←2020-03-09 2020-03-10 2020-03-11→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:47:04 <arseniiv> I counted all the ordinals, all of them!
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01:13:26 <int-e> classy
01:19:43 <kmc> how many were there
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01:44:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> Update on where we are at on the MTG max damage deck implementing The Waterfall Method with ~124 waterclocks to get Busy Beaver numbers
01:45:20 <MTGBusyBeaver> We have managed to allow us to iterate the Busy Beaver function.
01:45:42 <MTGBusyBeaver> ... A Busy Beaver number of times
01:47:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions
01:50:06 <MTGBusyBeaver> We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X)
01:50:47 <kmc> that's a very busy beaver indeed
01:54:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> proving TWM turing complete with 12 clocks (and a halting clock) improves the X, and possibly opens up other improvements, Even better is proving the "growing" or "flooding" variant of TWM.
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05:16:06 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70233&oldid=70232 * A * (+61) Add the infix counterparts
05:19:07 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70234&oldid=70233 * A * (+17051) You really need to copy the text here. Because if Pastebin broke down...
05:43:40 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70235&oldid=70234 * A * (+5797) Take a look at my mass-produced table!
05:43:59 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70236&oldid=70235 * A * (-176) Whoops, left some testing code in.
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05:59:47 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70237&oldid=69995 * A * (+86)
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11:07:22 <wib_jonas> why does python not have a command-line option to add directories to the module search path, like perl -I ?
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11:11:06 <cpressey> Because Python programmers love typing the word PYTHONPATH.
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11:44:21 <Taneb> (I still don't get how those MtG people are managing to iterate the busy beaver function)
11:47:57 <cpressey> Taneb: I think of it this way: there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers.
11:48:40 <cpressey> It recognizes smaller numbers, too - I think that's unavoidable.
11:48:55 <cpressey> But BB(BB(100)) is the largest finite number it recognizes.
11:49:44 <Taneb> So they're calculating a set with an upper bound of BB(BB(100))?
11:51:04 <cpressey> For a certain deck, there is a set of possible plays; the largest-damage play in this deck does a damage of BB(BB(100)). They don't *calculate* it. But it is a *possible* play of the deck.
11:51:31 <cpressey> If you were to somehow guess it, you could play it. You wouldn't *know* you guessed it.
11:51:50 <cpressey> Importantly: any larger guess would not be playable, with this deck.
11:52:18 <Taneb> Right, I think I understand now
11:52:47 <Taneb> They're making decks with extremely high but finite upper bounds on how much damage they can do
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11:56:00 <cpressey> Right (and part of that is disallowing a deck if it can deal unbounded damage).
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12:04:14 <esowiki> [[Dotsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70238 * Quadril-Is * (+333) Quick copy paste from samsung notes
12:05:08 <cpressey> "100" is just picked out of the air. int-e used 10^100. I think the actual constant is limited by what you can encode in the deck.
12:05:50 <cpressey> But I'm not sure you couldn't also make a deck iterate BB multiple times, so you could maybe BB(BB(BB(BB(BB(6))))) - you probably don't need a large constant.
12:10:28 <Taneb> 01:47 MTGBusyBeaver: so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions
12:10:28 <Taneb> 01:50 MTGBusyBeaver: We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X)
12:12:25 <wib_jonas> wait what_
12:12:31 <wib_jonas> really?
12:13:44 <Taneb> I only have MTGBusyBeaver's word for it
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12:59:25 <Cale> hmm
13:03:20 <longname> 08:02 <+Lisbeth> Sorry N33R I just love seeing your reaction
13:03:24 <longname> aaaaa
13:03:45 <longname> it keeps accidentally copy/pasting
13:05:43 <arseniiv> <kmc> how many were there => |Ord| many
13:06:12 <Cale> The value of BB(1919) is already independent of ZFC
13:07:36 <arseniiv> uh I may have answered “two many”, damn
13:08:05 <arseniiv> might*
13:11:17 <Cale> Quantifiers get really weird here. While it's obviously the case that given any natural number n, we can give a construction of a Turing machine that recognises numbers up to n, when we have no way of explicitly writing down the numeral for n, and instead it's a natural number that is defined by some formula, we immediately run into cases where constructing such a Turing machine is no longer so easy.
13:11:44 <Cale> So, while you can say "there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers", and in some sense it's obviously true
13:14:01 <Cale> There's something a bit weird about it, because we don't know (and it'll be undecidable for practically any system of mathematics we've devised) which number that is, and it doesn't seem easy to otherwise produce a machine that would have to fit the bill regardless.
13:16:35 <Cale> So if you wanted to write down the precise states of the machine in its entirety, even with an unlimited amount of paper, it would be beyond us and it's not even entirely clear that such a thing is well-defined. :D
13:17:11 <Cale> (because the values of busy beaver numbers become independent of axiomatic systems so quickly)
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13:36:31 <cpressey> What gets me is, if you were to somehow (miraculously!) guess BB(BB(100)), the NTM would accept it, but you'd never know if the number you guessed was *actually* BB(BB(100)). The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too. How that necessity comes about definitely feels a little weird to me.
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13:52:57 <Cale> cpressey: Well, if somehow we could prove in ZFC that a Turing machine with a concrete representation only accepted, for example, BB(1919), then there would additionally be a finite sequence of steps in ZFC explaining the evaluation of that Turing machine on a particular numeral n = S(S(S...(SZ)...) and thus deciding the value of BB(1919). But there is a Turing machine with 1919 states which unless ZFC is
13:52:57 <Cale> inconsistent, ZFC can't prove that it terminates, because the machine searches for contradictions in ZFC.
13:57:49 <Cale> At the same time, it's fine that ZFC proves that such a Turing machine exists in the sense of proving a sentence of the form (exists x. ...) because it doesn't necessarily tell us what that machine is.
14:30:24 <cpressey> "The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too" <-- After taking a walk, I think this is not quite right now. But it all makes my head spin.
14:38:24 <Taneb> You can definitely make a turing machine that accepts that number and only that number, if you happen to out-of-band know what that number happens to be
14:41:05 <cpressey> "Do you accept this number?" "Yes." "Do you accept any smaller numbers?" "No." "Do you accept any larger numbers?" "Beats me, pal."
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14:47:13 <MTGBusyBeaver> Sorry to miss the earlier conversation about how we iterate the BB function
14:48:07 <Taneb> No worries, I'm satisfied with it now
14:50:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> Without going too deep into the technical details, the TM outputs a resource (life) that we can use to increase the efficiency of our conversion into more/bigger TMs
14:51:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> chaining these together lets us get higher order BB functions.
14:53:28 <wib_jonas> sure, but don't you run out of kinds of resources? M:tG doesn't offer that many easily usable types, and you need some for internal use by the turing machine, and some for the part before that generates the resource that limits the entries of the waterfall matrix
14:54:14 <wib_jonas> don't you get all sorts of conflicts where the cards of the deck can be used in ways other than you planned?
14:56:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes the number of resources is why we are at about BB_6 instead of higher.
14:56:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> The TM itself uses creatures and bans many instants
14:57:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> The setup is extremely limiting with the number of creatures and enchantments we can have total
14:57:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> (non aura enchantments)
14:58:24 <wib_jonas> ok, but BB_6 of a non-small number still sounds hard to attain to me, so I'll have to look up the details later
14:59:33 <MTGBusyBeaver> The TM construction uses 2 creature types per waterclock, so we are limited to 124 waterclock (plenty enough to implement a Universal TM)
14:59:51 <wib_jonas> yes, that part doesn't sound too limiting
15:00:29 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes I plan on getting this properly written up so that interested parties dont have to comb through the 100+ page forum thread.
15:01:00 <wib_jonas> ah yes, that's always the plan. at least there's a forum thread and irc logs where I'll be able to see the main ideas
15:02:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> well I did it for beating ghram's number in standard last year
15:02:34 <wib_jonas> I don't even know yet how you'll get a waterclock from Door of Destinies... no wait, what enchantment was it?
15:03:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name rotlung reanimator
15:03:10 <HackEso> Rotlung Reanimator \ 2B \ Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 2/2 \ Whenever Rotlung Reanimator or another Cleric dies, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token. \ ONS-R
15:03:19 <wib_jonas> Coat of Arms
15:03:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name coat of arms
15:03:26 <HackEso> Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R
15:03:40 <wib_jonas> I do understand the Rotlung Reanimator construction, more or less
15:03:48 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name Dralnu's crusade
15:03:49 <HackEso> Dralnu's Crusade \ 1BR \ Enchantment \ Goblin creatures get +1/+1. \ All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types. \ PS-R
15:03:59 <wib_jonas> there are three cards like Rotlung Reanimator, and they are very important for all these constructions
15:04:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah we actually use bishop of wings but thats probably not in the DB
15:04:33 <wib_jonas> ...
15:04:37 <wib_jonas> ok, then there's more than three
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15:05:21 <wib_jonas> I knew of Rotlung Reanimator, Xathrid Necromancer, Hungry Lynx.
15:05:39 <MTGBusyBeaver> hungry lynx doesnt make tokens, it buffs tokens
15:06:02 <MTGBusyBeaver> it got replaced by coat of arms
15:06:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> to not be a triggered effect
15:06:17 <wib_jonas> doesn't matter, it still refers two different creature types that you can evolve
15:06:27 <wib_jonas> in an assymetric manner
15:06:34 <wib_jonas> that's sort of the limiting factor
15:07:06 <wib_jonas> we have very few cards that refer two creature types in such a way that we can use it for constructions where one creature type is the trigger and the other is the action and it's repeatable enough to run the program
15:07:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah so the construction is a bunch of crusades saying all X' are X
15:08:05 <MTGBusyBeaver> and the bishops triggering on X dying to make a',b',c's
15:08:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> and remaking the one X
15:08:37 <wib_jonas> but if you still have a card like Bishop of Wings in, then I'm not too surprised
15:08:50 <wib_jonas> I assumed too much when you mentioned the Coat of Arms
15:09:02 <wib_jonas> I mean, I'm still surprised about BB_6 on a large number
15:09:11 <wib_jonas> but not about having a working universal computer
15:09:29 <wib_jonas> just surprised on having a deck with such a large damage limit but no infinite damage loop
15:09:37 <wib_jonas> without DMM's additional rules
15:10:01 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes there are often unintended infinites that need to get patched out
15:12:12 <wib_jonas> you know that ais's original attempt to simulate StackFlow failed beacuse of too much freedom on putting triggers onto the stack, and we never found a fix for that, right?
15:12:24 <wib_jonas> that's why it scared me when you mentioned trigger stacking order about this construction
15:13:00 <wib_jonas> eventually ais invented The Waterfall Machine instead, and simulated that, so that problem got solved, but still
15:13:23 <MTGBusyBeaver> that's why coat of arms is perfect, it doesnt matter what order the tokens get made in
15:13:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> they will all be the same size
15:13:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> and will all die at the same time
15:15:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> we do need to force only our opponent to have bishops when the TM starts running
15:15:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> so that the arcbond trigger is forced to be at the bottom.
15:16:50 <wib_jonas> but I don't understand how Coat of Arms is used, or how you're using creature types
15:17:12 <wib_jonas> do you have two creature types per clock? and how do you use them?
15:17:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah 2 perclock
15:18:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> we have the main creature type and a secondary type for each clock
15:19:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> Dralnu's crusade gets hacked to say that the primary type is also the secondary type
15:20:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> Bishops trigger on the primary type dying and make secondary types for the appropriate clocks and also remake the primary
15:22:01 <MTGBusyBeaver> Coat of arms causes the secondary creatures to buff the primary ones, keeping them at the proper distance from dead, as well as ensuring that any damage that kills the primary will also kill all of the secondaries.
15:22:26 <wib_jonas> so you only have one creature per primary creature type?
15:22:30 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes
15:22:37 <wib_jonas> that might work
15:22:58 <wib_jonas> then only that one creature causes death triggers, but it takes its size from the lots of creatures of the secondary type
15:23:19 <wib_jonas> that's a new idea, I don't think I've seen it in the previous constructions, and it does explain Coat of Arms
15:25:43 <wib_jonas> that's a nice trick
15:26:14 <wib_jonas> there are a few cards that have such triggers built-in, I'll have to look at them if they're usable for something:
15:26:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, though we'd also like to know/prove if the variant without Dralnu's crusades is TC, there its just one creature type so the death triggers start getting multiplied and compoinding pretty quick
15:26:46 <wib_jonas> Mark of the Oni; Stenchskipper
15:29:48 <wib_jonas> maybe Ophiomancer but unlikely
15:30:28 <MTGBusyBeaver> (tentatively calling it Flooded Waterfall Machine, because it causes overflow)
15:32:21 <wib_jonas> Aysen Crusader
15:32:48 <wib_jonas> no, none of those will work easily because you can't bring them back
15:32:58 <wib_jonas> it has to be external like the Coat of Arms
15:34:22 <MTGBusyBeaver> and happen quickly, not waiting until end of turn, (we only get one)
15:34:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> (did I mention that this is all happening on turn 1?)
15:35:05 <wib_jonas> sure, that makes sense
15:36:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> anyway g2g be on later.
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15:36:47 <wib_jonas> Alex Churchill et all's construction happens over (twice) as many turns as the underlying machine runs, but you can't do that if you want no infinite damage loops in your machine
15:36:54 <wib_jonas> s/all's/et al/
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17:12:22 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70239&oldid=70191 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+886)
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18:08:07 <esowiki> [[ZFC++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70240&oldid=70168 * Hakerh400 * (+16)
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18:56:31 <kspalaiologos> ,[>[-]<[->+<],]>[>+>+<<-]<-[>+<-----]>-->>[-[->>+<]>[<]<]>>[-<<++>>]<<<[->-<]+>[<->[-]][-]+>[-]<<[<.>>-]>[<<-.>>->] <- an interesting thingy in Brainfuck; around 100 byte isEven, requires uint8_t cells and 0 on EOF
18:56:59 <kspalaiologos> supports arbitrary length integers
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20:25:17 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70241&oldid=70239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1631)
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22:13:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70242&oldid=70183 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Siterip]]
22:13:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70243&oldid=70167 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Siterip]]
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22:14:36 <esowiki> [[Siterip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70244 * Hakerh400 * (+49652) +[[Siterip]]
22:15:25 <ais523> hmm, I've finally figured out why you can't create an infinite damage loop with the present construction
22:15:35 <ais523> it's set up so that you can't interrupt a damage loop at instant speed
22:15:46 <ais523> so either the loop ends naturally (e.g. with the opponent dying) in which case it isn't infinite
22:16:06 <ais523> or else, the loop /is/ infinite, but in that case the game ends in a draw before any damage is actually dealt, because it's infinite
22:16:23 <ais523> the important point is that you can't have any manual control over the amount of damage dealt once the loop is started
22:23:12 <ais523> this feels unsatisfyingly tautologous, it's "you can't create an infinite loop because you can't create an infinite loop"
22:23:30 <ais523> but it more boils down to "you can't create an arbitrarily large loop because you have no mechanism to specify an arbitrarily large number"
22:24:07 <ais523> it's rather counterintuitive to the normal idea of "no infinite combos", though; there are infinite combos, which can kill opponents from any amount of life, but you can't overkill via a chosen amount of life so it still fits the definition
22:27:03 <b_jonas> so you can't deal an unlimited amount of life and continue the match
22:27:09 <b_jonas> game
22:28:07 <b_jonas> sort of like http://anselan.com/tutorial.html
22:38:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, can the second case, the case when you deal an unlimited amount of damage to the opponent but you do this so fast that he never loses the game, even happen? I don't think such a tight loop is possible, because the opponent would lose at state-based effect speed.
22:39:58 <b_jonas> or do you just mean an infinite loop that doesn't deal damage to the opponent?
22:40:51 <ais523> `card-by-name Arcbond
22:40:52 <HackEso> Arcbond \ 2R \ Instant \ Choose target creature. Whenever that creature is dealt damage this turn, it deals that much damage to each other creature and each player. \ FRF-R
22:41:30 <ais523> the specific example is two copies of Arcbond on creatures with lifelink and indestructible
22:41:42 <ais523> the loop does damage on every iteration, but the players gain life too, so it never actually exits
22:41:55 <ais523> this would be "infinite damage" except that the game rules prevent the loop happening, because it has no way to end
22:42:15 <ais523> (the actual combo doesn't IIRC involve lifelink at the moment, but it has an alternative method to gain the players life)
22:43:33 <b_jonas> oh wtf. why would Wizards think that's a good idea to print, even as a rare?
22:43:55 <b_jonas> ah, the players gain life
22:43:59 <b_jonas> tricky
22:44:36 <ais523> double arcbond is used for the steady decrement in the current busy beaver TWM construction
22:44:39 <b_jonas> and yes, the opponent gaining life explains why my reasoning is wrong
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22:45:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not surprised about constructions using them. I'm just surprised that they printed that in a standard-legal set.
22:46:32 <b_jonas> so what you mustn't put in these decks are combos that are unlimited and a player can choose how many times they execute it
22:46:54 <b_jonas> at least if there's any possibility that something from it can be converted to damage to the opponent
22:47:16 <ais523> right
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