←2020-05-12 2020-05-13 2020-05-14→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:19:57 <orbitaldecay> Antebrationist: cool! i'll check it out!
00:20:25 <orbitaldecay> Is salpynx around?
00:23:30 <orbitaldecay> While I'm pinging everyone, int-e I had a thought today about treating reversible bitfuck as a group, which reduces the picofuck problem to that of finding a generating set of order 2
00:23:48 <orbitaldecay> Do you think that makes sense?
00:38:16 <zzo38> I thinki it is worth trying it, I suppose.
00:38:16 <zzo38> I don't know if that will work or not, but you can try.
00:38:16 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I'm planning on it
00:38:17 <zzo38> OK
00:38:17 <orbitaldecay> Looking for algorithms to find the minimal generating set of a group
00:38:31 <orbitaldecay> Gets tricky for infinite groups
00:39:53 <zzo38> Yes, I would suppose so.
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01:48:04 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72179 * RocketRace * (+181) Short summary.
01:49:28 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72180&oldid=72179 * RocketRace * (+84) Discord
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02:03:22 <salpynx> hi
02:05:45 <zzo38> Hello
02:06:06 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: rain1 shared a link here to Dehn functions, which got me investigating groups too
02:07:00 <salpynx> hah, I misread timestamps on the logs, I thought orbitaldecay was just here
02:16:32 <salpynx> I have a qn.: if <*,{,}|∅> is the free group on the nanofuck alphabet, how would you define the group of syntactically valid nanofuck using similar notation <*,{,}|R> where the relations R represent the CFG S → SS | ε | * | {S} ?
02:17:27 <salpynx> Does this even make sense, or am I mixing oil and water?
02:18:29 <esowiki> [[Psyche]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72181 * IFcoltransG * (+513) I will not apologise.
02:19:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72182&oldid=72113 * IFcoltransG * (+13) /* P */ + Psyche, a mapping of SKI onto the Freudian trichotomy of the mind.
02:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:IFcoltransG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72183&oldid=70727 * IFcoltransG * (+136) /* Published Esoteric Languages */ + Psyche
02:22:11 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72184&oldid=72177 * Salpynx * (-1) typo
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03:02:23 <zzo38> I suppose I understand the last part at least.
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04:24:28 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72185&oldid=72184 * Salpynx * (+2903) at this point I just want to make a time-cube joke at my own expense... this all needs filtering down and editing <sigh>
04:29:48 <zzo38> Is there a kind of picture compression for multiple versions of a picture at different resolutions?
04:49:03 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72186&oldid=72185 * Salpynx * (+387) /* Conclusion WRT 's significance for simple translations */ summing up attempt
05:02:51 <imode> nice... got an interpreter off the ground.
05:02:57 <imode> woop woop.
05:03:11 <salpynx> MS .ico and Amiga icon files come to mind as containers for multiple images, but that's not compression. Googling "multiresolution compression" returns summaries of inaccessible academic papers that cover the idea in theory
05:06:44 <salpynx> I think I'm wrong about Amiga icons being multi-res
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05:54:31 <imode> woop woop.
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07:43:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72187&oldid=71663 * YamTokTpaFa * (+333) [[INTERCAL|INTERCAL-72]]
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10:03:24 <esowiki> [[Casino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72188&oldid=72168 * Ais523 * (+106) /* Language Overview */ fix spec to match impl; the spec couldn't possibly be correct because its "RNG" alternated between two different values, I think the author confused the seeding operation with the next-integer operation
10:10:05 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72189&oldid=72140 * Emerald * (+67) /* Underground */
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10:20:47 <esowiki> [[Casino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72190&oldid=72188 * Ais523 * (+2382) TC with bignum cells
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11:17:35 <esowiki> [[Eniuq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72191&oldid=56986 * LegionMammal978 * (+42) fixed link
11:50:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72192&oldid=72176 * InfiniteDonuts * (+71)
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11:58:48 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: I think that we can just work with <*,{,}|∅> because unmatched parentheses can always be given a meaning rather than it being syntactically invalid
11:58:55 <esowiki> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72193&oldid=20042 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
12:03:13 <esowiki> [[Aeolbonn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72194&oldid=68989 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ it says in the description
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12:31:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72195&oldid=71904 * Orby * (+122)
12:33:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72196&oldid=72195 * Orby * (+114) /* Group formulation */ Adding links
12:36:15 <arseniiv_> hiellow
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12:38:27 <orbitaldecay> Okay, I think reversible bitfuck has the group presentation <a,b,c|a^2> and the PF problem can be reduced to the question, what is the rank of <a,b,c|a^2>?
12:39:03 <orbitaldecay> If we reformulate rbf s.t. unmatched parentheses have some simple meaning
12:56:54 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72197&oldid=71885 * Orby * (+278) /* Minimization */
12:58:05 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72198&oldid=72197 * Orby * (+58) /* Minimization */
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13:06:12 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72199&oldid=70443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Syntax */
13:28:12 <rain1> orbitaldecay: woah how did this connection with group theor come about?
13:28:54 <orbitaldecay> I was just thinking about how rbf is basically a group and that the minimization problem is essentially asking what the rank of that group is
13:29:11 <orbitaldecay> in a more general setting, the minimization problem is asking what the rank of a monoid is
13:29:14 <rain1> that is super interesting
13:29:20 <rain1> I have been learning about group theory
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13:29:43 <orbitaldecay> bonus
13:30:58 <orbitaldecay> another bonus from thinking of rbf as a group is that we know rbf is non-abelian, so rank(<a,b,c|a^2>) > 1
13:31:04 <orbitaldecay> so if PF exists, it is minimal
13:31:28 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higman%27s_embedding_theorem
13:32:02 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group#Novikov%E2%80%93Boone_theorem
13:33:31 <orbitaldecay> reading the same pages
13:33:45 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_representation is interesting too
13:34:16 <rain1> i want to think about this but im a bit preoccupied
13:34:32 <rain1> i think the full group presentation would include a very complex set of relations
13:34:46 <rain1> fully explaining how every command interacts with each other
13:35:14 <rain1> this connection could be very fruitful though, group homomorphism preserve a bunch of things
13:35:37 <rain1> so if any one of these things can be calculated for NF and PF and are different this would prove they cannot be simply translated
13:35:55 <orbitaldecay> we can always start with a less structured presentation and add structure as required
13:36:34 <orbitaldecay> <a,b,c|a^2> basically captures rbf. There are some other things that boil down to the identity like (+) etc. but it's not important if they're missed
13:36:47 <rain1> im sure you are right but i don't yet understand that idea
13:37:13 <orbitaldecay> maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong haha
13:37:28 <orbitaldecay> at the end of the day, we will know if we've found pf because the translation will work
13:38:08 <rain1> you just made me realize something important
13:38:15 <orbitaldecay> ?
13:38:25 <rain1> if reversible languages are groups, maybe that's why semigroups are used to study turing machines
13:38:58 <orbitaldecay> yep
13:43:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72200&oldid=71983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25)
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14:18:31 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72201&oldid=72198 * Orby * (-1) /* Minimization */
14:34:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72202&oldid=72196 * Orby * (+161) /* Group formulation */
14:34:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72203&oldid=72202 * Orby * (+7) /* Group formulation */
14:35:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72204&oldid=72203 * Orby * (+1) /* Group formulation */
14:44:42 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72205&oldid=72201 * Orby * (+5) /* Minimization */
14:48:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72206&oldid=72204 * Orby * (+19) /* Group formulation */
15:10:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72207&oldid=72205 * Orby * (+2) /* Minimization */
15:11:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72208&oldid=72207 * Orby * (+35) /* Minimization */
15:42:45 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72209&oldid=72208 * Orby * (+733)
15:44:01 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72210&oldid=72209 * Orby * (+22) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
15:48:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72211&oldid=72210 * Orby * (+72) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
15:50:44 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72212&oldid=72211 * Orby * (+14) /* Minimization */
16:01:53 <b_jonas> I just unironically sorted a table on seven key fields. And I think none of the seven are redundant.
16:03:12 <b_jonas> Admittedly it's an outer merge result, and the seventh key discriminates only the two rows from the right join part.
16:03:30 <b_jonas> s/outer merge/outer join/
16:06:59 <b_jonas> and then the first table of that outer join is also a left join, which accounts for one more sort key
16:22:16 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72213&oldid=72212 * Orby * (+133) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
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16:28:54 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72214 * Palaiologos * (+9526) Initial specification draft
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16:29:36 <kspalaiologos> I'm working on my first (decent) esoteric language
16:29:57 <kspalaiologos> any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above
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16:38:28 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72215&oldid=72214 * Palaiologos * (+0) 4.1.a refers to integers, not nil
16:43:19 <esowiki> [[User:Nobody]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72216&oldid=56536 * Nobody * (+25)
16:46:46 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72217&oldid=72213 * Orby * (+1303) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
16:47:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: doesn't asmbf count?
16:47:20 <kspalaiologos> uhm, I forgot about t his one
16:47:29 <kspalaiologos> but it's a kinda compiler of some sort to brainfuck
16:47:34 <kspalaiologos> and the abstraction isn't really this creative
16:47:38 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72218&oldid=72217 * Orby * (+2) /* Rank of monoid */
16:48:50 <b_jonas> I think it counts, unless you used it for production to write programs for a casino or something
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16:50:08 <b_jonas> but don't worry, for many people, the first esolang they create is a toy language that's much more silly than asmbf
16:50:17 <kspalaiologos> lol
16:50:28 <kspalaiologos> but, asm2bf wasn't meant to be this silly lol
16:52:02 <kspalaiologos> `? casino
16:52:07 <HackEso> casino? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:52:36 <kspalaiologos> didn't this shrug face change?
16:52:43 <kspalaiologos> I swear it used to be different before
16:54:58 <b_jonas> for me it's the either the unfinished toy language geo that I made for a univ course (you can tell it's unfinished: the name is geo becauase I wanted to add some geometry-related stuff like vector operations), or the really horribly unusable broken komalpsz language which may or may not be esoteric
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16:56:26 <gnu-nobody> Hey
16:57:04 <kspalaiologos> greets
16:58:21 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72219&oldid=72218 * Orby * (+489)
17:04:05 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72220&oldid=68790 * Orby * (+371) /* Formalizing requirements */
17:05:13 <b_jonas> I should probably make a wiki article about komalpsz, just as a bad example you shoud avoid
17:06:32 <kspalaiologos> why do you consider it bad
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17:09:44 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ask me again later if I don't get Back to that
17:09:52 <kspalaiologos> uhm, sure
17:10:13 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72221&oldid=72219 * Orby * (+24) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */ No longer overloading A for everything
17:11:28 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72222&oldid=72221 * Orby * (+0) /* Rank of monoid */
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17:15:05 <orbitaldecay> Hey rain1, check out the simple translation page
17:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72223&oldid=72167 * Emerald * (+140) Regret
17:15:08 <orbitaldecay> full of new goodies
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17:27:02 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72224&oldid=72222 * Orby * (+0) /* Rank of monoid */
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17:35:14 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above => please forgive me but I think the description is even harder to wrap one’s head about than with descriptions of my esolangs :) though I can definitely see a couple of alike typos in 8.1.b…8.1.j (7.1.a, 7.1.b are mentioned but probably 8.1.a, 8.1.b should be there instead)
17:35:46 <arseniiv> I’d say a couple of examples would make the deal way easier
17:35:53 <kspalaiologos> ah yes I forgot
17:36:10 <arseniiv> (I’m myself bad with examples BTW)
17:36:11 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72225&oldid=72215 * Palaiologos * (+0)
17:36:27 <kspalaiologos> the spec is confusing
17:36:31 <kspalaiologos> and the language isn't inished yet
17:36:40 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: also, voyad is a cool word, thanks
17:36:47 <kspalaiologos> there are at least 30 ways a `+' operator can behave
17:36:51 <kspalaiologos> depending on the current context
17:36:56 <arseniiv> oh
17:37:15 <kspalaiologos> ultimately this language will be harder than Malbolge, but also way cleaner
17:37:20 <kspalaiologos> and way more advanced
17:37:55 <arseniiv> (you wrote you’d like to break another unprogrammable language, do you make this one so that there would be something new to break?)
17:37:58 <arseniiv> oh!
17:38:14 <arseniiv> while I wrote the question you’ve already answered it
17:38:16 <kspalaiologos> yeah, obviously :d
17:38:32 <kspalaiologos> and I'd love to see bigger programs in it
17:38:43 <kspalaiologos> but I doubt someone would decide to take his time trying to work out... this
17:39:33 <arseniiv> hm how hard it is to design such a language?.. If that’s not too hard, I’d try to make something and see how fast you’re going to crack it, it might be fun
17:40:28 <arseniiv> though making the language cleaner would make the task harder
17:40:38 <kspalaiologos> hah, well, you need to actually ensure that the draft is consistent
17:41:12 <kspalaiologos> if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it
17:41:29 <kspalaiologos> also I already put a lot of work into the draft lol
17:41:33 <arseniiv> for now I try to write some parsing stuff in Python but later maybe I’ll try a thing or other
17:41:36 <kspalaiologos> I've been writing it and pondering for around 2 hours
17:41:54 <kspalaiologos> oh and I forgot about something
17:42:00 <kspalaiologos> why isn't there my Malbolge self interpreter linked on my user page
17:42:24 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it => yeah I like my descriptions be consistent. They should clearly define if something does something or is it an UB if it’s chosen so
17:43:31 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72226&oldid=70870 * Palaiologos * (+126)
17:43:42 <arseniiv> anyway have a good time with this language. I’ll maybe try to understand a later draft
17:44:27 <kspalaiologos> lol, thanks
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17:44:39 <kspalaiologos> but the draft in my predictions will grow massively
17:44:56 <kspalaiologos> just the list of adverbs or verbs for instance - there can be up to 512 of them
17:45:03 <kspalaiologos> and if I want to make my language fullfill the design goals
17:45:12 <gnu-nobody> it seems that i missed some discussion regarding palaiologos' lang
17:45:25 <kspalaiologos> I have to design 256 monadic, 256 niladic, 256 voyadic, 256 dyadic verbs and 256 adverbs
17:45:47 <gnu-nobody> and none of them should be no-ops?
17:46:02 <kspalaiologos> I plan on adding one eaisly accessible no-op
17:47:22 <kspalaiologos> my ideas include adding a verb related to generating stuff with mersenne twister (lmao)
17:47:30 <kspalaiologos> packing data, primitive compression
17:47:47 <kspalaiologos> the real hell will be implementing all of this, lol
17:48:10 <kspalaiologos> but with a draft it's always more enjoyable
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18:13:42 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72227&oldid=72224 * Orby * (+166)
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18:23:28 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72228&oldid=69536 * DmilkaSTD * (-1264) Replaced content with "==Favorite Esolang== I have many esolangs that I really like, probably my favorite is False and BitBitJump."
18:47:01 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72229&oldid=72226 * Palaiologos * (+79)
18:54:25 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72230&oldid=72225 * Palaiologos * (+2353) div/mul operators
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19:10:29 <gnu-nobody> palaiologos this thing is looking well currently
19:12:17 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72231 * Orby * (+2319) Creating Artemis
19:13:48 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72232&oldid=72017 * DmilkaSTD * (+146)
19:14:16 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72233&oldid=72231 * Orby * (+11) /* Defining procedures */
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19:26:14 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72234&oldid=71147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
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19:26:33 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72235&oldid=71145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
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19:36:00 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72236&oldid=72233 * Orby * (+129) /* Definition */
19:39:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hppavilion1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72237&oldid=50569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) unsigned
19:39:47 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72238&oldid=71752 * Orby * (+68)
19:41:59 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72239&oldid=72232 * DmilkaSTD * (+518)
19:42:28 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72240&oldid=72236 * Orby * (+1) /* Relationship to &brainfuck */
19:43:00 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72241&oldid=72240 * Orby * (+41)
19:44:09 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72242&oldid=72241 * Orby * (-31)
19:44:34 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72243&oldid=72242 * Orby * (+0) /* Defining procedures */
19:51:57 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72244&oldid=72243 * Orby * (+21) /* Defining procedures */
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20:24:14 <esowiki> [[-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1418) Created page with "'''-''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It uses only two characters, and -. ==Memory== - has four wrapping unsigned 8-bit cells, each of which sta..."
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20:26:03 <esowiki> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72246&oldid=72245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+229) /* Interpreter */
20:26:18 <esowiki> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72247&oldid=72246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter */
20:27:35 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72248&oldid=72182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Non-alphabetic */ + [[-]] and [[--Unless]]
20:28:13 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72249&oldid=71989 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Languages */
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23:08:59 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: you there?
23:09:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72250&oldid=71834 * Salpynx * (+3579) Explanation of deferred parsing tricks WRT simple-translations
23:09:52 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: yes, just finished typing up my latest thoughts on my ST tricks -- hopefully they make some kind of sense!
23:10:18 <orbitaldecay> cool! reading now. I also made a lot of progress today as recorded on the simple translation page.
23:15:03 <orbitaldecay> Okay, interesting. Need some time to digest that. I realized today that, for concatenative languages like bf-alikes, the minimization problem is essentially determining the rank of the monoid which is formed by the language
23:15:28 <orbitaldecay> on which a lot of work has been done
23:15:45 <orbitaldecay> in the special case of rbf, that monoid is actually a group, and finding the rank of a group is even easier
23:17:33 <salpynx> I need to keep reading up on groups -- I may have overlooked the significance of the 'reversible' part of RBF when it comes to groups too. I think you implied that it was significant?
23:18:16 <orbitaldecay> Groups are pretty straightforward to understand. It's a set with a binary operator that is associative, there's an identity, and every element has an inverse
23:19:20 <orbitaldecay> In the case of rbf, the binary operator is concatenation, the empty string is the identity, and the inverses go *: self inverse, >:<, (:)
23:20:02 <orbitaldecay> that doesn't totally nail it because there's more structure than that, but the rbf monoid is a quotient of that group
23:20:31 <orbitaldecay> the rank is just the cardinality of the smallest generating set, i.e. the smallest set of operators that can be combined to form any program
23:20:50 <orbitaldecay> rank is obviously <= 3 due to nanofuck
23:21:36 <salpynx> right, I hadn't focused on determining the specific inverses, that helps.
23:22:06 <orbitaldecay> yeah, once you identify the inverses then the simple translation problem can be viewed as a problem of group presentation
23:22:23 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:23:23 <orbitaldecay> so, rank(<a,b,c|a^2=empty string>) >= rank(rbf) basically
23:23:53 <orbitaldecay> unfortunately rank(<a,b,c|a^2>) = 3, so it doesn't actually tighten the bound from what we already know
23:24:19 <salpynx> That was where I stalled, applying what I understood about groups specifically to the RBF and PF examples. I got the free group structure, but wasn't sure if we needed more detail in the relations
23:24:48 <orbitaldecay> more generally, simple translations of concatenative languages can be viewed as a problem of monoid presentation (a monoid is just a group that doesn't necessarily have inverses)
23:25:19 <orbitaldecay> the a^2 = e relation doesn't actually help, but it is true (a = *)
23:28:18 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_monoid is a gold mine
23:28:20 <salpynx> I think I can put the investigation of simple-translation tricks behind me now. I feel like I understand why if PF is possible using 0 as a self-interpreter that is not as interesting a result as a more direct translation which you are aiming for. Now that I can separate the two approaches, it should be possible to prove whether a direct
23:28:20 <salpynx> translation or not.
23:28:38 <salpynx> is possible
23:29:16 <orbitaldecay> yes, I think I have also made progress. I realize now that what I was trying to capture with the definition of a simple translation is really just the problem of determining the rank of the monoid of a concatenative language
23:30:02 <orbitaldecay> which appears to be subtly different than the approach you've taken
23:30:18 <orbitaldecay> but, I'm satisfied with that framing of the problem
23:30:22 <orbitaldecay> thanks for your help
23:30:46 <salpynx> This group theory approach is interesting, and I'll try to catch up. I was reading a lot based on the link rain1 posted
23:31:31 <salpynx> I had assumed it was meant as a direct pointer to us looking into simple-translations because it seemed to fit so well, and was literally why I started on the group path the other day
23:31:47 <orbitaldecay> yeah, the crucial thing is understanding that a concatenative language is a monoid, and a reversible concatenative language is a group. Both of which have presentations, which are essentially what we are working with.
23:32:19 <salpynx> rain1: I'm not so sure you meant that Dehn fn link for us, and it was just something interesting you had been reading? :) Either way, thanks for the link!
23:32:47 <orbitaldecay> I took a couple courses in group theory in school. I have forgotten pretty much everything except the definition and the elementary results, but there is a lot of rich structure.
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23:33:35 <orbitaldecay> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3672804/minimal-generator-of-group?noredirect=1#comment7547744_3672804
23:33:39 <orbitaldecay> last link ;)
23:34:50 <orbitaldecay> But that stuff is really only applicable to concatenative languages. It just so happens that a lot of esolangs are concatenative.
23:35:07 <salpynx> I'm teaching myself as I go. It's something I have wanted to learn more about for some time, but I find I need a concrete project or problem I care about to apply the new knowledge to before I can get or retain it
23:35:49 <orbitaldecay> I've actually been looking for an application of group theory to esolangs for a while, so it's kind of ironic that I found out it's been hiding under my nose for years.
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23:37:45 <salpynx> yes, the concatenative aspect was something I thought was significant in my messy notes page on the wiki early on, I was struggling to articulate it and suspected my definition of concatenative was non-standard. I'm glad the concepts are coming together
23:38:12 <orbitaldecay> me too. it's exciting. this has opened up a whole new world of ideas to me.
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23:39:11 <orbitaldecay> the thing I didn't get for the longest time, is that you can think about the strings of the language as the elements of the group and not worry about the semantics at all, that's how you can view rbf as a group and things like ( and ) as elements
23:39:55 <orbitaldecay> I had tried to model bf +, -, <, > with linear operators before, but always got hung up when it came to the loop constructs
23:40:32 <orbitaldecay> anyway, yeah I'm stoked
23:41:01 <orbitaldecay> I'm looking for more concatenative programming languages. It appears most of them are stack based (for some reason), but bf is sort of accidentally concatenative
23:41:08 <orbitaldecay> and I think a lot of esolangs fall into this category
23:42:48 <salpynx> I found that the majority of my efforts in esolangs were tending towards silly encodings, which at one level I knew were somewhat trivial, but there was a kernel of something I really wanted to understand. My latest efforts have been in trying to program using Godel numbers and mathematical functions to join them,;I think a stronger understanding
23:42:48 <salpynx> of group theory will help me there
23:43:21 <orbitaldecay> how hip are you to lambda calculus?
23:43:25 <salpynx> There's something about the simple-translation concept that resonated with me there, but I'm still trying to put it all together
23:44:05 <orbitaldecay> it so happens that unlambda also has a nice monoid structure
23:46:22 <orbitaldecay> bbl
23:46:34 <salpynx> I have really wanted to work more with Iota / Jot / and Zot (so I could use non-bf based Godel numbers), but I was struggling to program anything directly using lamdba calculus. Unlambda seemed the obvious gateway to those, but I haven't tried coding anything substantial in it yet
23:50:02 <salpynx> I diverted from picking up low level lambda calculus style languages and have been playing with Bitwise Cyclic-tag, specifically implementing an purely arithmetic version, and trying to figure out how to program usefully in it.
23:50:41 <salpynx> ... then simple-translations distracted me
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