way that seems to requires deep understanding
10:12:03 <fungot> wib_jonas: apparently ms also invented multiple level undo/ redo mechanism by which to extend it with support for concurrency.) didn't take much effort to come up with a nice beginner interactive environment.
10:12:07 <wib_jonas> no, not that one
10:12:07 <HackEso> 1323) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname         59  <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name?  <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
10:12:16 <wib_jonas> ^ that one
10:12:42 <shachaf> hi wib_jonas
10:13:56 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1194 # here's a worse example: it is a good joke, but not one that's particularly high context, the same reply could apply to many statements
10:13:57 <HackEso> 1194) <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need?  <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
10:14:45 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I said "new people". when they're already someone I've met I may react, because it's much less likely that they're a chatbot
10:14:59 <shachaf> Hmm?
10:15:18 <shachaf> Oh.
10:15:23 <shachaf> I didn't see that message. I was only saying hi.
10:18:28 * wib_jonas looks up the guide at https://xkcd.com/222/
10:18:31 <wib_jonas> hi shachaf
10:20:12 <shachaf> I wrote a small library for argument parsing in C.
10:25:09 <wib_jonas> shachaf: can you show it to us?
10:25:53 <shachaf> Yes, in a moment.
10:27:03 <int-e> "Can we C?"
10:29:43 <shachaf> wib_jonas: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
10:38:58 <wib_jonas> shachaf: that looks fine
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10:39:38 <shachaf> Yes, it's not earth-shattering, but maybe nicer to use than getopt_long.
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12:31:00 <shachaf> catern: Neato.
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14:24:32 <cpressey> I had this idea. ∀ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∧'s, and ∃ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∨'s, right? But ∧ and ∨ are just 2 of the 16 possible binary logical connectives. So there are at least 14 other possible quantifiers! But not all connectives are commutative like ∧ and ∨ are. For any of the non-commutative connectives, you'd need to
14:24:33 <cpressey> make it work on an ordered structure somehow.
14:25:18 <cpressey> But if you're OK with that, then the → quantifier looks to me as if it represents... mathematical induction... ?
14:46:59 <cpressey> The ↔ quantifier is commutative; if we notate it as [↔] then [↔]x.p(x) is equivalent to (∀x.p(x)) ∨ (∀x.¬p(x)) I think
14:49:06 <cpressey> The ⊕ connective (XOR) is also commutative. But, hmm. Maybe that's not enough.
14:53:13 <cpressey> It needs to be idempotent, is that it?
14:57:01 <cpressey> "Idempotent" isn't quite the right word, maybe "monotonic" is better.
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15:02:24 <arseniiv> cpressey: hm interesting but I
15:02:25 <arseniiv> oops
15:03:08 <arseniiv> …but I’m afraid there are strong no-go results re. this idea. For example I don’t think → qualifies
15:03:41 <arseniiv> I think first, the operation should be associative, and this denies us → and ↔
15:04:57 <arseniiv> associativity is absolutely needed when we want to define an operation on nonempty lists from an operation on pairs, likewise we need a neutral element to define the operation on empty lists
15:05:50 <arseniiv> hm also I hadn’t thought about operations on circular lists, it would be interesting, but that’s for another conversation
15:12:15 <arseniiv> now, why could ⊕ be a bad choice?.. hm at first it seems why not: it’s associative and has 0 as neutral element, all nice. Though it may be the case idempotence you named is after all the right restriction to add. It means it doesn’t matter how many times we accidentally count the same element in the underlying set, which is quite natural, though for example Σ doesn’t treat its domain that way. On the other hand it doesn’t tr
15:12:16 <arseniiv> eat it that way because usually we sum not over a set, but over a function’s range, which shouldn’t be considered a mere set then, as it allows taking any value a specific number of times, which a mere set doesn’t distinguish
15:12:51 <zzo38> shachaf: I think a problem with that is that it incorrectly outputs non-ASCII characters without checking the locale.
15:17:21 <arseniiv> one can also see that ¬∀ and ¬∃ can’t arise in such a way from some operation, pity. Now we see why ∀ and ∃ have their own symbols but ¬∀ and ∄ have at the best part derivative ones
15:20:28 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73291&oldid=68227 * Simplemaker * (+5) /* Copying values */
15:21:17 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73292&oldid=73291 * Simplemaker * (+7) /* Copying values */
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15:31:59 <cpressey> arseniiv: Oh gosh, is ↔ not associative? I think of it as "equals, except for truth values", and since = is associative... OK, I'll have to think about this more.
15:32:39 <cpressey> Well, ok, no, = isn't associative, we just use it in an abuse of notation where it looks associative: a = b = c
15:33:11 <cpressey> I managed to confuse that with transitive because of that
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15:37:48 <arseniiv> cpressey: that’s no big deal, though a long time ago when I tried to get myself into logic, I got confused by one book where due to a clumsy explanation of a ≡ b ≡ c ≡ … notation I thought that’s the same as ((a ≡ b) ≡ c) ≡ …
15:40:14 <arseniiv> hmmm I have a decent question about computational geometry of tesselations but I don’t know how to state it in brief to not confuse anyone more than necessary
15:56:04 <arseniiv> let’s say it this way: there are a couple of polygonal “prototype tiles” and a (finite) polygonal tesselation seed which is ultimately a set of “concrete tiles” glued to each other. We are to glue a prototype to the seed along an oriented edge of each of them. To do that, we find an euclidean transformation mapping that edge in the prototype to the edge in the seed, and applying that transformation to the prototype, getting a 
15:56:05 <arseniiv> new concrete tile. Using floating point arithmetic, this operation adds inaccuracies to the seed’s vertices more and more as we glue new tiles into it. But an ideal tesselation seed is a rigid construction, so there should be a way to recalculate vertices in all the concrete tiles for them to regain some accuracy. Which is the question; what do I have to do to do this?
15:58:43 <arseniiv> why this arises at all: I’m afraid if one makes a core in a form of big thin annulus, then there may be problems filling it inside, let alone there may be a problem closing the annulus in the first place
15:59:11 <cpressey> arseniiv: Can you represent each tile as a composition of the series of euclidean transformations that led up to it?
15:59:28 <arseniiv> or any other state when you glue tiles each time to the new tiles, so the error would accumulate
15:59:38 <arseniiv> cpressey: oh, interesting!
16:00:01 <arseniiv> but the error would accumulate anyway, wouldn’t it?
16:00:35 <arseniiv> maybe even more hm, though I’m not sure
16:01:15 <cpressey> Well, if the transformations themselves involve floating point, then yes, error would accumulate there, but could you represent them exactly somehow, with algebraic numbers?
16:01:39 <arseniiv> (storing already transformed points seems more useful for computing e. g. edge lengths and angles)
16:01:42 <cpressey> And only introduce floating point, and its error, at the end
16:03:00 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, I thought about “constructible numbers” like Q[√2][√(5+√2)] but they need much space and the algorithms are quite complex
16:03:34 <arseniiv> I realized only today one can use rigidity of the construction
16:05:36 <arseniiv> oh, also if you’re accidentally interested in numbers of that form, I’ll try to dig out an article with the algorithms
16:06:01 <arseniiv> I rewrote them in Mathematica so my code is unhelpful even to me as of now
16:06:18 <arseniiv> I didn’t even comment it as needed
16:06:45 <arseniiv> (I even don’t remember if it’s complete and working as it should, lol)
16:07:22 <cpressey> I know very little about computational geometry but your question was very similar to a discussion I remember having with someone many, many years ago.
16:07:41 <arseniiv> ah, I didn’t tell that I tried to prototype the thing a year or something ago, and then left it for a while, only yesterday to remember about why not again
16:08:22 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting! what you talked about?
16:09:11 <arseniiv> did you talk*
16:12:21 <cpressey> I think it was about animating a rotating cube, rotating it a small amount on each frame, and the person I was talking to was worried that floating point error on each frame would accumulate
16:13:00 <cpressey> This was the 90's
16:14:33 <cpressey> Long before we had GPUs to do all this stuff for us :)
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16:17:26 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting but that has some merit even now, as multiplying quaternions is better than multiplying rotation matrices
16:18:02 <arseniiv> like, there is an obvious sensible way to normalize a quaternion and not a simple one to “orthogonalize” a matrix
16:18:18 <arseniiv> also, quaternions allow SLERP
16:18:40 <arseniiv> I mean, quite easlily allow, vs. the matrices
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16:29:03 <arseniiv> though in applying a quaternion to a vector, one should be considerate and use an optimized procedure, not just make usual quaternion multiplication, which would be quite costly
16:29:03 <arseniiv> ah, and also for rotating many vectors in bunch, it’s better to convert q. to a matrix and use the latter, so matrices are useful at the end
16:29:03 <arseniiv> okay I spam the channel with googlable stuff sorry, though that’s a pretty neat stuff, I can’t get over it even if I don’t write 3D applications almost at all
16:29:03 <arseniiv> (and I intended to add a bit about logarithms, but IRC was wise to shut me out)
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16:29:52 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah! am I late?
16:30:24 <arseniiv> I didn’t know about an eclipse at all, is it lunar? I’ll go look
16:31:34 <arseniiv> though I have no good observation erm places, there are trees blocking the way the Moon usually is at that time
16:36:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: en.wikipedia says “It will be visible in most parts of Europe (except northern Scandinavia)”, well-well!
16:36:53 <arseniiv> also Stellarium doesn’t show any dimming, meh, do I want to see that kind of eclipse
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16:46:14 <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software?
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17:47:42 <shachaf> zzo38: But I like UTF-8.
17:48:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, if you want to output UTF-8 in the error message, you should probably first check the locale to ensure that it is UTF-8, and to output ASCII instead otherwise. (You could store those substrings in global variables, and initialize them based on the locale.)
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18:39:22 <olsner> heh, argument pa*r*sing, I read "a library for argument passing in C"
18:47:19 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73293&oldid=73277 * Simplemaker * (+83) 
19:03:59 <esowiki> [[Klon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73294&oldid=33133 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) cats + reorder sections
19:05:32 <esowiki> [[DOG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73295&oldid=23278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold title
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20:21:04 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73297&oldid=73293 * Simplemaker * (+10) /* See Also */
20:25:41 <esowiki> [[Dumbf*ck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73298&oldid=44185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 
20:32:42 <zzo38> I read the Wikipedia article about microtypography. I seem to remember someone mentioned that DVI is not compatible with microtypography, but actually it is capable of all of the things listed there, without needing any specials; the only exception is changing the widths of fonts, when you are not using a fixed set of font widths and instead allow a continuous range; this is the only thing of those that DVI doesn't do (although in my e
20:33:07 <esowiki> [[PESOIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73299&oldid=41869 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
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21:08:07 <rain1> I will check it out about microtypography
21:10:04 <arseniiv> <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software? => when I had Celestia installed, I think there was a thing to prognose eclispes at several solar system bodies (and on Earth), but now I don’t use Celestia
21:11:55 <int-e> I think it's "prognosticate".
21:12:26 <int-e> (Or just "predict")
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21:14:54 <shachaf> What do you think of the argument-parser-o-matic 16,000?
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21:15:13 <shachaf> Should I introduce more macros to make it less verbose and more magic?
21:15:21 <shachaf> Or get rid of macros entirely?
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21:23:57 <Mysteryhunter> thischannel is logged
21:24:01 <Mysteryhunter> http://esolangs.org/logs/stalker.html
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21:28:08 <int-e> . o O ( Amazing insight. )
21:28:23 <imode> big shocker that one.
21:28:35 <arseniiv> int-e: not “prognosize”?
21:28:53 <int-e> arseniiv: I actually looked it up.
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21:30:11 <int-e> Sometuimes the verb is derived from the noun and not the other way around, and this is one such case.
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21:31:02 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I believe you though I wanted to write “prognosize” still, as it came to my mind first :D
21:31:20 <arseniiv> > C16 from Medieval Latin prognōsticāre “to predict” => eh
21:31:22 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:39: error: lexical error at character 't'
21:31:43 <arseniiv> oh sorry poor lambdabot I always forget about that
21:32:12 <arseniiv> @botsnack -- does that affect anything and are comments parsed in here?
21:32:12 <lambdabot> :)
21:32:18 <int-e> arseniiv: A good indicator is that if there was a two or three syllable synonym for "predict", we'd see it more often. :)
21:32:33 <arseniiv> int-e: mmmaybe
21:33:21 <arseniiv> the joke is, “predict” didn’t come to my mind that time :′( for an obscure reason
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21:37:44 <arseniiv> I worry a bit that my oral speech may be degrading. Either I just speak not as much as needed, or it’s interference of much reading in English, or me noting it eagerly when it’s not actually that bad, especially when I sleep not enough before that day, or it’s really first signs of something
21:38:44 <arseniiv> compared to that, writing (at least not in English, where I still often need a dictionary to help with something) seems more or less normal
21:39:10 <arseniiv> my syntax is as heavy-handed as always, at least. No more, no less
21:39:21 <arseniiv> in this mode too
21:40:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I told you what I thought of it, at least. Well, part of it. You might add more macros if it can make the compiled program smaller and more efficient by doing so.
21:40:59 <shachaf> zzo38: I could stop using «» and use '' instead, but I'm only targeting systems that use UTF-8.
21:42:16 <shachaf> The macros are supposed to make it more convenient, not more efficient.
21:46:49 <zzo38> Yes, the macros should make it more convenient, but should not make it too much less efficient by doing so.
21:52:30 <int-e> arseniiv: heavy-handed, hmm. "It is with a heavy hand that I type these words."
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21:53:02 <arseniiv_> haha I’m an impostor
21:53:45 <int-e> very droll
21:54:40 <arseniiv_> of course the reality is not that interesting, I just forgot to rename myself before restarting the router
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21:55:41 <arseniiv> NOW I’m an impostor
21:56:22 <int-e> not anymore, now you're identified to services.
21:56:58 <arseniiv> I’m a proper impostor with a proper documentation, duh
21:57:13 <arseniiv> it wouldn’t suit me otherwise!
21:57:24 <int-e> imposterous
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21:59:18 <fizzie> . o O (What sort of things are postposterous things?)
21:59:20 <arseniiv> ah, that word I remember still
22:07:10 <arseniiv> tried to find that article about arithmetic in Q[…][…]… and as it was prognosticated, I hadn’t find it. There are just too many items and any sensible keyword resulted in failure. At least I’m not committed to use this arithmetic anyway, but it’d be nice to re-read about it, sigh
22:19:14 <int-e> arseniiv: those ... are mysterious
22:20:50 <arseniiv> int-e: ..?
22:21:05 <int-e> Q[...][...]...
22:21:10 <arseniiv> aaah
22:21:35 * int-e is not fluent in Unicode.
22:21:39 <arseniiv> I thought those … were a textual ellipsis
22:21:50 <int-e> Sure, but what do they stand for?
22:21:55 <arseniiv> ah, Unicode
22:22:08 <int-e> Q[pi][sqrt(3)][z]
22:22:39 <int-e> There are numerous things you could put there.
22:22:50 <int-e> Possibly some quotients as well.
22:24:10 <arseniiv> ah, yes, something like that, but in this case all that mess denotes a field defined inductively: either that (ordered) field is Q or it is F[√s] for F being that kind of field, s ∈ F, is positive and not a square
22:24:44 <int-e> So... some specific algebraic numbers.
22:24:47 <arseniiv> so we just add some square roots in succession
22:24:48 <arseniiv> yeah
22:24:53 <arseniiv> and real ones
22:25:14 <arseniiv> at that
22:25:29 <int-e> Oh so s > 0?
22:25:47 <arseniiv> yeah, s > 0 and not a square, I was to brief
22:25:57 <arseniiv> too
22:26:24 <arseniiv> now I’m making famous native-speaker typos, danb
22:26:27 <arseniiv> damn*
22:26:30 <int-e> Hmm, is that exciting in anyway... I guess the inverses need work.
22:27:29 <arseniiv> finding inverses is not hard, it’s just like in C or like what is done to 1/(5 + 7√3) to get rid of the radical in the denominator
22:27:35 <int-e> And if you have many square roots, the question of FFT-like speedups arises as well, hrm. Not a clue :)
22:27:39 <arseniiv> but finding square roots…
22:28:16 <int-e> Ah you want to close Q under field operations and sqrt().
22:28:27 <int-e> (of non-negative numbers.)
22:28:43 <int-e> Is this for geometry?
22:29:06 <arseniiv> also this arithmetic is very space-inefficient, so one needs to find representations in Q[…]… with as few brackets as possible, for each new result. Or it would result in a gigabytes of numbers
22:29:19 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah
22:29:47 <arseniiv> it’s one of the ways to make tesselation-y computations work for sure
22:29:55 <arseniiv> but I dislike this way
22:30:52 <arseniiv> I’ll push my luck with usual floating point, trying to come up with a way to recalculate point coordinates to make them more accurate each time that’s relevant
22:32:54 <arseniiv> as a conected tesselation chunk is rigid, increasing accuracy almost up to floating-point precision should be possible
22:33:13 <arseniiv> I presume in a way like those summation algorithms
22:34:01 <arseniiv> and, as that idea needs some sleeping on, bye
22:34:30 <int-e> . z Z ( good night )
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23:10:55 <imode> ah, the weekend is upon us.
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23:30:45 <imode> I've resolved to do a couple of things. one: build a minimum viable cycle rewriting system in C. two: build a compiler that compiles pseudo-assembly language into cycle rewriting rules. three: extend the C system to support built-in rules for I/O.
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2020-06-06:

00:02:17 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
00:02:27 <Antebrationist> Hello again.
00:03:45 <Antebrationist> Does anybody know of a Python single-function brainfuck interpreter; Namely, one which takes a string of "+-<>[]" as input, assumes all inputs using , to be 0 and outputs, as a string, the STDOUT of the program?
00:07:34 <shachaf> Taneb: I like the last eight octets of your IPv6 address.
00:07:44 <shachaf> Very oerjany. Maybe intentionally?
00:08:35 <shachaf> Hmm, that's a human who hasn't been around in a bit.
00:09:05 <shachaf> Several months, actually, hm.
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02:23:06 <tswett[m]> oerjan hasn't been?
02:39:41 <esowiki> [[]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73300&oldid=62279 * Voltage2007 * (+42) 
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05:02:12 <zzo38> I found a bug in Ghostscript with printobject, where sometimes it writes array elements in the wrong order.
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05:17:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:AC01010]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73301 * TwilightSparkle * (+196) Created page with "== Welcome, I guess ==  Welcome! Please sign your comments with four tildes: <pre>~~~~</pre>. ~~~~"
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06:12:54 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73302&oldid=72390 * TwilightSparkle * (+103) /* Easy */
06:22:23 <esowiki> [[1+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73303&oldid=68011 * TwilightSparkle * (+139) /* Commands and syntax */
06:23:58 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73304&oldid=73303 * TwilightSparkle * (+22) /* Undocumented instruction */
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09:06:02 <Taneb> shachaf: I don't know what you mean
09:18:13 <shachaf> Taneb: :aaaa:0:aaaa:0
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09:53:17 <b_jonas> fungot, what are the prime factors of 1536?
09:53:51 <fungot> b_jonas: ( translate ( german english) " fnord" meant " macros", but " they don't agree on events being a general solution where you gave the dictionary inside the function
09:55:42 <myname> 2 is definitely in there
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10:42:38 <fizzie> `factor 1536
10:42:39 <HackEso> 1536: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3
10:42:46 <fizzie> Yes, you could say that.
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11:55:20 <fizzie> @pl \d w -> f d >> t d w
11:55:20 <lambdabot> ap ((.) . (>>) . f) t
11:55:28 <fizzie> Hm, I don't think that's an improvement.
11:56:02 <fizzie> (Also it should've been >>= but that hardly matters.)
11:59:46 <olsner> @pl \d w -> f d >>= t d w
11:59:47 <lambdabot> ap ((.) . (>>=) . f) t
11:59:57 <olsner> indeed it didn't
12:13:04 <fizzie> Ugh. I wanted to do something XInput-related in my XMonad configuration, but the XMonad handleEventHook is in terms of Graphics.X11.Xlib.Extras.Event, which is a "processed" form of the raw XEvent and doesn't have support for extensions. It will just get turned into the fallback "AnyEvent", and all the interesting bits are discarded.
12:17:58 <shachaf> whoa, fizzie is doing Haskell?
12:18:14 <shachaf> I'm using i3 nowadays and it works pretty well. What a silly language Haskell is.
12:18:28 <fizzie> I strictly only ever touch it when fiddling with XMonad.
12:21:06 <fizzie> Now that I'm working from home, there's a lot more swapping of monitors for the work laptop, so I wrote a moderately clever and flexible AutoRandr module, which went pretty well. It talks to Xrandr directly, parses EDID data, and tries to find a matching configuration.
12:22:03 <fizzie> Inspired by that, I was now looking at also hooking in keyboard layout configuramation when XInput events happen, but that seems a little nastier. I may just fall back to the tiny "inputplug" program instead of integrating it to the window manager.
12:23:33 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2opR -- see, doesn't that look quite acceptable? 
12:24:38 <fizzie> (Okay, I did cheat a little in that I do the reconfiguring through the xrandr CLI, rather than talking to the extension directly. I promise there was a good reason for that, I just forgot what it was.)
12:24:58 <shachaf> I have a program that monitors keyboard layout change events and a bunch of other things: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/statustext.c
12:25:40 <shachaf> (It just prints text to the status bar, though.)
12:26:02 <shachaf> As of recently I got wireless headphones, and it doesn't detect when I turn them on or off, and keeps displaying the volume for the old device. I don't think the ALSA exposes the thing I want, so I might have to switch to pulseaudio.
12:26:27 <shachaf> But having written a small amount of pulseaudio code I'm really not looking forward to that.
12:26:56 <fizzie> I'm back to pulseaudio, after going through OSS -> ALSA -> pulseaudio -> ALSA -> pulseaudio so far.
12:27:32 <shachaf> That randrConfig looks quite acceptable, though there's no reason for it to be in the window manager, is there?
12:28:02 <fizzie> Not really, other than a perverse joy of nudging XMonad closer and closer to a DE.
12:28:38 <shachaf> I meant switching to the pulseaudio API for getting volume information.
12:28:43 <shachaf> I'm already using pulseaudio.
12:29:28 <fizzie> Oh, I see. Well, yeah. My volume control XMonad keybindings are now more or less defunct, because they were written for the ALSA API and would probably do the wrong thing.
12:29:42 <fizzie> (But there's a physical volume knob in the external USB DAC, which is the only audio output device I use, so it's kind of moot.)
12:30:09 <shachaf> I wrote a pulseaudio program to set the volume. It was a real maze of callbacks.
12:30:24 <shachaf> And that's just for the simplest task.
12:32:49 <shachaf> Man, I jammed up my C argument parser so you can specify things explicitly instead of parsing description strings.
12:32:57 <shachaf> This is more verbose but probably better?
12:34:05 <fizzie> Sounds plausible.
12:35:47 <shachaf> Now you specify arguments like MOP_OPT(&mop, .name = "verbose", .short_name = 'v', .help = "verbose mode") { printf("increasing verbosity\n"); }
12:36:28 <esowiki> [[1.1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73305&oldid=73288 * Hakerh400 * (+34) Fix typo and add interpreter
12:36:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: is there a way to give multiple alternative spellings/abbreviations for the long name? because I sort of think that long options are hard to design well without that.
12:36:41 <b_jonas> also that in most programs it's easier to just stick to short options
12:36:53 <shachaf> Hmm, not currently.
12:37:13 <fizzie> Do you have a `--helpfull` flag that's actually less helpful than `--help`? 
12:37:18 <shachaf> I could add that but I'm unlikely to use it.
12:37:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: how do you specify whether the option has an argument in that?
12:37:28 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73306&oldid=73156 * Hakerh400 * (+10) 
12:37:34 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm not planning to go the way of gflags.
12:37:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: Currently with .wants_optarg = true
12:38:07 <shachaf> See https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
12:38:08 <b_jonas> fungot: no, that probably uses the weird syntax --help --verbose
12:38:09 <fungot> b_jonas: if you make a file upload progress bar with rails and ajax things won't work, i mainly just idle on my other computer has 32 megs of ram
12:38:16 <b_jonas> argh
12:38:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: ^^
12:38:46 <fizzie> fungot: Where have you been hiding another computer in? 
12:38:46 <fungot> fizzie: uh. openoffice help neglects to list one part of the course, and one mutex ( for committing optimistic concurrency logs)
12:38:56 <fizzie> So evasive.
12:39:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: I mean, except in some programs that really have a lot of options, the point of long options is just that it may be easier to remember/guess the option name, but that works well only if the program accepts multiple alternatives
12:39:44 <shachaf> No, the point of long options is that it's easier to read an invocation of a command that uses them.
12:39:54 <b_jonas> hmm ok
12:40:08 <fizzie> Now I'm wondering if there are many programs that will accept any unique abbreviation of an argument.
12:40:17 <shachaf> I mean, maybe the thing you said is also the point, but I don't really want people to be guessing options.
12:40:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: sadly yes
12:40:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: and that can cause backward compatibility failure when a later version adds an option
12:40:41 <shachaf> There are some option parsing libraries that will take any unambiguous prefix of a long option. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
12:40:47 <shachaf> For the reason b_jonas said.
12:41:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: gnu's getopt_long actually does that by default
12:41:20 <shachaf> whoa, so it does!
12:41:24 <shachaf> I somehow didn't know that.
12:41:38 <b_jonas> silently
12:41:40 <shachaf> `` /bin/ls --versi
12:41:41 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \  \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:41:48 <fizzie> Heh, I wasn't expecting it to be *that* common.
12:41:52 <b_jonas> is that version sort?
12:42:00 <b_jonas> like ls -v ?
12:42:14 <fizzie> `` /bin/ls --ve
12:42:15 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \  \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:42:44 <fizzie> `` /bin/ls --r
12:42:45 <HackEso> ​/bin/ls: option '--r' is ambiguous; possibilities: '--reverse' '--recursive' \ Try '/bin/ls --help' for more information.
12:42:47 <shachaf> I don't know why /bin/ls, given that ls isn't a shell builtin.
12:42:55 <fizzie> Yeah, I just copied it from you.
12:43:01 <b_jonas> ``` type ls
12:43:01 <shachaf> I mean I don't know why I did it.
12:43:02 <HackEso> ls is /hackenv/bin/ls
12:43:03 <b_jonas> ^ that's why
12:43:05 <b_jonas> also with sed
12:43:13 <shachaf> Oh, that's a good point!
12:43:15 <b_jonas> and I keep writing /bin/cat because I'm afraid that someone will override that too
12:43:30 <fizzie> `` ls --ve
12:43:31 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \  \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:43:34 <b_jonas> esolang has a lot of incompatible shadowed commands, they're annoying, I hate them
12:43:44 <b_jonas> ``` /bin/w
12:43:45 <HackEso> bash: /bin/w: No such file or directory
12:43:50 <b_jonas> ``` /usr/bin/w
12:43:50 <fizzie> I don't know if they're *that* incompatible.
12:43:51 <HackEso> ​ 12:43:50 up 0 min,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER     TTY      FROM             LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU WHAT
12:43:59 <fizzie> Well, okay, that one definitely is.
12:44:11 <b_jonas> that's not the worst one
12:44:38 <shachaf> `5 /usr/bin/w
12:44:42 <HackEso> 1/2: 12:44:39 up 0 min,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER     TTY      FROM             LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU WHAT \  12:44:39 up 0 min,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER     TTY      FROM             LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU WHAT \  12:44:39 up 0 min,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER     TTY      FROM             LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU WHAT \  12:44:39 up 0 min,  0 users,  load avera
12:45:43 <fizzie> How wise.
12:45:55 <fizzie> `? wise
12:45:56 <HackEso> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
12:46:12 <shachaf> If Unix commands didn't want to be shadowed, they shouldn't have occupied such prime namespace.
12:46:17 <b_jonas> besides ls and sed, cc is also one that annoys me
12:46:19 <shachaf> Why is that in wisdom?
12:46:23 <b_jonas> yes, w is excusable
12:46:31 <shachaf> I kind of want to delete it but I feel like maybe I tried that before and someone reverted it.
12:46:43 <shachaf> I added it originally.
12:47:01 <shachaf> `` type cc
12:47:02 <HackEso> cc is /hackenv/bin/cc
12:47:08 <shachaf> `cbt cc
12:47:08 <fizzie> It does make me smile, which from the KonMari perspective suggests it should stay there? 
12:47:09 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\n/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
12:47:33 <b_jonas> admittedly I installed /hackenv/bin/hello which also shadows a gnu utility incompatibly
12:47:48 <shachaf> whoa, what's bin/cc about? Bizarro mode 12,000.
12:48:02 <b_jonas> `whatis cc
12:48:07 <HackEso> cc(1hackeso) - no description
12:48:31 <fizzie> It's like a very poor man's copy of ##c's `,cc`, I think.
12:48:51 <shachaf> Should I actually do help autogeneration or is it not worth the trouble?
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12:50:44 <b_jonas> I can understand ones like man and wget 
12:50:48 <b_jonas> oh yeah, paste is another offender
12:50:50 <b_jonas> `type -a paste
12:50:51 <HackEso> type? No such file or directory
12:50:54 <b_jonas> ``` type -a paste
12:50:55 <HackEso> paste is /hackenv/bin/paste \ paste is /usr/bin/paste
12:50:57 <b_jonas> ^ no relations to each other
12:51:10 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73307&oldid=65707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
12:51:17 <b_jonas> `whatis nooodl:
12:51:18 <HackEso> nooodl:(1hackeso) - noooooo description
12:51:45 <b_jonas> have I sleepadded that, or has someone else been using addwhatis?
12:55:35 <b_jonas> `run hg cat -r 11847 /hackenv/share/whatis | grep -i ooo # I sleepadded that
12:55:36 <HackEso> nooodl:(1hackeso) - noooooo description \ rnooodl(1hackeso) - no description
12:55:41 <b_jonas> I've no idea what that actually does
12:56:06 <int-e> `nooodl nooodl
12:56:07 <HackEso> nooodl? No such file or directory
12:56:28 <b_jonas> int-e: it has a colon
12:56:38 <fizzie> `` echo nooodl | rnooodl
12:56:39 <HackEso> nooooodl
12:56:42 <fizzie> `` echo nooodl | rnooodl
12:56:43 <HackEso> noooooooodl
12:56:50 <b_jonas> `nooodl: hello
12:56:51 <HackEso> hello
12:57:02 <b_jonas> `run hello | nooodl:
12:57:03 <HackEso> No output.
12:57:06 <b_jonas> `run hello 
12:57:07 <HackEso> hello, world
12:57:12 <b_jonas> ``` type -a nooodl:
12:57:13 <HackEso> noooooooodl: is /hackenv/bin/nooooodl:
12:57:22 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/nooodl:
12:57:23 <HackEso> ​ELF............>.....�(......@....... �..........@.8..@.........@.......@.......@.......h......h...................�......�......�...........................................................�......�..................... ....... ....... ......9......9.....................`.......`.......`......�......�....................��......��......��......P......�...................��......��......��......�.......�...
12:57:28 <fizzie> The colon version seems to be not particularly useful.
12:57:34 <int-e> `` echo noodle | rnooodl
12:57:36 <HackEso> noodle
12:57:38 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73308&oldid=68858 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) /* References */ rm redtemplate
12:57:46 <fizzie> You need at least three o's to trigger that.
12:57:47 <int-e> Does it need three o's to trigger?
12:57:48 <shachaf> `` ls -l /hackenv/bin/nooodl:
12:57:49 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 9 Jul  8  2017 /hackenv/bin/noooodl: -> /bin/echo
12:58:04 <b_jonas> `nooodl: hellooo wooorld nooodl
12:58:07 <HackEso> hellooo wooorld nooodl
12:58:15 <int-e> I thought it was two, so that a simple noodle would already be enlarged.
12:58:28 <shachaf> `dobg rnooodl
12:58:30 <HackEso> 8518:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 <shachäf> sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016
12:58:31 <b_jonas> it's three, luckily. and I hate it even this way.
12:58:54 <b_jonas> I hate it because it makes ``` not output partial lines after a timeout
12:58:57 <fizzie> The colon thing is kind of odd. I guess it does "integrate" with the rnooodl call in `` though.
12:59:01 <b_jonas> that could be fixed by a better program, but ouch
12:59:12 <shachaf> Remember when rnooodl would take any letter rather than just os? That was so good.
12:59:36 <fizzie> `` nooodl: This is a thing that should get rnooodlified. Maybe best to add another nooodle to be sure.
12:59:37 <HackEso> This is a thing that should get rnooooooooodlified. Maybe best to add another nooodle to be sure.
12:59:46 <b_jonas> we should just ln -s /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/rnooodl
13:00:13 <shachaf> `dobg nooodl:
13:00:20 <HackEso> 2787:2013-04-23 <noood̈l> ln -s /bin/echo bin/nooodl:
13:00:26 <shachaf> Ah. Well then.
13:01:35 <fizzie> I support getting rid of that one, and also rnoooodl in general if you feel like it, but I'm also tolerant enough of nonsense to not mind it's there.
13:02:27 <int-e> as long as it doesn't touch multiocular o's.
13:02:40 <fizzie> Also annoying, I found what I think is likely to be a copy of the Minecraft world some #esoteric people also contributed to, but couldn't immediately figure out how to convert it to something that could be viewed (it's pretty old), and now I've lost it *again*.
13:03:10 <fizzie> I distinctly remember thinking "well, this is not the optimal place to put this, it might get lost, but I'll get back to this the next day so it's probably fine".
13:03:27 <shachaf> Uh oh.
13:04:16 <b_jonas> what I dislike is that `` and ``` uses rnooodl
13:04:21 <b_jonas> I'd be fine with `w using it
13:04:31 <esowiki> [[Lazy expander]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73309&oldid=69877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe
13:04:48 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73310&oldid=66600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:00 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73311&oldid=67947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:05 <int-e> . o O ( b_jonas is not a pastafarian )
13:05:28 <esowiki> [[Happy Fantasy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73312&oldid=71415 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:44 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73313&oldid=71446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:46 <shachaf> Oh man, I gotta get back to my SAT solver.
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13:06:08 <shachaf> This is Luby restarts. Do you like this?
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13:07:40 <shachaf> Uh oh.
13:07:42 <shachaf> OK.
13:08:33 <b_jonas> I should at least rewrite rnooodl to make it able to output anything immediately, except in the one case where the input ends in "noood" or "Noood" in which case it should use a small timeout to wait for a possible "l" 
13:08:52 <b_jonas> and even in that case the output would be missing only the trailing "d"
13:09:04 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73314&oldid=72961 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Program structure */ specify
13:09:08 <shachaf> `cbt rnooodl
13:09:09 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
13:09:29 <int-e> b_jonas: is that even possible? Isn't the bigger problem that a lot of programs start buffering when writing to a pipe?
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13:09:43 <int-e> `` stty
13:09:44 <HackEso> stty: 'standard input': Inappropriate ioctl for device
13:09:50 <int-e> `stty
13:09:51 <HackEso> stty: 'standard input': Inappropriate ioctl for device
13:10:00 <int-e> Maybe it's not an issue for HackEso.
13:10:06 <b_jonas> int-e: that certainly happens, yes, but I often run commands that I write with ``` and in those I can flush the output explicitly
13:11:21 <b_jonas> ``
13:11:22 <HackEso> 436) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
13:11:29 <b_jonas> whoa, I didn't know `` with no args did that 
13:12:01 <fizzie> "To many, high-end Ethernet cables are still a controversial subject. While plenty of experiments have proven to me that their influence is not imaginary, it sure is annoying that, so far, we have not been able to come up with a proper scientific explanation for why these cables can alter the sound."
13:12:28 <fizzie> (In a review for a 750€ Ethernet cable.)
13:13:21 <int-e> Yeah it's pipes anyway.
13:13:25 <fizzie>  "There are some theories, though, and the one I personally think is plausible is that it is not the music stream itself that is affected but rather the influence of noise that travels along and subsequently influences circuits downstream."
13:13:44 <int-e> `stat /proc/self/1
13:13:45 <HackEso> stat: cannot stat '/proc/self/1': No such file or directory
13:13:46 <fizzie> This is starting to sound like water memory.
13:13:50 <int-e> `stat /proc/self/fd/1
13:13:51 <HackEso> ​  File: /proc/self/fd/1 -> pipe:[221] \   Size: 64        Blocks: 0          IO Block: 1024   symbolic link \ Device: 4h/4dInode: 224         Links: 1 \ Access: (0300/l-wx------)  Uid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN)   Gid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \ Modify: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \ Change: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \  Birth: -
13:14:34 <b_jonas> maybe the people who buy expensive Ethernet cables also buy more expensive sound equipment?
13:14:39 <fizzie> There's an intentional pipe in there.
13:15:26 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah, audiophilantry is highly esoteric.
13:15:44 <int-e> (audiophily is the proper word)
13:16:11 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L199
13:16:12 <int-e> audophilia may be better
13:16:27 <fizzie> I don't quite remember all the rationale.
13:17:03 <fizzie> I think the thinking was, some programs might switch to output formats more friendly for IRC when piped.
13:17:30 <fizzie> But it's a controversial topic.
13:18:05 <int-e> Hmm, plausible enough reason.
13:18:38 <int-e> I don't mind, I just didn't know (or quite possibly, forgot because it hardly ever matters).
13:18:44 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73315&oldid=73308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:24:34 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73316&oldid=71933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Addition */
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14:07:25 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73317&oldid=73302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) 
14:08:49 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73318&oldid=73300 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) unpipe cross-namespace link +Cats
14:09:56 <esowiki> [[TM operator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73319&oldid=45594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
14:41:26 <esowiki> [[TWiRQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73320&oldid=16260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) 
14:42:40 <esowiki> [[TWiRQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73321&oldid=73320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) deadlang
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15:42:47 <int-e> rain1: Get off my lawn! (It just started raining outside ;-) (And actually there's pavement there but who wants to be picky.))
15:43:25 <rain1> lol
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17:35:09 <b_jonas> let me try to rephrase. fungot, what are the *primal* factors of 1536 ?
17:35:31 <fungot> b_jonas: it's like deja vu all over again. if you do randomization, then why bother making this at all
17:35:38 <zzo38> I expect if Ethernet cables alter the sound, it might be due to interference which causes some data to get lost. So, it might have to do with the codec.
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17:36:11 <zzo38> But I don't know if that is true or not, anyways.
17:36:25 <b_jonas> or with a driver on Win32
17:37:49 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't think the driver on Win32 has to do with the physical cable.
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17:55:38 <zzo38> I am trying to fix a bug in Ghostscript, having to do with the printobject and writeobject operators.
18:00:21 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Also annoying, I found what I think is likely to be a copy of the Minecraft world some #esoteric people also contributed to, but couldn't immediately figure out how to convert it to something that could be viewed (it's pretty old), and now I've lost it *again*. => oh
18:00:32 <arseniiv> what version was it approximately if you remember?
18:01:35 <zzo38> I posted the bug report, but have gotten no reply yet; I am trying to see if I can fix it by myself, although since I have not signed the Artifex contribution agreement, I cannot contribute patches. They may eventually fix it, but before then, anyone who uses it must apply the patches by themself. The printobject and writeobject operators are mostly implemented in PostScript, so it can be patched without needing to recompile Ghostscrip
18:05:03 <fizzie> arseniiv: I imagine somewhere around 1.1.
18:08:14 <fizzie> I found something that might be it, and it's timestamped Oct 12 2011, so I guess that's actually still beta 1.9 then.
18:11:52 <fizzie> The files are region/r.X.Y.mcr, which apparently definitely dates it to >= beta 1.3, < 1.2.1.
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18:30:10 <fizzie> "This world was last played in vesrion unknown; you are on version 1.15.2." Well, at least it's going to attempt to convert it.
18:31:58 <arseniiv> <fizzie> I found something that might be it, and it's timestamped Oct 12 2011, so I guess that's actually still beta 1.9 then. => wow. I think I played only since 1.3 or something
18:32:19 <fizzie> Well, it loaded something.
18:32:24 <fizzie> I don't recognize the place though.
18:33:08 <arseniiv> I’d think there would be something flat and redstony
18:33:40 <fizzie> The game also keeps on bugging out a little, every few seconds it changes my view 90 degrees.
18:34:30 <arseniiv> :o
18:35:11 <fizzie> Actually it only happens if I move the mouse around. Weird.
18:35:53 <fizzie> I can see that triangular staircase that goes all the way to the top of the sky, which I *think* was part of the shared thing.
18:36:12 <fizzie> There wasn't anything particularly #esoteric about this, by the way, it was mostly just random chatting and silliness.
18:36:26 <arseniiv> hehe
18:37:04 <fizzie> There's also the incomplete zeppelin that I kinda-sorta remember.
18:37:54 <fizzie> (It'd be easier to navigate if I could look around without aiming directly upwards or downwards every few seconds.)
18:38:24 <arseniiv> does reloading it help?
18:38:31 <fizzie> Well, I found a sign saying "<- civilization", I guess that's promising.
18:40:14 <fizzie> Also another street sign saying "Gregor's water castle", so this was *definitely* the #esoteric-associated one.
18:40:26 <arseniiv> . o O ( and there is a portal right into Sid Meier’s Civilization )
18:45:20 <fizzie> Well, it has the same bug in a fresh newly created world, so I guess that's "fine".
18:46:59 <fizzie> https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-144107 maybe.
18:48:36 <fizzie> The Rwa Input -> OFF workaround seems to have worked.
18:58:18 <fizzie> Heh, the nether portal's translucent sheets are 90 degrees off. As in, if the portal frame is oriented like ----, the translucent sheets are ||. Looks pretty silly.
18:58:47 <fizzie> Also, the ladders no longer work.
18:59:08 <fizzie> We used to have alternating ladder/torch/ladder/torch and that was good enough for climbing, but apparently no longer.
18:59:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: play a human or elf character instead of a goblin or dwarf or halfling
18:59:53 <b_jonas> then you can reach the ladder
19:03:01 <fizzie> I just respawned.
19:03:18 <fizzie> But I've found the Libmarine Subrary, and the Subree, and Vorpal's place.
19:03:36 <fizzie> And some fish, which I'm pretty sure didn't exist back then.
19:03:53 <fizzie> And some minecart stuff that almost certainly no longer works.
19:04:30 <int-e> . o O ( But where's the Tomb of the Jabberwacky? )
19:04:40 <arseniiv> <fizzie> We used to have alternating ladder/torch/ladder/torch and that was good enough for climbing, but apparently no longer. => economical :D
19:05:23 <zzo38> I have a list such as [1 2 [[3] [4] [[5] [6]] [7]] 8 [9] 10 [[11]] [12 13]] and need to convert to binary format such that each element of the list is stored consecutively; numbers store themself, while if the element is another list, it consists of a pointer to the beginning of the sublist and the length of the sublist (numbers and sublist pointers have the same length).
19:05:45 <zzo38> Furthermore, it should be streamed, so that you do not have to go back and patch the data with the pointers.
19:05:53 <zzo38> Do you know how to do this properly?
19:06:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you distinguish between a number and a list then?
19:06:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: The data type is also stored in each element. (There is the type, length, and value; the "length" field is not used for numbers.)
19:07:02 <zzo38> Actually, there is a description of the format here: http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format
19:07:08 <b_jonas> ah
19:08:06 <zzo38> Ghostscript has an implementation; its algorithm uses streaming like I mentioned, but enters incorrect pointers when you write nested arrays like my example.
19:09:33 <b_jonas> j-bot: 1
19:09:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1
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19:13:01 <zzo38> Do you understand this?
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19:13:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but I don't want to think of how to sovle it now
19:14:00 <zzo38> The file called Resource/Init/gs_btokn.ps contains the implementation that Ghostscript uses (except the implementation of .bosobject which is written in C)
19:24:37 <fizzie> Beta 1.5: "The player can no longer climb ladders spaced every other block."
19:24:50 <fizzie> Looks like it was older than I thought.
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20:03:01 <esowiki> [[TFNP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73322 * Hakerh400 * (+6462) TFNP
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20:06:03 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73323 * Hakerh400 * (+6462) TFNP
20:06:23 <esowiki> [[TFNP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73324&oldid=73322 * Hakerh400 * (-6462) Blanked the page
20:07:26 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73325&oldid=73306 * Hakerh400 * (+37) /* Articles */ TFNP
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20:19:59 <arseniiv> suppose we know z0, w0, z1 = r z0 + s, w1 = r w1 + s all complex, and we want to find r, s more or less accurately using floating point. I take r = (z1 − w1) / (z0 − w0), this seems to be the only way, but with s, it seems s = ((z1 + w1) − r (z0 + w0)) / 2 should be a tad more accurate than z1 − r z0 (or w1 − r w0). Is that founded?
20:21:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73326&oldid=73323 * Hakerh400 * (-22) Fix typos
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20:51:43 <fizzie> The fungot outage is due to http://ix.io/2orY which doesn't sound great.
20:53:54 <esowiki> [[Treeng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73327&oldid=69371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) 
21:14:03 <imode> that ain't good.
21:14:23 <imode> hard drive failure looks like.
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21:20:13 <zzo38> I thought of one idea (which I will try a bit later), which is to make a temporary dictionary to record the offset of each array while they are being counted, or to store the offset in the operand stack together with the arrays. However, then it might fail if there are multiple references to the same array, unless I compensate for that too, by checking if the offset has already been recorded, and to skip if it has already been written.
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21:29:20 <zzo38> (I don't know if it will work anyways; I have not tried it.)
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22:26:55 <fizzie> "[sde] 0 4096-byte logical blocks: (0 B/0 B)"
22:27:00 <fizzie> That's a very small drive.
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22:35:33 <imode> ruh roh
22:37:16 <fizzie> At least once I'd like to be retiring a hard drive in a way that I could just run scrub on it, instead of my usual half-assed data recovery mitigations (disassemble the drive, break the circuit board, use a metal file to scrub the platters, throw them away one by one in separate garbage bags).
22:45:40 <int-e> that's no fun
22:46:44 <zzo38> The method I described using the temporary dictionary seems to be working.
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22:50:51 <fizzie> Another odd thing is, I've got in my backup script a thing that checks (via D-Bus) that org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.IdleHint is true, and .IdleSinceHint >= 2 hours. It used to work, but now it's started to consider the system to be never idle, and I have no idea how that value gets derived.
22:55:11 <fizzie> (All I know is it's systemd-logind that's providing that service, somehow.)
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23:14:37 <fizzie> Ohh, I think I figured it out. Amazing.
23:23:29 <int-e> mm
23:34:27 <fizzie> For the record: I have a hotkey for a "terminal with a screen in it", and that somehow had a leftover from a previous login session started from within it. Or something along those lines. At least previously D-Bus introspection was showing a leftover "non-idle" session in "closing" state, now it's gone.
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2020-06-07:

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01:51:19 <esowiki> [[Pxem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73328&oldid=71673 * YamTokTpaFa * (+148) /* External Links */
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01:59:22 <Antebrationist> Hello once more.
01:59:36 <Antebrationist> I have a question for all of you geniuses on here.
02:00:04 <Antebrationist> How many brainfuck programs exist which output exactly 50 characters within 256 instructions?
02:00:53 <Antebrationist> I've been searching for them with a quasi brute-force approach, but I've found almost 17k programs that do so.
02:02:23 <Antebrationist> I'll post a sprunge of them when it reaches 20k.
02:17:47 <fizzie> If I understood the question right, and did the math right, there are at least 5327151263612113856592028031288357293732322332076200467262309800346394628426291212883947264300775921573593383740227957048726152605949525557473303467998398691978171103221141995520 boring such programs.
02:17:57 <Antebrationist> Wow.
02:18:09 <Antebrationist> How on earth did you work that out?
02:18:46 <fizzie> That was (256 choose 50 * 4^(256 - 50), the number of 256-character programs that contain 50 .s and an arbitrary sequence of <>+-, and no loops.
02:18:59 <zzo38> Yes, I figured the same thing as a minimum bound.
02:19:00 <fizzie> s/50/50)/
02:19:08 <Antebrationist> Okay, thanks.
02:19:13 <fizzie> But as said, those are all pretty boring programs.
02:19:15 <zzo38> (Except that I haven't actually calculated it, but you have done.)
02:19:37 <Antebrationist> I think there's a lot more though.
02:20:06 <Antebrationist> Let x be a plus or minus symbol, and take programs of the following form.
02:20:07 <zzo38> Yes, there are probably more than that; these ones are only the ones without loops.
02:20:41 <Antebrationist> some chain of x [????]
02:20:59 <Antebrationist> the ???? can be .xxx x.xx xx.x or xxx.
02:21:01 <fizzie> Yes, there are many, many more, it's just much harder to calculate how many.
02:22:32 <Antebrationist> http://sprunge.us/um1R8P has just over 20k of the small ones.
02:23:52 <zzo38> Do you use the printobject and writeobject commands in PostScript (if you use PostScript at all)?
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02:42:21 <Antebrationist> What do you think of my sprunge?
02:46:31 <zzo38> I looked at the first few.
02:46:47 <zzo38> At least, it explain better what you meant, I suppose.
02:47:05 <Antebrationist> Yeah. I'm using infinite tape, unbounded cells.
02:49:51 <Antebrationist> I've also solved the upper bound, but most of these will be invalid.
02:50:25 <Antebrationist> Actually, I know a way to find how many brainfuck programs of length x are valid, so I'll run it for 256.
02:52:11 <Antebrationist> There are 155251809230070893514897948846250255525688601711669661113905203802605095268637688633087840882864647795048773069713107320617158
02:52:32 <Antebrationist> Not sure why it formatted like that.
02:53:17 <Antebrationist> 1552518092300708935148979488462502555256886017116696611139052038026050952686376886330878408828646477950487730697131073206171580044114814391444287275041181139204454976020849905550265285631598444825262999193716468750892846853816057856
02:53:30 <Antebrationist> That's the number.
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04:59:20 <esowiki> [[Hexar]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73329&oldid=66266 * Voltage2007 * (-199) categories might be inaccurate
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06:01:31 <zzo38> I played Pokemon card today, and my opponent won by tossing three coins; they needed at least two heads to win, and got two heads. If they had not won, then I would have won because I had the correct cards to win in my hand. So, that was a 50% chance to won or lose. Sometimes, that is what happens; that is how this game is doing.
06:09:31 <myname> if it's a 50% chance, why not just throw one coin?
06:11:06 <zzo38> Because of the effects of the cards. My card had 60 HP, their card had an attack which says 40 + flip a coin for each water energy attached to this card and add 10 for each heads. We each needed to knock out only one opponent's card to win.
06:11:15 <zzo38> That's why we used three coins rather than justo ne.
06:20:22 <zzo38> Someone mentioned that they needed to compare two different PNG files to see if the picture is the same, and that they could use stb_image and write such a program in fifty lines of code. But if I was needing to do that, I would instead use a command such as:   cmp <(pngff < file1.png) <(pngff < file2.png)   This is an advantage that farbfeld has over Netpbm (that same pictures are always the same data).
06:27:15 <zzo38> For the Pokemon card game, I used Go stones to mark the damage. If someone else is playing Pokemon card, is that what you use?
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06:45:05 <zzo38> (It is probably possible to compare pictures with ImageMagick too.)
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08:36:30 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambooripad_order
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12:52:49 <arseniiv> hi
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13:13:34 <fizzie> Oh, had forgotten fungot doesn't autostart.
13:13:34 <fungot> fizzie: i have no idea how it works
13:13:39 <fizzie> :)
13:16:56 <b_jonas> [ 200*12*0.0254
13:16:56 <j-bot> b_jonas: 60.96
13:37:54 <fizzie> Sounds quite imperial-metric.
13:38:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, 12*0.0254 is a foot
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13:39:14 <fizzie> It did seem like something of that kind was afoot, yes.
13:39:31 <b_jonas> those are the only conversions I know off the top of my head, I only know very bad approximations for the mile, pound, ounces etc
13:39:46 <b_jonas> luckily the internet knows the exact values
13:39:54 <fizzie> 25.4mm for an inch is also the only one I remember.
13:40:11 <b_jonas> oh wait, I think I also know the Fahrenheit to Celsius coefficients
13:40:19 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/f2c # these
13:40:22 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/f2c: No such file or directory
13:40:24 <b_jonas> um
13:40:29 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/ftoc 
13:40:30 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ $f=0+$ARGV[0]; printf"%.2f°F = %.2f°C\n",$f,($f-32)*5/9;
13:40:32 <b_jonas> those, yes
13:40:48 <fizzie> I only ever remember the 32 of those.
13:43:08 <b_jonas> the linear factor is simple, it's the same as the aspect ratio of the sides of my home monitor, as opposed to the more narrow aspect ratio of the more common monitors such as the smaller ones I have to use at work
13:53:51 <fizzie> Hmm, I don't think I've heard of... 9:5? 18:10? 
13:54:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, 1920x1200 pixels, each pixel is a square
13:54:40 <fizzie> That's 16:10.
13:54:46 <fizzie> Or 8:5.
13:54:49 <b_jonas> oh wait
13:54:54 <b_jonas> ok I confused myself
13:56:13 <fizzie> . o O (Is there a word for "mnemonic" except that it makes you remember something wrong?)
13:57:03 <int-e> It's still a menomonic, isn't it.
13:57:16 <int-e> modulo the typo.
13:57:49 <fizzie> [noun] 1. mnemonic -- (a device (such as a rhyme or acronym) used to aid recall) [adj] 1. mnemonic, mnemotechnic, mnemotechnical -- (of or relating to or involved the practice of aiding the memory; "mnemonic device")
13:57:59 <fizzie> Well, maybe.
13:58:18 <b_jonas> dunno, call it a nmenomic maybe
14:05:33 <fizzie> An anemonic. No, that's already something.
14:12:02 <int-e> I guess the question is whether "mindless" has a nice translation into Greek that starts with mne-... then you could add -ic to that.
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14:19:34 <esowiki> [[Hexar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73330&oldid=73329 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) 
14:25:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Demonthos *  New user account
14:34:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73331&oldid=73254 * Demonthos * (+225) /* Introductions */
14:40:14 <esowiki> [[Emblia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73332&oldid=70458 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) rm redlink
14:59:51 <esowiki> [[Countercall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73333&oldid=68889 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) cat /* See also */
15:05:25 <esowiki> [[Skastic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73334&oldid=52982 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) stub + cat
15:07:55 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73335&oldid=54919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Sample programs */ quine
15:08:14 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73336&oldid=73335 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ cat
15:08:36 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73337&oldid=73336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
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16:31:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Misterblue28 *  New user account
16:34:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73338&oldid=73331 * Misterblue28 * (+203) 
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17:22:43 <esowiki> [[Piquant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73339 * Misterblue28 * (+2398) Created page with "'''Piquant''' is an esoteric programming language, in which all code blocks are treated as conditionally selectable states. == Overview == Piquant has a one-dimensional array..."
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17:23:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73340&oldid=73274 * Misterblue28 * (+14) /* P */
17:39:16 <esowiki> [[Piquant]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73341&oldid=73339 * Misterblue28 * (+232) /* Example programs */
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17:42:47 <esowiki> [[Piquant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73342&oldid=73341 * Misterblue28 * (+42) /* Overview */
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18:53:27 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73343&oldid=73326 * Hakerh400 * (+4578) 
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19:07:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73344&oldid=73343 * Hakerh400 * (+29) 
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19:53:02 <int-e> fungot: is software evil?
19:53:02 <fungot> int-e: to use an interpreter: interpreter program note: program can be the best
19:53:24 <int-e> fungot: I don't like that answer, where do I change it?
19:53:24 <fungot> int-e: what difference does it make
19:56:25 <imode> hahahahahahaha.
19:59:47 <int-e> (Evil software: I accidently clicked the "call" button in the telegram client (linux desktop). So I looked for the option to disable that button. Seems there is none. Not even a confirmation dialog.)
20:03:02 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know what this telegram client is, but good luck
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20:24:47 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73345 * Demonthos * (+2106) Created page with "== the idea ==  Anti-array is a programming language without arrays or stacks.  Instead of either, it allows you to interpret a string as code. This allows you to programmatic..."
20:28:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73346&oldid=73340 * Demonthos * (+17) /* A */
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21:09:12 <arseniiv> int-e: try to make a group, even if just with another person. I looked at a group of three and there’s no call button
21:09:42 <arseniiv> (in a group of nine, too, but I thought maybe there’s just too many people)
21:09:59 <arseniiv> though that’s about a windows client
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21:23:39 <int-e> arseniiv: it just seems so inconsiderate
21:23:49 <arseniiv> yes
21:23:52 <int-e> actively distubring another person should take more than a single click
21:27:50 <arseniiv> I saw people saying sorry when accidentally clicking on the button like this or trying to enter a particular character (in a custom layout) in Skype (ow, IIRC that wasn’t switchable off either). I can totally understand that though luckily no one called me when I was using phone (as I don’t use speakers on a computer for a couple of years). So I didn’t thought about these issues much, but yes
21:30:30 <arseniiv> hm I was lucky not to call anyone myself. Though I was inconsiderate to text several times when the person still slept (not that I wake early, so I thought others are awake at the time I am)
21:30:59 <arseniiv> to text or to send a cat photo
21:31:05 <int-e> Ah the victim took it in good humor. I just don't want a repeat
21:32:20 <arseniiv> indeed
21:36:02 <zzo38> Is there alternative program, or are you able to alter the program, or to tell whoever makes it?
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21:39:19 <int-e> arseniiv: the irritating bit is that there's no microphone connected. hmm.
21:41:11 <arseniiv> int-e: hm also indeed like zzo38 says I heard there are several alternative clients, I just hadn’t browsed them at all myself
21:41:18 <int-e> I guess alsa makes it hard to figure that out
21:53:13 <int-e> arseniiv: there's a ticket... doesn't seem to be a popular request :/ https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/3583
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21:55:15 <int-e> Oh and I was going to look at other clients, but I'm not too hopeful there.
21:55:17 * int-e shrugs.
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21:55:42 <int-e> This is all kind of non-esoteric, but the question whether software is inherently evil did seem appropriate :)
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22:02:58 <arseniiv> int-e: it is, it is, maybe just the tiniest programs aren’t!
22:03:28 <arseniiv> lambda calculus is also evil, but pi calculus is <infinite branching>
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22:26:59 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73347&oldid=73345 * Demonthos * (+101) /* tokens */
22:33:43 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73348&oldid=73347 * Demonthos * (+74) /* tokens */
23:10:01 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73349&oldid=73348 * Demonthos * (+132) /* syntax */
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2020-06-08:

00:07:09 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:55:51 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73350&oldid=73349 * Demonthos * (+27) /* tokens */
01:04:32 <imode> pi calculus is black magic and nobody can tell me otherwise.
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01:30:08 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73351&oldid=73350 * Demonthos * (+106) /* examples */
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04:37:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Polybagel *  New user account
04:50:27 <esowiki> [[!!!Batch]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73352&oldid=62874 * Voltage2007 * (+96) this is a ridiculous amount of tags
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05:28:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73353&oldid=73338 * Polybagel * (+96) 
05:28:43 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73354 * Polybagel * (+1686) Created page with "'''Heebolang''' is an esolang created by Sebastian Silvernagel, which is very similar to esolangs like brainfuck, with the sole intention of being as hard to read and as hard..."
05:39:13 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73355&oldid=73354 * Polybagel * (+164) 
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06:30:19 <zzo38> Have you used METAFONT to make any fonts?
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07:42:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * RubenVerg *  New user account
07:43:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73356&oldid=73353 * RubenVerg * (+103) hey! RubenVerg
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08:23:59 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73357&oldid=66451 * Chris Pressey * (+28) add see also
08:24:33 <esowiki> [[HUNTER]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73358&oldid=70810 * Chris Pressey * (+35) add see also
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11:06:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, but I have used metapost for a few simple illustrations
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11:21:39 <int-e> arseniiv: But the tiniest programs lure programmers in.
11:22:02 <int-e> arseniiv: So they're an essential part of the grander conspiracy.
11:24:20 <int-e> Speaking of tiniest programs, I'm amazed that after 22 weeks, https://projecteuler.net/problem=696 still has not reached 100 solvers (74 right now).
11:30:00 <Taneb> int-e: hmm, that looks tractable
11:33:16 <arseniiv> hi!
11:34:20 <arseniiv> int-e: hmm maybe they tricked me so I thought them innocent
11:37:23 <arseniiv> re. mahjong problem: why 1 000 000 007?.. Maybe it has interesting factorization?
11:37:37 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a prime that fits into 32 bits
11:37:44 <arseniiv> ah!
11:37:59 <int-e> In fact it's a prime < 2^30, so you can do addition without worries. 
11:39:14 <int-e> (even when using signed 32 bit ints)
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11:41:32 <int-e> (I don't consider this a spoiler; this is done in a lot of P.E. problems, usually with 10^9+7 but I've seen amother nearby prime (maybe 10^9+9) as well..)
11:51:53 <int-e> It *is* a bit harder than it looks... but I thought some other problems I solved were harder.
11:52:14 <int-e> But those numbers disagree. :)
12:04:02 <int-e> Oh and computers, are they symbionts or parasites?
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12:39:30 <arseniiv> int-e: if not paraonts, then symbisites definitely
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13:02:55 <cpressey> I found a very small gap in my Turing-completeness proof for Burro. Symbols on the tape are represented by either 1 or 3, but any tape cell never before encountered will be 0.
13:03:31 <cpressey> I think this is easy to fix. Before simulating a step, check if tape cell <> 1 and <> 3, and if so, write 1.
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13:09:28 <cpressey> i.e. --(--(+>/>)/>)<
13:09:51 <cpressey> Well, no.  But like that.
13:49:13 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73359&oldid=70422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) /* See also */
13:50:47 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence
13:51:03 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73360&oldid=73121 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Resources */
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14:14:19 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73361&oldid=73360 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* Example: print "Hello, World!" */
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15:25:06 <cpressey> Ugh, another gap. The construction as it's written uses two junk cells per TM tape cell, not one. Because the "if" idiom described in it always treats the cell to the right as the junk cell, and "if" is used on both the TM state and the TM tape cell contents.
15:25:19 <cpressey> Again, shouldn't be super-hard to fix.
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15:44:54 <esowiki> [[Recursion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73362&oldid=69307 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-31) 
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16:45:54 <esowiki> [[Dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73363&oldid=72642 * Emerald * (+386) Haha template funny
17:01:21 <esowiki> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73364&oldid=72912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) Undo revision 72912 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
17:01:28 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73365&oldid=73363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) 
17:02:07 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73366&oldid=73365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) 
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17:33:16 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73367&oldid=73355 * Polybagel * (-12) 
17:34:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73368&oldid=73344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Entity */
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17:42:10 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73369 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+424) Created page with "{{PageWIP}} '''Zfuck''' is a [[Turing-complete]] 3-command variation of [[Smallfuck]] discovered by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Memory== Like Smallfuck, Zfuck operates..."
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18:04:36 <esowiki> [[Fading Rainbow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73370 * Hakerh400 * (+8803) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
18:04:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73371&oldid=73346 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
18:04:44 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73372&oldid=73325 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
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18:25:47 <esowiki> [[Null program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73373&oldid=18323 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 
18:27:33 <esowiki> [[Swissen Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73374&oldid=67601 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Language Implementation */
18:31:48 <b_jonas> [ 2!18
18:31:49 <j-bot> b_jonas: 153
18:32:03 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73375&oldid=71758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) bold title
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18:48:36 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73376&oldid=73369 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1305) 
18:52:17 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73377&oldid=72227 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */ wikipedia link
18:52:50 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73378&oldid=73376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) 
18:53:05 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73379&oldid=73378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* See also */
18:53:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73380&oldid=73296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
18:54:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73381&oldid=73371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Z */
18:56:09 <esowiki> [[Y (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73382&oldid=60877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Cats
18:58:04 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73383&oldid=70767 * Hakerh400 * (-137) Add proper label
18:58:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73384&oldid=73368 * Hakerh400 * (-65) Add proper label
19:42:52 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73385&oldid=73351 * Demonthos * (-143) /* the idea */
19:44:18 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73386&oldid=73385 * Demonthos * (+2) /* the idea */
19:49:54 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73387&oldid=73386 * Demonthos * (+160) /* tokens */
19:50:36 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73388&oldid=73387 * Demonthos * (+2) /* examples */
19:52:05 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73389&oldid=73388 * Demonthos * (+123) /* examples */
19:53:35 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73390&oldid=73389 * Demonthos * (-108) /* examples */
20:01:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73391&oldid=73244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
20:09:09 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73392&oldid=73390 * Demonthos * (+1) /* examples */
20:09:47 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73393&oldid=73392 * Demonthos * (+7) /* examples */
20:12:45 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73394&oldid=73393 * Demonthos * (+305) /* examples */
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20:57:56 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73395&oldid=73367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) 
20:58:29 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73396&oldid=73395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Github Source Code and Interpreter Download */ cats
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21:11:55 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73397&oldid=65499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Instructions */
21:12:13 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73398&oldid=73397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instructions */
21:14:33 <esowiki> [[Gulf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73399&oldid=46444 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
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21:31:30 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73400&oldid=73398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ cats
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21:57:11 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73401&oldid=73394 * Demonthos * (+29) /* examples */
21:58:02 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73402&oldid=73401 * Demonthos * (+0) /* examples */
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23:22:32 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73403&oldid=73396 * Polybagel * (+902) 
23:24:07 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73404&oldid=73403 * Polybagel * (+267) 
23:24:35 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73405&oldid=73404 * Polybagel * (+0) 
23:25:24 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73406&oldid=73405 * Polybagel * (+22) 
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23:47:25 <shachaf> `olist 1204
23:47:27 <HackEso> olist 1204: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:50:17 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73407&oldid=73406 * Polybagel * (+1) 
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2020-06-09:

00:16:56 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73408&oldid=68416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) 
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01:07:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Bigyihsuan *  New user account
01:10:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73409&oldid=73356 * Bigyihsuan * (+313) introduce bigyihsuan
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03:38:10 <Sgeo> Reading http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2013/10/22/citation-needed/
03:38:24 <Sgeo> (About why most languages start indexing at 0)
03:45:21 <Sgeo> https://python-history.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-python-uses-0-based-indexing.html
03:46:40 <zzo38> I think zero based indexing has many advantages, although sometimes it is useful to specify a range that starts at whatever number you want (which is possible in BASIC, and I think also in Pascal).
03:52:56 <zzo38> (BASIC does allow negative numbers in the range too, which is also useful, I think. But I think that you do not need fractions in array indices.)
03:53:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like Macintosh Pascal?
03:55:06 <zzo38> I don't know; I didn't use Macintosh Pascal; I only used the Pascal on DOS (and even then, only on a computer with Linux, not DOS).
03:56:19 <shachaf> Someone mentioned that it has a feature where nested functions can return out of their enclosing functions.
03:56:22 <shachaf> Do you like this?
03:57:17 <zzo38> Yes, that makes sense (if it can be suitably implemented).
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04:34:23 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73410&oldid=73407 * Polybagel * (+1191) 
04:35:36 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73411&oldid=73410 * Polybagel * (+17) 
04:40:41 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73412&oldid=73411 * Polybagel * (+2) 
04:43:21 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73413&oldid=73412 * Polybagel * (+251) 
04:51:28 <pikhq> shachaf: Cute
04:58:47 <zzo38> Some things are missing from the Computer Modern fonts, such as thorn letter, blackboard bold, and a few others
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06:47:21 <zzo38> METAFONT has the feature that you can put if blocks and for loops anywhere, including inside of expressions, such as:  (1 for n=1 upto y: *x endfor)
07:08:28 <rain1> nice feature, scheme has that too
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08:03:23 <esowiki> [[Fading Rainbow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73414&oldid=73370 * Ais523 * (+384) this is TC (via compiling 01-2C into it)
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08:41:12 <fizzie> Well, you know, some dialects of C do too.
08:41:14 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%d", ({ int s = 0; for (int i = 1; i <= 5; i++) s += i; s; })); }
08:41:15 <HackEso> 15
08:50:27 <myname> so for _IS_ an expression but cannot work with statements in its condition?
08:51:35 <fizzie> If you mean the C example, that's just a GCC extension. It works anywhere an expression does.
08:51:57 <myname> ok
08:54:13 <fizzie> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Statement-Exprs.html for the record.
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11:16:06 <int-e> So what's this really... a basic block whose final statement is an expression is an expression itself...
11:16:56 <int-e> (will check the link for proper terminology)
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11:41:48 <rain1> https://store.steampowered.com/app/917900/Monster_Logic/
11:41:57 <rain1>  Based on esoteric languages Befunge and Trefunge
11:41:59 <rain1> 42 unique levels
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12:10:27 <b_jonas> int-e: no, you have to parenthisize it and then it's an exception, but only in gcc
12:12:39 <shachaf> And clang.
12:19:38 <int-e> b_jonas: ({ triggers my brain differently actually. ({ 1,2,3 }) constructs a 3 element array in LPC (and presumably Pike).
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12:29:52 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73415 * Arseniiv * (+1776) this is bs
12:31:09 <arseniiv_> hi
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12:32:52 <int-e> arseniiv: BFF = brainfuck forever
12:32:57 <arseniiv> at last I’m enacted my revenge and in a not-so-unclassy way. Though I’m not sure at all that is TC
12:33:01 <arseniiv> int-e: rofl
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12:57:32 <b_jonas> int-e: in C the syntax for that is (sometype){constructor elements} 
12:57:51 <b_jonas> you can't parenthisize the braces (except in C++, but even then you need a type before it)
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13:01:17 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73416&oldid=73415 * Int-e * (+3) why did I read this
13:02:18 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73417&oldid=34757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) clearer linkback
13:02:32 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73418&oldid=73417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
13:02:57 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73419&oldid=73418 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
13:04:55 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73420&oldid=73416 * Arseniiv * (+830) 
13:05:33 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks though the merge conflict made me re-copy some things but that’s okay
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13:08:49 <arseniiv> oh wait I was to edit “Define x mod 0 := x” to “… = …” to not resemble an assignment but I edited something else it seems
13:08:49 <esowiki> [[Carriage/carriage.ml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73421&oldid=34759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) 
13:09:19 <esowiki> [[Carriage/carriage.ml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73422&oldid=73421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) 
13:11:00 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73423&oldid=73419 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) see also
13:11:49 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73424&oldid=73420 * Arseniiv * (+8) no more no more sweet music
13:15:46 <arseniiv> ah, now I see why my changes except pseudocode insertion didn’t apply: I used the wrong tab
13:16:56 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73425&oldid=73424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Pseudocode */ typing
13:21:32 <arseniiv> hey what do you think you are doing
13:23:38 <int-e> what's with the changed return statement
13:24:04 <int-e> The rest looks like it might actually make the code work? I don't know.
13:30:12 <arseniiv> yes though Sequence was there for a reason
13:30:17 <arseniiv> I’ll editing that
13:30:35 <arseniiv> also I found out I ended up with a language which outputs always 0
13:35:34 <catern> shachaf: I guess that neato is in regard to that link I sent you?
13:37:37 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73426&oldid=73425 * Arseniiv * (+56) I used `Sequence` for a reason, and the output should be, well, outputted
13:46:54 <cpressey> "There should be no literals at different positions which denote the same number." -- does that mean 'assert len(instructions) == len(set(instructions))' ?
13:53:30 <cpressey> arseniiv: ^^^ ?
13:54:13 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah that's not TC
13:54:40 <int-e> hmm
13:54:42 <cpressey> (I'm pretty sure it does, I'm mainly wondering if that line should be in the program to emphasise that part of the definition formally)
13:56:16 <int-e> arseniiv: At least as far as I can see. The (mod 0) instruction is just a nop, and we can always reduce x modulo all the lcm of all the other numbers.
13:56:35 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah!
13:58:13 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah it would be good. At first I added assertions about the length and nonnegativity but then scraped it because I forgot one can assert uniqueness as simple as you shown
13:58:16 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73427&oldid=73426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Pseudocode */ Sequence is an import
13:59:16 <arseniiv> I don’t even want to see what they’ve done this time
13:59:40 <arseniiv> I should’ve made that page my user’s subpage
14:00:19 <esowiki> [[? $51=]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73428&oldid=65097 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) rm Example rows
14:01:10 <arseniiv> int-e: seems so. For some reason I haven’t thought a simple lcm would kill it all :D
14:03:22 <esowiki> [[Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73429&oldid=55194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold title
14:04:31 <esowiki> [[~English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73430&oldid=65546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) 
14:04:34 <int-e> arseniiv: Now if (mod 0) actually resulted in an observable test for 0...
14:04:46 <esowiki> [[~English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73431&oldid=73430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat
14:05:01 <int-e> then I don't really know what would happen.
14:05:37 <int-e> Probably still just a single counter Minsky machine.
14:09:52 <arseniiv> yeah I didn’t thought that (mod 0) would end up a complete noop
14:11:57 <int-e> arseniiv: you can still pull a George Lucas and replace the language by something different, I mean better :P
14:11:57 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73432&oldid=66508 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190) 
14:12:33 <arseniiv> int-e: :D
14:12:55 <arseniiv> though I’d wanted it to be of a similar simplicity
14:14:51 <b_jonas> int-e: single-counter Minsky machine? aren't those basically just finite state machines?
14:17:42 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73433&oldid=73427 * Arseniiv * (+117) suggestions from cpressey and int-e and a *critical* edit
14:18:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73434&oldid=73107 * Arseniiv * (+596) /* On additions to BrainSoothe */ new section
14:48:40 <zzo38> I know that in GNU C you can use statements inside of expressions, although in METAFONT it is more like you can even put a for loop where a macro is expected, but unlike C macros you can use values of variables and that stuff.
14:49:54 <zzo38> See the example I had given; something like that (which will result in something like "1*x*x*x*x", and computes x to the power of y) won't work in C.
14:58:23 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73435&oldid=73433 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Commentary */ cats
15:12:30 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73436&oldid=68266 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) cats
15:13:25 <cpressey> arseniiv: Regarding my silly "16 quantifiers" idea, handling empty sets sensibly is the strongest reason (for me) for having only two quantifiers. It's intuitive to me that forall over an empty set is trivially true and exists over an empty set is trivially false, regardless of the predicate.
15:15:22 <cpressey> You could, for other quantifiers, stipulate the sets must not be empty, but then it's probably simpler to just rephrase those in terms of forall or exists, instead of pretending they're quantifiers themselves.
15:15:29 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, an operation should have a neutral element, that time I added it in the requirements too. But XOR has it, so it’s not trivially excluded…
15:22:28 <arseniiv> though one person said to me that ∀ and ∃ are left and right (or right and left?..) adjoin to substitution or something like that, so they should be special
15:22:47 <arseniiv> s/adjoin/adjoint
15:22:55 <arseniiv> as functors
15:23:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73437&oldid=73434 * OsmineYT * (+157) /* Hello (idk why) */ new section
15:24:32 <arseniiv> (hm hopefully that means endofunctors which decorate a formula with ∀x or ∃x, and map morphisms in some way. I don’t even remember what morphisms there should be between formulas, implications?..)
15:24:46 <b_jonas> cpressey: oh, as for that, the main problem is not empty sets (you can just choose the result for that), it's that (1) most binary operations aren't associative, some don't make sense when you try to fold an infinite sequence of inputs, most either don't make sense or are trivial when you try to fold more than countable infinite sequence of inputs, and most aren't commutative.
15:25:09 <b_jonas> cpressey: so if you want a binary output, basically all you get are the foreach, exists, and the two constant operations
15:28:22 <b_jonas> in general you can generalize a maximum fold to infinitely large inputs as the supremum, or you can take the sum of countably infinite inputs in two ways (limit of sum of prefixes for ordered sequences; the special case sum of absolute convergent unordered sequences, where it's good to know that if every element is nonegative then your sequence is guaranteed to be absolute convergent),
15:29:33 <b_jonas> but then if you try to take the sum of more than countably infinite nonnegative real numbers, you just find that it is always infinite unless all but countably infinite of the terms are zero, so you can't get too much of a meaningful generalization over countable set of inputs.
15:30:01 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> some don't make sense when you try to fold an infinite sequence of inputs => oh, right, I think we both there forgot about infinite domains
15:31:04 <b_jonas> back to boolean functions, you also get four more as folds, unlike what I said, namely foreach on an ordered sequence that negates the first input, and exists on an ordered sequence that negates the last input, plus two just return the first input or its negation
15:31:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think cpressey did, the few days ago when he mentioned this
15:32:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I don’t insist :)
15:33:16 <b_jonas> cpressey: xor and xnor are associative, but they don't work for an infinite set of inputs, except you can take the xor of infinitely many inputs if all but finitely many of them are zero,
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15:34:12 <b_jonas> but then, if you are interested only in sequences with all but finitely many elements zero, that's fine, filter out the zeros and you can do a lot of things with it
15:34:32 <b_jonas> similarly xnor with all but finitely many elements nonzero
15:35:01 <b_jonas> (obviously all of this is with the modern convention that zero means false)
15:36:01 <arseniiv> . o O ( all but finitely many elements nonfalse :)
15:41:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well, there are two problems here. either 0=false or 0=true would make sense as a representation, perhaps neiter is better than the other, so we had to pick one, and eventually 0=false became standard, except in the posix shell for historical reasons.
15:43:02 <arseniiv> hm hm but were’n there a couple of mathematical reasons to treat 0 = false?
15:43:23 <b_jonas> the other problem is that once you pick 0=false, you can pick different representations for true, and which one is convenient can differ on what you're doing, so you can even use more than one representation in your program: 1, -1, min of your signed type, any nonzero value, or even the version where any nonnegative is positive and any negative is true
15:44:00 <b_jonas> plus you can choose different sizes of course, like 1 bit (in which case all of these are the same), 8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit, 64 bit, any other size you normally use for integers or whatever
15:44:10 <arseniiv> ah I thought you used Z₂
15:44:36 <b_jonas> but the problem is that 1=true vs -1=true can be confusing, because suddenly min isn't always false and max isn't always true
15:45:25 <b_jonas> so whenever you want to use a numeric value, outside of a specific language or library that has a convention (like C or BASIC or fortran), you just have to explicitly say if it matters
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15:52:48 <b_jonas> also the defaults can differ between representation and notation. in C these are the same, because the built-in comparison operators just return 0 or 1, that's all. but C++, in one of its more stupid non-C-compatible changes, changes that so that the comparison operators return bool true or false, 
15:53:17 <b_jonas> which behave in high level language as 1 and 0 (that's how they cast to any type of integer or float), but can be represented in any way.
15:54:02 <b_jonas> in the x86 abis, they're represented as 8-byte integers with value 0=false 1=true, probably because of the annoying old 386 SETcc instructions that chose that representations and that we're now stuck with,
15:55:12 <b_jonas> but I sort of think that ideally, if you're not restricted to x86 or MMIX or any current architecture, 0=false -1=true would be the best representation, because that's easier with bitwise operations; but 0=false 1=true would be the best high level meaning (in the C++ sense), because that causes less confusion with signed and unsigned integer types
15:56:56 <b_jonas> and all the SSE and later x86 instructions know this, so the comparisons represent true as -1, and the instructions that takes boolean input from bytes (or longer words) check the sign bit only
15:59:37 <zzo38> Some programming languages don't have boolean values as separate values at all
16:00:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, specifically C. modern C has a _Bool type, but as it's added later, all the comparison operators still return int, AS THEY SHOULD, DARN YOU STROTROUP
16:04:33 <b_jonas> but there's also the opposite, languages where neither booleans convert implicitly to integers nor any integers convert implicitly to booleans
16:05:01 <b_jonas> oh yeah, modern perl has yet another representation: the empty string as false and 1 as true
16:05:46 <b_jonas> except it's not really the empty string, it's a dual scalar that is the empty string as a string and 0 without warning as a number
16:06:17 <zzo38> I mean something a bit different though; for example, in many assembly language where you will have "jump if positive", "jump if nonzero", etc.
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17:07:36 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> except it's not really the empty string, it's a dual scalar that is the empty string as a string and 0 without warning as a number => some strange entities do they have, eh
17:08:28 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73441&oldid=69425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
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17:10:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: nah, they have arbitrary dual scalars that contain a string and a number (the number can be any of a floating-point, an integer, or an unsigned integer), 
17:11:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh now I need to see how do they initialize them
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17:12:05 <b_jonas> it's just that *most* such dual scalars that are ever created are either implicitly upgraded from a scalar that has only a string that you use a number so perl caches the number, or from a scalar that stores a number but gets implicitly upgraded to contain a string too by converting the number, or from a boolean false.
17:12:38 <b_jonas> but you *can* create arbitrary dual string/number scalars, there's a convenient function for it too: Scalar::Util::dualvar
17:13:02 <b_jonas> (all this applies to perl 5.10 or later, I don't want to keep track of history before that)
17:13:33 <b_jonas> there are, of course, also scalars that are not numbers or strings or combinations of them
17:14:02 <arseniiv> premature optimization bears weird things
17:14:06 <b_jonas> most of them still implicitly convert to a number and to a string, but they don't upgrade to store that sort of thing
17:14:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it made sense back in ye old days when perl was first created. perhaps not so much now.
17:15:21 <arseniiv> there should be an esolang which has many strange things due to carefully crafted “historical” reasons
17:16:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, you can add fake history. that sort of thing can be interesting even if it's only very modern history.
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17:17:24 <b_jonas> it's the sort of thing that's mostly done by conscripters, who create esoteric (in our sense) natural languages, due to Tolkien's tradition, but it's still possible with esoteric programming langugaes
17:17:28 <arseniiv> like, once I thought about a stack language which had a queue “stack” among others. Also there was a duplicating stack and a dropping stack (push a value, then pop two copies of it from the first and no copies at all from the second; almost all the commands moved from one or several stacks to another)
17:18:29 <arseniiv> conlanging/conworlding is interesting, yeah, though I have too few head resources to craft these things in detail I’d like
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17:19:08 <b_jonas> yes, sorry, conlangers and conscripters
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17:20:00 <b_jonas> arseniiv: does it count as a fake history when a language is designed as if its purpose was to implement in hardware, but you only ever plan to implement it in software? MIX and MMIX are such cases
17:20:16 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think no conlang is good enough without considering its writing system in some detail, even if it’s an auxlang with latin alphabet
17:20:26 <arseniiv> so no harm mixing a bit
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17:20:49 <arseniiv> and no writing system is good without considering who would use it for what
17:21:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: does it count as a fake history when a language is designed as if its purpose was to implement in hardware, but you only ever plan to implement it in software? MIX and MMIX are such cases => this seems a boundary case but why not indeed
17:23:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't see why that would be the case, for two reasons. (1) there are and especially were a lot of natural languages that were used extensively and were certainly useful, but either were never written or were rarely contemporarily written so much that the writing clearly isn't what adds value. why would the writing be necessary for a conlang? this is opposed to a programming language, where I 
17:23:24 <b_jonas> see why writing is generally the best form.
17:24:56 <b_jonas> (2) there are ancient languages where most people don't bother much with the original writing system, we just transcribe the relatively few artifacts we have and work with the transcriptions, because that's easier for us. ancient egyptian and akkadian would be examples for that. and even for languages where we still sort of use the same script, the writing has evolved a lot: 
17:26:26 <b_jonas> consider latin, which has been a dead language for a pretty long time, but preserved due to the role of christianty. these days we write it in fancy Times roman and italic style lower case letters, with spaces and sometimes punctuation, that weren't used five hundred years ago and may have taken weeks for a scholar back then to adapt to.
17:27:15 <b_jonas> you could say it's sort of the same writing system, but a lot has changed. can you even read the Fraktur and Blackletter scripts that were used on some ceremonial official documents like university diplomas thirty years ago, and heavily actively used like 120 years ago?
17:27:37 <b_jonas> yes, some people can read them, in as much as some people can read Chinese too
17:28:48 <b_jonas> admittedly the writing system changes often more superficially than the spoken language, so deciphering the writing system style within the same script (latin in this example) and adapting to read it is much easier than deciphering and learning the language
17:30:05 <b_jonas> the cases I mentioned only work because the languages were dead and either preserved on written artifacts (stone, clay, vellum, papyrus etc), or because the language was half-dead and so its form was preserved by organized religion for a long time (latin and church slavonic)
17:32:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I forgot about unwritten languages, sorry
17:35:55 <zzo38> You might use METAFONT if you want to invent your own writing too, rather than using existing kind of writing, I think.
17:37:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: in fact, writing second and oral form first is the standard for natural languages, and the only languages that exist primarily as writing are the dead ones preserved by religion or artifacts that I mentioned 
17:38:19 <zzo38> Yes, I think that is why Latin words are pronounced differently sometimes
17:40:08 <arseniiv> yeah, and also in languages with heavy literary norms the writing slightly leaks into oral language but usually this leak is equated zero
17:41:20 <zzo38> I had some ideas about conlang, one idea is about involving different physiology
17:42:09 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, that always happens, in English and a lot of other languages
18:02:45 <zzo38> Some kind of writing, such as Germanic rune writing, they don't use much, now using Latin writing instead.
18:06:47 <b_jonas> oh yeah, futhark runes, as well as Tolkien's conscripts (tengwar and certh) are also examples where they survived in artifacts that we have transliterated and are only studying in transliterations now and use modern scripts to write the ancient languages, in addition to egyptian and akkadian
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19:14:34 <shachaf> catern: Yes.
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19:21:12 <catern> shachaf: is that the kind of thing you were thinking of in your tweet?
19:21:59 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73455 * Sugarfi * (+1138) Created page with "== Rfghy ==  Rfghy is a simple esolang based around the idea of self-modifying code. There are two registers: `!` and `@`. Each "cycle" of the Rfghy interpreter, `!` is execut..."
19:22:01 <shachaf> It's the same family of thing, I guess?
19:22:08 <catern> both of them seemed like fairly "direct-style" (here labeled "immediate-mode") argument parsing
19:22:39 <shachaf> Do you know the human who made that other library?
19:22:51 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73456&oldid=73455 * Sugarfi * (-22) /* Rfghy */
19:23:10 <catern> yes, I used to work with him
19:23:13 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73457&oldid=73456 * Sugarfi * (-12) /* Rfghy */
19:23:52 <shachaf> My friend was talking about them independently in some other context recently.
19:24:57 <catern> how coincidental
19:25:35 <catern> you two should discuss argument parsing - although maybe it's my myopia that makes me think your two schemes look very similar
19:26:49 <shachaf> I mean, argument parsing doesn't matter that much, I'm sure both are fine.
19:27:16 <shachaf> The thing where it parses everything upfront, and gives you the number of times each flag appears etc., is kind of different.
19:29:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73458 * Bigyihsuan * (+316) Created page with "The '''International Phonetic Esoteric Language''', abbreviated to '''IPEL''', is a stack-based [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:Bigyihsuan]] based on the idea of u..."
19:29:31 <catern> well, yes, argument parsing isn't that fundamental, and especially not in C; better to use a better language for the command-line-UI and just call into C from there 
19:30:17 <esowiki> [[User:Bigyihsuan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73459 * Bigyihsuan * (+86) Created page with "This is my page!  '''Languages created:'''  * International Phonetic Esoteric Language"
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19:30:40 <catern> (on the other hand, in some ways, getopt-style CLI arguments are the only standard serialization form for data on Unix, so that could make it important... but probably not)
19:32:05 <shachaf> Why better to use two languages instead of one?
19:34:10 <catern> 'cause I don't want to do fancy UIs in C
19:35:06 <catern> but I presume C is important for some mysterious reason otherwise everyone wouldn't be writing all these argument parsing libraries for C
19:35:59 <catern> also, IPC is a hassle - my program should be available as a library anyway, and my program just a fancy UI over that library. well, that's my cached thought on the topic, maybe it's not right
19:36:27 <shachaf> I think something like that is right. Command line programs make for pretty bad libraries.
19:40:03 <catern> and if I'm writing in C, it's easy to write a library that's usable from many languages - so if I should be writing a library anyway, it's convenient and easy to write my UI in whatever language is best for writing in UIs
19:40:11 <shachaf> Mixing APIs and UIs has struck me as a bad idea for a long time.
19:40:42 <shachaf> I agree with that, but then what language should I write the UI in?
19:41:17 <zzo38> I think you could use C for both, if wanted
19:41:27 <catern> that's too concrete of a question for me, I only deal in vagueries 
19:41:40 <catern> (in practice I use Python)
19:42:16 <shachaf> $ tym pip3 > /dev/null
19:42:19 <shachaf> time:   real 0.532s (user 0.488s, sys 0.044s; 99.96% cpu)
19:42:44 <zzo38> Some programming languages don't have the best way to access C libraries though; for example, PostScript doesn't have a good way to do it (mostly what I do then is using printobject and/or writeobject). Also, you can know how the Glk dispatch API works; it is a design that works better when used from multiple programming languages, than what C does.
19:42:45 <shachaf> Probably this program is an outlier, but over 500ms for printing the help screen isn't encouraging.
19:43:17 <catern> scheme? typescript? haskell?
19:43:34 <catern> surely there has to be some language that is good....!
19:43:52 <shachaf> If only there was. Then I could use it instead of C for the library as well.
19:44:27 <zzo38> Well, there are some, which as assembly language, but assembly language isn't so portable.
19:45:14 <catern> shachaf: going back a bit, do you not buy into the, "APIs are UIs" idea? (and symmetrically, UIs are APIs)
19:45:32 <catern> personally, I think merging UI and API closer together is a really interesting area for research
19:45:40 <shachaf> I do not.
19:45:45 <shachaf> Well, at least in their current state.
19:45:59 <shachaf> I agree that merging them could be interesting.
19:46:40 <zzo38> I think that sometimes APIs can be good as UIs, and sometimes not so much. (Other way around also)
19:46:45 <shachaf> There are many ways that Unix command line programs are designed to be UIs -- for human use on specific things -- rather than APIs.
19:47:22 <shachaf> Say you have `rm a b c`, and you want to parameterize that on a list of items. In bash you could write something like `rm ${list[@]}`
19:47:30 <shachaf> What can go wrong just from doing that?
19:47:52 <catern> many things, but that's partially bash's fault though
19:47:55 <shachaf> arr might be empty; an element of arr might start with -; an element of arr might contain whitespace; ...
19:48:06 <zzo38> I usually write "echo" first to check that it is correct
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19:48:35 <zzo38> In shell scripts I might add -- before the other arguments
19:48:39 <catern> I would prefer rm to have a typed interface though, for sure
19:48:40 <shachaf> Some of these are just problems with the Unix command line norms, sure.
19:48:51 <shachaf> zzo38: But that still doesn't handle the empty list case.
19:49:04 <catern> e.g (filepath list) -> IO ()
19:49:08 <shachaf> Oh, also some items of arr -- which I called list above -- might contain whitespace.
19:49:48 <zzo38> Yes, but the empty list case is I think a problem with rm itself; rm should successfully do nothing if there are no arguments, I think.
19:50:13 <shachaf> A UI is intended to be discoverable as you use it, whereas an API has to be discoverable up-front, I suppose.
19:50:30 <catern> (for example, some complicated UI systems have macro systems which you can perform actions using the rich UI capabilities to, in effect, specify a program. and the most powerful IDEs can make it easy to quickly program against APIs through autocomplete and various things. could the two be merged closer together?)
19:51:33 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think that Unix command line is good for a lot of stuff, although for writing full programs, C and other programming languages are better
19:51:35 <catern> anyway, if they could be brought closer together, it would be interesting to, instead of the Unix interface which just passes a list of strings to rm, have a nicely typed interface for rm, and many other utilities like it
19:52:08 <shachaf> Yes, maybe a better shell UI would look a bit more like that, such that you pass structured data to "commands" (which might just be library calls), and it helps you put them together easily.
19:52:39 <shachaf> I've thought about things like that before. There are many other interface improvements you can make to terminals and shells.
19:54:28 <int-e> > isLower 'ꙮ'
19:54:30 <lambdabot>  False
19:54:35 <int-e> > isUpper 'ꙮ'
19:54:37 <lambdabot>  False
19:54:50 <zzo38> One thing I thought is in Plan10 to have "chain segments", and environment variables and command-line arguments are implemented using chain segments, but then you could define other interfaces too.
19:55:30 <catern> I have a vague suspicion that too many people have tried to make shells better or smarter in various ways - it might be a dead end - maybe it would be more productive to go the other direction, and use your fancy Emacs Agda IDE to manipulate files instead of snippets of code
19:56:27 <shachaf> I am not too much into turbo-fancy IDEs.
19:58:04 <int-e> . o O ( 100% CPU for a blinking cursor. )
19:59:21 <zzo38> If a program calls another program using exec(), and the new program and old program have any chain segments with the same name, then that memory is retained rather than being reset.
19:59:26 <catern> well, turbo-fancy IDEs are hard to manipulate and program right now, so it's quite reasonable. but maybe they can be made more programmable (in a way that your knowledge of the UI directly allow programmability)
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19:59:50 <catern> zzo38: what about passing file descriptors or other non-memory resources? 
20:00:04 <catern> (such as stdin/stdout/stderr)
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20:00:37 <zzo38> catern: You can already do that in the normal way.
20:01:07 <catern> zzo38: so then why not pass a chain segment as a normal resource rather than by name?
20:02:45 <catern> shachaf: like, one reason I don't like turbo-fancy IDEs is that clicking a button doesn't correlate with knowing the name of the function that that button invokes. which makes it harder to write program involving those functions. but the underlying issue there is that you need to identify the function by some name - why can't you identify it by clicking the button?
20:02:54 <catern> or something like that
20:05:40 <zzo38> catern: I am not sure if I understand your question fully.
20:08:47 <catern> zzo38: it sounds like you're proposing that processes have a table of chain segments which they can look up by a string name, and which contain data, is that right? but resources like file descriptors also can contain data. why not unify the two, and instead of having a table of chain segments, just have a table of file descriptors? you can preserve the lookup-by-string-name thing if you want
20:12:37 <zzo38> Well, it is a bit different. I was thinking of chain segments like other (unnamed) segments declared in the ELF file would be loaded in memory; chain segments are the same but they have a name, and if it has a name then the operating system can retain whatever data is there rather than reset it, if both programs have the same name of chain segment. If the previous program doesn't have such a segment, then it is loaded like any other se
20:13:34 <zzo38> (So, it is otherwise like PT_LOAD, but it does not necessarily load the contents of the executable file.)
20:15:13 <zzo38> (Chain segments could be used for other purposes too, such as to implement overlays in a way that is sometimes done in DOS programs.)
20:30:43 <catern> I see
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20:49:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: "`rm ${list[@]}` [...] What can go wrong just from doing that?" => some things that you can fix by writing (rm -- "${list[@]}") instead, and apart from that, errors that you get when you expand a shell parameter or make variable that you thought would be defined but actually isn't and get an empty string, in which case you get serious bugs like that recent uninstaller that tried to rm -rf -- 
20:49:53 <b_jonas> "/usr/${SOMEVARIABLE}" and in fact deleted the /usr of anyone who tried to uninstall their program
20:50:11 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, I know.
20:50:34 <arseniiv> isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:50:35 <shachaf> The point is that hardly anyone writes that unless they're writing a script.
20:50:40 <esowiki> [[NARchy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73464&oldid=58278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) 
20:50:44 <arseniiv> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:50:47 <lambdabot>  True
20:50:52 <shachaf> So it highlights how different the UI vs. API thing even in the same program.
20:50:53 <arseniiv> int-e ^^^
20:51:04 <arseniiv> lambdabot knows it all
20:51:05 <shachaf> And of course this still doesn't solve every problem.
20:51:16 <int-e> Ah the abuses of @let.
20:51:29 <shachaf> For example if the list is empty this will still be an error.
20:51:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: as for "array may be empty" => yes, that can also cause serious bugs with some shell commands, though in the case of rm it's not generally a problem, unless it's a REALLY weird extglob nullglob problem where you accidentally remove a file named "!(*.jpg)"
20:51:57 <arseniiv> int-e: what @let?
20:51:57 <shachaf> It's a problem because rm will exit with 1 instead of 0.
20:52:03 <int-e> @undef
20:52:04 <lambdabot> Undefined.
20:52:11 <int-e> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:52:14 <lambdabot>  error:
20:52:14 <lambdabot>      Variable not in scope: isEsoteric :: Char -> t
20:52:19 <arseniiv> interesting :o
20:52:24 <int-e> @let isEsoteric _ = True
20:52:25 <lambdabot>  Defined.
20:52:27 <int-e> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:52:29 <lambdabot>  True
20:52:31 <int-e> @undef
20:52:31 <lambdabot> Undefined.
20:52:32 <b_jonas> "<catern> I would prefer rm to have a typed interface though, for sure" => you're in luck then, we have a remove C function for that, and various apis (mostly in high level languages) for recursive rm
20:52:44 <arseniiv> hm I think you retroactively defined it for that earlier case, then
20:53:17 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> zzo38: But that still doesn't handle the empty list case." => it does if you have a -f option. (rm -f --) successfully does nothing and returns true
20:53:33 <shachaf> Yes, but then it does -f on everything else.
20:53:54 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Yes, but the empty list case is I think a problem with rm itself" => no, rm handles it well, it's more of a problem with programs that interpret an empty argument list as acting on stdin 
20:56:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: re chain segments, instead on unix we have three different shared memory APIs in kernel+libc: mmap, sysv ipc, posix ipc. plus some higher level wrappers, such as one in boost whose purpose is to give a portable wrapper to unix vs windows.
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20:57:48 <shachaf> Even if rm did work perfectly here, it wouldn't help you that much because that'd be a big outlier in terms of unixular utilities.
20:58:56 <b_jonas> that said, something like "chain segment" made sense in high level languages like BASIC on old machines that had very limited RAM, where you would often want to load another BASIC program in such a way as to replace most of your program, but you asked BASIC to chain some of your variables and/or some of your programs.
20:59:29 <esowiki> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73465&oldid=65580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Interpreters */
20:59:55 <zzo38> Yes, using the CHAIN command, I think.
21:01:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73466&oldid=70716 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Code that actually works as required */
21:02:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: you usually want -f when you invoke rm from a script. Even without -f, (rm --) does nothing, it just gives you an error, which is sometimes acceptible, the rest of the time you indeed may need a workaround
21:02:47 <b_jonas> but yes, empty list of files is a much bigger problem for other commands 
21:02:50 <b_jonas> like grep or ls
21:03:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: but also the MERGE command, which is sort of the same but keeps all variables and most of the code, so it's more useful to load and unload overload code segments
21:04:22 <arseniiv> @let passwordOfTheMonth = "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"" ++ take passwordOfTheMonth 27 ++ "\" -- is not quine"
21:04:23 <lambdabot>  .L.hs:158:5: error:
21:04:23 <lambdabot>      • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
21:04:23 <lambdabot>      • In the expression:
21:04:36 <arseniiv> @let passwordOfTheMonth = "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"" ++ take 27 passwordOfTheMonth ++ "\" -- is not quine"
21:04:38 <lambdabot>  Defined.
21:04:44 <arseniiv> > passwordOfTheMonth
21:04:47 <lambdabot>  "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"\" -- is not quine"
21:05:13 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+191) Created page with "An esolang based on [[string]] [[rewriting]].  Out of bounds indexing -> 0.  ==Examples== ===[[Cat]] program===  0..*=0..*H ===Reverse [[cat]]===  0..*=*..0H ===Truth-machin..."
21:05:15 <arseniiv> oh it’s way clumsier than intended
21:05:25 <arseniiv> @undef
21:05:25 <lambdabot> Undefined.
21:05:56 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73468&oldid=73467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-191) delete!
21:06:01 <b_jonas> these days that sort of chaining is rarely relevant, because virtual memory helps you both ways: it lets you swap out parts of your program that are not needed right now, so you can just have one big program, and it lets you cache the contents of regular files that you use to pass data from one program to the next one, such as object files between a compiler and linker
21:06:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73469 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+191) Created page with "An esolang based on [[string]] [[rewriting]].  Out of bounds indexing -> 0.  ==Examples== ===[[Cat]] program===  0..*=0..*H ===Reverse [[cat]]===  0..*=*..0H ===Truth-machin..."
21:09:36 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73470&oldid=73413 * Polybagel * (+755) 
21:10:11 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73471&oldid=73470 * Polybagel * (+1) 
21:10:40 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73472&oldid=73471 * Polybagel * (+1) 
21:11:00 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73473&oldid=73462 * Bigyihsuan * (+3568) 
21:12:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73474&oldid=73473 * Bigyihsuan * (+107) 
21:12:12 <zzo38> Why does Glulx require the number of arguments to be specified for Glk API calls, even though that can be determined automatically from the type (which the interpreter needs to know anyways, in order to parse the arguments properly)?
21:23:22 <spruit11> To make it easy to walk or dump the stack?
21:24:53 <esowiki> [[Swapper]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73475&oldid=52869 * Voltage2007 * (-399) bit big of an edit
21:25:21 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73476&oldid=73474 * Bigyihsuan * (+286) 
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21:37:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: perhaps as a form of redundancy against programming errors?
21:38:54 <zzo38> Maybe.
22:18:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:19:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: can it be an artifact from a rarely used vararg function API, possibly one that's not even supported anymore, but whose existence has side effects to non-vararg functions? because that sort of happened to C varargs, which even on x86_64 have an effect on the ABI of a few non-vararg function calls, because we can't distinguish the ABI of vararg function calls from non-vararg calls, because that 
22:19:27 <b_jonas> could break old C programs with no ANSI style prototypes for a function, 
22:20:29 <b_jonas> even though nobody in the x86_64 era writes any new C programs that require that you can call a vararg function without a prototype, except when omitting #include <stdio.h> for golf purposes.
22:20:57 <fizzie> It would be perfectly legal to break those programs; it's not possible to call a vararg function without a prototype.
22:22:11 <fizzie> "If the expression that denotes the called function has a type that does not include a prototype -- [and if] the function is defined with a type that includes a prototype, and -- the prototype ends with an ellipsis --, the behavior is undefined."
22:22:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: not according to the current C standards (or even C89 I think), but in old compilers it was perfectly possible to call printf or open without a prototype, and as a result people wrote programs that did that and got away with it
22:22:49 <fizzie> Right, that sort of compatibility thing.
22:22:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, the C standard says that exactly because we don't want to support that sort of nonsense forever into the future
22:23:08 <b_jonas> but for now we still have some ancient C programs without prototypes so we can't do it yet
22:23:21 <b_jonas> or we couldn't do it yet when x86_64 came out
22:23:22 <fizzie> Is that really true though? The x86-64 varargs ABI *is* different -- will compilers use it "just in case" if there's no prototype? 
22:23:50 <zzo38> I don't think so, because Glk doesn't use varargs, and anyways it is Glulx, not C. (There is a C API for Glk too, although the Glk dispatch layer deals with the types of the functions and calls them (and also exposes the types in a portable format for all programming languages), so the Glulx interpreter will already know the type and number of arguments, even in case of extensions to Glk.)
22:24:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think so for at least one of the two x86_64 abis, but I'll have to look that up, and it impacts only a few function calls (depending on the type of arguments)
22:24:15 <fizzie> Apparently they do. Huh.
22:24:17 <zzo38> (And I have made some extensions to Glk. Making these extensions does not require changing the Glulx interpreter in any way.)
22:24:23 <fizzie> Well, it's not a huge hassle, addmittedly.
22:25:13 <fizzie> I would imagine for the SysV ABI it would affect all prototype-less calls, because you have to clear rax (or rather, set al to the "proper" value), which you otherwise wouldn't.
22:25:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: but you can see that the ABI is designed such that the called function can access the first argument without knowing what the type of the rest of the arguments are, which probably doesn't cause any performance problems, but even so it is a decision prompted by the vararg history
22:26:37 <b_jonas> I'll have to look up the details about the x86_64 ABIs in the Agner document later to tell what the AL thing was about, the one that can impact performance. I simply don't remember.,
22:27:26 <fizzie> You must set AL to the number of SIMD registers used for passing floating-point arguments if you're calling a varargs function.
22:27:43 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2oM5 does it for the call to f_noproto, and doesn't for the call to f_withproto.
22:28:13 <fizzie> I imagine it would by definition "affect" performance insofar that it's an extra instruction.
22:28:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: but in that case doesn't it impacts only functions that have arguments with floating point in them?
22:28:56 <fizzie> No, because you have to set it to 0 if they don't.
22:29:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: even if you have a prototype and so know that the function isn't vararg?
22:29:17 <b_jonas> which is the majority of function calls
22:29:22 <fizzie> Right, yes.
22:30:01 <fizzie> The point I was trying to make is that the fact that it's "forced" to assume prototype-less functions might be varargs is affecting all calls to prototype-less functions.
22:30:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: ah ok
22:30:17 <b_jonas> that makes sense
22:31:23 <b_jonas> and we'll get rid of non-prototyped function calls way before we get rid of varargs in C, because *printf, *scanf and open are here to stay.
22:31:53 <b_jonas> (I know some other vararg C functions that are probably here to stay, but they're used less than those)
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22:35:04 <spruit11> The fact that you can walk the C stack probably made C++ exceptions possible..
22:36:22 <b_jonas> spruit11: that might be true historically (I don't know), but these days you can't walk the C stack
22:36:40 <spruit11> It was a conjecture. No idea.
22:36:42 <b_jonas> and by "these days" that was already true 20 years ago
22:36:42 <fizzie> I've been browsing the c2x draft (there's one from Feb this year), and it's got a few headline-grabbing features. Like, `strdup` is finally in, and the [[foo]] attribute syntax has been ported back from C++ (though only for [[nodiscard]], [[maybe_unused]], [[deprecated]] and [[fallthrough]], all of which are merely for better diagnostics).
22:38:00 <fizzie> Oh, and old-style function definitions are out, which is almost relevant to the earlier discussion.
22:38:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there any feature that they could consider standardizing in the form of an attribute and isn't merely for diagnostics? hmm yes, there is, [[no_unique_address]], but that's so new it just didn't have a chance to get into C standard proposals yet
22:38:51 <zzo38> OK, strdup is in, now, but is memdup in yet?
22:39:03 <fizzie> (Sort-of unfortunately prototype-free declarations aren't out.)
22:39:16 <spruit11> Link to the c2x draft?
22:39:20 <fizzie> `memdup` is not.
22:39:21 <HackEso> memdup`? No such file or directory
22:39:35 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2478.pdf 
22:39:43 <spruit11> Thanks.
22:40:33 <fizzie> There are also a bunch of more recent documents at http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/wg14_document_log.htm but no newer full working draft.
22:40:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: there's no point to remove prototype-free declarations from the standard, we'll not remove them from real life because they'll still in use (for compatibility only, with default warning, not for new code), so removing it from the standard would be ... oh I see. yes, ignoring the real world and depreciating something that is in use would be exactly the sort of thing that those standard committees 
22:40:41 <b_jonas> occasionally try to do
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22:40:59 <fizzie> Well, they removed `gets`.
22:41:10 <fizzie> I suspect it's still in use.
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22:41:28 <b_jonas> spruit11: you can probably find it from http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/
22:42:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: did they remove asctime or ctime?
22:43:10 <spruit11> Hmm. I guess unwinding is done by just tracing links.
22:43:11 <fizzie> No, but they added asctime_r and ctime_r.
22:43:16 <fizzie> So maybe that's a step? 
22:43:31 <zzo38> Well, gets is the function they should remove.
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2020-06-10:

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01:53:57 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73477&oldid=73476 * Bigyihsuan * (+9122) 
01:54:09 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73478&oldid=73477 * Bigyihsuan * (-9) 
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02:10:28 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73479&oldid=73478 * Bigyihsuan * (+427) 
02:11:51 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73480&oldid=73479 * Bigyihsuan * (+124) 
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04:11:09 <oren> ꟇꟈꟉꟊꟵꟶ
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04:58:54 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73481&oldid=73480 * Bigyihsuan * (+1) 
05:09:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73482 * Bigyihsuan * (+51) /* Task List */ new section
05:09:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73483&oldid=73482 * Bigyihsuan * (+8) 
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06:38:08 <oren> English pony, from French poulenet, from Latin pullanus, from latin pullus cognate to Spanish pollo "chicken"
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09:24:21 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73484 * D * (+167) Create page for new language.
09:28:03 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73485&oldid=73484 * D * (+253) 
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09:29:57 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73486&oldid=73485 * D * (+397) 
09:31:15 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73487&oldid=73486 * D * (+276) 
09:32:53 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73488&oldid=73487 * D * (+399) 
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09:35:09 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73489&oldid=73488 * D * (+516) 
09:39:49 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73490&oldid=73489 * D * (+111) 
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10:25:49 <shachaf> Is it easy or hard to check whether a proposed clause is implied by existing SAT clauses in an instance?
10:32:15 <cpressey> Yes.
10:33:33 <rain1> thoughts on squarefree words?
10:36:31 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73491&oldid=73490 * A * (+185) 
10:36:46 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73492&oldid=73491 * A * (+33) 
10:37:32 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73493&oldid=73492 * A * (+165) 
10:37:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73494&oldid=73493 * A * (+0) 
10:39:08 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73495&oldid=73494 * A * (+117) 
10:40:15 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73496&oldid=73495 * A * (+144) 
10:40:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: hard, in that it's as hard as SAT solving in general
10:41:18 <b_jonas> which is NP-complete
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10:47:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73497&oldid=73496 * A * (+118) 
10:48:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73498&oldid=73497 * A * (+102) 
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10:54:57 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73499&oldid=73357 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Explain why you would want to see also
10:55:36 <esowiki> [[HUNTER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73500&oldid=73358 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Explain why you would want to see also
10:59:21 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73501&oldid=53351 * Chris Pressey * (+150) See also Revaver2pi
11:00:10 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73502&oldid=34906 * Chris Pressey * (+80) See also Burro
11:02:23 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73503&oldid=73502 * Chris Pressey * (+41) +cat
11:04:15 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73504&oldid=73503 * Chris Pressey * (+16) Dead link; Wayback machine does not have it either
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11:16:30 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73505&oldid=52938 * Chris Pressey * (+26) +cat
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11:46:56 <esowiki> [[Forked]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73506&oldid=54092 * Chris Pressey * (+1) From context it's quite clear there are not actually an infinite number of IPs running at any point
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11:51:58 <shachaf> What about special cases like learned clauses?
11:52:04 <shachaf> You could remember the resolution path but it might be long.
11:52:19 <shachaf> If the clause is short, I guess it can be pretty easy?
11:52:47 <shachaf> Hmm, can it?
11:56:09 <shachaf> Of course not.
11:56:25 <shachaf> I was thinkig about it all confusedly.
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13:05:53 <Taneb> Something I was thinking about recently is if a "shallowest path" SAT solver type thing could make something approximating a human-readable proof
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13:17:03 <int-e> Taneb: A related domain is assessing the difficulty of (NP-complete) puzzles. And you can see some difficulties there: a) humans incorporate patterns which may embed arbitrarily complex reasoning. b) we also tend to be happy to reason deeply as long as there's not much branching (how much branching people cope with may be a measure of their expertise).
13:17:37 <int-e> I'm sure this has been studied academically. But I never got interested enough to actually look.
13:18:37 <int-e> Puzzles (in NP) are probably easier than proofs because a large amount of the puzzle logic tends to be naturally expressed in clauses.
13:20:14 <int-e> (Though some mechanics aren't. There are a ton of puzzles where a path or an area needs to be connected, or you actually count something, which doesn't translate so well to CNF.)
13:20:15 <int-e> And obviously we have plenty of puzzles that are hard for PSPACE or worse.
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13:21:03 <int-e> (Which tend to exercise the visual planning part of our brain, which acts nothing like a SAT solver.)
13:27:53 <int-e> Taneb: that said, depth is certainly a factor, but so are branching, and size. And there are factors beyond the shape of the proof tree like the complexity of representing a subgoal, compression through lemmas... it's an interesting question but not an easy one at all.
13:43:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73507&oldid=36966 * Chris Pressey * (+401) 
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14:01:04 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73508 * Chris Pressey * (+2093) Add TM2Burro compiler, showing Burro is TC.
14:06:30 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73509&oldid=73501 * Chris Pressey * (+72) I submit that the language is Turing complete.
14:09:14 <esowiki> [[Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73510&oldid=73509 * Chris Pressey * (+77) Rephrase section about replicating brainfuck loops.
14:11:01 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73511&oldid=73508 * Chris Pressey * (+38) Note where the TM starts.
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14:47:43 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73513&oldid=73481 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) inter wiki link + move cats
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14:52:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73516&oldid=59760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */
14:54:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73517&oldid=73514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-42) /* See Also: */ why link to another langs interpreter?
14:55:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73518&oldid=73517 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* See also */
14:57:10 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73519&oldid=62688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External resources */
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16:09:17 <esowiki> [[Burro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73520&oldid=73510 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* See also */
16:11:49 <esowiki> [[Circles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73521&oldid=72427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) cats
16:12:20 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73522&oldid=71991 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-89) 
16:15:52 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73523&oldid=69291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) 
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19:06:56 <shachaf> So now my macro goes #define CYCLE(x) Thing *y = x; if (0)
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19:07:09 <shachaf> Is that too confusilating a macro?
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19:34:50 <zzo38> I had idea of a computer video card with a display program, which I may have mentioned some time ago, where the display program deals with programming the registers and calculating all of the offsets for vertical positioning (the video registers do not deal with vertical positioning at all). But one thing to consider is what exactly the set of video registers should be (although I have some ideas).
19:36:27 <zzo38> One thing I thought of is to have some sort of left/right split, with only one side supporting fine X scrolling and sprites, although making the timing for such a thing working properly might be difficult.
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20:18:50 <esowiki> [[Category:Quantum computing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73524&oldid=45374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 
20:20:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73525&oldid=73250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Quantumness */ if this belongs somewhere else on the page, move it
20:20:47 <esowiki> [[Semi-quantum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73526&oldid=59468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
20:22:03 <esowiki> [[SoT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73527&oldid=71969 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
20:24:26 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73528&oldid=73505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Commands */
20:26:38 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73529&oldid=73528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) /* Interpreter and syntax */ cats
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21:04:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1635) Created page with "This page would have many categories as an esolang. It is a [[:Category:Nondeterministic|nondeterministic]] [[:Category:High-level|high-level]] :Category:Non-textual|non-tex..."
21:04:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73535&oldid=73534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */
21:18:22 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73536 * Baidicoot * (+384) Created page with "Soviet Script is an implementation of a langusge on the joke language list where all functions are global and shared between users through a United Soviet Script Repository (U..."
21:18:56 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73537&oldid=73536 * Baidicoot * (+0) 
21:20:12 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73538&oldid=73537 * Baidicoot * (-1) 
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21:49:21 <zzo38> I thought of this effect for a Magic: the Gathering card:  Target a permanent you own. Shuffle all Auras attached to that permanent into their owner's libraries, and then redistribute the counters on that permanent among any number of other permanents of your choice, and then shuffle that permanent into your library.
21:51:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: that last effect could be annoying if you often use this on a token target, because then you still have to shuffle your library. of course, shuffling your library is sometimes an advantage, but still.
21:52:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: also something like this would probably have to cost blue and green
21:52:59 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Temporal Spring
21:53:01 <HackEso> Temporal Spring \ 1GU \ Sorcery \ Put target permanent on top of its owner's library. \ AP-C
21:53:18 <b_jonas> but I'm not convinced the complexity of that combination is worth it
21:53:24 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem like it would pull its weight
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21:56:02 <zzo38> OK. Still, it is different in some ways, and it could also be made an instant possibly. I don't know.
21:56:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's definitely different, and more powerful, I was just trying to figure out what colors it would need to be
21:56:57 <b_jonas> or perhaps less powerful because it only works on your own permanents? I dunno
21:57:06 <b_jonas> well, on permanents you own
21:57:11 <zzo38> Probaly both; more in some ways and less in other ways.
21:59:54 <zzo38> This is another card I made up and is the most recently added card to by "zivstr.db" set:  Rune Deletion {2(W/U)(W/U)} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, remove all counters from enchanted permanent. ;; Enchanted permanent loses all ability text.
22:01:50 <b_jonas> what is "loses all ability text"? do you mean just a Humble ability, or do you want a text-replacement effect?
22:01:56 <b_jonas> `card-by-name humble
22:01:56 <HackEso> Humble \ 1W \ Instant \ Until end of turn, target creature loses all abilities and has base power and toughness 0/1. \ US-U, EMA-C \  \ Humble Budoka \ 1G \ Creature -- Human Monk \ 2/2 \ Shroud (This creature can't be the target of spells or abilities.) \ CHK-C \  \ Humble Defector \ 1R \ Creature -- Human Rogue \ 2/1 \ {T}: Draw two cards. Target opponent gains control of Humble Defector. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ FRF-U,
22:04:02 <zzo38> It is a layer 3 (text replacement) effect, rather than a layer 6 effect like Humble, so it is a bit different.
22:04:14 <int-e> . o O ( Tappen im Dunkeln - Magic-Spieler klagen über schlechte Beleuchtung. )
22:05:17 <zzo38> int-e: What is that, is it German?
22:05:41 <int-e> (For b_jonas I guess. I just read the first part as a headline right after reading parts of the discussion here. It really means stumbing around in the dark, so it's hard to translate.)
22:06:32 <int-e> I added "Magic players complain about bad lighting."
22:07:16 <zzo38> O, OK.
22:27:38 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73539&oldid=73498 * A * (+191) 
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22:38:04 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73544&oldid=73543 * A * (+153) 
22:38:47 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73545&oldid=73544 * A * (+75) 
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22:44:14 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73548&oldid=73547 * A * (+61) 
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23:25:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * NotVeryGoodAtThis *  New user account
23:33:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73549&oldid=73450 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+329) added my intro
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23:37:12 <esowiki> [[User:NotVeryGoodAtThis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73550 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+6) Created page with "Oh hey"
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23:38:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73551&oldid=73549 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+18) added wiki links to my intro
23:40:50 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73552&oldid=73538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Cats
23:44:45 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73553&oldid=73535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) 
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2020-06-11:

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00:29:10 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73554&oldid=73513 * Bigyihsuan * (+153) 
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01:20:10 <tswett[m]> Anyone have a nice example of an easily computable function which is a bijection, but whose inverse is difficult to compute?
01:20:56 <tswett[m]> I just thought of a function which technically qualifies, but whose domain (which is identical to its codomain) is itself very difficult to compute.
01:21:32 <tswett[m]> The domain is the collection of all 1000x1000 grids of bits which loop in Conway's Game of Life.
01:21:50 <tswett[m]> It's easy to compute the next state; it's hard to compute the previous state.
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02:06:23 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. Let it be known that I oppose this kind of behaviour, regardless of the reason. (They say it is because those cards are racist. What they should do then is to stop making racist cards; they shouldn't erase the history of the cards.)
02:07:30 <zzo38> There are valid reasons to ban some cards in some formats, but probably not in Vintage.
02:07:49 <zzo38> They can, of course, put those cards in the reserve list and never print them again; that is OK too, I suppose.
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02:20:06 <zzo38> Unfortunately, the change in the multiverse ID number makes even more of a mess; if they do reverse that decision, then that card will need to have two multiverse ID numbers for the same printing, and that is no good either. Removing the new multiverse ID number is also bad, because now that number is assigned for that card and someone might use the new multiverse ID number.
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02:29:34 <zzo38> (This banning also has an unfortunate interaction with one of the silver bordered cards, and trying to deal with that (even if they undo their changes) would probably make even more of a mess than it already is. Well, I think.)
02:31:31 <zzo38> (Of course, if they are banned in some formats due to game balance problems (or because the cards are rare and you are playing a format that forbids rare cards), then they should remain banned, but this should presumably not include Vintage, I think.)
02:38:41 <Cale> I don't know, it seems fine to me for them to eliminate cards from the game if those cards no longer reflect their company's values in some way.
02:39:49 <Cale> The fact that Invoke Prejudice had a multiverse ID of 1488 is pretty suspicious.
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02:47:14 <zzo38> :It is probably just a coincidence. But it doesn't matter. They shouldn't change the past. They can change the future instead, I think. If they no longer like those cards, then they should not longer print them.
02:49:15 <Cale> I'm not sure this counts as changing the past
02:49:34 <zzo38> If you don't like the number 13, 666, 1488, 1984, or whatever, that is too bad, because in a list of consecutively numbered items (or pages, or cards) with that many or more items, those numbers will be used in their proper place. (I also don't like elevators omitting 13, of course.)
02:51:30 <Cale> Yeah, but when a racially-charged card whose image depicts pointy-hooded figures just happens to get a number by which a white supremacist slogan are identified, that's a hell of a coincidence.
02:52:16 <Cale> I see it as well within their rights to rearrange all the card IDs as much as they want
02:52:42 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is a hell of a coincidence. But I think that rearranging multiverse IDs (regardless of why) is problematic.
02:53:14 <zzo38> Among other things, it goes against the W3C's policy, I think.
02:53:49 <Cale> I mean, it affects some URLs, but despite the W3C's wishes, URLs rarely stay the same for very long.
02:54:31 <Cale> It's probably best that no other card take the place of that one, just to avoid confusion
02:54:42 <Cale> I don't know why they bothered assigning it a new ID actually
02:55:47 <Cale> I guess because they get to post the message that it's banned from tournament play etc. that way
02:57:06 <zzo38> Yes, it is best that no other card (or other printing of the same card in a different set, which fortunately there isn't any) takes that multiverse ID.
02:58:17 <Cale> But if you look at, say, Hearthstone -- it hasn't had to deal with this particular problem, but cards are revised all the time in that game, and people's collections are forcibly updated along with it.
02:58:43 <zzo38> I think Hearthstone is quite a different problem entirely.
02:58:45 <Cale> Of course, they try not to do it too much, but it still seems a reasonable thing to do
02:59:04 <Cale> It's a bit different because there aren't physical bits of cardboard in the world
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03:00:29 <zzo38> Yes, but it can still be a problem, and a different one. You might want to use old rules, you might not like their software, etc. Actually, Magic: the Gathering also has the problem of old versions of the rules and Oracle texts not properly being archived, I think.
03:01:35 <zzo38> What ais523 did seems reasonable though: The primary key of a card definition is the name and version together, rather than only the name. That partially avoids the problem in Hearthstone, at least.
03:02:07 <ais523> I don't think I did that?
03:02:20 <zzo38> Of course, it is too late to change it now in either Magic: the Gathering or in Hearthstone, I think.
03:02:30 <ais523> name+version is the normal primary key in M:tG databases, though (except for Oracle-alikes)
03:03:23 <Cale> As I see it, there's no responsibility for the maker of a game to continue to support any part of it, or maintain historical information for themselves if they want to make changes. Obviously, people who are interested in the history of the game can maintain that information.
03:03:25 <zzo38> ais523: You did; I have the document you wrote on my computer.
03:03:52 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I maintain history of the rules as far back as possible. Rule history and Oracle history are very important for puzzles.
03:04:08 <ais523> zzo38: oh, you mean not for M:tG
03:04:33 <ais523> that was a bit different because version numbers are part of the card, the intention was that reprinting a card would use the same version number, but a different number could be used for, e.g., balance fixes
03:05:01 <ais523> zzo38: are there any puzzles that require using multiple different sets of rules over the course of the puzzle?
03:05:26 <zzo38> You may be right about other M:tG databases,  but I don't really know. I think the artwork should remain archived, even if they would never be reprinted.
03:06:26 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know of any such puzzles, and most puzzles I know of don't specify a rules datestamp at all (except my own, to avoid this kind of problem).
03:07:22 <zzo38> What you say about version numbers, I know what you are saying, and it makes sense, but I meant as an alternative to what is probably being done in Hearthstone (at least, what I have heard; I think my brother plays), and not about Magic: the Gathering.
03:10:07 <ais523> I'm generally in favour of old versions / rules engines / patches of computer games being available in case they're superior to the current version (or more interesting in some other way), or just for historical interest
03:10:30 <ais523> this is one of the reasons I dislike "inherently online" games because they often have no way to play an old version
03:10:39 <zzo38> Yes, I agree with that.
03:11:01 <Cale> Yeah, all else being equal, that's preferable
03:14:57 <Cale> Chess 1.2 Patch Notes: * Fixed a bug introduced with faster pawns in 1.1 where pawns would sometimes capture a piece on different square from the one where they were going. * Fixed a bug where castling sometimes wouldn't work when unrelated back-rank squares were under attack. * We're aware of the bugs where pawns can't capture the piece that's in front of them, and can't move diagonally in cases where they're not 
03:14:58 <Cale> capturing a piece, and are working on fixes - stay tuned in the next patch.
03:16:09 <zzo38> (There are other reasons to dislike "inherently online" games too; the reason you specify is only one of the reasons.)
03:23:59 <zzo38> Does anyone still maintain the old Oracle texts and artwork? Does anyone maintain even changes to multiverse ID numbers if needed? What about rule changes? I think Yawgatog used to do some of these, but no longer does. I have a directory on my computer of all versions of the rules since 2007-05-01, but I am interested in older rules too, because there are puzzles older than that.
03:32:02 <zzo38> I reconstructed an old puzzle from the solution, but it doesn't work with modern rules.
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04:26:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73557&oldid=73556 * A * (+114) 
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08:06:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73558&oldid=73525 * Chris Pressey * (-6) "natural language" is common and accepted terminology
08:09:12 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73559&oldid=68129 * Chris Pressey * (-6) Rewrite for clarity
08:13:49 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73560&oldid=73559 * Chris Pressey * (+124) More clarify contents of category as they currently are
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08:21:59 <esowiki> [[SMETANA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73561&oldid=65621 * Chris Pressey * (+27) +cat
08:56:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73562 * D * (+265) Created page with "== An example program please? == This language indeed made me laugh. But I could never understand anything without examples, care to program an example of Hello World, for exa..."
09:04:35 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73563&oldid=73557 * D * (+768) 
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09:19:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73564&oldid=34908 * Chris Pressey * (+694) Continue a conversation from 8 years ago, why not
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09:23:30 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73565&oldid=71743 * Chris Pressey * (+4) +link
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09:33:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73566&oldid=73562 * Chris Pressey * (+371) 
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09:43:55 <esowiki> [[Forked]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73567&oldid=73506 * Chris Pressey * (+12) /* Examples (golfy) */ +links
09:44:24 <esowiki> [[Reverse cat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73568 * Chris Pressey * (+25) Create redirect
09:49:05 <esowiki> [[FrancePROG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73569&oldid=73530 * Chris Pressey * (+27) +cat
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09:54:55 <esowiki> [[Onoz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73570&oldid=38061 * Chris Pressey * (+4) +link, make capitalization consistent
10:00:25 <esowiki> [[Cat program]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73571&oldid=38761 * Chris Pressey * (+183) Add pro tip.
10:34:12 <cpressey> Suppose R0, R1, R2... Rn are rewrite rules (each one has the form Pn -> Sn where Pn is the pattern and Sn is the substitution). Now suppose Rn + Rm means: if Pn matches you apply Rn, if Pm matches you apply Rm. And suppose Rn * Rm means: if both Pn and Pm match you apply both Rn and Rm.
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10:39:19 <cpressey> There are obviously overlaps there that you'd want to deal with, i.e. in both + and *, what if both Pn and Pm match?
10:40:18 <cpressey> But, assuming you took care of that, it seems like it would be a nice system to work with.
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10:47:51 <cpressey> int-e: You know something about rewriting, have you ever seen something like that, does it have a name?
10:58:44 <cpressey> Obviously, | and & might be more evocative symbols for those operators, than + and *
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12:17:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * JensBouman *  New user account
12:24:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73572&oldid=73551 * JensBouman * (+191) /* Introductions */
12:29:36 <esowiki> [[Piet]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73573&oldid=50453 * JensBouman * (+139) /* External resources */
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12:43:26 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73574&oldid=73565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Command language */
12:43:49 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73575&oldid=73574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* OS */
12:45:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73576&oldid=73566 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+510) /* How are folders stored on disk? */
12:47:47 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73577&oldid=61305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) replace <i> with ''italic''
12:55:19 <esowiki> [[Template:N]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) Created page with "<span style="color: transparent;">N</span><noinclude>  For when you don't want any content, but some has to be there.</noinclude>"
12:55:42 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73579&oldid=73575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6880) /* Code golfing potential */ add an example
12:55:53 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73580&oldid=73579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Hello World */ terminology
12:56:58 <esowiki> [[Tplntivhtpaavwtpi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73581&oldid=68502 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) cats
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12:58:55 <esowiki> [[Reverse cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73582&oldid=73568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Changed redirect target from [[Cat program]] to [[Cat program#Reverse cat]]
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13:09:23 <esowiki> [[Deque]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73584&oldid=45298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) no longer a stub
13:11:37 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73585&oldid=73553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+559) /* Instructions */
13:11:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73586&oldid=73585 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) /* Hello World (probably) */
13:27:54 <int-e> cpressey: Sounds a bit odd, mainly because we're usually operating on trees so a global conjunction usually isn't very meaningful. There are various forms of conditional rewriting which can potentially test applicability of rules wrt. the redex at hand...
13:28:19 <int-e> cpressey: the disjunction of course is the default mode of operations--pick any applicable rule and apply it.
13:28:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73587&oldid=73586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+817) /* Instructions */
13:29:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73588&oldid=73587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Categories */
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13:35:23 <esowiki> [[(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73589&oldid=72571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Turing-completeness */ $ is a FSM
13:37:06 <cpressey> int-e: Thanks. It intrigues me. I may play with it a bit, see how oddly it turns out.
13:39:14 <int-e> Another thing that I've seen is a maximal multistep, in which one picks a maximal set of non-overlapping redexes in a term, and contracts them simultaneously.
13:40:00 <int-e> So that's a kind of conjunction. But people usually do this with orthogonal systems (which make the maximal multistep unique...)
13:45:06 <esowiki> [[Cubically]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73590&oldid=70747 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) cats
13:45:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73591&oldid=73588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) 
13:51:39 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73592&oldid=71371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* FarTooGeneral */
13:57:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73593&oldid=73591 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) /* Instructions */
14:08:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73594&oldid=73593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Instructions */
14:10:12 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73595&oldid=73594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* Hello World */
14:20:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73596&oldid=73595 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+219) /* Instructions */
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14:43:44 <esowiki> [[Network Headache]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73597&oldid=53696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Operators */
14:45:07 <esowiki> [[Help, WarDoq!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73598&oldid=53188 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implementation */ cat
14:53:22 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73599&oldid=73596 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) pipe trick
14:54:42 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73600&oldid=73599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
15:04:37 <esowiki> [[MiniPig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73601&oldid=57110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Computational Class */
15:06:36 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73602&oldid=73379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Simple translation to and from Smallfuck */
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15:37:44 <esowiki> [[Compute]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73603&oldid=57880 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Official Python Implementation */ cats
15:38:02 <esowiki> [[Compute]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73604&oldid=73603 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* See also */
15:38:38 <esowiki> [[Compute/IO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73605&oldid=35593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Interpreters */
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16:05:40 <fizzie> "NaN.aN" is a nice number.
16:06:30 <esowiki> [[King Ethan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73606&oldid=55205 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+184) 
16:08:40 <esowiki> [[Flower]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73607&oldid=44915 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) Cats
16:09:28 <esowiki> [[Algebra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73608&oldid=44911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) catS
16:14:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: Yawgatog still has the old rules diffs, they go back a few years before 2007, but for rules older than that, I've no idea. 
16:16:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: did Scryfall have these large downloadable files https://scryfall.com/docs/api/bulk-data the last time we looked, or did it only have the more interactive API?
16:22:46 <b_jonas> "Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. ... They say it is because those cards are racist." wait what? do you have a link?
16:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I do, and I think that it is a misapplication of anti-racism. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/depictions-racism-magic-2020-06-10
16:25:34 <zzo38> (Misapplication of anti-racism and anti-[other bad stuff too] seems to be too common.)
16:27:32 <b_jonas> including Crusade?
16:28:09 <b_jonas> that's rather ridiculous
16:29:01 <b_jonas> so those are more racist than Eyeblight's Ending?
16:31:33 <b_jonas> nice, they ban Cleanse, but not Virtue's Ruin because nobody cares about Portal
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16:39:39 <zzo38> People have made these same complaints, although my own complaints are different. They should not ban those cards in Vintage, and otherwise the cards should be banned only due to the game balance purposes (or because some of the cards are rare and they are playing Pauper format, which forbids rare cards). And they should never change Multiverse ID numbers.
16:39:52 <zzo38> The damage has been done, but trying to undo those changes might make it worse.
16:41:52 <zzo38> (Removing the card images is probably the least bad thing, since the Oracle text and rulings are still there and you can probably find the pictures elsewhere anyways.)
16:42:47 <b_jonas> "the artwork should remain archived" => Gatherer is missing so many card versions that it hardly matters if they lose the images of a few more, it's just that announcing this selection of cards as banned was probably a bad decision for htem
16:43:53 <b_jonas> as for Multiverse ids, I don't really trust those as being constant. haven't the ids changed when they replaced Gatherer with New Gatherer, and before that when they introduced Gatherer? hmm, I'll have to look up one of my old Oracle dumps
16:43:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is true; Gatherer is missing so many card versions, which of course is a different problem, but others archive them anyways.
16:44:40 <zzo38> I don't know, although I seem to remember changing some links to the old card database with a new link, and the old ID numbers continuing to work.
16:46:14 <b_jonas> hmm no, the multiverse ids were in the old Gatherer pages too
16:46:20 <b_jonas> so they probably haven't changed
16:46:54 <b_jonas> "others archive them anyways." => no, there's only one group that archives them, it's Scryfall, and it's quite possible that even they missed something
16:47:13 <b_jonas> and/or that they will just give up and won't be able to continue the work from their income 
16:47:29 <zzo38> O, OK, but if they did miss something, I should think that you should notify them of anything that they have missed.
16:47:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: if they did miss something, it'd be an obscure card I've never heard about
16:49:46 <zzo38> O, OK.
16:50:21 <b_jonas> I did notify them about interface problems, as opposed to missing cards
16:51:31 <b_jonas> they are connected with multiple large card market websites, so any card that's on sale somewhere will be in their database (possibly after some processing delay)
16:51:42 <b_jonas> on sale as a single that is
16:51:57 <b_jonas> they can't guess what's in booster packs sold unclosed
16:52:17 <b_jonas> and a card version has to be really obscure to not exist on sale
17:01:30 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73609&oldid=60457 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) unpipe
17:02:37 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73610&oldid=73609 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* An example: a truth machine */ link+cat
17:05:22 <esowiki> [[Paintfuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73611&oldid=69758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) cats
17:06:29 <esowiki> [[First.go]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73612&oldid=70786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* External resources */ cats
17:11:33 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73613&oldid=68221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) 
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17:38:17 <zzo38> I also thought to make up a puzzle with these seven cards. What I thought of is: Invoke Prejudice on the battlefield under your opponent's control, Cleanse and Jihad (and maybe also Imprison) in your hand, and the rest in the battlefield under your control. However, I like ideas such as "Any Card Will Do" (p 10-11 of the Magic: the Puzzling book by Rosewater).
17:57:31 <esowiki> [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73614&oldid=72362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Syntax */ shouldnt it be "orange"?
18:09:45 <esowiki> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73615&oldid=73364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
18:13:04 <esowiki> [[Trite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73616&oldid=70506 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) cats
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18:15:23 <esowiki> [[Category:ICFP contest]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73618&oldid=39184 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) 
18:15:31 <esowiki> [[\BV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73619&oldid=39182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
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18:59:16 <esowiki> [[Piet]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73620&oldid=73573 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+6504) Added a lot of stuff
19:00:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73621&oldid=34739 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+210) 
19:00:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73622&oldid=73621 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+0) 
19:01:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73623&oldid=73622 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+2) 
19:32:23 <esowiki> [[CA-1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73624&oldid=44118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) /* Turing completeness */ catS
19:35:36 <esowiki> [[Scotty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73625&oldid=46807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Interpreter */ cats
19:36:20 <esowiki> [[Generic 2D Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73626&oldid=68874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-217) /* Examples */ rm redcat & sigs
19:45:44 <shachaf> zzo38: I got rid of the « and » character.
19:45:47 <shachaf> Do you like this?
19:48:16 <zzo38> Got rod if it in what?
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20:06:29 <int-e> . o O ( <shachaf> zzo38: I got rid of the  and  character. )
20:07:35 <shachaf> zzo38: The file I linked before.
20:07:41 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
20:08:04 <shachaf> Is GNU-style options-after-arguments behavior a good idea?
20:10:30 <zzo38> I don't really like the GNU-style options-after-arguments.
20:14:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't like gnu style options after options, but we can't get rid of it now
20:14:48 <shachaf> Options after options?
20:15:11 <b_jonas> so you have to assume that any program may or may not accept options after arguments, depending on what libc you compile it with, and be careful with arguments that start with a hyphen accordingly
20:15:18 <b_jonas> options after non-option arguments, sorry
20:18:58 <zzo38> I think that in some programs it is useful to specify options after another argument that takes its own options, such as if it an interpreter, then presumably the options for the interpreter should come before the filename, and options for the program being interpreted come after the filename.
20:21:00 <zzo38> Some programs use some other way to specify, such as in Ghostscript, if you write -- before the filename of the PostScript program, then options before -- are the options for Ghostscript (such as safe/unsafe mode, or the output device selection), and the options after the filename are the arguments to the PostScript program.
20:22:40 <zzo38> Another example (currently not implemented in any implementation I know of, though) is NES/Famicom emulation. The options for the interpreter itself come before the first cartridge filename; after that are the mapper arguments if any (most mappers do not use any arguments), and if a mapper argument is another cartridge, that one can in turn take its own mapper arguments, etc.
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20:51:37 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73627&oldid=73554 * Bigyihsuan * (+1723) loops
21:04:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73628&oldid=73600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-125) /* Instruction order */ rm outdated section
21:05:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73629&oldid=73628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Instructions */
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21:20:20 <esowiki> [[Rev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73631&oldid=73630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 
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21:57:27 <zzo38> What is the Plan 9 bitmap format? Apparently Ghostscript can write out this format. It seems to be like Netpbm format 4, but with a different header: gp_fprintf(pstream, "%11d %11d %11d %11d %11d ", 0, 0, 0, pdev->width, pdev->height) 
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23:06:24 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73632&oldid=73620 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+1) fixed a typo
23:06:46 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73633&oldid=73632 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+0) fixed a typo
23:07:23 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73634&oldid=73633 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (-1) fixed a typo
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23:09:58 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73635&oldid=73634 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+14) clarified roll / fixed inconsistencies
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2020-06-12:

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00:33:53 <esowiki> [[Probie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73636&oldid=70965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* QUINE */ CATS
00:35:14 <esowiki> [[Goldfish/Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73637&oldid=53792 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) 
00:37:24 <esowiki> [[Wenyan-lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73638&oldid=68301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
00:38:45 <esowiki> [[Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73639&oldid=69744 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* See also */
00:38:59 <esowiki> [[Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73640&oldid=73639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* External resources */
00:39:08 <esowiki> [[Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73641&oldid=73640 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* See also */
00:44:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73642&oldid=73564 * Ais523 * (+335) /* Concatenative explication */ Underload and Burro are different in this respect
00:44:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73643&oldid=73642 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Concatenative explication */ I can't count
01:02:34 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73644&oldid=72573 * UltimateProGrammer * (+1216) Added spaghettiscript ex
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04:12:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Xanzi *  New user account
04:16:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73645&oldid=73572 * Xanzi * (+198) Hello World
04:35:49 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73646 * Xanzi * (+2230) made the page!
04:43:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Xanzi *  uploaded "[[File:Capture.png]]"
04:44:17 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73648&oldid=73646 * Xanzi * (-1315) fixed formatting
04:46:49 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73649&oldid=73648 * Xanzi * (-149) Got rid of bad formatting
04:47:03 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73650&oldid=73649 * Xanzi * (+1) 
04:48:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Zacchro *  New user account
05:00:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73651&oldid=73645 * Zacchro * (+153) 
05:00:44 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73652&oldid=73644 * Zacchro * (+2321) added grass, pixiedust, pyth
05:02:42 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73653&oldid=73650 * Zacchro * (+1705) 
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10:49:54 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73654&oldid=73563 * D * (+448) 
10:53:21 <cpressey> int-e: Those two rewrite-rule-operators turn out to form a semiring (nearly). But, they also turn to be, not what I want (in terms of what I thought they might be practical for.)
10:56:26 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73655&oldid=73654 * D * (+808) 
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11:09:44 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73656&oldid=73655 * D * (+909) 
11:10:41 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73657&oldid=71593 * D * (+0) 
11:14:56 <cpressey> Changing Rn & Rm to mean "apply first Rn then Rm in sequence" probably also gets a semiring.
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11:17:01 <cpressey> + is associative and commutative.  0 is an artifical rule that never matches anything.  & is associative.  1 is an artificial rule that can always be applied, but which never changes anything.
11:18:01 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73658&oldid=73656 * D * (+375) 
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11:20:23 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73659&oldid=73658 * D * (+288) 
11:22:02 <cpressey> To be clearer, Rn & Rm => "If Rn can be applied and then Rm can be applied, then apply Rn and then apply Rm" -- that way R & 0 = 0 for all R.
11:23:12 <cpressey> Hm, maybe & isn't associative
11:24:12 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73660&oldid=73659 * D * (+80) 
11:26:19 <rain1> hell
11:26:21 <rain1> hello
11:27:13 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73661&oldid=73660 * D * (+45) 
11:29:30 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73662&oldid=73661 * D * (+174) 
11:30:04 <cpressey> hi rain1 
11:30:56 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73663&oldid=73662 * D * (-14) Fix spacing, etc.
11:34:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73664&oldid=73576 * D * (+308) 
11:37:51 <rain1> hey
11:38:04 <rain1> im using sagemath for galois theory calculations, it is very good
11:38:52 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73665&oldid=73663 * D * (-4) 
11:39:18 <b_jonas> rain1: try https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=940327
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11:40:00 <rain1> oh.. these are hard
11:42:27 <b_jonas> also https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 and the stuff it links to
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11:42:59 <rain1> ty!
11:49:03 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73666&oldid=73665 * D * (+9) I'll do it later.
11:56:18 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73667&oldid=73666 * D * (+30) Swapping operands might be quite useful here.
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11:57:20 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73668&oldid=73667 * D * (+2) 
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12:35:30 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73669&oldid=73580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Hello World */
12:38:44 <esowiki> [[Pixiedust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73670&oldid=73653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) 
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16:17:01 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73671&oldid=73629 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Instructions */
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17:02:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73672&oldid=73671 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Instructions */
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17:55:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: you didn't react to https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-06-11.html#ldd yesterday, so repeating just in case: get card set data dumps from scryfall every few months, see https://scryfall.com/docs/api/bulk-data
17:56:05 <b_jonas> or I might have missed your reacton
18:10:12 <zzo38> OK. How big is the data? Are incremental updates possible, to store only the cards whose data has changed?
18:11:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: that page gives numbers. I don't think it has incremental updates using those bulk dumps, maybe look at the rest of the api help
18:12:08 <zzo38> OK, I will look
18:25:41 <zzo38> I looked at the changelog and it look like they have timestamp URLs. I haven't checked if previous versions are still available though or not
18:30:40 <zzo38> Are all of the card scans correctly aligned?
18:31:57 <zzo38> (The main reason for wanting aligned scans, I think, is if you want to substitute the Oracle text while keeping the same artwork; this may be relevant when rendering puzzles, for example.)
18:33:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think not always at first, because they upload preliminary photos of cards they haven't obtained yet, but for cards in English already released in large volume randomized boosters for a week probably less
18:34:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think they have an api to serve just the art box without a frame too
18:37:38 <zzo38> Well, as long as the art box is correctly aligned (and the resolution is correct), then you could construct the frame by yourself, I suppose.
18:39:15 <b_jonas> not with these modern cards that have all sorts of nonsense
18:39:48 <b_jonas> annoying custom art in the text box of every fucking colorless card
18:40:25 <b_jonas> new frame elements every year
18:42:38 <int-e> how about they fork the whole thing ;)
18:42:56 <int-e> Like "M:tG classic" and "M:tG modern"
18:43:20 <zzo38> O, I suppose that is correct. But you could then render it without extending the art outside of the art box, I suppose.
18:44:10 <zzo38> Or, something else I have wanted, is an extended version of the old style frame, with more room for text (and possibly more room for art too, at least horizontally).
18:44:55 <b_jonas> int-e: as in take the snapshot in 2012, no new cards, bugfixes only? yes, that may make a better game
18:46:19 <zzo38> I don't know if the size of the art box would then be correct for modern cards, but, maybe it is, I don't know.
18:47:05 <int-e> b_jonas: I had something different in mind: Make new cards but stick to the old, more stringent layout conventions. Maybe have crappier artwork and less saturated colors as well ;)
18:47:39 <int-e> And I'm not quite serious.
18:47:52 <zzo38> I like much of the old style artwork, although a few of the new ones are good too.
18:51:10 <int-e> b_jonas: It's worth noting that I'm stuck in time wrt M:tG. I have bascially not seen any of the new things since 2010.
18:53:21 <zzo38> I always keep track of changes to the rules these days, although I have not always seen all (or any) of the new cards.
18:54:42 <int-e> too esoteric for me ;)
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19:42:50 <zzo38> I also invented a version control format for data in SQLite databases, for use with TeXnicard; some of its features are specific to TeXnicard but it could be adapted for other uses too. Maybe it can also be used for keeping track of Oracle changes in Magic: the Gathering, too.
19:43:10 <rain1> What does TeXnicard do?
19:43:35 <esowiki> [[VeriBasic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73673&oldid=58396 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) 
19:44:21 <zzo38> rain1: TeXnicard is a program for making databases of, statistics of, collaboration of (that is what the version control files are for), and rendering, of cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering and other card games.
19:44:27 <int-e> . o O ( It keeps zzo38 busy. )
19:44:29 <zzo38> (including making up your own card game)
19:44:58 <zzo38> It is an alternative to Magic Set Editor.
19:45:08 <esowiki> [[Vrty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73674&oldid=57501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) 
19:45:26 <esowiki> [[Vrty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73675&oldid=73674 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-39) 
19:45:28 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository at http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
19:46:05 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73676&oldid=69267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-33) 
19:49:39 <zzo38> I would hope that anyone who is interested in TeXnicard can help with this project of TeXnicard. Do you?
19:50:47 <rain1> I see
19:50:51 <rain1> that's a good idea
19:51:19 <esowiki> [[MATL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73677&oldid=52235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Fibonacci sequence */ cat
19:58:22 <zzo38> (There are many features of MSE that I don't like.)
19:59:53 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73678&oldid=73672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+179) 
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20:19:07 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3009) Created page with "'''Writeover''' is a [[string]]-uncertainty language by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] made in 2019 or 2020.  =="String-uncertainty language"?== Rather than being a string-ma..."
20:19:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73680&oldid=73452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* W */ + [[Writeover]]
20:20:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73681&oldid=73380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Languages */
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20:22:15 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73682&oldid=73679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Syntax */
20:22:39 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73683&oldid=73682 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Curly braces */ grm
20:30:27 <zzo38> The programming languages used in TeXnicard are C, SQL, and PostScript. If you wish to design fonts, then it is also helpful to know METAFONT (although you might also be able to use other programs to produce the fonts in TFM and PK format; that works too). If you are only making templates and not modifying TeXnicard itself, then C programming is not needed, but SQL and PostScript are.
20:36:49 <esowiki> [[Semper dissolubilis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73684&oldid=70035 * Hakerh400 * (-41) 
20:57:50 <esowiki> [[YABALL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73685&oldid=47130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */ cat
21:00:18 <esowiki> [[Anguish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73686&oldid=58264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) CAT
21:02:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gregor Richards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73687&oldid=22845 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) unsigned
21:04:44 <esowiki> [[Kill]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73688&oldid=66932 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* External resources */ cats
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21:47:30 <zzo38> I thought of a new card "Librarian's Wall" that when it blocks, fateseal 1 and then the active player draws a card. Do you have idea to set the toughness, mana cost, etc?
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2020-06-13:

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06:18:19 <shachaf> I realized why I'm always confused about "reduction to/from": I'm always wondering whether it means "turn an A oracle into a B oracle" or "turn an A problem into a B problem".
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07:22:23 <shachaf> Oh man, apparently int-e is famous for counting Sudoku puzzles.
07:22:33 <shachaf> I mean, counting solutions. I guess they aren't really puzzles at that point.
07:24:14 <rain1> how many did he count
07:26:17 <shachaf> All of them, I think.
07:28:27 <Arcorann> http://pi.math.cornell.edu/~mec/Summer2009/Mahmood/Count.html <-- is it this?
07:31:37 <rain1> I like this http://sudopedia.enjoysudoku.com/Canonical_grid.html
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10:21:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you want an actual librarian wall, try https://scryfall.com/card/cns/101/minamo-scrollkeeper . that's the one that makes me think that not only Ravnica is the same plane as Trantor, but somehow Kamigawa is too
10:22:45 <b_jonas> because come on, a library that continues to function while the whole rest of the planet is in a war, that is obviously Trantor
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11:09:52 <b_jonas> fungot, which of sunrise and sundown do the words "dawn", "dusk", "twilight" refer to?
11:09:52 <fungot> b_jonas: that's intermediate values in cps isn't it? and what if the second program ever written.) which was the last time, it seems
11:12:28 <Arcorann> Context?
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11:25:06 <fizzie> . o O (And why don't people usually specify whether they mean the civil, nautical, or astronomical twilight?)
11:28:59 <Arcorann> Probably it's because the difference isn't that well known
11:31:05 <fizzie> `` wn twilight -over | grep gloam  # huh, those last two I hadn't heard of
11:31:06 <HackEso> 1. (1) twilight, dusk, gloaming, gloam, nightfall, evenfall, fall, crepuscule, crepuscle -- (the time of day immediately following sunset; "he loved the twilight"; "they finished before the fall of night")
11:31:37 <fizzie> They sound more like a particularly unappealing particle physics terms.
11:33:04 <fizzie> Heh, you get the dusk timing infobox out of Google when searching for "crepuscule".
11:43:40 <b_jonas> crapuscule? yeah, it does sound like that
11:47:16 <Arcorann> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpuscle <-- this might be what you're thinking of
11:47:39 <fizzie> Probably.
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12:22:15 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73689&oldid=73683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+289) /* Backquote */
12:28:20 <esowiki> [[Philosophy Script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73690&oldid=37036 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) cats
12:28:29 <esowiki> [[Philosophy Script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73691&oldid=73690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
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12:30:21 <esowiki> [[Shoelips]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73692&oldid=43392 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* External Resources */ cats
12:31:07 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73693&oldid=73689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) /* Syntax */
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12:47:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73694&oldid=73678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+809) 
12:51:05 <esowiki> [[BF+BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73695&oldid=47141 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) cats
12:52:25 <int-e> shachaf: the best part of that story is that way later it turned out that the number had already been posted a couple of years earlier (without giving a method) in some usenet post.
12:54:54 <esowiki> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73696&oldid=72153 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) /* Development environments */ cats
12:55:01 <esowiki> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73697&oldid=73696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* See also */
12:55:41 <esowiki> [[Quine (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73698&oldid=72627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+177) cats + see also
12:58:15 <esowiki> [[Quine (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73699&oldid=73698 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* See also */ forgot a cat
12:58:30 <esowiki> [[Quine (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73700&oldid=73699 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* See also */ forgot a cat
12:58:53 <esowiki> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73701&oldid=73697 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* See Also */ cats
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13:25:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73702&oldid=73694 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4388) delete this page
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13:29:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  uploaded "[[File:Varigen Hello World.png]]"
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13:34:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  uploaded "[[File:Varigen Truth-machine.png]]"
13:34:45 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4626) Created page with "'''Varigen''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It is an [[:Category:Uncomputable|uncomputable]] [[:Category:Output only|output-only]] :Category:High-level|h..."
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13:36:36 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73706&oldid=73705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) /* Examples */
13:36:47 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73707&oldid=73706 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) /* Truth-machine using the optional .stdin file */
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13:37:33 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73708&oldid=73707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Program format */
13:38:12 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73709&oldid=73708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Input */
13:39:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73710&oldid=73680 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* V */ + [[Varigen]]
13:40:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73711&oldid=73681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+212) /* Languages */
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15:12:12 <esowiki> [[Madeye]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73712&oldid=50792 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) rm sig + cat + rm empty section
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15:14:25 <esowiki> [[Ax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73713&oldid=40990 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) cats
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15:28:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Yggdrasil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73714 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+885) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Yggdrasil''' is a tree-based esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==[[Hello World]]==  execution:   tree-head H   tree-add tree-head 0   tree-set (tree-g..."
15:38:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Yggdrasil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73715&oldid=73714 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-133) /* Hello World */
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15:56:11 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73716&oldid=73391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
16:02:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Yggdrasil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73717&oldid=73715 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) 
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17:37:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Encoding Two 3-bit Numbers in a 4-bit Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+197) Created page with "This page is an attempt to encode two 3-bit numbers in a 4-bit number.  ==Our 3-bit numbers== Let's use <code>101</code> and <code>011</code>.  ==Attempt 1==  101  011 How?!..."
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17:56:11 <fizzie> That's a weird page.
17:59:20 <myname> he obviously doesn't know about entropy
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18:17:27 <arseniiv> huh
18:18:56 <arseniiv> BTW that’s weirder as one doesn’t need to know about entropy — we at least need to conserve the count of possibilities when we don’t know probabilities. We can presuppose them equal but that’s even not needed here. Though it would be useful later of course
18:20:01 <arseniiv> though maybe he means by “encoding” something different and unbijective… fat chance but still
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18:20:53 <myname> somebody maybe should tell him
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18:24:32 <b_jonas> oh yes! finally a way to compress any file! and with a simple lookup table too
18:25:03 <myname> to be fair, i thought about something similar as a child, too
18:26:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow/Encoding Two 3-bit Numbers in a 4-bit Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73719 * Arseniiv * (+368) /* If one wants an invertible encoding, nohow */ new section
18:26:17 <arseniiv> myname: done
18:27:19 <arseniiv> in childhood, I drew perpetuum mobile electrical schemes and didn’t even see they were such
18:27:42 <arseniiv> thankfully I didn’t try to devise any classical perpetuum mobiles though
18:27:58 <myname> by electical schemes, you mean like a circuit or like an incredible machine?
18:28:09 <arseniiv> curcuits, yeah, my bad
18:28:14 <arseniiv> circuits*
18:28:26 <myname> how do you do that
18:29:12 <myname> like, you usually don't draw high and ground, do you? and flipflops are perfectly fine
18:29:41 <int-e> lossy compression :)
18:29:48 <arseniiv> don’t remember in particular but I think there was one where a lamp lights a solar panel and thus recieves the power
18:30:27 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: wait, in what sense were your perpetuum mobile electrical schemes not classical perpetuum mobiles?
18:30:28 <arseniiv> also i drew all the batteries as I didn’t quite understand anything other
18:30:29 <myname> ah
18:30:49 <arseniiv> those were silly and enlightened times :D
18:30:55 <b_jonas> ARGH
18:31:02 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: misping sorry
18:31:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ^
18:31:42 <arseniiv> I read many books but didn’t grasp the formulae in them, at least not any advanced ones, so I read them almost as a kind of fiction
18:31:53 <arseniiv> and it had a positive effect nonetheless
18:32:19 <b_jonas> well that's normal while you're young
18:32:32 <b_jonas> especially since pop science books intended for children often suck
18:33:12 <arseniiv> b_jonas: (lol about mispinging me again; this becomes a good tradition) I mean, these weren’t for the sake of free energy, nor they were designed in ways the classical examples are, like mechanical or some such
18:33:16 <b_jonas> I had one that tried to explain tides but definitely messed it up, claiming that there are two tiles a day because a larger one is caused by the sun and a smaller one by the moon
18:34:17 <myname> x)
18:34:18 <b_jonas> a classical one has to be mechanical? I didn't think so. I thought that was more because by the time electrical circuits were common and created by the public, the nonexistence of perpetuum mobiles was also widely known
18:38:31 <arseniiv> also I had quite patchy a library. For some reason I hadn’t a thought to request a book in a library or something like that. And for example I had a mathematics handbook covering the whole school maths but it had some strange topics I haven’t seen in my real school afterwards; and aside that, I hadn’t any sufficiently large mathematics books AFAIR
18:40:19 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I had one that tried to explain tides but definitely messed it up, claiming that there are two tiles a day because a larger one is caused by the sun and a smaller one by the moon => hm I think I might have seen that one somewhere too, but I don’t think it had my attention at all—I haven’t become disillusioned when I read something more useful about tides
18:41:57 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I think that’s the reason, but I mean I didn’t even considered an idea of gaining a free energy, but I intended it would be conserved in those circuits if one makes them good enough. This is a grave mistake too! :D
18:44:46 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm not sure if most perpetuum mobiles were invented by people who wanted to gain free energy, but maybe
18:45:21 <b_jonas> I think some just wanted to prove that it's possible and they can invented, proving that they're better than others, once most people considered it impossible
18:45:41 <arseniiv> agree
18:45:52 <b_jonas> even before most people considered it impossible, it was clear that it's not an easy thing to create, so that would still work
18:46:17 <arseniiv> even now some do it in this manner: “maybe your theories are all rubbish and I haven’t considered what it would entail at all”
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18:48:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and others think that a perpetuum mobile is impossible, but invent one that seemigly works, so want to understand the physics of why it fails, or else teach why it fails to others
18:48:54 <arseniiv> yeah, this is a constructive path
18:49:16 <arseniiv> or one can investigate one of the earlier ones too
18:49:23 <b_jonas> yeah
18:51:11 <b_jonas> you can find them in physics textbooks as examples or exercises
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18:55:09 <arseniiv> exactly! One of the books I read those early times was one with interesting problems on physics, astronomy and some other topics which I understood poorly at that time—but again that book was well-written and was readable as fiction. There was a problem on why a p. m. designed by the book’s author doesn’t work. (The book read nicely because for each problem it has its statement in one section, then a slight spoiler in the next sect
18:55:09 <arseniiv> ion and then a complete answer with many tangential musings afterwards. So I read it all in one go as I hadn’t known how to solve almost any of them but the answers were an interesting read
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19:23:34 <esowiki> [[Semper dissolubilis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73720&oldid=73684 * Hakerh400 * (-8) /* I/O format */ Fix input expression
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20:47:08 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73721&oldid=67749 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Related links */ cats
20:50:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Yggdrasil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73722&oldid=73717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) /* Syntax */
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21:25:02 <esowiki> [[Realm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73723&oldid=67355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 
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21:28:26 <esowiki> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73724&oldid=72324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) larify /* Commands */
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2020-06-14:

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03:43:25 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73725&oldid=73668 * D * (+219) 
03:59:52 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73726&oldid=73195 * DmilkaSTD * (+411) added the syntax
04:00:54 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73727&oldid=73726 * DmilkaSTD * (+24) minor
04:03:39 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73728&oldid=73727 * DmilkaSTD * (+0) 5 -> 3
04:06:21 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73729&oldid=73728 * DmilkaSTD * (+72) forgot explanation lol
04:08:58 <esowiki> [[COCAINE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73730&oldid=31177 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) stub
04:36:29 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73731&oldid=73725 * D * (+3) /* Whoops */
04:39:17 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73732&oldid=73731 * D * (+212) /* Example programs */
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04:42:42 <A35> Q: Before the existance of human beings, how many times have 120! been calculated?
04:42:48 <A35> A: 1 time.
04:43:19 <A35> You know, at the beginning, there are 120 kinds of proteins that can be re-arranged.
04:43:28 <shachaf> Chet out this Sudoku variant: https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Raetsel/zeigen.php?id=0003NX
04:43:40 <A35> As far as I know, only one of these arrangements can form organic material!
04:43:55 <shachaf> zzo38: I know you like Chess variants. Do you like this?
04:44:07 <A35> (So we consider finding this special arrangement as finding 120!)
04:44:52 <A35> And, time didn't even brute-force this arrangement... it was just being "random-forced".
04:45:22 <A35> I feel that life should appear much quicker if the arrangement was brute-forced.
04:46:29 <A35> As the saying goes: Random-force is the mother of life.
04:46:57 <A35> So if you absolutely don't know how to implement something, just brute-force it. Never random-force it!
04:47:20 <A35> (Or, you will get terrible results, just like how Mother Nature has been doing.)
04:47:45 <A35> Also, don't calculate 120!. It has already been done for you.
04:48:12 <A35> It just wastes your time and computer memory; and then you realize that the output is already found.
04:50:44 <esowiki> [[DJ Qarkegs - Above The Sky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73733 * Hakerh400 * (+15053) +[[DJ Qarkegs - Above The Sky]]
04:50:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73734&oldid=73710 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[DJ Qarkegs - Above The Sky]]
04:50:50 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73735&oldid=73372 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[DJ Qarkegs - Above The Sky]]
04:57:05 <A35> esowiki: Above The Sky is my favorite song.
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04:57:30 <A35> Unfortunately the song's lyrics don't contain numbers.
04:58:46 <A35> DJ Quarkegs is also a physician collecting quarks in the kegs.
04:59:04 <A35> * quarks in the atoms of the kegs
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05:16:53 <zzo38> shachaf: It doesn't seem to be a chess variant, but it is a interesting idea.
05:17:15 <shachaf> No, but it is a variant.
05:17:32 <zzo38> Yes.
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06:42:54 <esowiki> [[Inertia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73736 * D * (+762) Created page with "[[Intertia]] is 'another' language inspired by [[User:Hanzlu]]'s usable language defintion. But this time, the language is actually quite usable. == Description == Note that t..."
06:43:34 <esowiki> [[Inertia]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73737&oldid=73736 * D * (-1) 
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08:03:29 <rain1> I was dreaming about using texnicard
08:18:58 <Arcorann> What were you trying to make with it?
08:21:32 <rain1> I made zener cards
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11:37:39 <rain1> how about a download of texnicard that doesn't make me install fossil
11:37:56 <rain1> UX idea
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12:17:46 <esowiki> [[Szewczyk notation for Minsky machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73738 * Palaiologos * (+1248) Created page with "Szewczyk notation is a tool of thought useful when describing counter machines. Simply put, this notation for Minsky machine is a minimalistic representation of it's capabilit..."
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12:21:48 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73739&oldid=72755 * Palaiologos * (+29) 
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12:23:17 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73740&oldid=58726 * Palaiologos * (+80) 
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12:36:10 <esowiki> [[DJ Qarkegs - Above The Sky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73741&oldid=73733 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Interpreters */ cats
13:04:05 <orin_> is there any easy way to arrange integer so that rather than looping over to -2^(n-1) at 2^(n-1)-1, it loops over to 2^(n-2) at 2^(n-1)+2^(n-1)-1
13:04:43 <orin_> er 2^(n-1)+2^(n-2)-1 would be followed by -2^(n-2)
13:05:59 <orin_> e.g. 0,... 191, -64,... 0 
13:11:47 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73742&oldid=73740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-37) /* See also */
13:27:25 <Arcorann> Define "easy"
13:30:17 <esowiki> [[Szewczyk notation for Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73743&oldid=73738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 
13:32:35 <esowiki> [[Inertia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73744&oldid=73737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) 
13:33:19 <int-e> It's picking different representatives modulo 2^n, so negation, addition, multiplication still work. If you want overflow detection, that'll become harder, and you need work for division and output.
13:33:54 <esowiki> [[Tarflex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73745&oldid=34781 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Printing Hello World with reflection */ Quine
13:41:07 <rain1> https://dehornoy.users.lmno.cnrs.fr/Talks/Dyz.pdf  slides on laver tables which were interesting about the small programs whose halting is not clear
13:41:45 <esowiki> [[COCAINE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73746&oldid=73730 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) rm redname
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13:43:20 <esowiki> [[RENE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73747&oldid=53387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) 
13:50:38 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73748&oldid=72147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* Brackets */
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14:37:53 <rain1> https://davidlazar.github.io/PCPL/
14:38:08 <esowiki> [[Bot Engine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73749&oldid=70668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) /* Computational Class */
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14:55:53 <esowiki> [[Turing (Iamcalledbob)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73750&oldid=65142 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax */
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15:20:02 <esowiki> [[Ante]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73751&oldid=63953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) /* External resources */ cats
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15:26:53 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73752&oldid=72865 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) /* Hello, World! */
15:29:55 <esowiki> [[OBJEKTER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73753&oldid=40626 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) 
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15:32:49 <esowiki> [[Unnecessary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73754&oldid=47015 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) /* External resources */ cats
15:35:48 <esowiki> [[Poop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73755&oldid=45167 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) /* Tools */ cats
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16:45:39 <zzo38> rain1: If you select any check-in you will actually get download links, although I suppose those are difficult to find. Also, if you just want to make Zener cards, TeXnicard is probably excessive.
16:46:15 <zzo38> I will add a proper download though that is easier to find.
16:52:31 <zzo38> rain1: Here is the download link: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/texnicard.tar.gz
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18:56:37 <esowiki> [[One]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73756&oldid=39515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+183) /* Busy Beaver */ CATS
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19:38:55 <esowiki> [[Minaac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73757&oldid=65387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) 
19:39:06 <esowiki> [[Minaac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73758&oldid=73757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
19:39:12 <esowiki> [[Minaac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73759&oldid=73758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
19:39:33 <esowiki> [[Minaac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73760&oldid=73759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) Oh come on, A
19:45:22 <esowiki> [[Intcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73761&oldid=68399 * Pppery * (-102) It's no longer December
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20:20:26 <esowiki> [[Drawkcab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73762&oldid=66002 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Concept */
20:20:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[Drawkcab]] to [[DrawkcaB]]: Fix capitalization
20:21:40 <esowiki> [[DrawkcaB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73765&oldid=73763 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) 
20:36:25 <esowiki> [[Ward Cunningham]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73766&oldid=8299 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
20:59:20 <esowiki> [[ Encrypted ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73767&oldid=72792 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) unpipe cross-namespace link
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2020-06-15:

00:03:26 -!- imode has joined.
00:24:34 <esowiki> [[EnilKode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73768&oldid=72977 * EnilKoder * (+229) /* Variables */
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04:26:37 <tswett[m]> Hi everyone.
04:26:37 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:26:43 <tswett[m]> I did some knitting for you.
04:26:46 <tswett[m]> Here it is: IAIIAIIAIIAIIAI/NZNZNZNZNZ/NZNZNZNZNZ/IIIVIIVIIVIIVIII/IIAIIAIIAIIAIIAII/INZNZNZNZNZI/INZNZNZNZNZI/VIIVIIVIIVIIVIIV
04:26:49 <tswett[m]> I hope you enjoy it.
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05:59:04 <imode> tswett[m]: I love it.
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06:48:09 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73769&oldid=66637 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) /* Examples */ Should have I picked more appropriate word.
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08:18:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73770&oldid=73643 * Chris Pressey * (+633) 
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08:36:11 <esowiki> [[Szewczyk notation for Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73771&oldid=73743 * Palaiologos * (+57) some more properties
08:39:21 <esowiki> [[Szewczyk notation for Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73772&oldid=73771 * Palaiologos * (+165) I/O extension
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11:54:36 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73773 * Hakerh400 * (+17584) +[[Entrance]]
11:54:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73774&oldid=73734 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Entrance]]
11:54:42 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73775&oldid=73735 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Entrance]]
12:39:58 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73776&oldid=73773 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Basic examples */
12:44:26 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73777&oldid=73769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Special Behaviours */
12:46:18 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73778&oldid=73777 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) /* External resources */
12:47:19 <esowiki> [[Braincrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73779&oldid=64375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* Implementation */ cats
12:47:58 <esowiki> [[Category:Turing tarpits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73780&oldid=7838 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
12:49:50 <esowiki> [[Category:Turning tarpits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73781&oldid=23077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
12:50:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73782&oldid=73558 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* Paradigm */ i guess this is like a paradigm
12:54:49 <esowiki> [[If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73783&oldid=68608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Specifications */ see [[#Quine]]
12:55:19 <esowiki> [[If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73784&oldid=73783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Code fragment where ll can't be omitted without changing its behaviour */
12:57:42 <esowiki> [[If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73785&oldid=73784 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+151) /* Code fragment where ll can't be omitted without changing its behaviour */ cats
13:07:18 <esowiki> [[LisL/examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73786&oldid=50729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) 
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13:11:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/InputOnlyLangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) Created page with "Eventually, there should be a [[:Category:Input only]], as there's a [[:Category:Output only]]. * [[Livefish]] * [[Stackint]]"
13:14:13 <esowiki> [[ListLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73788&oldid=47043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) cats
13:14:58 <esowiki> [[Chaincode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73789&oldid=50722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) 
13:15:13 <esowiki> [[Chaincode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73790&oldid=73789 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:23:57 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73791&oldid=73693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ cat
13:28:32 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73792&oldid=73748 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Truth-machine */ cats
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13:37:01 <esowiki> [[Boobeans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73793&oldid=69228 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) cats + unpipe
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13:57:51 <int-e> > round (25259974097204 :: Float)
13:57:53 <lambdabot>  25259973541888
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14:58:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Substitutor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73794&oldid=70719 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Running BFS */ cats
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16:49:27 <esowiki> [[Pb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73795&oldid=44710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+291) /* rainbow.pb */ cats + tc
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17:15:57 <esowiki> [[Pbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73796&oldid=49849 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Tbrain */
17:16:50 <esowiki> [[Toadskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73797&oldid=34111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Commands */
17:17:44 <esowiki> [[Toadskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73798&oldid=73797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* External resources */  ats
17:22:07 <esowiki> [[ENTMPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73799&oldid=24012 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) CATS
17:22:40 <esowiki> [[ENTMPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73800&oldid=73799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Wolfram's 2,3 Machine */
17:25:51 <esowiki> [[DownRight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73801&oldid=54304 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) 
17:28:14 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73802&oldid=55403 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 
17:29:09 <esowiki> [[Perpetuum Mobile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73803&oldid=73802 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Computational class */ cats
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17:36:40 <esowiki> [[3switchBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73804&oldid=73104 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+444) 
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17:57:19 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any other frequently (or infrequently) asked questions about TeXnicard.
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18:00:20 <int-e> why?
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18:28:25 <arseniiv_> hi
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18:30:46 <zzo38> Hello
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21:02:15 <esowiki> [[Chalcraft-Greene train track automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73805&oldid=41557 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) cats
21:06:04 <esowiki> [[Box]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73806&oldid=71935 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) 
21:06:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[Box]] to [[]]: The title works fine
21:09:04 <esowiki> [[Typespam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73809&oldid=52657 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) cats
21:10:04 <esowiki> [[Visify]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+158) Created page with ":''I will finish the page later, the lang is complete though''. '''Visify''' is an [[assembly code|assembly]]-like esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]."
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22:43:01 <ArthurStrong> Hello
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23:03:08 <ArthurStrong> What would you recommend to read about lambda calculus? Aside of SICP?
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2020-06-16:

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01:30:26 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73811&oldid=73627 * Bigyihsuan * (-61) 
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05:38:56 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73812&oldid=73732 * A * (+41) /* Instruction list */
05:39:58 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73813&oldid=73812 * A * (+232) /* A practical example - gettind rid of the = */
05:43:59 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73814&oldid=73813 * A * (+378) /* A practical example - gettind rid of the = */
05:47:28 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73815&oldid=73814 * A * (+606) /* Implementation of a do ... while loop */
05:50:08 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73816&oldid=73815 * A * (+124) /* Before I do that though, I must specify some extra things here. */
05:53:12 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73817&oldid=73816 * A * (+478) /* Branching */
05:56:58 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73818&oldid=73817 * A * (+467) /* How different branches are executed */
05:59:42 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73819&oldid=73818 * A * (+361) /* How different branches are executed */
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12:44:06 <Arcorann> http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/HQ9%2B
12:44:32 <Arcorann> ^ chuckled a bit at this (used Google Translate)
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15:08:10 <esowiki> [[Visify]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73820&oldid=73810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2431) 
15:08:32 <esowiki> [[Visify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73821&oldid=73820 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-59) 
15:09:07 <esowiki> [[Visify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73822&oldid=73821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */
15:10:11 <esowiki> [[Mov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73823&oldid=72677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* References */
15:11:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73824&oldid=73782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Languages */ move if needed
15:11:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73825&oldid=73774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* V */
15:12:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73826&oldid=73711 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Languages */
15:15:10 <esowiki> [[DJN OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73827&oldid=46451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+173) cats
15:17:17 <esowiki> [[Visify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73828&oldid=73822 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* External resources */ cat
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16:13:16 <esowiki> [[Tag system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73830&oldid=66981 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* External resources */
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21:49:28 <shachaf> The DIMACS thing where variables start from 1 instead of 0 (because negation is represented with negation) is a little annoying.
21:49:48 <shachaf> In particular I have all these off-by-1 issues when trying to read the internal state of the solver, which counts from 0.
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22:13:03 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73832&oldid=73729 * DmilkaSTD * (+4) 
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2020-06-17:

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04:09:42 <shachaf> If I have a pretty good feel for SAT and want to learn more about how SMT works, is there a particular thing I should read?
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06:33:19 <Antebrationist> Can a nondeterministic language be Turing-complete?
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06:38:58 <imode> by definition, yeah.
06:39:08 <imode> thue is nondeterministic but turing complete.
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06:40:09 <myname> why shouldn't it? it would be weird to lose a lower bound of complexity by adding more options
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12:57:02 <esowiki> [[Norfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73833&oldid=50338 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) 
13:03:17 <esowiki> [[Loop without output]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73834&oldid=34993 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* More specifications and example code */ rm blank line
13:05:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck in Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73835&oldid=70722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
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13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Useful!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73836&oldid=24124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) unsigned
13:11:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Useful!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73837&oldid=73836 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) unsigned
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13:23:42 <esowiki> [[ABCD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73838&oldid=65574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Interpreter */ cat
13:27:36 <t20kdc> ...it seems like ABCD programs are a subset of Brainfuck programs...?
13:36:06 <Arcorann> Looks like it
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13:40:40 <esowiki> [[F-PULSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73839&oldid=57428 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Operands */ fix Enlgish
13:43:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * 20kdc *  New user account
13:46:36 <esowiki> [[F-PULSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73840&oldid=73839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) operand -> command & cats
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13:57:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73841&oldid=73651 * 20kdc * (+404) Introducing myself.
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14:47:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Eremiell *  New user account
14:51:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73842&oldid=73841 * Eremiell * (+285) 
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15:34:22 <kspalaiologos> ais, I'll give it to you, I've been severely hooked on 3SP
15:34:31 <kspalaiologos> I'm trying to figure out how exactly do I program it
15:48:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * NooneAtAll *  New user account
15:49:08 <esowiki> [[Jannis Harder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73843&oldid=57366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* External resources */
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15:54:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73844&oldid=73842 * NooneAtAll * (+195) why are you even viewing history of this page?
15:56:54 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73845 * Eremiell * (+1649) Initial version, publishing of the full description allowed by the author, further edits will be provided as situation evolves
16:07:53 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73846&oldid=73845 * Eremiell * (+287) Adds infobox, minor formatting edits
16:09:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73847&oldid=73825 * Eremiell * (+15) Adds GORBITSA into the list
16:24:21 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73848&oldid=73846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+207) 
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16:50:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * MDerie *  New user account
16:50:35 <esowiki> [[BytePusher II]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73849&oldid=40099 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Endianness */
16:53:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73850&oldid=73844 * MDerie * (+111) /* Introductions */
16:55:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73851&oldid=73850 * MDerie * (+49) /* Introductions */
16:55:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73852&oldid=73851 * MDerie * (+3) /* Introductions */
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17:47:23 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73853&oldid=73848 * NooneAtAll * (+875) 
17:50:21 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73854&oldid=73853 * NooneAtAll * (+103) 
17:56:21 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73855&oldid=73854 * NooneAtAll * (+719) 
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18:29:07 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73856&oldid=73266 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+347) /* Minimization */
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18:46:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Geek Joystick *  New user account
18:53:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73857&oldid=73852 * Geek Joystick * (+264) 
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19:23:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Gecero *  New user account
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20:43:15 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73858&oldid=73855 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Complete description of the language as initially provided */ unify spacing
21:09:02 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73859&oldid=73858 * Geek Joystick * (+140) 
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21:31:34 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73860&oldid=73859 * NooneAtAll * (+437) 
21:31:56 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73861&oldid=73860 * NooneAtAll * (+6) /* Language overview */
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21:37:50 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73862&oldid=73861 * NooneAtAll * (+107) /* Language overview */
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21:56:22 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73863&oldid=73862 * Geek Joystick * (-2) 
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22:39:22 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73864&oldid=73863 * Geek Joystick * (+0) 
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23:46:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73865&oldid=73864 * Geek Joystick * (+0) 
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2020-06-18:

00:04:17 -!- sprock1em has changed nick to sprocklem.
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01:38:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * ZippyMagician *  New user account
01:40:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73866&oldid=73857 * ZippyMagician * (+243) introduction
01:48:16 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73867&oldid=73865 * ZippyMagician * (+379) 
01:48:43 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73868&oldid=73867 * ZippyMagician * (+5) fix indentation
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03:24:35 <zzo38> {?} Sorcery ;; Target spell or non-land permanent deals 1 damage to each damageable. ;; Lifelink ;; Overload {???}
03:43:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Esolanguser *  New user account
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04:19:27 <zzo38> In Plan10 we can have a "user tree", which the kernel keeps track of and is a tree structure of user IDs with ID 0 at the root of the tree. This then affects permissions.
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06:18:50 <zzo38> Is there a classification system for TV shows and movies that is like Dewey in that it is numeric and has subcategories?
06:54:25 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73869 * MDerie * (+332) Gabuzomeu (if birds could talk...)
06:55:45 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73870&oldid=73869 * MDerie * (-10) 
06:57:45 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73871&oldid=73870 * MDerie * (+11) 
06:58:14 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73872&oldid=73871 * MDerie * (+22) 
07:00:21 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73873&oldid=73872 * MDerie * (+7) 
07:04:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73874&oldid=73847 * MDerie * (+16) /* G */
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07:12:12 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73875&oldid=73873 * MDerie * (+463) 
07:15:06 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73876&oldid=73875 * MDerie * (+7) 
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07:56:37 <esowiki> [[Category talk:Total]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73877 * Chris Pressey * (+505) Note that there are total languages with self-interpreters.
07:59:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73878&oldid=73829 * Chris Pressey * (+22) +cat
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08:00:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73879&oldid=73878 * Chris Pressey * (-48) "Total" is a computational class, a.k.a. "recursive"
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08:21:29 <cpressey> That rewrite system idea I had a few days ago -- I'm working it up into an esolang.  Hope to create an article for it on the wiki RSN.
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08:39:44 <esowiki> [[Rui]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73880 * Sinthorion * (+2742) Created page with "'''Rui''' is an esolang based on threads: All control flow and even basic arithmetic requires the use of multiple threads that create, communicate with, and destroy other thre..."
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08:41:02 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73881&oldid=73880 * Sinthorion * (+119) implementation
08:43:25 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73882&oldid=73868 * NooneAtAll * (+45) /* Programs */
08:46:52 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73883&oldid=73882 * Geek Joystick * (+92) 
08:46:58 <esowiki> [[User:Sinthorion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73884 * Sinthorion * (+1183) Created page with "This page does not exist yet. You can create it via typing in the box below (see the [[Esolang:Help|help page]] for more information). (If you don't want to create the page, j..."
08:49:39 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73885&oldid=73881 * Sinthorion * (+277) naming; some fixes
08:49:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73886&oldid=73883 * NooneAtAll * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
08:50:48 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73887&oldid=73886 * Geek Joystick * (+1) 
08:51:01 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73888&oldid=73887 * NooneAtAll * (-26) /* Programs */
08:51:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73889&oldid=73874 * Sinthorion * (+10) adding Rui
08:54:40 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73890&oldid=73888 * NooneAtAll * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
09:13:07 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73891&oldid=73890 * NooneAtAll * (+2) 
09:20:30 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73892&oldid=73885 * Sinthorion * (+52) 
09:21:47 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73893&oldid=73892 * Sinthorion * (-1) /* Examples */
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10:00:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:LegionMammal978]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73894 * Sinjoro * (+250) Created page with "Sorry to reply this late, yes I have a python compiler for [[PureBrainz]]? Here's the link: https://github.com/HiiGHoVuTi/PureBrainz. Contact me on discord: Maxime#0697 --~~~~"
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10:28:08 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73895&oldid=73891 * Geek Joystick * (+118) /* Implementations */
10:46:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * X39 *  New user account
10:49:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73896&oldid=73866 * X39 * (+185) /* Introductions */
10:53:54 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73897&oldid=73895 * X39 * (+15) Reworked Implementations into Table
10:54:56 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73898&oldid=73897 * X39 * (+84) Added my own implementation to the list
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11:00:28 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73899&oldid=73898 * NooneAtAll * (+195) /* gorbitsa */
11:02:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73900&oldid=73899 * X39 * (+16) Fixed User-Page-Links
11:03:32 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73901&oldid=73900 * X39 * (+23) /* Implementations */ Fixed Missing User Link
11:09:03 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73902&oldid=73901 * NooneAtAll * (+28) /* Programs */
11:24:54 <esowiki> [[Annihilator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73903 * Ais523 * (+7729) new language
11:25:26 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73904&oldid=73889 * Ais523 * (+18) /* A */ +[[Annihilator]]
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11:25:49 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73905&oldid=70303 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[Annihilator]]
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11:29:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73906&oldid=73896 * Ais523 * (-146560) /* Introductions */ remove older introductions because this page is getting dangerously large; they're still present in the page history
11:31:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73907&oldid=66254 * Ais523 * (+343) /* Shall we archive this project page regularly? */ good idea
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12:15:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Megarev *  New user account
12:20:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73908&oldid=73906 * Megarev * (+103) /* Introductions */
12:21:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73909&oldid=73908 * Megarev * (+25) /* Introductions */
12:21:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73910&oldid=73902 * Megarev * (+126) /* Programs */
12:22:14 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73911&oldid=73910 * Megarev * (+2) /* [For loop] */
12:24:19 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73912&oldid=73911 * Megarev * (+78) /* Implementations */
12:24:32 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73913&oldid=73912 * Megarev * (-1) /* Implementations */
12:25:13 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73914&oldid=73913 * Megarev * (+0) /* Implementations */
12:25:30 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73915&oldid=73914 * Megarev * (-77) /* Implementations */
12:26:32 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73916&oldid=73915 * Megarev * (-4) /* For loop */
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12:29:19 <esowiki> [[User:20kdc/HypotheticalBrainfuckToByteByteJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73917 * 20kdc * (+3004) Write down some working notes to avoid cluttering the Talk:ByteByteJump page with them.
12:30:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73918&oldid=73507 * 20kdc * (+415) /* Computational class */
12:36:40 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73919&oldid=73916 * Megarev * (+26) /* For loop */
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12:51:35 <esowiki> [[Annihilator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73920&oldid=73903 * Ais523 * (+661) /* Computational class */ expand; see also
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13:05:49 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73921&oldid=73919 * Geek Joystick * (+251) /* Programs */
13:15:07 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73922&oldid=73921 * Geek Joystick * (+164) /* Guessing Game (by Geek_Joystick) */
13:15:29 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73923&oldid=73922 * Geek Joystick * (-10) /* Guessing Game (by Geek_Joystick) */
13:25:30 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73924&oldid=73923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) /* Implementations */ unpipe cross-namespace links
13:25:57 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73925&oldid=73924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Guessing Game (by Geek_Joystick) */
13:34:45 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73926&oldid=73876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 
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14:03:54 <esowiki> [[List of quines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73927&oldid=71374 * MDerie * (+29778) 
14:06:35 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73928&oldid=73926 * MDerie * (+92) 
14:08:02 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73929&oldid=73928 * MDerie * (+19) 
14:08:33 <esowiki> [[Gabuzomeu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73930&oldid=73929 * MDerie * (+10) 
14:09:38 <esowiki> [[User:X39]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73931 * X39 * (+32) Added GitHub link
14:23:13 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73932&oldid=73925 * Geek Joystick * (+131) /* Programs */
14:27:56 <esowiki> [[User:Ellie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73933&oldid=72723 * Ellie * (+18) 
14:35:21 <esowiki> [[Licorne/Writer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73934&oldid=45089 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) 
14:36:24 <esowiki> [[Liberation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73935&oldid=70503 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) 
14:36:42 <esowiki> [[Liberation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73936&oldid=73935 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Interpreters */
14:48:47 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73937&oldid=73932 * Geek Joystick * (+0) /* Implementations */
14:48:53 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73938&oldid=73937 * ZippyMagician * (+237) Modulus operation
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14:54:23 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73939&oldid=73938 * ZippyMagician * (-13) 
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15:02:06 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73940&oldid=73939 * X39 * (+144) Added color coding to Yes/No columns
15:04:00 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73941&oldid=73940 * X39 * (+9) /* Implementations */ Made table sortable
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15:18:20 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73942&oldid=72924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) ns notice
15:26:27 <esowiki> [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73943&oldid=71387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Output */
15:26:56 <esowiki> [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73944&oldid=73943 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) /* Interpreters */ unpipe cross ns link
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15:50:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73945 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1791) Created page with "'''Vandevelo''' is an input-only esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Values== The only values in Vandevelo are nil and not nil.  ==Statements== Each line has zero o..."
15:51:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73946&oldid=73945 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) 
15:51:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] to [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]]
15:51:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] to [[Vandevelo]]: oops
15:52:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73951&oldid=73904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* V */
15:53:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73952&oldid=73826 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* Languages */ + [[Vandevelo]]
16:04:52 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73953&oldid=71099 * Sinjoro * (+131) 
16:05:47 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73954&oldid=73953 * Sinjoro * (+21) 
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16:24:29 <esowiki> [[Semantic Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73955&oldid=66828 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Commands and Source Code */ code tags
16:25:25 <esowiki> [[Semantic Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73956&oldid=73955 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Examples */
16:26:09 <esowiki> [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73957&oldid=69412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) 
16:29:53 <esowiki> [[Intrnt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73958&oldid=55524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+137) 
16:31:47 <esowiki> [[Pure BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73959&oldid=34860 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Computational Class */
16:32:35 <esowiki> [[Pure BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73960&oldid=73959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Implementation */
16:33:23 <esowiki> [[Pure BF/Implementation in Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73961&oldid=34851 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) 
16:33:33 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73962&oldid=73941 * ZippyMagician * (+121) Quine
16:34:10 <esowiki> [[Pure BF/Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73963&oldid=40187 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) 
16:34:14 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73964&oldid=73962 * ZippyMagician * (+32) /* Quine by User: ZippyMagician */
16:35:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * SirFelixDelazar *  New user account
16:39:04 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73965&oldid=73964 * ZippyMagician * (+2) Make it similar to other sections
16:42:24 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73966&oldid=73965 * Geek Joystick * (-13) /* Implementations */
16:45:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73967&oldid=73909 * SirFelixDelazar * (+146) /* Introductions */
16:48:00 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73968&oldid=73966 * ZippyMagician * (+162) Fix colors
16:50:16 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73969&oldid=73968 * ZippyMagician * (-4) /* Implementations */
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17:14:05 <esowiki> [[Sir Felix Delazar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73970 * SirFelixDelazar * (+58) Created page with "[https://sirfelixdelazar.github.io/GORBITSA/ GORBITSA IDE]"
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18:23:51 <esowiki> [[Armok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73971&oldid=70729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* External links */ cat
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21:02:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73972&oldid=73948 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) Changed redirect target from [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] to [[Vandevelo]]
21:02:49 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73973&oldid=73950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) (delete this page)
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2020-06-19:

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01:01:24 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73974&oldid=73811 * Bigyihsuan * (+274) /* IO */
01:02:35 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73975&oldid=73974 * Bigyihsuan * (+85) /* Plosives: Stack Operations */
01:02:51 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73976&oldid=73975 * Bigyihsuan * (+0) /* IO */
01:09:33 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73977&oldid=73969 * ZippyMagician * (+1066) Self-interpreter
01:12:55 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73978&oldid=73977 * ZippyMagician * (+40) Clarification (self-interpreter)
01:16:05 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73979&oldid=73976 * Bigyihsuan * (+830) /* Overview */
01:19:58 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73980&oldid=73978 * ZippyMagician * (-34) Marked as implemented
01:20:08 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73981&oldid=73979 * Bigyihsuan * (+303) /* The Register */
02:01:37 <zzo38> Sometimes, in order to win the game, you must concede.
02:02:38 <shachaf> Which game? Magic: The Gathering?
02:03:31 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe other games too I don't know.
02:05:22 <shachaf> How can you win that game by conceding?
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02:07:07 <zzo38> Well, sometimes it is possible in case of team games or subgames.
02:11:32 <zzo38> For example, see: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.5
02:36:14 <zzo38> Apparently, Wizards of the Coast seems to really hate Time Spiral block. But I think is better than most blocks, and some other people also think. At least, this is what some people wrote on the comments.
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04:11:45 <ArthurStrong> Hi all. Dear lazyweb, what are practical uses of regex backresolves? Wondering...
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05:28:21 <ais523> ArthurStrong: do you mean "backreferences"? not sure about /practical/, but some people have used them for some unexpectedly powerful esoprograms
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05:31:04 <ais523> for example, here's a regex (not made by me!) that divides a number (expressed in bijective unary) by sqrt(2): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/198427/shift-right-by-half-a-bit/198428#198428
05:33:11 <ais523> similarly, here's a regex (made by the same person as the above regex) that matches factorials (expressed in bijective unary): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/121731/is-this-number-a-factorial/178979#178979
05:39:53 <ais523> on a related note, are all linear bound automata primitive recursive?
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06:25:30 <zzo38> They said JavaScript doesn't have a integer type; well, it does now, and I think it did even when that message was written
06:25:51 <zzo38> (However, its integer type is signed, not unsigned.)
07:28:42 <shachaf> `5 w
07:28:46 <HackEso> 1/1:gray//Gray is e common misspalling of grey. \ currying//Functions are curried by taking curry(f). \ topology//Topology is another name for topos theory. \ ssr//SSR is Steven's Sausage Roll. \ itay//Itay is Christmas in Italy.
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08:45:45 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73982 * Chris Pressey * (+14554) Created page with "'''Tandem''' is an experimental rewriting language, designed by [[Chris Pressey]] in June 2020, where the rewrite rules form a Kleene algebra.  The object being rewritten by a..."
08:48:16 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73983&oldid=73982 * Chris Pressey * (-3) /* Implementing Automata in Tandem */ grammar
08:53:14 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73984&oldid=73983 * Chris Pressey * (+203) /* Syntax */ Describe the escape sequences allowed in string literals.
08:54:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73985&oldid=73951 * Chris Pressey * (+13) /* T */ Add Tandem.
09:04:32 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73986&oldid=73984 * Chris Pressey * (+94) /* Examples */ Clarify why this example never matches.
09:04:43 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73987&oldid=73980 * ZippyMagician * (+20) Fix to O/G commands
10:01:39 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73988&oldid=73986 * Chris Pressey * (+42) /* Algebraic properties */ Don't let's confuse CNF and DNF.
10:03:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73989&oldid=73832 * DmilkaSTD * (+622) some documentation things
10:03:45 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73990&oldid=73989 * DmilkaSTD * (+18) Whoops
10:12:19 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73991&oldid=73987 * X39 * (+4117) Made Specification into table with proper MUST/SHOULD/UNDEFINED/MAY/MUSTNOT verbs
10:16:25 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73992&oldid=73991 * X39 * (+62) Renamed Headers
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10:17:30 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73993&oldid=73990 * DmilkaSTD * (+105) comments syntax
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10:20:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73994&oldid=73992 * X39 * (+355) /* Specification */ Added details about initial values
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11:02:00 <cpressey> I just realized that enqueuing an event in a language like JavaScript is a lot like prepending a call frame to the bottom of the call stack.  When the last function returns, instead of exiting (transferring control back to the OS), it transfers it to the event handler.
11:02:07 <cpressey> The analogy's not perfect of course.
11:05:18 <cpressey> I didn't realize until today that JavaScript's event queue actually contains the handlers themselves (I kind of thought there were looked up at the time the event is to be handled, but no. They're stored in the queue. If there is no handler, nothing's enqueued.)
11:06:51 <myname> that makes perfect sense since you can have multiple handlers created different ways for the same event
11:07:42 <cpressey> Yes, and there's no sense enqueing something if you know there's no handler for it.
11:11:02 <myname> yeah, especially since there are quite a lot of events that could happen
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11:21:04 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73995&oldid=73994 * X39 * (+1074) Moved examples into table with according informations & expectations attached to them
11:21:52 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73996&oldid=73995 * X39 * (+14) /* Programs */ Added `Specification` to Compliance header
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11:36:44 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73997&oldid=73996 * X39 * (+11) /* Implementations */ Updated input modes
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12:05:48 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73998&oldid=73997 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+164) /* Programs */ eof cat
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12:11:23 <esowiki> [[UsableSeed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73999&oldid=66292 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) 
12:16:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/InputOnlyLangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74000&oldid=73787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) 
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12:29:00 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74001&oldid=73998 * X39 * (-26) /* Programs */ Removed note that explains behavior according to specification
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13:09:37 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74002&oldid=73097 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Lua */ fix
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13:21:20 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74003&oldid=74001 * Geek Joystick * (+216) /* Programs */
13:35:54 <arseniiv> hi folks (hehe)
13:36:20 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74004&oldid=74003 * ZippyMagician * (-1442) 
13:37:50 <arseniiv> suppose you have a function `partition :: Integer -> [a] -> [[a]]` which for usual values of the first argument works like that:
13:37:50 <arseniiv> partition 3 [1..10] = [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9], [10]]
13:37:50 <arseniiv> what would you say about `partition 0`? (I have an answer of my own but I’ll spoil the problem later)
13:41:03 <myname> an infinite list of empty lists?
13:41:30 <arseniiv> yes this comes to mind immediately but I think this definition is quite unhelpful and there’s a better one
13:42:16 <arseniiv> which is coherent with definition of another function at 0, which is quite controversial for general public but algebraically solid
13:42:27 <arseniiv> I won’t spoil what function yet
13:43:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Ais523 *  moved [[Sir Felix Delazar]] to [[User:SirFelixDelazar]]: appears to be a User: page created in the main namespace by mistake
13:43:46 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74006&oldid=74004 * ZippyMagician * (-10) Fix category in infobox
13:45:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74007&oldid=74006 * Ais523 * (+2) /* Implementations */ fix section header
13:45:40 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74008&oldid=74007 * ZippyMagician * (-10) Fix link
13:46:08 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74009&oldid=74008 * Geek Joystick * (-103) /* Implementations */
13:48:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74010&oldid=74009 * ZippyMagician * (+149) Add Multiplication programs
13:50:09 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74011&oldid=74010 * ZippyMagician * (-67) Remove credits for non-major programs
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13:55:27 <arseniiv> oh incidentally isn’t there a function in one of the bots which would post a message after a given timeout, or approximately at a given time?
13:55:51 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74012&oldid=74011 * ZippyMagician * (+1) Fix
13:58:03 <cpressey> "partition 0" seems too much like "divide by 0" to me, I would leave it undefined
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14:10:57 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74013&oldid=74012 * Geek Joystick * (+388) /* Programs */
14:18:03 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74014&oldid=74013 * ZippyMagician * (+17) Fix info/indentation
14:23:18 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74015&oldid=74014 * X39 * (+2363) /* Implementations */ Added more detailed info about supported IO
14:23:27 <ais523> well, it's obvious what the /last/ element of the resulting list is
14:23:43 <ais523> the only controversy is as to how many empty elements appear before it
14:24:02 <ais523> a naive implementation would surely put infinitely many empty elements there, though
14:24:04 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74016&oldid=74015 * X39 * (+6) /* Implementations */ Fixed INN & PNN
14:24:16 <ais523> (unless this is one of those "9 recurring = minus 1" theorems)
14:24:35 <ArthurStrong> ais523: thanks!
14:26:37 <ais523> thinknig about it, the number of elements that appear earlier should be 0/0, which is NaN, so I'm going to claim "the output is a list consisting of NaN empty lists followed by the original list"
14:26:54 <ais523> not that this is a concept that most languages can easily represent :-D
14:29:26 <ais523> …I guess a further ramification of this is that the output does not compare equal with itself
14:29:38 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74017&oldid=74016 * Geek Joystick * (-1) 
14:32:06 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74018&oldid=74017 * ZippyMagician * (+0) Fix Zippy's implementation details
14:36:18 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA/bf-interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74019 * ZippyMagician * (+10779) Created page with "Created by Gorbit99. Runs in ROM mode with char input/output, only positive numbers allowed (0-255)   >+[ Read in code until #   ,>+++++++[-<----->]<   [ If not #     >>+< Set..."
14:36:49 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74020&oldid=74018 * Geek Joystick * (+9) /* Implementations */
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14:41:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74021&oldid=74020 * SirFelixDelazar * (+20) /* Implementations */
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14:42:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74022&oldid=74021 * SirFelixDelazar * (+22) /* Implementations */
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14:43:27 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74023&oldid=74022 * X39 * (+0) /* Implementations */ Updated my implementation details
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14:47:23 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74024&oldid=74023 * ZippyMagician * (+368) Add brainfuck interpreter
14:48:14 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74025&oldid=74024 * ZippyMagician * (+5) Fix link
15:11:04 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74026&oldid=74025 * Megarev * (+106) /* Programs */
15:13:13 <arseniiv> ais523: yeah something like that
15:14:01 <arseniiv> <cpressey> "partition 0" seems too much like "divide by 0" to me, I would leave it undefined => understandable
15:14:30 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> ais523: yeah something like that => I meant the first version where there are zero []s, though NaN []s is interesting
15:15:08 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74027&oldid=74026 * Megarev * (+4) /* A 10x10 Box (By Megarev) */
15:16:32 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74028&oldid=74027 * Megarev * (+67) /* A 10x10 Box (By Megarev) */
15:17:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
15:18:05 <ais523> not doing any moderation, but ChanServ is apparently going to go down for a while
15:18:30 <ais523> meaning that it'll be helpful to have someone pre-opped just in case op powers are needed
15:18:45 <ais523> otherwise there'll be no way to moderate the channel
15:19:25 <arseniiv> too reasonable to be the truth^W^W^W^W^W^W
15:19:55 <ais523> is x % 0 normally considered undefined? I can't see how it would have any sensible value but x
15:20:53 <arseniiv> ais523: yeah when I finally learned it may be defined as x, now I don’t see anything other else, but the majority of, say, programming languages conservatively/still-unknowingly disagrees
15:21:10 <ais523> it may depend on what edge case rules you use
15:21:27 <Taneb> ais523: it's undefined in C99 at least
15:21:34 <ais523> I just checked the specs of a language I'm working on and it said that the return value of a modulus x % y is always in the range 0 to y-1 inclusive
15:21:57 <ais523> which means that it needs to reject x % 0 as a range error, but then it also rejects x % -1 as a range error
15:22:05 <ais523> whereas I think most programming languages return 0 for integer x
15:22:13 <ais523> > 2 `mod` -1
15:22:16 <lambdabot>  error:
15:22:16 <lambdabot>      Precedence parsing error
15:22:16 <lambdabot>          cannot mix ‘mod’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same in...
15:22:19 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA/bf-interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74029&oldid=74019 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) 
15:22:20 <ais523> > 2 `mod` (-1)
15:22:22 <lambdabot>  0
15:22:25 <ais523> > 2 `rem` (-1)
15:22:27 <lambdabot>  0
15:22:45 <arseniiv> I like Knuth’s definition IIRC, though I think there were arguments for another one which is close but it works with euclidean algorithm, I always forget in what regard
15:23:00 <ais523> (this is a language where having controlled errors is useful, so I don't want to make more cases work than are necessary)
15:25:05 <rain1> what's the argument for x % 0 = x?
15:25:45 <ais523> (x / y) * y + (x % y) = x
15:26:00 <ais523> with y = 0, the * y becomes * 0
15:26:04 <ais523> so you get (x % y) = x
15:26:10 <ais523> err, (x % 0) = x
15:26:16 <rain1> How is it that (x/0)*0 = 0?
15:26:37 <ais523> the argument relies on the identity z*0 = 0 for all z
15:26:44 <ais523> this is the only weak point in it
15:27:01 <ais523> in that it's quite reasonable to claim that that identity is unreasonable where division by zero is concerned
15:28:20 <arseniiv> rain1: you may first define mod n as a function from Z to Z/nZ (or e. g. from R to R/nR) with some properties, in this case mod 0 is Z → Z/0 ≅ Z and is the identity. Then you can map Z/nZ to Z in some way, like the usual [0..n) for nonzero n, but for n = 0, the all of Z will still be reasonable
15:28:44 <rain1> ooh
15:28:47 <arseniiv> with some properties => why, this should just be a ring morphism
15:28:47 <ais523> for what it's worth, in declarative languages, it seems obviously correct to have x / 0 = fail for nonzero x, and 0 / 0 = unconstrained number
15:28:59 <arseniiv> nonzero*
15:29:12 <ais523> in that case, x % 0 = x is the only consistent ruling if you're dealing with numbers that can go both negative and positive
15:29:53 <ais523> I haven't really decided how to deal with negative numbers in my declarative languages yet
15:30:02 <ais523> even Prologs differ amongst themselves
15:31:20 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> nonzero* => I’m not sufficient again; it should be an epimorphism
15:31:25 <cpressey> fwiw, Wikipedia's definition of modular arithmetic says "Given an integer n > 1, called a modulus, two integers are said to be congruent modulo n if n is a divisor of their difference, that is, if there is an integer k such that a − b = kn."  If you ignore the n > 1 part, it's consistent with the choice x % 0 = x.
15:31:36 <cpressey> (No matter how much it offends my sensibilities.)
15:31:55 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, that’s indeed consistent
15:31:59 <ais523> I'm fairly satisfied that x % 0 can't reasonably be anything /but/ x, if it's anything at all
15:32:06 <ais523> but I think deciding that it's undefined is also reasonable
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15:32:12 <ais523> and the choice may depend on the domain of x
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15:32:43 <arseniiv> more elaborated, (x % n = y % n) <=> (x ≡ y (mod n)) holds with this definition of %
15:33:06 <ais523> is (mod 0) generally considered defined?
15:33:14 <ais523> also, does this work for negative n?
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15:33:32 <ais523> (that said, negative moduli are a mess anyway)
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15:34:22 <arseniiv> ais523: yeah, (mod −n) should be the same as (mod n), as (−n)Z = nZ, though I don’t know how widely that’s avoided in usage
15:35:33 <arseniiv> algebraically, ≡ (mod n) is the same as ≡ (mod I) for an ideal I = nZ. These relations are defined for any ideal, the same as we can have (mod [a normal subgroup]) for groups
15:36:02 <arseniiv> there should be no conflations in using this notation this way IIRC
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15:36:39 <arseniiv> I know very little algebra
15:38:51 <ais523> I know enough to quotient by an equivalence relation, and then wrote all my papers in terms of that
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15:40:05 <cpressey> This week I designed a rewriting language and I think the set of rewrite rules forms a Kleene algebra.
15:40:12 <cpressey> I put it on the wiki this morning.
15:40:44 <cpressey> (Notwithstanding that I probably know less algebra than either of you)
15:40:45 <arseniiv> but that one should be consomething with all the structure, though I need to say I don’t understand why do many textbook authors not mention equivalence relations when defining quotient groups, rings and algebras
15:41:06 <ais523> wow that was annoyingly difficult to find in Recent Changes
15:41:13 <ais523> there's been so much activity recently
15:41:20 <arseniiv> though they won’t be able to avoid it if they choose to work with monoids or rigs heheheheh
15:41:57 <arseniiv> cpressey: ais523: what’s it called?
15:42:21 <cpressey> arseniiv: I think they prefer to speak in terms of homomorphisms, since it amounts to basically the same thing?
15:42:42 <ais523> arseniiv: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tandem
15:43:18 <ais523> I also created an esolang recently, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Annihilator
15:43:36 <int-e> > 4 `mod` (-7) -- may use different representatives though
15:43:38 <lambdabot>  -3
15:43:55 <arseniiv> cpressey: they like normal subgroups and ideals and that’s very good these things exist at all but sometimes they don’t, and anyways many quotient objects may be formulated as usual quotient sets with an induced structure, and that is the basic thing anyone needs to read stated in clear text, I think
15:44:11 <spruit11> > 4 `mod` 0
15:44:14 <lambdabot>  *Exception: divide by zero
15:44:17 <ais523> > (-4) `mod` (-7)
15:44:19 <lambdabot>  -4
15:44:23 <ais523> > (-4) `rem` (-7)
15:44:25 <lambdabot>  -4
15:44:36 <ais523> > (-4) `mod` (7)
15:44:36 <arseniiv> I can’t get over The waterfall model still
15:44:38 <lambdabot>  3
15:44:40 <ais523> > (-4) `rem` (7)
15:44:43 <lambdabot>  -4
15:45:03 <ais523> arseniiv: what bothers you about it?
15:45:29 <arseniiv> ais523: not that something bothers me, it’s just too neat a thing
15:45:35 <ais523> actually, the main thing that bothers me about it is that it was easier to prove TC than it should have been
15:45:35 <cpressey> arseniiv: I do agree that a clear explanation of quotients in abstract algebra would be nice to have and I've never really seen one; I'm still pieceing the ideas together, myself.
15:45:43 <ais523> which suggests that maybe there's an even simpler language along those lines
15:45:58 <arseniiv> how that was discovered that recently is strange!
15:46:05 <ais523> normally the easiest-to-implement languages are things like 2-Echo Tag which are a complete pain to prove
15:46:20 <ais523> arseniiv: and I discovered it at least twice before I noticed, possibly three times
15:46:23 <arseniiv> <ais523> which suggests that maybe there's an even simpler language along those lines => that would be even more mesmerizing
15:47:22 <ais523> one thing I noticed is that The Waterfall Model can trivially implement linear recurrence relations, but I suspect those aren't TC
15:47:28 <ais523> would be fun if they were though
15:48:09 <int-e> ais523: `rem` is the one that doesn't give representatives because it matches `quot` which rounds towards zero, whereas `div` rounds towards negative infinity (which is where a negative divisor makes a difference).
15:48:57 <ais523> right
15:52:47 <arseniiv> cpressey: the basic idea, for any algebraic model or even a structure with relations, is for the equivalence relation to be consistent (or what it’s called) with them, and that precisely gives us to induce that same kind of structure in the quotient set. Consistency is simple: ~ is consistent with a relation R iff (x1 ~ y1 and … and xn ~ yn) implies R(x1, …, xn) <=> R(y1, …, yn). For an operation, one just takes a corresponding relation: e. g. 
15:52:47 <arseniiv> for + one takes (x, y, z) ↦ x + y = z. In general this would give us ~ is consistent with o when (x1 = y1 and … and xn = yn) implies o(x1, …, xn) = o(y1, …, yn)
15:56:52 <cpressey> arseniiv: yeah, I think I get it at this point, but it's taken me a while to get to this point.  As I see it it's a homomorphism, and as such it has to preserve the properties of all of the operators.  Which is a bit annoying in my particular application of it - some of those operators aren;t really relevant in the quotient algebra - I guess I have to say they're still there but we can safely ignore them
15:57:03 <arseniiv> that tells us that we can unambiguously define a relation or an operation on equivalence classes (by their representatives), and AFAIK this is the most general condition for that
15:57:43 <cpressey> alas, I must be off now - have a good weekend
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15:57:45 <arseniiv> <cpressey> yeah it taken me too a while to recognize all the cogs underlying
15:58:02 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey have a good one too!
15:58:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:59:22 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74030&oldid=74028 * ZippyMagician * (+4) /* Programs */
16:04:25 <arseniiv> what I like is how one can overgeneralize this framework to structures which have several carriers and also maybe “constant domains” which are the same for any structure of this type
16:05:26 <arseniiv> in operations and relations’ signatures, carriers would be like type variables and the latter domains would be like type constants
16:06:46 <arseniiv> in this way we could say metric spaces are certain instances of this kind of structure. where there are a carrier X and a constant domain R involved. Though I think isometries are still more refined that morphisms for that kind of structure, I should check
16:07:54 <arseniiv> also maybe one could incorporate topological spaces and confluence spaces and whatnot in this framework too, using a more elaborate language in signatures
16:09:32 <arseniiv> as it’s particularly well-known that dependent types help describing axioms of the structure in its definition directly (with all the operations and relations), so maybe some higher types may allow describing these spaces in the analogous manner
16:09:50 <arseniiv> not that it’s useful by itself of course
16:25:05 <arseniiv> ais523: at [x], [y], when x is called in [x], shouldn’t the result be [], [a b z], [b a z], [y]? (in the article, there’s [x] instead of []). If so, maybe you wanted to define x as x in the first definition?
16:26:57 <esowiki> [[Annihilator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74031&oldid=73920 * Ais523 * (+5) /* Example */ fix thinko
16:27:11 <esowiki> [[Annihilator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74032&oldid=74031 * Ais523 * (+5) /* Computational class */ here, too
16:27:20 <ais523> arseniiv: yes, sorry
16:27:33 <ais523> this sort of thing is common when you design an esolang in your head and don't have an implementation
16:27:42 <arseniiv> yeah
16:27:56 <arseniiv> I think I ended up much the same way many times
16:28:21 <ais523> some of my esolangs are designed to investigate profound ideas in computation, or for proving things TC, or whatever
16:28:34 <ais523> but some are just random ideas that I thought it would be interesting to document, and Annihilator is one of those
16:29:10 <arseniiv> the last one which is finite state (thank to int-e’s good eye) is an example of that: initially I defined things in such a way a program only returned 0 (if halted)
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16:30:27 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74033&oldid=74030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Cat program */
16:37:26 <esowiki> [[Gecho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74034&oldid=70798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) link + cats
16:40:33 <esowiki> [[Category:Finite state automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74035&oldid=22635 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
16:42:21 <esowiki> [[BFStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74036&oldid=73005 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) rm period
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16:45:30 <b_jonas> what the heck happened while I wasn't here? https://esolangs.org/logs/ webpage is unreachable (ping fizzie) and https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/ is missing two or three days
16:46:22 <kspalaiologos> ugh
16:46:23 <kspalaiologos> no idea
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16:47:05 <ais523> clog is still here, so presumably it was logging
16:47:35 <ais523> yep
16:49:06 <kspalaiologos> I've filled my log gaps
16:49:58 <kspalaiologos> and I know the reason - a netsplit
16:50:15 <kspalaiologos> my bot has died because I didn't yet set up a reliable way of automagically getting it up (lol)
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16:55:21 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I see
16:55:36 <b_jonas> thanks
16:55:38 <kspalaiologos> done
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16:55:46 <kspalaiologos> the bot will no longer die on netsplits
16:55:48 <kspalaiologos> and it will rejoin
16:55:51 <b_jonas> nice!
16:55:55 <kspalaiologos> some stupid perl engineering
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16:56:30 <b_jonas> just make sure the rejoin has some reasonable limits and sleeps so it doesn't fall into one of those stupid reconned-rejoin-die loops that some bots fall into
16:57:03 <kspalaiologos> it's done using a lock file
16:57:16 <kspalaiologos> when the bot quits, it's removing the lock file, and when it's ran, it creates a lock file
16:57:41 <kspalaiologos> the update.pl script (I put it in cron and it will run every 30min) will push the logs to github AND re-run the bot if the lock is missing
16:57:56 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sure, but I mean a loop with like reconnecting successfully every 10 minutes for three hours, after which a mod wakes up and bans them
16:59:17 <b_jonas> even every 30 minutes might be a problem if it does so indefinitely, because this channel is often slow with mods
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16:59:46 <kspalaiologos> I'll add reconnection attempts
17:00:13 <b_jonas> ideally you probably want some kind of incremental timeouts, where it reconnects immediately the first time, but then with progressively more sleep, and after like 14 attempts it waits a day between reconnections
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17:02:26 <kspalaiologos> my IRC client crashed
17:02:34 <ais523> reconnecting once every half hour doesn't seem excessively spammy to me?
17:02:52 <kspalaiologos> anyways, I've added a mechanism that will stop attempting after there have been 5 reconnect attempts before
17:02:58 <ais523> that's 48 quitjoins a day, there's normally much more conversation than that
17:02:59 <kspalaiologos> and it will drop me an e-mail
17:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: it's probably borderline
17:03:21 <b_jonas> on some days we have very little traffic
17:03:21 <ais523> make sure it doesn't email you every half-hour, that can get annoying quickly
17:03:30 <ais523> I once accidentally configured my server to email me every minute
17:03:49 <ais523> luckily I was online at the time and, unsurprisingly, noticed pretty quickly
17:04:17 <kspalaiologos> if it will mail me every half an hour, I'll notice it fsater
17:04:20 <ais523> and I run my own mailserver so there was no issue with address reputation as a consequence
17:04:28 <kspalaiologos> also, the counter zeroes, so 5 * 30min = 2,5h
17:04:41 <kspalaiologos> a mail every 2 and 1/2 hour isn't much trouble for me
17:05:09 <ais523> doesn't that mean it'll try to connect 4 times every 2½ hours?
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17:06:23 <kspalaiologos> tries once => wait for 30 min => tries 2nd time => wait for 30min => tries 3rd time => wait for 30min => tries 4th time => wait for 30min => tries 5th time => errrr send me an email, stop attempting
17:06:28 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey wait, if R & R = 0 then 0 = (R | S) & (R | S) = R & R | R & S | S & R | S & S = R & S | S & R = R & S | R & S = R & S, is that right?..
17:06:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:06:44 <kspalaiologos> if R&R=0 then R must be 0
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17:07:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Gorbit99 *  New user account
17:07:32 <ais523> not in Tandem, where R&R is artificially 0 because & is more like an exclusive-and
17:07:32 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: hehe there’s another meaning to &, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tandem :)
17:07:38 <kspalaiologos> oh f.ck
17:07:43 <kspalaiologos> the bot spilled its stderr on my screen
17:07:58 <ais523> also, I love esolangs, they make concepts like "exclusive-and" viable
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17:08:01 <kspalaiologos> I can't see anything
17:08:03 <kspalaiologos> did it quit?
17:08:17 <ais523> gitlogger is still online; is that your bot?
17:08:26 <kspalaiologos> yes, ah, I see the problem
17:08:27 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
17:08:28 <kspalaiologos> wchar print
17:08:51 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, I thought you were working on one of these declarative languages, with the intent that it should be more expressive in a declarative way than Brachylog
17:10:01 <kspalaiologos> alright, /redraw fixes the problem
17:10:18 <ais523> b_jonas: yes
17:10:21 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey so AFAIU the R & R = 0 is always true only for atomic rules, but the example above shows complex rules won’t be annihilated when conjusquared
17:10:21 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:11:09 <ais523> arseniiv: is there actually a requirement for | to distribute over &?
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17:11:55 <arseniiv> ais523: hm maybe not, I had read it in “Conjunction distributes over disjunction: Ri & (Rj | Rk) = (Ri & Rj) | (Ri & Rk) (and the other direction too, because it's commutative.)”
17:13:42 <arseniiv> wait, this is the needed distributivity, I thought there is the other one
17:14:07 <arseniiv> hm
17:15:08 <arseniiv> it should be formally proven in Agda^W^W
17:16:40 <arseniiv> were there languages like Tandem before? Seems very cool to me at the end
17:16:58 <ais523> what property of it do you consider interesting?
17:17:22 <ais523> there are certainly languages which play around in a similar space in terms of semantics, but they don't necessarily have the same properties that Tandem does
17:18:09 <arseniiv> I haven’t thought of rewriting many disjoint places before, though I can see it may be grown from my questions about rewriting S-expressions a while ago, dumb me
17:20:26 <arseniiv> also a while ago I made a string-rewriting thing which used if the rule was applied succesfully to continue applying following rules, though that wasn’t by all means minimal and I artifically bounded it to sub-TC by requiring placing a finite repeat count for each loop
17:20:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74037&oldid=73967 * Gorbit99 * (+117) 
17:20:49 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74038&oldid=74033 * Gorbit99 * (-713) fixed some incorrect info
17:20:53 <arseniiv> I intended it to be a text-generating tool but it ended up unwieldy
17:21:12 <kspalaiologos> I spent too much time yesterday and two days ago figuring 3sp
17:21:42 <kspalaiologos> this language seems just... so volatile, so spaghetti-y that I can't find a good way of programming it other than either genetic algorithm OR compiling some predictable assembly into large-ass code
17:22:00 <ais523> the latter approach is the better one I think
17:22:04 <ais523> although, the hardest part is startup
17:22:12 <kspalaiologos> I'll end up with malbolge 2.0
17:22:21 <kspalaiologos> with programs being bigger than the observable universe
17:22:24 <ais523> which places some fairly extreme constraints on your program because the startup code has to run every iteration
17:22:38 <kspalaiologos> I did such a thing with asm2bf while implementing labels
17:22:45 <kspalaiologos> the entire code runs inside a large loop
17:23:02 <ais523> start with "freestart 3*", where you get to initialize memory as you like separately from the program, as a wimpmode
17:23:10 <ais523> that isn't too hard to program in once you see the tricks
17:23:19 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> with programs being bigger than the observable universe => hm that gives an idea of executing compressed programs... surely some languages would allow that?
17:23:19 <kspalaiologos> it's 100% doable, but I just can't notice some things
17:23:38 <kspalaiologos> if you managed to write a good malbolge interpreter that would run my programs compressed
17:23:40 <ais523> arseniiv: in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip the program is infinitely long, but compresses well
17:23:49 <kspalaiologos> I'd really really appreciate it :p
17:24:06 <ais523> what sort of repetition normally exists within your programs?
17:24:14 <kspalaiologos> my malbolge programs? no-ops
17:24:26 <kspalaiologos> to nail the memory adresses
17:24:30 <ais523> do they execute/get encrypted? or are they jumped over?
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17:24:41 <kspalaiologos> 50/50 I'd say
17:24:52 <kspalaiologos> you'd have to figure out what does each one do
17:24:59 <kspalaiologos> but I believe it's all doable
17:25:00 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: no thanks :D I don’t even into Malbolge, I mean in the sense I don’t even remember how it works at all. It ciphers something and has several opcodes and that’s all I remember
17:25:10 <ais523> the hard part isn't so much running the compressed program, but updating it as it encrypts
17:25:15 <kspalaiologos> the malbolge code follows a lot of repetitions
17:25:20 <ais523> within the compressed program
17:25:33 <kspalaiologos> I mean, you could theoretically parse my malbolge programs into some form of readable assembly using regex
17:25:43 <kspalaiologos> because I haven't gone crazy on golfing the output
17:25:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74040&oldid=72878 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) rdr
17:26:43 <kspalaiologos> I compile them from a very sophisticated assembly
17:26:54 <ais523> I'd say a "compressed Malbolge executor" would be trivial, with an appropriately designed compression format, if not for the fact that Malbolge is self-modifying and you need to remember in what ways the program has self-modified
17:26:56 <kspalaiologos> my current opus magnum is a forth-like interpreter in Malbolge
17:27:19 <kspalaiologos> it's overall around two megabytes of my handcrafted assembly code
17:27:28 <kspalaiologos> and it works, very slowly
17:27:37 <kspalaiologos> I've left a fact(4) program to run overnight
17:27:40 <kspalaiologos> and it produced correct result
17:27:49 <ais523> I wonder if it would be efficient to store the original program, plus a count of encryptions that have been performed on each memory cell, plus a separate sparse array for memory cells that have been modified directly
17:27:58 <ais523> and do dynamic RLE on the encryption counts
17:28:07 <kspalaiologos> I.. don't think so
17:28:26 <kspalaiologos> because Malbolge follows the von neumann architecture, so you store data with the code
17:28:34 <ais523> right, that's what the final array is for
17:28:35 <kspalaiologos> and the code can grow quite big
17:28:37 <arseniiv>  I don’t even into Malbolge => am not*
17:28:45 <kspalaiologos> I mean - my malbolge programs often swap
17:28:50 <kspalaiologos> to produce a meaningful result
17:28:55 <kspalaiologos> and I have a machine with 16 gigabytes of RAM
17:29:08 <ais523> I think with most Malbolge programs, the proportion of the memory that is used as useful data is very small, right?
17:29:16 <kspalaiologos> yes
17:29:24 <kspalaiologos> if you find out the storage format, you're pretty much home
17:29:27 <ais523> it's almost all either a) padding, b) self-encrypting code where the encryption isn't useful it just happens
17:29:33 <esowiki> [[Template:Cs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74041&oldid=73533 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
17:29:34 <kspalaiologos> yes
17:29:50 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> my current opus magnum is a forth-like interpreter in Malbolge => wow
17:29:53 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74042&oldid=74038 * Gorbit99 * (-5) typo
17:30:14 <ais523> and at any given instant in time, there are going to be large runs in the number of times that specific instructions have encrypted
17:30:34 <esowiki> [[Category:Particle automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74043&oldid=8177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) cat
17:30:36 <kspalaiologos> yes, and a viable thing is also guessing the encryption patterns
17:30:40 <ais523> so if we just store it in terms of ranges, "from address 10000 to address 12345 every instruction has encrypted 5 times"
17:30:53 <ais523> then the encryption counts shouldn't need much memory to store
17:30:54 <kspalaiologos> like, if you place a no-op somewhere, after executing it can turn into a movd, a jump, a halt, and god knows what else
17:31:15 <kspalaiologos> when you're preserving functions, for example the movd wrapper, the movd is executed, and then it turns into a nop, and then back again
17:31:18 <kspalaiologos> that's called a cycle
17:31:22 <kspalaiologos> or at least that's how I call it
17:31:34 <kspalaiologos> I don't think there's proper terminology for malbolge
17:31:35 <ais523> working out what's in memory from original value plus encryption count is constant time, if the address hasn't been written through d
17:32:17 <ais523> …does anyone write Malbolge programs where addresses are written through d and /then/ encrypted?
17:32:59 <arseniiv> (BTW what would you advice when one does want to write a translator but doesn’t want to hand-wite a parser nor to use an existing parser framework nor to complete their own framework at last? Maybe there still is an option?)
17:33:04 <ais523> that seems a bit unlikely to me because it's a hard operation to make work, the original Malbolge intepreter actually segfaults if the written value is outside the ASCII range (presumably because the case was never tested)
17:33:25 <int-e> arseniiv: Train a neural network on examples ;-)
17:33:42 <ais523> arseniiv: haven't you excluded all the cases apart from persuading someone else to write a new parser framework and using that?
17:34:14 <arseniiv> ais523: oh! that’s an interesting case though I don’t want to go that way yet
17:34:27 <kspalaiologos> well, depends on what do you mean by this
17:34:43 <ais523> or, well, waiting for someone to write a new parser framework and using it
17:34:44 <kspalaiologos> for example, if I have a movd, I call it, and then restore the old instruction back
17:34:58 <kspalaiologos> that's not the most efficient approach, but it's simple and reliable
17:35:07 <kspalaiologos> so my proposition is
17:35:19 <ais523> actually, another option that isn't logically excluded is to abandon your own parser framework, write an entirely new one and use it, but it seems like more effort than the options that have already been excluded
17:35:33 <kspalaiologos> somehow finding out where the real instructions are stored, identify the calling and restoring code, and then build upon that to optimize real instruction calls
17:35:53 <ais523> ooh, I think I realised the right format for storing memory
17:36:06 <ais523> if a value is in the ASCII range, you store it as an encryption count, starting from some constant ASCII character
17:36:14 <ais523> if outside the range, you just store it as the number
17:36:19 <ais523> then you use some sort of dynamic RLE-ing
17:36:37 <arseniiv> ais523: hmmm hm I’ll go persuade some friends then :D // oh, that new idea is what I think I would end up doing some time after, though that new framework would be just a rewriting of the larger portion of the old and that’s definitely still a work so I procrastinate all I can
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17:37:27 <arseniiv> (also do you have a SAT solver somewhere inside, I didn’t think there can be so many missed perfectly valid alternatives at all :D)
17:37:53 <ais523> I was trying to run through the truth table in my head
17:38:04 <ais523> or, not the full table, but at least identifying the variables
17:38:11 <arseniiv> hm that’s particularly useful
17:38:20 <ais523> it's similar enough to esoprogramming that it didn't seem that much out of character
17:38:34 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74044&oldid=74042 * ZippyMagician * (+159) Explanation
17:38:48 <arseniiv> yeah I even saw the contracted truth tables or what was they called, they can be useful for manipulating in the head
17:38:53 <int-e> arseniiv: it's like solving a Sudoku ;)
17:39:22 <arseniiv> int-e: the thing I don’t enjoy too much but do when there’s nothing else to do, yeah
17:40:43 <int-e> I'm no good at Sudokus, really. Fortunately there are plenty of other logic puzzles that exercise your internal SAT solver. :)
17:40:50 <arseniiv> (when there’s nothing else to do and a sudoku nearby; I won’t try googling one or downloading a sudoku app. Though once I had a good one in an old phone, which marked possible variations with a good clear font)
17:41:05 <arseniiv> int-e: lolol
17:41:20 <arseniiv> I should remember the “internal SAT solver” thing
17:41:42 <int-e> arseniiv: that was *your* idea
17:42:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+524) .
17:42:08 <arseniiv> I pretend it wasn’t
17:42:21 <arseniiv> ah
17:42:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:GORBITSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74046 * X39 * (+291) Created page with "== GORBITSA Program Format == It was never specified that GORBITSA format is as followed <blockquote>Instructions must be separated by spaces, an instruction consists of a val..."
17:42:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74047&oldid=74046 * X39 * (+42) 
17:42:46 <arseniiv> no, I phrased that sufficiently differently so I wouldn’t think this form all by myself
17:42:57 <arseniiv> so no you gen thanks after all
17:43:00 <arseniiv> get*
17:44:05 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74048&oldid=74044 * X39 * (-48) /* Specification */ Fixed mistakes
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17:47:09 <arseniiv> okay I think handcrafted top-down parsers aren’t yet too bad a taste, especially for a grammar like Tandem has
17:47:44 <arseniiv> also top-down parsing does seem like the thing most comfortable to do by hand
17:49:16 <fizzie> "Recursive descent" is the usual word, and they're pretty common to handcraft.
17:49:21 <fizzie> Go's parser is one of those.
17:49:27 <kspalaiologos> would someone like to proofread / help me making an interpreter for this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esofun
17:49:40 <kspalaiologos> ultimately I plan on creating _the ultimate_ golfing language
17:49:57 <arseniiv> also do you know Pratt parsers? I implemented a toy with them once but I think they aren’t much better in error reporting (and other UX things for a parser framework’s client) than other approaches so I ended up leaving them where they were
17:50:07 <int-e> kspalaiologos: pfft
17:50:43 <kspalaiologos> what :p
17:50:47 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: but that description is still too long
17:50:51 <int-e> "ultimate <anything>"
17:51:05 <int-e> okay, *almost* anything
17:51:08 <arseniiv> the ultimate antepenultimatum
17:51:22 <kspalaiologos> it'd be ultimate due to it's design goals
17:51:23 <kspalaiologos> just look at them
17:51:50 <arseniiv> I like partial orders for the reason there may be more than one maximal elements :D
17:52:22 <int-e> kspalaiologos: I'll read it when I've found the ultimate natural number.
17:53:14 <int-e> . o O ( naming of art periods is silly, but I think we have not yet had an ultimate one. )
17:53:29 <ais523> I'm not too keen on stack-based golfing languages, they're great for linear programs in the linear-logic sense (i.e. programs where each input and intermediate value is used exactly once) but it's common to want to use values multiple times
17:53:50 <ais523> and stack-based languages often have to waste a considerable portion of their command-space expressing how that happens
17:54:08 <arseniiv> int-e: the historical periods too, though maybe they aren’t that bad in English and other languages, I didn’t look at these
17:54:36 <int-e> arseniiv: that's related, but art periods are more finely grained
17:54:47 <int-e> so the silliness becomes more obvious
17:55:44 <ais523> I also think that in golfing languages, it's normally a mistake for there to be any distinction between a string and a list of characters, or between a character and its codepoint (the only time when it isn't is if you have overloaded operators)
17:56:38 <kspalaiologos> ais523: I don't think so - stack based approach opens opportunities for tacit and concentative programming
17:56:49 <kspalaiologos> and so far it's been proven that these paradigms shine when it comes to code golf
17:56:52 <ais523> tacit languages normally don't have a stack
17:57:04 <arseniiv> <int-e> so the silliness becomes more obvious => also in different art forms they use the same word for different periods, AFAIR
17:57:11 <ais523> stacks aren't incompatible with the idea of tacit programming, but also aren't required
17:57:40 <kspalaiologos> forth is a tacit and concentative programming language
17:57:46 <kspalaiologos> so is J, APL, K and so forth
17:58:06 <ais523> forth isn't tacit in a way that saves bytes, though
17:58:41 <kspalaiologos> well, I plan on adding absurd amount of builtins
17:58:47 <kspalaiologos> triggered by various adverbs
17:59:01 <kspalaiologos> this makes me think that well, that's a lot of room for optimizations
17:59:01 <ais523> I'm actually going the other way with my golfing languages
17:59:12 <ais523> trying to reduce the number of builtins so that they can have shorter names
17:59:25 <kspalaiologos> then it's not good for golfing, because you'll get outgolfed by Mathematica
17:59:28 <ais523> but making each of them crazily context-sensitive to increase how powerful it is
17:59:43 <kspalaiologos> that's exactly like the adverb system works in my language.
18:00:01 <ais523> it's not that rare for a full program that does something in, say, Jelly to be shorter than the name of the builtin in Mathematica
18:01:08 <arseniiv> yep, Mathematica surely takes the eloquent path to naming
18:01:10 <kspalaiologos> sigh, Jelly
18:01:21 <ais523> anyway, one major category of builtins that doesn't seem to be mentioned is builtins with block arguments
18:01:23 <kspalaiologos> if mathematica has names like Jelly builtins, and had them triggered by adverbs
18:01:27 <kspalaiologos> then well
18:01:57 <ais523> most mathematica builtins take lots of parameters though, and need them to avoid being too inflexible
18:02:24 <kspalaiologos> 256 adverbs, 256 instructions = 65536 possible builtins to squish into the language
18:02:30 <arseniiv> are there golf languages utilizing Hindley—Milner typing? Though I think I asked that and someone answered already
18:02:37 <kspalaiologos> that you have accessible using two keystrokes
18:02:45 <kspalaiologos> and sometimes, in 70% of times, using a single keystroke
18:03:08 <ais523> arseniiv: I answered https://esolangs.org/wiki/Husk to a similar question
18:03:22 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: but how would one program in it^W^W^W^W^W^W^W
18:03:44 <arseniiv> ais523: ah! thanks I think it was you that time even
18:03:51 <int-e> arseniiv: counting to 7 is too much to ask
18:03:51 <ais523> kspalaiologos: you can't have 256 of each and have them both accessible in a single byte
18:04:03 <ais523> unless you insist on having exactly one adverb on every instruction
18:04:10 <int-e> arseniiv: but I think you deleted everything except the kspalaiologos: part
18:05:15 <arseniiv> int-e: that’s intentional, yeah. Hm or I got lost in the semantics
18:05:21 <kspalaiologos> ais523: adverbs are toggle/set
18:05:29 <kspalaiologos> so you can have the adverb already set, so you don't have to type it again
18:05:41 <kspalaiologos> arseniiv: that's the only real problem
18:05:42 <ais523> kspalaiologos: how do you distinguish between an adverb and an instruction?
18:05:47 <kspalaiologos> programming will be hard as heck
18:05:48 <ais523> you can't have 256 of each
18:05:56 <ais523> you need a bit to say which is which
18:06:02 <kspalaiologos> ais523: no, you're getting it wrong
18:06:09 <kspalaiologos> let's use pseudocode
18:06:23 <kspalaiologos> "toggle adverb B; do operation; do operation;"
18:06:33 <kspalaiologos> 1st and 2nd operation will work with the adverb 
18:06:36 <kspalaiologos> b toggled
18:06:42 <ais523> kspalaiologos: you have 256 "toggle adverb" bytes and 256 "do operation" bytes
18:06:48 <ais523> that's more than 256 possibilities for each byte
18:07:10 <kspalaiologos> or, in literal code, tB..
18:07:23 <kspalaiologos> instruction t toggles an adverb
18:07:34 <ais523> the total number of adverbs + the total number of instructions needs to equal 256, if you want an 8-bit character set
18:07:57 <kspalaiologos> I'm afraid that you can't parse this language without ambiguities
18:08:08 <ais523> oh wow, now /that's/ an interesting answer
18:08:24 <kspalaiologos> you're looking at this problem like, if B is an adverb I set with tB, B is not usable as an instructio
18:08:27 <ais523> if you can make that work, the language got a lot more interesting
18:08:31 <kspalaiologos> and this is false, because you can
18:08:56 <kspalaiologos> there are also tons upon tons of type corrections and most operations introduce automatic reduce
18:09:02 <kspalaiologos> because the main datatype is a stack of lists
18:09:03 <ais523> hmm, is "toggle adverb" an instruction?
18:09:22 <kspalaiologos> it's `t'
18:09:31 <kspalaiologos> inb4: you can have t as an adverb
18:10:02 <ais523> oh, I see
18:10:04 <kspalaiologos> current adverb list is in pont 5, any other adverb can be flipped, but it makes no sense, because it doesn't change anything
18:10:13 <ais523> so instead of 1 byte to toggle and 1 byte per instruction
18:10:22 <ais523> you need, in effect, 2 bytes to operate a toggle
18:10:28 <kspalaiologos> yes
18:10:29 <ais523> but the instructions are 1 byte each when not toggled
18:10:34 <kspalaiologos> yes
18:10:44 <kspalaiologos> I also plan on somehow optimizing the toggles for size
18:10:52 <ais523> I think this can be a sensible way to design a language
18:11:01 <ais523> although it's possible that your numbers are off
18:11:10 <kspalaiologos> I plan on adding the instruction that will unpack a character to bits
18:11:17 <ais523> 256 sets seems like it's maybe too much
18:11:19 <kspalaiologos> and then set the adverbs in given range with this
18:11:33 <kspalaiologos> that's why I'm allowing to set for example adverb state to a list
18:11:44 <kspalaiologos> so you can compress your adverbs and then unpack them in runtime, and pop it to the adverb list
18:11:45 <ais523> err, 2²⁵⁶ sets is definitely too much
18:11:54 <ais523> even though there will be a lot of overlap
18:11:57 <kspalaiologos> because there will be an instruction for compression/decompression
18:12:23 <kspalaiologos> I also plan on implementing logical date operations
18:12:33 <kspalaiologos> unlike literally any other non-eso language out there
18:12:36 <ais523> maybe just have 8 bits of adverbs, for a total of 256 instruction sets, and have the toggle instruction unpack a literal byte?
18:12:48 <kspalaiologos> that's one way to do it
18:12:54 <kspalaiologos> i'll consider it
18:13:53 <kspalaiologos> ah, and you can also bend the type correction rules
18:14:18 <kspalaiologos> and I plan on adding a builtin to override all the existing instructions via the link mechanism
18:14:38 <kspalaiologos> so that you can create a link bound to either an instruction or an ID, that will execute and then pass the control to another link
18:14:40 <kspalaiologos> with the same name
18:15:03 <kspalaiologos> so you could e.g. override 0 with f0RN
18:15:13 <kspalaiologos> this has no effect, but you could theoretically put something useful there
18:15:40 <kspalaiologos> you can also declare identifier links, not bound to an instruction, rather, an identifier
18:15:45 <kspalaiologos> that you can call using '. syntax
18:16:01 <ais523> I take it this is designed to be a golfing language for writing large programs, then?
18:16:15 <arseniiv> hm now I thought “simple complex” and suddenly there is an idea of writing programs as cell complexes
18:16:31 <kspalaiologos> well, yes
18:16:39 <kspalaiologos> because writing simple programs in it makes no sense
18:16:43 <kspalaiologos> but for large scale code golf, it's perfect
18:16:52 <kspalaiologos> and very competetive, because most of the times you can golf the hell out of the code
18:20:07 <kspalaiologos> imagine, you have to for example golf a SKI calculus evaluator
18:20:33 <kspalaiologos> it'd be quite easy with functional languages and all that fluff, but stuff like osable or jelly don't seem like they have a simply and small way of solving this problem
18:20:47 <kspalaiologos> while in this language, there's a high chance you'd get it done in well under 50 characters
18:21:08 <arseniiv> better, directed ones. Starting with 2-cells, one has a big selection of polygons to choose from, 3-cells may vary in form further, but maybe even with 2-complexes which consist of 0-, 1- and 2-cells, one can encode something in a good way. There can be edges (1-cells) which are attached only by one of their vertices, any number of this kind of edge sticking from any vertex. Maybe one could use boundary and coboundary operators to define actions… And
18:21:08 <arseniiv>  maybe the state of a program can be made a form on the complex, or a collection of forms of all degrees (here, 0-, 1- and 2-, each on cells of a corresponding order). Hmm
18:21:11 <ais523> that seems like an interesting challenge, actually
18:22:39 <arseniiv> ais523: kspalaiologos: is there a way algebraic types could work in a golflang?
18:23:35 <kspalaiologos> that's a bit hairy when I think about it, but I guess it's doable
18:23:42 <ais523> what do you mean by algebraic types? sum types and product types?
18:23:56 <ais523> normally golflangs are untyped, so you just use heterogenous lists for everything
18:23:57 <arseniiv> tagged sum types
18:24:07 <arseniiv> with products in each alternative
18:24:08 <ais523> e.g. instead of a(1,2) you use ['a',1,2]
18:24:33 <arseniiv> though it can be tagged sums + products not packed together
18:24:42 <ais523> or, well, you use whatever representation gives you the shortest code, but golflangs are normally good at operating on lists even if they have distinguished elements
18:25:16 <arseniiv> I’d say heterogeneous lists would suffice if there’s something like pattern matching
18:26:17 <arseniiv> though I don’t think one can do something feasible without constructing case tables
18:26:25 <arseniiv> and they would take up space
18:26:39 <ais523> I'm thinking about how I'd write this program
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18:27:00 <ais523> my current plan is to use executable code as the tags
18:27:15 <ais523> and just eval it to do the equivalent of the case table
18:27:26 <ais523> that works best if you have only one table, of course
18:28:28 <arseniiv> hm how frequently is there an instruction which takes [f, args…] to f(args…)?
18:28:50 <ais523> in Jelly it's a two-byter
18:29:13 <ais523> maybe a third when it's part of a larger program, to disambiguate what applies to what
18:29:40 <arseniiv> though one table constraint is not good for big tasks
18:29:46 <ais523> would be vḤ, I think
18:29:57 <ais523> no, other way round, Ḥv
18:31:00 <ais523> err, Ḣv
18:31:09 <ais523> like this: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8///hjkVl////j1YPVtcx1DHSMY4FAA
18:56:38 <ais523> I guess you could simply use numeric tags, and index into a list of code fragments
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19:08:50 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74049&oldid=74048 * Megarev * (+162) /* Programs */
19:09:07 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74050&oldid=74049 * Megarev * (+8) /* Cool Stairs (By Megarev) */
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19:34:34 <zzo38> I was working on my own golf programming language involving the PC character set
19:37:51 <zzo38> Its data types are: number (a rational number with an optional French suit), list (can contain data of multiple types), function, dictionary (key/value pairs with no duplicate keys), mark (there is only one kind of mark; this is similar to the mark in PostScript).
20:07:14 <ais523> SKI combinator calculus in 40 bytes of Jelly, and I haven't really tried to properly golf it yet: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9Rw5zDO47uebiz5XDLsU3JCUD@o6Y1D3fMBzIOLX7UMPPhzmYgs@zhju0Pd@57uHOWjrX@o4a5QPahJVz@D3d3H1p0aOvh@UA9ZfqHtvo83N11aKv9////o6Oj1YvVddQz1WMhBDI/Wz02FgA
20:07:52 <ais523> or to write the program itself, “øżṄÄƲc`“€ḟ“£’ṃ“vḷṾṚ,;/”Ṿ¤¶Oị¢µß€v/µLỊµ?
20:09:49 <ais523> evaluation is eager, function before argument; it goes into an infinite loop (sadly not tail-recursive) if the SKI term doesn't normalize, or prints out some Jelly code that implements the function in question if it does normalize
20:11:35 <ais523> come to think of it, this also shows why writing golfing languages designed for large programs is kind-of pointless: you could instead write a small decompressor and use eval, as is done here
20:13:22 <esowiki> [[Beautiful day]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74051 * Hakerh400 * (+2098) +[[Beautiful day]]
20:13:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74052&oldid=73985 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Beautiful day]]
20:13:30 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74053&oldid=73775 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Beautiful day]]
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20:14:38 <ais523> services should be working again now
20:16:17 <b_jonas> uh, that's a lot of scrollback I should read later. is there something that should really concern me?
20:16:51 <ais523> you mean from today? or from the earlier logs that have now been fixed?
20:16:59 <ais523> it's just been basic, on-topic conversation, there's just been a lot of it
20:17:06 <ais523> from today, at least
20:17:06 <b_jonas> from today, after I entered
20:17:26 <b_jonas> there wasn't much from before that, I looked at the one logs server that was still available
20:17:54 <b_jonas> only even though I was joined, I was looking at other more urgent stuff
20:22:00 <ais523> sadly Jelly's escaping syntax blows up exponentially, so my SKI interpreter in Jelly isn't going to work on nontrivial programs
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20:32:37 <t20kdc> looking at tio.run, I'm curious as to how the BitBitJump interpreter is supposed to work
20:32:58 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74054&oldid=74050 * ZippyMagician * (+1113) Add tic-tac-toe example
20:34:21 <t20kdc> aaah, someone has created a standardized assembly notation for BitBitJump, that explains it
20:42:14 <esowiki> [[Beautiful day]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74055&oldid=74051 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Interpreters */ cats
20:44:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * TrolledWoods *  New user account
20:46:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74056&oldid=74037 * TrolledWoods * (+95) /* Introductions */
20:49:57 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74057&oldid=74054 * TrolledWoods * (+361) /* Programs */
20:50:45 <b_jonas> "trying to reduce the number of builtins so that they can have shorter names" => does that really help? you can have lots of builtins but huffmanize them so that common ones are encoded to short names. you don't lose a lot by adding extra builtins with long names in a golf language.
20:51:19 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74058&oldid=74057 * TrolledWoods * (+1) /* Saurons eye (By TrolledWoods) */
20:58:17 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: but not many people actually do golfing on large programs (... says the guy who submitted a 202 byte program for a simple golf challenge)
21:03:16 <b_jonas> "<ais523> sadly Jelly's escaping syntax blows up exponentially" => that's sad. it's a pity that K&R didn't define a short escape syntax for a backslash in a string literal other than "\\", so now you can only use "\x5C" because nobody managed to standardize a short escape syntax later, by fear that nobody else would speak it
21:03:44 <b_jonas> and it might be too late because backslash followed by anything means something in some languages
21:04:05 <b_jonas> you can still define an escape syntax for your language, but not for anything that will spread and be uniform everywhere
21:04:29 <b_jonas> well, technically "\x5C" or "\??/" 
21:07:07 <b_jonas> or "\134" I guess, but "\x5C seems the best option
21:07:17 <b_jonas> so that's what I usually use
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21:39:24 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74059&oldid=74058 * X39 * (+1) /* Specification */ Fixed Typos
21:45:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how do you think, is there a better way to escape a character than x ↦ xx, xx ↦ xxx, xxx ↦ xxxx?
21:47:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that would be ugly, how would you put a different escape starting with x after that?
21:48:22 <arseniiv> xxxxxd?
21:48:31 <arseniiv> ah
21:48:34 <b_jonas> but how do you distinguish wh...
21:49:57 <arseniiv> hm it seems a while ago I ended up with a way both unambiguously parsable and resembling this one
21:50:04 <b_jonas> ideally K&R should have said something like \m is an escape for a backslash, and then everyone copies that together with \n and \t, and perl's and php's quoting functions would turn a backslash to that
21:50:45 <b_jonas> and then \mm is a two-level escape of a backslash, while \m\m is an escape for two backslashes, \mn is a double escape for a newline etc
21:51:25 <arseniiv> ah, yeah, \ \m \mm \mmm is the way I think that was
21:53:19 <arseniiv> what would you suggest for the case of paired characters? Like, in C# and newer Python3 there are `{` and `}` in format strings, which escape as `{{` and `}}`. This explodes as well as `\\`
21:54:03 <b_jonas> in some dump files that I both write and read, I use an escape format where "\x10" is an escape character, to unescape remove it and xor the next byte with 0x20, so a line feed is escaped by "\x10J" and the character itself is escaped as "\x10P", and I use "\x1F" as the string delimiter and if that one came up in a string that would be escaped as "\x10_" too
21:54:43 <b_jonas> for something like C/perl/php/sql source code I wouldn't recommend this, you want them to be printable ascii rather than control characters
21:55:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how do you read those files though?
21:55:55 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I hate python's format string syntax in first place, for reasons unrelated to that escape syntax, but luckily python also offers a more traditional format mechanism with a format syntax like C's printf, so that's what I always use
21:56:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what do you mean how I read them? I either read them with perl or python scripts where I have a function that does the unescaping, and they're easier to read than CSVs because I can read them line by line and a line break always means the end of the record with no mucking about with escaped line breaks,
21:57:03 <arseniiv> I advocated (and I think I still do) US, RS, GS and FS as a CSV replacement but unfortunately they aren’t printable either, though many editors would print them good, but the other issue people wouldn’t be able to input them well
21:57:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, I see
21:57:45 <b_jonas> or by eyeballing at them in a text editor, which displays control characters in some fancy way, and again it's easy because then there are no escaped line breaks, so every record is a single line
21:58:13 <b_jonas> I also work with CSVs, because I interface with existing programs that read and write them, and quoting line breaks is more ugly there
21:58:28 <arseniiv> US, RS, GS and FS => I need to add them to my AHK script, for some reason they aren’t there—at least to test various text editors
21:59:04 <arseniiv> yeah, escaped line breaks aren’t good for the eyes
21:59:15 <b_jonas> have you ever tried to implement a CSV reader and writer that handles quoted line breaks, quoted field separators, and quoted double quotes, correctly in all corner cases, including detecting malformed input and including accepting either "\n" or "\r\n" as the field separator but preserving the distinction between them inside quoted strings?
21:59:29 <b_jonas> I have written such a csv reader and writer, and I believe it's correct now, but it's UGLY AS HELL
21:59:37 <b_jonas> I hate whoever invented these quoting standards
21:59:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: including detecting malformed input => hopefully I won’t need to do that!
22:01:29 <arseniiv> okay I suggest using `{|` and `|}` as escapes for `{` and `}` for example. Is it good?
22:01:31 <b_jonas> whereas the reader and writer for my dump format is trivial, so trivial that I implemented a writer even in VBA, which is such a horrible language that I choose dump everything and then process them in external code rather than try to implement anything nontrivial in VBA directly. I could similarly easily write a reader for this format in VBA, though I haven't done yet, and it would be trivial, at least 
22:01:37 <b_jonas> the parsing and unescaping parts would be trivial.
22:02:02 <b_jonas> arseniiv: again, no clue, because I hate braced format strings in first place
22:02:48 <arseniiv> VBA is horrible, I agree as someone who wrote in it and in VB6 for some time when there was no internet access and prior to finding a CD with Delphi
22:03:20 <arseniiv> b_jonas: let’s pretend they aren’t for format strings
22:03:51 <arseniiv> though I won’t name another application from the top of the head
22:03:52 <b_jonas> though I haven't tried to use the foreign call interface of VBA yet, but maybe I should, linking a DLL and calling my own C functions might work better than dumping to a file in some cases
22:04:05 <b_jonas> I should definitely experiment with how easy or difficult that is
22:04:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no clue then, I can't really tell how you should escape something unless there's an actualy application that I can imagine
22:05:09 <b_jonas> meanwhile, I managed to cause a rules debate in the M:tG 3-card blind thread
22:05:11 <arseniiv> I think FFI declarations were more or less good but I didn’t write them those times, only marveled at someone’s registry access code from wherever
22:05:37 <arseniiv> VBA should interoperate well with COM+! (I’ll show myself out)
22:05:55 <b_jonas> I submitted a deck based on a judgement I received in a private message from the then GM in the previous thread, and the players somehow don't want to use that, despite that in general we use most of the rules from that thread. 
22:06:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, if I was a windows programmer then I wouldn't even try to use VBA, just call the VBA interface of this application through some COM or whatever interface that is from a non-VBA program
22:06:54 <b_jonas> a C++ or C# program or something
22:07:13 <b_jonas> I know there's such an interface, but given that I'm not a windows program and don't want to become one, I have never learned how that thing works
22:07:47 <arseniiv> maybe C# would be better these times though I didn’t try, I avoid
22:08:16 <arseniiv> I mean I did try C# and wrote much in it but didn’t try connections of this sort
22:08:30 <b_jonas> it's still not ideal, because the application interface has a few functions that you can access from the UI and I really want to access them from VBA but there's no interface yet, plus a few of the interface functions have bugs
22:08:41 <b_jonas> but still much better than the terrible UI and trying to do everything manually with it
22:10:33 <zzo38> arseniiv: I have also thought to use US, RS, GS, FS, and the SQLite command-line interface supports this format, too.
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22:11:12 <arseniiv> zzo38: neat! didn’t know, thanks
22:11:18 <zzo38> (And when doing that, I have used \x10 as an escape character, too)
22:13:13 <b_jonas> admittedly I cheat, and use a second escaping mechanism: "\x0B" is a one-byte escape for "\r\n", because that's by far the most common thing I have to escape
22:13:40 <b_jonas> but this doesn't change the properties of the format much, it's still very easy to write and read
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22:15:23 <arseniiv> interestingly, I see AHK pastes US and RS in full but stumbles on GS and FS for some reason
22:31:22 <arseniiv> if anyone’s interested how to add them to AHK, I found a simple and working way: send things like `{U+001c}` (this for FS)
22:35:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74060 * 20kdc * (+284) Note a possible spec flaw.
22:36:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what is "AHK"?
22:42:07 <arseniiv> b_jonas: AutoHotkey, a Windows automation tool which allows to define hotkey actions and send strings (aside other things). I use it with a large script to send almost all the unicode characters I post here and elsewhere, by typing LaTeX-like sequences (which wasn’t a good move but now I have what I have), like \rd␣ will send ⌟
22:42:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok
22:42:59 <arseniiv> 12345 wow I accidentally used IRC formatting
22:43:11 <arseniiv> hm hm
22:43:45 <arseniiv> evidently FS…US are used for formatting here too. I thought that would be some other unprintable characters
22:44:25 <b_jonas> GG ohdeerK
22:44:52 <b_jonas> wrong channel
23:10:27 <arseniiv> rewritten the data model for cpressey’s Tandem almost two times now, it’s time to sleep…
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23:46:07 <b_jonas> and... I accidentally spawned a small debate about US customary units :(

2020-06-20:

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00:31:03 <t20kdc> TIL it's possible to make an x86 Linux brainfuck compiler via the same "add this header, replace character X with string Y, add this footer" methodology as for some other esoteric languages
00:32:21 <b_jonas> t20kdc: well of course. if you allow footers, you can make a "compiler" (that embeds an interpreter) for a lot of things.
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00:32:38 <t20kdc> b_jonas: not even embedding an interpreter, though
00:33:03 <t20kdc> b_jonas: actual compiler, albeit with slightly odd loop handling
00:33:36 <b_jonas> sure, in this case you can do that too
00:33:43 <b_jonas> though you would have to add an upper limit to the code size
00:33:48 <b_jonas> but it can be a large upper limit
00:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, although presumably it is not optimal, I think
00:41:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74061&oldid=73263 * Emerald * (+175) /* Minimization */ new section
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02:48:07 <t20kdc> well, I now have a pet brainfuck-compiler-written-in-brainfuck, though it's not very fast
02:48:47 <t20kdc> (and by 'pet' I mean 'cute and not very useful', not the device type. target: i386 Linux ELF.)
02:49:40 <t20kdc> it basically amounts to appending a bunch of premade fragments together, so...
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02:50:30 <b_jonas> t20kdc: nice. how much does it optimize?
02:50:45 <t20kdc> b_jonas: literally not at all. 1:1 conversion from instructions to fragments.
02:51:11 <b_jonas> ok
02:51:14 <b_jonas> still, nice
02:55:08 <t20kdc> b_jonas: https://20kdc.duckdns.org/bootstrap.c is basically the outline of the compiler, https://20kdc.duckdns.org/kbfc.b is the actual thing, https://20kdc.duckdns.org/kbfc.h is part of the source
02:55:37 <t20kdc> it's 4AM, so... night
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02:59:30 <zzo38> Is there a brainfuck compiler to target Glulx? The ordinary Glk output stream should work as long as the output of the program is using ISO-8859-1 character set, with no control codes other than line feed. But, to see what optimizations are possible to store stuff in local and global variables, and other stuff like that. The rest is easily enough; you can optimize multiple + or - signs, or such things like [-] easily enough.
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03:38:02 <b_jonas> darn it, the n key on my keyboard is misbehaving
03:38:12 <b_jonas> I hope it's just a temporary thing
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04:36:01 <zzo38> Does any emulator (that emulates NES/Famicom, Gameboy, etc) have an option to draw on the screen to cover up part of the display to make the game more difficult?
04:43:24 <Arcorann> Any emulator that supports Lua, I guess
04:45:41 <Arcorann> Was there a particular game you had in mind?
04:47:28 <zzo38> Pokemon de Panepon; even if the V-HARD mode is too easy. Why is there no X-HARD mode?
04:53:33 <zzo38> (I do know that there is a hidden mode to increase the maximum speed, and I have activated that. I don't know why that is hidden, though.)
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04:56:44 <zzo38> (The other possibility would be to give opponent more hit points; do you know how to do that in this game?)
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04:58:07 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74062&oldid=73981 * Bigyihsuan * (-53) version 1.3.0
05:09:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74063&oldid=74047 * NooneAtAll * (+24) /* GORBITSA Program Format */
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05:54:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Dion *  New user account
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05:58:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74064&oldid=74056 * Dion * (+133) 
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06:00:29 <ais523> "<ais523> sadly Jelly's escaping syntax blows up exponentially" => that's sad ← nowadays I normally make it a goal of mine to have nestable string literal syntax when I design languages that benefit from string literals
06:01:12 <ais523> the crazy thing is that Jelly actually uses “” quotes to delimit strings, but the delimiters have special meanings when they appear inside a string so they can't be nested in the usual way
06:08:39 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm... maybe I should reconsider the esoteric syntax that I was planning to use for the shortcut syntax for printing literal strings in Consumer Society (for debug purposes, interpreters aren't required to print the string, they're only required to recognize the syntax and be able to skip over the string)
06:09:15 <b_jonas> it blows up exponentially if you try to make a Consumer Society program that prints a Consumer Society program that prints etc
06:09:32 <ais523> <arseniiv> b_jonas: how do you think, is there a better way to escape a character than x ↦ xx, xx ↦ xxx, xxx ↦ xxxx ← this doesn't work for the string delimeter, at least not at the end of the string, unless you have some sort of C-like string concatenation rule in the parser
06:09:37 <b_jonas> admittedly in that case you could just use ordinary programming to compress the exponential sequence
06:09:44 <ais523> because when you see "a""" you don't know whether you're still inside the string or not
06:10:29 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I told him and he already admitted that
06:10:42 <ais523> ah right
06:10:51 <ais523> that's what I get for not reading the whole scrollback before commenting
06:11:31 <shachaf> Are there logic languages that are more like SAT than like Prolog? What would they be like?
06:11:35 <b_jonas> yeah, I do that all the time too
06:11:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, SAT solvers
06:12:13 <ais523> hmm, in C, can't you get linear-growth repeated escaping by using trigraphs?
06:12:32 <shachaf> What I mean is that the execution strategy is more like SAT, which is very different from Prolog.
06:12:35 <b_jonas> ais523: you can get linear growth with just "\x5C"
06:12:39 <b_jonas> and I usually write "\x5C"
06:12:51 <shachaf> I mean, like SAT solvers. But the actual language is more usable.
06:13:05 <ais523> \ escapes to ?\?/ escapes to ??\?/?/ escapes to ???\?/?/?/ and so on
06:13:13 <ais523> but \x5C is possibly clearer?
06:13:21 <ais523> I guess neither is particularly readable
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06:13:41 <ais523> SMT2 appears to be a fairly featureful language
06:13:42 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that the easily available escaping function like perl's quotemeta or whatever that thing is in php uses the syntax that blows up exponentially, and that's the function you'll use in a golf language
06:13:46 <ais523> you can use it in a non-SAT-solving way
06:13:53 <ais523> the syntax is a little ridiculous but not /too/ ridiculous
06:14:09 <b_jonas> in a turing-complete language, you always have some way to avoid the exponential blowup
06:14:21 <b_jonas> I actually use "\x5C" most of the time to represent a backslash in my programs
06:14:30 <b_jonas> I hate "\\"
06:14:56 <ais523> \x5C is a little less portable-in-theory than ?\?/, isn't it?
06:15:03 <b_jonas> but I only started this a few years ago, and there are some pragmagic reasons for it like windows cmd syntax
06:15:04 <ais523> because there's no guarantee that 5C = backslash
06:15:13 <ais523> although, many recent compilers don't implement trigraphs by default
06:15:23 <ais523> also, I haven't seen "pragmagic" before but I like it
06:15:25 <b_jonas> ais523: but \x5C is much more portable to things that aren't C with trigraphs (or C++ with trigraph)
06:15:33 <b_jonas> uh, that was a typo
06:15:40 <b_jonas> I wanted to say pragmatic
06:15:48 <ais523> \u005C may be more portable to non-C things
06:16:04 <ais523> b_jonas: I thought it was a parallel with "automagic" and was trying to figure out the meaning
06:16:20 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but it doesn't work in C or perl or ... let me test bash, I don't know what it implements these days
06:16:35 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'u\x5Cv\u005Cw'
06:16:37 <HackEso> u\v\w
06:16:43 <b_jonas> hmm, it does work in bash
06:16:44 <ais523> I guess "automagic" means "it just works in this context because we put effort into making sure it would work", so "pragmagic" would mean "I do this because it just works in a range of contexts, even without the contexts trying to make it work"
06:16:51 <b_jonas> ok, then it only doesn't work in perl
06:17:01 <ais523> `` perl -E 'say "\u005C"'
06:17:03 <HackEso> 005C
06:17:08 <ais523> `` perl -E 'say "\u{005C}"'
06:17:09 <HackEso> ​{005C}
06:17:17 <ais523> `` perl -E 'say "\x{005C}"'
06:17:18 <HackEso> ​\
06:17:19 <b_jonas> ais523: perl's syntax is \x{005C} or \x{5C}
06:17:21 <ais523> right
06:17:30 <ais523> I knew it had a syntax for that, just took me a moment to remember it
06:17:48 <ais523> I think the "consensus" escaping format is that \u takes four hex digits and \U takes eight
06:17:52 <b_jonas> but in python, it's \x5C or \u005C , either are the same
06:17:52 <ais523> although \U is less widely implemented
06:18:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it spread from Java
06:18:07 <ais523> and in a way, the first two of those eight digits are pointless
06:18:12 <b_jonas> Java is influential
06:18:23 <ais523> I'm not sure Java supports \U, I thought you were supposed to \u out a surrogate pair
06:18:33 <ais523> but I admit it's never come up
06:18:39 <b_jonas> ais523: the first two of those eight digits is future compatibility for when unicode decides to grow its code space again
06:18:59 <Arcorann> I wonder how long it'll take before Unicode doesn't have enough codepoints
06:19:14 <b_jonas> and yes, I know that that's hard because UTF-16 is designed around the current limit
06:19:44 <ais523> UTF-16 is dying out in non-Microsoft contexts
06:19:47 <ais523> albeit slowly
06:20:05 <Arcorann> I seem to remember there being an era when there was a Private Use Area in the eight-hex-digit region
06:20:07 <ais523> oh, and Funciton, but I doubt the Unicode Consortium cares much about that
06:20:22 <ais523> isn't there an entire astral plane that's private use?
06:20:22 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe SMT2 is an answer, though I kind of doubt you'd want to do programming in it.
06:20:34 <shachaf> Maybe the answer is a regular old language that generates SMT instances.
06:20:37 <ais523> shachaf: I think I tried once, although I also think I changed my mind pretty quickly
06:20:49 <shachaf> I need to learn how SMT solvers work.
06:21:02 <shachaf> I have a vague idea of how DPLL(T) works now but there a lot of other things going on.
06:21:16 <ais523> you mean internally, or from the user's point of view?
06:21:22 <ais523> I get the impression that there's quite a range of different internal algorithms
06:21:52 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but does that help? microsoft isn't dying out, and I'm using utf16 because some windows program (which has some half-assed unicode support, though I can't understand why because apparently people in china just use illegal copies without paying the license) only accepts utf16-le as input
06:22:06 <shachaf> I mean internally.
06:22:22 <shachaf> Do you mean a range of theories or a range of implementation strategies for the non-theory part of the solver?
06:22:25 <Arcorann> I briefly wondered once if someone would invent a conlang that uses a script with exactly 65537 invented characters, just so that it can't fit in the Plane 15 PUA
06:22:43 <shachaf> I know there's DPLL(T), and something called MCSAT which is different, but I thought the general idea didn't vary that much.
06:23:12 <b_jonas> Arcorann: I think that plane only has 65534 usable code points, but there's a second smaller private use area so I don't think 65537 is enough
06:23:36 <Arcorann> I ended up checking and found that plane 16 is also a PUA
06:23:45 <ais523> there's a small PUA in the BMP, too
06:24:04 <b_jonas> oh, there are two planes?
06:24:24 <b_jonas> I thought it was one plane plus a small one in the material plane
06:24:38 <ais523> shachaf: both the SMT solvers I've used appear not to care much about which theory is selected, for those solvers the theory selection has a syntactic effect on what programs you can write
06:24:48 <ais523> but the internal algorithms look at what you actually wrote, not the theory you selected
06:25:03 <shachaf> Which sorts of theories did you use?
06:25:08 <shachaf> (And which solvers?)
06:25:49 <ais523> I started using z3 because it was the best-known, and moved onto Yices because it was much faster on the programs i was writing
06:26:24 <Arcorann> I looked up the PUAs in no-longer-valid regions, they were 0xE00000 to 0xFFFFFF and 0x60000000 to 0x7FFFFFFF
06:26:30 <ais523> I experimented with a range of theories, mostly involving arithmetic on fixed-bitwidth integers plus something vaguely array-like
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06:27:39 <b_jonas> Arcorann: nice. is there an infinite set of private use codepoints if you allow more than 32 bits?
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06:28:19 <ais523> come to think of it, it's actually fairly easy to extend UTF-16 to more than 21 bits
06:28:32 <ais523> just write two or more high surrogates followed by a low surrogate
06:29:04 <b_jonas> ais523: that would lose some of the nice properties, eg. now you could have a false match if you tried to do a substring search codepoint-wise
06:29:13 <ais523> this has no clashes with existing UTF-16; I think it sorts correctly too
06:29:16 <b_jonas> but a more tricky scheme that keeps this is possible
06:29:31 <Arcorann> http://www.open-std.org/CEN/TC304/guidecharactersets/guideannexb.html <-- original description of UCS
06:29:37 <ais523> I agree that it has substring match issues, although there's a simple test to see if they occurred
06:29:43 <b_jonas> but utf-8 extends much more easily
06:30:08 <shachaf> I've been reading some of the Yices code.
06:30:10 <shachaf> It's great.
06:30:31 <ais523> b_jonas: isn't there a limit to how far UTF-8 extends while keeping the nice properties?
06:30:42 <shachaf> Isn't the existing UTF-16 self-synchronizing in a way that this extension isn't?
06:30:52 <ais523> using FE as an initial byte works fine, using FF is problematic if you want to be able to extend it
06:30:54 <b_jonas> ais523: no
06:31:01 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74065 * Dion * (+1179) Created page with "'''MAWP''' is a stack-based [[esoteric programming language]] that was made in 2020.    ==Language Overview== '''MAWP''' works on an integer stack, starting with an initial va..."
06:31:03 <b_jonas> ais523: at least not the nice properties that I care about
06:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: it breaks the property that the first byte tells you how long the representation is, but you can't keep that forever
06:31:33 <b_jonas> it still keeps all the substring and sorting properties
06:31:40 <ais523> b_jonas: what about the property that no character is a substring of any other character?
06:32:22 <ais523> once you reach FF as a prefix, what's new about the second byte that makes it distinguishable from the first byte of some other character?
06:33:06 <ais523> you've already used up your entire stock of distinguished bytes
06:33:22 <b_jonas> ais523: that property is still kept
06:33:27 <ais523> how?
06:33:36 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, I have this written up somewhere I think
06:34:28 <b_jonas> darn, I may have deleted it
06:35:28 <Arcorann> I once pondered defining more surrogates in one of the higher planes, so that six bytes would be used above plane 16
06:35:39 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74066&oldid=74065 * Dion * (+371) 
06:35:41 <b_jonas> Arcorann: yes, that would probably be the sanest solution
06:35:43 <shachaf> Also, a lot of SMT solvers support quantifiers?
06:35:51 <ais523> shachaf: with limits, yes
06:35:58 <shachaf> I read some things about that but I'm still not really sure how it works.
06:36:05 <ais523> they're incredibly useful, but also hard to implement efficiently
06:36:19 <ais523> so there are normally restrictions on them based on what the internal algorithm supports
06:37:24 <Arcorann> Though thinking about it again that solution would actually be twelve bytes (six BMP surrogates to express three high plane surrogates to express one 31-bit codepoint)
06:38:23 <ais523> can't you just use an astral surrogate followed by two "ordinary" low surrogates?
06:38:29 <ais523> UTF-8-style
06:38:43 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, the encoding above asiic, basically works like this. take the binary form of your codepoint, pad it so the length is 11 plus a multiple of 5 bits. prepend a 0 bit and then prepend a 1 bit for each group of 5 bits that it's longer than 11 bits. then break the resulting bit string to 6 bit chunks (since the above guarantees the length is a multiple of six bits), prepend 11 to the first one 
06:38:49 <b_jonas> and 10 to the rest of them
06:39:14 <b_jonas> ais523: you can see how to undo this procedure: strip the first two bits of each byte, and you get a unary encoding of the length, then a 0 bit, then the bits of the code point
06:39:37 <rain1> hi!
06:39:39 <b_jonas> you have to be careful with endianness and rejecting overlong encodings of course
06:39:50 <ais523> rain1: hi
06:39:54 <b_jonas> but the unary encoding of the length ensures that the substring property is kept
06:40:05 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I see, the continuation bytes of the length start 10
06:40:16 <b_jonas> there's nothing really special about FD or FE or FF
06:40:37 <b_jonas> ais523: well, they would, but not many 
06:40:53 <b_jonas> not much software actually supports this. perl does, I think, but only up to 2**64
06:41:17 <b_jonas> most software just rejects anything over 2**31 or anything over 0x10FFFF
06:41:25 <b_jonas> which is fine for non-esoteric applications of course
06:41:30 <ais523> b_jonas: I was trying to determine how you distinguished a length continuation byte from a starting byte
06:41:36 <ais523> I didn't think of encoding the length within continuation bytes
06:41:38 <b_jonas> as long as you don't mess it up in a way that leads to security vulnerabilities
06:41:43 <ais523> like, ordinary continuation bytes
06:42:20 <ais523> also, "0x10FFFF" is such a boring way to say it, why not write out 1114111? it's much prettier-looking and shorter
06:42:38 <shachaf> But it hides the structure of the number.
06:43:41 <ais523> 17×2¹⁶-1 is the same length and more descriptive structurally
06:43:56 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, the first byte that's neither FF nor BF determines the length if your input is valid
06:44:39 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74067&oldid=74066 * Dion * (+2502) 
06:45:10 <b_jonas> ais523: because I once spent hours debugging a segfault from writing 8096 instead of 8196, and from that point on I'm careful to use hexadecimal numerals for numbers like this, because computers make fewer mistakes than I do
06:45:20 <Arcorann> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#History
06:45:36 <b_jonas> hexadecimal numerals or relying on constant folding
06:45:42 <ais523> 2¹³ is 8192, although you might of course have wanted 2¹³+4
06:45:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74068&oldid=74052 * Dion * (+11) 
06:46:23 <ais523> it does seem helpful to memorize constants like 65536 or 4294967296 or 1103515245, though
06:46:30 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what exact number I wanted, it's for the ioctl to load VGA text mode font
06:46:39 <b_jonas> memorizing them to recognize them, sure
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06:46:49 <b_jonas> but I don't want to write them
06:46:55 <shachaf> I think (16+1)¹⁶-1 is even more descriptive.
06:47:02 <b_jonas> admittedly I just wrote 65534 above, so I do sometimes write them
06:47:08 <ais523> I don't have 2⁶⁴ memorised
06:47:11 <shachaf> Perhaps (2^4+1)^16-1, or even (2^4+1)^(2^4)-1
06:47:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: um, but it's neither
06:47:40 <ais523> 16 wasn't chosen due to being 2⁴, though
06:47:42 <shachaf> Er, so it isn't.
06:47:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's 17*2**16-O(1)
06:48:03 <shachaf> The number I wrote is obviously wrong.
06:48:17 <shachaf> 16 wasn't chosen due to being 2⁴ but it was surely chosen due to being a power of 2.
06:49:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm, that's a good question, how much of an accident it is that the 8-bit bytes that won out over 9-bit and 6-bit bytes uses 8 which is a power of 2?
06:49:30 <b_jonas> it's certainly convenient for some things, but I don't know if it could have historically been different
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06:50:07 <b_jonas> could we have ended up in an alternate univerese where everything is 9 bits or 18 bits or 36 bits or 72 bits long?
06:50:34 <ais523> in fact, the extra 16 planes don't have anything to do with the number 16, the number of planes was chosen so that there would be (2¹⁰×2¹⁰) bytes in them, 16 just happens to 2²⁰÷2¹⁶
06:50:34 <b_jonas> or where everything is 6 bits or 12 bits or 24 bits or 48 bits or 96 bits long?
06:50:46 <ais523> that's a power of two because it's the ratio between two powers of 2
06:51:29 <ais523> nine-bit bytes were used seriously for quite a while
06:51:37 <b_jonas> yes, and so were 12-bit words
06:51:53 <ais523> I've worked on a computer that used 14-bit words in ROM (but 8-bit bytes in RAM)
06:52:10 <b_jonas> that's why I mentioned those specific numbers, not 7-bit bytes (which were mostly used in communication, not in computations), or trits (which were used in some experimental computers
06:52:14 <b_jonas> )
06:52:28 <b_jonas> ais523: oh yeah, microcontrollers sometimes do that thing
06:52:55 <ais523> I think 14 was chosen because it's a good size for fixed-width instructions on a microcontroller, and it also lets you store strings in ROM two-per-character (assuming ASCII)
06:53:12 <ais523> err, two-characters-per-word
06:53:38 <b_jonas> yeah, something like that. but if those things spread, we'd still end up having quantities that are power of two bit sized.
06:54:14 <b_jonas> it's the multiples of 9 bit and multiples of 6 bits that were used as word sizes that I'm mostly concerned about, though admittedly I don't know too much about retrocomputing
06:54:47 <ais523> right, the most relevant non-power-of-two number I see is 59049, and that's only because it's used by both TriINTERCAL and Malbolge as the number of possible 10-trit values
06:55:28 <ais523> 3¹⁰ seems to have been chosen as the standard size of a ternary word in esoprogramming so that it can be simulated using a binary computer with 16-bit words
06:55:38 <b_jonas> yeah, but those are both made as deliberately esoteric choices
06:55:51 <ais523> TriINTERCAL also supports a 3²⁰-bit word; I think the Malbolge version that does that is called Malbolge-20
06:56:01 <b_jonas> they use base 3 because non-eso doesn't use base 3
06:56:02 <ais523> which should really be properly specified this year, for the naming pun
06:56:34 <b_jonas> ais523: you have to talk to kspalaiologos for that one
06:56:49 <ais523> oh, it's on Esolang already
06:56:59 <ais523> dating from 2017
06:57:10 <b_jonas> but I fear it'll faill into that limbo like the befunge extensions that technically exist but people don't use it
06:57:46 <ais523> kspalaiologos uses it
06:57:53 <b_jonas> oh wow
06:58:03 <b_jonas> nice
06:58:13 <ais523> I can't get at the spec, though, because the domain is using a security certificate from a different domain
06:58:16 <ais523> let me try the web archive
06:58:35 <b_jonas> you can't get at the spec? is this a good time to ask if the C-intercal docs are still unreachable?
06:59:11 <ais523> they're reachable in a convoluted way, because the source repository from them is online somewhere
06:59:14 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74069&oldid=74067 * Dion * (+14) 
06:59:38 <b_jonas> ok
07:00:29 <b_jonas> if you find that, please put a link to the article on esolangs.org
07:00:55 <b_jonas> not that I plan to do anything interesting with intercal
07:01:05 <b_jonas> I'm more interested about your less esoteric projects
07:02:06 <b_jonas> (I guess that's obvious, I asked about ayacc and nethack4 and scapegoat and that balanced tree library)
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07:03:09 <esowiki> [[C-INTERCAL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74070&oldid=65534 * Ais523 * (+263) /* External resources */ link my mirror
07:03:42 <b_jonas> thanks
07:09:21 <ais523> I started mirroring it when all the other repos disappeared
07:09:25 <ais523> but forgot to tell anyone
07:09:39 <ais523> it's the only place I commit to nowadays, because there isn't anywhere else to commit to
07:11:14 <b_jonas> I see
07:11:34 <b_jonas> the tree library doesn't exist yet, right?
07:11:47 <b_jonas> you'd probably have told me if it existed
07:11:57 <ais523> I haven't worked on it for ages
07:12:08 <b_jonas> ok
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07:25:22 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74071&oldid=73993 * DmilkaSTD * (+12) 'for' plans
07:26:30 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74072&oldid=74071 * DmilkaSTD * (+24) This will be hard to maintain...
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07:32:17 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74073&oldid=74072 * DmilkaSTD * (+31) literally i dont want to make the compileeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer :(
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08:16:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Georgelam6 *  New user account
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08:57:48 <shachaf> On this SAT instance (pigeon-hole/hole10.cnf), my SAT solver takes 1.5s, and minisat takes 92.5s (by default) and 8s (when I disable restarts).
09:17:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74074&oldid=74063 * Ais523 * (-23) fix talk page formatting
09:18:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74075&oldid=74074 * Ais523 * (-1) double rv; actually, the formatting was correct in the first place
09:33:34 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74076&oldid=74073 * DmilkaSTD * (+74) this will be so hard to maintain... ... ...
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09:57:22 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74077&oldid=74059 * Geek Joystick * (-13) /* Implementations */
09:57:45 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74078&oldid=74077 * Geek Joystick * (+13) /* Implementations */
10:23:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74079&oldid=74064 * Ais523 * (+60) looks like cloud-to-butt is messing up some people's attempt to introduce themselves; it's probably good that that is prohibited, but we should give a clue as to what's going on
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10:51:33 <arseniiv> what’s good about myopia is that you can be absolutely sure no part of your brain read a spoiler if you moved back from the screen quickly enough
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12:35:10 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74080&oldid=74069 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+617) /* Computational class */ comp class + cats
12:35:49 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74081&oldid=74080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Language Overview */ remove -> pop
12:52:18 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74082&oldid=73856 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Commands */
12:52:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74083&oldid=74061 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+197) /* Minimization */
12:54:45 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74084&oldid=74082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Commands */
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12:58:40 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74085&oldid=68174 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) CATS
13:03:36 <esowiki> [[Jumpmin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3341) Minimalization of Jumplang
13:03:55 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74087&oldid=74084 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) /* Examples */ rm duplicat
13:06:20 <esowiki> [[Jumpmin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74088&oldid=74086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+302) /* Further development */
13:06:40 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74089&oldid=74087 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-308) /* Minimization */
13:07:09 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74090&oldid=74089 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) /* See also */
13:07:38 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74091&oldid=74068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* J */ + [[Jumpmin]]
13:08:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74092&oldid=73952 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) /* Languages */
13:09:09 <esowiki> [[Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74093&oldid=73949 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Special variables */
13:09:39 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74094 * Osmarks * (+149) Created page with "{{Deletedpage}} {{PageWIP}} {{Wrongtitle}} {{User:Sinthorion}} {{Spoiler|{{Programming Language}}}} {{:Joke language list}} {{Special:RecentChanges}}"
13:10:23 <esowiki> [[Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74095&oldid=74093 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) /* Expressions */
13:12:22 <esowiki> [[Visify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74096&oldid=73828 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) /* Syntax */ Comments
13:13:31 <esowiki> [[Visify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74097&oldid=74096 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) /* Arguments */ how did I forget $x and $y?
13:14:53 <esowiki> [[Test]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74098 * Osmarks * (+0) Osmarks created the page [[Test]] using a non-default content model "JavaScript": Testing
13:14:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] new  * Osmarks *  Osmarks created the page [[Test]] using a non-default content model "JavaScript": Testing
13:15:10 <esowiki> [[Test]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74099&oldid=74098 * Osmarks * (+30) 
13:16:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Osmarks *  moved [[Test]] to [[JS content model test]]
13:19:27 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74102&oldid=74078 * ZippyMagician * (-47) Memory starts at 0
13:28:37 <Arcorann> https://everything2.com/title/The%2520Teach%2520Yourself%2520to%2520be%2520a%2520Dummy%2520in%252024%2520Hours%2520Bible <-- I wonder if it's possible to invent a language where this is actually valid code
13:30:11 <myname> now i want that book
13:51:11 <b_jonas> I don't need it now, I'm just curious, does anyone have a backup of the database of New inverse symbolic calculator (ISC, Plouffe's inverter, real number search) "https://isc.carma.newcastle.edu.au/" ?
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14:16:17 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74103&oldid=74102 * Geek Joystick * (+200) /* Programs */
14:16:31 <esowiki> [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck derivatives]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74104 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2459) Created page with "'''All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck derivatives''' is a family of [[esoteric programming language]]s and [[esoteric subset]]s first realized by User:PythonshellDe..."
14:17:33 <esowiki> [[Category:Esoteric subset]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74105&oldid=43253 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
14:22:11 <esowiki> [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck derivatives]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74106&oldid=74104 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) 
14:22:42 <esowiki> [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck derivatives]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74107&oldid=74106 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Subset details */
14:23:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck derivatives]] to [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck equivalents]]
14:23:23 <esowiki> [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck equivalents]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74110&oldid=74108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
14:24:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74111&oldid=74092 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) /* Languages */
14:25:35 <esowiki> [[Int**]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74112&oldid=72742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) 
14:26:20 <esowiki> [[Int**]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74113&oldid=74112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Interpreters */ How can this be Uncomputable ''and'' Implemented?
14:32:49 <rain1> 0.44721359549995793928183473374625524709 what number is htis?
14:34:34 <fizzie> `` echo '1/sqrt(5)' | bc -l
14:34:35 <HackEso> ​.44721359549995793928
14:38:55 <fizzie> `` dc -e '40k 1 5v/n'  # I keep thinking I should use dc over bc more, but I keep forgetting how
14:38:56 <HackEso> ​.4472135954999579392818347337462552470881
14:41:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74114&oldid=70723 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) cats
14:43:24 <esowiki> [[Unibrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74115&oldid=43341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Related Languages */ ''cat?''
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15:21:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * 7n7o *  New user account
15:25:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74116&oldid=74079 * 7n7o * (+160) /* Introductions */
15:27:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Dominic Zdan *  New user account
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15:33:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74117&oldid=74116 * Dominic Zdan * (+112) /* Introductions */
15:35:41 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74118&oldid=73468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) 
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15:37:07 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74119&oldid=74062 * Bigyihsuan * (+107) /* Plosives: Stack Operations */
15:37:18 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74120&oldid=74119 * Bigyihsuan * (+0) /* Plosives: Stack Operations */
16:01:10 <esowiki> [[JS content model test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74121&oldid=74100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) 
16:04:28 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74122&oldid=71398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) import unpipe; unpipe.unpipe("User")
16:08:20 <esowiki> [[Embedded HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74123&oldid=68894 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) joke langs == langs
16:09:09 <esowiki> [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74124&oldid=66471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) wip
16:30:51 <esowiki> [[Funciton/Quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74125&oldid=72814 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) 
16:32:02 <esowiki> [[LisL/examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74126&oldid=73786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) page->parent == nullptr
16:36:52 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74127&oldid=68190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) 
16:38:20 <esowiki> [[Minscode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74128&oldid=57111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
16:38:39 <esowiki> [[Minscode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74129&oldid=74128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Instructions */
16:38:48 <esowiki> [[Minscode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74130&oldid=74129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Instructions */
17:18:12 <esowiki> [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74131&oldid=57136 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+191) /* External Resources */ cats
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18:14:31 <esowiki> [[QUATRE-CALC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74132&oldid=35081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) cats
18:21:37 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74133&oldid=74103 * ZippyMagician * (+471) Update self-interpreter
18:26:11 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74134&oldid=74133 * ZippyMagician * (+10) /* Self Interpreter (by User:ZippyMagician) */
18:29:35 <esowiki> [[MyOwnLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74135&oldid=66742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+322) 
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19:11:49 <esowiki> [[MyOwnLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74136&oldid=74135 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) /* Interpreter in Python 3 */
19:12:38 <esowiki> [[Nairb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74137&oldid=71194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 
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19:13:31 <esowiki> [[ShadyAsFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74138&oldid=53873 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
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20:30:02 <shachaf> I have become a three-star programmer.
20:32:15 <myname> why not become a rockstar developer?
20:35:51 <adu> out of how many stars?
20:47:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74139&oldid=74120 * Bigyihsuan * (+3) /* Back Fricatives, Taps/Flaps, Trills: List and String operations */
20:51:36 <shachaf> I think any number of stars your compiler allows.
20:51:53 <shachaf> In this case I wrote some function f(int *argc, char ***argv)
20:52:10 <int-e> . o O ( is it a regular expression compiler )
20:53:57 <b_jonas> I think of it backwards. if I write a three-star variable, it's often a mistake, and I shouldn't. 
20:54:22 <b_jonas> two stars is fine, I have to use that often
20:55:32 <int-e> this is not proper software engineering
20:55:56 <int-e> any problem can be solved by an additional level of indirection, which will require an additional star ;-)
20:56:36 <int-e> Now who wants to be an omega-star programmer?
20:57:06 <zzo38> I have also used three starts sometimes, but it is rare; usually it isn't helpful, but sometimes it is.
20:58:27 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it often won't require an additional star
20:58:43 <int-e> b_jonas: you're too serious
20:58:54 <b_jonas> maybe
21:01:38 <shachaf> If you want to rapidly increase your number of stars, I recommend function pointers.
21:02:45 <int-e> moving closure to stardom
21:03:50 <shachaf> I got CDCL working (?) in my SAT solver yesterday.
21:04:07 <shachaf> I mean, I already had clause learning, but I added a really primitive form of clause deletion, so now it's actually practical.
21:04:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74140&oldid=72880 * Bigyihsuan * (+1468) 
21:06:13 <rain1> What will you use CDCL for?
21:07:47 <spruit11> What was CDCL again?
21:07:51 * spruit11 googles
21:07:56 <shachaf> Unknown.
21:08:08 <spruit11> Oh, right.
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21:08:40 <int-e> spruit11: heh, didn't you implement your own SAT solver?
21:08:46 <int-e> or am I mixing up people
21:09:28 <int-e> Unforunately I'm prone to doing that.
21:10:20 <rain1> I implemented sat solver
21:10:24 <spruit11> I did, but I don't think you mean me.
21:10:29 <spruit11> Right.
21:11:04 <shachaf> I added automatic usage message generation to my option parser: https://shachaf.net/tmp/mop/mop.h
21:11:11 <b_jonas> wow, we have a lot of people here who have implemented sat solvers
21:11:11 <int-e> rain1: I'm certain I didn't mean you.
21:11:15 <shachaf> So convenient. I'm not sure it's worth it.
21:11:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: as long as you allow the caller to override it, it's fine
21:11:40 <esowiki> [[All Turing-complete languages are brainfuck equivalents]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74141&oldid=74110 * 20kdc * (+1540) /* Example members (languages and subsets) */ well, if ... any ... substitution is valid...
21:11:41 <int-e> Nor shachaf, there was somebody else.
21:11:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: Well, the caller doesn't have to call print_usage at all.
21:12:07 <spruit11> I made a SAT solver once and then one inspired on NAND reasoning.
21:12:08 <shachaf> Or they can process the list of options themselves.
21:12:20 <spruit11> The latter was more general but slow as hell.
21:15:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74142&oldid=74140 * Bigyihsuan * (+2) /* Turing Completeness */
21:16:07 <shachaf> I used SAT solvers to come up with these puzzles: https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Benutzer/eingestellt.php?name=shachaf
21:16:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74143&oldid=74142 * Bigyihsuan * (+0) /* Turing Completeness */
21:16:48 <int-e> hmm, "eingestellt"
21:17:20 <spruit11> I still have a Sudoko solver in ML somewhere. Lemme look.
21:17:51 <shachaf> Yes, for some reason the website is in German.
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21:18:11 <spruit11> http://666-bits.blogspot.com/2008/01/yet-another-sudoku-solver.html
21:18:12 <int-e> https://en.bab.la/dictionary/german-english/einstellen
21:18:17 <rain1> Did you try this sudoku? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfps6nwPWmU
21:18:25 <rain1> I couldn't solve this
21:18:42 <int-e> rain1: I'd just throw it at my computer program if I can find it.
21:18:57 <int-e> I don't actually like sudokus.
21:19:14 <rain1> it will be solved easily by algorithms
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21:19:28 <int-e> half of the advanced deduction procedures exploit the fact that there's a unique solution, which I consider improper reasoning.
21:19:49 <spruit11> Me too. It's more fun to think about solvers than about actual Sudokus.
21:20:18 <rain1> what are your views on the assumption of uniqueness?
21:20:47 <int-e> as I said... why are you asking me to repeat myself?
21:22:33 <shachaf> Here's a Python Sudoku solver I wrote once in ~40 lines: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/old-python-solver.py
21:23:18 <shachaf>  assumed at the time that 9x9 Sudoku is just too easy for computers to bother. But it turns out even fancy SAT solvers can have trouble with them, depending on your constraints.
21:23:22 <shachaf> s/^/I/
21:23:48 <zzo38> Did you see the Sudoku solver in SQL?
21:23:51 <shachaf> For example, it took the SAT solvers I tried quite a while to show that there are no valid Sudoku instances if you don't allow digits to be on the same / or \ diagonal.
21:24:22 <rain1> damn
21:24:25 <rain1> I wrote a sudoku solver but i can't find it
21:24:55 <b_jonas> Llasnad giftsubs hype @The_Bool_aid_Man @dr_yolo_14 @oej820
21:25:17 <shachaf> I agree with b_jonas.
21:25:30 <rain1> Hell yeah
21:25:36 <b_jonas> oh worry
21:25:44 <b_jonas> I keep not looking at which channel I'm typing to
21:27:56 <int-e> shachaf: Isn't that what X-Sudokus are?
21:28:10 <shachaf> I mean every diagonal and antidiagonal, not just the main ones.
21:28:41 <int-e> Oh, wrapping around?
21:28:44 <shachaf> No wrapping.
21:28:49 <shachaf> Just shorter than 9 diagonals.
21:28:53 <int-e> Ah. Right, I see now.
21:29:00 <shachaf> So it's only "at most" constraints, not "at least".
21:29:27 <int-e> Hrm, I wonder how obvious that is.
21:31:57 <shachaf> Hmm, I should implement restarts in my solver.
21:32:14 <shachaf> Seems like an important (and easy) feature.
21:33:02 <int-e> I suppose, once you have any kind of learning and possibly variable selection heuristics...
21:33:32 <shachaf> Oh, right, I also need to implement a variable selection heuristic.
21:33:43 <shachaf> Right now I'm using a static heuristic which doesn't seem great.
21:34:04 <shachaf> That's probably even more important than restarts.
21:34:12 <shachaf> Otherwise there's no point to restarting.
21:34:18 <shachaf> I had some randomness before but I took it out.
21:52:03 <spruit11> Yah. They come together.
21:53:06 <int-e> shachaf: do SAT solvers still struggle if you pre-assign the first row to 123456789?
21:53:40 <shachaf> Good question. For a lot of my puzzles I've been trying to break this symmetry with the rules themselves, but of course the diagonal constraints don't do that.
21:53:46 <int-e> (or something similar that breaks the symmetries)
21:58:34 <int-e> My really old C++ solver takes 1.2ms if given that first row. 0.44s without symmetry breaking (a significant part of the former time is spent on initialization).
21:59:40 <int-e> But the numbers look like it's not completely obvious.
22:00:14 <int-e> "it" being the fact that no such sudokus-with-distinct-diagonal-entries exist
22:03:38 <zzo38> rain1: About assumption of uniqueness, I personally don't make that assumption unless the rules say it is unique (which I have seen in some puzzles, but not Sudoku).
22:08:29 <shachaf> int-e: Wait, now it's instant.
22:08:51 <shachaf> Hmm, it must've been somethig more complicated.
22:09:05 <shachaf> My solver is also instant.
22:09:27 <shachaf> Oh, wait.
22:11:04 <int-e> shachaf: Note that this isn't a SAT solver, it's a dedicated Sudoku solver.
22:11:13 <shachaf> Yes.
22:11:17 <int-e> But hmm, only 75 nodes? Maybe this is obvious after all.
22:11:49 <int-e> But it's hard to say; my search assigns all places for a digit at once.
22:12:14 <shachaf> I had some leftover clues I forgot about.
22:12:24 <shachaf> MiniSAT took ~40s with the symmetry breaking, I think.
22:12:48 <int-e> 5273809 nodes without symmetry breaking
22:15:34 <shachaf> It takes MiniSAT 294s without symmetyr breaking.
22:15:42 <shachaf> With symmetry breaking it's instant.
22:15:56 <int-e> hmm. decent.
22:16:12 <shachaf> By which I mean 0.5s, not really instant.
22:16:40 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74144&oldid=74134 * ZippyMagician * (-10) Fix
22:23:17 <int-e> Upon closer inspection I doubt it's obvious, that 75 number is pretty misleading :)
22:27:18 <shachaf> CaDiCaL takes 509s to show UNSAT.
22:27:31 <shachaf> And 0.045s with symmetry breaking.
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22:46:29 <shachaf> int-e: Your C++ solver sounds pretty fancy.
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23:04:10 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sudoku_solve.cc in full uncommented beauty
23:04:37 <shachaf> text/x-c++src
23:05:36 <int-e> but the gist of it is to compute bitmasks for the possible placements of the 9 occurrences of each digit, keep only those that are compatible with the hints, and then do some set covering with that.
23:06:20 <int-e> so the search depth is only 9, which is probably a large part of the reason why this is pretty fast
23:06:48 <int-e> (actually 8 because the final mask is guaranteed to fit in for free)
23:08:16 <int-e> shachaf: oh and this is the plain sudoku solver, without the hacked-on diagonal constraint.
23:08:34 <shachaf> Hmm. I wonder whether the thing this is doing could be expressed in SAT better.
23:09:36 <shachaf> At first I only expressed the "at least one of each digit" constraints, without "at most one", and it was pretty slow.
23:15:30 <int-e> I'd habitually add the naive C(n,2) disjunctions for the at-most-one constraint.
23:15:51 <shachaf> Yes.
23:16:05 <shachaf> Though I had an instance that my solver was slow on with either at-most or at-least, but fast with both.
23:16:09 <int-e> Even though I know it's easy to express with fewer clauses if you're not afraid of extra variables.
23:16:25 <shachaf> (Now that I have CDCL it's fast either way.)
23:16:36 <shachaf> I haven't been adding any extra variables so far.
23:17:00 <int-e> some poeple have the attitude that CDCL is better than this than people, learning the *right* clauses of that type.
23:17:23 <shachaf> I suspect people are still much better at symmetry breaking.
23:18:05 <shachaf> I've been doing model counting so I'd need to be careful with the extra variables. Maybe if there was a way to tag variables as "extra" so the solver doesn't count solutions with only extra variable changed.
23:18:16 <int-e> Oh I think that too... espcially when the symmetries are a form of domain-specific knowledge.
23:18:17 <shachaf> I feel like I should be using a format other than CNF.
23:18:42 <shachaf> Maybe a format where I can give variables names, so I can read them in the solver's debug output.
23:18:57 <shachaf> Er, by other than CNF I meant other than DIMACS.
23:19:04 <shachaf> (Right now my variable names are off-by-1 from the DIMACS variable names which is really annoying.)
23:19:50 <esowiki> [[Intcode/Interpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74145&oldid=68356 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) 
23:20:28 <int-e> Funny. There's a format with weighted clauses for Max-SAT.
23:21:07 <int-e> dimacs-based but using 'wcnf' instead of 'cnf' in the 'p' line.
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23:27:20 <shachaf> The trouble is that I'm using other SAT solvers so I need to support DIMACS anyway.
23:27:37 <shachaf> So I just work around it with tools to pre- and post-process the datums I have.
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23:34:11 <int-e> shachaf: well you could have a dimacs variant that has an extra line specifying the weights for the variables?
23:34:20 <esowiki> [[Taktentus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74146&oldid=50760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* External resources */ from categories import languages, implemented, y_2015
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23:34:37 <shachaf> I might just put these things in comments for my solver.
23:34:52 <shachaf> First I need to make my solver good enough that I don't need to use other solvers all the time.

2020-06-21:

00:16:22 <arseniiv> hello bye
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00:37:54 <ArthurStrong> Speaking of SAT solvers
00:38:00 <ArthurStrong> SAT solver on top of regex matcher https://yurichev.com/news/20200621_regex_SAT/
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00:44:24 <esowiki> [[BWTFN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74147&oldid=64508 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Print something 1000 times */
00:44:48 <esowiki> [[BWTFN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74148&oldid=74147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) Fix headers
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03:24:08 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74149&oldid=74144 * ZippyMagician * (+8) Fix interpreter error
03:34:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Chibill *  New user account
03:37:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74150&oldid=74117 * Chibill * (+181) 
03:37:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74151&oldid=74150 * Chibill * (+1) 
03:42:55 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74152&oldid=74149 * Chibill * (+423) Add my GORBITSA compiler to the list of implementations.
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03:44:01 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74153&oldid=74152 * Chibill * (+14) Fix link to it.
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03:50:08 <esowiki> [[User:Arcorann]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74154 * Arcorann * (+38) Created page with "== Subpage index== *[[/TPK Algorithm]]"
04:30:21 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of the envelope for the IBM flowchart template?
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05:03:02 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: me?
05:04:07 <zzo38> Well, anyone, really.
05:07:25 <int-e> `? zzo38
05:07:28 <HackEso> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
05:07:59 <ArthurStrong> `? int-e
05:08:00 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
05:08:04 <ArthurStrong> `? ArthurStrong 
05:08:09 <HackEso> ArthurStrong ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:08:20 <ArthurStrong> `? shachaf 
05:08:22 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
05:09:27 <ArthurStrong> `? arseniiv
05:09:29 <HackEso> arseniiv is a blank slate who is afraid of alchemy, especially the kind involving chalk.
05:09:50 <ArthurStrong> what to do to earn a personal entry for this bot? wondering...
05:09:57 <ArthurStrong> `? shachaf 
05:09:58 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
05:10:10 <shachaf> ?
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07:05:39 <esowiki> [[User:Arcorann/TPK Algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74155 * Arcorann * (+1637) Created page with "The '''TPK algorithm''' is an algorithm used by Luis Trabb Pardo and Donald Knuth in the 1977 paper "The Early Development of Programming Languages" to demonstrate various fea..."
07:06:09 <esowiki> [[DOGO]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74156&oldid=70760 * Arcorann * (+35) /* External resources */
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08:31:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Horsey *  New user account
09:07:27 <esowiki> [[Int**]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74157&oldid=74113 * Hakerh400 * (+46) 
09:32:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74158&oldid=74151 * Georgelam6 * (+179) /* Introductions */
09:33:14 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74159 * Georgelam6 * (+1019) Bitshit is a programming language that can only work in bits.
09:34:17 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74160&oldid=74159 * Georgelam6 * (+105) 
09:35:11 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74161&oldid=74160 * Georgelam6 * (-98) 
09:35:37 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74162&oldid=74161 * Georgelam6 * (+98) 
09:36:23 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74163&oldid=74162 * Georgelam6 * (+48) 
09:37:29 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74164&oldid=74163 * Georgelam6 * (+85) 
09:38:48 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74165&oldid=74164 * Georgelam6 * (-40) 
09:40:16 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74166&oldid=74165 * Georgelam6 * (-69) 
09:40:55 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74167&oldid=74166 * Georgelam6 * (-113) 
09:42:20 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74168&oldid=74167 * Georgelam6 * (+76) 
09:42:44 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74169&oldid=74168 * Georgelam6 * (-4) 
09:50:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74170&oldid=74158 * Horsey * (+44) 
09:51:18 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74171&oldid=74153 * Horsey * (+1582) /* Programs */
09:51:51 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74172&oldid=74171 * Horsey * (+9) /* Snake (By Horsey) */
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10:10:26 <Dion> Hi! I had a question. If I, for example, wanted to add features to my language that i created and submitted a couple days ago, would it be better to just edit the existing page, make a 2.0 version of the language or just not do anything for now?
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10:27:30 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74173&oldid=74081 * Dion * (+27) 
10:39:32 <myname> edit it.
10:41:49 <myname> even _if_ you made a 2.0 version, why would you not put that on the same page?
10:45:28 <Dion> Ok, thx!
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11:28:25 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74174&oldid=74172 * Horsey * (+17) /* Snake (By Horsey) */
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11:51:44 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74175&oldid=74174 * Horsey * (+21) /* Snake (By Horsey) */
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12:22:36 <arseniiv> <ais523> that's what I get for not reading the whole scrollback before commenting  <b_jonas> yeah, I do that all the time too => I’ve read this part only now even
12:55:08 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74176&oldid=74169 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+250) wikify
12:55:20 <esowiki> [[Bitshit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74177&oldid=74176 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* External resources */ fix cat
13:06:17 <esowiki> [[Con-Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74178&oldid=12135 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+207) /* Implementation */ cats + tc
13:06:26 <esowiki> [[Con-Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74179&oldid=74178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Turing-completeness */
13:21:17 <esowiki> [[Wumpus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74180&oldid=54081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
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13:45:58 <arseniiv> @ask cpressey in Tandem, should `lα → α` be considered changing stack `l`? I’d use a simple diff to determine if R & S = 0 and if R | S should raise an error when in deterministic mode, if `lα → α` and `lα… → α…` are identities, otherwise I’d need to collect changes when applying R*, to know all `l` for which there were changes, even if their final values ended up unchanged
13:45:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:54:18 <esowiki> [[Arch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74181&oldid=67745 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Computational Properties */
13:56:36 <esowiki> [[An arch is simply a curve.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74182&oldid=68240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Specification */
14:04:34 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey “and M(R) is the set of objects matched by the pattern at some given point in the rewrite process” => ah, this part seems to indicate that `lα → α` is not 1
14:04:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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14:20:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74183 * Emerald * (+1145) /* Extra minimization */ new section
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14:45:55 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74184&oldid=74175 * ZippyMagician * (-59) Large bugfix of interpreter
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15:39:02 <esowiki> [[Perl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74186&oldid=68956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* In shell scripts */ cat
15:43:03 <esowiki> [[NotBrainFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74187&oldid=66056 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-16) unpipe
15:44:09 <zzo38> Would English spellings be less messy if you are using Germanic rather than Latin alphabets? Latin alphabets are good for Latin writing, but maybe not so much in English?
15:45:33 <esowiki> [[No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74188&oldid=70042 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) /* Hello, World program */
15:45:52 <esowiki> [[No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74189&oldid=74188 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Hello, World program */
15:47:12 <esowiki> [[No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74190&oldid=74189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+158) cats + deadlink /* External resources */
15:47:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think any popular germanic language has an ortohgraphy that could reasonably get close to representing English's large inventory of vowel qualities
15:47:48 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74191 * Dominic Zdan * (+168) Created page with "== What I do ==  I am a Ruby programmer  I am planning on creating my own esolang == What im working on ==  Im working on a language that has a self  explanatory syntax"
15:47:58 <b_jonas> so no
15:48:45 <zzo38> I mean using runes, not the modern alphabets
15:48:52 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74192&oldid=74191 * Dominic Zdan * (+3) /* What I do */
15:51:16 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74193&oldid=74192 * Dominic Zdan * (+18) 
15:51:34 <zzo38> I think the English runes are actually more than those of other Germanic languages
15:51:43 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74194&oldid=74193 * Dominic Zdan * (-8) /* What I do */
15:52:01 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74195&oldid=74194 * Dominic Zdan * (-6) /* What im working on */
15:57:52 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74196&oldid=74195 * Dominic Zdan * (+2) /* What im working on */
15:58:13 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74197&oldid=74196 * Dominic Zdan * (+0) /* What im working on */
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15:58:59 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74199&oldid=74198 * Dominic Zdan * (+2) /* What I do */
15:59:30 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74200&oldid=74199 * Dominic Zdan * (-1) /* What im working on */
16:00:05 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74201&oldid=74200 * Dominic Zdan * (-3) /* What im working on */
16:00:27 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74202&oldid=74201 * Dominic Zdan * (-5) /* What I do */
16:00:38 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74203&oldid=74202 * Dominic Zdan * (-3) /* What im working on */
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16:24:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: the runes don't have more vowels either, I think
16:24:48 <b_jonas> at least as far as I know futhark runes
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18:34:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74205&oldid=74183 * Emerald * (+207) Edit
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19:36:22 <arseniiv> zzo38: IPA may be enough, and there were several other attempts to make an English-tailored phonetic alphabet for use in pre-school teaching and something like that, though all based on latin, enhanced with additional letters (almost just like in IPA, though maybe more kid-friendly and connected with the usual orthography). But the situation is bad as phonology is different in some details for various English dialects, even if we take only prestigious 
19:36:22 <arseniiv> ones. Though these differences are not that big yet, but they definitely would cause arguing which phonetic spelling is better. There are even minor disputes what phonemes there are for any given language variant as real languages are a little bit more complex than a simple (and for many purposes, good) model phonology uses
19:39:59 <zzo38> I know the phonology is different in different dialects, but I thought runes already solved that problem, although maybe I am wrong
19:49:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: "based on latin" how much? which of these do you count as based on latin: Shavian, futhark, braille, Moon, American/German fingerspelling, British fingerspelling, semaphore flags, morse, Baudot code, Hollerith card code (or EBCDIC and MIX character code based on them), ASCII
19:50:10 <b_jonas> of those, only Shavian is a pronunciation-based system, the rest are just alternate scripts for that are sometimes used to write English with the same spelling system
19:51:21 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I mainly considered phonetic scripts
19:52:37 <b_jonas> also I guess I should ask about the major stenographic systems used for English: Pittman and Gregg, since those definitely try to be somewhat pronunciation-based, do you count as based on Latin?
19:52:49 <arseniiv> zzo38: phonology is not that different usually, phonemes are more abstract than the sounds we speak, but “phonetical” writing usually describes something on phonemic level rather than something more lower-level
19:53:03 <arseniiv> which is unfortunate naming
19:53:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but if you only consider phonetic scripts, then does Shavian and/or Deseret count as Latin-based?
19:54:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I didn’t want to say they are all based on latin, sorry :D but people seem to concentrate on latin-based when making a graphics which is easier to transition into from the current one
19:58:19 <b_jonas> I know there are several phonetic notations for English that are clearly based on latin: several variants based on IPA, a few that try to be ASCII transcriptions of IPA-like systems, a few based on diacritics over letters in Webster dictionary's style, and a few others like the notation in http://www.wyrdplay.org/AlanBeale/CAAPR-ref.html (strongly recommended) and the notation in 
19:58:25 <b_jonas> http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict (not recommended)
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20:06:06 <zzo38> For writing the pronounciation, I also had another idea rather than IPA, which is not based on Latin or other alphabets but rather based on the position in the consonants and vowels grid.
20:12:06 <esowiki> [[Blablafuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74206&oldid=50847 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+694) /* Hello World */
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20:19:21 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamplighter_group
20:19:53 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74207&oldid=68959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) 
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20:24:39 <arseniiv> do I need to compute something with all the 2^n conjugates of a number x ∈ Q[√a1][√a2]…[√an] to find its minimal polynomial over Q?
20:25:30 <rain1> you may not need to
20:26:13 <rain1> you can create a nxn matrix that represents the action of multiplication by x on a given basis, if you can find any basis for Q(x)
20:26:25 <rain1> then the characteristic polynomial of that matrix (M - Ix) will be the minpoly
20:29:03 <rain1> wait
20:29:09 <rain1> im not sure if it is nxn anymore
20:29:32 <rain1> maybe it's 2^n x 2^n i only did this with n=2 before
20:29:52 <arseniiv> rain1: oh! This seems both a more right way to do things and both a more intellectually demanding one (reading about finding a basis for Q(x)). Hm did you mean Q[x]? All a1, …, an are positive and don’t have a square root in the corresponding fields Q, Q[√a1], …, Q[√a1]…[√a(n−1)]
20:30:46 <rain1> let's think about the n=3 case, say sqrt(2), sqrt(3), sqrt(5)
20:30:52 <arseniiv> rain1: hm if the size is exponential then surely a plain multiplication of (X − x), (X − one conjugate of x), … (X − the last conjugate of x) will be the same complexity?
20:30:55 <rain1> yeah it has size 2^3 = 8...
20:30:57 <rain1> my bad
20:31:52 <rain1> I believe that a = sqrt(2) + sqrt(3) + sqrt(5), will be a primitive element so {1,a,a^2,a^3,a^4,...,a^7} will be a basis
20:32:19 <arseniiv> no problem. I started thinking about this problem by reading a Python impl of constructible numbers here: https://github.com/leovt/constructible/blob/master/constructible.py#L323 (it follows another impl in Haskell but that one doesn’t concerns itself with hashes and minimal polys)
20:32:30 <rain1> so it will not be too bad to produce the 2^n x 2^n matrix
20:33:00 <rain1> hm but the min poly is not enough 
20:33:19 <rain1> you also need an approximation of the value or something, to uniquely determine which root of the minpoly you are referring to?
20:33:54 <arseniiv> for the hash? why? If 2^n elements have the same hash and n is a reasonable value which won’t blow one’s RAM off, I think it should be cool
20:34:33 <arseniiv> (and the equality testing is covered without resorting to the hash; this one is easy)
20:34:39 <rain1> ah right!
20:35:02 <rain1> earlier I meant det(M - Ix)
20:36:19 <arseniiv> ah, yeah, I read that as “the characteristic polynomial of M” and negated that typo :D
20:38:59 <moony> ^help
20:38:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:39:05 <rain1> I guess the constrible numbers is the field with all square roots added(?)
20:39:13 <rain1> connstructable
20:39:32 <arseniiv> yeah
20:40:28 <arseniiv> it’s a union of all Q[√…]…finite…[√…]
20:41:24 <arseniiv> a union in a sensible manner, I don’t know how that’s done precisely but for any two elements you can find a Q[√…]…finite…[√…] they both immerse in
20:42:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's done by making it a subfield of the field of complex numbers
20:43:45 <arseniiv> I worry current implementations don’t try to compress the count of field extensions too eagerly for it to be usable in actual computations, but I haven’t read their code (neither Python, nor Haskell) enough
20:44:13 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, that thing. Then the reals would be sufficient for the case used in geometry
20:44:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think GAP's implementation handles that well, I don't know about other implementations
20:44:55 <rain1> or just all real square roots
20:45:08 <b_jonas> arseniiv: reals vs complexes doesn't matter much here on account that sqrt(-x) = i*sqrt(x), so the complex version is just the real version extended with i
20:45:30 <b_jonas> no wait, that's not enough proof
20:45:31 <arseniiv> agree
20:45:35 <arseniiv> oh
20:46:33 <arseniiv> at least I agree something like that should be going there, C being algebraically closed and all that
20:49:49 <rain1> i like also how the origami constructible numbers includes cube roots
20:50:25 <arseniiv> this is nice
20:50:37 <rain1> so you can trisect angles 
20:50:45 <rain1> I don't know how this relates to cube roots
20:50:48 <rain1> but i heard you can
20:54:37 <b_jonas> yes, the point is that you can write the square root of a complext number as sqrt(x + i*y) = sqrt((sqrt(x**2+y**2) + x)/2) + i*sqrt((sqrt(x**2+y**2+y)/2), which is not an equation I know by heart but I probably should, but I do know that it exists,
20:54:56 <rain1> you don't need to know it
20:55:08 <rain1> I didn't know this
20:55:47 <b_jonas> and beacuse of that, if you want to do calculations on complex numbers with square roots and field ops, you can emulate them with square roots and field ops on real numbers,
20:56:34 <b_jonas> which is the same as doing compass and ruler constructions, so you don't get more constructible numbers on complexes, or more square root field extensions if you allow complex square roots;
20:57:16 <b_jonas> but this case contrasts to cube roots, where you definitely can't compute the cube root of a complex number using just real cube roots, real square roots, and field operations and i
20:57:16 <arseniiv> oh I think I nailed the algorithm to compute a minpoly
20:57:26 <rain1> noice
20:57:28 <rain1> how did you do it?
20:58:17 <b_jonas> which is why you can't solve some cubic equations with real coeffs using only real cube roots, but you can solve them using complex square roots.
20:58:34 <rain1> woah
20:59:06 <b_jonas> That's not really why you can't construct angle trisections: you can't construct either kind of cube root with a compass, you can't even construct 2**(1/3) with a compass
20:59:35 <b_jonas> although you would need a complex cube root for angle trisection.
21:00:40 <arseniiv> rain1: the conjugation on each level of the Q[...]... tower has usual complex conjugation properties like (xy)′ = x′y′, (x + y)′ = x′ + y′, 0′ = 0, 1′ = 1 so we can conjugate polynomials coefficientwise and get polynomials for larger and larger products of monomials each for its own conjugate of the number
21:00:48 <b_jonas> note that in the above formula, if x and y are real, all four square roots have nonnegative real numbers as the argument
21:00:58 <b_jonas> arseniiv: does that make sense?
21:02:48 <arseniiv> for example we start with P0 ≡ X − x, then let’s denote more and more deep conjugations as ′, ″, ‴, …, then (X − x) (X − x′) is the same as (X − x) (X − x)′ = P0 P0′ =: P1, then we do P1 P1′ =: P2 and so on for each field extension right to the inner Q then we’re done
21:03:06 <arseniiv> I don’t know how bad it is but seems pretty economical
21:03:22 <rain1> oh yeah i see
21:03:34 <rain1> but this would require lots of multiplications in the base field
21:03:49 <rain1> it will work though
21:04:00 <arseniiv> ah but there’s a little caveat, we need to skip “inessential extensions” which give the same P
21:04:23 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74208&oldid=74203 * Dominic Zdan * (+57) /* What im working on */
21:04:33 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there's actually an algorithm to do computations on constructible numbers using nothing but fancy square root stuff, no fancy field theory tricks, but in general it's so slow that it's impractical, which is why you want an implementation like that in GAP (which actually handles a much larger subset of algebraic numbers than constructible numbers)
21:04:44 <arseniiv> I mean, if Pi′ = Pi, then we set P(i+1) := Pi, not a square
21:05:41 <arseniiv> b_jonas: do you mean something better than 2^n rational numbers for each Q[√a1]…[√an]?
21:06:23 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the former isn't much better than that (you can use a sparse vector), I don't know how the latter works
21:07:00 <b_jonas> you can look it up in the docs
21:07:08 <arseniiv> maybe the latter uses something about modules and things like Gröbner bases or what was it
21:07:34 <rain1> you can work in the ring Q[x,y,z]/(x^2-2,y^2-3,z^2-5)
21:07:49 <rain1> field
21:08:18 <b_jonas> I know there's also an algorithm to compute with arbitrary algebraic complex numbers, but it's so difficult that I know of only one thing that implements it, and that thing is Mathematica and its implementation is effectively a black-box. I have no idea how that algorithm works.
21:08:44 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the GAP docs has a description, if you can't find it ping me and I'll look up a link
21:09:05 <b_jonas> plus it's open source
21:09:16 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: does that make sense? => I certainly remember finding a formula for sqrt(x + iy) but I don’t remember if that ended up as your one sorry
21:09:26 <rain1> I always thought that would be a good project to do, exact algebraic computations
21:09:37 <rain1> I think that a pair of approximation + minpoly would be OK
21:09:54 <rain1> since an approximation is enough to let you compute a more accurate approximation
21:10:24 <arseniiv> hm that one was reminiscent of half-sine and half-cosine formulas I think (for obvious reasons of course) but I think it would need some cooking to turn into this one
21:10:31 <rain1> i'm not exactly sure how you + and * these elements
21:10:55 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: the GAP docs has a description, if you can't find it ping me and I'll look up a link => thanks! Though I’m not pursuing this think that hard yet
21:10:57 <b_jonas> never mind, I'll look it up: https://www.gap-system.org/Manuals/doc/ref/chap18.html
21:10:59 <rain1> but it would be very cool to do this exact computation with algebraic numbers
21:11:50 <rain1> perhaps the LLL algorithm would be fine
21:12:00 <rain1> you would just need a way to know how accurate an approximation is needed
21:12:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, it's not trivial that the algebraic numbers even form a field
21:12:13 <b_jonas> that's why you need minimal polynomials
21:12:27 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> never mind, I'll look it up: https://www.gap-system.org/Manuals/doc/ref/chap18.html => how does one represent those extensions via cyclotomic numbers?
21:12:54 <rain1> I may implement this
21:13:05 <rain1> are there some cool uses of it I could do if i make this?
21:13:13 <b_jonas> though for just constructible numbers, it is trivial that they form a field, that's basically how they're defined
21:14:23 <rain1> i have a bunch of math stuf i want to implement actually
21:14:26 <rain1> symmetric polys
21:14:44 <arseniiv> <rain1> are there some cool uses of it I could do if i make this? => precisely checking if tiles of some constructible (or algebraic) tileset match and constructing pieces of tesselations this way
21:15:10 <arseniiv> I saw into the constructible numbers once because of precisely this
21:15:53 <arseniiv> now I intend to use floating point and correct inaccuracies in some unknown manner but it should be possible as the construction is rigid
21:16:43 <rain1> oh yes
21:16:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I might be wrong here, but I think cyclotomic numbers are closed to field ops and square root, so any constructible number is a cyclotomic number. for representing a specific field extension, I don't know, you probably want a finite basis (a set of cyclotomics that generate your field), except this time you represent those numbers as cyclotomics
21:17:01 <rain1> there was also CReal which was very cool
21:17:15 <b_jonas> and do the field operations and square root on numbers represented as cyclotomics
21:17:31 <rain1> every abelian extension is a subfield of a cyclotomic field I think
21:17:46 <arseniiv> rain1: I implemented quaternionic logarithm once though I don’t think I know what branch that code selects; at least exponentiating it should give back the original number, modulo rounding errors
21:18:11 <arseniiv> it’s a pity I hadn’t found formulas anywhere, they’re quite simple
21:18:36 <arseniiv> and the result for a rotation quaternion is its axis-angle representation
21:19:45 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that's easy, you can implement it based on complex logarithm, because any non-real quaternion generates (as a real vector space) a set isomorphic (as a field) to complex numbers, and you can just construct the isomorphism with complex numbers trivially and compute logarithm there
21:19:50 <arseniiv> all the possible values of the logarithm in that case would just have the same axis and the angle + 2 π Z, as is indeed logical
21:20:23 <rain1> arseniiv, what would be an example of these algebraic tilings?
21:20:57 <rain1> https://blogs.ams.org/visualinsight/2013/09/01/algebraic-numbers/
21:21:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm I didn’t thought about this that way but yeah I used that the vector quaternion squares to −1
21:21:39 <b_jonas> in practice this means you split your argument to its real part p and imaginary part q, compute r the mangitude of q, compute u + i*v = log(p + i*r), then log(p + q) = u + q/r*v
21:22:43 <arseniiv> rain1: I mean, if there is a tiling which uses regular heptagons, as they aren’t constructible, so one will indeed need arbitrary algebraic numbers to represent tilings with tiles like that
21:22:59 <rain1> interesting
21:23:55 <rain1> https://blogs.ams.org/visualinsight/2014/11/15/packing-regular-heptagons/
21:25:39 <arseniiv> rain1: oh, so one can use only two kinds of tiles, that kite-like one added
21:25:44 <b_jonas> arseniiv: but there's no such tiling, at least not in the Eucleadian plane. there is a hyperbolic tiling of course.
21:26:02 <arseniiv> that would be a nice test, to construct a piece of this packing, for the framework
21:26:21 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I mean not by only heptagons :D
21:27:06 <arseniiv> I quite like tilings with many kinds of tiles, compared to regular ones, they are boring
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21:27:31 <arseniiv> (the regular ones are boring; I need to use commas the right way)
21:27:46 <arseniiv> I’ll go to, I think
21:29:07 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well ok, at least there's no tiling with regular heptagons and other regular polygons either
21:30:19 <b_jonas> and if you just want something like a regular heptagon plus two tight packaging thingies on its side that complete it to a square, then the algebraic numbers in your heptagon don't actually cause any difficulties
21:31:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * AdCharity *  New user account
21:32:18 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: well ok, at least there's no tiling with regular heptagons and other regular polygons either => do you mean other than 3, 4 and 6-gon?
21:32:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74209&oldid=74170 * AdCharity * (+185) I added my name :P
21:32:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, any that uses at least one regular heptagon
21:33:01 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> and if you just want something like a regular heptagon plus two tight packaging thingies on its side that complete it to a square, then the algebraic numbers in your heptagon don't actually cause any difficulties => yeah that tiling is not good enough
21:33:10 <b_jonas> because you can't even complete the surrounding of a vertex to 2 pi angle if there's a heptagon plus regular polygon angles
21:33:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah now I think I parsed that
21:34:18 <arseniiv> the good kind of tiling is something like these:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voderberg_tiling  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammann%E2%80%93Beenker_tiling
21:35:02 <arseniiv> bye!
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21:52:05 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74210&oldid=74208 * Dominic Zdan * (-144) /* What im working on */
21:52:32 <esowiki> [[User:Dominic Zdan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74211&oldid=74210 * Dominic Zdan * (-5) /* What I do */
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22:46:11 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74212&oldid=61621 * Dominic Zdan * (+1) /* Groups */
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2020-06-22:

00:33:34 <impomatic> Is anyone here a ghostscript wizard? I've got a file where all the pages are set to letter size, but the actual content is half-letter.
00:34:20 <impomatic> I can resize the pages, but the actual content is half on the final page, half off. I just need to figure out how to shift it down a bit.
00:35:25 <b_jonas> impomatic: I think the page size is included only in the DSC comments, so you can edit that. but there's a chance that the content wasn't aligned to the origin of the postscript coordinate system, in which case you'll get the empty half of the paper.
00:35:38 <b_jonas> impomatic: can you try that first? if that doesn't work, I'll try to look for some other solution
00:41:22 <zzo38> impomatic: I use Ghostscript.
00:41:38 <zzo38> You can set the page size using command-line arguments, or using setpagedevice.
00:42:02 <impomatic> Thanks
00:42:04 <zzo38> (I don't use DSC though, but I know that you can use setpagedevice to set the page size)
00:43:01 <impomatic> I am using this command-line: gs -o tcwn11.pdf -sDEVICE=pdfwrite -g3960x6120px spring92.ps
00:43:20 <impomatic> On this file http://pauillac.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/tcwn/spring92.ps.gz
00:43:21 <zzo38> If you want to shift down the contents of the page, you can use set your own transformation matrix.
00:43:44 <impomatic> It's resizing the pages, just half the text isn't on the page.
00:46:09 <zzo38> You would use the translate command to move the origin of the coordinate system.
00:47:06 <impomatic> Thanks, just going to look up translate
00:51:27 <b_jonas> impomatic: the pstops tool from impomatic can resize pages and translate the contents without rewriting anything, so it keeps basically all the info that was in the postscript 
00:54:19 <b_jonas> so I recommend pstops, it's probably the best solution unless you generated the postscript file yourself
01:02:34 <impomatic> Thanks, pstops did the trick :-D
01:18:49 <b_jonas> I found a copy of some old #esoteric memories on my hard disk: rano's toy compiler called bcompiler, buu's buubot2 and buubot3, and most importantly, simcop's Farnsworth interpreter
01:20:26 <b_jonas> you can get the latter from CPAN: https://metacpan.org/release/Language-Farnsworth
01:23:50 <b_jonas> but I think the other two fell off the internet
01:24:05 <b_jonas> though of course there might be mirrors somewhere
01:24:47 <b_jonas> does Farnsworth count as an esolang?
01:25:33 <b_jonas> it's a toy language, that might be enough to make it esoteric
01:35:06 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74213 * B jonas * (+1078) simcop's Farnsworth language
01:49:23 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74214&oldid=74213 * B jonas * (+571) 
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02:49:56 <zzo38> Are there common formats for storing halftone patterns? I have an idea about applying halftoning to a input file in the separations output format, and to produce a output file in the same format but with the halftoning applied. It might or might not change the resolution, and might or might not change the set of separations (one reason they might change is in case you are doing CcMmYK printing).
02:56:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think those are usually stored mostly temporarily and in whatever format the printer accepts, since the halftoning you use will depend on the printer
02:59:57 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, although using printer-specific formats is probably only useful if the halftoning is implemented in the printer, isn't it?
03:06:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think so. the printer-specific format can contain a compressed bitmap form of the halftoned images, already halftoned, plus possibly some text, in which case the printer needn't implement halftoning, only decoding the bitmap and rendering text
03:06:53 <b_jonas> that would be the case for at least old matrix printers
03:07:22 <b_jonas> and possibly also some old laser printers too, from before they started to put hundreds of megabytes of RAM into them
03:07:54 <b_jonas> though it's possible that laser printers intrinsically need that much RAM because they have to print quickly and so need to render a whole page in memory before printing,
03:08:27 <b_jonas> unlike inkjets and matrix printers, which can print line by line or in even smaller granularity as long as the data comes in the order corresponding to physical movements of the hand
03:08:31 <b_jonas> s/hand/head/
03:08:48 <b_jonas> so make that old inkjets
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03:56:28 <zzo38> Yes, of course if they are already halftoned then you will convert it to the printer format
04:32:02 <zzo38> Do you know if it is common or even if it is sometimes done at all to print different separations at different resolutions?
04:32:53 <zzo38> (Currently, the "separations output format" that I made up only supports one resolution for all separations on a page.)
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08:19:15 <b_jonas> showing Creative Commons's round icons for the cc-by license to indicate that the content is under the cc-by-nc-nd 4.0 license: SO FUCKING USEFUL, WEBPAGE! are you trying to DELIBERATELY TRAP SOMEONE INTO AN ACCIDENTAL COPYRIGHT VIOLATION?
08:20:52 <rain1> hi!
08:21:34 <b_jonas> hello
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08:25:34 <b_jonas> apparently it uses a webfont to display the icons
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08:33:30 <moony> I think i've grown to like VAXen too much
08:33:32 <b_jonas> sorry, I'll just write to their contact address
08:33:41 <moony> i'm contemplating geting a physical copy of the architecture manual
08:34:10 <b_jonas> moony: print one in a copy shop and spiral bind it
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08:34:32 <moony> b_jonas: but real thing is more fun (and probably cheaper if I get it alongside a bunch of other manuals)
08:34:33 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74215&oldid=74214 * Keymaker * (+24) Fixed code tags.
08:35:38 <moony> found an offer that includes PDP-11 manuals alongside it which is a fun bonus
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08:37:07 <moony> b_jonas: if I plan to use any of the manuals for extended periods of time i'll probably print-shop it to protect the manuals
08:37:12 <moony> :P
08:38:11 <moony> architecture itself has turned out to be really fun to work with
08:38:19 <moony> (not so much to emulate tho D:)
08:41:30 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74216&oldid=73988 * Chris Pressey * (-13) Example sections: make more consistent and remove excessively deep nesting.
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09:26:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Klaus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74217 * Chris Pressey * (+492) Created page with "=== Declarative paradigm, really? ===  I think this language is miscategorized as declarative -- it's described in terms of statements, instructions, loading integers into reg..."
09:36:08 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74218&oldid=74173 * Dion * (+1956) 
09:36:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Klaus/Dense]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74219 * Chris Pressey * (+300) Created page with "=== Exclamation points or periods? ===  The text consistently states that a track ends in an exclamation point, but in the example programs the tracks consistently end with pe..."
09:44:10 <esowiki> [[ByteByteJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74220&oldid=63901 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Fix computational class.
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09:48:21 <esowiki> [[BitBitJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74221&oldid=50709 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Whatever it is, it's not an LBA. Fix cat.
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09:52:35 <esowiki> [[1mpr0mp2]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74222&oldid=73031 * Chris Pressey * (+17) Fix computational class in infobox.
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10:03:56 <esowiki> [[2DP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74223&oldid=21609 * Chris Pressey * (-1) Fix computational class.
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10:25:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:BitBitJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74224&oldid=70053 * Chris Pressey * (+1332) 
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10:53:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74225&oldid=73879 * Chris Pressey * (+131) +see also Special:Categories
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10:58:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74226&oldid=74225 * Chris Pressey * (+162) Note a point of site policy regarding caregories.
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11:21:22 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74227&oldid=74216 * Chris Pressey * (+39) +cat
11:25:34 <esowiki> [[Enigma-2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74228&oldid=72882 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:25:54 <esowiki> [[Morsefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74229&oldid=72873 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:26:53 <esowiki> [[Wishmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74230&oldid=72909 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (without arguing about the computational class)
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11:34:26 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74231&oldid=74127 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:35:02 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74232&oldid=70778 * Chris Pressey * (-1) Fix cat
11:45:08 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74233&oldid=73511 * Chris Pressey * (+22) +cat
11:56:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74234&oldid=70383 * Chris Pressey * (+236) /* BSM */ Approve vote, sort of
11:59:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: rain1: on that minpoly algorithm, if you wish to review its description, here it is: https://github.com/leovt/constructible/issues/4 maybe if it’s incomprehensible your advice would neat it up for the repo’s author
12:00:03 <arseniiv> gtg
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13:07:19 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74235&oldid=72351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Glossary */
13:07:44 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74236&oldid=74235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Subpages */ cat
13:12:20 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74237&oldid=74218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Version 0.1 */
13:16:41 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74238&oldid=72127 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* New instructions */ cats.add(cats.Languages, cats.TuringComplete, cats.TuringTarpits);
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13:18:27 <esowiki> [[Newbiefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74239&oldid=66953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Example Program */ cat
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13:25:15 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74241&oldid=74227 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Computational class */ cat
13:29:28 <esowiki> [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74242&oldid=57490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+161) /* External resources */ cats + copy refimpl
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13:46:48 <cpressey> There's a Turing machine that writes a `1` onto its current tape cell, then moves the tape head left, then repeats this indefinitely, with the property that the tape has one more `1`s on it at each step.
13:47:05 <cpressey> s/left/right I suppose
13:47:35 <cpressey> either that or turn the TM around 180 degrees
13:54:33 <Taneb> Or start the infinite tape in the middle
13:55:11 <Taneb> cpressey: so, what's interesting about this TM to you
13:59:00 <cpressey> If you have a language, and you can't write a program that has this behaviour in that language, then that language isn't Turing-complete.
13:59:43 <Taneb> The only observable behaviour being "it doesn't halt"
14:00:19 <cpressey> I want to know who claims Turing machines have "observable behaviour" as distinct from "unobservable behaviour".
14:00:33 <cpressey> These are terms from operational semantics, not computability.
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14:00:57 <cpressey> A Turing machine is a mathematical object.
14:01:06 <cpressey> Who is telling me there are parts of it I can't look at?
14:01:16 <arseniiv> hi
14:02:17 <cpressey> Hi arseniiv.
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14:09:49 <cpressey> arseniiv: In Tandem (R | S) & (S | T) is also 0, because of the overlap (S).  If this messes up distributivity, well, I don't know how to fix it atm.
14:11:49 <cpressey> Could maybe make the overlap criteria based on what is actually matched (at "runtime") rather than the labels that appear at the patterns?
14:13:25 <arseniiv> cpressey: my incomprehensible advice would be establishing denotation semantics formally in any manner you see fit, and then runtime behavior and allowed identities would follow :D
14:13:47 <arseniiv> ah, also did I guess correctly that lα → α is not 1?
14:14:19 <cpressey> It depends, what is α there?
14:14:31 <arseniiv> a string
14:14:40 <arseniiv> (and l any label)
14:18:46 <cpressey> Well... 1 is an artificial rule that somehow always matches and changes nothing.  If we can assume l is actually in the program somewhere then 1 is something like: (l"" -> "" | l"a" -> "a" | l"b" -> "b" | etc ad infinitum)
14:19:31 <arseniiv> ah, I forgot about “always matches” part
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14:20:00 <arseniiv> but if l had a value α, then succesfully applying lα → α would mark l as modified?
14:21:32 <cpressey> Stacks don't really get marked as modified or not; it's more that rules are considered to have succeeded or failed to match.
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14:26:49 <cpressey> I should probably try implementing it in Haskell and see if it clarifies anythign.
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14:27:49 <arseniiv> hmm. If a rule R, applied to the state s, first changes l from α to β and then from β to α (it has asteration somewhere inside), and a rule S (applied to s) changes l from α to γ, then what should happen when trying to apply R | S to s, in the deterministic mode? Should this raise an error or proceed normally?
14:30:48 <arseniiv> ultimately I think I haven’t got yet what M(R) represents
14:32:13 <cpressey> ((la -> b | lb -> a)* | la -> g) should be detected as non-deterministic, I think, yes.
14:33:11 <cpressey> M(R) is the set of redexes for R.
14:34:14 <cpressey> I should probably just call it that.
14:36:18 <arseniiv> which would be pairs (label, string), right?
14:36:36 <arseniiv> (and then L(R) should be derivable from M(R)?)
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14:40:09 <cpressey> Yes, it would be a set of pairs (label, string).  (Or maybe it has to be a multiset?  But basically yes.)
14:40:55 <cpressey> L(R) is derivable statically from R -- it's just the set of labels that appear in the patterns in R.  Unlike M(R) it doesn't depend on the state.
14:41:10 <cpressey> (the state of the object being rewritten at any particular point in execution)
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14:42:33 <arseniiv> cpressey: thanks
14:43:34 <cpressey> arseniiv: Thanks for asking these questions, it's making me think about how it could be explained better and where there might be gaps
14:43:57 <arseniiv> I’ll show you implementation I’ll end with, too
14:44:09 <Taneb> cpressey: "Turing completeness", as I was taught it, is about whether a program can accept any language that can be recognized by a Turing machine. The Turing machine you gave neither accepts nor rejects any string, hence cannot be said to recognize any language particlularly well
14:44:43 <arseniiv> though I intend to write just the essential part, the runtime, without a parser and maybe without IO yet
14:58:17 <cpressey> Taneb: OK.  There is a single TM that inputs a number in binary and accepts iff it is a prime number, no matter how large that number is.
14:58:44 <cpressey> If you have a language and you can't write that TM in that language then that language isn't Turing complete.
15:01:18 <Taneb> Yes
15:02:13 <cpressey> My point is that, sometimes, a language is claimed to be Turing complete, and often the counterexample is a very simple Turing machine.
15:06:09 <cpressey> Or rather, that I've seen the same misconceptions over and over about what makes a language Turing-complete, and I'm trying to come up with simple-to-understand counterexamples for them.
15:11:11 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74243&oldid=69886 * 20kdc * (+23) /* Differences from Brainfuck */ Clarify the non-existence of - with information from the Boolfuck website.
15:11:17 <arseniiv> cpressey: “In this mode, if M(Ri | Rj) contains more than one element, an unrecoverable error to the effect of "ambiguous rewrite choice presented" occurs.” => should it be dependent not on M(Ri | Rj) having many elements? It can contain many and still not indicate Ri and Rj change the same stack?
15:12:35 <cpressey> Right, that needs to be rephrased significantly.
15:12:41 <arseniiv> I’d say, if (l, αi) ∈ M(Ri) and (l, αj) ∈ M(Rj) with αi ≠ αj?
15:13:06 <arseniiv> (then the error)
15:15:25 <cpressey> If M(R) contains more than one match involving the same stack, there should be an error.
15:15:40 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74244&oldid=74243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ cat
15:16:46 <arseniiv> but for conjunction, there would be 0 instead?
15:18:29 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74245&oldid=70541 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) /* Syntax */ cats
15:18:44 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74246&oldid=74245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
15:20:04 <cpressey> If M(Ri | Rj) is ambiguous, is M(Ri & Rj) = 0?  Yes, I think so.
15:20:33 <cpressey> Or rather, is Ri & Rj = 0.  Yes.
15:21:07 <cpressey> Because L(Ri) intersect L(Rj) would never be empty in that case.
15:22:26 <esowiki> [[Iflang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74247&oldid=70155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) cats + bold
15:34:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:COVID-19]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74248&oldid=71394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) unsigned
15:36:31 <esowiki> [[COVID-19]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74249&oldid=71393 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) /* Predecessor */ c a t s
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15:45:14 <cpressey> An even better counterexample TM might be one that accepts only squarewords like "abcabc".  If a language can't stand up to the pumping lemma for regular languages, it definitely isn't Turing-complete.
15:45:25 <Taneb> Yes
15:46:06 <esowiki> [[SoT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74251&oldid=73527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) 
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16:11:09 <esowiki> [[ALT-4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2303) Add ALT-4
16:11:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74253&oldid=74240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* A */ + [[ALT-4]]
16:13:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74254&oldid=74111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) /* Languages */
16:15:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74255&oldid=74226 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Concurrency */ move if needed
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16:22:51 <arseniiv> tried my implementation with a push-down automaton example and it doesn’t halt :(
16:38:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74256&oldid=74255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* See Also */
16:38:47 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74257&oldid=74246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax */ cat
16:39:25 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74258&oldid=71256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) cat /* Links */
16:39:51 <arseniiv> ah this is the error in the automaton itself :D
16:40:27 <arseniiv> cpressey: see the last rule `Q0 -> 0 & I -> & O... -> Y` is applicable indefinitely at the end, so it applies
16:41:00 <arseniiv> I changed it to `Q0 -> 2 & others` and that works like a charm
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16:46:14 <arseniiv> you can find my partial impl here: https://hatebin.com/gnbvdqgvrh (only rule DSL and runtime, no parser, no pragmas and no modes other than the deterministic one)
17:12:08 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74259&oldid=68708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) /* halting problem solved */ cats
17:13:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74260&oldid=72187 * 20kdc * (+959) /* Implementations */ Add a ByteByteJump truth-machine
17:13:59 <esowiki> [[!!Fuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74261&oldid=69346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Hello World */ CATS
17:15:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74262&oldid=74260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) /* A colon semicolon */ fix
17:18:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74263&oldid=74262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* Var=Bar */ add Varigen t.mach
17:21:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74264&oldid=74263 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* JUMP */ ad binary
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18:05:11 <b_jonas> cpressey: that is not easy though. if the language doesn't fail on any of the trivial tests, most importantly if you can't implement it with a one-stack machine with finite control, nor can you simulate it with a program whose runtime is bound by a computable function of the input, then it's hard to prove that the language is not Turing-complete
18:06:01 <b_jonas> there are some other stupid ways to fail, but they don't come up often about languages that people try to claim Turing-complete
18:09:35 <esowiki> [[ByteByte]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74269&oldid=19147 * 20kdc * (+1894) Hypothetical construction of a ByteByteJump interpreter in ByteByte.
18:18:46 <zzo38> Isn't it a trademark violation to show the icons for the cc-by license to indicate that the content is under the cc-by-nc-nd 4.0 license?
18:19:27 <t20kdc> zzo38: it's at least a sanity violation
18:20:54 <zzo38> t20kdc: Yes, but I thought the Creative Commons icons are trademarked
18:22:33 <t20kdc> zzo38: ...well, https://creativecommons.org/policies#trademark is pretty explicitly a "yes"
18:23:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe, I don't really care about the trademark violation here, but the misleading license indicator that may make someone think that the photo is distrib'd with a permissive license when it actually isn't
18:24:31 <b_jonas> they should either put the correct indicators or remove the circular icons entirely and leave only the descriptive text and link to license that's above it
18:25:07 <zzo38> Yes, I agree, they should do one of those two things.
18:25:31 <zzo38> But the trademark violation means that they can be sued if they do not comply, I think.
18:43:21 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74270&oldid=74237 * Dion * (+45) 
18:45:17 <arseniiv> I shouldn’t ever read comments, I shouldn’t ever read comments, I shouldn’t ever read comments. period
18:45:17 <arseniiv> “COMEFROM is alive and well, and very widely used. The only change made was that the marketing guys rebranded it as ‘exception handling’.”
18:45:40 <arseniiv> especially old comments
19:04:43 <b_jonas> was 1205 olisted yet?
19:05:08 <b_jonas> no
19:05:13 <b_jonas> `olist 1205
19:05:16 <HackEso> olist 1205: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
19:10:55 <zzo38> Do you know if any HTML viewing software (such as a web browser) has a table of contents function?
19:14:32 <int-e> arseniiv: hrm that's just wrong
19:17:01 <int-e> arseniiv: the sad truth is that come from is just a goto with the roles of labels and goto interchanged. Exceptions can be used to implement a limited form of goto. That is ignoring threaded INTERCAL, which does not match exception handling at all.
19:17:25 <int-e> Exceptions respect a form of dynamic scope; goto/come from don't.
19:18:20 <int-e> What is true is that various facets of unstructured programming are alive, more or less controlled. Exceptions are closer to the uncontrolled end of the spectrum than not.
19:21:32 <zzo38> Sometimes this role reversal is useful. I sometimes use COME FROM in assembly language programming. I implemented a COME FROM command in the MIXPC assembler because it can be useful for implementing jump tables.
19:21:33 <imode> I never had much stock in strictly structured programming ever since I saw how "forced" a lot of things are when you disallow unstructured constructs.
19:22:05 <zzo38> (It will be compiled into code that use goto instead of come from)
19:22:31 <int-e> speaking of come from, what happened to aspect-oriented programming?
19:23:00 <int-e> is that still a thing outside of property systems with update notifications/modifiers?
19:23:39 <int-e> (and, I guess, event systems in general)
19:23:52 <zzo38> But I also think that unstructured constructs are useful in addition to structured constructs.
19:23:58 <arseniiv> <int-e> arseniiv: hrm that's just wrong => exactly!
19:27:26 <arseniiv> I thought I would find some arguments against the precomposed unicode character … but I found only a meagre one (in many fonts it renders almost like plain ... concatenation of dots and that’s for many people is not good, they want more space, usually NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE
19:27:33 <arseniiv> `unidecode …
19:27:34 <HackEso> ​[U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS]
19:27:40 <arseniiv> this is my one
19:29:22 <int-e> arseniiv: I prefer ... in fixed width fonts, … is just too short.
19:29:33 <arseniiv> precomposed / plain / with narrow nbsp / with nbsp: … ... . . . . . .
19:29:56 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, … in monospace makes me uncomfortable too
19:29:59 <int-e> for the same reason, narrow nbsp = nbsp, of course
19:30:12 <arseniiv> ait
19:30:18 <arseniiv> wait why
19:30:19 <int-e> And IRC is a monospace environment.
19:30:22 <int-e> (For me)
19:30:41 <arseniiv> I didn’t get about narrow nbsp
19:30:43 <int-e> because this is a terminal
19:31:07 <arseniiv> ah, you just stated that they are same length
19:31:12 <zzo38> I also don't like ligatures in fixed width fonts; unfortunately 2600 used ligatures in fixed width fonts, I wrote to complain, and they said they didn't have that but if they did, indeed it shouldn't use ligatures in fixed width fonts, but they still didn't fix it, anyways.
19:31:26 <int-e> arseniiv: they are indistinguishable :P
19:31:49 <arseniiv> so, monospace fonts screw us both on part of … and \.\s\.\s\.
19:32:05 <int-e> maybe if … was a wide character (which, for some reason, do exist. Japanese and Chinese are too popular I guess.)
19:32:15 <arseniiv> int-e: yep space isn’t even a grapheme as there are no strokes :D
19:32:40 <zzo38> Maybe if you didn't use Unicode and use a better character set for fixed width text on grid based displays, can be better
19:32:44 <int-e> (And they don't break the invariant that each character has a corresponding integer cursor position)
19:32:58 <arseniiv> <int-e> maybe if … was a wide character (which, for some reason, do exist. Japanese and Chinese are too popular I guess.) => this is actually a very good proposal
19:33:32 <int-e> zzo38: Could you stop with these purely hypothetical exercises that assume some kind of better world...
19:33:49 <zzo38> Well, I was making a better character set for this purpose.
19:34:48 <int-e> Unicode is a blessing, because it's seeing so broad adaptation. We don't need the n+1st standard that throws us back into the heterogenic past where non-ASCII messages never looked the same for sender and receiver.
19:34:57 <arseniiv> my friend had an intention to make a better encoding once, but then they stopped for some reason
19:35:18 <zzo38> Even with Unicode they don't always are the same, especially with different versions sometimes
19:35:28 <zzo38> (such as if they change the width of the characters)
19:35:32 <arseniiv> emoji: the bane of unicode
19:35:43 <zzo38> arseniiv: What was their use of the better encoding?
19:35:59 <zzo38> (I think that different encodings can be good for different uses; you can't have one good for everything)
19:36:05 <int-e> arseniiv: there are also all those arabic ligatures before they learned better
19:36:06 <arseniiv> (soon in your nearest movie theater)
19:36:28 <int-e> But Unicode is firmly in the "good enough" category in my book.
19:36:54 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, actually I thought one of arguments against … precompose would be “that’s outdated like ā”
19:37:00 <zzo38> Yes, emoji is bane of Unicode too. One thing Unicode is workable for (although emoji doesn't help it, and other things also don't help so much) is for searching many documents in many languages, although someone on this IRC suggested before "Duocode", which might be even a bit better too
19:37:23 <esowiki> [[Generic 2D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74271&oldid=68873 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+174) /* Examples */ cats
19:37:26 <arseniiv> zzo38: hmm I don’t particularly remember but they intended to make it cover at least a part of CJK I think
19:38:00 <arseniiv> there was an intent to use scoped modes in the text for different sub-encodings, which is all I still remember
19:38:07 <zzo38> Even if you do use Unicode, simply specifying the character code as "Unicode" is actually insufficient, for a few reasons (one of them being han unification).
19:40:50 <arseniiv> <int-e> all those arabic ligatures before they learned better => BTW also Turkish İ and ı which pair with ASCII i and I respectively. Poor choice for implementability of text algorithms
19:42:04 <arseniiv> (the better one would be maybe to add duplicate non-ASCII i and I. I know it adds to characters many can misplace but but but)
19:43:08 <arseniiv> and I’m very glad I don’t write in languages that use letters which are represented by these codepoints
19:43:23 <arseniiv> unfortunately
19:44:16 <zzo38> My own is UTCS, which is designed only for fix pitch text, although there are wide characters. There is both a 8-bit encoding and a 16-bit encoding. Both encodings are compatible with ASCII, and you can determine the widths of characters using a simple rule (no need for long tables).
19:44:56 <zzo38> (The width of a character is simply the sum of the widths of the bytes that make it up (or, in the case of the 16-bit encoding, the sum of the widths of those 16-bit units).)
19:45:52 <zzo38> The widths of bytes are: 0x00-0x1F and 0x7F = undefined, 0xC0-0xFF = zero, 0x20-0x7E and 0x80-0xBF = one.
19:46:15 <int-e> arseniiv: even the emoji are probably a good thing, because the ideal alternative world where nobody embeds emojis inside text messages just doesn't exist. this way, such messages can be exchanged between different vendors and look more or less the same
19:46:59 <zzo38> They don't look the same; the icons they use are different, even though they are similar, even the minor differences sometimes they call it a problem.
19:47:09 <int-e> "more or less"
19:47:20 <arseniiv> `unidecode  . . .
19:47:20 <HackEso> ​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP]
19:47:24 <arseniiv> yesh
19:47:43 <arseniiv> (I added this simulacrum to my AutoHotkey script)
19:48:15 <myname> i learned here that "invisible plus" is a thing
19:48:31 <arseniiv> <int-e> this way, such messages can be exchanged between different vendors and look more or less the same => yeah, though that leaves much space for grumblings anyway
19:48:36 <myname> i still fail to understand why anybody would ever need that
19:48:50 <arseniiv> like, “a woman with bunny ears? really??”
19:49:06 <int-e> arseniiv: compromises everywhere
19:49:09 <arseniiv> `quote invisible times
19:49:10 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
19:49:23 <arseniiv> myname: ^ though you know that probably way earlier
19:50:16 <arseniiv> int-e: yes that’s really the one mature thing to say (and think), but boooriiing (no)
19:50:33 <arseniiv> I understand but many don’t
19:51:50 <int-e> arseniiv: The same is true for all the things that are missing... no smiley with dollar symbol eyes? (I think. It's hard to be sure.)
19:51:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: like I said, with the turkish i, we're screwed no matter what we did. Even if you had a time machine to go all the way back before telegraphs and bribed every single inventor, there's nothing you could do to handle both the latin iI and the turkish iİıI sanely, short of murdering Kemal Atatürk so his alphabet never spreads.
19:52:23 <int-e> (Maybe Disney would sue the Unicode consortium over this.)
19:52:51 <b_jonas> Everything else, including the various cyrillic alphabets and vietnamese etc, can be fixed, but turkish i versus the rest of the world is just hopeless.
19:53:06 <zzo38> Is there a version of xterm that supports the DEC technical character set directly rather than using Unicode? (You can select the DEC technical character set, but it internally converts to Unicode for font lookup, which results in some characters being missing.)
19:55:34 <arseniiv> int-e: here it is 🤑
19:55:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, I don't use xterm anymore (I have it installed as a fallback just in case urxvt becomes broken somehow and I need a terminal to reinstall urxvt). I didn't notice any missing characters, but if there are, you can probably modify the lookup tables in the source code of the terminal emulators to fix that.
19:55:45 <myname> my favourite thing related to the turkish I is the php bug that made it nearly unusable in turkish locales
19:55:46 <b_jonas> In particular, I do have the DEC technical snowman.
19:56:18 <int-e> `unidecode 🤑
19:56:20 <HackEso> ​[U+1F911 MONEY-MOUTH FACE]
19:56:32 <int-e> what a great description.
19:56:46 <arseniiv> hopefully it either renders on your side with a good font or doesn’t at all. At my side it’s quite terrifying black-white. In Telegram it was way nicer
19:56:54 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah
19:57:15 <int-e> I should've realized that it's "MONEY"
19:58:29 <myname> basically, what php did was to lowercase every class and interface name for classloading purposes. even the included ones. this results in "class Foo implements Iterator" to try loading ıterator which it fails to find
19:58:37 <zzo38> Some of the characters are not even in Unicode, so I want to convert internally to UTCS instead, which does include all of the characters in all DEC terminals, Atari, Apple, Commodore, Infocom, PC, etc.
19:59:23 <zzo38> Here is so far my specification:  http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce
19:59:54 <zzo38> Another thing I like about xterm is it uses bitmap fonts, so they aren't fuzzy
20:03:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I am typing in an urxvt with my bitmap font right now (except some characters that are in neither of the two fonts I've chosen, like some emojis, might use vector fonts as a substitute, but these don't come up much on #esoteric )
20:08:31 <arseniiv> but these don't come up much on #esoteric => 🤔
20:09:19 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that appears as just a double-width box, so no problem
20:10:21 <zzo38> On my computer it appears as a single-width box.
20:12:41 <arseniiv> lol
20:13:21 <arseniiv> personally I don’t intend to use emoji on IRC as my client/OS is bad at them
20:13:52 <arseniiv> and also input
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22:19:47 <b_jonas> `ftoc 86
22:19:49 <HackEso> 86.00°F = 30.00°C
22:22:27 <b_jonas> `ctof 41
22:22:27 <HackEso> 41.00°C = 105.80°F
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04:05:43 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74278&oldid=74139 * Bigyihsuan * (+840) v1.4.0 release
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05:32:14 <zzo38> Do you think the graphical effects in TeXnicard are sufficient? In addition to all of the graphical effects of level 3 PostScript, it also supports alpha transparency, combining modes (min or max), a layer buffer (with eight monochrome layers used for controlling the areas of certain effects), a compositing buffer, and custom compositing modes (definable as arbitrary functions of three inputs).
05:33:55 <zzo38> Also the custom compositing modes actually can have two outputs, one being the normal output and the second output used for saturation adjustment. Furthermore, you can define up to four separations in addition to CMYK (for a total of eight).
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07:47:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that serious (like one of these stupid mobile phones where you can't install sane software) or is it ironic like when windows 10 users complain that their OS is bad at emoji?
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07:48:38 <b_jonas> you can always just make HackEso say the emojis for you
07:50:05 <b_jonas> I mean, if you can run an IRC client, you can probably copy-paste characters from a webpage too, unless it's some really crazy apple phone version
07:54:17 <arseniiv> b_jonas: more or less. Win7 has no capability to make composite fonts AFAIK, so I can’t make a font to include colorful emoji, and maybe of the kind I like more of them all, and also include other fancy unicode stuff and readable latin, cyrillic and greek. I heard Win10 has composite font support but I’m reluctant to upgrade still
07:55:17 <arseniiv> I don’t want to search in all places all the stuff I’ll need to switch off in Win10 and another stuff to make it more like Win7 in a couple of details and UI
07:55:39 <arseniiv> if it would magically set up this way I’d upgrade
07:57:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: doesn't it still run libraries like Pango that automatically substitute fonts in your browser?
07:57:36 <arseniiv> about input, you’re right, and I even may add to my AutoHotkey script, though it would need to be autogenerated and it wouldn’t be that useful without search
07:58:18 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yes, it should be able, though I didn’t test what does Firefox use in Win7
07:58:34 <arseniiv> but I don’t like web clients
07:59:32 <arseniiv> they aren’t usually the most UX-y kind
07:59:47 <b_jonas> yes, I know
07:59:55 <b_jonas> (someone should write a sane one)
08:00:16 <b_jonas> (but the hard part is to run the server)
08:00:47 <b_jonas> anyway, why am I asking this? I don't want people to use emojis in IRC
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08:06:55 <Lykaina> hi
08:07:20 <Lykaina> i hate power outages
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08:11:58 <Lykaina> anyone here?
08:33:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74279&oldid=61421 * Chris Pressey * (+552) Add a very strong version of what ais523 said, and also a completely alternative viewpoint.
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08:46:54 <cpressey> hi Lykaina
08:47:43 <cpressey> I am trying very hard not to be here
09:05:44 <rain1> yo!
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09:09:42 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74280&oldid=74241 * Chris Pressey * (+293) Some clarification after discussion with arseniiv (but probably not enough, yet).
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09:11:16 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I am trying very hard not to be here => :D
09:11:53 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> anyway, why am I asking this? I don't want people to use emojis in IRC => I was wondering too
09:35:04 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74281&oldid=74280 * Chris Pressey * (+441) Describe two possible modes for handling nondeterminism.
09:56:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74282 * Chris Pressey * (+1669) Sketch a Tandem interpreter.
09:57:55 <cpressey> arseniiv: Maybe https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tandem/Sketch_of_a_Tandem_Interpreter will help clarify things?
10:04:10 <cpressey> I called that "pseudo-code" but it should really be runnable if all the helper functions were defined.
10:07:39 <arseniiv> cpressey: oh! BTW did you see my yesterday’s implementation?
10:12:18 <arseniiv> this pseudocode is way simpler than what I’ve done with disjointness checking :D
10:13:30 <arseniiv> ah, no, I now see `case intersect (labelsOf r1) (labelsOf r2) of`
10:14:07 <cpressey> arseniiv: No, I missed that -- I don't always read the logs.  Actually I'm reading the logs now and I can't seem to find it?
10:14:31 <arseniiv> but your sketch doesn’t allow R | R = R
10:14:39 <arseniiv> I’ll find the link
10:15:07 <arseniiv> here it is: https://hatebin.com/gnbvdqgvrh
10:15:38 <arseniiv> though I should find the place in the logs, there was something else
10:15:44 <cpressey> Cool, thanks!
10:17:51 <arseniiv> starts here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-06-22.html#lId ← there is a error in the push-down automaton example at esowiki
10:19:45 <cpressey> Argh yes, I see. Thanks for spotting that, I'll fix it.
10:20:48 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74283&oldid=74281 * Chris Pressey * (+0) /* Implementing Automata in Tandem */ Fix PDA example - thanks go to arseniiv for noticing and reporting
10:21:13 <arseniiv> yw!
10:23:46 <cpressey> As to R | R = R, you're right, my sketch fails to get that, thanks again. I'll think about how to fix it.
10:25:33 <arseniiv> I used a “world diff”, all replacements which were made by the rule, and tested their disjointness
10:26:06 <arseniiv> though I think I should have simplified things a bit
10:26:49 <arseniiv> in my code there are two different representations now I think for the same thing (such a diff and a set of redexes)
10:27:07 <arseniiv> hm wait they aren’t even redexes, they are (label, replacement result) pairs
10:27:26 <arseniiv> I’ll need to rename things a bit too, then
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10:43:03 <cpressey> <b_jonas> cpressey: that is not easy though. if the language doesn't fail on any of the trivial tests [...] then it's hard to prove that the language is not Turing-complete <== Such a trivial test is exactly what I was talking about though
10:45:01 <cpressey> One problem with "read a string of any length on the input and accept iff it's a palindrome" is that many esolangs don't have input
11:03:22 <cpressey> Many do have some form of output though, and for those maybe an enumeration problem would work.
11:05:07 <cpressey> There is a single Turing machine that writes each of the prime numbers on its output tape.  It never halts: it is always the case that, some finite time after it has written a number, it will write another, larger number.
11:05:41 <cpressey> If you can't write a program that does this in your language, then your language is not Turing-complete.
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11:09:52 <cpressey> Even simpler: there is a TM that writes every integer onto its output tape, in binary: 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, ...
11:14:04 <t20kdc> ...so... WebAssembly is not Turing-complete?
11:15:33 <cpressey> I don't know WebAssembly but, probably not, no.
11:16:54 <cpressey> If a language can only address a fixed amount of memory, it's not Turing-complete.
11:17:26 <t20kdc> it kinda sounds like there needs to be some sort of "good enough" rating - like a more realized set of requirements for the classification of bounded-storage-machine
11:17:57 <t20kdc> ("boolfuck with at least 256 cells" for example)
11:18:26 <t20kdc> the problem is, then the requirement becomes a bit arbitrary, but... the alternatives make provability a little hard
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11:32:57 <cpressey> t20kdc: The phrase "usable for programming" is sometimes used in the esolang community, but as concepts go it is very informal.
11:35:09 <cpressey> The complement, "unusable for programming", might be less contentious, since there is actually an "Unusable for programming" category on the wiki.
11:35:11 <Arcorann> Obviously for real-world languages to be Turing-complete they need to run in an idealised environment
11:35:59 <Arcorann> I don't know enough about WebAssembly to know what t20kdc was referring to in that comment, some clarification would be appreciated
11:36:04 <cpressey> Not sure what that means. Python is Turing-complete even if no one ever runs a Python program ever.
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11:36:21 <t20kdc> Arcorann: To summarize: Pointer size.
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11:44:44 <Arcorann> What I was trying to say was that if WebAssembly was modified to allow arbitrary addressing of memory (abstracting the restriction away) then it would become Turing-complete, but this isn't necessary for real-world programming
11:46:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Vera98x *  New user account
11:50:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74284&oldid=74209 * Vera98x * (+118) 
11:51:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74285&oldid=74284 * Vera98x * (-22) 
11:53:46 <cpressey> A variant of WebAssembly which does not limit the number of bits that can appear in a pointer at runtime is probably Turing-complete, yes.
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12:11:44 <esowiki> [[VES++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74286 * Vera98x * (+1506) Created page with "VES++ has included the most common languages from west-europe (and for some random reason the turkish language is also included). This way many people are able to understand a..."
12:16:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74287&oldid=74253 * Vera98x * (+12) 
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12:49:22 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey I simplified my impl at https://hatebin.com/gzvnokaiqj
12:49:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:12:15 <esowiki> [[VES++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74289&oldid=74286 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) 
13:18:33 <cpressey> arseniiv: cool.  lambdabot didn't notify me.  had to read it in the log :)
13:18:55 <cpressey> Oh NOW it did. Because I mentioned its name?
13:25:01 <arseniiv> hmmm
13:25:08 <arseniiv> I’m usually not notified too
13:25:13 <arseniiv> int-e is that normal?
13:26:09 <esowiki> [[VES++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74290&oldid=74289 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+530) 
13:27:00 <cpressey> It notified me yesterday without me mentioning its name
13:30:13 <esowiki> [[VES++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74291&oldid=74290 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) /* Hello World */
13:31:16 <arseniiv> I remember being notified once or twice but don’t think I know the reason it was so
13:31:32 <esowiki> [[Robolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74292&oldid=69237 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Commands */ you missed one
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13:39:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:0x29A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74295&oldid=8312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) unsigned
13:44:24 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74296&oldid=71121 * Chris Pressey * (+114) Ruthlessly edit the first section.
13:45:22 <esowiki> [[Object disoriented Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74297&oldid=31645 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) cat
13:46:57 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74298&oldid=74296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
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13:55:00 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74300&oldid=74282 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) 
13:56:34 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74301&oldid=60707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Algorithm */
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14:19:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74303&oldid=74045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Derivatives */
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14:26:10 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74304&oldid=74298 * Chris Pressey * (+327) More ruthless editing.
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14:31:40 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74306&oldid=73317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) 
14:33:52 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74307&oldid=74304 * Chris Pressey * (+105) Example code in triples; rephrase
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14:53:33 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74310&oldid=74307 * Chris Pressey * (+180) De-sugar "Hello, world!" example.
15:06:07 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74311&oldid=74310 * Chris Pressey * (-1307) Remove sugar unneeded for example. Move implementation links to external resources.
15:07:28 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74312&oldid=74311 * Chris Pressey * (+0) /* External resources */ Fix nested list
15:10:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74313&oldid=74305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* Commands */
15:13:20 <esowiki> [[Ttyped]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74314&oldid=46812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+159) 
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15:15:55 <esowiki> [[Billiards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74319&oldid=50919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+132) cats
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15:17:42 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74321&oldid=74312 * Chris Pressey * (+948) Sketch Turing-completeness proof (using Minsky machines). Happy for someone to fill in more details here.
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16:58:28 <esowiki> [[RELATIONS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74329&oldid=74328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-26) wikify + unpipe
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17:07:12 <esowiki> [[Kate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74331&oldid=59906 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+193) unpipe,wikify,cats
17:07:34 <esowiki> [[OREO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74332&oldid=74330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello World program */ cat
17:10:03 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74333&oldid=71472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
17:10:39 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74334&oldid=71409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* See Also */
17:17:16 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74335&oldid=66712 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) wikify + cats
17:23:20 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74336&oldid=74335 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
17:23:31 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74337&oldid=74336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* FizzBuzz program */
17:31:14 <esowiki> [[RANDo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74338&oldid=57219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+422) 
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17:37:04 <esowiki> [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74340&oldid=46029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) cats+wip
17:46:17 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74341&oldid=62270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) 
17:46:34 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74342&oldid=74341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) 
17:48:43 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74343&oldid=71669 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Computational class */ cat
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18:00:23 <esowiki> [[J.A.V.A.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74345&oldid=55931 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) 
18:04:41 <int-e> normal, mhmm
18:06:41 <int-e> arseniiv: you shouldn't have to mention it by name, but you have to say something on a channel it's in
18:06:57 <int-e> (or, maybe, message it privately? dunno.)
18:10:19 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I usually ask lambdabot @messages, though if I wouldn’t need to send it each time (as I thought) it would be very nice! Now that you said I just need to say hi here, that’s way better
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18:51:09 <b_jonas> @messages-louder
18:51:09 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
19:04:22 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74346&oldid=74270 * Dion * (+35) 
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19:04:56 <esowiki> [[MAWP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74347&oldid=74346 * Dion * (+63) 
19:12:17 <rain1> @messages-louder
19:12:17 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
19:12:43 <arseniiv> how would you approach the following?: for a positive integer n, find a pair of positive integers a, b such that n = a^2 b and b is square-free?
19:13:48 <rain1> I think there will not be that many possible values of a so I would check a=1,2,..,floor(sqrt(n))
19:14:13 <rain1> is that the right way?
19:14:27 <kspalaiologos> I've got a concern today about implementing stack-based effective values for asm2bf
19:14:33 <arseniiv> (the author of that constructible number Python module uses this for economy of future computations, I think: adding √b should be better than adding √n)
19:14:52 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_of_an_integer I found this
19:14:54 <kspalaiologos> it is as follows - the stack internally looks like 0 5 1 6 1 7 1 [0]... when there are 5, 6 and 7 pushed
19:15:10 <kspalaiologos> now, how to extract the nth element from the end from this data structure
19:15:30 <kspalaiologos> hopefully without relying on more than two zero cells after the stack end
19:15:55 <rain1> > Currently, no feasible (polynomial time) algorithm is known for recognizing squarefree integers or for computing the squarefree part of an integer. In fact it may be the case that this problem is no easier than the general problem of integer factorization.
19:15:57 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:16:10 <arseniiv> rain1: something like that is written but there is a todo try better. I suggested precomputing decompositions for a bunch of small n’s but I have no idea if it’s actually useful
19:16:11 <kspalaiologos> if N is known at compile time, that's easy, but this problem has been troubling me for some time now with variable arguments
19:17:26 <rain1> i suppose if you have a list of 100 primes, you can pull the square part of those primes off 
19:17:44 <rain1> and then if you have anything left use a slower algorithm for it, but you can start after prime 100
19:18:03 <rain1> give p it's fast to find the biggest r, p^r | n i think
19:18:05 <arseniiv> rain1: w-wait I think b from that decomposition doesn’t relate anyhow directly to the radical?
19:18:46 <rain1> N = a^2 b,  b = N/a^2 = rad(N)  doesn't it?
19:19:02 <arseniiv> for example rad (4 ⋅ 9) = 6 but b = 1
19:20:30 <rain1> oh shit
19:20:50 <arseniiv> and it seems b shouldn’t give us any hints how to compute rad?.. We have rad n = lcm(rad a, b) though if I’m not mistaken
19:21:24 <arseniiv> as we definitely have rad b = b, yes
19:25:01 <zzo38> Due to something I was working on (Digi-RGB), there is the need to compute the square root and squarefree core in O(n) time, although the squarefree core is known to be one of four possibilities, and the input number is known to be less than an implementation-defined maximum.
19:26:05 <rain1> what are the four possibilites?
19:26:07 <zzo38> Additionally, if it is possible to do, the computation may begin before the input number is known.
19:26:37 <zzo38> rain1: The four possibilities are 1, 3, 5, and 10.
19:26:43 <rain1> OK!
19:27:55 <arseniiv> rain1: the radical page though gave me a hint I should look for a square-free part. I even found something, let’s see…
19:28:23 <arseniiv> zzo38 already named that though, while I searched
19:28:37 <rain1> I suppose the radical helps you find the square-part very fast
19:28:56 <rain1> via gcd(rad^(2r), n)
19:33:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: getting the square part of a number? hmm... that's either easy or hard, but I can't remember which. I should look it up.
19:35:04 <arseniiv> “No algorithm is known for computing any of these square-free factors which is faster than computing the complete prime factorization. In particular, there is no known polynomial-time algorithm for computing the square-free part of an integer, nor even for determining whether an integer is square-free.[1]” <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-free_integer> where [1] = Adleman, Leonard M.; Mccurley, Kevin S. "Open Problems in Number Theoretic Compl
19:35:04 <arseniiv> exity, II". Lecture Notes in Computer Science: 9
19:36:49 <zzo38> (Note in Digi-RGB, the input number will effectively be given in unary, and you may read it up to twice.)
19:40:47 <arseniiv> OEIS gives funny a(n) = rad n / a(n / rad n) for the squarefree part
19:43:53 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, then I don't have to look it up
19:44:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: note that there is an algorithm to find the squarefree part of a polynomial IIRC
19:45:02 <b_jonas> you can of course always try a full prime decomposition, that tends to work well for non-large numbers
19:45:11 <b_jonas> there are decent implementations for it
19:47:49 <b_jonas> and if you have a part that you can't factorize, check if it's a square, in which case you know the answer
19:50:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is searching for integer square root of an exact square faster than trying to decompose it without checking if it’s a square?
19:50:38 <int-e> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/16098/complexity-of-testing-integer-square-freeness has some rather discouraging things to say about this
19:50:39 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74348&oldid=74323 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* 110010000100110110010 */
19:51:16 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74349&oldid=74204 * Geek Joystick * (+1) /* Implementations */
19:51:29 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74350&oldid=74349 * Geek Joystick * (-1) /* Implementations */
19:53:02 <zzo38> Actually there are other restrictions in the case of Digi-RGB too, for example, it is known that the input number will always be a multiple of four.
19:56:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, taking square root of an integer is very fast
19:57:17 <b_jonas> so yes, if you think your number is likely square, you can try that first before trying to decompose it
19:58:12 <zzo38> What reasons do you have to needing to compure squarefree cores?
20:01:29 <arseniiv> zzo38: in the algorithm for taking sqrt of constructible numbers, one frequently needs to know if a rational number is a perfect square (and what’s its square root), but there would be slightly less computations afterwards if one instead asks about this decomposition
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20:23:17 <rain1> isn't it easy to check for a square though?
20:26:15 <zzo38> I don't know. I believe it can be computed in O(n) though, since you can start counting 1, and then count 3 more, count 5 more, count 7 more, count 9 more, etc.
20:26:27 <zzo38> I don't know about O(1), though.
20:26:46 <int-e> rain1: what if the square is multiplied by 2038074743?
20:55:33 <esowiki> [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74351&oldid=71279 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1115) implementer
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21:11:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74353&oldid=74352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* One-time cat program */
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03:09:28 <int-e> fungot: Hello Dear Very Confidential
03:09:28 <fungot> int-e: he's a reddit troll/ chatterbot? why?)
03:09:41 <int-e> fungot: close, it's a subject from a spam mail
03:09:41 <fungot> int-e: do you follow? map requires a list. the second fastest way to show your scifi fnord witness or mormon or something? though they
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03:17:40 <shachaf> int-e: I tried for a while to figure out what "Observed:" means on that website.
03:18:12 <shachaf> Eventually I looked at the German word, Beobachtet, and I guess it means a person who's "watching" your puzzle or something.
03:18:15 <int-e> huh, context?
03:18:29 <shachaf> https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Raetsel/zeigen.php?chlang=en&id=0003NX
03:18:56 <shachaf> (Only because you were commenting on something related to that website's URLs the other day.)
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03:22:55 <int-e> shachaf: This is more about grammar (-ing vs. -ed), isn't it?
03:23:11 <shachaf> I guess so.
03:23:28 <int-e> Anyway, I don't find "beobachtet" any clearer than the english translation
03:23:32 <shachaf> At first I thought it was page views, and then I thought it was something like a person recording themselves solving a puzzle so you can be sure they weren't cheating, or something.
03:23:52 <shachaf> Anyway maybe it's just confusilating.
03:27:55 <int-e> . o O ( they also translated "views" as "Ansichten" which I would usually interpret as "view" in the sense of a personal interpretation of something.
03:27:58 <int-e> )
03:28:02 <int-e> (In the forum.)
03:28:54 <int-e> But I'm struggling to find a good word fort *that*.
03:29:04 <int-e> -t
03:30:06 <int-e> I guess "Abrufe" is the established term, even though it's technical (focussing on requests rather than the fact that they're usually displayed somewhere)
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03:31:47 <shachaf> How should this library support a whole bunch of data types?
03:32:31 <shachaf> Say int x; OPT_INT(&x), int64_t x; OPT_INT64(&x); and so on with UINT64, unsigned long, etc.
03:32:47 <shachaf> Maybe it should take a scanf-style format string or something and let scanf do the work?
03:33:57 <int-e> https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Suche/erweitert.php clarifies. It has the option to search for puzzles that are observed/watched ("beobachtet") by more than a given number of people. No clue what that does though... notify you of new solvers?
03:34:11 <int-e> Obviously I will not register just to find out.
03:34:51 <shachaf> It suppots all of < <= = >= =
03:34:53 <shachaf> Very thorough.
03:35:11 <shachaf> It's good that they have both strict and nonstrict inequality, since the number of solvers is real.
03:36:38 <int-e> I'm missing a negation
03:37:04 <int-e> I also like that = is the default
03:37:30 <shachaf> You should solve my puzzles and then register in order to rate it at 120% goodness points.
03:37:39 <int-e> Hmm, "toroidal". Toroidal Hashiwokakero could be confusing.
03:37:39 <shachaf> I imagine you're really into laboriously solving sudoku puzzles by hand.
03:38:17 <int-e> No.
03:38:45 <int-e> I find Sudokus hard in an unsatisfying way. There's too much information to track for my small brain; I'm more of a fan of visual patterns.
03:40:12 <shachaf> I was secretly imagining something more along those lines.
03:41:12 <int-e> I can't look at a Sudoku and just see all the 1s (or whatever digit); I have to painstakingly scan all squares to find them.
03:41:23 <shachaf> Oh man. The actual way you're supposed to tell whether sscanf matched the entire input string is with %n?
03:41:25 <int-e> And finding missing numbers is worse.
03:41:39 <shachaf> So much for the scanf idea.
03:41:56 <int-e> I believe so, yes. sscanf is a bit of a pain.
03:42:04 <shachaf> So much for that.
03:42:46 <shachaf> Maybe I should just support intmax_t and call it a day.
03:42:53 <shachaf> Or: Support nothing and call it a day.
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03:59:29 <shachaf> Here's a problem: 7 people solved my puzzle, so I'm pretty sure it's solvable. But I (and a person who wrote up their reasoning) is stuck on how to make a particular inference.
03:59:36 <shachaf> s/is/am/
03:59:49 <shachaf> (Or something, that grammatical situation is obviously impossible to deal with correctly.)
04:00:11 <shachaf> I want to submit the puzzle to be solved by people but I don't know what to do about this one step.
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04:02:52 <int-e> ... just nope.
04:03:58 <shachaf> My SAT solver tells me it's true, so who needs anything else?
04:15:57 <shachaf> Is it guaranteed in Linux that getauxval(AT_EXECFN) will exist and have some string value?
04:22:06 <int-e> shachaf: you may break tools like valgrind
04:22:36 <int-e> (though by the looks of it, that sets AT_EXECFN, but to argv[0] rather than the full path?)
04:23:36 <shachaf> AT_EXECFN is already a relative path.
04:23:58 <shachaf> I want an alternative to argv[0] that's reliable, since argv[0] can just be a null pointer.
04:24:32 <int-e> LD_SHOW_AUXV=1 valgrind sleep 1 2>/dev/null --> [...] AT_EXECFN:            sleep [...]
04:25:25 <shachaf> Oh, it shows an absolute path without valgrind in that case, interesting.
04:25:29 <zzo38> Why does the Wikipedia article about printing registration have a "see also" link that links to the Japanese wikipedia?
04:25:56 <shachaf> `` cd /bin; LD_SHOW_AUXV=1 ./sleep 0 | grep EXECFN
04:25:56 <HackEso> AT_EXECFN:       ./sleep
04:26:00 <shachaf> `` LD_SHOW_AUXV=1 sleep 0 | grep EXECFN
04:26:02 <HackEso> AT_EXECFN:       /bin/sleep
04:26:33 <shachaf> I guess this is the first argument to execve.
04:27:34 <int-e> or execvp? that might explain the lack of path lookup
04:27:52 <shachaf> I mean, in the non-valgrind case.
04:28:06 <shachaf> It's populated by the kernel so I imagine it's based on execve.
04:31:30 <shachaf> Is it just me or did glibc printf use to be able to handle null %s and now it doesn't?
04:32:30 <int-e> dunno? it does print (null) here
04:32:31 <shachaf> `cc #include <stdio.h>\n int main() { printf("%s", (char *)0); }
04:32:32 <HackEso> ​(null)
04:32:53 <int-e> uh
04:33:13 <int-e> scratch that, it actually segfaults
04:33:33 <shachaf> It segfaults here too.
04:33:38 <shachaf> I guess they changed it at one point.
04:34:24 <int-e> printf("%s %d\n", (char *)0, 42); works fine?
04:34:42 <int-e> Ah.
04:34:44 <int-e> This is gcc.
04:34:58 <int-e> gcc optimizes printf("%s\n", ...) to puts.
04:35:02 <shachaf> Aha!
04:35:20 <shachaf> Now that you mention it I think I've noticed this before a trillion years ago and forgot about it.
04:35:48 <shachaf> Good thing printfing a null pointer is undefined behavior so this is fine.
05:05:42 <Sgeo> https://www.wothke.ch/blaster/
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08:12:44 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74356&oldid=74283 * Chris Pressey * (+586) It's not a Kleene algebra. It might still be a semiring.
08:19:57 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74357&oldid=74356 * Chris Pressey * (-230) Make raw markup nicer to read, partially
08:26:15 <ArthurStrong> Integer factorization using regex (with backreferences) https://yurichev.com/news/20200624_factorize_regex/
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08:37:07 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74358&oldid=74357 * Chris Pressey * (-431) More of making raw markup nicer to read
08:41:34 <rain1> brilliant
08:47:21 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74359&oldid=74358 * Chris Pressey * (+224) /* Algebraic properties */ Note how this will need to be fixed, even if only a semiring. Thanks to arseniiv for noticing.
08:47:40 <imode> do it in thue.
08:49:40 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74360&oldid=74359 * Chris Pressey * (+30) /* Algebraic properties */ Formatting
08:49:55 <imode> if you built a decently-sized tech stack on top of thue, hotswapping code would be a breeze.
08:52:34 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74361&oldid=74360 * Chris Pressey * (+44) /* Algebraic properties */ The single-asteration property is more than a conjecture; the TM example shows it.
08:55:16 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74362&oldid=74361 * Chris Pressey * (+88) /* Algebraic properties */ Clarify
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11:14:39 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74363&oldid=74362 * Chris Pressey * (+81) /* Algebraic properties */ Attempt to fix the situation by stipulating that 1 & 1 = 1.
11:26:55 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74364&oldid=74363 * Chris Pressey * (+216) /* Algebraic properties */ Add informal justification.
11:29:23 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74365&oldid=74364 * Chris Pressey * (+104) /* Notes on Asteration */ Diction and markup
11:30:19 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74366&oldid=74365 * Chris Pressey * (+25) /* Notes on Asteration */ qualify
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11:45:48 <cpressey> RX->Y & (Q0->1 | Q3->4) == (RX->Y | Q0->1) & (RX->Y | Q3-4), but L(RX->Y | Q0->1) is not disjoint with L(RX->Y | Q3-4) so this == 0
11:46:11 <cpressey> So this disjointness rule needs to be reformed in a fairly deep way
11:48:34 <cpressey> It's like & induces something that is dual to the non-determinism that | induces
11:49:22 <cpressey> Multiple options for rewriting -> non-determinism, versus conflicting options for rewriting -> impossibility
11:52:30 <cpressey> (Q0->1 | Q0->2) versus (Q0->1 & Q0->2).  We have to start looking at the RHS.  We can't just use L(), we need to look at the set of redexes.
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11:54:15 <arseniiv> how did it end up tata, tada, data and dada all mean different things
11:56:26 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: data is an ordinary noun, dada is some modern art style -- trust modern artists to come up with stupid names, tata is a road vehicle brand name -- those all want short snappy brand names that they can write on the vehicle in a way that's easy to read from afar
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11:58:18 <arseniiv> tata is a road vehicle brand name -- those all want short snappy brand names that they can write on the vehicle in a way that's easy to read from afar => I meant the “bye” thing, didn’t know about this
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11:59:00 <arseniiv> (though mainly that question was for lambdabot; though I should have mentioned fungot in it to make a combo)
11:59:00 <fungot> arseniiv: i'll make some tc later... in a sense
11:59:47 <wib_jonas> well, it's more complicated, obviously Tata is multiple things => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata
12:00:52 <wib_jonas> the trucks are just what it reminded me at first
12:04:47 <cpressey> arseniiv: As you pointed out, the algebra in Tandem is broken. I'm going to try to fix it. Since you're the only person who's implemented it, I'd welcome your feedback on this. (I've updated the article but the small change I've made so far does not go far enough.)
12:05:35 <cpressey> I could try to fix it by making a large change to the language, but that feels unfair to the existing implementation :)
12:06:08 <cpressey> (The large change I have in mind also does not really fit with the name "Tandem" anymore.)
12:06:13 <wib_jonas> shachaf: UI translations => there are graphical email+calendar programs where a UI label says "From:" before the sender of an email and also before the start time of a calendar event. And then the people who write UI localization tables have to figure out what to put there, or how to get their bug report to disunify or disambiguate those
12:06:13 <wib_jonas> translatable texts through.
12:06:28 <arseniiv> cpressey: would it mend if we consider lα → α making no change to l?
12:07:54 <wib_jonas> Luckily I haven't seen this for a while. Somehow for this job, I managed to acquire a desktop installation with no UI programs appearing in Hungarian. Not even MS Office, which is quite a miracle, because it's not as easy to change its UI language as for the rest of windows.
12:08:18 <wib_jonas> Of course for Firefox I have to figure out how to switch its UI back to English once every two years, because they keep changing it.
12:09:17 <cpressey> Well, lα → α already doesn't make a change?  (But it is considered to succeed in matching and replacing. Would it make sense to change it to be considered a failure?)
12:09:28 <cpressey> (gtg lunch, will read log.)
12:09:30 <wib_jonas> Firefox current solution => https://superuser.com/questions/488141/h/572027#572027
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12:11:27 <wib_jonas> Of course now I don't have a Hungarian spell-checker in MS Office, but that's a worthy sacrifice
12:15:32 <wib_jonas> "<shachaf> It suppots all of < <= = >= =" equal twice? yes, that's very throrough
12:22:56 <Arcorann> http://ucsx.org/ <-- after all those discussions of how to extend Unicode a few days ago, I found someone who made a proposal on how to extend Unicode's space arbitrarily
12:22:58 <wib_jonas> Fixed. Now I even have a Hungarian spellchecker.
12:26:10 <wib_jonas> Arcorann: nice. also, oh yeah, "ISO 10646", that's what they call the unicode-related standard, probably as a pun on "ISO 646" 
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12:30:36 <wib_jonas> Arcorann: thanks for the link. ais523: ^
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12:52:18 <arseniiv> <cpressey> Well, lα → α already doesn't make a change?  (But it is considered to succeed in matching and replacing. Would it make sense to change it to be considered a failure?) => I’d then separate matching success from the set of all changes made so this could both succeed and do no changes, but I’m afraid that too could be too much for algebraic properties, I hope it isn’t
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13:00:37 <arseniiv> now I think I nailed one of uncomfortable things about great many fonts: their glyph for ∞ is too small
13:01:26 <arseniiv> something with relative size almost like in TeX is more nice
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13:08:13 <kspalaiologos> I've added many things to asm2bf since the last time I was here
13:08:18 <kspalaiologos> ` ls
13:08:19 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
13:08:21 <kspalaiologos> `ls
13:08:21 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
13:08:23 <kspalaiologos> is hack eso gone?
13:08:59 <kspalaiologos> no, just laggy as usual, ok
13:11:33 <kspalaiologos> so, all in all, I added data labels, r5 and r6 are stable and tested, the codebase is 95% C, conditional pipelines, advanced conditional instructions (c[log op][rel op]), flag register, effective adresses, virtual instruction calls, constant preprocessor for redefining symbols, long instruction names, bit operations, snippet optimizations, error messages, bfi decimal flags, rewritten bfmake in Perl, effective adresss and stack based adressing. 
13:11:33 <kspalaiologos> I also added the incunabulum to the repository
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13:12:07 <kspalaiologos> all in all - I think so far it's amazing
13:13:58 <kspalaiologos> so for example a modern hello world looks like this: &string / txt "Hello World!" / @puts / movf r2, *string(r1, r0, 1) / cne r2, 0 / cout r2 / cadd r1, 1 / cjnz %puts / out 10
13:14:42 <kspalaiologos> I haven't been updating the esolangs wiki page for a very long time, because I'm writing a developers journal about asm2bf and I plan to include all the documentation in there
13:15:18 <wib_jonas> so you'll link that from the wiki article?
13:15:29 <kspalaiologos> yes
13:15:38 <kspalaiologos> I plan on removing all the content and just linking to it
13:15:57 <kspalaiologos> because it has a lot of latex-specific stuff and a lot of figures, I think it's not feasible to store it on esolangs wiki
13:16:14 <kspalaiologos> and, that may sound ridicously, but asm2bf is slowly becoming a non-esolang
13:17:39 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: especially since you have an interpreter for it that skips the whole historically motivated brainfuck phase. you might just turn it to an ordinary interpreted toy language
13:18:04 <kspalaiologos> I really like the architecture though
13:18:09 <wib_jonas> (or compiled if you add an x86_64 backend too)
13:18:18 <kspalaiologos> brainfuck has helped me innovate assembly a bit, how stupid it may sound
13:18:59 <kspalaiologos> sadly no one is interested in abstracting brianfuck, so I'm a lone developer
13:22:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74371&oldid=74370 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) /* Snippets */
13:23:40 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: sure, a lot of toy languages have motivations, even if it's not too recognizable from the toy language then
13:27:36 <wib_jonas> eg. komalpsz was directly motivated by pre-written programs that I wanted to try to run, scan and geo were motivated by a programming course where I was supposed to write a parser as one of the requirements, olvashato was supposed to help write homework where we had to submit a solution for the same task implemented in two different languages,
13:27:37 <wib_jonas> Amicus is an educational language where the motivation was to define Hyperamicus, etc
13:29:00 <cpressey> <arseniiv> I’d then separate matching success from the set of all changes made so this could both succeed and do no changes <= lα → α already does succeed and make no changes though?  (when l contains α, I mean; if it contains something else, it fails to match and makes no changes (because failing to match never makes a change))
13:30:14 <cpressey> iow I think they're already seperate: you can match and change, match and not change, or not match and not change
13:34:05 <cpressey> arseniiv: It may help to step back. My original intent was that the rules form a Kleene algebra. The meaning for & doesn't work for that (and seems deeply broken too). A simple solution would be to make R1 & R2 mean "Apply R1 then apply R2", i.e. sequencing. Then most of the problems go away. The main problems that remain are: (a) the language should no longer be called "Tandem", and (b) you might not want
13:34:07 <cpressey> to alter your interpreter that much :)
13:35:09 <cpressey> There is a partial solution to that too though: make a new language, with a different name, where it's a Kleene algebra, and leave Tandem close to as it currently is but fix it by some small patch somehow, so that it at least forms something sensible, like a semiring.
13:37:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74372&oldid=74371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) /* Memory */
13:39:32 <arseniiv> <cpressey> lα → α already does succeed and make no changes though?  (when l contains α, I mean; if it contains something else, it fails to match and makes no changes (because failing to match never makes a change)) => yeah but my impl treats it as a change to make some part of the original definition work, I already forgot which one
13:41:25 <arseniiv> one alteration would be to compute world diffs after applying the rule (so lα → α effects would be nil) but determine if the application was succesful not based on whether the diff is empty or not 
13:41:57 <arseniiv> I’m not sure what identities will survive this, though
13:43:08 <arseniiv> in a way, lα → α should be considered “blocking”, as it is in the current impl, but it won’t be so in this new one
13:44:01 <cpressey> I used Maybe in my sketch to capture whether it matched or not (Nothing indicates there was no match) - I didn't design it with the idea that you could infer that status just looking at the result of the rewriting
13:44:43 <arseniiv> though one could maybe add another rule, lα, which succeeds iff stack[l] = α (and lα…, which succeeds if α is a prefix of stack[l]), then we nicely differentiate blocking rules lα → α and non-blocking rules lα
13:45:36 <arseniiv> yeah it seems your sketch is closer to what I originally intended, hm
13:46:06 <arseniiv> (lα and lα… wouldn’t replace anything in ether case)
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14:05:24 <esowiki> [[TAPASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74375&oldid=74374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Example */ cat
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14:06:00 <esowiki> [[TAPASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74377&oldid=74376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Tape */
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14:43:15 <cpressey> arseniiv: Would you have any objection if I wanted to change Ri & Rj to mean "Apply Ri and, if successful, then apply Rj"?  & is no longer commutative, but (instead of imposing a disjointness condition) we can observe that *if* the sets of labels of Ri and Rj are disjoint, *then* Ri & Rj commutes.
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14:51:21 <arseniiv> cpressey: no, that’s cool
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15:02:45 <esowiki> [[110010000100110110010]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74384 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3731) Created page with "'''110010000100110110010''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Memory== 110010000100110110010 uses data (initialized to an right-unbounded infinite tap..."
15:03:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74385&oldid=74325 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Non-alphabetic */ + [[110010000100110110010]]
15:03:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74386&oldid=74326 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) /* Languages */
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15:16:47 <kspalaiologos> I really have no idea why my internet is so shit I reconnect every 30 minutes or so\
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15:16:56 <kspalaiologos> I wonder what does it say
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15:19:25 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74389&oldid=73006 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) 
15:21:08 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74390&oldid=57119 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Interpreter */ cat
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15:21:50 <cpressey> arseniiv: thanks, it's surprisingly undisruptive (none of the example programs need to change, for instance) and seems to make it a lot cleaner.
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15:28:28 <arseniiv> cpressey: okay I’ll make my impl compatible after a while then!
15:30:27 <esowiki> [[Three Star Programmer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74391&oldid=71623 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Variants */ golf further
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15:48:26 <esowiki> [[Category theory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74393&oldid=60667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Introduction */
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16:24:32 <esowiki> [[Clusterfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74397&oldid=31016 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Current (Unfinished) Implementation */
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17:19:55 <esowiki> [[Microjump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74398 * Emerald * (+134) Created page with "Microjump is a minimization of a [[Jumpmin|minimization]]. Details of current work are at [[Talk:Jumpmin]]. Extra help is appreciated."
17:21:26 <esowiki> [[Microjump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74399&oldid=74398 * Emerald * (+19) 
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18:19:02 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/What we could do if we could solve the halting problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74400 * Hakerh400 * (+11642) Created page with "In this article the author provides his opinion about the halting problem and what people could do if they find a way to solve in in finite time.  == What is the halting probl..."
18:19:23 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74401&oldid=74053 * Hakerh400 * (+131) 
18:22:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/What we could do if we could solve the halting problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74402&oldid=74400 * Hakerh400 * (+2) 
18:26:25 <t20kdc> ...summary of that... interesting page... so, to summarize, if we had a Haltino, literally any question expressable as a Turing machine could be solved via the same strategy as expressed by the hash thing, breaking all computable encryption.
18:27:05 <t20kdc> (so long as one at least knew enough about the plaintext to determine if some output is or is not likely the plaintext)
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19:41:11 <esowiki> [[No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74407&oldid=74190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* External resources */
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20:34:08 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74408&oldid=74278 * Bigyihsuan * (+2) /* A note on GETIDX, SETIDX, GETLIM, SETLIM */
20:34:51 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74409&oldid=74408 * Bigyihsuan * (+100) /* For-Loops */
20:35:18 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74410&oldid=74409 * Bigyihsuan * (-8) /* For-Loops */
20:39:52 <esowiki> [[Ni]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74411 * DeybisMelendez * (+2053) Created page with " Ni is an esoteric programming language influenced by Brainfuck. The name Ni comes from Nicaragua. Created by [[User:DeybisMelendez]].  == Language Overview == Ni operates wit..."
20:55:49 <esowiki> [[Ni]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74412&oldid=74411 * DeybisMelendez * (-38) 
21:05:16 <esowiki> [[Ni]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74413&oldid=74412 * DeybisMelendez * (-12) 
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21:07:09 <esowiki> [[Ni]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74414&oldid=74413 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+233) cats+!
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23:30:46 <imode> it's kinda neat how actually small a brainfuck interpreter in thue is. like it's on par with a C implementation.
23:34:35 <esowiki> [[Ni]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74416&oldid=74414 * RocketRace * (+37) Update categorization
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03:03:30 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74418&oldid=74417 * A * (+505) /* Whole language, done! */
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09:05:52 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74423&oldid=74366 * Chris Pressey * (+792) Major revamp. Change meaning of &. Rewrite much.
09:08:06 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74424&oldid=74300 * Chris Pressey * (+84) Add note
09:12:53 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74425&oldid=74424 * Chris Pressey * (-286) Update implementation sketch.
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09:35:13 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74426&oldid=74425 * Chris Pressey * (+391) Flesh out sketch to the point where it compiles.
09:35:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Chris Pressey *  moved [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]] to [[Tandem/Tandem.hs]]: It's no longer a sketch
09:38:14 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74429&oldid=74423 * Chris Pressey * (+112) +see also
09:39:42 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74430&oldid=74429 * Chris Pressey * (+3) /* Algebraic properties */ style, typo fixes
09:41:06 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74431&oldid=74430 * Chris Pressey * (+34) /* Algebraic properties */ rephrase
09:41:38 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74432&oldid=74431 * Chris Pressey * (+6) /* Algebraic properties */ add word for clarity
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10:23:49 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74433&oldid=74076 * DmilkaSTD * (+112) im just putting excuses to not make the compiler
10:25:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74434&oldid=70583 * DmilkaSTD * (+113) excuse me
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10:29:36 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74435&oldid=74318 * DmilkaSTD * (+14) who cares about me and lol turing machine isnt a language
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10:32:36 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74436&oldid=74435 * DmilkaSTD * (+147) stuff that i cant write here lol get rekt lmao
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10:34:13 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74437&oldid=73231 * DmilkaSTD * (+12) what are you doing here?
10:36:02 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74438&oldid=73114 * DmilkaSTD * (+30) Am I stupid?
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12:37:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74439&oldid=74434 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) 
12:38:16 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74440&oldid=74433 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) 
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12:57:54 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74441&oldid=74419 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Unofficial extension */
13:01:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74442&oldid=74383 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) 
13:03:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74443&oldid=74442 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* 1 */
13:05:30 <esowiki> [[Linear bounded automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74444&oldid=54311 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-37) /* External resources */
13:06:23 <arseniiv> how are you?
13:08:17 <esowiki> [[1mpr0mp2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74445&oldid=74222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) unpipe
13:11:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74446&oldid=74443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+332) /* Alcatraz */
13:12:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74447&oldid=74446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Linear-bounded brainfuck */
13:17:03 <cpressey> i am fine how are you
13:24:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74448&oldid=74447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1468) /* Linear-bounded brainfuck */
13:27:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74449&oldid=74448 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-146) /* Linear-bounded brainfuck */
13:28:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74450&oldid=74449 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1654) /* Alcatraz */
13:28:55 <esowiki> [[Linear bounded brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1652) Created page with "'''Linear-bounded brainfuck''' is [[brainfuck]] as a [[linear bounded automaton]], created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==The input-size function== The function of the..."
13:29:07 <esowiki> [[Linear bounded brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74452&oldid=74451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
13:30:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74453&oldid=74386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+206) /* Languages */
13:31:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74454&oldid=74453 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Languages */ lbb: code->math
13:31:32 <esowiki> [[Linear bounded brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74455&oldid=74452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
13:32:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74456&oldid=74421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* L */
13:35:57 <esowiki> [[KittyKittyMewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74457&oldid=68986 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+195) CATS +links
13:36:07 <esowiki> [[KittyKittyMewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74458&oldid=74457 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Python 3 */
13:37:02 <esowiki> [[Loose Circular Brainfuck (LCBF)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74459&oldid=33483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) 
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13:52:08 <esowiki> [[TroJavaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74460&oldid=62024 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) cats
13:56:20 <cpressey> arseniiv: I fixed Tandem btw
14:03:52 <esowiki> [[@]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74461&oldid=69865 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) 
14:07:42 <arseniiv> how are you => almost sane. I would be well if not for accidentally hearing a couple of words from a TV talk show, ugh. I’m not a TV watcher but others do use it and I can’t just switch it off when it offends my inner ideals. I don’t like outright heavy-handed manipulations
14:08:04 <arseniiv> <cpressey> arseniiv: I fixed Tandem btw => oh! I’ll look at the diff
14:22:34 <arseniiv> cpressey: the expression 1 | R | R & R | … for asteration gave me an idea: maybe one can be allowed to define named rules and invoke them in other rules (and maybe themselves)? Would that make something easier? Maybe it wouldn’t change the expressibility
14:24:42 <arseniiv> R* succeeds if R was able to be applied at least once. => now if we postulate R* being equivalent to 1 | R | …, either R* should always succeed or 1 shouldn’t succeed
14:26:04 <esowiki> [[Codesine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74462&oldid=44218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Unpipe && Cats
14:26:08 <arseniiv> honestly I wanted to suggest you make asteration always succeeding from the start but something kept me from doing it
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14:26:39 <esowiki> [[Fourier]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74463&oldid=49724 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Interpreter */ cat
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14:27:52 <arseniiv> the old behaviour of asteration would be attainable by R & R* which we may call R+
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14:29:17 <cpressey> Asteration does always succeed now - I forgot to update that section.
14:30:09 <cpressey> The weird way it was defined previously should've tipped me off that something wasn't right
14:31:24 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74464&oldid=74432 * Chris Pressey * (-45) /* Asteration */ Fix statement about when asteration succeeds.
14:33:42 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74465&oldid=74464 * Chris Pressey * (+142) /* Algebraic properties */ Fix left-distributive identity (& is no longer commutative) and mention right-distributive.
14:34:20 <arseniiv> cpressey: also do you want to add 0 and 1 to the inductive definition of a rule now?
14:34:31 <cpressey> Yes i probably do. And to the implementation too :)
14:35:52 <arseniiv> I hadn’t yet started rewriting my one too
14:45:06 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74466&oldid=74465 * Chris Pressey * (+352) Add 0 and 1 to inductive definition.
14:46:30 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Tandem.hs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74467&oldid=74427 * Chris Pressey * (+33) Add Zero and One to the implementation.
14:47:04 <cpressey> rewrite Zero c = Nothing; rewrite One c = Just c
14:47:08 <cpressey> how elegant is that
14:47:55 <arseniiv> cpressey: “R* means: repeatedly apply R while M(R) is nonempty.” => this could be reformulated too via the new M(R, S), I’d do it myself but I don’t know how to say S is the new state each time, succinctly
14:49:08 <arseniiv> cpressey: hm maybe it’s possible to generalize rules in some manner and make them instances of Functor etc.
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14:56:10 <Taneb> You know like the idea of rank 1, rank 2 functions in Haskell?
14:56:17 <Taneb> Is there such thing as a rank omega function?
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15:15:01 <arseniiv> Taneb: what’s expected to be available in writing its body?
15:15:13 <arseniiv> what can we do with arguments?
15:16:45 <Taneb> We can call the arguments, assuming we have a rank omega function of the appropriate type
15:17:04 <arseniiv> or it may be printf-style, knowing each argument’s rank and making a decision each time, applying something to the argument immediately
15:17:06 <Taneb> It's possible that it's an almost useless thing
15:18:15 <arseniiv> for that function to be truly rank-omega it would need to be able to take unbounded-rank arguments and I don’t see how it can be done not in printf-style
15:18:55 <Taneb> Yeah, you're right
15:19:31 <arseniiv> (or maybe one first defines a GADT incapsulating a rank-N function and then takes an argument of that type, but that would be almost the same thing though without printf clumsiness, but with its own wrapping clumsiness instead)
15:44:25 <esowiki> [[User:WilliamRagstad]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74468&oldid=68464 * WilliamRagstad * (-150) 
15:52:05 <arseniiv> I rewrote my Tandem impl and it again doesn’t halt when run on the example
15:55:32 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74469&oldid=74094 * Osmarks * (+128) 
15:55:59 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74470&oldid=74469 * Osmarks * (+0) 
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16:00:51 <arseniiv> ah, I applied a rule to the wrong world in concatenation’s application, and input wasn’t being changed
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16:16:27 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey here is mine again: https://hatebin.com/agiijfemrl
16:16:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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16:25:40 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey hm comparing with Tandem.hs it seems I implemented a “nondeterministic determinism” that for Ri | Rj applies both Ri and Rj when they don’t compete in changes they make. That’s ill-defined though, because (lα → α | lα → β) would replace l with β if applicable. So I’ll better make that part as in Haskell version
16:25:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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16:39:07 <esowiki> [[Rpncalc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74471 * Baidicoot * (+1664) Created page with "RPNCalc (technically RPNCalc V4) is a turing-complete, stack-based, dynamically-typed (vaguely *useful*) programming language that originally started off as a calculator on [h..."
16:39:32 <esowiki> [[Rpncalc]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74472&oldid=74471 * Baidicoot * (+3) 
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16:45:12 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey now the idiom to preset values to stacks should be written differently: (preset1 & preset2 & … | cont), as various preset_i would be applicable at the same time. I modified the example (with its Tandem code in a comment) with making my impl compliant with the previous issue: https://hatebin.com/qjielqvzhc
16:45:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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16:51:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * DeybisMelendez *  uploaded "[[File:Ni Logo.jpg]]"
16:51:42 <esowiki> [[Ni]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74474&oldid=74416 * DeybisMelendez * (+35) 
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17:16:35 <esowiki> [[Rpncalc]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74475&oldid=74472 * Baidicoot * (+1367) 
17:42:23 <b_jonas> for esoteric purposes, should we invent a multipodal p letter that is used exclusively for talking about the legs of myriapoda?
17:42:57 <b_jonas> and perhaps the legs of some ICs like CPUs
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18:17:19 <arseniiv> . o O ( and also a multimodal m? )
18:18:21 <arseniiv> anyway this is interesting. How many legs should this p have? I imagine a thing with three
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18:52:57 <zzo38> Can you make up such fonts? Three would be my guess though
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19:15:32 <rain1> https://github.com/Mojang/DataFixerUpper/issues/21 well the mystery is over
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19:58:08 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I guess six. three normal legs and three additional legs on the other side of the arthropod represented by short vertical strokes below the normal legs with a gap between
19:59:37 <arseniiv> b_jonas: could you draw it?
20:01:34 <arseniiv> rain1: wow
20:02:15 <arseniiv> TIL there’s a “Category do-notation” in the making: https://github.com/gelisam/category-syntax
20:05:18 <rain1> isnt that just function composition
20:14:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dYd84.png
20:16:09 <zzo38> I have a Italo-Spanish deck, but the box has French suits, why is that? It is clearly the correct box for these cards, though.
20:17:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[Rpncalc]] to [[RPNCalc]]: fix capitalization
20:17:32 <arseniiv> rain1: there’s something interesting in the example with reshuffling `Either`s
20:18:39 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, with cyrillic one it’s indeed more sense maybe
20:19:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: for a latin one you'd have to add an extra long vertical stroke in the middle, like a poor man's double-struck p, and then four disconnected short extra legs, one on the right and three below the three legs
20:20:04 <esowiki> [[RPNCalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74478&oldid=74476 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) cats, bold, links
20:20:40 <b_jonas> but the multiocular o is a cyrillic letter too
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20:24:16 <arseniiv> no doubt though it didn’t allude to me multipodal p should be alike
20:32:28 <esowiki> [[Alphabetti spaghetti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74479&oldid=65589 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Interpreter */ cats!
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20:53:14 <esowiki> [[Piet-Q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74480&oldid=44116 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Using Piet-Q */
20:54:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74481&oldid=72783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+976) 
21:01:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74482&oldid=74481 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) 
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21:28:46 <int-e> morbid :) 'The TD will accept the following reasons for the withdrawal as adequate: (a) Death of the player'
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21:59:36 <shachaf> Is that the only reason?
22:01:01 <int-e> No, there are others. This is from https://www.iccf.com/message?message=447
22:11:58 <shachaf> "Players are allowed to consult prior to those decisions with any publicly available source of information including chess engines (computer programs), books, DVDs, game archive databases, endgame tablebases, etc."
22:12:15 <shachaf> People are allowed to use software? Are all the games just matching chess engines against each other?
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22:17:02 <fizzie> Maybe they're just relying on the sort of people who'd play correspondence chess in the first place to all feel like that would be missing the point? 
22:18:27 <int-e> shachaf: apparently there's a bit more to this than that... deciding which chess engine fits which position best
22:19:01 <int-e> and deciding where to focus the analysis
22:19:05 <shachaf> Is there really competition?
22:19:06 <fizzie> . o O (Surely that's just a matter of writing a meta-engine though?)
22:20:55 <int-e> they have competitions and ratings, whatever those mean *shrugs*
22:23:01 <fizzie> "Trappist-1 (also called "Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option") --" oh no look what you've done now I'm clicking links again
22:23:20 <fizzie> (The game includes two huygens for each color. Huygens can jump 5, 7, 11 and other prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions (i.e. 5, 7, 11, 13, 17,...).)
22:25:09 <int-e> shachaf: I guess a large part of it is that correspondence chess is relatively old and they've just kept going as technology evolved, embracing it all because the alternative would be to stop completely.
22:28:03 <shachaf> I guess so.
22:29:06 <shachaf> Presumably a week of Leela Chess Zero or maybe Stockfish would just beat approximately anything else?
22:30:14 <int-e> ah but you don't have that much time for every move
22:30:33 <int-e> "ICCF standard time control 10 moves in 50 days with duplication after 20 days is used." -- hmm, maybe you do
22:30:46 <int-e> still deciding where to spend your time can make a difference
22:31:06 <int-e> but otoh there's probably the Google approach, just get better hardware
22:31:10 <zzo38> I have read there are chess tournaments where the players may use a computer to help with their decision; if you can also use books, DVDs, etc, then you just have many more options. I do not think that is wrong as long as it is known that such things may be done and what the time controls are. So, I think that it can work.
22:33:39 <int-e> shachaf: I can't explain it. I stumbled across the rule because I wanted to understand what "duplication" means in those time controls. Turns out this is a rule for server play that's officially called "double time"... if you take longer than 20 days on a single move, the extra time taken counts twice.
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23:56:11 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74483&oldid=74482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) 

2020-06-26:

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00:29:35 <zzo38> I have not seen that kind of time controls before, I think.
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07:41:54 <int-e> Are cat videos contagious?
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07:50:20 <myname> are cat videos a meme?
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07:52:21 <int-e> more of a class of memes, I guess
07:52:58 <int-e> Anyway, here's an instance I found amusing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doTL-2nAX3c
07:53:28 <int-e> And I'm trying very hard to avoid a tab explosion as a result :)
07:53:50 <int-e> (tab explosion: https://xkcd.com/609/ )
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08:08:24 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74484&oldid=74437 * DmilkaSTD * (+26) 
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08:12:58 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74485&oldid=74466 * Chris Pressey * (+27) /* Asteration */ Add S parameter. h/t arseniiv
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08:19:42 <wib_jonas> no announcement for the ICFP contest 2020 yet
08:20:24 <wib_jonas> despite that the conference is in 2020-08 and traditionally the results are announced there, so you want the contest well before that
08:22:11 <int-e> https://icfpcontest2020.github.io/
08:22:35 <wib_jonas> int-e: ah thanks! so they just didn't get the domain name yet
08:23:23 <int-e> seems late, but the conference will be a virtual event, so no travel arrangements have to be made
08:25:55 <shachaf> Are you "attending" SAT 2020?
08:26:13 <rain1> am i invinted
08:26:54 <rain1> wow its free
08:27:07 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, but the contest was always a virtual event, not counting the prize ceremony, which was at least recorded on video
08:27:58 <fizzie> . o O (If you organize a virtual conference with no registration requirement, can you claim the population of the world as your attendance figure, and just say many attendees just weren't paying that much attention to the event?)
08:28:51 <int-e> wib_jonas: sure but they tended to invite a representative of the winning team to the conference which needs a bit of time
08:28:59 <fizzie> . o O (If so, can you then use "world's largest" or "one of the world's largest" as descriptors by definition?)
08:30:17 <shachaf> There are also some workshops: Pragmatics of SAT, Model Counting, QBF
08:30:29 <shachaf> I wonder whether I can attend without installing Zoom?
08:31:07 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it's not easy to claim that, because a lot of people watch the summer Olympics on television, and anyone can watch for free
08:31:48 <rain1> not this year :(
08:31:51 <wib_jonas> you can still do the thing where you invent your own name for an area of industry and then claim that you're the biggest or most prestigeous conference in that area
08:32:16 <wib_jonas> and similarly, invent prizes with fancy names and give it to yourself
08:32:21 <shachaf> wib_jonas: I suspect it's pretty easy to claim that.
08:32:23 <wib_jonas> with nice gold plaques
08:32:24 <shachaf> You just need to say it.
08:33:13 <int-e> shachaf: btw I caved and solved your 6-12 thingy
08:33:36 <shachaf> whoa
08:33:38 <shachaf> By hand?
08:33:44 <int-e> (which turned out to be not very Sudoku-like at all)
08:33:57 <int-e> Yes, manually, in a text editor.
08:34:30 <wib_jonas> *text editor*? you don't have paper and pencil anymore?
08:34:50 <shachaf> https://www.f-puzzles.com/ seems to work well for these sorts of things.
08:34:57 <int-e> I used it for convenience; reordering rows is much easier in a text editor.
08:35:17 <shachaf> Ah, interesting.
08:35:39 <shachaf> Do you have an idea on the missing step here? uggcf://fyoxof.bet/chmmyr/6-12-fhqbxh/fbyhgvba.ugzy
08:35:57 <int-e> uhm
08:36:36 <int-e> I don't want to read that.
08:36:49 <shachaf> I mean in the beginning.
08:37:02 <shachaf> The question is how to rule out four of the 1s on rows 7 and 9.
08:37:32 <shachaf> Though actually it sounds like maybe you used a different method, which is interesting.
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08:59:17 <shachaf> The reason is just that I sort of wanted to submit it to a place but they wanted reasoning showing that it's solvable by reasoning.
09:00:34 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74486&oldid=74321 * Chris Pressey * (+67) Make provisional assembler syntax closer to Oleg Mazonka's.
09:00:56 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74487&oldid=74486 * Chris Pressey * (+1) /* Preliminaries */ typo
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09:27:37 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/6-12.txt is approximately what I did
09:28:14 <int-e> Which is not how you usually solve Sudokus at all.
09:32:11 <int-e> "approximately" mainly because I started over from scratch.
09:36:56 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74488&oldid=74487 * Chris Pressey * (+45) /* Tutorial: Hello, world! */ Clarify how the memory-mapped output works here.
09:45:29 <shachaf> Hmm, this is interesting.
09:49:18 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74489&oldid=74488 * Chris Pressey * (+3) Fix errors in Hello, world that crept in during de-sugaring.
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09:51:50 <shachaf> I like this approach.
09:55:40 <esowiki> [[Subleq/subleq.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74490 * Chris Pressey * (+3502) Add public domain interpreter and simple assembler for Subleq.
09:57:57 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74491&oldid=74489 * Chris Pressey * (+112) /* See also */ Add subleq.py
10:00:49 <esowiki> [[Subleq]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74492&oldid=74491 * Chris Pressey * (+244) /* Printing characters in a loop */ Add raw, non-assembly version of the Hello, world program
10:13:48 <shachaf> int-e: OK, this is pretty neat.
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10:14:31 <shachaf> Do you mind if I send your solution to people (with credit, of course) if I submit the puzzle?
10:14:44 <shachaf> This is pretty different from how I was thinking about it.
10:15:18 <int-e> go ahead
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10:17:44 <shachaf> By name or nick?
10:18:27 <int-e> yes
10:18:41 <int-e> I don't really care either way.
10:18:45 <shachaf> This explains some of the properties of the puzzle that I was seeing, about the rows being so determined.
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10:22:16 <int-e> honestly if I had not seen just how restrictive the at-at-most-11 constraint was, I wouldn't have bothered
10:22:41 <int-e> s/at-at/at/tuttering
10:23:49 <shachaf> Yes, most of the information propagates within rows, or something like that.
10:25:58 <shachaf> The other puzzle I uploaded is a lot easier, I think. Probably too easy? I have a harder version but I'm worried it's too hard.
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11:35:39 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74493&oldid=74233 * Chris Pressey * (+393) Improve TM2Burro to handle any number of tape symbols.
11:36:27 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74494&oldid=74493 * Chris Pressey * (+75) clarify
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12:25:24 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74495&oldid=74441 * A * (+7) Did a bit of re-formatting.
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12:41:20 <arseniiv> fungot how’s the weather?
12:41:21 <fungot> arseniiv: but afaik it isn't at all as saying that you might wanna have them interleaved searches to reduce the size of the element that is the one i opened weeks ago?
12:41:47 <arseniiv> raining cats and dogs, eh?
12:41:56 <Taneb> ?metar EGSC
12:41:57 <lambdabot> EGSC 261220Z 18011KT 9999 FEW030 30/16 Q1008
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12:43:19 <arseniiv> BTW dear fungot are you residing in an imaginary or historical country somewhere or do you associate yourself with a now existing one?
12:43:19 <fungot> arseniiv: extend, extinguish the murderous thing's fnord hunger for human flesh! we're all going to be something much worse. i'll dcc it over!
12:43:47 <arseniiv> I bet that means somewhere alternate
12:50:21 <wib_jonas> HackEso uses New Zealand locale but Iceland timezone, but I don't know how we can find those out about fungot, since he only interprets brainfuck and underload
12:50:21 <fungot> wib_jonas: a list is product heh been reading things that some american guy wrote about living in this building
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12:53:26 <wib_jonas> zzo38: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/core-set-2021-update-bulletin-2020-06-23
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13:11:17 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74496&oldid=74495 * A * (-583) 2D is extremely difficult to parse. Let's just get rid of that...
13:14:57 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74497&oldid=74496 * A * (-186) /* A practical example - gettind rid of the = */
13:17:00 <arseniiv> a list is a product of its time
13:20:05 <cpressey> hi arseniiv
13:20:18 <arseniiv> cpressey: hi hi!
13:20:24 <Taneb> A list is an exponential of its length
13:21:06 <arseniiv> Taneb: hopefully that length is dimensionless, or we’ll get in trouble
13:22:05 <arseniiv> BTW there is a esoteric topic of dimensional analysis of logarithmic quantities like various kinds of decibels
13:22:12 <arseniiv> many people get it wrong including me
13:22:13 <Taneb> (List A ~= Exists (n :: Nat). Fin n -> A)
13:23:08 <arseniiv> agree
13:30:35 <Taneb> I don't know much about dimensional analysis of logarithmic quantities but I've thought about it in the past and it sounds quite interesting!
13:32:06 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: we should say that a nat is equal to i radians (or maybe -i radians, who knows) in the same sense as a light-second is equal to i seconds (or -i seconds, who knows) in special relativity
13:34:03 <Taneb> wib_jonas: a nat here being the natural logarithmic unit of information?
13:35:30 <wib_jonas> Taneb: yes, 1 nat = 1/log(2) bit
13:36:32 <Taneb> wib_jonas: I'm not sure I understand how that equivalence would work
13:37:18 <wib_jonas> hmm yeah, that doesn't really make sense
13:37:49 <Taneb> Maybe a century or two ago the time/distance equivalence would have been equally confusing
13:38:53 <wib_jonas> but I mean, if your entropy is v nat, that means exp(-v) is the mean probability of the outcome; if your angle is phi radians, that means exp(i*v) is ... something
13:39:05 <wib_jonas> in both case nats and radians are the natural units to take exp frmo
13:39:33 <Taneb> Getting pretty close to Euler's identity there
13:39:37 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74498&oldid=74497 * A * (+13) /* Add two inputted numbers */
13:44:04 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74499&oldid=74498 * A * (+55) 
13:44:38 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74500&oldid=74499 * A * (-22) /* Instruction list */
13:49:26 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: that’s why I think squared interval is the right unit: then we’re absolved of deciding should we take sqrt of it (and which branch), or sqrt of its absolute value. or what
13:52:55 <arseniiv> also the thing is there’s no natural choice to treat timelike nor spacelike interval squares as positive, though physics text often commit to one choice and calculate everything using it instead of treating interval squares as an abstract real linear space. It should be abstract both because of this unorientedness and because there is no natural interval unit (when we’re not in GR, as we often are when working in QED for example)
13:56:13 <arseniiv> so,  strictly speaking, physicist’s riemannian pseudometric is not a real-valued bilinear form but a bilinear map to the 1-dimensional “squared interval space”. Though physical-minded people I told this to was not accepting this for some reason. Though they also were very coordinate-minded
13:56:36 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74501&oldid=74500 * A * (-53) 
13:56:36 <arseniiv> and in coordinates, no one will hear you %s
13:57:36 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I don't really understand that physics talk... I guess I deserve that for mentioning special relativity
13:57:37 <arseniiv> where %s = “make suggestions about the right invariant notions”
14:02:17 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74502&oldid=74501 * A * (-980) Simplify the spec again!
14:02:32 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74503&oldid=74502 * A * (-214) /* Computational class */
14:03:18 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74504&oldid=74503 * A * (-39) Gosh, why is the category still there!?
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14:14:49 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74505&oldid=71616 * Chris Pressey * (+1242) Computational class discussion, +See also, minor edits
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14:42:17 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74506&oldid=74505 * Chris Pressey * (+101) Add reference to back up that assertion
14:43:38 <arseniiv> hehehe
14:45:27 <arseniiv> uh, I meant “wib_jonas: hehehe”
14:47:08 <t20kdc> cpressey: with the exception of I/O, BitChanger looks extremely easy to translate from Boolfuck - one could imagine an additional tag bit used to get the tape pointer to/from the IO area
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14:47:47 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74507&oldid=57522 * Digital Hunter * (-65) 
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14:59:15 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74508&oldid=73206 * Digital Hunter * (+3) /* Language basics */
15:00:33 <cpressey> t20kdc: Oh, I forgot about Boolfuck, thanks.
15:01:34 <t20kdc> essentially, BitChanger is Turing-complete if Boolfuck without IO is Turing-complete
15:01:46 <t20kdc> Boolfuck without IO is Turing-complete if Brainfuck without IO is Turing-complete
15:01:48 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74509&oldid=74506 * Chris Pressey * (+15) /* See also */
15:02:28 <t20kdc> while BitChanger has IO, it requires actually implementing a translator, so these are just the absolute certain logical deductions
15:05:42 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74510&oldid=74244 * Chris Pressey * (+19) +year cat; author's page claims they made it in "2004 or 2005"
15:09:04 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74511&oldid=74508 * Digital Hunter * (-94) /* Example Programs */
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15:20:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74512&oldid=74511 * Digital Hunter * (-3) /* Instruction Syntax */
15:20:38 <esowiki> [[Subleq/subleq.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74513&oldid=74490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) cat + back
15:23:15 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74514&oldid=74512 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Logic flow */
15:25:00 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74515&oldid=74494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) 
15:27:15 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74516&oldid=74510 * Chris Pressey * (+314) Add command table.
15:35:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74517&oldid=74483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-62) /* Interpreter */
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16:22:33 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74518&oldid=61844 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) cats + grm + links
16:28:39 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74519&oldid=71550 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Introduction */
16:37:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Bigmac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74520 * Emerald * (+198) /* mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p */ new section
16:49:53 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74521&oldid=74514 * Digital Hunter * (+2976) 
16:53:34 <esowiki> [[Chespirito]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74522 * DeybisMelendez * (+797) Created page with "'''Chespirito''' is a brainfuck clone that uses some famous words created by [https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_G%C3%B3mez_Bola%C3%B1os Chespirito] as instructions. Create..."
16:56:19 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74523&oldid=59353 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) bold + links + cats + headersFix
16:57:28 <esowiki> [[SMITH sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74524&oldid=52874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) cat langs
17:09:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74525&oldid=74517 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+186) /* Syntax and Semantics */
17:09:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74526&oldid=74525 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax and Semantics */
17:12:17 <esowiki> [[Chespirito]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74527&oldid=74522 * DeybisMelendez * (+126) 
17:12:36 <esowiki> [[Probie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74528&oldid=73636 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* QUINE */ CAT
17:13:15 <esowiki> [[Probie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74529&oldid=74528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) ns notice
17:15:12 <esowiki> [[User:DeybisMelendez]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74530&oldid=74404 * DeybisMelendez * (+32) 
17:15:34 <esowiki> [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74531&oldid=45419 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) cats
17:15:41 <esowiki> [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74532&oldid=74531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Computational Class */
17:16:39 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74533&oldid=66393 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* External resources */ cats
17:17:24 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74534&oldid=65340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) cat
17:21:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74535&oldid=74526 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Interpreter */
17:21:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74536&oldid=74535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1156) Blanked the page
17:22:37 <esowiki> [[N Refine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74537 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1144) add N Refine
17:38:34 <esowiki> [[NucleotideBF (nBF)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74538&oldid=35472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Python Implementation */ cats + spaces
17:39:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74539&oldid=74456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* N */ + [[N Refine]]
17:40:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74540&oldid=74454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* Languages */
17:47:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74541&oldid=74521 * Digital Hunter * (+21) /* Computational class */
17:51:25 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74542&oldid=73791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+163) /* Options */
17:52:03 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74543&oldid=74542 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Examples */
17:55:41 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74544&oldid=74543 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) /* Backquote */
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18:33:56 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74546&oldid=74350 * ZippyMagician * (+9) Linear Bounded Automata -> Fix computational class
18:34:59 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74547&oldid=74545 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) fix yer headers
18:39:40 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74548&oldid=74546 * ZippyMagician * (+54) Better version of self-interpreter
18:40:15 <esowiki> [[BrainfuckX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74549&oldid=58303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+130) cats + bold + headers + misc
18:42:55 <esowiki> [[Unicat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74550&oldid=65763 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
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19:12:37 <zzo38> Does any other card game have a feature like the zeros in Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories? Possibly a game similar to whist can be made up with a few similar features.
19:12:56 <LKoen> what do the zeroes do?
19:13:44 <zzo38> Normally, a card beats a lower card, and if equal the first card works and the second card doesn't. However, if a zero is played, it beats a card that has been played before it, but can also be beaten by any card.
19:14:49 <b_jonas> "and if equal the first card works and the second card doesn't" => wait what? 
19:15:09 <b_jonas> that's reversed from some other trick-taking card games
19:16:09 <zzo38> Yes, it is, although Kingdom Hearts isn't a trick-taking game or even a card game
19:17:45 <zzo38> I think in most card games though you have to follow suit and there aren't duplicate cards, so you can't have the same one anyways
19:36:34 <b_jonas> you have to follow cards, but there are variants of a trick-taking party game that is often played with 5 to 10 players, and since there are a large number of players, you play with two 52-card decks
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19:57:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74551&oldid=56620 * Digital Hunter * (-685) 
20:01:44 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74552&oldid=74547 * Digital Hunter * (+208) /* Advanced techniques */ to be continued!
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21:20:28 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74553&oldid=73129 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+18) added link to Truttle1's userpage
21:24:36 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74554&oldid=74553 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+1) fixed some typos
21:25:22 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74555&oldid=74554 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (-2) its vs it's
21:35:26 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74556&oldid=74552 * Digital Hunter * (+105) /* Example programs */
21:42:05 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74557&oldid=74556 * Digital Hunter * (-2) /* If Statements */ original specification may lead to unwanted preconceptions
21:48:12 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74558&oldid=74557 * Digital Hunter * (-101) /* S */ changed some wording
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22:02:42 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74559&oldid=73310 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Syntax */ fix typo
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22:24:12 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74560&oldid=74558 * Digital Hunter * (-63) /* Loop Statements */
22:25:03 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74561&oldid=74560 * Digital Hunter * (-49) /* If Statements */
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22:48:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74562&oldid=74561 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* C */
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23:10:21 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74563&oldid=74562 * Digital Hunter * (+826) /* Advanced techniques */
23:10:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74564&oldid=74563 * Digital Hunter * (+6) /* The jump instruction */
23:23:17 <LKoen> zzo38: so there is "stratego" in which normally a higher ranked beats a lower ranked
23:23:36 <LKoen> with the exception of the spy(1) and marshall(10)
23:23:47 <LKoen> the spy beats the marshal if it's the spy attacking
23:24:04 <LKoen> if the marshal attacks the spy, then the marshal beats the spy
23:24:33 <int-e> . o O ( I take it those are not manpages )
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23:28:09 <shachaf> whoa, I remember Stratego.
23:45:09 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74565&oldid=74555 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) UnPiPe
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23:46:28 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74566&oldid=74564 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Divide two numbers */ cat comp you proved tc
23:54:09 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74567&oldid=74566 * Digital Hunter * (+183) /* Hello, world! */
23:54:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74568&oldid=74567 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
23:56:04 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74569&oldid=74568 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Truth-machine */

2020-06-27:

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06:19:14 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74570&oldid=74504 * A * (-16) /* Instruction list */
06:20:15 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74571&oldid=74570 * A * (+0) Fixed order
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07:59:33 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74572&oldid=65803 * Salpynx * (+100) /* External resources */ Link to in progress MUSYS simulator project
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09:10:51 <esowiki> [[Ly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74573&oldid=70563 * Sinthorion * (+24) category
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12:52:21 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74574&oldid=74565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External Resources */ cat
13:04:54 <esowiki> [[Ly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74575&oldid=74573 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Truth-machine */ sanity check?
13:05:10 <esowiki> [[Ly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74576&oldid=74575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* crystaLyne */ cats
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13:15:43 <b_jonas> apparently I started to work on the fecupboard20 font in 2008. that's quite long ago.
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15:23:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74577&oldid=74569 * Digital Hunter * (+117) /* Language basics */
15:24:18 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74578&oldid=74577 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* C */ rephrasing words
15:25:23 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74579&oldid=74578 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* B */
15:37:36 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74580&oldid=74579 * Digital Hunter * (+30) /* Computational class */
15:41:53 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74581&oldid=74580 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Instruction Syntax */
15:42:15 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74582&oldid=74581 * Digital Hunter * (+542) /* Advanced techniques */
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17:49:43 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74583&oldid=74582 * Digital Hunter * (+646) /* Example programs */
17:51:02 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74584&oldid=74583 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Store a number as a string */
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18:38:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74585&oldid=74450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Alcatraz */
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19:10:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74586&oldid=74585 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1349) /* Minsky Swap */
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20:43:22 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74587&oldid=73253 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* Counting up */ cats
20:43:47 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74588&oldid=74587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Point */
20:51:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74589&oldid=74586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+402) /* Readable Minsky Swap Notation */
20:52:37 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74590&oldid=74589 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Readable Minsky Swap Notation */
20:54:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74591&oldid=74590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1769) /* Minsky Swap */
20:54:17 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74592 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1741) Created page with "'''Minsky Swap''' is an esolang based on [[Minsky machine]]s and created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Memory== Programs in Minsky Swap have access to two unbounded r..."
20:54:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74593&oldid=74539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* M */ + [[Minsky Swap]]
20:55:45 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74594&oldid=74540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) /* Languages */
21:02:47 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74595&oldid=66904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implementations */ cat
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21:05:05 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74596&oldid=74595 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 
21:05:42 <esowiki> [[MIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74597&oldid=52407 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) 
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23:40:35 <b_jonas> `ruby -ea=[59, 112, 114, 105, 110, 116, 34, 97, 61, 35, 123, 97, 125, 35, 123, 97, 46, 112, 97, 99, 107, 40, 39, 99, 42, 39, 41, 125, 34];print"a=#{a}#{a.pack('c*')}"
23:40:36 <HackEso> ruby? No such file or directory
23:40:40 <b_jonas> ah
23:40:51 <b_jonas> quine by Kirjava, not mine

2020-06-28:

00:01:29 <shachaf> Is there something unusual about that quine?
00:02:31 <int-e> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
00:02:33 <lambdabot>  text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
00:02:36 <int-e> vaguely reminds me of that one
00:04:38 <shachaf> s="print \"s=\",s.inspect,\";\",s";print "s=",s.inspect,";",s
00:05:07 <shachaf> Man, the Ruby REPL has syntax highlighting now.
00:06:39 <int-e> that'll make quines much more cumbersome :P
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00:53:15 <zzo38> My bug report about printobject and writeobject in Ghostscript has now been marked as "bountiable"; I am not really sure what that means, but they have confirmed that the bug is present.
01:05:58 <zzo38> (Do you know what that means?)
01:07:43 <Arcorann> I suppose it means that they'll pay a bounty to whoever fixes it
01:11:00 <zzo38> Maybe. I fixed it myself, although since I have not signed the contribution agreement, I have not included their fix on the bug reporting system; I have posted my correction to comp.lang.postscript though (the message ID is <1591641282.bystand@zzo38computer.org>).
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01:43:12 <b_jonas> `ftoc 83
01:43:13 <HackEso> 83.00°F = 28.33°C
01:45:28 <int-e> @metar lowi
01:45:29 <lambdabot> LOWI 280120Z AUTO 28002KT 9999 SCT004 BKN011 15/15 Q1020
01:48:58 <b_jonas> no, not here
01:49:15 <b_jonas> well it's close but 
01:49:21 <int-e> I was just curious how close the two temperatures are together
01:49:31 <int-e> Doesn't get much more humid than that.
01:49:36 <int-e> (relatively)
02:05:33 <shachaf> @metar koak
02:05:34 <lambdabot> KOAK 280153Z 28015KT 10SM FEW007 FEW015 BKN200 17/12 A2983 RMK AO2 SLP100 T01720122 $
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06:02:13 <zzo38> Here is my latest role playing game story:  http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+31  Do you like this?
06:04:06 <shachaf> Is this information available via Gopher?
06:05:30 <zzo38> Currently, no, although you can download a Hamster archive from HTTP containing the files.
06:05:40 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.har
06:06:06 <zzo38> (Anyways, it isn't quite plain text (there is some formatting), which is mainly why it has not been made available via Gopher so far.)
06:13:27 <zzo38> (Also, this web page works fine in Lynx; I have ensured that it does.)
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08:26:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74598 * Orisphera * (+1346) Created page with "== Problems w/ FORK and SPOON == I have several questions about FORK and SPOON: ~~~~ * Are threads that are created and ones that become shiny/shabby while processing other sh..."
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09:13:35 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74599 * Orisphera * (+42693) Created page with "'''Snowflake (Orisphera's eidtion)''' is Snowflake with some tweaks done in order to fix some issues with FORK and SPOON. It is a reversible, self-modifying, data-parallel eso..."
09:16:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74600&oldid=74593 * Orisphera * (+38) /* S */
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12:14:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74601&oldid=74536 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+399) 
12:16:59 <esowiki> [[Hey stack!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74602&oldid=64655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Ways of greeting */
12:17:56 <esowiki> [[Hey stack!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74603&oldid=74602 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Description of Conway's Cellular Automaton in Hey stack! */
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12:36:25 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74604&oldid=74544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+162) /* Options */
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13:19:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74605&oldid=74601 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-399) Blanked the page
13:19:19 <esowiki> [[UFSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1506) Created page with "'''UFSA''' ('''Universal Finite State Automaton''') is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It can be used to describe any [[finite-state automaton]].  ==Syntax== Th..."
13:20:57 <esowiki> [[UFSA/PlusOrMinus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6419) Created page with ":{{Back|UFSA}} This is a description/implementation of [[PlusOrMinus]] in [[UFSA]].  <pre> 0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30..."
13:22:00 <esowiki> [[UFSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74608&oldid=74606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) /* Syntax */
13:22:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74609&oldid=74600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* U */
13:23:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74610&oldid=74594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Languages */
13:23:43 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74611&oldid=74303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Languages */
13:24:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74612&oldid=74611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) /* Languages */
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14:04:49 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74613&oldid=72414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Numeric constants (non-literals) */
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16:00:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74614&oldid=74598 * Orisphera * (+8) /* Problems w/ FORK and SPOON */
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16:43:53 <arseniiv> hi fungot
16:43:53 <fungot> arseniiv: i guessed that. you don't even make any sense but blaming it on someone else to
16:44:14 <arseniiv> fungot: I just wanted to say hello
16:44:14 <fungot> arseniiv: that's the point. not all of them via my fnord connection. :) thanks so much.
16:44:41 <arseniiv> I absolve your grumpiness okay
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18:14:20 <esowiki> [[Object oriented Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74615&oldid=70938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ categories
18:18:31 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74616&oldid=74591 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+438) /* Alcatraz */
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19:38:44 <rain1> https://twitter.com/pigworker/status/1270322619926151170
19:39:57 <rain1> https://vimeo.com/428161108
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19:51:59 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74617&oldid=55863 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+185) /* Interpreter */ cats + rm header
19:52:36 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74618&oldid=74617 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter */
19:54:00 <esowiki> [[InfSt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74619&oldid=74618 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) 
19:56:30 <esowiki> [[Writeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74620&oldid=74604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+192) /* Options */ add b
20:01:51 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74621 * ZippyMagician * (+3567) First version of page
20:07:19 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74622 * ZippyMagician * (+258) Created page with "Hey! I've always enjoyed writing programs in and interpreters for esolangs, so naturally I made an account here :D. Here are the esolangs I've written so far:  *[[Transposed]]..."
20:09:43 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74623&oldid=74621 * ZippyMagician * (+10) Clarification
20:15:41 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74624&oldid=73602 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+357) /* See also */
20:21:35 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74625&oldid=74624 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Interpreter in JavaScript */
20:32:00 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74626&oldid=74623 * ZippyMagician * (+1) Typo
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21:50:30 <esowiki> [[Integer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74627 * Hakerh400 * (+5269) +[[Integer]]
21:50:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74628&oldid=74609 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Integer]]
21:50:37 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74629&oldid=74401 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Integer]]
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22:29:14 <arseniiv> Miraldo and Swierstra wrote a diff for (typed) trees: http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~swier004/publications/2019-icfp-victor.pdf
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22:30:30 <esowiki> [[User:20kdc/HypotheticalBrainfuckToByteByteJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74630&oldid=73917 * 20kdc * (+440) Actual limited-memory interpreter for Brainfuck in ByteByteJump using the described techniques.
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23:37:18 <esowiki> [[Integer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74631&oldid=74627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) 
23:40:20 <esowiki> [[AsciiDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74632&oldid=60799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) 
23:40:51 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74633&oldid=74626 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-49) 
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2020-06-29:

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05:23:52 <zzo38> Will some software other than TeXnicard implement the Separations Output Format?
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07:06:34 <rain1> http://www.evan-doorbell.com/production/Overview-rough.mp3
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07:13:03 <rain1> https://esoteric.codes/blog/esoprogramming-and-computational-idealism
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08:10:34 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74634&oldid=74599 * Orisphera * (+10) 
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08:20:56 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74635&oldid=50790 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) added the stub
08:22:21 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74636&oldid=58989 * DmilkaSTD * (-6) added the link to your user
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08:25:02 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74637&oldid=74238 * DmilkaSTD * (-32) cant explain
08:29:24 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74638&oldid=74485 * Chris Pressey * (+324) Add section on commutors and distributors
08:30:07 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74639&oldid=66122 * Hakerh400 * (-11) fix title
08:36:37 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74640&oldid=74638 * Chris Pressey * (+235) Stack labels can be strings now, not just single characters.
09:16:12 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74641&oldid=74634 * Orisphera * (+4) 
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09:31:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:ZOWIE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74642&oldid=66231 * Chris Pressey * (+188) /* Turing completeness */
09:36:23 <esowiki> [[ZOWIE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74643&oldid=30950 * Chris Pressey * (+173) I claim that this language is Turing-complete.
09:50:29 <cpressey> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Would_BF_still_be_TC_with_do-while_loops.3F
09:50:37 <cpressey> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/47603/does-a-do-while-loop-suffice-for-turing-completeness
09:51:15 <cpressey> It's widely received knowledge that the language of "WHILE programs" is Turing-complete whereas the language of "REPEAT programs" isn't.
09:51:28 <rain1> I would guess yes by the principle of impossibility of avoiding turing completeness
09:51:44 <rain1> wwow you're saying it's NOT TC? that's exciting
09:53:14 <cpressey> "widely received knowledge" => "most people believe this, including people who write research papers"
09:53:44 <cpressey> We have two claims, I would love to see an actual proof.
09:55:07 <rain1> I'm surprised this problem is not already cleanly solved
09:55:46 <myname> well, unless you have some way to make a loop iteration be a nop or revertable depending on the state of a cell, you pretty much lose the ability to branch
09:57:02 <rain1> but you can branch
09:57:08 <rain1> it's just 1 or 2 instead of 0 or 1
09:57:36 <rain1> so this suggests trying to implement a reversible turing complete language is doBF
09:57:51 <myname> that's not really branching
10:05:41 <cpressey> I can see how using reversibility could help (do it zero or one times ~ do it twice, then undo it once or twice)
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11:12:31 <t20kdc> cpressey: is a limited-memory Brainfuck interpreter sufficient to prove the status of bounded-storage-machine?
11:18:04 <cpressey> t20kdc: I think so? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Smallfuck is an example of a brainfuck derivative that explicitly has finite memory, so is a bounded storage machine.
11:19:26 <t20kdc> in which case, any ByteByteJump with some minimum amount of memory (unknown, but at most 16K) is at BSM level
11:19:49 <t20kdc> proof for the 3-address-bytes/16MB case is at https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:20kdc/HypotheticalBrainfuckToByteByteJump#A_Much_Less_Hypothetical_Implementation
11:20:19 <t20kdc> the techniques used in it are described elsewhere on that page
11:22:52 <cpressey> That sounds/looks reasonable
11:24:29 <t20kdc> though to avoid wasting a lot of RAM, the tape uses up most of available memory, and is shared with the program content
11:25:02 <t20kdc> the theoretical description assumes a Brainfuck->ByteByteJump compiler, but this is an interpreter
11:26:34 <t20kdc> on the basis that an interpreter cannot perform any trickery
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11:34:10 <cpressey> There would be some overhead with an interpreter, but that doesn't really matter (it would kind of be expected.)
11:36:50 <t20kdc> even for a compiler, there's an expected overhead of 768 bytes
11:37:20 <t20kdc> (increment, decrement, check-zero)
11:39:36 <t20kdc> and conditional branches have either page alignment requirements (which gets costly fast) or 12 instructions of additional setup code...
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12:01:32 <esowiki> [[ThisIsNotARealLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74644&oldid=24123 * DmilkaSTD * (+28) +joke languages category
12:04:22 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74645&oldid=74438 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) just "wikified"?
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12:05:09 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74646&oldid=74637 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
12:05:48 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74647&oldid=74646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) external link -> link
12:06:04 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74648&oldid=74647 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
12:09:13 <esowiki> [[(   )fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74649&oldid=65072 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) bold + cats
12:14:39 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74650&oldid=71018 * DmilkaSTD * (+145) links fixed
12:17:21 <esowiki> [[Timefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74651&oldid=16628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228) cats + misc
12:18:03 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74652&oldid=74650 * DmilkaSTD * (-39) links fixed, again
12:21:47 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74653&oldid=74645 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Essentials */
12:23:01 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74654&oldid=74653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
12:27:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74655&oldid=74616 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+490) /* LET me PRINT the CURSOR */
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12:31:56 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74656&oldid=71611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* External resources */ comp class
12:32:56 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74657&oldid=71200 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) 
12:34:10 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74658&oldid=74657 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Hello, World! */ header->fix();
12:35:45 <esowiki> [[Les Accents Franais]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74659&oldid=55578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) emphasis on idea
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12:38:38 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74660&oldid=74652 * DmilkaSTD * (+841) grammar bad
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12:40:41 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74661&oldid=74660 * DmilkaSTD * (+17) grammar bad++
12:41:56 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74662&oldid=74661 * DmilkaSTD * (-9) not a stub anymore
12:42:30 <esowiki> [[Z3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74663&oldid=61294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
12:44:05 <esowiki> [[ThisIsNotARealLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74664&oldid=74644 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) 
12:44:19 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74665&oldid=74662 * DmilkaSTD * (+37) 
12:45:11 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74666&oldid=74635 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) 
12:45:53 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74667&oldid=74665 * DmilkaSTD * (+386) added palindrom example
12:46:33 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74668&oldid=74667 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) everyone makes oopsies
12:48:04 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74669&oldid=74668 * DmilkaSTD * (-29) +palindrom
12:48:43 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74670&oldid=74669 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) palindrom sequel movie hd
12:49:12 <esowiki> [[+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74671&oldid=49038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+798) 
12:50:44 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74672&oldid=74639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Interpreters */
12:51:28 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74673&oldid=70613 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Interpreters */
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74674&oldid=74673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe
12:53:07 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74675&oldid=74636 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) cats,link,bold
12:55:08 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74676&oldid=73269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Loop until the user says "stop" (case-insensitive) (9 bytes) */
12:56:26 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74677&oldid=72974 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 
12:58:18 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74678&oldid=74677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) update commands (did anything change?)
12:58:35 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74679&oldid=74676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Commands */
12:59:13 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74680&oldid=74670 * DmilkaSTD * (+190) meh
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13:04:45 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74681&oldid=74678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
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13:08:37 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74682&oldid=74680 * DmilkaSTD * (+268) +chars doc
13:09:44 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74683&oldid=74484 * DmilkaSTD * (+29) +tuplary
13:10:26 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74684&oldid=74682 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) oopsy daisy
13:10:38 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74685&oldid=74684 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) ?
13:12:18 <esowiki> [[+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74686&oldid=74671 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) /* External resources */
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13:14:04 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74687&oldid=74685 * DmilkaSTD * (+60) +hi
13:22:23 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74688&oldid=74687 * DmilkaSTD * (+270) im going to end it later
13:31:37 <cpressey> arseniiv: One of the things I like about Tandem is that it seems to lend itself to variations, e.g. some of the decisions you made in implementation would also be reasonable variations. If you remove the ls...->t form, then you do have the property that, the state was changed iff the rule succeeded. But then the main distinction between 0 and 1 is erased, and I don't know where that leads to algebraically.
13:32:16 <arseniiv> cpressey: hi!
13:32:19 <cpressey> btw I made a small change to the language (labels can be strings, not just characters).  Not really worth implementing (unless you want to generate Tandem code using some other program)
13:32:24 <cpressey> hi!
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13:52:25 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74689&oldid=74655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* LET me PRINT the CURSOR */
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14:07:17 <cpressey> arseniiv: Named rules is also interesting to consider (mainly as a way to define infinite rewriting rules (like you observed in asteration being 1 | R | R&R | etc.)) I have no idea where that goes.
14:08:15 <arseniiv> I’d hope named rules don’t add anything special, as there is asteration already and the language is TC already, but I think they may add something…
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14:10:20 <cpressey> Well, originally, my idea was sort of a semiring awkwardly stuck halfway between a Kleene algebra and a distributive lattice.  To make it work out, I pushed it towards Kleene algebra.  But pushing it the other way would also be interesting -- somehow make & and | distribute over each other.  Having infinite rewriting rules might fit in well there (but that's just a hunch.)
14:12:19 <cpressey> (Because there you wouldn't have asteration, but you'd still want to iterate the rewriting somehow, and maybe infinite rules could do that, maybe.)
14:13:43 <cpressey> Well, obviously they could if you could define asteration using them.
14:14:12 <cpressey> I don't think I'm quite up for thinking about this though, not at the moment
14:14:49 <cpressey> I just learned a little about Chu spaces and they are... very interesting.
14:21:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74690&oldid=74689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+470) /* LET me PRINT the CURSOR */
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15:40:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74691&oldid=74640 * Chris Pressey * (+150) /* Syntax */ Clarify role of whitespace. Other tweaks.
15:46:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74692&oldid=74691 * Chris Pressey * (+675) /* Implementing Automata in Tandem */ Show how a Minsky machine can be implemented.
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16:12:55 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74693&oldid=74688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat /* External resources */
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16:47:48 <arseniiv> => As such it is a model of Jean-Yves Girard's linear logic (Girard 1987).”
16:47:52 <arseniiv> oops
16:48:25 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I just learned a little about Chu spaces and they are... very interesting. => oh! “As such it is a model of Jean-Yves Girard's linear logic (Girard 1987).”
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18:35:41 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74695&oldid=73635 * Gogotron * (-1) The direction pointer doesn't start at the upper-right-most codel, but the upper-left-most codel. If it started on the right, facing right, it would just hit the edge of the image.
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21:46:59 <esowiki> [[Transposed]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74716&oldid=74633 * ZippyMagician * (-30) Update factorial program
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23:14:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74717&oldid=74709 * IFcoltransG * (+6) /* Paradigm */ Alerted people to the fact that Turning is not a typo of Turing
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2020-06-30:

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02:32:50 <esowiki> [[Transposed]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74720&oldid=74716 * ZippyMagician * (+45) Update memsys
02:33:11 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74721&oldid=74720 * ZippyMagician * (+0) Capitalize
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03:56:22 <esowiki> [[Rui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74723&oldid=74722 * DanielCristofani * (+56) 
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04:28:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74725&oldid=72702 * DanielCristofani * (-27) The idea that brainfuck has a tape is an old mistake based on conflating it with a Turing machine.
04:29:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74726&oldid=74725 * DanielCristofani * (+11) 
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06:53:11 <int-e> `? password
06:53:13 <HackEso> The password of the month is peeping Tom.
06:53:25 <int-e> `hwrl password
06:53:26 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/password
06:53:54 <int-e> The potm was more fun with oerjan...
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08:41:00 <cpressey> int-e: I have some questions about the reduction you wrote in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Would_BF_still_be_TC_with_do-while_loops.3F about 5 years ago
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08:43:01 <int-e> mmm
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08:46:24 <int-e> cpressey: I have no recollection of this :P
08:47:10 <cpressey> I've seen it widely assumed in research papers that, while the set of while-programs is Turing complete, the set of repeat-programs (aka do-while-programs) isn't. I've never seen it proved one way or the other though.
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08:47:49 <cpressey> You seem to have made a reduction that reportedly works for at least brainfuck.
08:50:58 <cpressey> So I guess my first question is, have you ever seen a proof like this in a paper?
08:51:08 <int-e> I have never seen such a claim.
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08:53:38 <int-e> The inspiration for the reduction was really just that when we keep a flag of whether we're supposed to execute operations or not, then we can use that to control effects and undo them when needed.
08:53:55 <int-e> But I don't recall any inspiration from the literature.
08:56:58 <rain1> did anyone solve the do/while thing yet?
08:58:04 <int-e> Brainfuck has an array, but I don't think that was essential for this idea to work out.
08:59:07 <int-e> But I'm not sure. Do you have a concrete language in mind? The actual operations kind of matter.
08:59:19 <int-e> Also I/O is a bit iffy.
09:00:16 <cpressey> In Hoare's 1969 paper he concocts a "language of while programs" for demonstrating his axiomatic semantics stuff.
09:01:01 <cpressey> I think Wang also used a similar/the same language in some papers.
09:01:22 <cpressey> And it's basically become A Staple of proglang semantics texts.
09:02:23 <cpressey> It's based on the observation that, if you have "while", you don't need "if", "for", "do-while", etc.
09:02:44 <int-e> The main issue is that you don't get a proper conditional. Instead, any code that wants to be executed conditionally has to be painstakingly instrumented to not have any effect based on some condition.
09:02:53 <int-e> (The main issue with do-while)
09:03:14 <myname> either that or be reversible, yeah
09:03:28 <int-e> But in the case of Brainfuck without I/O that instrumentation is possible.
09:03:46 <rain1> wow how does that instrumentation work? that is a different approach than I tohught of
09:04:13 <int-e> rain1: see the link cpressey posted above, where this discussion started.
09:05:08 <int-e> (Which has a translation for >.< that works by accident.)
09:06:00 <int-e> cpressey: I guess that also rules out any proper recursion (where a function would eventually call itself again).
09:06:05 <cpressey> I could believe that everyone just adopted "while" programs and ignored "do-while" programs because it was easy to show that "while" was universal (in this sense) and people just didn't care about "do-while" programs because they already had their example language for semantics
09:06:18 <int-e> cpressey: So for *practical* programming, do-while is certainly not sufficient.
09:06:18 <rain1> yep
09:06:23 <rain1> it's super interesting
09:07:13 <int-e> But from there to the claim that this may not even be TC... that's a long stretch.
09:07:17 <int-e> far stretch?
09:07:26 <cpressey> You do need to implement reversibility to make it work, but reversible computing didn't really become a studied thing until much later
09:07:29 <rain1> im certain it's TC
09:07:35 <rain1> but it's very interesting that this is not trivial to show
09:08:01 <cpressey> If there is a proof of it in the literature, it might be in the reversible computing literature
09:08:25 <int-e> well that brainfuck thing is certainly not reversible
09:08:47 <cpressey> int-e: you just said something about undoing what it just did though
09:09:01 <cpressey> That's all I mean by reversible in this instance
09:09:11 <rain1> I was thinking maybe you could translate reversible-bitfuck ==> doBF
09:09:13 <rain1> but actually it seems kinda hard
09:09:18 <int-e> cpressey: Yes, but that's on the level of a single brainfuck operation.
09:09:28 <int-e> +, -, >, <.
09:09:40 <int-e> [ and ] do non-reversible things.
09:09:41 <j-bot> int-e: |spelling error
09:09:41 <j-bot> int-e: |   and ] do non-reversible things.
09:09:41 <j-bot> int-e: |                           ^
09:09:45 <int-e> j-bot: thanks
09:09:46 <j-bot> int-e: |value error: thanks
09:10:00 <myname> :D
09:11:01 <rain1> :D
09:11:33 <myname> it's interesting that it does complain about things but not the rest, though
09:11:58 <int-e> cpressey: And it's really inspiration. Look at what + does: it adds 1 to the flag (so now it's 1 or 2), adds the result to the actual cell and a temporary one (because brainfuck), then subtracts 1 from the result, copies the temp back to the flag, and then subtracts 1 from the flag again.
09:12:50 <int-e> That is reversible, of course. But the main reason for that is that Brainfuck's + operation itself is reversible.
09:13:52 <myname> okay, first things first: in a do-while bf, could you easily clone a cell?
09:14:31 <int-e> Assume you have non-negative values only, then just add 1 first, and in the end remove 1 from the clones.
09:15:54 <int-e> Or perhaps start one level below that: +[-] resets a cell to 0.
09:16:39 <myname> right, sounds reasonable. so let's assume 0/1 only, then you could replace a + in a do-while with [+{go to condition clone}-]-, couldn't you?
09:16:43 <cpressey> On that page Rdebath also reports that they've used the reduction to translate some non-trivial brainfuck programs to Do-While-Brainfuck, and run them on their Do-While-Brainfuck interpreter successfully.
09:16:59 <cpressey> While not a proof, it's pretty good evidence that the reduction is mostly not broken.
09:17:08 <int-e> Yeah this is the main reason why I'm fairly confident that this works :)
09:17:25 <int-e> Because as you can also see in that discussion, I got some details wrong at first.
09:17:39 <int-e> (I'd have to check the page history for details, not inclinded to do that.)
09:18:11 <myname> cpressey: couldn't tgey just reduce the bf interpreter in bf to do-whie-bf?
09:18:57 <cpressey> Brainfuck's +-<> are reversible, but if you had to do it in a language with non-reversible things like "a := b + 5", you could implement reversibility in the reduction (i.e. in this case, save the old value of a on a stack or smth)
09:19:12 <int-e> myname: note that there's no translation for ',', and the translation for '.' produces extra NUL outputs when "skipped".
09:19:31 <myname> too bad
09:19:45 <myname> we need multi-tape bf with the input on the second tape :>
09:20:11 <cpressey> well, "while programs" don't usually have I/O either
09:20:11 <int-e> unavoidable, really... you have to make I/O primitives conditional in the language if you want a proper I/O-conforming reduction.
09:20:55 <int-e> At least for the usual interactive programming model we have for terminals.
09:21:20 <int-e> I guess s=programming=I/O=
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09:40:35 <cpressey> rain1: You were talking about squarefree words the other day. Apparently the language of squarefree words is context-free, but not deterministic-context-free? Apparently there is also no concrete example of a context-free grammar for a non-deterministic-context-free language?
09:41:13 <cpressey> The latter is from the WP article on PEG parsing. The former is from me trying to find an example of a CFG for a non-DCFL in the literature :)
09:41:41 <cpressey> I want to work on my own projects, but I keep stumbling across open questions that I can't believe are open questions and they distract me
09:42:35 <rain1> haha
09:42:54 <int-e> cpressey: What does "deterministic" mean here, and shouldn't any inherently ambiguous context-free language fit that bill? So, say, {a^n b^m c^k | n = m or m = k}?
09:44:14 <cpressey> int-e: "deterministic" means there is a deterministic PDA that parses it, the usual meaning
09:45:06 <cpressey> int-e: can you give a grammar equivalent to {a^n b^m c^k | n = m or m = k} ?
09:45:15 <int-e> oh right, automata.
09:46:13 <int-e> cpressey: S -> AB C | A BC; AB -> a AB b | e; C -> c C | e; A -> a A | e; BC -> b BC c | e
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09:46:29 <int-e> (e for empty string)
09:48:11 <cpressey> Ah, wait it's a bit more subtle than that.
09:48:12 <int-e> Intuitively, it should work, since basically you'll have to decide up front whether you want to count the a's (to compare to the number of b's) or the b's (to compare to the number of c's).
09:48:24 <cpressey> Ambiguous is not quite the same thing as nondeterministic.
09:50:17 <myname> cpressey: i am still looking for a topic for a master thesis :p
09:50:20 <cpressey> S -> "x" S "x" | "x"        is the example they give for nondeterministic but not ambiguous.
09:50:21 <int-e> Does a deterministic PDA give rise to an unambiguous grammar?
09:50:44 <cpressey> Deterministic implies unambiguous though, I'm pretty sure
09:51:20 <cpressey> The open question is "to give a concrete example of a context-free language which cannot be recognized by a parsing expression grammar."  PEGs are deterministic.
09:51:25 <int-e> If so, then by contraposition, inherently unambiguous languages don't have deterministic PDAs.
09:51:59 <cpressey> int-e: I think you mean inherently ambiguous?
09:52:13 <int-e> S -> x S x | x has the problem that the same language is also generated by S -> x x S | x
09:52:21 <int-e> cpyes.
09:52:24 <int-e> cpressey: yes.,
09:53:22 <int-e> (I wonder how that happens... sometimes tabs end up in the IRC message rather than being treated by the irssi input box. Maybe if they arrive in the same packet as the final return?)
09:53:49 <int-e> in test.
09:54:04 <int-e> maybe not.
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10:02:49 <cpressey> Ehm.  It seems PEG has a "not" operator...
10:03:20 <arseniiv_> yeah
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10:04:06 <arseniiv> positive and negative lookaheads, and curiously one can define only a negative one and get a positive as a double negative for free
10:04:07 <int-e> PEGs have backtracking.
10:04:42 <int-e> As far as the recognized *language* is concerned, there's no distinction between e1 / e2 and e1 | e2.
10:05:20 <int-e> The difference is only apparent when you look at parse trees.
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10:05:49 <arseniiv> wait, I think there were things with / making some things unparsable when you switch operands?
10:06:41 <int-e> I don't see why?
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10:06:54 <arseniiv> I don’t think I remember it correctly
10:07:12 <APic> Moin
10:07:13 <arseniiv> when I get back to making my parser thing I’ll re-read a couple of articles
10:07:32 <int-e> e1 / e2 and e2 / e1 should accept the same things, just potentially with different parse trees.
10:07:40 <int-e> I think.
10:07:59 <arseniiv> I do remember the set of languages is not smaller than context-free
10:08:45 <arseniiv> so I don’t think I formulated that thing above in the right words, yeah
10:08:47 <cpressey> I think what I'm missing is this: though PEG is determinstic, it might be able to recognize some or all non-deterministic CFLs, because it has more machinery in it than a PDA.
10:08:54 <wib_jonas> Question about trading card games. Do there exist randomized booster packs of collectible cards where the same packs have both normal and oversized cards? 
10:09:30 <wib_jonas> There'd be some logistical difficulties: either they have to add an extra strip of packaging to secure the normal cards, or fold the oversized cards in half.
10:10:09 <wib_jonas> As applications, I'm thinking mostly of games like Heartstone where you have a leader/commander that you never shuffle into decks and so can be oversized and even double-sided for free.
10:11:03 <myname> you could just pack the normal sized cards side by side?
10:11:37 <myname> like, instead of one double-sized card and a single stack of 8, just put 2 stacks of 4 in the package
10:12:09 <wib_jonas> myname: I don't think so, that would lead to physical damage to the cards before you open it
10:12:45 <wib_jonas> packing side by side works if you secure them somehow, like with two extra strips, or a rigid holder for products more expensive than a booster pack
10:13:04 <myname> well, you may need a separator. or you could print the cards in a small case to pop them out
10:13:23 <wib_jonas> yeah, if you do add two extra strips to separate them, that could work
10:13:33 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure if it's better than just one strip and cards on one side though
10:13:50 <cpressey> <int-e> e1 / e2 and e2 / e1 should accept the same things, just potentially with different parse trees. <=== the WP article gives a counterexample where the ordering does affect the language recognized
10:14:24 <myname> i'd think its better to actually transport that because of increased stacking potential
10:15:15 <wib_jonas> myname: or because of less damage to the oversized cards, yes
10:15:51 <wib_jonas> though right now I'm thinking more of folded oversized cards: you can fold them safely if they add some partial depth perforations at printing because they don't need to be shuffled
10:16:20 <myname> i would hate them because they tend to never stay flat later
10:17:54 <wib_jonas> maybe
10:19:06 <wib_jonas> ok, I guess make it an oversized card or two plus two small stacks of normal cards on the sides secured with two extra packaging straps that are glued or heat sealed to the seams of the package at its sides
10:19:52 <wib_jonas> it would be more expensive to prepare manufacturing than ordinary booster packs of course, so it's worth only if you use the oversized cards well
10:19:56 <int-e> join the cards together with perforation, upset all your customers :P
10:20:21 <myname> i thought about that, too
10:20:34 <int-e> (because I bet people will be annoyed and worry about cheating when the card borders aren't all smooth
10:20:37 <int-e> )
10:20:37 <myname> not directly together but to a small strip in the middle
10:21:03 <myname> hah, people that do that tend to use card sleaves anyway
10:21:08 <wib_jonas> int-e: hmm
10:21:30 <wib_jonas> myname: but not necessarily opaque sleeves
10:22:46 <wib_jonas> marketing has to appeal to players who want to consider collecting and don't yet want to buy a ton of opaque sleeves, since they cost more than thin transparent sleeves
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10:25:51 <int-e> wib_jonas: Actually I guess if you'd make a pre-stenciled frame for a pair of cards held in just two points, people might be happy enough. It works for cardboard playing pieces in many commercial board games after all.
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10:27:22 <myname> anybody here has an opinion about zenonzard?
10:27:30 <wib_jonas> int-e: are those cardboard playing pieces that need to be shuffled and then indistinguishable, without putting them inside a fancy scrabble bag?
10:27:45 <wib_jonas> Carcassone tiles come pre-cut so they look the same
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10:31:18 <int-e> wib_jonas: As I recall it they come in a cardboard grame but are all attached to that the same way (just two spots, easy to break).
10:31:37 <rain1> what is the square root of the language of squarefree words
10:31:45 <int-e> But maybe Carcassonne was an exception. I don't know this for any specific game.
10:31:56 <int-e> rain1: irrational
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10:33:11 <wib_jonas> "<cpressey> [...] Apparently there is also no concrete example of a context-free grammar for a non-deterministic-context-free language?" => s -> a | c; a -> epsilon | C a | D a | A a B a; c -> epsilon | A c | B c | C c D c; the language of strings where either A and B are balanced matching parenthesis or C and D are balanced matching parenthesis. 
10:34:38 <wib_jonas> or wait....
10:34:48 <wib_jonas> maybe that can be parsed with a deterministic machine? let me think
10:37:31 <wib_jonas> no, I think it can't be. without backtracking or arbitrary lookahead you can't tell which of AB or CD will match, so if a long prefix of the string has both AB and CD balanced so far, then the state plus stack of the machine would have to track both the depth of A and the depth of C of the prefix, be able to increment and decrement either at any
10:37:31 <wib_jonas> time depending on the input, and a stack machine can't do that.
10:39:45 <wib_jonas> this is effectively the trick I want to use to make Consumer Society intrinsically nondeterministic context free, though I use a larger alphabet
10:39:53 <int-e> wib_jonas: woah, using lower case for non-terminals and upper case for terminals is confusing.
10:40:12 <wib_jonas> int-e: sorry
10:40:30 <wib_jonas> but I think that's the way at least one book notates then
10:40:32 <wib_jonas> them
10:40:52 <int-e> there's always somebody that breaks the conventions FOR NO GOOD REASON
10:41:10 <int-e> doesn't make it right :P
10:41:55 <wib_jonas> ok, make it S -> A | C; A -> epsilon | c A | d A | a A b A; C -> epsilon | a C | b C | c C d C; the language of strings where either a and b are balanced matching parenthesis or c and d are balanced matching parenthesis.
10:42:35 <cpressey> idea: de Bruijn indices, except they're for nonterminals
10:42:52 <cpressey> (yes, yes, I know)
10:43:24 <wib_jonas> of course this is true for Consumer Society only if you look at it at just the right level, because after parsing it is Turing-complete and so it's uncomputable to determine if the program will run into a semantic error at runtime
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10:51:31 <arseniiv> cpressey: hmm
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11:37:18 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74727&oldid=74693 * DmilkaSTD * (-2155) disaster
11:41:37 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74728&oldid=74727 * DmilkaSTD * (+130) +nums
11:42:40 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74729&oldid=74728 * DmilkaSTD * (+8) +<br>s
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11:44:48 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74730&oldid=74729 * DmilkaSTD * (+229) +sign nums
11:50:19 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74731&oldid=74730 * DmilkaSTD * (+404) +chars
11:55:20 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74732&oldid=74731 * DmilkaSTD * (+259) +upchars
12:05:00 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74733&oldid=74732 * DmilkaSTD * (+1315) +godchars
12:08:59 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74734&oldid=74733 * DmilkaSTD * (+47) fix
12:10:36 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74735&oldid=74734 * DmilkaSTD * (+12) +see
12:12:12 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74736&oldid=74735 * DmilkaSTD * (+34) +see
12:17:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:SASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74737 * DmilkaSTD * (+74) Created page with "Why does this exist? --~~~~"
12:17:26 <esowiki> [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74738&oldid=74724 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Implementations */ cat
12:19:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Snowflake]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74739&oldid=74614 * Orisphera * (+14) 
12:23:24 <esowiki> [[TECO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74740&oldid=74718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
12:29:27 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74741&oldid=74440 * DmilkaSTD * (-3402) I actually finished it
12:49:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74742&oldid=74719 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+965) 
12:57:33 <esowiki> [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74743&oldid=68579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) cats,misc
12:58:18 <esowiki> [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74744&oldid=74743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 
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13:11:17 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74746&oldid=74509 * Chris Pressey * (+814) /* Computational class */ Sketch what the reduction would look like
13:12:45 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74747&oldid=74746 * Chris Pressey * (+277) Add command table.
13:13:39 <esowiki> [[Nil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74748&oldid=65572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* External resources */ cats
13:14:42 <esowiki> [[Etcha]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74749&oldid=40945 * Chris Pressey * (+46) This language is Turing-complete.
13:16:24 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74750&oldid=72070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* 6969 Assembler */ cats
13:18:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74751&oldid=74742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1279) Blanked the page
13:18:54 <esowiki> [[Something positive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74752 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1494) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''something positive''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Overview== something positive is a [[string]]-[[rewriting]] language. Programs take..."
13:19:11 <esowiki> [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74753&oldid=74752 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
13:19:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74754&oldid=74714 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* S */
13:20:55 <esowiki> [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74755&oldid=74351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Interpreter in C (solo.h) */
13:21:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74756&oldid=74715 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* Languages */
13:25:02 <esowiki> [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74757&oldid=74753 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) /* Examples */
13:25:38 <esowiki> [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74758&oldid=74757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Overview */
13:26:36 <esowiki> [[Assembly code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74759&oldid=8592 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) dstnguish
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13:27:44 <esowiki> [[Machine code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74761&oldid=8591 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) user A lamnguage
13:28:55 <esowiki> [[SASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74762&oldid=68585 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) 
13:34:36 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74763&oldid=74741 * DmilkaSTD * (+3757) Language remastered
13:35:29 <esowiki> [[Vowels]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74764&oldid=71021 * Chris Pressey * (+49) disambiguate
13:36:02 <esowiki> [[Vowels (2017)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74765&oldid=52584 * Chris Pressey * (+48) disambiguate
13:39:36 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74766&oldid=74763 * DmilkaSTD * (-3) fixed some bad grammar
13:43:05 <esowiki> [[Vowels (2017)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74767&oldid=74765 * Chris Pressey * (+400) Add computational class sketch.
13:52:45 <esowiki> [[V (FMota)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74768&oldid=50732 * Chris Pressey * (+29) +year
13:57:17 <arseniiv> https://xkcd.com/2309 esolanging much, eh?
13:57:29 <esowiki> [[Nhohnhehr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74769&oldid=40957 * Chris Pressey * (+41) +cat (We still don't know...)
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14:24:38 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74771&oldid=69355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello, World! */ cat
14:25:04 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74772&oldid=74771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 
14:27:22 <esowiki> [[Nestplate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74773&oldid=57390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 
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15:22:26 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74777&oldid=74775 * DmilkaSTD * (+648) +,const vars
15:24:15 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74778&oldid=74683 * DmilkaSTD * (+70) 
15:40:51 <esowiki> [[Java']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74779&oldid=72628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) cats ++ bold ++ link
15:41:36 <esowiki> [[GreenBerry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74780&oldid=70800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* External resources */ cats
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15:56:08 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74781&oldid=74777 * DmilkaSTD * (+290) +break bcause i'm lazy
15:56:38 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74782&oldid=74781 * DmilkaSTD * (-3) -spaces
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15:58:49 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74786&oldid=74782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Break */ links
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17:10:31 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74788&oldid=74787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+234) /* Operator */
17:11:58 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74789&oldid=74786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Memory management */
17:16:04 <esowiki> [[Java'']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74790&oldid=21447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) stub + cats
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17:35:37 <arseniiv> what control flow would you suggest for a language with values from the unit disc? (z ∈ C with |z| ≤ 1, though not arbitrary ones, to allow implementation: either usual float pairs, or cyclotomics, or something else)
17:49:56 <Cale> Complex Fractran? :D
17:53:38 <Cale> Oh man, you could do fractran on arbitrary number fields and interpret the word "integer" to mean "element of the ring of integers of the number field"
18:03:24 <rain1> O_O
18:49:07 <esowiki> [[Conditional brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74791&oldid=71597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) cats + links + bold + fix headers
18:56:14 <esowiki> [[InterpretMe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74792&oldid=57700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) cats
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[ODDBALL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74793&oldid=58454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */ cat
18:59:41 <esowiki> [[HELP (Preprocessor)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74794&oldid=37175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) cats + bold
19:00:23 <esowiki> [[HELP (Preprocessor)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74795&oldid=74794 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* See also */ cux
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19:04:25 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74796&oldid=64614 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Computational Properties */
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19:17:47 <esowiki> [[Call stack/Manipulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74800&oldid=46064 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) 
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20:24:19 <esowiki> [[Ni]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74812&oldid=74474 * DeybisMelendez * (-132) 
20:37:17 <esowiki> [[Ni]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74813&oldid=74812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) /* Computational class */
20:46:23 <esowiki> [[Grime MC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74814&oldid=67949 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* External resources */
20:47:01 <esowiki> [[Chespirito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74815&oldid=74527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Implementation */ equiv->deriv + cats
20:48:24 <arseniiv> are there any news since that old Baez post about whether there is a “golden type” Φ such that Φ² ≅ 1 + Φ with a natural isomorphism (natural like in seven trees in one)?
20:48:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74816&oldid=74788 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* kcufnairB */
20:49:34 <arseniiv> an arithmetical error (alas!) and an unique type deliver the solution: (1 + U)² ≅ 1 + 2U ❝≅❞ 1 + (1 + U) (what was I thinking?!)
20:55:52 <arseniiv> double mistake: I thought this still gives a correct solution when U is a singleton, but no, U ≇ 1 for the same reason I remembered it here, becase of its square. And anyway that’d be boring: one wants to find an infinite Φ
20:57:32 <shachaf> If it's a natural isomorphism then Φ should be a functor, right?
21:01:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74817&oldid=74751 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+774) 
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21:14:32 <arseniiv> shachaf: mm I don’t know if a concrete type may be a functor. In the tree case though, T = μx. T′x where T′ is indeed a functor 1 + X²
21:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74819&oldid=74818 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Interpreter */
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21:16:37 <arseniiv> yeah I think one may ask about a functor F such that (μx. Fx)² ≅ 1 + (μx. Fx) though I’m not sure if we can take μx off and simplify this
21:19:45 <arseniiv> suppose now U³ ≅ 0. Then (A + U + U²)² ≅ A² + 2AU + (1 + A) U² = hmm no. Let’s try infinite series
21:24:06 <arseniiv> ha, that just delegates the problem to finding the first coefficient of the series with the same property
21:24:55 <shachaf> Well, you care about the shape, not just the cardinality.
21:25:13 <arseniiv> yes
21:26:49 <arseniiv> in one place there were stated such an isomorphism requires inspecting no more than a fixed amount of data constructors
21:26:59 <shachaf> I wasn't talking about the functor F that you're taking the fixed point of, but about the functor e.g. Tree a = Leaf | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a)
21:28:31 <arseniiv> isn’t that just a constant functor (technically, up to replacing Leaf with Leaf a, but they should be equivalent)
21:28:41 <shachaf> Er, I meant "Leaf a".
21:28:56 <arseniiv> ah
21:29:21 <arseniiv> wait, and I lied, of course versions with Leaf and Leaf a are different
21:30:06 <shachaf> Anyway I'd be pretty surprised if you figured out a type that has this property.
21:30:35 <arseniiv> I would be too! Now I have no hope after series failed me
21:31:03 <shachaf> I mean, of course there's an isomorphism between 1 + Nat and Nat^2. That's why you need naturality.
21:33:22 <arseniiv> I had not much hope from the start as I haven’t got as many mathematician friend as Baez does, so if they haven’t figured it out in several weeks or years (supposing that after that they either forgot ot he wouldn’t append a note to that old post when the solution would be found), how would I in a burst of procrastinative initiative (at most a couple of hours)?
21:33:32 <arseniiv> s/friend/friends
21:34:29 <arseniiv> here’s another question, maybe more fruitful: how would one prove that there’s no such type?
21:34:44 <arseniiv> (in a suitable type theory)
21:36:06 <arseniiv> so we could say Φ is almost surely not a regular tree type or what are they called (not a polynomial nor a recursive type involving polynomials)
21:37:14 <arseniiv> though I’m not entirely sure about recursive polynomial types. I thought any of them is isomorphic to some series, and if that’s not the case…
21:37:56 <arseniiv> and maybe unique types couldn’t save us either
21:38:33 <arseniiv> er, “generalized unique types”, like U such that U³ ≅ 0
21:38:40 <arseniiv> nilpotent types
21:39:15 <arseniiv> and on that my knowledge of various type-algebraic things ends
21:41:25 <arseniiv> well, also I heard about realizing negative and quotient types—and they say that’s hard on its own and then so much as impossible if one wants to have both together
21:48:13 <arseniiv> also of note: it seems one can’t talk about an antidiagonal X^2̲ (and a diagonal in first place) of X² if not (Eq X). For the same reason one can’t talk about an upper antidiagonal X^2̲ / 2! ≡ binom(X, 2) if not (Ord X). That shouldn’t directly relate to the previous, I’m just reading old sigfpe
21:49:03 <arseniiv> (one can replace 2 with n here)
21:50:46 <arseniiv> @ask rain1 BTW what did you wanted symmetric polynomials for? Just curious
21:50:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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