< 1585875189 67233 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com QUIT :Changing host < 1585875189 67378 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister JOIN :#esoteric < 1585875823 98273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone knows that naming something "final version" is almost always a bad idea, because there will be a later vesrion. and "modern" or "contemporary" is also almost always a bad idea, because your book title WILL read stupid a few decades from now. but I'm starting to suspect that naming technological things "mini" or "micro" or "nano" or "tiny" or "compact" is also a bad idea, because something < 1585875829 104329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :smaller will come along later and your name will sound silly. just look at "compact flash cards" and "compact disks" < 1585876111 875450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: right, I should have looked on the scryfall wiki first: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Hero_(card_type) < 1585876323 818423 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:482c:2d8:8a63:3a20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585876573 73652 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so that is what it is. (It still isn't quite so clear how it is working. Vanguards aren't permanents, but heroes presumably would have to be, in order for their functions to work.) < 1585876586 859523 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:482c:2d8:8a63:3a20 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1585876815 292888 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d5b9:395c:ba15:dd58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585877139 342055 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d5b9:395c:ba15:dd58 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1585877262 305651 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:893c:e941:9d55:3676 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585877358 818223 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:bdbc:6b:2615:748b JOIN :#esoteric < 1585877557 296359 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:893c:e941:9d55:3676 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1585877615 822171 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:bdbc:6b:2615:748b QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1585878316 502866 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qgbjcmphlzxnvlvq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1585879266 968773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585879268 937169 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Changing host < 1585879268 937216 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1585879827 983488 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585883252 914090 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585883577 259744 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1585883837 300557 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:bdbc:6b:2615:748b JOIN :#esoteric < 1585884131 334365 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:bdbc:6b:2615:748b QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1585887148 246377 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585889617 728926 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hovhomidionhhtrh PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION yawns, waves for the first time in some time < 1585890953 585294 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn-wave < 1585891004 190258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody should try that in a stadion... get a column to yawn simultaneously, see how infectious yawns really are) < 1585891299 48567 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1585891540 784018 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hovhomidionhhtrh PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol < 1585892022 401158 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1585892212 849529 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585892965 764427 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1585893175 751259 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1585895286 235279 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1585896277 891045 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585896487 967872 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585897178 828418 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9854:db82:6264:8d67 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585897315 296387 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1585897357 832653 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9458:c55f:c0ea:ca82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585897382 757670 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1585897565 827421 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9854:db82:6264:8d67 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1585898362 240921 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flurry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70605&oldid=70558 5* 03Challenger5 5* (-164) 10 < 1585898894 93302 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1585899252 306028 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened < 1585899272 134723 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1585899302 201523 :noomy!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1585899322 858618 :wlp1s1!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric < 1585899346 845030 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1585899383 153310 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :noomy < 1585899385 952584 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1585900063 755241 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.238.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585900621 55806 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1585901478 894459 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.238.3 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1585901499 434559 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.238.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585906040 481570 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585906119 981116 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585906168 883985 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585906169 251348 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1585906304 825309 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585906720 204171 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585908838 55356 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.233.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585908981 375732 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.238.3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1585910587 138446 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rsxvgswbtvvujhju JOIN :#esoteric < 1585912150 921434 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585912331 969151 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585914045 694747 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1585914233 983403 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585914267 772506 :arseniiv__!~arseniiv@136.169.239.247 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585914337 968894 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.233.148 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585914507 981024 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585914728 841124 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585914940 909489 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585915759 821812 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1585918348 273083 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rsxvgswbtvvujhju QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1585918808 775814 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric > 1585919593 94742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:2KWLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70606 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+232) 10Created page with "Are the Unicode double quotes ( as opposed to "") part of the syntax, or are they unintentional? ~~~~" < 1585920793 770691 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1585921575 522081 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585921770 775875 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585922495 355741 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjelmcktecyfwybr JOIN :#esoteric > 1585925537 474658 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Nomennominatur 5* 10New user account > 1585925671 952911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70607&oldid=70602 5* 03Nomennominatur 5* (+113) 10 > 1585925713 21484 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70608&oldid=70607 5* 03Nomennominatur 5* (+0) 10 < 1585927037 489716 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1585927042 66568 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585927046 809749 :diverger!~div@172.83.44.83 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585927079 835774 :diverger!~div@172.83.44.83 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585928267 836561 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9458:c55f:c0ea:ca82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1585928639 68295 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd JOIN :#esoteric < 1585931519 47925 :esowiki!~esowiki@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/esowiki JOIN :#esoteric < 1585934477 148268 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i'm working on resolving the remaining TODOs in BB.txt < 1585934649 916467 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585935378 976989 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1585936562 979398 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1585936788 134283 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1585937579 414401 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0486e-15.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1585937769 65082 :arseniiv__!~arseniiv@136.169.239.247 NICK :arseniiv < 1585938283 832303 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1585940382 848572 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585940603 236388 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0486e-15.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1585940881 87577 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For those interested in an update on the MTG deck using The Waterfall Model to get BB numbers while still not going infinite, our current bound is BB_16(120) < 1585940884 432662 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where BB_1(x) is the normal busy beaver function and BB_2(x) is BB_1(x) nested instances of BB_1(x) < 1585941008 272664 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We still have a little room and are no longer restricted to 6 clocks (now over 100) < 1585941050 491773 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be helpful would be knowing whether the Flooding variant is Turing complete or not. < 1585941640 975397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver42: I wanted to ask, what is the defn of BB_k? < 1585941694 143847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only say what BB_2 is and it"s not clear how to continue < 1585942208 851985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also doesn't BB have two inputs, the nr of clocks and the bound on the matrix elements, and you vary only the latter? < 1585942249 386072 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bound on the matrix imput < 1585942287 938465 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB_n+1(x) is BB_n(x) nested BB_n(x) times < 1585942370 484195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you always have 120 clocks? what is the matrix elt bound at the start? < 1585942392 532895 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :once we have more than 6 clocks we can implement a UTM where the simulated TM is bound by the input < 1585942424 424462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it might not matter, you get a number that's larger than I can imagine < 1585942448 925398 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we max out our clocks at half the number of creature types < 1585942501 425230 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 120 constant is the number of large life gains we can get in the setup < 1585942567 427047 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is mostly from the limits of the opponent's deck size < 1585942697 857355 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have them draw 53 cards and discard 60 for 113 just from their deck < 1585942849 967940 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you get the output value from the waterclock machine? < 1585942927 533221 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we make mana via Mana echoes and turn that into storm for Thousand Year Storm < 1585942994 195334 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And eventually run out of attack steps so we have the last one trample over and kill them < 1585943131 934113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what value does that read from the abstract machine? it's just that 120 sounds too small and I want to see this can even start to grow > 1585943181 183974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70609&oldid=70590 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+33) 10/* M */ < 1585943231 311968 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585943404 648263 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well theres a bit of rounding being lost in the bound. We get a few iterations just using our starting life total, and we can easily make our starting matrix for the first computation have values far more than 10^^^^10 < 1585943491 118038 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was what ais theorized was required to get BB numbers with the 6 waterclock version < 1585944004 852174 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1585944110 541079 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure exactly how big we can get the first computation, most of the tiers we get for the BB function also apply to our pre BB setup to get up to 10->10->16, but it doesn't show in the overall estimation) < 1585944148 354394 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjelmcktecyfwybr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1585944196 727339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ADDI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70610&oldid=65119 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+7730) 10copied operator tables < 1585944331 533662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, iterating BB_n BB_n times to get BB_{n+1} is crazy < 1585944338 524863 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our first computation would last on the order of BB(x) ticks, and we's get BB(x) colorless mana, which becomes BB(x) storm, and then BB(x) extra combat steps at the cost of a red mana < 1585944339 692818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will result in even larger numbers than I can imagine < 1585944348 801550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you do BB_16 < 1585944376 733775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds crazy big, unless you messed something up and it just doesn't work and the deck can just deal 500 damage or something < 1585944428 556859 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more likely is we have missed an infinite and the deck is disqualified :( > 1585944448 893949 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Minimal operation language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70611&oldid=70600 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+11) 10/* Syntax */ < 1585944537 198602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1585944556 323003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(BB(10^^^^10)) is already much larger than any number that I can imagine < 1585944563 624503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :very likely even BB(10^^^^10) is < 1585944754 360537 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even BB(1919) is beyond ZFC set theory < 1585944911 279969 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that someone has explicitly made a 2 symbol, 1919 state Turing Machine that halts IFF ZFC is inconsistent. < 1585944950 151088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver42: yes, but that's for the turing machine BB, not for the waterclock BB < 1585944959 335312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for waterclocks, 1919 is probably not enough < 1585944984 256966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^^^^10 is way more than enough with a few dozen clocks < 1585945024 38110 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but they still grow at an uncomputable rate < 1585945031 323764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, that particular 1919 state machine probalby does not halt < 1585945034 396474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't really help you < 1585945072 791139 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rate, sure, I was just afraid that if you start form 120, then you get something silly like BB(120) = 1, and you can't even start to increase your numbers < 1585945085 972415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hope you checked that that's not the case with your construction < 1585945165 790104 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no we can easily grow faster, consider the examples on the tutorial http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/ < 1585945183 389423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, beaver is particularly thematic for a waterclock machine, because they build dams < 1585945205 120682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it should be like "busy ant" for a turing machine, and "busy beaver" for waterclock < 1585945242 361612 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of the halting examples take more than their maximum value to halt < 1585945340 654109 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, the name and theme of TWM is particularly suited to this challenge < 1585945438 423789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would be "busy bee" for a machine with a RAM, and "busy bird" for something based on combinator calculus or lambda calculus < 1585945510 914263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: do you call it busy bird function? < 1585945522 8732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the binary lambda calculus one that is < 1585945655 294458 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd PRIVMSG #esoteric :lno; i just call it BB_lambda < 1585945693 360996 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can see at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form < 1585945768 977366 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you define one for combinators it's gonna grow slower < 1585946338 376142 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rcekkuegnxviwrtt JOIN :#esoteric < 1585946809 686676 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d936:ceb9:7e8:f6dd PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB.txt updated in repo < 1585947757 785567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.247 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1585948661 851550 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can division by zero errors be caught in Turbo Pascal? < 1585948898 455073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: division of what type? < 1585948948 812611 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer division. < 1585949007 344033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but 16-bit or 32-bit? because 16-bit is a cpu built in instruction, but 32-bit need not be if you're compiling for 286. also, for what target? DOS or Win16? < 1585949040 897549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for DOS and 16-bit, you can probably just override the interrupt handler, as long as you restore the original handler when your program exits < 1585949048 656577 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sixteen bits. Target is DOS. < 1585949072 869697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then probably override the interrupt handler. < 1585949105 929035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :turbo pascal has a well-defined register use ABI so you can interface it with machine code < 1585949237 423689 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585949374 385152 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1585949407 261433 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1585949599 102183 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if Turbo Pascal has a IF expression (like C has the ?: expression)? < 1585949624 473510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think it has one, but you'll have to check the help < 1585949649 711294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you need a lazy one? < 1585949661 532962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean a shortcut one < 1585949693 160007 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1585949717 778261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need a proper if statement, but I'm not sure < 1585949720 748361 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course I can do without, although it would be helpful to have it if it does have.) < 1585949790 495767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: could you use borland C++ instead? you can even link compilation units among them together if you write C prototypes of the pascal functions, and compile exported C functions with the pascal calling convention < 1585949810 307883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even has a slightly better optimizer < 1585949828 995814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a comparably good library that comes with them < 1585949846 686137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though really ancient, confusing if you are used to modern C or modern C++ < 1585949866 77130 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it is a good reason to change everything to C just due to such an operator, since a IF expression isn't really needed < 1585949873 908891 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, be REALLY careful with code that uses the "long long" type, because the borland compiler believes that's just a strange spelling of "long" and accepts it without warning and gives you a 32-bit integer < 1585949939 743914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, that alone isn't a good reason to change < 1585950032 672741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the pascal compiler is at least small. I could put turbo.exe (the GUI) and the few files it needs (but not the command-line compiler) to my compressed boot floppy with enough space for other programs, that's impossible for the borland C compiler with just a single 1.44 MB floppy < 1585950109 809076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you can probably afford multiple floppies, or a hard disk < 1585950131 223905 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am storing the files on the hard disk < 1585950152 207092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :termbot had both the pascal and the C compiler runnable from command line from its hard disk < 1585950160 916341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also qbasic) < 1585950202 132077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but qbasic is very hard to use, because its PRINT statement and error messages don't write to stdout/stderr) < 1585950252 885376 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that C is the best programming language for real-mode PC programming, due to the memory segmentation. < 1585950273 996392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: borland C has extensions to C for that < 1585950339 109906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can declare pointers that point to specific program segments, dereference pointers to a specific segment, even have variables of type pointer to segment and dereference using those, or just have far or huge pointers < 1585950339 148042 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1585950361 323637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC there's a special infix operator :> to combine a segment with an offset < 1585950385 87082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of cousre you may still want to write some or all of your program in assembly, simply because the compiler doesn't optimize too well < 1585950506 191240 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I am using Pascal is because I am modifying a program that is already written in Pascal, anyways. < 1585950566 311136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you want to compile it for DOS, as opposed to port it to a more modern linux pascal compiler? < 1585950626 557497 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am compiling it for DOS. (I have no intention to port this program to other operating systems, although some other people are, either in Pascal or by rewriting it in C.) < 1585950657 114742 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is ZZT. Do you like ZZT? < 1585950682 346943 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't follow these game engines much < 1585950958 807433 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made many changes, including removing the editor (in order to save memory; but there are external editors that can be used instead), allowing pushing X to clear the message line during game play, making HOME and END keys work in popup text windows, displaying file modification times in the save game menu, getting rid of the configuration menu and help menu (to save both memory and time), etc < 1585951398 222609 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does DOSBOX implement EMS? < 1585951406 477370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope so < 1585951513 868765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if not, there are other emulators < 1585951929 929692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: try to run the MEM command, that should at least tell if EMM is enabled in your current config < 1585952002 608533 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says 15168 Kb free expanded memory, so it looks like it is implemented (although I don't know if there are problems with the implementation). < 1585952310 48460 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another emulator is Zeta, which is sometimes used with ZZT, although Zeta does not implement EMS as far as I can tell (even though the author of Zeta has also written the code to allow ZZT to use EMS) < 1585952452 343153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I used Dosbox very little. I just ran most of my DOS programs on a real MS-DOS in a machine emulated by Bochs < 1585952462 425145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, after I stopped running native DOS that is < 1585952516 690775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DOS windows in Win16 < 1585952649 401813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-68.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's sort of orthogonal, I have ran Win16 in the Bochs virtual machine < 1585953127 41173 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is only one 16-bit Windows program I intend to run on my computer, which is Hero Mesh, so that I can test the behaviour to see that the behaviour of Free Hero Mesh in compatibility mode matches that of Hero Mesh. < 1585957283 809229 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1585957757 536259 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1585958335 926810 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection