< 1588206673 260465 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that will do it too > 1588206747 151338 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Double Helix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71498 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+4892) 10+[[Double Helix]] > 1588206751 53483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71499&oldid=71496 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+19) 10+[[Double Helix]] > 1588206754 186124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71500&oldid=71361 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+19) 10+[[Double Helix]] > 1588207352 314572 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unary Filesystem14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71501 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+143) 10Wip > 1588207826 284643 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71502&oldid=51707 5* 03Orby 5* (+1827) 10 < 1588210741 350662 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e83b:e4a9:7f97:c52b JOIN :#esoteric < 1588211061 314687 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e83b:e4a9:7f97:c52b QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588212795 394249 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1588213259 390720 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1588214013 301217 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e83b:e4a9:7f97:c52b JOIN :#esoteric < 1588214291 340755 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e83b:e4a9:7f97:c52b QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588217725 273428 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does C have any function like PostScript's /ReusableStreamDecode filter? < 1588217826 995312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that? < 1588217918 889889 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reads an entire file into memory at once so that now it is seekable. < 1588217931 146095 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even if the original file wasn't seekable.) < 1588217997 322947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean in the standard library? < 1588218000 660124 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1588218009 413127 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure such a function belongs in the standard library. < 1588218039 284944 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you are correct, but I also wanted to know if GNU or POSIX has it. < 1588218057 306442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX has mmap which might be better for many purposes. < 1588218431 592879 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, for some purposes it is better. < 1588220146 847059 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :C's standard library doesn't have a function like that. wouldn't that just be loading a file into memory byte by byte and operating on that. < 1588220165 304044 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588220202 701587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is like that. Of course it is not a problem if it doesn't have; I just was wondering about it. < 1588220249 968990 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has functions to actively seek through files without loading them into memory. < 1588220294 483785 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but some files are not rewindable. < 1588220331 122383 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588220345 645025 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1588220393 522420 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as many files that aren't a disk file. < 1588220403 282894 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1588220936 739172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the API you want? < 1588221041 754893 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering, actually. < 1588221118 945045 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are all sorts of ways you might want to allocate memory for the file. < 1588221613 140668 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens if the file doesn't have an EOF character? < 1588221622 509038 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/EOF character/EOF marker < 1588221693 375843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would a file have an EOF character? < 1588221724 320036 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't have EOF then it won't work, of course. < 1588222120 196046 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588222316 840214 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588222429 409397 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello zzo38. < 1588222468 578762 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1588222477 761683 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hovhomidionhhtrh PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly anyone uses an OS that has an EOF character as actually part of the file < 1588222487 250641 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an idea for an "improvement" on TrainCode. < 1588222497 280919 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hovhomidionhhtrh PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than just a weird artifact of APIs like getc() < 1588222610 753006 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I created this Befunge-98 snippet which freezes the cfunge and rcfunge interpreters: https://gist.github.com/PlasmaPower/39f01e1289d5d4bd84953335efd5f7de < 1588222639 505579 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if anyone's done this before, but it creates a flying IP that's always going to be out of bounds, then uses another thread to overwrite the currently executing instruction to put it in string mode and process a space < 1588222653 539518 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1588222656 212065 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing the interpreters get stuck trying to skip over future spaces < 1588222657 243326 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :) < 1588222712 149809 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Train: What is your idea for "improvement" on TrainCode? < 1588222782 189404 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiple trains. < 1588222819 166540 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :the character # splits a train. < 1588222846 404053 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :It creates a new instruction and data pointer at it's position if the IP goes over it, and sets them to RIGHT < 1588223060 748732 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think? < 1588223065 347016 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it can be a a possible extension < 1588223079 439553 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :And two new chars: e and f < 1588223089 432960 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change the relative data pointer for each IP < 1588223152 903686 :PlasmaPower!~PlasmaPow@89.187.164.95 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1588223169 552384 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588223171 954840 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does < 1588224056 441069 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1588225784 965795 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588226038 987954 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:7876:409a:256f:13ce JOIN :#esoteric < 1588226344 987376 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:7876:409a:256f:13ce QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588227757 330878 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4d2:165b:b84f:9bf9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588227841 56748 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:7833:c5b9:1878:9574 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588228049 986326 :tromp__!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588228085 352349 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4d2:165b:b84f:9bf9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588228113 984415 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:7833:c5b9:1878:9574 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588228143 834869 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588228240 903690 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what do you think of multiple pointers? < 1588228292 843258 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Train: I mentioned after you disconnection, I can mention again < 1588228302 192599 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does < 1588228316 55138 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1588228319 363317 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, you did not quite exaplain how e and f are working) < 1588228345 989068 :tromp__!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588228347 886201 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :e decrements the reference for the data pointer for the current IP, and vice versa for f < 1588228360 43378 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it changes the pairings of DP and IP < 1588228376 305543 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :each IP has an assigned DP, and e/f change that assigned DP < 1588228410 284670 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1588229002 709429 :Train!ca9a845f@202-154-132-95.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588229378 314842 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588231405 309358 :Bowserinator!~Bowserina@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened < 1588231416 471211 :moony!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1588231427 504094 :iovoid!~iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit! < 1588233183 759030 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588233753 57988 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go one further on what I said yesterday: in Jot, the 1 combinator serves the role of a prefix application operator, which lets you construct programs in "forward Polish notation", which is how it can dispense away with parentheses. < 1588233771 775037 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dispense away with/dispense with/ < 1588233880 69903 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "reverse Polish notation" in concatenative languages also lets you dispense with parentheses, and that's often stated as a selling point, but it's actually stronger than that: in a concatenative language, concatenation is associative, and that's the reason why you can dispense with pareentheses. < 1588234016 382079 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know if there is any actual signficant practical value to having concatenation be associative, actually, but it's aesthetically pleasing, at least.) < 1588234463 167269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are reverse and forward Polish notation actually different in that respect? < 1588234771 612847 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that in FPN a symbol sets up an expectation of what follows it (its argument(s)), and in RPN it doesn't, I would say yes. < 1588235235 119889 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I would admit that that's looking at it as syntax only. < 1588235628 259252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you reverse an RPN program, don't you get a PN program? < 1588235652 15100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there's a practical thing where RPN is more amenable to things that takes a variable number of arguments or do other bizarro stack operations. < 1588235941 836014 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588235973 528655 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my fourth hour of debugging my interpreter... I've had to deal with the weirdest bugs. < 1588236006 978798 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:615a:9e30:e4fb:8588 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588236025 298437 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1588236287 199984 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't really know; I'm mainly trying to explain to myself out loud why my idea for a concatenative version of the SKI calculus seemed obvious and easy when I first thought of it, but turned out to be much less obvious when I tried to work it out. < 1588236308 7564 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been converting my code, which was expressly designed for single-pointers into an n-pointer system, with two types of pointers and parallel processing. < 1588236310 382153 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it actually is obvious and easy and I'm just overthinking it. < 1588236345 603271 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe, but many problems depend on your method of thinking. < 1588236372 375121 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, in my esolang, I couldn't find a quine for days, and zzo38 on here found one in less than an hour. < 1588236386 984715 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :His method of thinking was very different to mine, and it worked far better. < 1588236394 902090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is 1 in Jot like ` in Unlambda? < 1588236433 635128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, not really. < 1588236613 453547 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588236621 219349 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gudday mate! < 1588236995 372421 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fxmbgdseweobncjt QUIT :Quit: killed < 1588236999 992408 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xzyaisbqzvkskrdj QUIT :Quit: killed < 1588237013 124393 :xavo[m]!undersco1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wgwnxhhmtkkndjuy QUIT :Quit: killed < 1588237018 492894 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vlvkegcgsdxmwhtq QUIT :Quit: killed < 1588237969 702230 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kdjvvfchmkasywvm JOIN :#esoteric < 1588238647 342998 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1588238795 759558 :Train!ca9a8535@202-154-133-53.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588239029 633511 :rain1!~debian@244.106.198.146.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588239033 620946 :rain1!~debian@244.106.198.146.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Changing host < 1588239033 620991 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588240540 644220 :xavo[m]!undersco1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rlwfunenxbrvafaa JOIN :#esoteric < 1588240540 722761 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd JOIN :#esoteric < 1588240540 760391 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kleblcnzezajlitm JOIN :#esoteric < 1588243285 904553 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1588243616 39580 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.lmfdb.org/NumberField/?galois_group=6T4 < 1588243619 935530 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this i sa good site < 1588246021 969614 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588246177 815687 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1588246190 376310 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1588246990 861039 :wib_jonas!b03f0c32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.12.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588248263 874444 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588250029 300875 :BWBellairs[NNRF]!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1588250044 806863 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1588250077 430193 :BWBellairs[NNRF]!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs NICK :BWBellairs < 1588251266 979418 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1588251285 282578 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric > 1588252265 366044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unary Filesystem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71503&oldid=71501 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+893) 10Finished > 1588252338 868396 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71504&oldid=71499 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10/* U */ + [[Unary Filesystem]] > 1588252387 331247 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71505&oldid=71493 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+70) 10/* Languages */ > 1588252406 346945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71506&oldid=71505 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* Languages */ < 1588252456 318029 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588252576 316064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Double Helix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71507&oldid=71498 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+36) 10 > 1588252634 920260 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Double Helix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71508&oldid=71507 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-24) 10link + typo fix < 1588253102 251642 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1588255157 323857 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71509&oldid=71502 5* 03Orby 5* (-42) 10/* The set of PF languages is empty */ > 1588255189 926092 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71510&oldid=71509 5* 03Orby 5* (-39) 10/* The set of PF languages is empty */ > 1588255350 52751 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71511 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+41) 10Redirected page to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] < 1588255405 565847 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is oerjan still active? I haven't seen him around in a while. < 1588255520 242236 :wib_jonas!b03f0c32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: yes, he hasn't disappeared yet > 1588255606 924320 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71512&oldid=63959 5* 03Orby 5* (+163) 10 < 1588255636 463795 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: cool. he and I were working a project a few years ago that I made some progress on yesterday. just trying to reconnect with him. < 1588255746 752097 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anybody else who's interested in BF minimizations. I need some verification on a proof I wrote that there is no 2 command minimization of reversible bitfuck. < 1588255767 53948 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the picofuck page. < 1588255772 988857 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof is in talk section > 1588255938 60514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71513&oldid=71506 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10/* Languages */ > 1588255994 360072 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Past14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71514&oldid=71400 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+126) 10cats > 1588256015 386728 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71515&oldid=71504 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+15) 10/* T */ + [[The Past]] > 1588257051 443581 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71516&oldid=71510 5* 03Orby 5* (+664) 10/* The set of PF languages is empty */ < 1588260192 698038 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1588260917 814274 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1588261130 614610 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have one we will totally be proud of: V* is just a negation of V, assuming the scalar field is a contradiction < 1588261135 462444 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1588261142 781528 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/we/y’all < 1588261164 76797 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or *the* contradiction, hm < 1588261201 388760 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it’s correct of course, as “negation of X assuming Y is a contradiction” is simply X → Y < 1588261245 494954 :wib_jonas!b03f0c32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.12.50 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed > 1588264877 645012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Leo1 5* 10New user account < 1588265516 373993 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:615a:9e30:e4fb:8588 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1588265743 565948 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhcdwyylyjalazmv JOIN :#esoteric < 1588266635 726783 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :solvable 1d peg solitaire problems are regular < 1588266665 224983 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d might as well < 1588267257 832884 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588267276 985047 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588267423 851952 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1588267773 422451 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588270219 48420 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1588270771 207272 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: JOIN :#esoteric < 1588272111 491612 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: 2d is apparently NP complete < 1588272124 787034 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure i get how this is possible < 1588272132 173431 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1588272136 243885 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it can be solved with an easy depth first search < 1588272153 658500 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the maximum depth will be equal to the number of pegs < 1588272164 399299 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, tsp can be solved by filling a matrix < 1588272166 346573 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that leave enough room for it to still be NP complete? < 1588272170 25653 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588272212 883908 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If someone claims to have the perfect programming language, he is either a fool or a salesman or both. < 1588272296 223179 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fail to see how to solve it ith a simple dfs, though < 1588272334 189854 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, wouldn't you need to make a dfs where each step is a new dfs? < 1588272542 688768 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not claiming that peg solitaire is a perfect programming language < 1588272562 535136 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. > 1588272624 410195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Reversible Bitfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71517 5* 03Orby 5* (+3970) 10Finally getting around to creating a standalone page for Reversible Bitfuck < 1588272634 766204 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1588272670 497836 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: i'd like to see your solver with a dfs < 1588272779 641632 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont have it, i wrote it a long time ago < 1588272795 605923 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very simple though, just list all moves at each step > 1588272800 808021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71518&oldid=51581 5* 03Orby 5* (-2496) 10Moving definition of RBF to its own page < 1588272820 637544 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt that this will work with polynomial time < 1588272883 729225 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the previous to last move has 3 pegs with potentially 4 (minimum, can't think of more) moves < 1588272915 504650 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 pegs can lead to different configurations of 3 pegs with more than one move < 1588272932 407250 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fail to see how this is not exponential > 1588272953 409204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71519&oldid=69875 5* 03Orby 5* (-6) 10Updating links to point to reversible bitfuck page < 1588272954 748341 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1588273000 558516 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric > 1588273035 307632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Reversible Bitfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71520&oldid=71517 5* 03Orby 5* (+145) 10Adding categories > 1588273055 16691 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71521&oldid=71518 5* 03Orby 5* (+145) 10Adding categories < 1588273169 6025 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1588273206 461106 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric > 1588273339 460934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71522&oldid=71519 5* 03Orby 5* (+254) 10/* Reversible Bitfuck */ Nanofuck has a dual language, NF' > 1588273379 241569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71523&oldid=71522 5* 03Orby 5* (+8) 10/* Reversible Bitfuck */ Fixing formatting. Sorry for edit spam. > 1588273853 638994 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71524&oldid=71516 5* 03Orby 5* (+56) 10Found a problem with the non-existence proof < 1588273878 137223 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, done editing for now < 1588273896 855012 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588273916 799043 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :This 2 command reversible bitfuck minimization problem is driving me nuts. I've been thinking about this in the back of my head for years. < 1588273938 733922 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems impossible, but I can't find the proof < 1588273959 902270 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will check it out < 1588273978 916480 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you, it's on the Picofuck page < 1588273996 360976 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan and I worked on it for like a month straight in 2017 and got nowhere < 1588274143 698565 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is really cool stuff < 1588274149 918674 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i normally don't look into brainfuck related things anymore < 1588274152 137081 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like this < 1588274267 959529 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588274412 902336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pure14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71525&oldid=70523 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+32) 10/* See also */ < 1588274517 558525 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Picofuck this seems like a very hard problem < 1588274542 449958 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588274590 478017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pure14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71526&oldid=71525 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-24) 10It is not backwards compable < 1588274644 896439 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588274648 428502 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it acceptable for a PF language to use 1/n'th of the tape for real data and the rest for scratch? < 1588274739 172729 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a 2 command version of brainfuck/bitfuck (non reversible) < 1588274896 815815 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: yeah, PF is a hard problem. A PF language can use the tape however it wants provided it's a simple translation of RBF. < 1588274914 389104 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of a 2 command version of brainfuck (even excluding I/O) that's a "simple translation" < 1588274920 602983 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1588274947 924781 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 command bfs are pretty easy < 1588274956 770062 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simple translation definition formalizes the notion of "not cheating", otherwise you can do all kinds of context dependent nonsense and call it a minimization < 1588274964 438867 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered candidate based on the language of matching brackets? [], [][], [][][], ..., [[]], [[[]]], ..., [[][]], type strings < 1588275017 495637 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess all candidates are like that actually < 1588275023 493951 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have generally used [ and ] to discuss potential PF commands, but it is not known whether or not bracket matching of that type would be the appropriate grammar for a PF < 1588275041 922024 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax might be two [ for each ], e.g. [[], or something else < 1588275056 279083 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1588275082 38457 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "leave the machine in state t_1" mean in the definition of reversibility? the tape pointer? < 1588275091 95283 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :tape pointer + tape contents < 1588275099 890776 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :that comprises the entire state < 1588275107 948919 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1588275125 787432 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588275188 377175 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 command BFs are easy that are not what I call "simple translations" of BF. e.g. unary, turning tarpits, etc. < 1588275233 377107 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :braincrash is the classic example of a turning tarpit that isn't actually a "simple translation" because it's context dependent < 1588275273 96835 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could solve this problem < 1588275286 30984 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't make my mind up if any PF exists or not < 1588275297 215291 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to find one < 1588275307 583029 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to prove they don't exist for years < 1588275346 180728 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanofuck is as small as I've gotten and I suspect it's minimal < 1588275398 267285 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanofuck is very impressive already < 1588275435 567994 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :NF wasn't hard to find. I'm sure there are other interesting 3 command variants aside from NF and NF' < 1588275459 846603 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, obviously there are an infinite number of 3 command variants, but most of them just contain huge swaths of nops < 1588275544 951625 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you could do that makes [] act like * but [][] act like brackets < 1588275551 623925 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using every second cell as a scratch space < 1588275584 336346 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea behind requiring a "simple translation" is to restrict context dependence, which in my view is cheating < 1588275597 812054 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's questionable if this is reversible < 1588275608 820432 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :if what is reversible? < 1588275644 924596 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it would only be reversible if we add a restriction that we must write [X][X] (same contents each time), but then htis probabyl violates the simple translation requirement < 1588275658 397145 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.9.236.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1588275671 632969 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, how do you translate [ into an RBF string if [ has different meanings in different contexts? < 1588275693 861123 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could store that context on the tape, but then you have to prevent it from being overwritten < 1588275706 411431 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah storing it on the tape is what i was thinking < 1588275738 668591 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like the ability to use scratch space on the tape is what makes it hard to prove this impossible (or potentially gives us the ability to pull it off) < 1588275759 541643 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we only get a finite amount of data from this < 1588275767 454242 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on how you define the isomorphism between tapes < 1588275804 837027 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say the tape has to be literally the same, then scratch space doesn't fly, if there just needs to be an isomorphism between the tapes, then map each cell position n to 2n in the converted tape < 1588275811 111001 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :that leaves 2n + 1 for scratch space < 1588275813 968180 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1588275844 990161 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the pf language could only use the even cells and use the odd cells for storing context < 1588275867 223899 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the most satisfying answer, but if that's all that exists I'd be happy with it < 1588275943 295552 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :first priority would be making the tapes match exactly though < 1588275952 162442 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :like they do between RBF and NF < 1588275970 360410 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it could be proven that matching tapes is impossible < 1588275976 2210 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1588275980 424224 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting thought < 1588275983 86252 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would this additional restriction of matching tapes imply < 1588276011 803561 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, matching tapes is possible with 3 command simple translations because I've done it < 1588276027 195533 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've generally been going for matching tapes when looking for 2 command simple translations as well < 1588276038 11488 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't explored storing context on the tape very much < 1588276055 136413 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like that is a little bit of a loophole < 1588276071 632580 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might make sense to define simple translation as meaning identical tapes < 1588276101 334072 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to allow simple translations between languages that use different models < 1588276108 403502 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :like maybe one language doesn't have a tape and another does < 1588276120 857350 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could still be simple translations between them < 1588276218 318442 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588276261 387726 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Asdfasdf1 5* 10New user account < 1588276669 431681 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How common are using C programs on non-IEEE computers? < 1588276691 293520 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by non-IEEE computer? < 1588276712 750898 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably ones without floating point support. < 1588276729 489166 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, or using a non-IEEE-754 floating point format. < 1588276730 865662 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case super common, most 8 and 16 bit chips don't have floating point support < 1588276818 34015 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :SDCC's (emulated) floating point routines are non-IEEE. < 1588276823 375640 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :on those architectures floating point is simulated i software < 1588276834 633634 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1588276857 97576 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're "IEEE-ish", but don't support e.g. subnormal numbers. < 1588276912 907717 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, although I suppose it is not needed to port TeXnicard to non-IEEE computers, since TeXnicard is intended for 32-bit or 64-bit computers, not 8-bit and 16-bits. < 1588276984 700660 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what does the C standard say about floats and doubles? If the C standard guarantees them to behave like IEEE floats and doubles, then I'd assume the compiler will take care of it. < 1588276992 863308 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. < 1588277001 22982 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bummer < 1588277005 192709 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will need to study the discharged candidates on the discussion page tommorow < 1588277011 616042 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an appendix for IEEE floats and doubles, which the implementation can indicate by defining a macro. < 1588277027 379055 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: common if you count it when you deliberately enable some aggressive settings or optimization flags for compilation units, such as the runtime option to not generate and read denormals on x86_64 to speed up operations that would generate such numbers < 1588277028 179453 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: cool, feel free to reach out < 1588277029 183484 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, I am not sure that SQLite works on non-IEEE computers anyways) < 1588277032 983012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, the standard just gives a very abstract model, that can be implemented by a non-2 radix. < 1588277036 722751 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bob@forder.cc < 1588277071 915414 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that still uses numbers formatted as IEEE float, just not the IEEE float rules for arithmetic operations < 1588277077 595541 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know if you count that < 1588277118 987005 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1588277130 168455 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An implementation that defines __STDC_IEC_559__ shall conform to the specifications in this annex." < 1588277180 547818 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, my program only cares that the "float" type is a 32-bit floating point and that it is either IEEE or big-endian (or both), and that if you write to a union with a int and float as a int and read it back as a float, that it can be read. (The reason for this confusion is presumably a bug in Adobe Distiller, which is software I don't even use.) < 1588277265 67675 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that part about the union sounds like it could be false on modern enough gcc because of how C handles unions, but I'm not quite sure < 1588277267 297186 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or possibly some other software from Adobe; I am not sure which.) < 1588277281 321221 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: wait, what do you do with the union? < 1588277293 150453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of union for type punning is sort of sanctioned. < 1588277305 83550 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merely write a int to it and read back a float from it; the union is not used after that. < 1588277305 387267 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it back as a float and then read the union? < 1588277317 298665 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how the C rules work for that so I'd just avoid that < 1588277334 623646 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for float being 32-bit IEEE float format, that's probably true everywhere < 1588277372 222480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There's a footnote about how it should work. "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called 'type punning')." < 1588277384 812695 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: could you use memcpy for that instead? that definitely works and is usually optimized away, while I'm not sure about the union < 1588277414 16296 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also is this a C program or a C++ program? < 1588277419 429426 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is C, not C++ < 1588277442 947248 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I really don't understand the rules, and I suggest memcpy instead of a union < 1588277465 331082 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's possible that a union is safe too < 1588277498 60437 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Search for "#define obj_ufloat" in http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/39edd63855a81b2b < 1588277534 862571 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a non-IEEE computer, the floating number is stored using the native order. < 1588277562 792392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, if you want you could do that with memcpy. < 1588277608 692770 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`float f; memcpy(&f, &(int){x}, sizeof (int)); f;` or suchlike. But I do think the union's allowed as well. < 1588277610 367112 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :float? No such file or directory < 1588277616 604349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso: Don't you start. < 1588277651 438308 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I guess you could do it entirely with compound literals, thanks to memcpy returning dest. :) < 1588277696 966541 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in `*(float *)memcpy(&(float){0}, &(int){x}, sizeof (int))`. < 1588277771 879048 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is that compound literal actually valid in C? < 1588277793 898335 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be. In C99 and above. < 1588277804 151305 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1588277805 19813 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I could use memcpy, although I did it this way, and the quoted footnote would suggest that it could work. Although that isn't the point I am trying to make anyways, which is rather the Adobe bug (despite none of Adobe's software is in use here). < 1588277876 187545 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like `&(T){x}` over `(T[]){x}` when it's "conceptually" a pointer to a single object rather than an array of length 1, though they are equivalent. < 1588277912 527493 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1588277937 466345 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1588277966 943199 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1588277979 347746 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588278050 865194 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't know if possibly someone else might find the set of macros in the code I linked to to be useful in your own programs too maybe > 1588278577 860663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71527&oldid=71429 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10 < 1588278756 982374 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588279529 235265 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhcdwyylyjalazmv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1588279849 984478 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588280012 506312 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588280012 590656 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588280024 372915 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588280059 510780 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1588280084 736758 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71528&oldid=71298 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+61) 10 > 1588280113 487372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71529&oldid=71528 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+42) 10 > 1588280132 269099 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71530&oldid=71529 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10 > 1588280146 724923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71531&oldid=71530 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10 > 1588280406 683802 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71532 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1483) 10WIP > 1588280427 382468 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71533&oldid=71532 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+35) 10 > 1588280692 377382 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71534&oldid=71437 5* 03Orby 5* (+45) 10 > 1588280724 209688 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71535&oldid=71534 5* 03Orby 5* (-18) 10 < 1588282383 516089 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :Quit: zseri < 1588282479 244437 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey everyone. < 1588282504 460074 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pondrin' what Haskell would look like if we assumed it took place in the category of abelian groups. < 1588282532 236829 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :There'd be a total function z :: forall a. a. < 1588282583 75295 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :And another total function p :: forall a. a -> a -> a, which would be commutative and associative with z as the identity. < 1588282606 974216 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :And n :: forall a. a -> a, the inverse for p. < 1588282827 577605 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the category of abelian groups isn't cartesian closed, so... good luck with currying. < 1588284220 880918 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588285161 605990 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1588285919 978882 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588286869 441256 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588286914 378846 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588287165 476190 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1588287618 442901 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588287991 241063 :loops!~ircap@217.217.238.232.dyn.user.ono.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1588288026 887325 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588288063 666019 :loops!~ircap@217.217.238.232.dyn.user.ono.com PART :#esoteric < 1588288298 309705 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the instruction pointers running in parallel, after almost 10 hours of debugging. < 1588288534 821395 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :The data pointers were being initialised to the position of the # character, but so were the instruction pointers, so I ended up with hundreds of pointers even for simple, 9 byte programs. < 1588288601 142653 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needed to do some "sorcery" with the arrays to make the data pointer start at the split and the instruction pointer start at the character immediately to the right mod the length of the program[0]. < 1588288637 734696 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, here's a demo of the splitting character #. < 1588288647 780663 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code: < 1588288648 724663 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :V < 1588288671 887778 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Output: #V < 1588288813 298723 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588288821 484801 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still implementing e and f. I'll send you the finished documentation. < 1588288973 476336 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implemented them, after 10 hours and 22 minutes of debugging. < 1588289063 238933 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the interpreter is only 4952 bytes. < 1588289113 354310 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588289207 829502 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :All programs that worked in TrainCode v1 work in TrainCode v2, with a few specific exceptions. < 1588289215 608809 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the quine still works. < 1588289259 480815 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588289365 913917 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588289380 919184 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588289431 622119 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1588290736 535823 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588291005 412176 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds