01:18:35 -!- adu has joined. 02:32:50 [[Transposed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74720&oldid=74716 * ZippyMagician * (+45) Update memsys 02:33:11 [[Transposed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74721&oldid=74720 * ZippyMagician * (+0) Capitalize 03:18:58 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 03:20:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 03:23:57 -!- t20kdc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:51:48 [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74722&oldid=73893 * DanielCristofani * (+6) /* Instruction set */ 03:56:22 [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74723&oldid=74722 * DanielCristofani * (+56) 03:56:42 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:56:54 [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74724&oldid=74723 * DanielCristofani * (-2) 03:57:19 -!- erdic has joined. 04:28:38 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74725&oldid=72702 * DanielCristofani * (-27) The idea that brainfuck has a tape is an old mistake based on conflating it with a Turing machine. 04:29:39 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74726&oldid=74725 * DanielCristofani * (+11) 04:34:08 -!- rain1 has joined. 05:07:27 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 05:18:54 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:53:11 `? password 06:53:13 The password of the month is peeping Tom. 06:53:25 `hwrl password 06:53:26 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/password 06:53:54 The potm was more fun with oerjan... 07:24:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:44:28 -!- nfd has joined. 07:48:02 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:55:36 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:00:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 08:02:45 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:34:02 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:38:40 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:38:50 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed). 08:38:50 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:41:00 int-e: I have some questions about the reduction you wrote in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Would_BF_still_be_TC_with_do-while_loops.3F about 5 years ago 08:42:59 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:43:01 mmm 08:43:17 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:46:24 cpressey: I have no recollection of this :P 08:47:10 I've seen it widely assumed in research papers that, while the set of while-programs is Turing complete, the set of repeat-programs (aka do-while-programs) isn't. I've never seen it proved one way or the other though. 08:47:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 08:47:44 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:47:49 You seem to have made a reduction that reportedly works for at least brainfuck. 08:50:58 So I guess my first question is, have you ever seen a proof like this in a paper? 08:51:08 I have never seen such a claim. 08:52:50 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 08:53:38 The inspiration for the reduction was really just that when we keep a flag of whether we're supposed to execute operations or not, then we can use that to control effects and undo them when needed. 08:53:55 But I don't recall any inspiration from the literature. 08:56:58 did anyone solve the do/while thing yet? 08:58:04 Brainfuck has an array, but I don't think that was essential for this idea to work out. 08:59:07 But I'm not sure. Do you have a concrete language in mind? The actual operations kind of matter. 08:59:19 Also I/O is a bit iffy. 09:00:16 In Hoare's 1969 paper he concocts a "language of while programs" for demonstrating his axiomatic semantics stuff. 09:01:01 I think Wang also used a similar/the same language in some papers. 09:01:22 And it's basically become A Staple of proglang semantics texts. 09:02:23 It's based on the observation that, if you have "while", you don't need "if", "for", "do-while", etc. 09:02:44 The main issue is that you don't get a proper conditional. Instead, any code that wants to be executed conditionally has to be painstakingly instrumented to not have any effect based on some condition. 09:02:53 (The main issue with do-while) 09:03:14 either that or be reversible, yeah 09:03:28 But in the case of Brainfuck without I/O that instrumentation is possible. 09:03:46 wow how does that instrumentation work? that is a different approach than I tohught of 09:04:13 rain1: see the link cpressey posted above, where this discussion started. 09:05:08 (Which has a translation for >.< that works by accident.) 09:06:00 cpressey: I guess that also rules out any proper recursion (where a function would eventually call itself again). 09:06:05 I could believe that everyone just adopted "while" programs and ignored "do-while" programs because it was easy to show that "while" was universal (in this sense) and people just didn't care about "do-while" programs because they already had their example language for semantics 09:06:18 cpressey: So for *practical* programming, do-while is certainly not sufficient. 09:06:18 yep 09:06:23 it's super interesting 09:07:13 But from there to the claim that this may not even be TC... that's a long stretch. 09:07:17 far stretch? 09:07:26 You do need to implement reversibility to make it work, but reversible computing didn't really become a studied thing until much later 09:07:29 im certain it's TC 09:07:35 but it's very interesting that this is not trivial to show 09:08:01 If there is a proof of it in the literature, it might be in the reversible computing literature 09:08:25 well that brainfuck thing is certainly not reversible 09:08:47 int-e: you just said something about undoing what it just did though 09:09:01 That's all I mean by reversible in this instance 09:09:11 I was thinking maybe you could translate reversible-bitfuck ==> doBF 09:09:13 but actually it seems kinda hard 09:09:18 cpressey: Yes, but that's on the level of a single brainfuck operation. 09:09:28 +, -, >, <. 09:09:40 [ and ] do non-reversible things. 09:09:41 int-e: |spelling error 09:09:41 int-e: | and ] do non-reversible things. 09:09:41 int-e: | ^ 09:09:45 j-bot: thanks 09:09:46 int-e: |value error: thanks 09:10:00 :D 09:11:01 :D 09:11:33 it's interesting that it does complain about things but not the rest, though 09:11:58 cpressey: And it's really inspiration. Look at what + does: it adds 1 to the flag (so now it's 1 or 2), adds the result to the actual cell and a temporary one (because brainfuck), then subtracts 1 from the result, copies the temp back to the flag, and then subtracts 1 from the flag again. 09:12:50 That is reversible, of course. But the main reason for that is that Brainfuck's + operation itself is reversible. 09:13:52 okay, first things first: in a do-while bf, could you easily clone a cell? 09:14:31 Assume you have non-negative values only, then just add 1 first, and in the end remove 1 from the clones. 09:15:54 Or perhaps start one level below that: +[-] resets a cell to 0. 09:16:39 right, sounds reasonable. so let's assume 0/1 only, then you could replace a + in a do-while with [+{go to condition clone}-]-, couldn't you? 09:16:43 On that page Rdebath also reports that they've used the reduction to translate some non-trivial brainfuck programs to Do-While-Brainfuck, and run them on their Do-While-Brainfuck interpreter successfully. 09:16:59 While not a proof, it's pretty good evidence that the reduction is mostly not broken. 09:17:08 Yeah this is the main reason why I'm fairly confident that this works :) 09:17:25 Because as you can also see in that discussion, I got some details wrong at first. 09:17:39 (I'd have to check the page history for details, not inclinded to do that.) 09:18:11 cpressey: couldn't tgey just reduce the bf interpreter in bf to do-whie-bf? 09:18:57 Brainfuck's +-<> are reversible, but if you had to do it in a language with non-reversible things like "a := b + 5", you could implement reversibility in the reduction (i.e. in this case, save the old value of a on a stack or smth) 09:19:12 myname: note that there's no translation for ',', and the translation for '.' produces extra NUL outputs when "skipped". 09:19:31 too bad 09:19:45 we need multi-tape bf with the input on the second tape :> 09:20:11 well, "while programs" don't usually have I/O either 09:20:11 unavoidable, really... you have to make I/O primitives conditional in the language if you want a proper I/O-conforming reduction. 09:20:55 At least for the usual interactive programming model we have for terminals. 09:21:20 I guess s=programming=I/O= 09:27:44 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 09:27:44 -!- wmww has joined. 09:40:35 rain1: You were talking about squarefree words the other day. Apparently the language of squarefree words is context-free, but not deterministic-context-free? Apparently there is also no concrete example of a context-free grammar for a non-deterministic-context-free language? 09:41:13 The latter is from the WP article on PEG parsing. The former is from me trying to find an example of a CFG for a non-DCFL in the literature :) 09:41:41 I want to work on my own projects, but I keep stumbling across open questions that I can't believe are open questions and they distract me 09:42:35 haha 09:42:54 cpressey: What does "deterministic" mean here, and shouldn't any inherently ambiguous context-free language fit that bill? So, say, {a^n b^m c^k | n = m or m = k}? 09:44:14 int-e: "deterministic" means there is a deterministic PDA that parses it, the usual meaning 09:45:06 int-e: can you give a grammar equivalent to {a^n b^m c^k | n = m or m = k} ? 09:45:15 oh right, automata. 09:46:13 cpressey: S -> AB C | A BC; AB -> a AB b | e; C -> c C | e; A -> a A | e; BC -> b BC c | e 09:46:16 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 09:46:29 (e for empty string) 09:48:11 Ah, wait it's a bit more subtle than that. 09:48:12 Intuitively, it should work, since basically you'll have to decide up front whether you want to count the a's (to compare to the number of b's) or the b's (to compare to the number of c's). 09:48:24 Ambiguous is not quite the same thing as nondeterministic. 09:50:17 cpressey: i am still looking for a topic for a master thesis :p 09:50:20 S -> "x" S "x" | "x" is the example they give for nondeterministic but not ambiguous. 09:50:21 Does a deterministic PDA give rise to an unambiguous grammar? 09:50:44 Deterministic implies unambiguous though, I'm pretty sure 09:51:20 The open question is "to give a concrete example of a context-free language which cannot be recognized by a parsing expression grammar." PEGs are deterministic. 09:51:25 If so, then by contraposition, inherently unambiguous languages don't have deterministic PDAs. 09:51:59 int-e: I think you mean inherently ambiguous? 09:52:13 S -> x S x | x has the problem that the same language is also generated by S -> x x S | x 09:52:21 cpyes. 09:52:24 cpressey: yes., 09:53:22 (I wonder how that happens... sometimes tabs end up in the IRC message rather than being treated by the irssi input box. Maybe if they arrive in the same packet as the final return?) 09:53:49 in test. 09:54:04 maybe not. 09:57:56 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:58:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:02:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 10:02:44 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:02:49 Ehm. It seems PEG has a "not" operator... 10:03:20 yeah 10:03:25 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 10:04:06 positive and negative lookaheads, and curiously one can define only a negative one and get a positive as a double negative for free 10:04:07 PEGs have backtracking. 10:04:42 As far as the recognized *language* is concerned, there's no distinction between e1 / e2 and e1 | e2. 10:05:20 The difference is only apparent when you look at parse trees. 10:05:38 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 10:05:49 wait, I think there were things with / making some things unparsable when you switch operands? 10:06:41 I don't see why? 10:06:50 -!- APic has joined. 10:06:54 I don’t think I remember it correctly 10:07:12 Moin 10:07:13 when I get back to making my parser thing I’ll re-read a couple of articles 10:07:32 e1 / e2 and e2 / e1 should accept the same things, just potentially with different parse trees. 10:07:40 I think. 10:07:59 I do remember the set of languages is not smaller than context-free 10:08:45 so I don’t think I formulated that thing above in the right words, yeah 10:08:47 I think what I'm missing is this: though PEG is determinstic, it might be able to recognize some or all non-deterministic CFLs, because it has more machinery in it than a PDA. 10:08:54 Question about trading card games. Do there exist randomized booster packs of collectible cards where the same packs have both normal and oversized cards? 10:09:30 There'd be some logistical difficulties: either they have to add an extra strip of packaging to secure the normal cards, or fold the oversized cards in half. 10:10:09 As applications, I'm thinking mostly of games like Heartstone where you have a leader/commander that you never shuffle into decks and so can be oversized and even double-sided for free. 10:11:03 you could just pack the normal sized cards side by side? 10:11:37 like, instead of one double-sized card and a single stack of 8, just put 2 stacks of 4 in the package 10:12:09 myname: I don't think so, that would lead to physical damage to the cards before you open it 10:12:45 packing side by side works if you secure them somehow, like with two extra strips, or a rigid holder for products more expensive than a booster pack 10:13:04 well, you may need a separator. or you could print the cards in a small case to pop them out 10:13:23 yeah, if you do add two extra strips to separate them, that could work 10:13:33 I'm not sure if it's better than just one strip and cards on one side though 10:13:50 e1 / e2 and e2 / e1 should accept the same things, just potentially with different parse trees. <=== the WP article gives a counterexample where the ordering does affect the language recognized 10:14:24 i'd think its better to actually transport that because of increased stacking potential 10:15:15 myname: or because of less damage to the oversized cards, yes 10:15:51 though right now I'm thinking more of folded oversized cards: you can fold them safely if they add some partial depth perforations at printing because they don't need to be shuffled 10:16:20 i would hate them because they tend to never stay flat later 10:17:54 maybe 10:19:06 ok, I guess make it an oversized card or two plus two small stacks of normal cards on the sides secured with two extra packaging straps that are glued or heat sealed to the seams of the package at its sides 10:19:52 it would be more expensive to prepare manufacturing than ordinary booster packs of course, so it's worth only if you use the oversized cards well 10:19:56 join the cards together with perforation, upset all your customers :P 10:20:21 i thought about that, too 10:20:34 (because I bet people will be annoyed and worry about cheating when the card borders aren't all smooth 10:20:37 ) 10:20:37 not directly together but to a small strip in the middle 10:21:03 hah, people that do that tend to use card sleaves anyway 10:21:08 int-e: hmm 10:21:30 myname: but not necessarily opaque sleeves 10:22:46 marketing has to appeal to players who want to consider collecting and don't yet want to buy a ton of opaque sleeves, since they cost more than thin transparent sleeves 10:22:55 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:23:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:23:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:24:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:25:51 wib_jonas: Actually I guess if you'd make a pre-stenciled frame for a pair of cards held in just two points, people might be happy enough. It works for cardboard playing pieces in many commercial board games after all. 10:26:45 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days). 10:27:22 anybody here has an opinion about zenonzard? 10:27:30 int-e: are those cardboard playing pieces that need to be shuffled and then indistinguishable, without putting them inside a fancy scrabble bag? 10:27:45 Carcassone tiles come pre-cut so they look the same 10:30:54 -!- TheLie has joined. 10:31:18 wib_jonas: As I recall it they come in a cardboard grame but are all attached to that the same way (just two spots, easy to break). 10:31:37 what is the square root of the language of squarefree words 10:31:45 But maybe Carcassonne was an exception. I don't know this for any specific game. 10:31:56 rain1: irrational 10:32:28 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:32:45 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:33:11 " [...] Apparently there is also no concrete example of a context-free grammar for a non-deterministic-context-free language?" => s -> a | c; a -> epsilon | C a | D a | A a B a; c -> epsilon | A c | B c | C c D c; the language of strings where either A and B are balanced matching parenthesis or C and D are balanced matching parenthesis. 10:34:38 or wait.... 10:34:48 maybe that can be parsed with a deterministic machine? let me think 10:37:31 no, I think it can't be. without backtracking or arbitrary lookahead you can't tell which of AB or CD will match, so if a long prefix of the string has both AB and CD balanced so far, then the state plus stack of the machine would have to track both the depth of A and the depth of C of the prefix, be able to increment and decrement either at any 10:37:31 time depending on the input, and a stack machine can't do that. 10:39:45 this is effectively the trick I want to use to make Consumer Society intrinsically nondeterministic context free, though I use a larger alphabet 10:39:53 wib_jonas: woah, using lower case for non-terminals and upper case for terminals is confusing. 10:40:12 int-e: sorry 10:40:30 but I think that's the way at least one book notates then 10:40:32 them 10:40:52 there's always somebody that breaks the conventions FOR NO GOOD REASON 10:41:10 doesn't make it right :P 10:41:55 ok, make it S -> A | C; A -> epsilon | c A | d A | a A b A; C -> epsilon | a C | b C | c C d C; the language of strings where either a and b are balanced matching parenthesis or c and d are balanced matching parenthesis. 10:42:35 idea: de Bruijn indices, except they're for nonterminals 10:42:52 (yes, yes, I know) 10:43:24 of course this is true for Consumer Society only if you look at it at just the right level, because after parsing it is Turing-complete and so it's uncomputable to determine if the program will run into a semantic error at runtime 10:47:27 -!- t20kdc has joined. 10:51:31 cpressey: hmm 11:01:13 -!- TheLie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:14:38 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:17:48 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:18 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74727&oldid=74693 * DmilkaSTD * (-2155) disaster 11:41:37 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74728&oldid=74727 * DmilkaSTD * (+130) +nums 11:42:40 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74729&oldid=74728 * DmilkaSTD * (+8) +
s 11:43:39 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 11:44:48 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74730&oldid=74729 * DmilkaSTD * (+229) +sign nums 11:50:19 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74731&oldid=74730 * DmilkaSTD * (+404) +chars 11:55:20 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74732&oldid=74731 * DmilkaSTD * (+259) +upchars 12:05:00 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74733&oldid=74732 * DmilkaSTD * (+1315) +godchars 12:08:59 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74734&oldid=74733 * DmilkaSTD * (+47) fix 12:10:36 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74735&oldid=74734 * DmilkaSTD * (+12) +see 12:12:12 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74736&oldid=74735 * DmilkaSTD * (+34) +see 12:17:02 [[Talk:SASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74737 * DmilkaSTD * (+74) Created page with "Why does this exist? --~~~~" 12:17:26 [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74738&oldid=74724 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Implementations */ cat 12:19:23 [[Talk:Snowflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74739&oldid=74614 * Orisphera * (+14) 12:23:24 [[TECO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74740&oldid=74718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 12:29:27 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74741&oldid=74440 * DmilkaSTD * (-3402) I actually finished it 12:49:26 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74742&oldid=74719 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+965) 12:57:33 [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74743&oldid=68579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) cats,misc 12:58:18 [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74744&oldid=74743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 12:58:40 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:59:42 [[@text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74745&oldid=74744 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) cafts 13:11:17 [[BitChanger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74746&oldid=74509 * Chris Pressey * (+814) /* Computational class */ Sketch what the reduction would look like 13:12:45 [[BitChanger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74747&oldid=74746 * Chris Pressey * (+277) Add command table. 13:13:39 [[Nil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74748&oldid=65572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* External resources */ cats 13:14:42 [[Etcha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74749&oldid=40945 * Chris Pressey * (+46) This language is Turing-complete. 13:16:24 [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74750&oldid=72070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* 6969 Assembler */ cats 13:18:30 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74751&oldid=74742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1279) Blanked the page 13:18:54 [[Something positive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74752 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1494) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''something positive''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Overview== something positive is a [[string]]-[[rewriting]] language. Programs take..." 13:19:11 [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74753&oldid=74752 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ 13:19:39 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74754&oldid=74714 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* S */ 13:20:55 [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74755&oldid=74351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Interpreter in C (solo.h) */ 13:21:33 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74756&oldid=74715 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* Languages */ 13:25:02 [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74757&oldid=74753 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) /* Examples */ 13:25:38 [[Something positive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74758&oldid=74757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Overview */ 13:26:36 [[Assembly code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74759&oldid=8592 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) dstnguish 13:26:43 [[Assembly code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74760&oldid=74759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 13:27:44 [[Machine code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74761&oldid=8591 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) user A lamnguage 13:28:55 [[SASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74762&oldid=68585 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) 13:34:36 [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74763&oldid=74741 * DmilkaSTD * (+3757) Language remastered 13:35:29 [[Vowels]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74764&oldid=71021 * Chris Pressey * (+49) disambiguate 13:36:02 [[Vowels (2017)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74765&oldid=52584 * Chris Pressey * (+48) disambiguate 13:39:36 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74766&oldid=74763 * DmilkaSTD * (-3) fixed some bad grammar 13:43:05 [[Vowels (2017)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74767&oldid=74765 * Chris Pressey * (+400) Add computational class sketch. 13:52:45 [[V (FMota)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74768&oldid=50732 * Chris Pressey * (+29) +year 13:57:17 https://xkcd.com/2309 esolanging much, eh? 13:57:29 [[Nhohnhehr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74769&oldid=40957 * Chris Pressey * (+41) +cat (We still don't know...) 14:02:44 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 14:14:43 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74770&oldid=74308 * Quadril-Is * (+48) 14:24:38 [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74771&oldid=69355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello, World! */ cat 14:25:04 [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74772&oldid=74771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 14:27:22 [[Nestplate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74773&oldid=57390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 14:36:00 [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74774&oldid=73258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) 14:52:18 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:05:38 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74775&oldid=74766 * DmilkaSTD * (-131) fix 15:15:38 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.). 15:15:46 [[Marbelous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74776&oldid=55527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Examples */ cat 15:17:22 -!- shikhin has joined. 15:22:26 [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74777&oldid=74775 * DmilkaSTD * (+648) +,const vars 15:24:15 [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74778&oldid=74683 * DmilkaSTD * (+70) 15:40:51 [[Java']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74779&oldid=72628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) cats ++ bold ++ link 15:41:36 [[GreenBerry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74780&oldid=70800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* External resources */ cats 15:47:47 -!- MDead has joined. 15:50:14 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:50:23 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 15:55:15 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 15:56:08 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74781&oldid=74777 * DmilkaSTD * (+290) +break bcause i'm lazy 15:56:38 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74782&oldid=74781 * DmilkaSTD * (-3) -spaces 15:56:49 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74783&oldid=74770 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1040) 15:57:13 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74784&oldid=74783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) 15:57:25 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74785&oldid=74784 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) 15:58:49 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74786&oldid=74782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Break */ links 16:10:59 -!- MDead has joined. 16:11:14 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:11:15 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 16:54:54 -!- rain1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:55:30 -!- rain1 has joined. 16:56:12 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74787&oldid=74690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+406) /* Operator */ 17:10:31 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74788&oldid=74787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+234) /* Operator */ 17:11:58 [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74789&oldid=74786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Memory management */ 17:16:04 [[Java'']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74790&oldid=21447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) stub + cats 17:17:19 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:27:07 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:31:21 -!- Cale has joined. 17:35:37 what control flow would you suggest for a language with values from the unit disc? (z ∈ C with |z| ≤ 1, though not arbitrary ones, to allow implementation: either usual float pairs, or cyclotomics, or something else) 17:49:56 Complex Fractran? :D 17:53:38 Oh man, you could do fractran on arbitrary number fields and interpret the word "integer" to mean "element of the ring of integers of the number field" 18:03:24 O_O 18:49:07 [[Conditional brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74791&oldid=71597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) cats + links + bold + fix headers 18:56:14 [[InterpretMe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74792&oldid=57700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) cats 18:57:06 [[ODDBALL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74793&oldid=58454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */ cat 18:59:41 [[HELP (Preprocessor)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74794&oldid=37175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) cats + bold 19:00:23 [[HELP (Preprocessor)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74795&oldid=74794 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* See also */ cux 19:04:13 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:04:25 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74796&oldid=64614 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Computational Properties */ 19:05:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:05:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:15:09 [[Pointer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74797&oldid=8512 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) 19:15:28 -!- ZippyMagician has joined. 19:15:31 [[Call stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74798&oldid=60471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 19:17:01 -!- ZippyMagician has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:17:16 [[Call stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74799&oldid=74798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38) /* Esotericization */ 19:17:47 [[Call stack/Manipulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74800&oldid=46064 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) 19:23:10 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74801&oldid=74785 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 19:26:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74802&oldid=74801 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2307) 19:32:38 -!- craigo has joined. 19:33:27 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74803&oldid=74802 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 19:35:30 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74804&oldid=74803 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 19:42:04 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74805&oldid=74804 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 19:44:26 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74806&oldid=74726 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 19:46:32 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74807&oldid=74805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) 19:48:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:48:57 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74808&oldid=74807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) 19:54:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:55:11 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74809&oldid=74808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) 20:01:48 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:13:03 [[Intolerant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74810&oldid=34474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Potential Errors */ cat 20:13:18 [[Intolerant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74811&oldid=74810 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) 20:24:19 [[Ni]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74812&oldid=74474 * DeybisMelendez * (-132) 20:37:17 [[Ni]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74813&oldid=74812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) /* Computational class */ 20:46:23 [[Grime MC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74814&oldid=67949 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* External resources */ 20:47:01 [[Chespirito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74815&oldid=74527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Implementation */ equiv->deriv + cats 20:48:24 are there any news since that old Baez post about whether there is a “golden type” Φ such that Φ² ≅ 1 + Φ with a natural isomorphism (natural like in seven trees in one)? 20:48:46 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74816&oldid=74788 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* kcufnairB */ 20:49:34 an arithmetical error (alas!) and an unique type deliver the solution: (1 + U)² ≅ 1 + 2U ❝≅❞ 1 + (1 + U) (what was I thinking?!) 20:55:52 double mistake: I thought this still gives a correct solution when U is a singleton, but no, U ≇ 1 for the same reason I remembered it here, becase of its square. And anyway that’d be boring: one wants to find an infinite Φ 20:57:32 If it's a natural isomorphism then Φ should be a functor, right? 21:01:54 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74817&oldid=74751 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+774) 21:03:26 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:13:32 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74818&oldid=74817 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* The blues instruction */ 21:14:27 -!- dog_star has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:14:32 shachaf: mm I don’t know if a concrete type may be a functor. In the tree case though, T = μx. T′x where T′ is indeed a functor 1 + X² 21:14:40 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74819&oldid=74818 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Interpreter */ 21:15:19 -!- dog_star has joined. 21:16:37 yeah I think one may ask about a functor F such that (μx. Fx)² ≅ 1 + (μx. Fx) though I’m not sure if we can take μx off and simplify this 21:19:45 suppose now U³ ≅ 0. Then (A + U + U²)² ≅ A² + 2AU + (1 + A) U² = hmm no. Let’s try infinite series 21:24:06 ha, that just delegates the problem to finding the first coefficient of the series with the same property 21:24:55 Well, you care about the shape, not just the cardinality. 21:25:13 yes 21:26:49 in one place there were stated such an isomorphism requires inspecting no more than a fixed amount of data constructors 21:26:59 I wasn't talking about the functor F that you're taking the fixed point of, but about the functor e.g. Tree a = Leaf | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) 21:28:31 isn’t that just a constant functor (technically, up to replacing Leaf with Leaf a, but they should be equivalent) 21:28:41 Er, I meant "Leaf a". 21:28:56 ah 21:29:21 wait, and I lied, of course versions with Leaf and Leaf a are different 21:30:06 Anyway I'd be pretty surprised if you figured out a type that has this property. 21:30:35 I would be too! Now I have no hope after series failed me 21:31:03 I mean, of course there's an isomorphism between 1 + Nat and Nat^2. That's why you need naturality. 21:33:22 I had not much hope from the start as I haven’t got as many mathematician friend as Baez does, so if they haven’t figured it out in several weeks or years (supposing that after that they either forgot ot he wouldn’t append a note to that old post when the solution would be found), how would I in a burst of procrastinative initiative (at most a couple of hours)? 21:33:32 s/friend/friends 21:34:29 here’s another question, maybe more fruitful: how would one prove that there’s no such type? 21:34:44 (in a suitable type theory) 21:36:06 so we could say Φ is almost surely not a regular tree type or what are they called (not a polynomial nor a recursive type involving polynomials) 21:37:14 though I’m not entirely sure about recursive polynomial types. I thought any of them is isomorphic to some series, and if that’s not the case… 21:37:56 and maybe unique types couldn’t save us either 21:38:33 er, “generalized unique types”, like U such that U³ ≅ 0 21:38:40 nilpotent types 21:39:15 and on that my knowledge of various type-algebraic things ends 21:41:25 well, also I heard about realizing negative and quotient types—and they say that’s hard on its own and then so much as impossible if one wants to have both together 21:48:13 also of note: it seems one can’t talk about an antidiagonal X^2̲ (and a diagonal in first place) of X² if not (Eq X). For the same reason one can’t talk about an upper antidiagonal X^2̲ / 2! ≡ binom(X, 2) if not (Ord X). That shouldn’t directly relate to the previous, I’m just reading old sigfpe 21:49:03 (one can replace 2 with n here) 21:50:46 @ask rain1 BTW what did you wanted symmetric polynomials for? Just curious 21:50:46 Consider it noted. 21:55:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:55:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:58:20 -!- t20kdc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:25:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:25:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:51:09 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:52:10 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:52:34 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:04:14 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:04:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:06:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:37:27 [[Losescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74820&oldid=61562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) 23:38:04 [[Losescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74821&oldid=74820 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* It does the Achermann function below: */ 23:38:44 [[Losescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74822&oldid=74821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) /* Turing-completeness */ cats 23:39:14 [[2D-BCT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74823&oldid=55748 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Wierdness */ cats 23:40:21 [[1st-Worst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74824&oldid=65102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) 23:45:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:48:06 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:59:09 -!- zzo38 has joined.