< 1578268809 13128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a "new" thing, in the sense that it became used during the time I've been using linux < 1578268877 231599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :earlier we only had ordinary file systems backed on ramdisks, which are like flat virtual devices that are stored in the (virtual) memory, swappable, but then the kernel has to do most of the work that it would have to do to represent the file system on a (very fast) flat block device < 1578268878 273690 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically the data I want the external program to read is a blob in a SQLite database; maybe I should have mentioned that at first. < 1578268889 135709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tmpfs is more efficient < 1578268909 479173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS also supports ramdisk < 1578268958 342035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but what does the program that you spawn do with its input and output? < 1578268980 978509 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Converts it into a different format. < 1578269013 390280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the input and output very large? do you need interactivity, that is, do you want to get part of the output while you're still streaming the input? < 1578269021 989260 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do you do with the output? < 1578269031 417511 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And actually it isn't the entire blob; a few bytes at the beginning will be skipped, and this number may vary.) < 1578269091 651916 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The input and output are potentially large, because it is a picture of the art in a card (e.g. the art box in a Magic: the Gathering card). < 1578269095 312555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also is the sql database in a file that is slow to read, and do you want to be able to stop reading early in case of an error? < 1578269116 703659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: just small vs large doesn't matter (unless it's so small that you just pass it in the argv), I'm asking if it can be very large < 1578269136 313150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not too large < 1578269137 362976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be very large if you are printing at a high resolution. < 1578269179 205958 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SQL database is already open by the main program (TeXnicard; maybe telling it is TeXnicard is also useful to you I don't know) < 1578269237 532280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably just write the input data to a temporary regular file on a fast file system. if you can conveniently pass file descriptors to the program that you spawn, then unlink the file and pass just a file descriptor, that way if something goes wrong it's less likely that you have the temp file file remain on the disk. < 1578269296 717883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you usually don't even need an actual tmpfs, if you don't have security requirements, because if everything fits in memory and you delete the file soon then the file won't leave the cache, and if it doesn't fit in memory then writing it out to the disk is a feature, < 1578269328 209674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have a fast swap device and no readily accessible file system on the fast device and no file system cache on the fast device, then you may want a tmpfs anyway < 1578269335 412375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not a common configuration these days < 1578269396 25848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux can now even handle the case when you store the file system on a slower rotating disk but cache it on a large SSD, because this is getting a commonly useful case < 1578269410 520133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to configure it well, and I don't know the details, but I hear it's working well < 1578269419 434936 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it has that, but I thought of that too. < 1578269452 728479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that need not be true if you're using old operating system software though, but then you likely won't have a fast SSD < 1578269484 655210 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00b4e2aa8916d87172.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: β€œIt’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1578269496 708538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know what happens on Windows, I deliberately avoid all system administration responsibilities for Windows and don't want to learn more than I really need for my job < 1578269517 283908 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. I don't work in system administration, but I need to administer my work desktop a bit to just use it for work < 1578269551 520796 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write the data from the database to an external file and then pass that to the external program and then read back the output into memory, I suppose, since the output is likely to be larger than the input, but then that requires making a copy of the data < 1578269573 533851 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what will you do with the output? < 1578269579 73325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will you send it to a printer? < 1578269598 925169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or show it on the screen? < 1578269714 6643 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be combined with an in-memory picture < 1578269723 993596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this case hasn't come up for me, because I always just had the compressed image or video data stored in a disk file, and the raw data in memory going through a pipe < 1578269797 216268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one case the uncompressed data was also in a disk file, but in a format that I had to decode in my program (not sqlite specifically), but even then the other side, the compressed data went to disk files < 1578270018 11656 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my case the compressed data is in a SQLite database rather than a file by itself, and there should not be any need to store the uncompressed data in any file. The blob starts with a flag byte and then the MIME type (omitting "image/" if it belongs to that category, otherwise the full MIME type) and then the data in the format specified by the MIME type, and the configuration file specifies how to decode it. < 1578270068 251204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I presume the same database contains other metadata over just the images < 1578270079 263873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you don't just store the compressed image in a separate file < 1578270204 177904 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is true. < 1578270236 688318 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is why it isn't stored in a separate file. < 1578270613 801161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if you want to eg. send the uncompressed data to the printer, you can consider trying to not send that data through your process, so that your process only send ths compressed image to the forked process, and then the convereted output from that process is sent to whatever program does the printing < 1578270716 507187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you don't need any non-blocking things < 1578270729 952095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also not too hard to handle the two pipes in a select loop if you really need to < 1578270752 981815 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That picture is not the entire card, though, but only a part of it. And there is no guarantee that there will not be other stuff overlapping, or other things done to it before the page is completed. < 1578270801 429396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This program is meant to render cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering; like MSE but different.) < 1578270827 657325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and you want to process that uncompressed data together with some other data you read from the database, which is why you want it in the same process? < 1578270836 471852 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1578270882 945242 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then either write something to a temporary file (that you unlink when you no longer need), or use a select loop to read and write the pipe in an unknown order < 1578270904 975508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need both sides from the same process then that's mostly what you can do < 1578270942 211748 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though for some converters, you may be sure that it won't start writing even a header before it completely reads its input, in which case you can just write the input to the pipe and then read the output, without select or nonblocking < 1578270959 708279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can depend on the converter and its options < 1578270965 275398 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, OK. Probably I will just copy the data from the database to a temporary file when doing it, I suppose; that seems to be easily enough. < 1578270985 233424 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, about what you said about the converter is true, but such thing is not known by this program < 1578271038 566036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course another possibility is to also put the converter in the same process < 1578271050 400480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I could do with ImageMagick in particualr < 1578271070 911311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has some dynamic libraries and documented interfaces < 1578271077 350371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :C and C++ interfaces < 1578271110 123094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think those allow reading compressed image streams from in memory, though I haven't actually tried that < 1578271126 365383 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although I am not even knowing if it is a format supported by ImageMagick or not, for one thing. < 1578271148 523683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for embedding, I read/wrote the compressed image from/to disk files, I just manipulated the uncompressed image data in memory of the same process < 1578271179 319259 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can easily change how it communicates with the external program later if needed, I suppose.) < 1578271241 741505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but you can do this with some libraries other than ImageMagick too < 1578271283 646202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are good reasons for that, beacuse ImageMagick doesn't natively support everything < 1578271377 458512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I have though, the user can install only the ones they need, rather than needing to add all of the dependencies that you don't use < 1578271379 142899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you can also do conversion to a more convenient image format when you're importing to the database, and later read that convenient (but still compressed) input format with ImageMagick < 1578271459 241283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this can happen if you scan or photograph the card, but then preprocess the image and store the cleaned up image in the database as a jpeg < 1578271591 854964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's when you can also rotate and crop and color correct the scan/photo, not just convert formats < 1578271600 169436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose that can also work, although then I wouldn't need to support more than one format inside the process (since conversion from any other format can be done before importing into the database), but JPEG is probably not a good choice in this case because JPEG is lossy. < 1578271649 108248 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, the picture is not necessarily RGB and it might be CMYK instead.) < 1578271655 691971 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still have more than one formats, since ImageMagick handles multiple formats with a natively built in decoder < 1578271680 63678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ImageMagick abstracts away some of those format differences < 1578271767 79360 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably only the artwork of the card would be stored in the database; the border pictures would be in external files. < 1578271773 744623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1578271787 974966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't change much of what I said < 1578271804 958318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, these days there are too many cards with art extending outside the borders that you might not want to do that < 1578271818 863651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the inner and middle borders that is < 1578271836 922426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it with the outer black (or white) border, except for Un-sets < 1578271897 969503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you're assembling your own cards from art that you have, then you might store different elements of the card separately < 1578271898 53221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether or not the art extends outside of the border wouldn't be built into the program anyways, since that stuff can be controlled by templates. < 1578271923 251116 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you used Magic Set Editor? < 1578271942 794963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one image for the art box, one image for the inner and middle border and text box, one for the text box watermark, and some for mana symbols < 1578271946 57909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't used it < 1578271991 990357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't created physical custom Magic cards, except simple proxies by putting a handwritten slip of paper next to the card inside the sleeve < 1578272079 837037 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different elements of the card would be stored separately, some stuff (specific to these individual cards and the set) in the database, and other stuff (applicable to any cards) in the template. < 1578272256 145270 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are interested in TeXnicard then you should probably join the newsgroups of it. Also, for mana symbols I would probably want to use fonts instead (MSE uses pictures for the mana symbols, but I think to use fonts for the mana symbols will be better). < 1578272303 827367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, if you have a font that contains all forty-something mana symbols, then that can work < 1578272323 409964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the tap and untap symbol < 1578272341 523998 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1578272530 384419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1578272578 61770 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-bvqxmwrzndkpjrfu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1578272606 131575 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-aktndwqlkbybmykz JOIN :#esoteric < 1578272860 518667 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578273146 816834 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think some special effects other than opacity might be needed? < 1578274322 718539 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1578274335 968904 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1578274347 264905 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we discuss magic the gathering in here? < 1578274416 617766 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :my usual irc channel for it is inactive atm < 1578274564 853525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel isn't mainly for Magic: the Gathering, but sometimes we will discuss anything including Magic: the Gathering if there isn't the esoteric programming to discuss at the time, I suppose. < 1578274582 642457 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like to make up custom Magic: the Gathering cards? < 1578274586 680821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or puzzles? < 1578274632 695413 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nylea-based-mono-g/ < 1578274643 941454 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :look good? < 1578274660 592247 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the question i asked < 1578274740 447103 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about looking if a deck is good or not. < 1578274862 179074 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit...i have more than 1 of a card and the format is edh < 1578275000 586583 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, yes you are correct, you have 2x Ripjaw Raptor < 1578275011 431622 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That won't do, so you will have to change it < 1578275225 376009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also invented a file format for deck lists < 1578275501 742354 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1578275510 506656 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone use it? < 1578275549 649889 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1578275667 563977 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-aktndwqlkbybmykz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1578275703 961791 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is a file using that format: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/decks/making_enemies.deck < 1578275731 223145 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the commander, use a [COMMAND] block. < 1578275745 821215 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The and are not needed if it is a single deck.) > 1578275767 756222 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck Contest 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68695&oldid=68694 5* 03Mikadio 5* (-28) 10/* Code that actually works as required */ < 1578275972 694014 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-spamiojmbyyvtixj JOIN :#esoteric < 1578276198 887589 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-spamiojmbyyvtixj QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1578276273 49097 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-lumdeuhqqwotahpv JOIN :#esoteric < 1578276477 235940 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d5e9:bae4:1e92:a72e QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578276519 724642 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-137.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1578276653 762181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck Contest 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68696&oldid=68695 5* 03Mikadio 5* (-3) 10/* Code that actually works as required */ < 1578279806 553189 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578279943 255372 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1578279978 435448 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1578280030 750811 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-lumdeuhqqwotahpv QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1578280039 569126 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-clgsvvbmkgyjpddw JOIN :#esoteric < 1578280802 554730 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1578283323 372016 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you build a tool, and it has no purpose, what's the point of the tool? < 1578283415 740998 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1578283569 228556 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I rewrite my font editor in Rust? < 1578283698 392356 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the purpose? < 1578285462 806696 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a memory leak and I can't find it < 1578285485 330731 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I rewrite it in rust, that is supposed to mean it can't have memory leaks < 1578285491 779623 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What font formats does it use? < 1578285495 748954 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CDF < 1578285499 515370 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :BDF < 1578285508 758410 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1578285514 971467 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it written in now? < 1578285517 356260 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1578285529 560465 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Did you publish it? < 1578285839 989900 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have read of use of farbfeld compressed with bzip2 for picture compression. However, if a picture is in JPEG format then it seem JPEG is a better compression, but farbfeld compressed with bzip2 will be a better compression than PNG in some cases. < 1578285869 262567 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters_tools.tar < 1578285887 794219 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1578286424 307480 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-clgsvvbmkgyjpddw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1578286465 332912 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-vxpubizgfvaclowm JOIN :#esoteric < 1578286562 236207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What transformations can be done to improve JPEG compression without being more lossy? < 1578286576 961904 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming the file that you are trying to transform is already JPEG) < 1578287376 973060 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: valgrind? < 1578287415 685416 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I build this? < 1578287480 543172 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you have a sample file? < 1578287499 829590 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :built it, now I need a sample file. < 1578287810 617389 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters.bdf < 1578287859 635330 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also try pcf2bdf < 1578287917 961645 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it also need s UnicodeData.txt from the unicode foundation < 1578287932 841379 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind linking me that? < 1578287958 881099 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm. < 1578287975 989167 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is how it displays the names) https://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/UnicodeData.txt < 1578287998 645966 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting.. < 1578288004 360588 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I exit the editor? < 1578288012 75210 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl-Q < 1578288024 666342 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ctrl-X to exit without saving < 1578288092 343918 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, yeah that's quite the memory leak. let's see if you clean up your allocated space. < 1578288106 291898 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you want to make a non-Unicode font though? Then the Unicode data is not applicable. < 1578288115 441636 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like you never clean up the file judging by the size of the leak. the input BDF was ~3mb. < 1578288122 612317 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1578288124 994864 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1578288163 502656 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :4,347,372 bytes allocated and in-use at exit, but no double frees. < 1578288195 41213 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I' < 1578288210 457217 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix that and then see if it still has a leak < 1578288264 782107 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that far in but I don't see any buffer cleanup, yeah. < 1578288386 625012 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you load the font, you `malloc` quite a bit of stuff and attach it to the passed-in bdfinfo, but I don't see you freeing it. < 1578288402 742328 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I kinda forgot that valgrind can't tell the difference between things still accessable at exit and things that have "actually" leaked < 1578288405 730164 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that plus a calloc and no free. < 1578288424 772211 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you haven't lost the references to anything, you just haven't cleaned up the stuff you have references to. < 1578288464 273977 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you `calloc` a big ol' hunk of space for some glyphs but you never free them. < 1578288588 263211 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is if you just load a font file, save and close. I imagine if you open another, you'll do the same allocations and lose the previous references. < 1578288597 253450 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think valgrind can tell you which one is "lost", though. < 1578288627 491508 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can and will. < 1578288655 365240 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah apparently I'm bad at know what valgrind is saying < 1578288781 560516 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it meant I actually lost reference to that much < 1578288791 747011 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, just means it's in use at exit. < 1578288802 715108 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll see that with SDL and a couple of other libs. < 1578288992 141441 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to work on making these tools more flexible and possible to work on fonts with different dimensions < 1578289026 597011 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dig the editing aesthetic. a lot of the glyphs are broken for me though. < 1578289072 517488 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it relies on my fon't particular method of displaying braille to look good < 1578289082 229738 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no the braile works great. < 1578289097 711999 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is garbage on my screen, though: "π”…π”‡π”‰π•–π••π•šπ•₯" < 1578289122 580179 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :too compressed I guess. < 1578289316 354137 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://imgur.com/GKQKGJG < 1578289357 399719 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah, I can kinda see the edit part. capitals are just totally gone, though. my terminal is trying lmao. < 1578289358 265118 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says BDF in fraktur and edit in blackboard bold < 1578289421 899088 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my font, bold fraktur I gave up on and I made it uncial instead < 1578289430 224587 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks solid on that screen. < 1578289539 630444 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://imgur.com/yCgc3Kv I like how the unicode consortium added all these but then was like, full superscript and subscript alphabets? that's too far < 1578289583 34304 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode doesn't have those? wtf. < 1578289669 556965 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :superscript small q, large C, Q, S, X, Y, Z are all that is missing for superscript < 1578289709 304958 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up a better character set for the specific use of being used on a fix pitch text grid, such as on a terminal emulator. < 1578289709 738071 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :α΅ƒα΅‡αΆœα΅ˆα΅‰αΆ α΅Κ°β±Κ²α΅Λ‘α΅βΏα΅’α΅– Κ³Λ’α΅—α΅˜α΅›Κ·Λ£ΚΈαΆ» < 1578289726 500437 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell are they missing?! < 1578289746 62893 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do they have against q, C, Q, S, X, Y and Z? < 1578289758 733316 :stux!stux@cosmo.lunarshells.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578289764 654680 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a big argument on the Unicode mailing list about it < 1578289787 755035 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically the rasoning was, unicode isn't supposed to be used for formatting < 1578289794 594135 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :bullshit. < 1578289801 538001 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reasoning is bullshit. < 1578289802 694095 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is bullshit < 1578289822 257808 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a character reversal glyph. < 1578289841 115929 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+202E? < 1578289842 776092 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode is very messy, and is equally bad for all uses. < 1578289902 100254 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it does have the advantage of being compatible with ASCII, at least. < 1578289906 718949 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, bullshit, there's many, many, _many_ cases where unicode makes explicit statements about how a thing should be formatted. if that was a disagreement, the super and subscript forms shouldn't even be included, not this half measure. < 1578290063 285851 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my terminal character coding? (It is not meant to be used for other purposes, though; but there may be other character sets useful for the other purposes.) < 1578290078 133812 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know your terminal character coding. < 1578290081 950604 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it on my todo list to add all the missing ones in hthe PUA in my font < 1578290118 744456 :stux!stux@cosmo.lunarshells.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1578290231 901390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is so far: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce Some stuff may be changed if needed < 1578290262 225841 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of these characters are also in Unicode but also many isn't. < 1578290300 36019 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And in some cases, it does correspond to a Unicode character but the width may differ or the way different characters are distinguished may differ from Unicode.) < 1578290403 640513 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah width is really messy in unicode and one of the goals of my font is to be the only large font that actually has correct width as defined in Unicode Standard Annex #11 East Asian Width < 1578290456 605330 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase no other font maker seems to care, and in particular, GNU unifont has wide devanagari which is stupid < 1578290504 917639 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU unifont totally ignores the fact that nearly all terminals use the annex #11 for width data < 1578290582 101414 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I did is better though. < 1578290638 724403 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578290651 955961 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also think that each program should do one thing well, which is the UNIX philosophy; in this case though it is the character set/coding rather than a program, but still that is what it is. This one does specifically terminal character coding. For other purposes, use something else.) < 1578290674 664993 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1578290699 749460 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578290764 744472 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main goal of my font is to display unicode correctly and more-or-less biguously in a terminal < 1578290809 298028 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. Well, then you have it good for that. But I think that Unicode is the wrong character set for this purpose. < 1578290839 428976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the word "biguously" is not in Wiktionary (nor is "biguous"). < 1578291036 596938 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use biguous because unambiguous seems like a double negative < 1578291376 73855 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1578292464 563639 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that makes my charset madness sound less insane, so good work zzo38 i agree < 1578292490 381719 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: UNIX philosophy < 1578294688 644652 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ghostscript includes a file viewjpeg.ps to print a JPEG file. In the comments where it says the author's address, I found a quine in PostScript. < 1578294846 623674 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, it doesn't take the JPEG file name as a command line argument, even though Ghostscripts supports that. It is easily enough to fix it so that it does, though.) < 1578295617 497030 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578295778 695311 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578296275 470132 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1578296519 498363 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1578297138 36533 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Backhand14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68697&oldid=68472 5* 03Jo King 5* (+141) 10added links to interpreter < 1578297850 697486 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578298014 600719 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1578298034 880409 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1578298040 504056 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578298074 749080 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi all < 1578298926 542151 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1578299379 298840 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: < 1578299388 290622 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, can simulated annealing be used for PCB routing? < 1578299628 603322 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578299703 892961 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe; I don't know. < 1578299942 655347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-215.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1578302593 516846 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1578306785 953683 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://apt.cs.manchester.ac.uk/projects/tools/mucs-pcb/ explicitly mentions simulated annealing. < 1578307413 721236 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578307534 41889 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: sometimes this channel talk about esoteric aspects of Magic: the Gathering. In particular, ais523 presented two attempts at proving M:tG Turing complete, in the sense that you can transform any computation to a game that terminates iff the computation terminates. > 1578307648 180920 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hex9614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68698&oldid=68512 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+206) 10/* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */ < 1578307656 70294 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :See https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow , there's one attempt to proof based on the StackFlow language, which has a bug that we couldn't fix; < 1578307687 319297 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's a later attempt of proof based on a simpler computation model, The Waterfall Model, where the problem hinges on compiling universal computation to a small enough Waterfall Model program < 1578307862 267351 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This latter one is believed to prove at least Turing completeness, and ais523 details it in an article linked from there. < 1578307920 188804 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can get more than Turing completeness if you take the rules for breaking infinite loops literally. < 1578308111 765365 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf. '721.1a The rules for taking shortcuts are largely informal. As long as each player in the game understands the intent of each other player, any shortcut system they use is acceptable.' < 1578308159 841365 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That gives you a lot of leeway when it comes to TC-ness... by choosing sufficiently well-informed players. < 1578308230 383579 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. 712.1c says tournaments are different :/ < 1578308247 373237 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually the article is based on a different construction < 1578308255 430222 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that doesn't use Hungary Lynx and Noxious Ghoul < 1578308662 636968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tournament version of shortcuts is sufficiently fun. < 1578308711 233539 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578309487 246396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, spoilsports: "Non-deterministic loops (loops that rely on decision trees, probability or mathematical convergence) may not be shortcut." < 1578310444 973734 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I (possibly) made a Malbolge interpreter in Malbolge < 1578310526 404517 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1578310530 734962 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :10GB of ram eatenm < 1578310543 260813 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was swapping < 1578311116 130319 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any busy beaver competition? < 1578311175 811747 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, to find ever-busier beavers? < 1578311178 484175 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to my knowlege < 1578311300 258122 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1578311305 329942 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I've got a nice one < 1578311315 212980 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires more gigabytes of memory than there are atoms in universe < 1578311325 300122 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I *know* it will finish, eventually < 1578311355 453569 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many states? < 1578311475 943580 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to tell < 1578311488 844246 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1578311496 951997 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is around 40MB big < 1578311529 429718 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then that's not very interesting < 1578312613 769455 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578313077 740116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.logique.jussieu.fr/~michel/bbc.html has some pertinent numbers < 1578313346 953698 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like you can require more memory than there are atms in the universe with 2 symbols and 7 states < 1578313506 646339 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 6 states, unless you compress the tape (assuming the tape is compressible... which seems likely since we do have a termination proof) < 1578313646 582875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(going by the 10^78 to 10^82 estimate for the number of atoms in the universe, with a very generous margin for error.) < 1578313786 929897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course the tape is very compressible if you accept a description of the form "tape after executing the TM M for n steps, starting from an empty tape". < 1578315865 572192 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578316586 337909 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< In Haskell, we don't talk about immutability. We talk about cytoendohygrobimorphisms in the category of endobiditricomanifolds and other elementary constructs. >> < 1578316597 637828 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric : /r/shittyprogramming gold < 1578316655 97399 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cat /hackenv/wisdom/zygo* < 1578316655 921252 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor. < 1578316696 547126 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha < 1578316712 565363 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` ls /hackenv/wisdom/zygo* < 1578316713 681338 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/wisdom/zygohistomorphic prepromorphism < 1578316727 243925 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578316734 591606 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a monad anyway < 1578316757 640387 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition in our Polish wiki used to look like verses summoning satan < 1578316757 921949 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: https://wiki.haskell.org/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms < 1578316772 709725 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gosh it really exists < 1578316823 858768 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, no one can explain what a monad is. You have to see it for yourself. < 1578316869 68622 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can one make a monad in C? < 1578316878 514587 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other language I'm at least barely familliar with < 1578316920 325333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: https://willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html seems somewhat relevant. < 1578316945 224997 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ah yes, that too < 1578316976 361045 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have my own factorial definition at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs < 1578316977 768435 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578316981 718679 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like scheme < 1578317184 211037 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads in C... I suppose you can come up with some programming patterns, in a similar spirit as OO in C. But I wouldn't expect any benefit from going that route, just obfuscation. < 1578317195 768892 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1578317229 323187 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO < 1578317232 405359 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who would like OO < 1578317244 128168 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need is procedural programming < 1578317260 206279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO gives you associated namespaces for your types. < 1578317263 375613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that. < 1578317274 447507 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main principle of OO is encapsulation < 1578317293 68149 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't have a global state, but rather it's simplified down to object instances < 1578317314 453351 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578317323 810036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("OO gives you namespaces for types" of course is the one benefit that you lose instantly when encoding it in C) < 1578317347 136397 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if two objects instances mutate (send a message) to certain single object, you lose the benefit of encapsulation < 1578317361 73630 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is something that resembles the state < 1578317372 818689 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namespace for types? < 1578317379 296682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really liked OO for MUD programming. < 1578317404 272611 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright? < 1578317417 921999 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about extending C a bit < 1578317420 149831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have monsters as objects, players as objects, things you carry around as objects, rooms as objects... it's mostly very tangible. < 1578317427 441870 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1578317433 922365 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could do this in C < 1578317443 555567 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at linux source code and how the drivers are implemented < 1578317451 646956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you can do this in C" is not a valid argument < 1578317478 865653 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be as comfortable when done procedurally as the example you're giving < 1578317495 904141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically a tautology. (You can program it in C, or you can't program it at all.) < 1578317602 223680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite happy with the fragment of C++ that has structs and classes, no inheritance, and a small amount of templates. I prefer it to doing the same thing in C because of the namespace thing, and well, because templates offer some amount of code generation when you need it. < 1578317652 15443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oh and exceptions see the occasional use as well... as non-local returns.) < 1578318254 309900 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, but with or without implicitly called user-defined destructors (and implicitly called copy/move constructors/initializers)? because that is, I think, what most clearly distinguishes C++ from C. < 1578318338 953273 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one could employ boehm GC < 1578318341 593554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I really try to stick to pod-types. < 1578318345 821570 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all your low level stuff is gone < 1578318694 950091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I do use Haskell too. :P < 1578318722 846640 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas on brainfuck <=> SQLite interop? < 1578318729 949352 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the callbacks < 1578318732 223037 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to get over 'em < 1578318774 800497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go out on a limb and say I have better things to think about. < 1578318811 833144 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's already an amazing thing to think about < 1578318824 863715 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as you use haskell you're probably experienced in CS theory < 1578318843 518146 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you tell me how the f*ck can 3-celled brainfuck be Turing complete < 1578318847 517951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I admire your efforts to deprive "Brainfuck" of its esolang status, but I don't want to be part of it. < 1578318856 404047 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about collatz function < 1578318861 630800 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know it proves turing completness < 1578318874 233272 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it makes no sense to me that you can for example do modulus operation on it < 1578318875 552361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was that one brainfuck system call library thingamajick, what was it called? Wasn't really anything very surprising, though -- just a specific protocol for the input/output instructions. < 1578318876 653701 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: oh you're extending bf and making it a proper language? < 1578318883 371570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: Just work through oerjan's construction. < 1578318895 792504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only slightly tricky!!!1 < 1578318906 947640 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos, wiring up SQLite to write an URL shortener in brainfuck < 1578318919 198329 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, I mean, possibly < 1578318921 649193 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have you added so far? < 1578318933 692318 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interop between brainfuck and sqlite < 1578318941 646989 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently you can just INSERT to the database < 1578318950 236887 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SELECT is being worked on because I can't get over the callback mechanism < 1578318992 131444 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that if I had 3 bignum cells and a brainfuck like language < 1578319000 671961 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove it's turing complete I'd simulate a stack machine < 1578319007 491310 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has two stacks and in result is turing complete < 1578319012 200254 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the proof is more practical < 1578319040 485593 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to push something on a stack I'd just *= 255 & += n; < 1578319047 946539 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to pop something out of the stack I need modulus < 1578319060 516807 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was https://esolangs.org/wiki/Systemf but that's not the one I was thinking of, it was more abstract and didn't introduce any new commands. < 1578319079 204963 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was ESOAPI for ESOOS < 1578319084 745123 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's garbage for userland programming < 1578319092 540300 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that used something along ANSI escapes but better < 1578319117 775985 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: pushing isn't the problem... popping is. < 1578319121 655849 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and https://esolangs.org/wiki/PESOIX < 1578319122 536864 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1578319131 719388 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what I just said < 1578319132 199376 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need a division by a constant with remainder using only two cells. < 1578319137 323603 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578319147 127573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fun thing about Collatz machines is that you get 3 cells for that task, effectively. < 1578319157 332284 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/machines/functions/ < 1578319189 494757 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be possible to translate 3-cell brainfuck to 2-register MM < 1578319204 223236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1578319210 627354 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1578319224 923469 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-register MM is turing complete < 1578319232 891994 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be able to simulate any turing machine < 1578319243 312635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1578319254 863554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :However then it won't be complexity preserving. < 1578319261 268453 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1578319267 961365 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the translation process may never finish < 1578319280 123267 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A direcy, complexity preserving translation will almost certainly need 3 cells. < 1578319283 962022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*direct < 1578319286 864081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cells/counters/ < 1578319293 117798 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or yeah < 1578319306 638499 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nut the thing that bothers me the most in this case are unbalanced loops < 1578319336 775610 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because one can't refer to variable register using MM < 1578319347 945856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a 3-cell Brainfuck program can divide a counter that is known to be even by 2 in two cells, while keeping another counter around. A Minsky machine cannot divide a counter in place. < 1578319371 946616 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reference to a variable register isn't a problem... just make the tape position part of the MM state. < 1578319381 241643 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1578319383 271694 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1578319401 519802 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can have just two registers, adding another variable to the state makes it very cheaty < 1578319405 444423 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi hi hi < 1578319419 475657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the MM state a pair of program position (in the brainfuck program) and current tape position (0,1,2) < 1578319451 159637 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the runtime the state is constant? < 1578319452 642514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way a 3-cell Brainfuck program of length l becomes a MM with 3 registers and 3*l states. < 1578319460 572913 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1578319464 894331 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in 3 registers < 1578319466 714811 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want 2 < 1578319473 72803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that preserves complexity. < 1578319483 275837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I*'m interested in preserving complexity here. < 1578319483 814609 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity doesn't bother me < 1578319491 501626 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1578319508 72897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do the usual m to 2 counters reduction afterwards. < 1578319523 398790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :At an exponential cost in runtime. < 1578319544 247003 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1578319545 475004 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I do that < 1578319666 56675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You encode counters a,b,...,z as 2^a 3^b ... 101^z. You can do division with remainder using one more counter... so you can check whether any of the original registers is 0 (--> not divisible by the corresponding prime), and increment and decrement counters as well. < 1578319682 540026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(did you know that 101 is the 26th prime...) < 1578319707 987153 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, not < 1578319712 594461 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no < 1578319725 979592 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still don't understand it < 1578319782 462895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :increment b --> multiply the counter by 3. decrement b -> divide the counter by 3; if the remainder is 0, the decrement succeeds. Otherwise multiply by 3 and add the remainder back, and branch somewhere else. < 1578319833 577170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can keep track of the remainder in the finite state of the Minsky machine, and of the quotient in the other counter.) < 1578319860 367297 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1578319860 836034 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578319877 824756 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need modulus < 1578319889 865315 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is NO way to implement it on a 2 register MM < 1578319890 147218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I just called remainder. < 1578319898 954017 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578319900 577278 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do realise < 1578319904 61614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're wrong. < 1578319918 242533 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to do this < 1578319919 516296 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need many states. < 1578319929 289872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1578320052 77255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1124843/ < 1578320088 117497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's important that we only ever divide by known constants. < 1578320206 368012 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting > 1578320714 401055 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mister14 5* 10New user account > 1578320945 717918 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68699&oldid=68693 5* 03Mister14 5* (+245) 10/* Introductions */ < 1578322676 464731 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578322961 726506 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (^~,!)5 < 1578322962 421493 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: 3125 120 < 1578322966 531820 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578323183 735225 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578323186 559350 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1578323653 617686 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1578324653 200916 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to learn J again < 1578324744 488071 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm < 1578324748 318943 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never quite got the hooks and stuff last time < 1578324749 732457 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably read this one < 1578324829 301361 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cimport math; v = 5; print(v**v, math.factorial(v)) < 1578324830 209371 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :3125 120 < 1578324919 248592 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ha! < 1578324922 786565 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that J code above < 1578324938 660942 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not quite the tilde < 1578324986 610872 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ^~ 0 1 2 3 4 5 < 1578324987 219577 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: 1 1 4 27 256 3125 < 1578325009 352539 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^~ is a monad (in the J sense, not the Haskell sense) which computes x^x < 1578325044 637065 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< The symbol for division is % (percent). >> < 1578325045 734496 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gosh why < 1578325062 387688 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every single language uses slash for division < 1578325070 552352 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks closer to the apl Γ· < 1578325089 373188 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be a joke < 1578325099 976435 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why is - turned into a floor (_)? < 1578325110 701412 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :`/` is used instead for reduce (and other stuff) < 1578325111 529152 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/`? No such file or directory < 1578325121 462208 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :division should not get a precious single character symbol in any language, it's such a rare operation, it should just get named functions < 1578325123 437198 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestinb < 1578325194 589773 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: because `-` is a function that can also be monadic, in which case it negates the right argument < 1578325200 305739 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: - is used for subtraction and unary negation, but _ is used in a negative number literal < 1578325212 298364 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1578325214 916726 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ _2 < 1578325215 531634 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _2 < 1578325218 945653 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1578325223 942276 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :look into apl if you don't like j's symbols < 1578325224 682155 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a tiny bit of sense < 1578325241 198998 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean that it's monadsic < 1578325243 77020 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*monadic < 1578325243 573551 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { f x = 10 * x; } in fmap f (3, 6, -2) < 1578325246 229166 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1578325246 229219 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : β€’ No instance for (Functor ((,,) Integer Integer)) < 1578325246 268682 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of β€˜e_110362’ < 1578325246 699058 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary < 1578325249 295605 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { f x = 10 * x; } in fmap f (3, 6) < 1578325251 961542 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : (3,60) < 1578325256 929976 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ this is why < 1578325276 613622 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's also why standard ML uses a different character for unary negation, though their specific choice is objectionable < 1578325284 426201 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most languages only let you express positive number literals, and simply have you apply negation on a positive literal < 1578325294 90361 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1578325295 459158 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right < 1578325296 296743 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ -5 < 1578325296 977375 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: _5 < 1578325309 840921 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ -2 3 < 1578325310 316651 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * 2 3 < 1578325310 472590 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: _2 _3 < 1578325310 979492 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 1 1 < 1578325313 125371 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cprint([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2]) < 1578325313 981756 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ File "", line 1 \ print([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2]) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1578325314 711361 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ *: 2 3 < 1578325315 418417 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 4 9 < 1578325318 967928 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ _2 3 < 1578325319 691117 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: _2 3 < 1578325320 345359 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cprint([10 * x for x in [3, 6, -2]]) < 1578325321 234642 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[30, 60, -20] < 1578325325 520063 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it treats a single star like an empty variable? < 1578325326 278308 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1578325331 813484 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1578325334 742430 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(single -> without a colon) < 1578325336 670472 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, *: is square < 1578325340 779477 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm < 1578325357 935923 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what "treats like an empty variable" would mean here < 1578325368 425378 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also is a function < 1578325370 708542 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ha < 1578325375 100111 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it returns the sign < 1578325381 938039 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * _2 < 1578325382 651363 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 < 1578325384 744597 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * 2 < 1578325385 431211 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 1 < 1578325386 501841 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * - < 1578325387 229089 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: * - < 1578325395 734981 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578325401 5351 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see some obfuscation potential < 1578325407 422417 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (* -) 10 < 1578325408 185898 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: _100 < 1578325410 298113 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * 2j1 < 1578325411 68810 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: 0.894427j0.447214 < 1578325419 561619 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does j do < 1578325423 709363 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1578325425 703234 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : every single language uses slash for division => Haskell uses / for division but also % to construct rationals from integer, e. g. 2 % 3 for the number 2/3, and they are stringified accordingly, though you can also write (2 :: Rational) / 3 < 1578325428 600895 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1578325433 73171 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its imaginary/complex < 1578325433 632548 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: a complex number literal < 1578325443 681484 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (2 :: Rational) / 3 < 1578325445 983331 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 % 3 < 1578325467 436763 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an idiot when it comes to FP, I didn't use any FP language really < 1578325487 219141 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I spent a fair amount of time on low level programming < 1578325492 256060 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn’t change that J is a write-only esolang < 1578325494 501392 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cprint(2+1j) < 1578325495 333041 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(2+1j) < 1578325496 312921 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to learn FP but it seems too weird < 1578325499 466019 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does 'low level' mean in this context? < 1578325501 93101 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cprint(abs(2+1j)) < 1578325502 797837 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.23606797749979 < 1578325507 534940 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1578325512 489052 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I've been writing kernels < 1578325513 738400 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I want the sign < 1578325534 200659 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to write a simple java powered kernel lately < 1578325559 408492 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based around stupid implementation of SE 1.5 < 1578325559 824238 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this doesn’t change that J is a write-only esolang" apl OTOH isn't write-only, because the glyphs are easier to read < 1578325571 358467 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hard to write < 1578325572 94020 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it' < 1578325574 157520 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s read only < 1578325594 459893 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, get an apl keybaord layout and it becomes easy to write < 1578325598 101361 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cv = 2+1j; print(v / abs(v)) < 1578325598 957051 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(0.8944271909999159+0.4472135954999579j) < 1578325611 884499 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: equational FP languages (like Haskell or my F-turned thing) are more readable than J, I assure you < 1578325618 634119 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't they use I instead of J to signify irrational unit? < 1578325627 384524 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : s read only => rofl :D < 1578325651 514890 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1578325661 332502 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to get a taste of Elixir but currently it's 0-1 for me < 1578325710 215692 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :going so hard after the state seems peculiar to me < 1578325732 568451 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about lisp < 1578325749 968311 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll talk about lisp-likes: Used them, liked them < 1578325765 259101 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cv = complex(2,1); s = v / abs(v); print("%f+%fI" % (s.real, s.imag)) # kspalaiologos: there, it uses I < 1578325766 173598 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.894427+0.447214I < 1578325793 344910 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my constrained mind seems to take lisp easier than languages camouflaging to be something really useful < 1578325824 815884 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any lisp? < 1578325834 708653 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your lisp may vary :D < 1578325842 398841 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CL for me please < 1578325869 702960 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bet Clojure, Racket, Scheme and CL have a ton of differences between each other < 1578325894 941446 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, CL is secretly an imperative language if that tag is still useful < 1578325896 777225 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :JVM garbage < 1578325905 652442 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I’ve seen < 1578325906 162357 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the difference in some cases < 1578325919 673772 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just an ordinary procedural programming fan < 1578325941 806563 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :willing to run a startup using Algol 68 < 1578326052 774060 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: how about using fortran 2019? < 1578326084 731519 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen Cobol on Wheelchair (or Cogs)? < 1578326109 992416 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric : /* it was Wheelchair: https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair */ < 1578326129 800655 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actively developed (since I looked at it last time) < 1578326139 568380 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1578326166 821262 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(c) " love it < 1578326173 497789 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I often like a clean piece of imperative code < 1578326212 688899 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :look on this clean piece of imperative code: https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/blob/master/bfasm.c < 1578326233 819885 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is C! < 1578326243 341408 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's beautiful nonetheless < 1578326256 453711 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact < 1578326259 112824 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very imperative < 1578326265 933952 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the piece is too long and is for an orchestra I think < 1578326285 605069 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only state is global < 1578326296 283748 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's 2000 element int array < 1578326309 473838 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gosh, 2k10 me was a stupid person < 1578326313 105622 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :risky, risky < 1578326314 550316 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't I rewrite it sooner < 1578326324 483651 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't I rewrite it to this day < 1578326344 774238 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often think that about myself too < 1578326350 494353 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone does < 1578326380 861498 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my very old code has assignments with no space before the equals sign, only after. it's horrible. < 1578326401 150323 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen code that has spaces before and after every paren < 1578326402 399064 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :going like < 1578326416 446562 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while ( ( c = getchar () ) != EOF ) < 1578326420 91169 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1578326427 245607 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, that doesn't have space before and after every paren < 1578326441 988136 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :() < 1578326455 613989 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I thought that the language should have a rational implicit conversion for any occasion, between any two types, and a special syntax (instead of plain method/function names) for most operations on standard types < 1578326458 417851 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't copy it, because the code is long lost < 1578326477 366185 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, my old code has space between the function name and the call parenthesis too. also horrible < 1578326497 785836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree < 1578326511 266545 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost never wrote like that at least < 1578326554 522357 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe because I almost started with VB6 where the IDE formats your line as you leave it < 1578326554 562465 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://prntscr.com/qk1xun < 1578326566 420432 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is horrible too < 1578326573 141201 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taken out of NT kernel's inet driver < 1578326576 990790 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original form < 1578326634 354521 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :return( Err ); < 1578326636 978389 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brackets around return < 1578326642 612506 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the final boss of garbage code < 1578326860 952760 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 5 * 4 + 3 < 1578326861 643259 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 35 < 1578326879 76076 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the expressions evaluated right to left, really? < 1578326885 923466 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without caring about operator precendence? < 1578326900 166316 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578326932 653492 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the operator precedence is "all verbs are equal precedence", and verb evaluation is right to left, yes < 1578326961 966875 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iverson explained quite clearly why in one of his old papers on APL, I think it was in notation as a tool for thought < 1578326978 268809 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm < 1578327019 731290 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, APL was developed as an alternate maths notation originally, designed to be more consistent than the conventional notation < 1578327037 827140 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also amongst other things introduced the notation for floor and ceiling that we use today < 1578327085 127004 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1578327098 248291 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578327146 394275 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A function taking a single argument on the right is called a monadic function, or a monad for short. " < 1578327158 593083 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so monad is just an unary function? < 1578327186 607550 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the real meaning of this buzzword which definition feels like reading Malbolge? < 1578327236 921426 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 4 < 1578327237 676557 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 0.25 < 1578327240 332328 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is cool though < 1578327249 995194 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: no, Haskell monads are the other sort :) < 1578327269 18600 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so monad's definition varies by language? < 1578327286 440976 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: compare "variadic", or the use of "monad", "dyad" in music < 1578327291 399412 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definitive definition is whatever's in our wisdom, of course. < 1578327292 961360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monad < 1578327293 279578 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, it refers to the number of arguments) < 1578327294 234043 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. < 1578327296 901362 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endofunctor < 1578327298 265186 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories. < 1578327300 525625 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arity#Terminology < 1578327302 195925 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endomorphism < 1578327305 17014 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endomorphisms are just final morphisms. < 1578327308 673352 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? morphism < 1578327309 989746 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1. < 1578327313 370945 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, so useful. < 1578327321 582163 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? final < 1578327323 317083 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"final" is an annotation in Java; it means the marked code will not be changed anymore and is a final version. < 1578327340 146939 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to pick words quite carefully to stay in the same domain of things. < 1578327342 317361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? category < 1578327343 653099 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes. < 1578327356 910421 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? class < 1578327358 439029 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :class? Β―\(°​_o)/Β― < 1578327375 106215 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of J's terminology is borrowed from linguistics, I'm not sure if the use of monadic/dyadic (which also existed back in APL) are derived from the musical terms.. < 1578327378 641936 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so monad's definition varies by language? => I think these times β€œmonadic” is far more often about category theory monads, not arity-one functions < 1578327386 132223 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. < < 1578327388 105139 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:25: error: parse error on input β€˜in’ < 1578327391 534858 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats like the wikipedia article looked like < 1578327395 469010 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear it was this < 1578327397 393357 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kittegory < 1578327398 713265 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A kittegory is just a small category. < 1578327399 606730 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sometimes "monadic" just means "1-adic" < 1578327408 870447 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arity 1 < 1578327414 123957 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it also has a meaning in philosophy < 1578327422 550751 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :from kant i think < 1578327439 477500 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1. => rofl < 1578327440 184455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Classes were a concept in pre-anonymous internet that have since been replaced by finely meshed masks. ) < 1578327495 248038 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : from kant i think => wasn’t it Leibnitz? < 1578327511 11881 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though they could be both making their own monads < 1578327522 732161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many monads < 1578327539 324808 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ * + 4 3 2 < 1578327540 62360 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 1 1 1 < 1578327552 958331 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ + / 2 3 4 < 1578327553 651115 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 9 < 1578327558 189308 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1578327558 753081 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1578327568 180916 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1578327569 963181 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What were you expecting? < 1578327584 48962 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just switched operators < 1578327586 149905 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :in +/ 2 3 4 you have the adverb / modifying the verb + to produce "sum" < 1578327590 177691 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the same mathematical operation < 1578327593 196754 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :op / x y z is equalivalent to x op y op z < 1578327596 477886 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I thought / is division < 1578327607 216790 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't switch my mind to % < 1578327618 740248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 0 0 < 1578327619 384151 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: _ _ < 1578327624 859687 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 0 1 < 1578327625 568984 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: _ 1 < 1578327627 964957 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578327629 963585 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 1 0 < 1578327630 706897 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: 1 _ < 1578327632 587479 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1578327638 214253 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 1 1 < 1578327638 850973 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 1 1 < 1578327643 258282 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t comprehend < 1578327644 14738 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1578327647 587354 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to place it like < 1578327650 745360 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0 % 0 < 1578327651 456551 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 0 < 1578327655 121209 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1578327660 329933 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: unary % is reciprocal, so you're taking reciprocal of 0 or 1 < 1578327664 262927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, 0 / 0 = 0?.. < 1578327668 897764 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578327670 290068 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's logical < 1578327682 253082 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just as true as any other answer you can give < 1578327687 141224 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cries in horror < 1578327695 328718 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pats arseniiv < 1578327702 976633 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A ha < 1578327704 70488 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait I thought about 0^0 maybe < 1578327706 726204 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1578327710 498401 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ is Infinity < 1578327714 110848 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :] 0 ^ 0 < 1578327716 331657 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 2 ^ 3 < 1578327717 66411 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: 8 < 1578327724 186885 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0 ^ 0 < 1578327724 906111 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: 1 < 1578327729 27228 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1578327729 749030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: a/0 is a sane choice *if* you have to make / total. < 1578327731 258627 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was ^ for < 1578327739 917182 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :expotential < 1578327741 270172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: a/0 = 0 I mean. < 1578327743 108300 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, power < 1578327745 690711 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ^ == *:? < 1578327749 566790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :0^0 is 1 of course. < 1578327750 148858 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, *: is square < 1578327754 1267 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1578327756 439598 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :*: is the same as ^&2 < 1578327759 846761 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose < 1578327761 322333 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for reals < 1578327777 482040 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 => phew [I was trying to remember how’s that word written] < 1578327826 569187 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric : / means reduce? < 1578327834 836355 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: maybe, but why not 1 for example. / is related to multiplication, 1 is too. 0 is less related < 1578327851 696368 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: pretty much < 1578327907 931943 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should continue working on EsoOS < 1578327914 294894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Picking 0 makes (a+b)/c = a/c + b/c and (ab)/c = a(b/c) true unconditionally. So... the choice is pragmatic. < 1578327914 674613 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and feature J as one of languages available there < 1578327957 760756 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does NB. denote a comment < 1578327966 314893 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the acronym behind it < 1578327971 389344 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :nota bene < 1578327975 590587 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1578327976 249817 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is it because 0 is absorbing with regard to Γ— just like ∞ < 1578327984 983778 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been a sort of comment marker for 300 years < 1578327994 990214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: People do not agree on this universally, of course. (There are some vocal people who think that x/0 should be left as unspecified as possible... it has a value, but you don't know what it is. But then you'll still have theorems like x/0 - x/0 = 0 that will annoy the purists that you were trying to please...) < 1578328014 779936 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, yeah < 1578328016 662656 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right < 1578328020 713431 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to learn a tiny bit of Latin < 1578328033 248380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: So given the choice between not satisfying the purists, and a little more convenience in proving things, I'd pick convenience every time out of 10 :) < 1578328033 377184 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to imagine 0 in context of nonnegative integers or rationals as 2^∞ 3^∞ 5^∞ 7^∞ … < 1578328068 148350 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ >. 1 < 1578328068 820975 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 1 < 1578328068 988525 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 2 (*+*) 3 < 1578328069 758238 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: 12 < 1578328073 326094 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ >. 21.37 < 1578328074 73609 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 22 < 1578328079 922350 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ +\ < 1578328080 666173 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: +\ < 1578328081 684876 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ + < 1578328082 417048 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: + < 1578328093 977836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: But then you'll still have theorems like x/0 - x/0 = 0 that will annoy the purists that you were trying to please... => yeah, I’ll be annoyed for sure < 1578328103 69589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Of course, in the end you still get plenty of theorems that divide by some d and require that d != 0. < 1578328105 638622 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was a great opportunity to make some brainfuck code < 1578328112 329856 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ∞ < 1578328113 77371 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: |spelling error < 1578328113 84866 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: | ∞ < 1578328113 84914 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: | ^ < 1578328113 287407 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ >. < 1578328114 22629 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: >. < 1578328122 483598 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't 1 be assumed here? < 1578328125 652805 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it is with %? < 1578328127 875125 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ % 10 < 1578328128 652898 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 0.1 < 1578328147 567071 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean < 1578328165 889002 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary % is reciprocal, but in general the unary and binary case of a verb doesn't have to be related < 1578328173 782076 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578328178 881215 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary >. is ceiling, binary >. is maximum I believe < 1578328182 510091 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so there is actually a monad < 1578328189 89586 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for % < 1578328192 444920 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1578328193 873315 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1578328198 199896 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all in the vocabulary < 1578328202 390640 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear webpage of manufacturer, if I want to download the manual for your device, I'd like to tell you which device it is first and then choose from the languages in which a manual is available, rather than choose a language first then search for devices with a manual in that language. thank yuo. < 1578328207 146812 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm is quite handy < 1578328209 509627 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw one great thing about lisps is that their + βˆ’ Γ— / are often variadic < 1578328223 225696 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1578328241 123429 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you'd need to reduce < 1578328246 556838 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a great deal but saves time < 1578328272 172028 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though now I seem to think (βˆ’ 1 2 3) should be treated as (1 + 2) βˆ’ 3 as we drop a left operand when writing (βˆ’ 2) < 1578328320 829654 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That gives _1 _2 _3, right? < 1578328362 245398 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ - 1 2 3 < 1578328362 943243 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 < 1578328365 379460 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye < 1578328373 659741 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1578328375 955415 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ + - 1 2 3 < 1578328376 711690 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 < 1578328387 432893 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does in J. In Lisp I don't know < 1578328391 968332 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ - \ 1 2 3 < 1578328392 730573 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 0 0 < 1578328392 730603 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0 < 1578328392 730612 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 < 1578328396 285677 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1578328397 125057 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1578328402 767260 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did it print out 3 messages < 1578328404 279995 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ is not / < 1578328408 985909 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you produced a 3x3 array < 1578328409 555200 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1578328414 108364 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1578328420 892598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is jarring :P < 1578328434 828718 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :APL is aplarring? < 1578328443 702996 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(making jars) < 1578328453 569040 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a handy tool, and moreso I think it's handy to reason about programs in array-programming terms in my head sometimes < 1578328456 546360 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second < 1578328458 216650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what would alparring then mean < 1578328462 676660 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this bot have some kind of protection < 1578328465 542420 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :another tool in the toolbox for reasoning about problems < 1578328467 72683 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't spam out the chat? < 1578328469 96453 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parring with aluminium? < 1578328485 425333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ - - - - 1 2 3 < 1578328486 152238 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: 1 2 3 < 1578328491 122771 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whyy < 1578328501 49119 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ \ \ \ 1 2 3 < 1578328501 778685 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: |syntax error < 1578328501 778722 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: | \\\1 2 3 < 1578328511 262589 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it’s quite protected < 1578328512 272492 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: not entirely sure; I'd appreciate if you wouldn't try to get it to quit due to flooding < 1578328527 33191 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just check with 6 elements < 1578328529 551063 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay I won’t too < 1578328530 921427 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it prints out then it's flawed < 1578328538 743526 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's limited to three lines at a time < 1578328545 577383 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ - \ 1 2 4 < 1578328546 322479 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 0 0 < 1578328546 329965 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0 < 1578328546 330004 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _4 < 1578328547 405071 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in principle that means you could spam lines and have it be amplified 1:3 < 1578328548 479026 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ - \ 1 2 3 4 < 1578328549 212123 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 0 0 0 < 1578328549 220052 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 0 0 < 1578328549 220081 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 0 < 1578328549 220089 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: _1 _2 _3 _4 < 1578328552 848298 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1578328553 465861 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok maybe not 3 < 1578328555 8880 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some limit :P < 1578328561 371934 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it on pm < 1578328561 532736 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ i.10 10 < 1578328562 265608 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 < 1578328562 265639 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 < 1578328562 265647 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 < 1578328562 265655 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 < 1578328562 265662 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 < 1578328562 520025 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 < 1578328562 520067 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 < 1578328563 455642 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 < 1578328563 455673 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: ... < 1578328563 667852 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :will it kick the bot? < 1578328567 221589 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that's the limit < 1578328580 871051 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's i. < 1578328594 651013 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs < 1578328597 925236 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1578328599 33680 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's seq < 1578328604 142178 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like < 1578328604 770170 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse < 1578328605 677071 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be easiest if you reference the vocabulary for looking up verbs < 1578328615 261165 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578328616 469271 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: i. is ΞΉ :D < 1578328619 994139 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I make it enumerate alphabet? < 1578328623 830660 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something else? < 1578328642 35109 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well not per se < 1578328648 225150 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't really many operators here < 1578328670 495730 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bet I have seen `atoi` in some language, related to ΞΉ but don’t remember in what a way < 1578328685 320482 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but using this language already feels like driving a truck on thin ice < 1578328687 542652 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just "string to integer" < 1578328693 53145 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep it is < 1578328693 569489 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: how so? < 1578328706 362081 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems illogical to me a bit < 1578328711 576829 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably because I'm not used to APL < 1578328728 137187 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is barely anyone using APL these days? < 1578328760 685638 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure, I'm told it's still used a bit in financial stuffs < 1578328764 907716 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with k < 1578328788 196926 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't Phantom_Hoover get a job working with K? < 1578328789 653400 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :K is crazy too < 1578328810 578429 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2_&{&/x!/:2_!x}'!R < 1578328833 278292 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, < K is the foundation for a family of financial products > -> you're right < 1578328875 308574 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that K is kind of the theoretically beautiful, minimalistic language in the family.. although it's also fairly different from APL and J in terms of how its arrays work < 1578328890 991569 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, it's more oriented around nested lists (a la lisps) than APL-style rectangular arrays < 1578328900 944899 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is much more "batteries included" < 1578328947 162057 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ average=:+/ % < 1578328947 782131 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: |ok < 1578328957 347032 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ average 4 5 < 1578328958 38581 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 4.25 4.2 < 1578328958 38608 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: 5.25 5.2 < 1578328968 751519 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have I done < 1578329046 672487 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks < 1578329049 678308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :beating the averages < 1578329084 889951 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :created a hook that uh.. creates a table of the original input and the reciprocal? < 1578329086 635869 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1578329093 354886 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you meant +/ % # < 1578329100 971039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1578329101 106934 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a fork that divides the sum by the length) < 1578329115 198549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [1/a + b | a <- [4,5], b <- [4,5]] < 1578329118 530673 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [4.25,5.25,4.2,5.2] < 1578329127 754701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wrong order, right numbers) < 1578329129 680541 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (;/ %) 1 2 3 < 1578329130 341447 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”¬β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β” < 1578329130 348879 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β”‚1 2 3β”‚1 0.5 0.333333β”‚ < 1578329130 348904 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”΄β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ < 1578329136 241849 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, not a great example < 1578329146 684800 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you make that fancy table < 1578329147 743117 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1578329166 799448 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used ; link, which boxes its left and right arguments before concatenating < 1578329173 478956 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1578329173 519262 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ <'hello' NB. we have boxes < 1578329174 332255 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β” < 1578329174 332281 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β”‚helloβ”‚ < 1578329174 332289 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ < 1578329186 286631 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :cats love J < 1578329186 692965 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this box seems a tiny bit off < 1578329188 391924 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it < 1578329188 591233 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1578329197 128893 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ <<'hello' < 1578329197 801708 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β” < 1578329197 801746 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: β”‚β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”β”‚ < 1578329197 801760 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: β”‚β”‚helloβ”‚β”‚ < 1578329197 801780 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: β”‚β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜β”‚ < 1578329197 801791 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ < 1578329200 341740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1578329206 631778 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what did you expect? < 1578329212 960620 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1578329218 139153 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats actually very interesting < 1578329222 780352 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ <<<"bruh" < 1578329223 505428 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: (< < <"_ _ _)" < 1578329227 287711 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1578329229 301732 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ <<<'bruh' < 1578329230 15864 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β” < 1578329230 15895 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”‚β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”β”‚ < 1578329230 15902 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”‚β”‚β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”β”‚β”‚ < 1578329230 15909 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”‚β”‚β”‚bruhβ”‚β”‚β”‚ < 1578329230 15916 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”‚β”‚β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜β”‚β”‚ < 1578329230 501988 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β”‚β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜β”‚ < 1578329230 502021 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: β””β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ < 1578329235 980444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It did what I expected. But it's potentially very noisy. < 1578329253 236997 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think that's true of a lot of things involving J < 1578329255 206451 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I wonder if the default output ought to be changed to the more consise way < 1578329262 329593 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the foreign for it.. < 1578329272 252817 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1578329280 667692 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it could use double-lined boxes < 1578329290 638945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: "concise" if you're wondering about the spelling < 1578329308 610292 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1578329312 969787 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1578329315 76380 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is it < 1578329323 585504 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :french? < 1578329327 665370 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :engl-ish < 1578329343 764725 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: "let's see" < 1578329348 185127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: imagine a silent 't' after the first 'e' < 1578329357 970255 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1578329362 976954 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1578329366 268279 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misunderstood the context < 1578329378 203275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(engl-ish is a contraction of english-ish, of course) < 1578329394 868358 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1578329395 149357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ish < 1578329396 345045 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :ish? Β―\(°​_o)/Β― < 1578329402 818110 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? engl-ish < 1578329404 806447 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? english-ish < 1578329412 551958 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1578329418 484307 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? test < 1578329422 67713 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (9!:2)'' < 1578329422 260458 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :engl-ish? Β―\(°​_o)/Β― < 1578329422 750148 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: 5 < 1578329423 479664 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what just happened < 1578329424 437544 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :english-ish? Β―\(°​_o)/Β― < 1578329430 1371 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available. < 1578329431 929231 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, a great lag < 1578329515 527665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/ish has the right definition. < 1578329522 257967 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or right-ish?) < 1578329522 629428 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is it possible to make a sleep in J? < 1578329531 213684 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is "ish" a monad (in the Haskell sense) < 1578329540 110768 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something is red, it's red-ish < 1578329547 959652 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something is red-ish-ish, it's red-ish < 1578329556 945502 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t think the latter is true? < 1578329569 500408 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true-ish ;) < 1578329576 412731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( What color is horse red-ish? ) < 1578329585 796005 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe then it’s monad-ish < 1578329662 532873 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578329860 508715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1578329913 121671 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: reminds me about a partially obtuse riddle mentioning a horse too, which has an usual translation β€œwhen one buys a horse, what (=in which state) it is?” and an intended translation like β€œwhen one have a horse washed” instead of the first, and the answer is then β€œit is wet” < 1578330049 692144 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s weird even originally < 1578330074 559144 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had seen it only in a book, not in vivo at all < 1578330089 196984 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite unmemetic < 1578330107 308540 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( weird things are far more common than the word's meaning suggests ) < 1578330161 938606 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://kspalaiologos.baselinux.net/doc/happy20.wav or http://kspalaiologos.baselinux.net/doc/unreleased.wav < 1578330163 903715 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is better < 1578330190 225444 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one about horses from a book: β€œdo horses go to a ball” with an intended reparse β€œdo [somebody plural] walk on the balcony” < 1578330236 697112 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one even features quite unnatural world permutation to work < 1578330255 495254 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning, that permutation is rare even in convoluted poetry < 1578330258 45547 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 2nd one got cut a bit < 1578330337 830192 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: both yours? < 1578330351 294898 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm planning to put them somewhere < 1578330391 653592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: it they are tracked, maybe modarchive or what it’s called < 1578330397 827518 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1578330398 901494 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not there < 1578330400 464481 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or e. g. Soundcloud < 1578330405 439210 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not an artist < 1578330428 209954 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are indeed tracked < 1578330451 938134 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I used the first one < 1578330480 338584 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which one is better? < 1578330485 885076 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m not able to review in meaningful way but both look pretty solid and fun < 1578330489 777402 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's pretend 2nd didn't get cut < 1578330555 715280 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there were a few songs from modarchive I liked < 1578330561 53774 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the first is longer, there is more material to judge on… hm. I can’t say I wouldn’t pick the first < 1578330563 394827 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially 2pi radix or 486 < 1578330571 290671 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the second is good too < 1578330605 893339 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I used in my game a couple of months ago a song named "blinded monarch" from modarchive < 1578330609 62382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I myself don’t go to modarchive but I know about it via OpenMPT forum) < 1578330609 254820 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the artist though < 1578330627 684162 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 assembly + SDL1.2 is dope though < 1578330654 699035 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=170225 < 1578330656 764750 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there it is < 1578330723 82816 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the alternate beat in the second at 0:30 < 1578330789 256698 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2nd one will be looped so it's quite short and the alternate beat was very important because it would feel terribly if the same part was looped over and over < 1578330970 81003 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree > 1578330984 964579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hex9614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68700&oldid=68698 5* 03Hex96 5* (+82) 10/* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */ > 1578330997 731827 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hex9614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68701&oldid=68700 5* 03Hex96 5* (+1) 10/* Getting one of my languages on the random language button */ < 1578331000 515422 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another very entertaining to watch trend? < 1578331020 100476 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :random button on the wiki is very disappointing < 1578331029 784748 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most cases I land either on trivial brainfuck derivative < 1578331035 76532 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a joke language < 1578331148 737512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578331188 249474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps constant-output languages should be split out of [[Category:Languages]] in order to discourage random spamming of trivially simple language ideas in order to discouarge attempts to bias the random-language functionality? < 1578331208 341746 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+1 from me < 1578331212 778543 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: yeah, unfortunate :( < 1578331218 95111 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, we really can merge all the brainfuck substitutions < 1578331221 155403 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :into one article < 1578331226 382104 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: looks interesting < 1578331255 461886 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe enhanced random page button ? < 1578331259 495352 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if its doable) < 1578331269 87199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I've been meaning to do for a while but never got around to was to write a metalanguage that generated BF-equivalents (and maybe some almost-equivalents) < 1578331269 859555 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lets to filter out / in categories < 1578331280 197775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the purpose of being able to merge them all into a single page < 1578331575 397422 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't someone run a perl script < 1578331578 148895 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the server < 1578331601 318212 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to merge all pages containing the [[:Category:Trivial Brainfuck Substitution]] (or something along these lines) < 1578331616 298374 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be done even using shell script < 1578331635 777979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MediaWiki's DB organisation is kind-of fragile, it's certainly possible to do that but I wouldn't be at all confident the script was touching every table it needed to in the correct way < 1578331658 621357 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe use selenium? < 1578331663 141431 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to automate the browser < 1578331687 368542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw I'd be much more confident doing something like that client-side via a tool like AWB < 1578331708 188372 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats awb < 1578331723 871091 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k AutoWikiBrowser < 1578331795 254552 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Approved_users < 1578331797 118301 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an idiotism < 1578331810 857195 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a power user will just nop out the statements used for the check < 1578331817 416380 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's open source its even easier < 1578331872 180740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: it's pretty good at keeping out script kiddies < 1578331886 724946 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which way? < 1578331894 208465 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no source < 1578331897 863370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't even know how to override the check < 1578331900 714748 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's easy < 1578331908 659770 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use dotPeek < 1578331927 750945 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a proxy < 1578331947 967314 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will add my username to the wiki page, there must be a programmable tool for that < 1578331951 812880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the list is enforced two ways: both by the tool itself, and by Wikipedia administrators who can block accounts that are using automated editing illegally < 1578331969 776628 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :block is delayed < 1578331975 308098 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever wants to do it will do it < 1578331978 972717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty hard to bypass the check in the tool unknowingly < 1578331993 142531 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like a cool thing to do this afternoon < 1578332008 536566 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously I won't "test it" < 1578332026 145383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so using the tool contrary to the checkpage check is pretty strong evidence that someone is intentionally trying to violate policy < 1578332055 877710 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :protection on the clientside is useless < 1578332095 191496 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other approach should be taken < 1578332099 689277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, on Wikipedia anything can be reverted < 1578332107 636920 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ratelimits, have they heard of it < 1578332111 76556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone having bypassed a clientside check is good evidence that it /should/ be reverted < 1578332126 934120 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly but reverting in batch can be sometimes bad < 1578332143 699049 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the user mixed good and bad contributions? maybe someone already touched the page since "change"? < 1578332146 904450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's why it's a good idea to have a system that lets you know whether reverting in batch is likely to be helpful < 1578332146 998076 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add ratelimits < 1578332160 414847 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ratelimits on edits, no more than a page per minute < 1578332161 962868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm pretty sure there are systems that check to see if an account is editing too fast < 1578332171 817108 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have to check the list < 1578332174 191863 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1578332176 400827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one of the things the "bot flag" on an account is for, it disables the rate limits < 1578332182 775193 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the clientside protection is useless < 1578332185 725999 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the backend will take care < 1578332197 695055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that has to be set manually and there's vetting of the user/bot first < 1578332215 991846 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :manually? < 1578332230 328374 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just get an automated system that trashes account of an user that makes more than two edits a second constantly < 1578332258 5363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: no, I mean permission to bypass rate limits has to be given manually < 1578332268 866111 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the entry on checklist < 1578332281 214732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rate limits themselves are probably automatic, although I don't think I have perms to check atm < 1578332291 802749 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a wikipedia admin? < 1578332294 736536 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1578332323 349646 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :c'mon man < 1578332327 495097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not right now, I was at one time though (I resigned due to lack of activity) < 1578332329 593856 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they havent even obfuscated the assembly < 1578332377 730849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the abuse filter configuration is stored in a non-public database; however, there is a public page listing a subset of it, but it's unclear whether rate limits would be in the public or the private subset < 1578332403 278789 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't dug through mediawiki < 1578332418 235539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the source code for this would be pointless because it's a configuration setting, not hardcoded < 1578332529 85440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I checked the public part of the configuration: it states that a rate limit exists; however, the exact numbers are not public < 1578332566 41146 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< This user doesn't have enough privileges to make automatic edits on this wiki. >> < 1578332577 149081 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a check and the messagebox below < 1578332869 935728 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just said the client-side protection is useless, now you're complaining about them not spending enough effort on it. < 1578332979 164238 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you see < 1578332986 862067 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when someone makes clientside protection < 1578332990 778869 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they either resign before making it < 1578332994 729777 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or make it hard to overcome < 1578333010 205315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or duplicate it on the server side < 1578333013 178075 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no inbetweeners, because it has no sense to implement weak protection < 1578333052 233520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :client-side validation that's duplicated on the server-side is pretty helpful because it saves the server time dealing with known bad values, and saves the user time too because the client-side check is faster when using a slow Internet connection < 1578333062 493640 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1578333066 51682 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a clientside check < 1578333070 138354 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they first connect to the wiki < 1578333074 968660 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :download allowed nicks list < 1578333086 931038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking in general here, rather than about AWB in particular < 1578333087 104557 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they check whether the client can proceed or not < 1578333099 121774 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well AWB uses inet connection for a clientside check < 1578333103 669200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in AWB, the server-side duplication is a little less accurate because it isn't always 100% obvious whether someone's using AWB or not < 1578333103 909506 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your argument is invalid < 1578333125 421022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the reason why the client-side check helps there < 1578333149 606773 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not effective < 1578333163 874782 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a shame if (*cough*) someone, released an unlocked version. < 1578333169 296519 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it doesn't work < 1578333193 744889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people bypassing the check basically just costs the Wikipedia administrators time in cleaning the issue up, it doesn't do lasting damage < 1578333209 793490 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't cost anything < 1578333220 354822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so having an imperfect check is a good time-saving device, compared to having no client-side check < 1578333226 634368 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ratelimits were optimally implemented < 1578333257 542153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are rate limits, but manual edits can go pretty quickly sometimes < 1578333265 118074 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how quickly? < 1578333269 716144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I managed something like 8/minute manually cleaning up spam < 1578333290 721394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the rate limits, despite not being public, are likely set to something comparable to that < 1578333292 272298 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you think that automatic tool will edit at 8 edits a minute? < 1578333297 651499 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll go like crazy < 1578333311 701673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can go much faster in full-auto mode, but that would be noticed < 1578333315 271078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and blocked very quickly < 1578333325 45439 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's a point < 1578333346 612510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :30-60/minute is common for full-auto bots, with maxlag compensation < 1578333373 498109 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways I think clientside check is nonsense < 1578333390 633099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think it would be better to not have the check? < 1578333393 312945 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friend used to put anti-scriptkiddie check in his CS1.7 (or whatever it was called) bot < 1578333396 845313 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about irc rate limiting and jeval's rate limiter? I can tell you about these < 1578333406 166920 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikimedia < 1578333411 895892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a statement along the lines of "locks are to keep out honest users", this will prevent anyone honest using it without getting authorisation < 1578333421 588916 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, strengthten the check to make it more effective < 1578333426 169042 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR get rid of it completely < 1578333430 72881 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wiki edits? < 1578333436 667536 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just think of power users < 1578333442 776213 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a script kiddie can download a macro program < 1578333445 605341 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will record mouseclocks < 1578333448 154632 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mouseclicks < 1578333449 743957 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and keystrokes < 1578333450 560796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to bypass by someone who wants to be an issue, but those people are rare, and the existence of the check makes it clear that such people are being intentionally unconstructive when they get caught (which normally happens quickly) < 1578333487 156700 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll have to read this scrollback later, gtg now < 1578333498 848779 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1578333505 69080 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been administrating a large site < 1578333505 684339 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1578333527 139028 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I believe I'd get that sorted out in a better way it is right now < 1578333531 473516 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1578333537 338278 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's not terrible, it's just meh < 1578334237 668023 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578334423 509545 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1578334446 892501 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1578334478 569553 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2g < 1578334488 939520 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1578335274 675465 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Comp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68702&oldid=68668 5* 03Hex96 5* (+75) 10/* commands */ < 1578335390 796595 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1578336352 414136 :Frater_EST!adrianbibl@172.242.0.73 JOIN :#esoteric > 1578337116 422097 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68703&oldid=68619 5* 03Hex96 5* (+46) 10 > 1578337237 588750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68704&oldid=68703 5* 03Hex96 5* (-2) 10/* Examples */ > 1578337401 337535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68705&oldid=68704 5* 03Hex96 5* (+83) 10/* Examples */ < 1578337463 771193 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1578337539 391566 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68706&oldid=68705 5* 03Hex96 5* (+54) 10 > 1578337558 955029 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68707&oldid=68706 5* 03Hex96 5* (+1) 10 > 1578337879 719913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Langlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68708&oldid=68707 5* 03Hex96 5* (+55) 10/* calculator */ < 1578338056 225172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1578338280 304823 :Frater_EST!adrianbibl@172.242.0.73 PART :#esoteric > 1578338748 854931 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68709&oldid=68389 5* 03Hex96 5* (+92) 10 > 1578338773 113830 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68710&oldid=68709 5* 03Hex96 5* (+2) 10 < 1578339541 733619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1578340714 571789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: for merging brainfuck equivalents, note that Ook! has some historical significance so I'd prefer it to have its own page < 1578340786 759515 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos, ais523: the esolangs.org wiki has the api.php interface enabled, at https://esolangs.org/w/api.php , documented at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page , < 1578340805 882243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the interface that I recommend if you want to make automated changes to lots of pages, or other complex automation < 1578340844 513006 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the only API, eg. there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Export , but it's a very general one, and usually it's the most convenient one for automation > 1578340934 656637 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68711&oldid=68689 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (-196) 10Improving indentation < 1578340966 113190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: yes, of course there are rate limits on the server. why would you think there aren't? the interface even tells you what rate it wants you to edit stuff, because sometimes the Mediawiki servers are overloaded, in which case they ask bots to edit slower < 1578340992 730001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the client side does is to just read those rate limits in the replies and wait for the appropriate time < 1578341037 166234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" that's one of the things the "bot flag" on an account is for, it disables the rate limits" => no, not really. the bot flag is more for marking bots that are trusted so that people patrolling RecentChanges or other lists of changes can easily ignore bot edits < 1578341313 245734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of the client-side rate limits is that they can submit your write request slowly enough that the server doesn't ban you for editing more quickly. those client-side rate limits are what let you spam the server. if you remove them, you'll just get your request refused by the server in a busy loop. < 1578341782 167479 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's the interface that I recommend if you want to make automated changes to lots of pages, or other complex automation => this is great! (possibly; didn’t read what it allows) < 1578341821 256508 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good that MediaWiki folks had thought about that < 1578341851 682015 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just try not to get carried away. < 1578341883 901392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll be the one who has to restore from backup if you do.) < 1578341916 617832 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, anything that *requires* "complex automation" is probably sufficiently drastic to have a talk page discussion for a few months before implementing. < 1578341943 730295 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Few months of esolangs.org time is probably equivalent of few days of Wikipedia time, relatively speaking.) < 1578342134 704435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no it's not. en.wikipedia has hundreds of edits per minute, and even the smaller wikipedias have a lot of edits. the esolangs wiki has had less than 100000 edits total. < 1578342150 372637 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't scale that way. < 1578342166 242197 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a logarithm of edit speed or something. < 1578342202 961364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, it's generally a good api. not perfect, but good. < 1578342242 78162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it lags a little behind the other latest developments of mediawiki and its extensions, so there can be extension functions that work but not yet accessible through the api, < 1578342287 759116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sometimes the permissions are inconsistent, as in there's at least one list that I can query through the default html interface anonymously, but get a permission error if I try to query it through api.php < 1578342299 548634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was < 1578342344 167524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I met that problem a year ago, might be fixed by now < 1578342451 247449 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just try not to get carried away. => for my part, I’m not going to use it at all :D but glad anyway < 1578342584 266432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: discussion before implementing it => only if it has write operations I think. api.php is useful for read-only stuff too, such as watching new changes < 1578342821 502503 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.104 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1578342865 707890 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that's f... well, fine, within reason. < 1578342988 487157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously only if you don't overload the server < 1578343150 278775 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetically, for watching new changes, there's the push-based mechanism that can be used through having a discussion. < 1578343278 507051 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the data dump for local analysis purposes, though there's a link to that on the main page, so it's very discoverable. < 1578343285 192232 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578343487 492911 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1578346890 807624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is stupid... https://projecteuler.net/problem=674 is so careful to explain that one should pair "distinct expressions from file ", and the file contains a duplicate entry... and turns out you are supposed to compare expressions with different line numbers instead, even if they are the same. < 1578348862 547709 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1578349079 131554 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1578350067 170616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Have you always been doing PE, or is this just for AoC withdrawal? < 1578350749 492054 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was clean for almost 10 years, but AoC kind of triggered this relapse < 1578350778 672781 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is that right? Maybe it was only 6 years) < 1578350788 556953 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A long time anyway. < 1578350789 33374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in that case, sorry if I prompted you to this (I mentioned AoC) < 1578350798 878805 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: don't worry about it. < 1578350954 694204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind of proving to myself that I can still do this. The trick will be to stop when I reach the milestone I set out with (solving the 25 most recent problems. I have two to go.) < 1578351027 196484 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-122.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: solve 25 recent ones on http://www.spoj.com/ too :-) < 1578351043 113387 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 years is about right. I stopped around https://projecteuler.net/problem=231 < 1578351064 853132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yeah probably not. < 1578351094 585358 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is I kind of like the combinatorial sort of problems that PE does. < 1578351269 928452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PE includes publishing dates with their problems so the link is suitable for dating.) < 1578351467 788323 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I've been toying with the idea of doing p5.js visual illustrations out of my solutions, did two already -- https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc-2019-p5/ -- but not sure if I'll finish, not all of them are as visual. Though many are. < 1578351512 196274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not touched any AoC or Intcode... this year, I think. < 1578351550 890547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should get kspalaiologos to write tools for that :P < 1578351742 316223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh the CA one is pretty. In the asteroid scan too much is going on. < 1578351772 772445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Did you let the scan run to part 2? I think that's better. < 1578351808 515750 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part 1 is just a flickery mess, it's true. < 1578351812 144962 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ket me see. < 1578351835 76615 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I remember what it was... yes, part 2 should work better. < 1578351840 681343 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's not going to be any prettier, just less messy. < 1578351856 753853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now I missed the fun part. < 1578351913 245783 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, part 2 is nicer :) < 1578351942 910349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My target asteroid 200 was in the first sweep, not sure if that's always the case. < 1578351973 238013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine was too. < 1578351995 439432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was number 200 as well. < 1578352175 495956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you did the sweep differently :) < 1578352193 686701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern-Brocot_tree to get the possible directions in clockwise order. < 1578352283 423302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1124909/ < 1578352364 785568 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, interesting. Kind of more discrete. < 1578352498 66246 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did consider doing the same thing I did (reuse part 1's 'get visible' function, sort the result) but using a quadrant-and-slope kind of thing for the sort instead of atan2. < 1578352538 508969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, atan2 seems simpler. < 1578352567 310230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you worry about rounding errors... < 1578352606 749203 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, but it gave the right result. :) < 1578352630 157549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, there is that in these competitions. < 1578352635 626763 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the whole "only the visible ones" + the limited size of the grid means you can't really get angles that near each other. < 1578352798 410488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But let's see... two subsequent angles span a parallelogram of area 1, so the angle between them is arcsin(1/(ab)) where a and b are the lengths of the vectors... which are less than sqrt(2)*48. < 1578352813 806521 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> asin (1/(2*48^2)) < 1578352817 598925 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2.170138905922681e-4 < 1578352841 613591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you can see, no need to worry about rounding errors :) < 1578352891 336292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/angles/directions/ (and by "direction" I mean an integer vector (p,q) with gcd(p,q) = 1) < 1578352950 522707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> atan2 1 1 - atan2 46 47 < 1578352953 168869 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.0752273791101219e-2 < 1578352987 106233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> atan2 45 46 - atan2 46 47 -- ah, this is more like it < 1578352989 499597 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -2.362948916323493e-4 < 1578353033 595786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be the actual minumum achievable difference < 1578353046 659320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :iuiuiu. < 1578353106 777327 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> atan2 3 3 - atan2 5 5 -- now I'm curious < 1578353109 325431 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0.0 < 1578353166 962061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wait, your grid is so much smaller than mine! < 1578353186 583385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a 48x48 one. < 1578353196 208493 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. That's what I got as my input file. < 1578353242 796146 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the one day I did real early (as in, leaderboard early), I guess it's technically possible they might have changed the size? Sounds odd though. < 1578353243 694294 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :346 asteroids, not many more than yours < 1578353275 688144 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, quite possibly. < 1578353316 192819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe they just picked a random value between 20 and 50. < 1578353334 285796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like the problem became any simpler or harder because of it. < 1578353450 515244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1124911/ it looks nicer this way actually < 1578353566 349881 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, yes. < 1578353573 56782 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My grid's so cramped. :/ < 1578354887 545964 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (atan2 7673 4316 - atan2 7657 4307 :: Double, atan2 7673 4316 - atan2 7657 4307 :: Float) -- single precision is not enough on an 8K display < 1578354890 125543 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : (-1.2929723736121446e-8,0.0)