< 1589329197 987168 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antebrationist: cool! i'll check it out! < 1589329225 543269 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is salpynx around? < 1589329410 282576 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :While I'm pinging everyone, int-e I had a thought today about treating reversible bitfuck as a group, which reduces the picofuck problem to that of finding a generating set of order 2 < 1589329428 458812 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think that makes sense? < 1589330296 553457 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thinki it is worth trying it, I suppose. < 1589330296 902934 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if that will work or not, but you can try. < 1589330296 977705 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm planning on it < 1589330297 15704 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1589330297 53655 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking for algorithms to find the minimal generating set of a group < 1589330311 347191 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gets tricky for infinite groups < 1589330393 101428 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I would suppose so. < 1589330448 897896 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1589331980 480358 :LKoen!~LKoen___@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589333199 929416 :Antebrationist!ca9a868a@202-154-134-138.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589333793 406229 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1589334484 929990 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72179 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+181) 10Short summary. > 1589334568 253106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72180&oldid=72179 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+84) 10Discord < 1589335325 783308 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1589335383 911438 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589335402 669222 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1589335545 92641 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1589335566 207788 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: rain1 shared a link here to Dehn functions, which got me investigating groups too < 1589335620 551884 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, I misread timestamps on the logs, I thought orbitaldecay was just here < 1589336192 921404 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a qn.: if <*,{,}|∅> is the free group on the nanofuck alphabet, how would you define the group of syntactically valid nanofuck using similar notation <*,{,}|R> where the relations R represent the CFG S → SS | ε | * | {S} ? < 1589336247 108923 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this even make sense, or am I mixing oil and water? > 1589336309 868068 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Psyche14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72181 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+513) 10I will not apologise. > 1589336393 637566 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72182&oldid=72113 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+13) 10/* P */ + Psyche, a mapping of SKI onto the Freudian trichotomy of the mind. > 1589336474 742877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:IFcoltransG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72183&oldid=70727 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+136) 10/* Published Esoteric Languages */ + Psyche > 1589336531 230574 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72184&oldid=72177 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-1) 10typo < 1589336815 508255 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1589338943 586627 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I understand the last part at least. < 1589341096 520723 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589341122 979555 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1589341505 565810 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1589342659 808316 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1589343868 39883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72185&oldid=72184 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+2903) 10at this point I just want to make a time-cube joke at my own expense... this all needs filtering down and editing  < 1589344188 955559 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a kind of picture compression for multiple versions of a picture at different resolutions? > 1589345343 210981 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72186&oldid=72185 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+387) 10/* Conclusion WRT 's significance for simple translations */ summing up attempt < 1589346171 623571 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice... got an interpreter off the ground. < 1589346177 742441 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :woop woop. < 1589346191 134674 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS .ico and Amiga icon files come to mind as containers for multiple images, but that's not compression. Googling "multiresolution compression" returns summaries of inaccessible academic papers that cover the idea in theory < 1589346404 83103 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm wrong about Amiga icons being multi-res < 1589346784 781513 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589347015 343351 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589347337 331663 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1589349271 364992 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :woop woop. < 1589350280 466171 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589350527 476729 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1589353527 13965 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589353668 409172 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1589353806 981257 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1589354576 347231 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric > 1589355837 553907 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72187&oldid=71663 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+333) 10[[INTERCAL|INTERCAL-72]] < 1589357253 796049 :LKoen!~LKoen___@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589357672 273686 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589358968 926392 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1589359116 4730 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1589360915 53411 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589360948 985348 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589361913 804969 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1589362151 715071 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589362224 593146 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1589362231 225099 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1589364195 145195 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1589364204 93258 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Casino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72188&oldid=72168 5* 03Ais523 5* (+106) 10/* Language Overview */ fix spec to match impl; the spec couldn't possibly be correct because its "RNG" alternated between two different values, I think the author confused the seeding operation with the next-integer operation > 1589364605 201423 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72189&oldid=72140 5* 03Emerald 5* (+67) 10/* Underground */ < 1589364863 296796 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1589365194 971687 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Quit: bye < 1589365218 358572 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric > 1589365247 454723 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Casino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72190&oldid=72188 5* 03Ais523 5* (+2382) 10TC with bignum cells < 1589366268 853962 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.246.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1589367102 426294 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589367532 857200 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1589367673 873994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.246.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1589368655 716652 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eniuq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72191&oldid=56986 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+42) 10fixed link > 1589370642 203031 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:InfiniteDonuts14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72192&oldid=72176 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+71) 10 < 1589371023 345998 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1589371041 445482 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1589371128 187871 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: I think that we can just work with <*,{,}|∅> because unmatched parentheses can always be given a meaning rather than it being syntactically invalid > 1589371135 425418 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CLC-INTERCAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72193&oldid=20042 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10 > 1589371393 583176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aeolbonn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72194&oldid=68989 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10/* External resources */ it says in the description < 1589371659 827832 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1589373101 795661 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72195&oldid=71904 5* 03Orby 5* (+122) 10 > 1589373180 247743 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72196&oldid=72195 5* 03Orby 5* (+114) 10/* Group formulation */ Adding links < 1589373375 889559 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiellow < 1589373379 564892 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1589373507 585346 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think reversible bitfuck has the group presentation and the PF problem can be reduced to the question, what is the rank of ? < 1589373543 250446 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we reformulate rbf s.t. unmatched parentheses have some simple meaning > 1589374614 471101 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72197&oldid=71885 5* 03Orby 5* (+278) 10/* Minimization */ > 1589374685 935761 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72198&oldid=72197 5* 03Orby 5* (+58) 10/* Minimization */ < 1589375137 333245 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1589375172 636168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Infinite Goto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72199&oldid=70443 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+8) 10/* Syntax */ < 1589376492 958566 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: woah how did this connection with group theor come about? < 1589376534 291545 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just thinking about how rbf is basically a group and that the minimization problem is essentially asking what the rank of that group is < 1589376551 732078 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a more general setting, the minimization problem is asking what the rank of a monoid is < 1589376554 239561 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is super interesting < 1589376560 10693 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been learning about group theory < 1589376583 415670 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1589376583 835590 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus < 1589376658 195522 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :another bonus from thinking of rbf as a group is that we know rbf is non-abelian, so rank() > 1 < 1589376664 993806 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if PF exists, it is minimal < 1589376688 499164 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higman%27s_embedding_theorem < 1589376722 608050 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group#Novikov%E2%80%93Boone_theorem < 1589376811 321675 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading the same pages < 1589376825 421986 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_representation is interesting too < 1589376856 566481 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to think about this but im a bit preoccupied < 1589376872 129893 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the full group presentation would include a very complex set of relations < 1589376886 612980 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fully explaining how every command interacts with each other < 1589376914 473821 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this connection could be very fruitful though, group homomorphism preserve a bunch of things < 1589376937 980148 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if any one of these things can be calculated for NF and PF and are different this would prove they cannot be simply translated < 1589376955 478581 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can always start with a less structured presentation and add structure as required < 1589376994 999344 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric : basically captures rbf. There are some other things that boil down to the identity like (+) etc. but it's not important if they're missed < 1589377007 720526 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure you are right but i don't yet understand that idea < 1589377033 284262 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong haha < 1589377048 271559 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end of the day, we will know if we've found pf because the translation will work < 1589377088 762840 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just made me realize something important < 1589377095 286581 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1589377105 386601 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if reversible languages are groups, maybe that's why semigroups are used to study turing machines < 1589377138 758584 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep > 1589377382 730339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72200&oldid=71983 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10 < 1589377626 821365 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1589379511 621556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72201&oldid=72198 5* 03Orby 5* (-1) 10/* Minimization */ > 1589380445 893485 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72202&oldid=72196 5* 03Orby 5* (+161) 10/* Group formulation */ > 1589380475 698475 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72203&oldid=72202 5* 03Orby 5* (+7) 10/* Group formulation */ > 1589380501 235737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72204&oldid=72203 5* 03Orby 5* (+1) 10/* Group formulation */ > 1589381082 534863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72205&oldid=72201 5* 03Orby 5* (+5) 10/* Minimization */ > 1589381322 772601 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72206&oldid=72204 5* 03Orby 5* (+19) 10/* Group formulation */ > 1589382637 27069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72207&oldid=72205 5* 03Orby 5* (+2) 10/* Minimization */ > 1589382674 21860 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72208&oldid=72207 5* 03Orby 5* (+35) 10/* Minimization */ > 1589384565 177683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72209&oldid=72208 5* 03Orby 5* (+733) 10 > 1589384641 435191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72210&oldid=72209 5* 03Orby 5* (+22) 10/* Thinking in terms of monoids */ > 1589384899 787578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72211&oldid=72210 5* 03Orby 5* (+72) 10/* Thinking in terms of monoids */ > 1589385044 590090 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72212&oldid=72211 5* 03Orby 5* (+14) 10/* Minimization */ < 1589385713 558001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just unironically sorted a table on seven key fields. And I think none of the seven are redundant. < 1589385792 25756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it's an outer merge result, and the seventh key discriminates only the two rows from the right join part. < 1589385810 810404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/outer merge/outer join/ < 1589386019 863267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the first table of that outer join is also a left join, which accounts for one more sort key > 1589386936 495535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72213&oldid=72212 5* 03Orby 5* (+133) 10/* Thinking in terms of monoids */ < 1589386955 846299 :diverger!~div@199.36.221.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589386962 148394 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1589387030 881343 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx JOIN :#esoteric < 1589387056 891186 :divergence!~div@89.187.163.135 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1589387334 385240 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esofun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72214 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+9526) 10Initial specification draft < 1589387359 996193 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589387376 285448 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on my first (decent) esoteric language < 1589387397 845507 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above < 1589387538 506809 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal > 1589387908 767251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esofun14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72215&oldid=72214 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+0) 104.1.a refers to integers, not nil > 1589388199 154868 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Nobody14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72216&oldid=56536 5* 03Nobody 5* (+25) 10 > 1589388406 837427 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72217&oldid=72213 5* 03Orby 5* (+1303) 10/* Thinking in terms of monoids */ < 1589388428 686671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: doesn't asmbf count? < 1589388440 785687 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, I forgot about t his one < 1589388449 709633 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a kinda compiler of some sort to brainfuck < 1589388454 432164 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the abstraction isn't really this creative > 1589388458 915413 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72218&oldid=72217 5* 03Orby 5* (+2) 10/* Rank of monoid */ < 1589388530 533363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it counts, unless you used it for production to write programs for a casino or something < 1589388585 321455 :adu!~arobbins@c-73-129-154-238.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1589388608 604470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't worry, for many people, the first esolang they create is a toy language that's much more silly than asmbf < 1589388617 180181 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1589388628 505758 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, asm2bf wasn't meant to be this silly lol < 1589388722 603045 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? casino < 1589388727 545649 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :casino? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1589388756 901601 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't this shrug face change? < 1589388763 171231 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear it used to be different before < 1589388898 436468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me it's the either the unfinished toy language geo that I made for a univ course (you can tell it's unfinished: the name is geo becauase I wanted to add some geometry-related stuff like vector operations), or the really horribly unusable broken komalpsz language which may or may not be esoteric < 1589388934 635708 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589388986 203931 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey < 1589389024 967 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :greets > 1589389101 97621 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72219&oldid=72218 5* 03Orby 5* (+489) 10 > 1589389445 749384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72220&oldid=68790 5* 03Orby 5* (+371) 10/* Formalizing requirements */ < 1589389513 417805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably make a wiki article about komalpsz, just as a bad example you shoud avoid < 1589389592 394565 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you consider it bad < 1589389663 433617 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1589389784 728682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: ask me again later if I don't get Back to that < 1589389792 385277 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, sure > 1589389813 597076 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72221&oldid=72219 5* 03Orby 5* (+24) 10/* Thinking in terms of monoids */ No longer overloading A for everything > 1589389888 819468 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72222&oldid=72221 5* 03Orby 5* (+0) 10/* Rank of monoid */ < 1589390067 652612 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589390105 652456 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey rain1, check out the simple translation page > 1589390105 969836 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72223&oldid=72167 5* 03Emerald 5* (+140) 10Regret < 1589390108 718936 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :full of new goodies < 1589390667 995131 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1589390748 850741 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric > 1589390822 872416 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72224&oldid=72222 5* 03Orby 5* (+0) 10/* Rank of monoid */ < 1589391039 696235 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1589391314 747483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above => please forgive me but I think the description is even harder to wrap one’s head about than with descriptions of my esolangs :) though I can definitely see a couple of alike typos in 8.1.b…8.1.j (7.1.a, 7.1.b are mentioned but probably 8.1.a, 8.1.b should be there instead) < 1589391346 128511 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’d say a couple of examples would make the deal way easier < 1589391353 534419 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes I forgot < 1589391370 466785 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I’m myself bad with examples BTW) > 1589391371 795988 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esofun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72225&oldid=72215 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+0) 10 < 1589391387 909854 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spec is confusing < 1589391391 775134 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language isn't inished yet < 1589391400 861250 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: also, voyad is a cool word, thanks < 1589391407 821628 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are at least 30 ways a `+' operator can behave < 1589391411 922803 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the current context < 1589391416 262102 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1589391435 174990 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ultimately this language will be harder than Malbolge, but also way cleaner < 1589391440 461374 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and way more advanced < 1589391475 613424 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you wrote you’d like to break another unprogrammable language, do you make this one so that there would be something new to break?) < 1589391478 462673 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1589391494 46885 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :while I wrote the question you’ve already answered it < 1589391496 260726 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, obviously :d < 1589391512 172048 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd love to see bigger programs in it < 1589391523 995171 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I doubt someone would decide to take his time trying to work out... this < 1589391573 630652 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how hard it is to design such a language?.. If that’s not too hard, I’d try to make something and see how fast you’re going to crack it, it might be fun < 1589391628 652829 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though making the language cleaner would make the task harder < 1589391638 504216 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, well, you need to actually ensure that the draft is consistent < 1589391672 81057 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it < 1589391689 510035 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I already put a lot of work into the draft lol < 1589391693 5321 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now I try to write some parsing stuff in Python but later maybe I’ll try a thing or other < 1589391696 136422 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been writing it and pondering for around 2 hours < 1589391714 311399 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I forgot about something < 1589391720 208170 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't there my Malbolge self interpreter linked on my user page < 1589391744 420892 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it => yeah I like my descriptions be consistent. They should clearly define if something does something or is it an UB if it’s chosen so > 1589391811 322661 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Palaiologos14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72226&oldid=70870 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+126) 10 < 1589391822 148907 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway have a good time with this language. I’ll maybe try to understand a later draft < 1589391867 148282 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, thanks < 1589391873 985471 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589391879 304621 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the draft in my predictions will grow massively < 1589391896 187438 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the list of adverbs or verbs for instance - there can be up to 512 of them < 1589391903 922815 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I want to make my language fullfill the design goals < 1589391912 505591 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that i missed some discussion regarding palaiologos' lang < 1589391925 543725 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to design 256 monadic, 256 niladic, 256 voyadic, 256 dyadic verbs and 256 adverbs < 1589391947 161489 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and none of them should be no-ops? < 1589391962 883859 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan on adding one eaisly accessible no-op < 1589392042 276827 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ideas include adding a verb related to generating stuff with mersenne twister (lmao) < 1589392050 397914 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :packing data, primitive compression < 1589392067 853987 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real hell will be implementing all of this, lol < 1589392090 16071 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with a draft it's always more enjoyable < 1589392364 913461 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1589392382 854198 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589393318 872980 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1589393496 199833 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1589393622 835650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72227&oldid=72224 5* 03Orby 5* (+166) 10 < 1589393632 588575 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric > 1589394208 174265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DmilkaSTD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72228&oldid=69536 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-1264) 10Replaced content with "==Favorite Esolang== I have many esolangs that I really like, probably my favorite is False and BitBitJump." > 1589395621 911374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Palaiologos14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72229&oldid=72226 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+79) 10 > 1589396065 167095 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esofun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72230&oldid=72225 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+2353) 10div/mul operators < 1589396887 244374 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1589397029 994072 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 PRIVMSG #esoteric :palaiologos this thing is looking well currently > 1589397137 195973 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72231 5* 03Orby 5* (+2319) 10Creating Artemis > 1589397228 130308 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asvi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72232&oldid=72017 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+146) 10 > 1589397256 552124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72233&oldid=72231 5* 03Orby 5* (+11) 10/* Defining procedures */ < 1589397918 228256 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1589397974 116343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07String-rewriting paradigm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72234&oldid=71147 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+35) 10 < 1589397989 330268 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1589397993 924508 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07String rewriting paradigm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72235&oldid=71145 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+35) 10 < 1589398187 699673 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1589398560 355145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72236&oldid=72233 5* 03Orby 5* (+129) 10/* Definition */ > 1589398752 23998 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hppavilion114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72237&oldid=50569 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+52) 10unsigned > 1589398787 512669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72238&oldid=71752 5* 03Orby 5* (+68) 10 > 1589398919 468195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asvi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72239&oldid=72232 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+518) 10 > 1589398948 898401 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72240&oldid=72236 5* 03Orby 5* (+1) 10/* Relationship to &brainfuck */ > 1589398980 112914 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72241&oldid=72240 5* 03Orby 5* (+41) 10 > 1589399049 971500 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72242&oldid=72241 5* 03Orby 5* (-31) 10 > 1589399074 937384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72243&oldid=72242 5* 03Orby 5* (+0) 10/* Defining procedures */ > 1589399517 514050 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Artemis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72244&oldid=72243 5* 03Orby 5* (+21) 10/* Defining procedures */ < 1589399644 18223 :gnu-nobody!~a@24.133.64.54 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1589400013 174726 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1589400065 4651 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589400367 829776 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1589401454 371279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07-14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72245 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1418) 10Created page with "'''-''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It uses only two characters, and -. ==Memory== - has four wrapping unsigned 8-bit cells, each of which sta..." < 1589401534 393254 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric > 1589401563 816258 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72246&oldid=72245 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+229) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1589401578 599653 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72247&oldid=72246 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1589401655 526543 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72248&oldid=72182 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+26) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ + [[-]] and [[--Unless]] > 1589401693 790898 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72249&oldid=71989 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+65) 10/* Languages */ < 1589403279 322603 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1589405381 846097 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589405482 745571 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1589405550 222912 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1589406243 908255 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1589407552 919651 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1589407588 723176 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1589410039 533740 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03OpenByte 5* 10New user account < 1589410600 396778 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589410976 1718 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e JOIN :#esoteric < 1589411339 637184 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: you there? > 1589411350 277352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72250&oldid=71834 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+3579) 10Explanation of deferred parsing tricks WRT simple-translations < 1589411392 888215 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: yes, just finished typing up my latest thoughts on my ST tricks -- hopefully they make some kind of sense! < 1589411418 960472 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool! reading now. I also made a lot of progress today as recorded on the simple translation page. < 1589411703 562577 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, interesting. Need some time to digest that. I realized today that, for concatenative languages like bf-alikes, the minimization problem is essentially determining the rank of the monoid which is formed by the language < 1589411728 939154 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :on which a lot of work has been done < 1589411745 954016 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the special case of rbf, that monoid is actually a group, and finding the rank of a group is even easier < 1589411853 859805 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to keep reading up on groups -- I may have overlooked the significance of the 'reversible' part of RBF when it comes to groups too. I think you implied that it was significant? < 1589411896 356036 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Groups are pretty straightforward to understand. It's a set with a binary operator that is associative, there's an identity, and every element has an inverse < 1589411960 677484 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the case of rbf, the binary operator is concatenation, the empty string is the identity, and the inverses go *: self inverse, >:<, (:) < 1589412002 955444 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't totally nail it because there's more structure than that, but the rbf monoid is a quotient of that group < 1589412031 488437 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rank is just the cardinality of the smallest generating set, i.e. the smallest set of operators that can be combined to form any program < 1589412050 622823 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :rank is obviously <= 3 due to nanofuck < 1589412096 216478 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I hadn't focused on determining the specific inverses, that helps. < 1589412126 380123 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, once you identify the inverses then the simple translation problem can be viewed as a problem of group presentation < 1589412143 269753 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group < 1589412203 548681 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, rank() >= rank(rbf) basically < 1589412233 642315 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately rank() = 3, so it doesn't actually tighten the bound from what we already know < 1589412259 135492 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was where I stalled, applying what I understood about groups specifically to the RBF and PF examples. I got the free group structure, but wasn't sure if we needed more detail in the relations < 1589412288 363122 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :more generally, simple translations of concatenative languages can be viewed as a problem of monoid presentation (a monoid is just a group that doesn't necessarily have inverses) < 1589412319 706252 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :the a^2 = e relation doesn't actually help, but it is true (a = *) < 1589412498 947473 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_monoid is a gold mine < 1589412500 305512 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can put the investigation of simple-translation tricks behind me now. I feel like I understand why if PF is possible using 0 as a self-interpreter that is not as interesting a result as a more direct translation which you are aiming for. Now that I can separate the two approaches, it should be possible to prove whether a direct < 1589412500 804661 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :translation or not. < 1589412518 136552 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is possible < 1589412556 104027 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think I have also made progress. I realize now that what I was trying to capture with the definition of a simple translation is really just the problem of determining the rank of the monoid of a concatenative language < 1589412602 35902 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :which appears to be subtly different than the approach you've taken < 1589412618 549012 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I'm satisfied with that framing of the problem < 1589412622 193557 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for your help < 1589412646 674825 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This group theory approach is interesting, and I'll try to catch up. I was reading a lot based on the link rain1 posted < 1589412691 244869 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had assumed it was meant as a direct pointer to us looking into simple-translations because it seemed to fit so well, and was literally why I started on the group path the other day < 1589412707 102874 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the crucial thing is understanding that a concatenative language is a monoid, and a reversible concatenative language is a group. Both of which have presentations, which are essentially what we are working with. < 1589412739 144730 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: I'm not so sure you meant that Dehn fn link for us, and it was just something interesting you had been reading? :) Either way, thanks for the link! < 1589412767 860601 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took a couple courses in group theory in school. I have forgotten pretty much everything except the definition and the elementary results, but there is a lot of rich structure. < 1589412777 193680 :LKoen!~LKoen___@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589412815 492777 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3672804/minimal-generator-of-group?noredirect=1#comment7547744_3672804 < 1589412819 131328 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :last link ;) < 1589412890 310657 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that stuff is really only applicable to concatenative languages. It just so happens that a lot of esolangs are concatenative. < 1589412907 510055 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm teaching myself as I go. It's something I have wanted to learn more about for some time, but I find I need a concrete project or problem I care about to apply the new knowledge to before I can get or retain it < 1589412949 116567 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually been looking for an application of group theory to esolangs for a while, so it's kind of ironic that I found out it's been hiding under my nose for years. < 1589413022 250252 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:dc03:ce71:fbdc:795e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1589413060 820095 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.81.24.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1589413065 794752 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the concatenative aspect was something I thought was significant in my messy notes page on the wiki early on, I was struggling to articulate it and suspected my definition of concatenative was non-standard. I'm glad the concepts are coming together < 1589413092 145974 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too. it's exciting. this has opened up a whole new world of ideas to me. < 1589413120 437900 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1589413151 780641 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing I didn't get for the longest time, is that you can think about the strings of the language as the elements of the group and not worry about the semantics at all, that's how you can view rbf as a group and things like ( and ) as elements < 1589413195 684829 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had tried to model bf +, -, <, > with linear operators before, but always got hung up when it came to the loop constructs < 1589413232 62487 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, yeah I'm stoked < 1589413261 222164 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for more concatenative programming languages. It appears most of them are stack based (for some reason), but bf is sort of accidentally concatenative < 1589413268 268001 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think a lot of esolangs fall into this category < 1589413368 31566 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that the majority of my efforts in esolangs were tending towards silly encodings, which at one level I knew were somewhat trivial, but there was a kernel of something I really wanted to understand. My latest efforts have been in trying to program using Godel numbers and mathematical functions to join them,;I think a stronger understanding < 1589413368 530530 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of group theory will help me there < 1589413401 152340 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :how hip are you to lambda calculus? < 1589413405 907474 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something about the simple-translation concept that resonated with me there, but I'm still trying to put it all together < 1589413445 148106 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :it so happens that unlambda also has a nice monoid structure < 1589413582 563751 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1589413594 38857 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have really wanted to work more with Iota / Jot / and Zot (so I could use non-bf based Godel numbers), but I was struggling to program anything directly using lamdba calculus. Unlambda seemed the obvious gateway to those, but I haven't tried coding anything substantial in it yet < 1589413802 314588 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I diverted from picking up low level lambda calculus style languages and have been playing with Bitwise Cyclic-tag, specifically implementing an purely arithmetic version, and trying to figure out how to program usefully in it. < 1589413841 920328 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... then simple-translations distracted me