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04:05:43 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74278&oldid=74139 * Bigyihsuan * (+840) v1.4.0 release
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05:32:14 <zzo38> Do you think the graphical effects in TeXnicard are sufficient? In addition to all of the graphical effects of level 3 PostScript, it also supports alpha transparency, combining modes (min or max), a layer buffer (with eight monochrome layers used for controlling the areas of certain effects), a compositing buffer, and custom compositing modes (definable as arbitrary functions of three inputs).
05:33:55 <zzo38> Also the custom compositing modes actually can have two outputs, one being the normal output and the second output used for saturation adjustment. Furthermore, you can define up to four separations in addition to CMYK (for a total of eight).
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07:47:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that serious (like one of these stupid mobile phones where you can't install sane software) or is it ironic like when windows 10 users complain that their OS is bad at emoji?
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07:48:38 <b_jonas> you can always just make HackEso say the emojis for you
07:50:05 <b_jonas> I mean, if you can run an IRC client, you can probably copy-paste characters from a webpage too, unless it's some really crazy apple phone version
07:54:17 <arseniiv> b_jonas: more or less. Win7 has no capability to make composite fonts AFAIK, so I can’t make a font to include colorful emoji, and maybe of the kind I like more of them all, and also include other fancy unicode stuff and readable latin, cyrillic and greek. I heard Win10 has composite font support but I’m reluctant to upgrade still
07:55:17 <arseniiv> I don’t want to search in all places all the stuff I’ll need to switch off in Win10 and another stuff to make it more like Win7 in a couple of details and UI
07:55:39 <arseniiv> if it would magically set up this way I’d upgrade
07:57:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: doesn't it still run libraries like Pango that automatically substitute fonts in your browser?
07:57:36 <arseniiv> about input, you’re right, and I even may add to my AutoHotkey script, though it would need to be autogenerated and it wouldn’t be that useful without search
07:58:18 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yes, it should be able, though I didn’t test what does Firefox use in Win7
07:59:32 <arseniiv> they aren’t usually the most UX-y kind
07:59:55 <b_jonas> (someone should write a sane one)
08:00:16 <b_jonas> (but the hard part is to run the server)
08:00:47 <b_jonas> anyway, why am I asking this? I don't want people to use emojis in IRC
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08:33:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74279&oldid=61421 * Chris Pressey * (+552) Add a very strong version of what ais523 said, and also a completely alternative viewpoint.
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08:47:43 <cpressey> I am trying very hard not to be here
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09:09:42 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74280&oldid=74241 * Chris Pressey * (+293) Some clarification after discussion with arseniiv (but probably not enough, yet).
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09:11:16 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I am trying very hard not to be here => :D
09:11:53 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> anyway, why am I asking this? I don't want people to use emojis in IRC => I was wondering too
09:35:04 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74281&oldid=74280 * Chris Pressey * (+441) Describe two possible modes for handling nondeterminism.
09:56:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem/Sketch of a Tandem Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74282 * Chris Pressey * (+1669) Sketch a Tandem interpreter.
09:57:55 <cpressey> arseniiv: Maybe https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tandem/Sketch_of_a_Tandem_Interpreter will help clarify things?
10:04:10 <cpressey> I called that "pseudo-code" but it should really be runnable if all the helper functions were defined.
10:07:39 <arseniiv> cpressey: oh! BTW did you see my yesterday’s implementation?
10:12:18 <arseniiv> this pseudocode is way simpler than what I’ve done with disjointness checking :D
10:13:30 <arseniiv> ah, no, I now see `case intersect (labelsOf r1) (labelsOf r2) of`
10:14:07 <cpressey> arseniiv: No, I missed that -- I don't always read the logs. Actually I'm reading the logs now and I can't seem to find it?
10:14:31 <arseniiv> but your sketch doesn’t allow R | R = R
10:15:07 <arseniiv> here it is: https://hatebin.com/gnbvdqgvrh
10:15:38 <arseniiv> though I should find the place in the logs, there was something else
10:17:51 <arseniiv> starts here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-06-22.html#lId ← there is a error in the push-down automaton example at esowiki
10:19:45 <cpressey> Argh yes, I see. Thanks for spotting that, I'll fix it.
10:20:48 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74283&oldid=74281 * Chris Pressey * (+0) /* Implementing Automata in Tandem */ Fix PDA example - thanks go to arseniiv for noticing and reporting
10:23:46 <cpressey> As to R | R = R, you're right, my sketch fails to get that, thanks again. I'll think about how to fix it.
10:25:33 <arseniiv> I used a “world diff”, all replacements which were made by the rule, and tested their disjointness
10:26:06 <arseniiv> though I think I should have simplified things a bit
10:26:49 <arseniiv> in my code there are two different representations now I think for the same thing (such a diff and a set of redexes)
10:27:07 <arseniiv> hm wait they aren’t even redexes, they are (label, replacement result) pairs
10:27:26 <arseniiv> I’ll need to rename things a bit too, then
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10:43:03 <cpressey> <b_jonas> cpressey: that is not easy though. if the language doesn't fail on any of the trivial tests [...] then it's hard to prove that the language is not Turing-complete <== Such a trivial test is exactly what I was talking about though
10:45:01 <cpressey> One problem with "read a string of any length on the input and accept iff it's a palindrome" is that many esolangs don't have input
11:03:22 <cpressey> Many do have some form of output though, and for those maybe an enumeration problem would work.
11:05:07 <cpressey> There is a single Turing machine that writes each of the prime numbers on its output tape. It never halts: it is always the case that, some finite time after it has written a number, it will write another, larger number.
11:05:41 <cpressey> If you can't write a program that does this in your language, then your language is not Turing-complete.
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11:09:52 <cpressey> Even simpler: there is a TM that writes every integer onto its output tape, in binary: 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, ...
11:14:04 <t20kdc> ...so... WebAssembly is not Turing-complete?
11:15:33 <cpressey> I don't know WebAssembly but, probably not, no.
11:16:54 <cpressey> If a language can only address a fixed amount of memory, it's not Turing-complete.
11:17:26 <t20kdc> it kinda sounds like there needs to be some sort of "good enough" rating - like a more realized set of requirements for the classification of bounded-storage-machine
11:17:57 <t20kdc> ("boolfuck with at least 256 cells" for example)
11:18:26 <t20kdc> the problem is, then the requirement becomes a bit arbitrary, but... the alternatives make provability a little hard
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11:32:57 <cpressey> t20kdc: The phrase "usable for programming" is sometimes used in the esolang community, but as concepts go it is very informal.
11:35:09 <cpressey> The complement, "unusable for programming", might be less contentious, since there is actually an "Unusable for programming" category on the wiki.
11:35:11 <Arcorann> Obviously for real-world languages to be Turing-complete they need to run in an idealised environment
11:35:59 <Arcorann> I don't know enough about WebAssembly to know what t20kdc was referring to in that comment, some clarification would be appreciated
11:36:04 <cpressey> Not sure what that means. Python is Turing-complete even if no one ever runs a Python program ever.
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11:36:21 <t20kdc> Arcorann: To summarize: Pointer size.
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11:44:44 <Arcorann> What I was trying to say was that if WebAssembly was modified to allow arbitrary addressing of memory (abstracting the restriction away) then it would become Turing-complete, but this isn't necessary for real-world programming
11:46:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vera98x * New user account
11:50:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74284&oldid=74209 * Vera98x * (+118)
11:51:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74285&oldid=74284 * Vera98x * (-22)
11:53:46 <cpressey> A variant of WebAssembly which does not limit the number of bits that can appear in a pointer at runtime is probably Turing-complete, yes.
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12:11:44 <esowiki> [[VES++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74286 * Vera98x * (+1506) Created page with "VES++ has included the most common languages from west-europe (and for some random reason the turkish language is also included). This way many people are able to understand a..."
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12:49:22 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey I simplified my impl at https://hatebin.com/gzvnokaiqj
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13:18:33 <cpressey> arseniiv: cool. lambdabot didn't notify me. had to read it in the log :)
13:18:55 <cpressey> Oh NOW it did. Because I mentioned its name?
13:26:09 <esowiki> [[VES++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74290&oldid=74289 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+530)
13:27:00 <cpressey> It notified me yesterday without me mentioning its name
13:30:13 <esowiki> [[VES++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74291&oldid=74290 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) /* Hello World */
13:31:16 <arseniiv> I remember being notified once or twice but don’t think I know the reason it was so
13:31:32 <esowiki> [[Robolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74292&oldid=69237 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Commands */ you missed one
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13:39:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:0x29A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74295&oldid=8312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) unsigned
13:44:24 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74296&oldid=71121 * Chris Pressey * (+114) Ruthlessly edit the first section.
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13:46:57 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74298&oldid=74296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
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14:19:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/AllTheCats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74303&oldid=74045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Derivatives */
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14:26:10 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74304&oldid=74298 * Chris Pressey * (+327) More ruthless editing.
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14:31:40 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74306&oldid=73317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13)
14:33:52 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74307&oldid=74304 * Chris Pressey * (+105) Example code in triples; rephrase
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14:53:33 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74310&oldid=74307 * Chris Pressey * (+180) De-sugar "Hello, world!" example.
15:06:07 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74311&oldid=74310 * Chris Pressey * (-1307) Remove sugar unneeded for example. Move implementation links to external resources.
15:07:28 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74312&oldid=74311 * Chris Pressey * (+0) /* External resources */ Fix nested list
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15:17:28 <esowiki> [[Number-rock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74320&oldid=45110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
15:17:42 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74321&oldid=74312 * Chris Pressey * (+948) Sketch Turing-completeness proof (using Minsky machines). Happy for someone to fill in more details here.
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17:10:03 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74333&oldid=71472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29)
17:10:39 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74334&oldid=71409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* See Also */
17:17:16 <esowiki> [[Shishkirism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74335&oldid=66712 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) wikify + cats
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17:37:04 <esowiki> [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74340&oldid=46029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) cats+wip
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18:06:41 <int-e> arseniiv: you shouldn't have to mention it by name, but you have to say something on a channel it's in
18:06:57 <int-e> (or, maybe, message it privately? dunno.)
18:10:19 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I usually ask lambdabot @messages, though if I wouldn’t need to send it each time (as I thought) it would be very nice! Now that you said I just need to say hi here, that’s way better
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19:04:22 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74346&oldid=74270 * Dion * (+35)
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19:12:43 <arseniiv> how would you approach the following?: for a positive integer n, find a pair of positive integers a, b such that n = a^2 b and b is square-free?
19:13:48 <rain1> I think there will not be that many possible values of a so I would check a=1,2,..,floor(sqrt(n))
19:14:13 <rain1> is that the right way?
19:14:27 <kspalaiologos> I've got a concern today about implementing stack-based effective values for asm2bf
19:14:33 <arseniiv> (the author of that constructible number Python module uses this for economy of future computations, I think: adding √b should be better than adding √n)
19:14:52 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_of_an_integer I found this
19:14:54 <kspalaiologos> it is as follows - the stack internally looks like 0 5 1 6 1 7 1 [0]... when there are 5, 6 and 7 pushed
19:15:10 <kspalaiologos> now, how to extract the nth element from the end from this data structure
19:15:30 <kspalaiologos> hopefully without relying on more than two zero cells after the stack end
19:15:55 <rain1> > Currently, no feasible (polynomial time) algorithm is known for recognizing squarefree integers or for computing the squarefree part of an integer. In fact it may be the case that this problem is no easier than the general problem of integer factorization.
19:15:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:16:10 <arseniiv> rain1: something like that is written but there is a todo try better. I suggested precomputing decompositions for a bunch of small n’s but I have no idea if it’s actually useful
19:16:11 <kspalaiologos> if N is known at compile time, that's easy, but this problem has been troubling me for some time now with variable arguments
19:17:26 <rain1> i suppose if you have a list of 100 primes, you can pull the square part of those primes off
19:17:44 <rain1> and then if you have anything left use a slower algorithm for it, but you can start after prime 100
19:18:03 <rain1> give p it's fast to find the biggest r, p^r | n i think
19:18:05 <arseniiv> rain1: w-wait I think b from that decomposition doesn’t relate anyhow directly to the radical?
19:18:46 <rain1> N = a^2 b, b = N/a^2 = rad(N) doesn't it?
19:19:02 <arseniiv> for example rad (4 ⋅ 9) = 6 but b = 1
19:20:50 <arseniiv> and it seems b shouldn’t give us any hints how to compute rad?.. We have rad n = lcm(rad a, b) though if I’m not mistaken
19:21:24 <arseniiv> as we definitely have rad b = b, yes
19:25:01 <zzo38> Due to something I was working on (Digi-RGB), there is the need to compute the square root and squarefree core in O(n) time, although the squarefree core is known to be one of four possibilities, and the input number is known to be less than an implementation-defined maximum.
19:26:05 <rain1> what are the four possibilites?
19:26:07 <zzo38> Additionally, if it is possible to do, the computation may begin before the input number is known.
19:26:37 <zzo38> rain1: The four possibilities are 1, 3, 5, and 10.
19:27:55 <arseniiv> rain1: the radical page though gave me a hint I should look for a square-free part. I even found something, let’s see…
19:28:23 <arseniiv> zzo38 already named that though, while I searched
19:28:37 <rain1> I suppose the radical helps you find the square-part very fast
19:28:56 <rain1> via gcd(rad^(2r), n)
19:33:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: getting the square part of a number? hmm... that's either easy or hard, but I can't remember which. I should look it up.
19:35:04 <arseniiv> “No algorithm is known for computing any of these square-free factors which is faster than computing the complete prime factorization. In particular, there is no known polynomial-time algorithm for computing the square-free part of an integer, nor even for determining whether an integer is square-free.[1]” <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-free_integer> where [1] = Adleman, Leonard M.; Mccurley, Kevin S. "Open Problems in Number Theoretic Compl
19:35:04 <arseniiv> exity, II". Lecture Notes in Computer Science: 9
19:36:49 <zzo38> (Note in Digi-RGB, the input number will effectively be given in unary, and you may read it up to twice.)
19:40:47 <arseniiv> OEIS gives funny a(n) = rad n / a(n / rad n) for the squarefree part
19:43:53 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, then I don't have to look it up
19:44:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: note that there is an algorithm to find the squarefree part of a polynomial IIRC
19:45:02 <b_jonas> you can of course always try a full prime decomposition, that tends to work well for non-large numbers
19:45:11 <b_jonas> there are decent implementations for it
19:47:49 <b_jonas> and if you have a part that you can't factorize, check if it's a square, in which case you know the answer
19:50:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is searching for integer square root of an exact square faster than trying to decompose it without checking if it’s a square?
19:50:38 <int-e> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/16098/complexity-of-testing-integer-square-freeness has some rather discouraging things to say about this
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19:53:02 <zzo38> Actually there are other restrictions in the case of Digi-RGB too, for example, it is known that the input number will always be a multiple of four.
19:56:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, taking square root of an integer is very fast
19:57:17 <b_jonas> so yes, if you think your number is likely square, you can try that first before trying to decompose it
19:58:12 <zzo38> What reasons do you have to needing to compure squarefree cores?
20:01:29 <arseniiv> zzo38: in the algorithm for taking sqrt of constructible numbers, one frequently needs to know if a rational number is a perfect square (and what’s its square root), but there would be slightly less computations afterwards if one instead asks about this decomposition
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20:23:17 <rain1> isn't it easy to check for a square though?
20:26:15 <zzo38> I don't know. I believe it can be computed in O(n) though, since you can start counting 1, and then count 3 more, count 5 more, count 7 more, count 9 more, etc.
20:26:27 <zzo38> I don't know about O(1), though.
20:26:46 <int-e> rain1: what if the square is multiplied by 2038074743?
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