00:00:37 my question is, without this mechanism (which has implications regarding the uniqueness of the generated binding), is it still turing complete? 00:02:45 I don't see how it could be. if I treat the tuple store as a set rather than a bag, there's no way to generate unique tuples without explicitly listing them all. 00:03:30 if I treat it as a bag, then I could probably construct some sort of counter. 00:17:38 I wrote this list of ideas for the game; to see if they like or dislike them or can make variants of it to make a more surprise to me. https://arin.ga/JfMezt What is your opinion of this, please? Do you have any further ideas please? 00:55:25 i can't make any sense of the irc program i wrote 10+ years ago 00:55:28 it's 8 bash shell scripts, uses 100% cpu... 00:55:31 all i know 00:56:50 You should write it to not use 100% CPU. 00:57:08 it wasn't intentional 00:58:08 O, OK 00:59:32 I use IRC program I wrote by myself. If I were writing it today though I probably would do some things differently, such as not using PHP (I didn't have anything better at that time). 01:00:42 no idea how beetle (it's name) works. 01:04:09 Other than using 100% CPU, is it any good? 01:04:30 i remember that it is, in a sense, multiple programs working as one. 01:04:31 I had an IRC thing (though I think it might've been an ircII script) that used 100% of CPU too, except it was on my ISP's shared shell server and got me shouted at. 01:04:45 *wince* 01:05:14 It wasn't a particularly large ISP. 01:05:26 They got acquired at least three levels deep, eventually. 01:05:37 -!- tromp has joined. 01:06:56 Dystopia (the original ISP) got bought up by sci.fi, which merged with a bunch of others to join Saunalahti, which eventually ended up owned by Elisa. 01:09:52 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 01:09:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:19:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:33:45 If you want to define busy-beaver-style numbers in a way people will easily agree on, what computation system should you use? 01:34:25 The classic one with Turing machines has questions like whether the tape is double-sided, whether blank is a separate symbol, whether you count number of steps or output size, etc. 01:34:53 What's a sequence that grows as quickly as BB but can be defined unambiguously in one sentence? 01:35:19 I was thinking maybe somthing about the solution to a Diophantine equation of some size, but then defining the size of an equation is slightly awkward. 01:35:34 Hmm, tricky. I think the most important property for such a computation system (beyond being TC, of course) is being simple to state unambiguously. 01:45:22 can you define something analogous to busy beaver machines with lambda calculus or combinators? 01:46:01 Sure. 01:46:12 You can count the number of reductions or something. 01:46:14 yep 01:46:29 Or just produce a large number. 01:46:42 Yeah, I guess a SKI combinator busy beaver makes sense 01:46:43 B(n) = the maximum number of reduction steps to normal form for a combinator string of size n 01:47:12 even those cases still require you to define the syntax to measure size. 01:47:43 true 01:47:55 but it's just a tree where leaves are labeled S or K, right? 01:48:06 a binary tree 01:50:52 still more one way to count that :P 01:50:57 *+than 01:51:10 sure 01:51:15 but it should fit in one sentence 01:51:21 which was the original goal 01:51:33 if you have to define S and K then it'd be a bit of a run-on sentence but whatever 01:53:57 -!- stux|away has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:56:54 -!- stux|away has joined. 01:57:27 i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. 01:58:53 it seems schlock isn't going to attempt communication at this time. 02:14:11 `dowg œrjan 02:14:13 9196:2016-10-08 ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\xc5\x93rjan \ 9195:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9194:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant pou 02:14:26 `dowt œrjan 02:14:27 9194:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9195:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9196:2016-10-08 ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\x 02:14:49 * oerjan cannot recall whether he actually thought of Obelix, as obvious as it is 02:15:00 Obelix? 02:15:04 * pikhq scratches her head 02:15:15 shachaf: you could also use binary lambda calculus 02:15:26 which was designed for roughly this purpose 02:16:04 pikhq: famous for also getting powers by falling into something hth 02:16:23 what are cheesy powers 02:16:36 Oh, as in Asterix & Obelix. Derp 02:17:54 `wisdom kmc 02:17:54 ​kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. She is her own grandpa. 02:17:58 `wisdom pikhq 02:17:59 That's not wise. 02:18:04 `wisdom HackEso 02:18:07 ​hackeso//HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo. 02:18:08 kmc: as a casein point, imagine spiderman-like web made of sticky cheese 02:18:20 I see. Shame about my lack of wisdom. 02:18:41 sometimes the wisest wisdom is none? 02:18:46 there's no pikhq wisdom? 02:18:54 `dowg pikhq 02:18:55 No output. 02:18:58 Woe betides 02:19:00 and never has been 02:19:12 I must have always been a fool 02:19:35 well then i can save work on correcting pronouns 02:19:52 I suppose that does make things easier. 02:20:53 Benefits of being an unquotable fool: pronouns become much more mutable state 02:21:03 Fewer side effects 02:22:23 . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. ) 02:22:59 A likely story 02:26:29 it's just extrapolation https://xkcd.com/605/ 02:26:52 I suppose that tracks. 02:29:43 By extension, soon the entire world will be trans. We're taking over, muahahaha 02:29:48 I'm arguing with a mycophobe on reddit :| 02:29:58 A... mycophobe? 02:30:05 Someone who's afraid of _fungus_? 02:30:07 someone who is irrationally fearful of mushrooms 02:30:12 which would include most americans 02:30:21 Say what now 02:30:28 But mushrooms are delicious. 02:30:37 not "eating mushrooms can be dangerous and you have to know what you're doing" but "oh god anyone who tries to pick mushrooms is going to die no matter how careful they are" 02:30:49 this person also seems to think the only reason to pick wild mushrooms is to save money 02:30:49 Sigh. 02:30:58 oerjan: I used to think I'd be the last cis male left 02:31:05 lol 02:31:25 kmc: So, tell me how that worked out? :) 02:32:16 :3 02:32:33 Nyaruhodō 02:32:43 by the year 2050, all coding is done by trans lesbian catgirls, all of whom are dating each other 02:32:56 pikhq: ? 02:33:34 "Naruhodō" (I see), said in a catlike fashion 02:33:52 kmc: And then, the economy will finally become subservient to the gay agenda. 02:34:02 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:34:23 seems apropos https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71753317_680517102458398_924369166457110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnaI1aohRyAnMzmm-SsSpMKuebusN3Z9PHoa_cp9IRhvAhHuFh92CAjnr9S8lp-Dp1goWX-QZKulownlDCH54dW&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f1303938ed1d6cfd9ed4361195396396&oe=5E29C3BA 02:35:03 pikhq: *taps fingers together* eeeeeeexcellent 02:58:59 -!- imode has joined. 03:05:48 -!- tromp has joined. 03:10:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:36:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:37:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:49:59 shachaf: do you know anything about meditation? 03:50:14 what kinds to do, how to get started etc 03:51:05 Not much. 03:51:30 Here I thought you were omniscient. What use are you anyways? 03:52:19 I know some people who are into it, at various levels of hippitude, and they tend to recommend it? 04:00:14 -!- tromp has joined. 04:04:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:18:36 -!- quintopia has joined. 04:36:52 I've done a bit of meditation 04:38:23 basically all I've done is go into a hypnagogic state while my brain is still awake, basically lay completely still for a long time 04:39:51 eventually you should feel an, uh, weight, or numbness, leading down your extremities 04:42:33 it's weird not having any (changing) sensory input at all... 04:55:42 How to control the set of characters that pushing control and a arrow key skips to in the location bar in Firefox? I want it to skip to only / & = # ? 05:00:01 Hooloovo0: cool 05:00:08 I'm going to try a sensory deprivation float tank probably next week 05:00:17 and see what that's like 05:00:47 fun, let me know how that goes 05:00:59 sure thing 05:02:50 I feel like a sensory deprivation tank would produce the same effects as I get, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm not (sensing/feeling/experiencing) 05:18:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:21:23 mhm 05:21:28 well, it'll be different for everyone anyway 05:21:33 but I'm glad to share my experiences 05:21:52 I have a longstanding interest in altered mental states. 05:22:20 one semester in college I had 2 roommates so I built the space under my desk into a sensory isolation sleeping pod 05:22:23 it was great 05:22:39 I had a thick piece of wood and blackout curtains that I could slide against the open side 05:22:55 I slept in there, would also watch tv on my laptop, or listen to music in the dark 05:23:19 and i'm also into psychedelic drugs but you know that. 05:23:31 zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs? 05:24:02 I have tried to meditate a bit, but never made a habit of it; I am much better at forming habits now than I was the last time I tried, so maybe it will stick this time 05:24:12 my therapist recommend going to some events at the SF Zen Center 05:24:34 hynagogic states are interesting 05:24:42 hypnagogic* 05:24:53 as are dreams 05:25:02 I have used galantamine a couple of times to enhance dreaming 05:25:56 I have never had a real habit of meditating 05:26:31 it's always been somethting I do once every 2 days - 2 months ish 05:27:04 mm 05:27:16 I did take a class on buddhism which I thought was really great 05:27:21 cool 05:29:32 the professor is a monk - he teaches at a monestary/university and I don't know what else to say 05:30:09 cool 05:30:58 another thing i do that is maybe a bit like meditation (or maybe even the opposite) is to listen to music intently in a way that crowds out 'verbal' thoughts 05:31:03 it feels good 05:32:20 at some point in my late teens I gained the ability to follow multiple voices in music in a deeper way than I could before -- in a way that actually feels like multithreaded attention 05:32:56 this happened shortly after I first smoked pot, i don't know if that's related but plausibly 05:33:04 I feel like "not thinking verbal thoughts" is a distinct state of consciousness different from a lot of others 05:34:39 yeah 05:34:47 and the goal of many forms of meditation is to reach this state? 05:35:04 it's what you get from listening while high af, and (chanting/dancing/etc) while arguably sober 05:35:12 yeah 05:37:24 i think drugs usually *don't* help me get there 05:37:39 because i am very analytical and keep trying to describe the drug experience in words (in my own head or to others) 05:38:31 and even if that's not where my attention focuses, i get really analytical on psychedelics 05:38:35 cannabis might be better for it 05:38:50 but yeah I think listening to music intently (whether sober or not) is the best way I know to do it 05:39:00 that makes sense... when I take drugs, I always think about how it's different from base reality 05:39:41 I have not tried psychadelics, just weed, so there's that 05:39:54 well, weed/booze 05:40:07 from this discussion I get the feeling that you would find psychedelics interesting :) 05:40:36 yes, I think so 05:40:51 I mean I'm sure theyd be interesting 05:41:26 I'm not actually sure why I have qualms about taking them 05:41:41 never had an easy chance to 05:42:03 yeah 05:43:01 good to wait and do it right 05:43:12 because the experience is determined mostly by set&setting and not by the drug itself 05:43:27 stanislav grof called LSD a "nonspecific amplifier of mental processes" or something like that, and I think he's right 05:43:44 I think of it as turning up the gain on all sorts of pattern matching systems 05:44:25 so you start to see things that aren't there, but also things that are real and had eluded you previously 05:44:33 not just in the literal sense of 'see' but also with respect to emotions and cognition 05:44:42 but, it's hard to put it into words of course. 05:46:57 yeah, see/experience/feel are different 05:47:20 then on the more intense experiences the subject/object boundary itself becomes permeable, or dissolves entirely 05:47:58 I'm not entirely sure I understand that sentence 05:48:14 which is impossible to describe. anything you say about it is a contradiction because our way of talking is essentially predicated on that distinction 05:48:27 a statement like "I experienced ego death" is obviously contradictory 05:48:32 and yet 05:48:52 ego death is... a thing that happens 05:48:54 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:48:57 it doesn't happen *to* anyone 05:49:33 I was essentially a panpsychist before I started taking psychedelics but it's one thing to believe something and another to experience it, you know? 05:49:45 that there is only one thing, which is you and me and the universe and God and doesn't even need a name 05:49:56 and all the boundaries are heuristics we impose on the world 05:50:19 When I was a v. small human I remember just naturally thinking that everyone was the same person. 05:50:31 And being surprised at the realization that maybe that's not true. 05:50:39 Of course it could be a fake memory like most of my earliest memories. 05:50:41 did you include yourself in that? 05:50:49 how do you know your early memories are fake? 05:50:51 Yes. 05:51:14 ++ 05:51:27 I don't have a lot of childhood memories. I'm told this is a thing that happens with dissociation 05:51:30 but maybe I have enough 05:51:33 Some of them I can tell because they match stories that I've been told, but then when I ask about further details it turns out they're wrong (e.g. not in the place I thought). 05:51:44 mm 05:52:16 I'm not sure what you mean by the me/universe/god statement 05:52:26 Others I think are fake due to other heuristics but I don't remember the details now. 05:52:28 Hooloovo0: I'm only going to make a fool of myself if I try 05:52:31 that's how these things go 05:52:52 lexande frequently submits corrections to my autobiography 05:52:54 I know 05:53:01 I think his memory is better than mine overall 05:55:44 before searching for it again I felt like https://principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php 05:55:47 might be relevant 05:55:52 When any player casts a spell, that player may choose a number which is a multiple of the converted mana cost of that spell, is less than or equal to forty, and has not yet been chosen for ~. If they do not, they lose five life. 05:56:00 re-searching? 05:57:18 Hooloovo0: that is a nice page 05:57:28 I was pretty into discordianism as a teenager 05:57:34 I should probably go back and read the texts again 05:57:36 Hooloovo0: I read that before, and, I think it is good. 05:57:49 * Hooloovo0 reads logs: I know was re: (I'll make a fool of myself if I try) 05:58:01 "Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered." 05:58:07 this can be made mathematically precise in quantum mechanics 05:58:31 that's one of the reasons I like it 05:58:34 you have different basis sets for a hilbert space 05:58:48 kmc: Yes, I suppose so. I have not considered that, but, yes, that makes sense. 05:58:49 a state that looks entangled in one basis is separated in another 05:58:58 and everything you do in the system is basically a change of basis? 05:59:20 Wait, does entanglement depend on your basis? 05:59:21 One book about philosophy that I had read some time ago, mentioned, quoting someone else, they expected you can write a serious book about philosophy consisting entirely of jokes. Now I can think that is correct, because that is what Principia Discordia is. 05:59:22 quantum observation is choosing a basis and then projecting the system state onto it 05:59:25 shachaf: maybe not 05:59:36 I thought that, like being a rank-1 matrix, separability was basis-independent. 05:59:55 zzo38: that seems about right 06:00:33 whoa, I had a basic question about quantum things that maybe you know the answer to. 06:00:47 you shouldn't expect me to be correct 06:00:55 I feel like all the quantum things I know, like entanglement, can be local. 06:00:57 especially in my current state 06:01:03 But I don't know what locality means. 06:01:08 What do I do? 06:02:02 I have looked at the mathematics of quantum state vectors, and it does seem like some states might be entangled or unentangled from some point of view. But, it is confusing and apparently even scientists do not understand so well, so I have heard? 06:02:22 zzo38, no, the PD is completely serious. there's no jokes in it 06:02:42 zzo38: I think the specific thing about whether a state is separable or not is just regular multilinear algebra that people do understand? 06:02:43 * Hooloovo0 goes to get a hot dog 06:03:27 shachaf: Probably you are correct. 06:04:51 Hooloovo0: Are you sure there is no jokes in it? I thought it is completely serious despite it consists entirely of jokes. 06:05:04 `5 w 06:05:08 1/2:norway//Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec. \ k//K K K Ken \ brain//Brains are just receptacles for bricks. \ `hello//`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 06:05:10 `n 06:05:11 2/2:letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline. \ te sting//This is horrible? 06:08:08 zzo38, I'm pretty sure that's syi sydasti 06:11:04 sri syadasti even 06:16:45 -!- xkapastel has joined. 06:27:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:38:32 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 06:42:23 `ddate 06:42:23 Today is Pungenday, the 59th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185 06:42:25 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 06:43:17 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 06:47:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:49:17 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 07:07:59 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:08:24 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:08:50 Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/records_of_puzzles 07:21:07 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:52:36 zzo38: I like the sentence "Do you like this?". 07:52:41 Is that what you were asking about? 07:54:34 shachaf: I don't get it... it's neither fun nor a pun. 08:04:58 Hooloovo0 : hm, i've done that, some 08:05:24 Do you like non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs? 08:05:48 I'm kind of surprised there appear to be so many tradeoffs in ZKP options rather than one clearly best way to do it. 08:11:11 . o O ( that often happens when you solve an impossible problem ) 08:12:04 Impossible why? 08:12:41 yeah, nzsnarks are cool 08:13:04 I took a class from Andrew Miller on applied crypto 08:13:33 Can you transfer a full understanding of nzsnarks directly into my brain? 08:14:06 man I wish it were in my brain 08:14:28 * Hooloovo0 goes to study the scribbled class notes 08:15:01 . o O ( one should be able to teach those while having zero knowledge of the topic ) 08:15:41 (Hooloovo0 : the laying still thing, i mean) 08:16:58 how did you feel during/after? 08:17:56 I'm interested if it's similar to my own experience or if there's some qualitative differences 08:18:31 occasionally, my heart can sometimes start beating heavily, for no discernable reason 08:19:52 it can be hard to maintain a relaxed attention thing. not paying particular attention to breathing, to heart, to visual (non-)input, &c. 08:20:28 yeah, that can happen 08:20:40 in some cases, i've layed, thinking about some mathy/logicy/programmingy problem, and after awhile noticed the sensory world has just faded away 08:21:33 some times, i've tried counting up (sometimes in hexadecimal) (at a sortof irregular pace), in order to keep mind busy, balancing at sleep's edge 08:23:40 occasionally, i've had these weird momentary visual impressions of some kind of scene (i'm pretty sure i didn't accidentally open my eyes), however, disappeared too quickly for me to get any bearings on what's in the scene. i've wondered whether that's a hypnagogic hallucination, but if it is, i suspect it's not the usual kind 08:24:35 I'm not sure there is a 'usual hypnagogic' 08:24:39 (relevant here is perhaps that i don't think i'm a visual thinker, i have a hard time visualizing anything at all. i think maybe i'm thinking "structurally" (in terms of connections ?), perhaps ?) 08:24:46 could be 08:24:50 wtf is happening 08:25:02 go to half-sleep 08:25:26 [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66462&oldid=50788 * A * (-34) Technically Prolog is a 3GL that describes how to achieve a specified result, so does Brachylog, which is inspired by Prolog. 08:25:52 I am definitely a visual thinker, so I'm not sure what non-visual hypnagogicity would be like 08:26:10 one thing which i'm pondered if it maybe is, is related to WILDs, that i saw someone describe. they'd lay awake, and eventually they'd be "presented" with scenes, which if they "jumped into", they'd become dreams (lucid) 08:27:10 I have only once or twice had lucid dreams... they were ok, I guess? 08:28:17 (occasionally, i've had a sensation (partly controllable) of "mind being curled up like a piece of paper in a roll, tighter and tighter". not quite sure how to express that) 08:28:23 ski: Did you read the book _Impro_? 08:28:30 yea, i don't think i've had them many times, either 08:28:37 shachaf : no, what's it about ? 08:28:51 All sorts of things. But it opens with a discussion of this, I think. 08:29:07 * ski is bad at remembering dreams. should perhaps try setting the alarm clock one hour earlier some time, again 08:29:35 I feel like I've had a similar sensation... but I'm not sure 08:29:47 I was probably not sober at the time 08:30:00 _Impro_ is such a good book. 08:30:40 * ski . o O ( ,,, ) 08:32:15 ski: See the first chapter, _Note on Myself_, starting at page 14. 08:32:29 (some book i read described working at it "from both ends", trying to get more access to dreams, from an awake state of mind (iirc, some types of meditation), but also trying to get more access to waking thoughts, from a dreaming state of mind) 08:33:04 "Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone in 1979 ? 08:33:24 -!- int-e has left. 08:35:17 ski: Yes. 08:35:50 [[Deklare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66463&oldid=66176 * A * (+1369) How do I execute a program? 08:36:09 (See link.) 08:36:29 (hm, some time ago, someone in another channel was talking a bit about their programming team being send to some improvised drama thing. this person liked it) 08:39:31 [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66464&oldid=66463 * A * (+236) 08:40:22 [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66465&oldid=66464 * A * (+124) 08:41:45 By 14 I mean 13. 08:50:24 hm, interesting. thank you 08:50:51 "I thought of a house, ..." -- i'm not sure i could do that 08:52:23 * ski . o O ( "Aphantasia: Seeing the world without a mind's eye" (TEDx) by Tamara Alireza in 2016 at ,(questionarie) ,"Vividness of Visual Imagery" ) 08:53:14 whoa, this first chapter (20 pages) is so good. 08:54:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:58:29 Also the rest of the book. 08:59:11 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: :q). 09:00:44 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 09:11:01 -!- int-e has joined. 09:15:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 09:29:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:52:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:54:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:00:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:19:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:23:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:51:52 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:59:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:25:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:35:22 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 11:38:07 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 11:47:17 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66466&oldid=66351 * A * (+86) /* Turing-Completeness */ 11:49:17 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66467&oldid=66466 * TwilightSparkle * (+221) 11:50:25 -!- atslash has joined. 11:54:37 -!- tromp has joined. 11:56:08 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66468&oldid=66467 * A * (+205) /* Turing-Completeness */ 11:57:29 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 11:59:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:33:02 -!- tromp has joined. 12:37:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:01:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:07:21 [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66469&oldid=57563 * Saka * (+81) /* My Languages */ 13:46:10 [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66470&oldid=65457 * Saka * (+76) /* I/O */ 13:48:18 [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66471&oldid=66470 * Saka * (+6) /* I/O */ 13:51:58 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:57:57 -!- tromp has joined. 14:02:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:05:52 -!- zseri has joined. 14:17:20 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:22:09 -!- zseri has joined. 14:24:23 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 14:29:21 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:34:02 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:47:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:00:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:01:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:12:12 -!- imode has joined. 15:17:52 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:23:09 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:36:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:37:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:38:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:39:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:40:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:47:25 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 15:49:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:49:40 “Name of author by Title of book” has some funny scenes though generally it’s too crazy confusingly crazily confusing even for me 15:53:00 like “I’m going to sell your company to me” one, — “What do you mean? I won’t sell!” — “That’s why I’m going to do it” 15:53:20 "CEO of the future" 15:53:25 (and then something confusing happens just the next moment) 15:53:35 it's not that confusing 15:53:51 people sell things that don't belong to them all the time 15:54:58 this, yes, I don’t disagree, ownership is a shady concept 15:55:30 "The international space station, filled with chess-playing Russians and Americans so atrophied they can never return home" 15:55:33 sounds legit 15:55:43 although were the fuck did the European astronauts go? 15:56:14 to Europe maybe^W^W^W 15:57:02 anyway I it sat half-read for some time and I’m going to try to finish it maybe 15:57:53 -!- stux|away has quit (Quit: Aloha!). 15:58:08 -!- stux|away has joined. 15:58:24 controversial pieces 15:58:32 I should write them, not read 15:58:48 have you read "House of Leaves", by Mark Z. Danielewski? 16:01:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:02:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:02:54 -!- atslash has joined. 16:02:58 LKoen: no 16:03:31 it's... interesting 16:03:35 I think it's pretty good 16:03:45 the format is a bit unusual 16:03:47 and the scenario is really, really unexpected 16:09:33 -!- b_jonas has joined. 16:17:22 i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. => yeah. some of them seem like they're just multiple sentences search-replaced to change sentence ending to semicolons. 16:17:45 sometimes what I write on irc looks like that too. I should work on writing shorter sentences. 16:17:54 -!- tromp has joined. 16:19:26 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:22:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:30:00 Marce Proust wrote his books with looooong sentences 16:30:16 sometimes, by the point the sentence ends, I forgot what the beginning of the sentence was about 16:42:33 " ... thinking that everyone was the same person." => as in http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html ? 16:56:15 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:58:56 -!- imode has joined. 17:00:31 (5000) (fizzbuzz) takes 27 seconds. ugh. 17:01:16 I actually wonder why that is. the interpreter has crazy long pauses between steps. 17:04:02 how long does 99 beers take? 17:07:17 the profiling time has come 17:07:22 [[Talk:Zull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66472 * MiroslavRD * (+621) Created page with "Zull? More like NULL!!! --~~~~" 17:07:30 https://repl.it/repls/CompleteSpringgreenSpreadsheet 17:07:37 here's (100) (fizzbuzz). 17:07:40 [[Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66473&oldid=66462 * Salpynx * (+34) Declarative 17:07:42 it takes 2 seconds. 17:07:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahY61e38ms Evoland - this is an interesting game, I first saw a run on a GDQ 17:08:38 7.47ms to expand all the macros, ~2s to fully run FizzBuzz. 17:09:12 I saw long pauses between printing when executing it locally and with larger values. 17:09:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:16:06 [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66474&oldid=63920 * MiroslavRD * (+112) Added more links, 2 sections, and i don't know what i also did 17:20:53 `python3 -cfor n in range(1,101):print(("FizzBuzz","Buzz","Fizz",n)[(0 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz 17:24:51 [[Sashleyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66475&oldid=66402 * MiroslavRD * (+154) 17:28:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:47:33 b_jonas: No. 17:56:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:05 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 18:32:25 is there a binary lambda calculus tutorial somewhere around the web 18:32:33 for someone who has barely ever programmed pure FP 18:33:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:33:17 What is a tutorial? 18:33:39 something that will help me understanding the concept 18:33:56 I've been looking for assemblers too, but it seems like I'm out of luck 18:36:49 `? tutorial 18:36:50 tutorial? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:00 a tutorial is a writeup about burritos I think 18:37:03 My tutorial is as follows: 1. Learn regular lambda calculus. 2. Learn binary lambda calculus. 18:37:17 kspalaiologos: I recommend David Madore's old unlambda writeup 18:37:35 www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 18:37:38 um 18:37:43 http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 18:37:47 stupid browser 18:37:51 what's the esolang that has the simplest possible implementation (not necessarily language). 18:37:59 bytebytejump 18:38:05 I recall one being 6 instructions worth of- yeah something like that. 18:38:33 imode: that's not a well-defined question, but Three-Star Programmer and Waterfall Model are candidates 18:38:58 https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/MerseneTuringCompletness/blob/master/SeedProof.tex#L581 18:39:03 feel free to take the C code if you need it 18:39:28 also probably bytepusher, but I hate it 18:39:45 it's one of my enemy esolangs, like brainfuck 18:40:07 " . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )" => after you get rid of me, obviously 18:40:41 pikhq: wait, so what gender are you now? 18:40:55 * pikhq is a girl ^_^ 18:41:22 kspalaiologos: I don't know what this is. 18:41:27 I don't think we'll run out of cis males, because we get replaced by more young cis males that grow up 18:41:40 imode, it's BBJ interpreter in C 18:41:44 in this particular line selected 18:41:52 ah. 18:41:55 I'm more afraid of the scenario when trans people become the majority so the standards flip upside down, and we'll be the weird ones 18:41:56 the rest of the document won't probably help you much xd 18:42:02 but I think even that would be a win for us 18:43:40 _what_. 18:43:53 bytepusher is a game console using bytebytejump? 18:43:56 jesus. 18:44:01 that's awesome! 18:44:22 the more concerning fact is 18:44:26 they made an assembler for that 18:44:29 . o O ( how fast does it run... ) 18:44:35 and binary lambda calculus is still something I'm too stupid for 18:44:56 kspalaiologos: why is that concerning? I made an assembler for an OISC too, to be able to use symbolic names that work even if I insert or delete words 18:45:03 b_jonas: I think, realistically, that is very far off 18:45:08 I even added local labels 18:45:23 b_jonas, well, bytebytejump is a hard thing to get right 18:45:27 We're only like 0.6% of the overall population 18:45:29 because of the lookup tables 18:45:45 is BBJ turing complete due to lookup tables? 18:45:53 well, yes 18:45:58 you can add only using lookup tables 18:46:00 or subtract 18:46:08 wait, BBJ can't be TC.. 18:46:10 pikhq: who are "we"? trans people, or trans females? and do you count infants into the population? 18:46:14 Trans people 18:46:15 so you can make a subleq to bytebytejump compiler 18:46:28 I'm actually 18:46:31 really interested in doing that 18:47:04 oh 18:47:08 and the nyan cat for bytepusher 18:47:11 wtf is the "structured" equivalent of BBJ. 18:47:13 is 190 kilobytes big 18:47:37 that I'm not surprised at, you need so many lookup tables. 18:47:38 imode, you're left on your own on this one 18:47:40 good luck 18:48:02 pikhq: is there a census on this? I'd like to know the ratio of trans males vs trans females, because it seems like I hear more of trans females somehow, which is weird 18:48:26 you can't really have a "structured" equivalent of BBJ, because there's.. no conditional machinery. 18:49:07 There's relatively few stats on it. I would suspect it's 50/50, and you're biased by the spaces you occupy, _buuut_ there's very limited actual studies. 18:49:28 pikhq: yes, I'm quite likely biased, which is why I'd like to know 18:50:16 https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf is one of the better demographic studies we've got 18:50:37 I've experienced that there are more mtf than ftm honestly 18:51:23 I don't know, although I suppose the reason. 18:52:48 pikhq: that gives a split by age, which is useful, but not a split by genders 18:52:53 You're in tech. We're overrepresented because cis men are overrepresented. 18:52:56 b_jonas: Yeah 18:54:51 I don't really know or care too much how many trans people it is, I think if that is what they want to do, OK; but, I think that it can confuse the language in some cases, and I also think that this "gender identity" shouldn't be needed. One suggestion I have seen is for "man" and "woman" to be social but for "male" and "female" to be biological; that helps a bit, I suppose. 18:55:17 y'know, I like that distinction. 18:55:25 obviously I only know when people tell that they are trans, so for most trans people I probably don't know that they are trans because I don't care 18:56:05 so the more trans female is just among people who write on the internet that they are trans female and I read it 18:56:25 zzo38: I think that's oversimplifying things intensely, and betrays an unfamiliarity with how this shit works 18:56:56 b_jonas: It appears the institute that did that study is now trying to do a better demographic survey now. 18:57:08 According to them, it will be the _first_ such demographic survey ever done. 18:57:14 pikhq: Yes, it is simplifying it. You can have sex change too, so you can be a kind of hybrid, too. (You can also be born as a hybrid of male and female; it does happen.) 18:57:16 that seems quite likely 18:58:08 zzo38: Additionally, much of what we think of "biological sex" is, uh, purely hormonal. 18:58:26 you cannot take enough hormones to turn your penis into a vagina. 18:58:31 and vice versa. 18:58:36 so no, it really isn't. 18:58:39 it's genetic. 18:58:55 imode: Developmentally speaking, your penis was once a vagina, and then testosterone happened. 18:58:59 But, I think that even if a person is a "man" and not a "woman", if they are biologically female (or had the functions of such) at the time their child was born, then they are that child's mother. And if (hypothetically) someone can manage to change their biological sex enough from female to male later and have another child as the male function, then they can be one person's mother and another person's father. 18:59:20 pikhq: I'm pretty sure I'm a male because of my chromosomes. 18:59:23 zzo38: The mere act of "defining biologically female" is itself _much_ more difficult than you think. 18:59:38 imode: Orly? Have you actually had a karyotype done? 18:59:53 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_chromosome basic biology. 19:00:21 if you wanna argue gender identity, whatever. but biology is biology. 19:00:35 imode: Bio 102: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor 19:00:52 pikhq: Yes, I know it is more complicated (I don't know all of the details, but I know it is more complicated than the simplified version I mentioned) 19:01:11 imode: TLDR: shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just being an ass. 19:01:13 congratulations, that doesn't change your genetic makeup. 19:01:29 TL;DR stop discussing this in this channel. 19:01:34 imode: Unless you have actually had a genetic test, you don't even know what your genetic makeup is. 19:01:46 imode: Oh fuck off. 19:01:51 you first. 19:02:32 You're the one who's being offensive and self-righteous. That you are upsetting me intentionally in this way is _your_ fault. 19:02:43 have fun on ignore. 19:03:02 ops: Do we have a policy on offensive BS? 19:03:49 “but chromosomes” is a pretty low quality argument tbh 19:03:56 ^ 19:04:08 Maybe much of it is purely hormonal, but there is also genetics, and perhaps other stuff, so, it is complicated. I don't know how it works though; I am not a biologist. But, I think that chromosomes are probably a part of it. 19:04:08 sorry, I didn't wnat to start that 19:04:44 zzo38: They are -- ish. There's a gene that is commonly on the Y chromosome that triggers the production of certain hormones that triggers a large pile of other phenotypical changes. 19:04:51 (And, a X chromosome, is, normally, something that both male and female will have.) 19:04:54 It's actually _stunningly_ complicated. 19:05:09 And there's plenty of ways for it to go screwy. 19:05:11 OK, I believe you. 19:05:26 (even if I do not understand it completely) 19:05:37 For instance, the gene is only _usually_ on the Y chromosome. It moves over to the X sometimes. There's literally XX cis men walking around. 19:06:54 Yes, OK. I didn't know that, but, OK. 19:06:57 biological sex is complicated but at least it is amenable to scientific inquiry 19:07:18 j4cbo: Gender identity is too -- people are real, even if they're fuzzy and harder to measure. :) 19:07:27 the concentration of mentally ill people on IRC never ceases to amaze me. 19:07:37 ops: ^ 19:08:13 pikhq: identity sure, but societal expectations and roles are impossibly complicated 19:08:28 (It seems to me that such thing as "XX cis men" might be a kind of hybrid, since "XX" is supposed to designate female, but in this case they are otherwise male; but, I don't really know what the proper definitions are, so I may be wrong.) 19:08:43 So's physics. I hear physics is a well-established field. 19:09:02 zzo38: The sex-determining region Y is more-or-less the only functional content of the Y chromosome. 19:09:18 physics is measurable in ways that culture is not 19:09:38 Which is why sociology is hard. 19:09:44 OK 19:10:12 But it's real, so you can _do_ science on it. Just... hopelessly difficult, so expect to spend all your time on establishing basic results. 19:11:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:12:03 * pikhq is beginning to see why some other former regulars abandoned this channel 19:14:36 Freenode’s “ops should not wear hats” thing is unhelpful imo 19:14:55 define wear hats. 19:15:24 j4cbo: Yeah, it makes it difficult to decide who to escalate a conflict over what is appropriate discussion in a channel to. 19:16:12 if you mean take particular sides in a discussion, no, they really shouldn't. discussions and disagreements happen all the time. 19:16:20 imode: “ops should not have +o except when actively using it” 19:16:34 ah, that. eh. 19:16:39 Is imode an op? Please say no 19:16:44 which leads to a... unmoderated atmosphere 19:16:50 I don’t think so? 19:16:54 Ah, good 19:17:20 I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I guess it's more relaxed in some places but I've never had a problem knowing who the ops are. 19:17:22 "An op's conduct is incompatible with what I think is appropriate for this channel" is not a pleasant discussion to have. 19:17:33 j4cbo: our channel operators are fizzie, oerjan and ais523. same as the wiki moderators. you can tell that from NICKSERV ACCESS #esoteric LIST. the hats don't matter. 19:17:50 welcome to #esoteric, where the languages are weird and the hats don't matter. 19:18:24 but I think this is the sort of discussion that you can just walk away from, it doesn't need ops 19:19:26 b_jonas: I am inclined to disagree. It's pretty... Incompatible with me being welcome here at all. 19:19:30 is pikhq trying to get me banned or something for disagreeing with them. if so, that's amazing. 19:19:39 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnimaLibera * New user account 19:20:09 I think that you can temporarily ignore the IRC if you do not like it and later you can discuss something else on this IRC. Since, we discuss other stuff on this IRC, too. 19:20:09 pikhq: I mean, it's a discussion that will die down in a few hours if you ignore it, and it isn't interwoven with some other important discussion that you can't miss at the same time 19:20:14 imode: i think your comments have gone substantially beyond “disagreeing” 19:20:22 j4cbo: such as. 19:20:38 the “mentally ill” remarks 19:20:42 ^ 19:20:43 not related to this channel. 19:20:51 bullshit 19:20:57 Even if you do want to ignore some discussion when reading the logs, if they are a discussion by different people, you could use grep, perhaps 19:20:59 not even related to this server. 19:21:12 b_jonas: Yeah, calling me "mentally ill" is straight-up insulting me for who I am. 19:21:24 imode: it did not read that way 19:21:30 sorry you parsed it that way. 19:21:45 should have probably qualified. the discussion ended for me on "have fun on ignore." 19:21:59 pikhq: yes, I do realize. so ignore the whole discussion. unlike on a high-traffic channel where you have to separate threads, you can easily skip over them. 19:22:23 b_jonas: This is about as inappropriate as calling someone a "f****t" 19:22:30 maybe everybody needs to just step away from their computers and take a walk. 19:22:35 fizzie: ping 19:22:48 “stop discussing this in this channel” is also not your call to make 19:23:06 that I'll accept. was an opinion and shouldn't have come across as an order. 19:23:15 imode: so maybe the only one who needs to step away is... you? 19:23:24 pretty comfortable where I am, actually. 19:23:27 Maybe I should join every other trans person who's ever been in this channel and leave. (there have been several) 19:23:47 no, all of you should step away. I wasn't specific about who. 19:24:43 anyway I’m out for now 19:24:51 and return a few hours later, but after a random amount of time so you don't return all at the same time (which is a proven working strategy on all our ethernet and wifi networks), by which time we'll forget about this 19:25:00 but I'm sorry again for starting this 19:25:09 not your fault. 19:32:50 * pikhq will run off to scream into a pillow for a few hours 19:33:02 wat 19:38:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66476&oldid=66459 * AnimaLibera * (+229) 19:40:03 [[User:AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+33) Created page with " Comming soon (before October 30)" 19:40:42 -!- tromp has joined. 19:45:05 `? ronald reagan 19:45:06 Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union. 19:45:08 `? star wars 19:45:09 Star Wars was a missile defence system invented by Ronald Reagan. With it, he managed to destroy the Soviet Union, then rode into the sunset. 19:45:10 `? soviet union 19:45:11 In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while. 19:45:20 `? daystar 19:45:21 The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office. 19:45:22 `? nightstar 19:45:23 The Nightstars are an unscientific myth of a sky covered in faint flickering lights. Only hermits and superstitious farmers believe this. 19:45:42 `? bofh 19:45:43 A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP. 19:46:32 ah yes, one of those was created by me 19:46:37 <3 19:51:38 `' soup contest 19:51:38 303) my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup 20:01:05 * pikhq didn't even realize initially -- imode misgendered her, too 20:01:08 yipe 20:13:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:21:17 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.). 20:22:28 -!- shikhin has joined. 20:24:58 ``` sed -i '21,$d' share/8ballreplies # let's remove those two extra replies 20:25:00 share/8ballreplies//It is certain. \ It is decidedly so. \ Without a doubt. \ Yes definitely. \ You may rely on it. \ As I see it, yes. \ Most likely. \ Outlook good. \ Yes. \ Signs point to yes. \ Reply hazy try again. \ Ask again later. \ Better not tell you now. \ Cannot predict now. \ Concentrate and ask again. \ Don't count on it. \ My reply is no. \ My sources say no. \ Outlook not so good. \ Very doubtful. 20:25:24 `8ball 20:25:25 Don't count on it. 20:26:55 `8ball > wisdom/8ball 20:26:56 Most likely. 20:28:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:33:46 binary lambda calculus each time reminisces me about Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download, as they are almost isomorphic but the second one is way more human-readable 20:37:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:42:36 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:44:34 `' baptized 20:44:34 441) Having only been Catholic in the sense of being baptized that way, I still really like all their silly arcana Judaism has them beat, of course I almost converted just so I could look at my roommate's books 20:48:13 `? Aragorn 20:48:14 Aragorn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:54:02 `? pants 20:54:07 pants? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:54:25 mood 21:05:04 -!- imode has joined. 21:13:50 i'm wearing pants 21:13:55 i should probably do something about that 21:14:59 * kmc reads scrollback 21:14:59 sigh. 21:15:05 i'm not sure why people are so hung up on chromosomes 21:15:12 they are a starting block, a set of blueprints 21:15:26 which meaning of pants? 21:15:27 so much of human phenotype is determined by other things 21:15:34 b_jonas: the american one 21:15:39 I wear pants for work all the time 21:15:52 pantsu. 21:16:12 en_US("pants") = en_UK("trousers") 21:16:18 en_US("underwear") = en_UK("pants") 21:16:18 sometimes long jeans, sometimes short jeans 21:16:26 this is one of many fun things I've learned from watching British TV 21:16:35 I specifically asked them about dress code 21:16:55 they basically said that since I'm a software guy, I can wear whatever I want 21:16:56 the best one is probably that "fanny" is a very mild term for butt in the US whereas in the UK it means vulva 21:17:07 so I bet they are amused by "fanny packs" 21:17:18 hardware guys sometimes need protective equipment when installing stuff on site 21:17:31 b_jonas: i heard a story that Google in its earlier years once had "pajama day" at work, and the posters said "wear what you wear to bed!" 21:17:35 so a lot of people showed up naked. 21:17:37 kmc: I think it's because some people get caught up on this idea that everything has to be easy, clear-cut, and simple to classify‚ and rather than change this notion when confronted with claims to the contrary they just rage when someone observes something that conflicts with the model. 21:17:43 after that, no pajama day 21:17:45 pikhq: yep 21:17:54 kmc: that sounds like a hoax 21:17:59 pikhq: and gender *seems* very simple if you don't personally have to deal with any of the corner cases 21:18:20 i certainly didn't appreciate how complicated it is until about 5 years ago 21:18:32 b_jonas: maybe. I heard it from a friend who works with a HR person who used to be HR at Google 21:18:40 it's probably exaggerated at least 21:18:59 Knowing Google, I practically guarantee at least _one_ person actually did that. 21:19:05 yeah 21:19:09 Our team had an (optional) "formal Friday" a handful of times. 21:19:11 It probably wasn't widespread though. 21:19:24 fizzie: I advise you read scrollback 21:19:31 pikhq: no, I mean they wouldn't make the mistake of advertising it as "wear what you wear to bed" without disclaimers 21:19:52 Granted 21:20:31 the question is, what were the consequences of showing up naked, apart from a probable escort from the campus. 21:20:40 imode: they got free Google swag to wear for the day. 21:20:47 the idea of working somewhere with a dress code is much less horrifying now that I can wear girl clothes 21:20:52 girl clothes are so much more interesting 21:20:53 that's incentivizing nudity. 21:22:20 indeed 21:22:55 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:23:06 honestly from the stories I've heard about people's first few months (and last) at positions in Google, I wouldn't be surprised that someone took that a little far. 21:23:50 had a friend of a friend who worked at FB. they got into a probation program the first week for not showing up, and then coasted the next 5 months until they were fired, but secured an offer one month prior to firing. 21:23:53 and did the same damn thing. 21:26:21 at one point during university, I attended some lectures in SZTAKI. its building has the dress code of long pants required. 21:26:53 is it dog friendly, and does the dress code apply to animals. 21:27:06 I don't know, I've never seen dogs in there 21:28:21 also at my previous job we had some special events where the interns, after a quarter year long internship, give a short presentation about what they did at the company. that event required formal clothes. they forgot to tell me before the first time they held that event. I never went to the rest of them after that. 21:28:47 formal dress is stupid. 21:29:12 ++ 21:29:28 I don't think formal dress is stupid, but requiring it for that event is stupid 21:30:36 requiring the commonly used formal dress for many events is stupid, I’d specify 21:31:05 yeah, there's only a certain set of events imo that it's appropriate for. 21:31:15 and even then that's probably just cultural conditioning. 21:31:16 such as your own wedding 21:31:28 or a wedding where you're an offical 21:31:50 remind me to mandate crocs at my wedding. 21:32:26 we had that at school rrr (not university, *that* would be the worst and I’d not go there at all, then) 21:32:38 wedding I’m not sure 21:33:20 arseniiv: crocs mandated at school? 21:33:50 or is "rrr" some kind of event, like a prom? 21:34:14 so atm I don’t have any suits, formal pants and white shirts etc., though the tie remains in the closed 21:34:19 b_jonas: er no 21:34:27 I mean there was a uniform 21:34:52 I consider that much worse 21:35:00 a uniform, as opposed to just ordinary formal clothes 21:35:09 because you can choose the formal clothes to whatever you like 21:35:20 but for a uniform, you have much fewer choice 21:35:48 I do have formal clothes, but I haven't worn them since a friend's wedding in I think 2014 21:36:39 this is the advantage of being a software guy with no people skills who thus never meets clients 21:37:29 hmm no, 21:37:36 imode: are you getting married? 21:37:37 actually I haven't worn it since my brother's wedding in 2013 21:37:42 the other wedding was in 2012 21:37:46 kmc: next year, yeah. 21:38:16 woo! 21:38:19 congratulations 21:38:19 oh nice 21:38:25 I got married once, 10/10 highly recommend 21:38:35 so you're talking about an actual wedding, not just hypothetically 21:38:42 gracias! 21:38:44 will the wedding be outside? because crocs could be inconvenient 21:39:13 lmao, I'm waiting on the results from a job interview before we bother planning. it's been 10 years, so we figured we'd tie the knot. 21:41:06 it'll probably be a small thing along the coast. our families suck, sans our immediate family. 21:41:18 will people dance in crocs? 21:41:26 if I have my way, yes. 21:41:52 kmc: 10/10 highly recommend => lol 21:42:27 we didn't do a full blown wedding, though 21:42:36 private ceremony? 21:42:38 got married under the dome at sf city hall 21:42:41 one witness 21:42:49 was kind of a spur of the moment thing 21:42:50 that's the way to go. my sister did that. 21:43:34 I don’t understand weddings with a crowd of people too 21:44:06 we were already promised to each other for life but didn't feel the need to make it official until 2015 when some personal shit went down 21:44:39 the most immediate reason was that she wanted to be legally allowed to make decisions for me if I ended up in the hospital again 21:45:03 so getting officially married was a practical thing, but has turned out to be more emotionally significant than either of us expected 21:45:16 we had already been living together for 4 years 21:46:06 the weddings with big parties are fun, at least if you're not the one organizing and paying for it 21:46:14 i was maid of honor at my best friend's destination wedding in mexico 21:46:16 it was a blast 21:46:51 Read some of the scrollback. TBH, the "mentally ill" part is really hard to accept as unrelated to the preceding conversation, given the timing and context. I think it's also a comment we wouldn't mind classifying as unacceptable, so please don't do that sort of thing. 21:46:54 that sounds awesome. and yeah, a lot of people get married for that reason and that reason only. that's a large motivation for us as well: we'll probably have an "official ceremony" and then have the actual wedding after it, mainly for insurance purposes. 21:48:28 fizzie: if you parse it that way, sure, I won't say that. bear in mind it was about something on QuakeNet. 21:49:07 imode: is the crocs thing because you or your partner have a family member who you really want to keep away from the wedding, but you don't dare to just refuse to invite them, so you make a rule that they'll never comply with, and rather not attend the wedding than wear crocs for it? 21:49:22 or is it to just keep most people away in general, to make the wedding smaller, without any specific target? 21:49:34 more of a parody of what one considers formal attire. 21:49:36 fizzie: After saying "them" to refer to me after my pronouns were made very clear, I think it is pretty unambiguous what imode's intent was. Particularly in context. 21:50:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:53:14 the latest xkcd uses "AM". that's weird 21:53:41 especially considering launches are 24h. 21:54:19 after https://www.xkcd.com/1179/ that is 22:03:11 (BTW in any case anybody wouldn’t like what personal pronoun I’d use please tell me explicitly, by PM or not, as I would likely been just forgotten or hadn’t watched with attention; so there be no feelings hurt) 22:03:49 arseniiv: Innocent mistakes are perfectly fine, FWIW 22:03:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:04:00 * pikhq uses she/her 22:12:55 * kmc is she/her as well 22:13:43 imode: yeah, my friends did the official, legal wedding in SF with a small group of friends and then the bigger wedding in mexico for extended friends and family, the following year 22:13:59 for one I think maybe it's tricky to get a US marriage certificate if you're married in a foreign country 22:14:46 some channels have a bot that lets you set/query pronouns, which is kind of nice 22:14:51 what... 22:15:00 why is it tricky to get a marriage certificate? 22:15:09 cause the wedding happened in a foreign country? 22:15:12 i'm not sure though 22:15:14 just speculating 22:15:51 in california anybody can officiate a wedding after filling out a form. so the first wedding in SF was done by our friend, wearing a pope costume he got off of Amazon 22:16:22 afterwards we grilled steaks and drank to the wee hours 22:16:40 that sounds blissful. 22:16:44 In Colorado the parties to a marriage are the only required signatures. 22:16:44 it was great 22:17:20 my wife and I are thinking about doing a wedding-style celebration maybe next year, for our 5th anniversary 22:17:30 though it happens to be right around my grandma's 100th birthday so we don't want to upstage her 22:17:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:17:42 make it a combo! :P 22:18:09 in california the marriage form doesn't ask for gender (now that same-sex marriage is legal) but there is a box for each partner (only two partners allowed, sadly) to optionally check "husband" or "wife" 22:18:18 as far as I know those checkboxes have no official meaning 22:18:34 only one partner can check? 22:18:38 and they're just on there to satisfy traditionalists 22:18:42 no, each partner can check either 22:18:44 I'd have to doublecheck, but I think CO just completely removed them from the form 22:18:46 ah, better 22:19:24 part of me thinks poly marriage should be legal but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely 22:19:41 most of the rights of marriage can also be established through contract law 22:20:08 the privilege of not having to testify against your spouse can't, but it's also pretty weak from what I understand 22:20:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:20:19 kmc: but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely => me exactly 22:20:22 I should think having "husband" and "wife" on the form would be unnecessary, although maybe it would be helpful if you have a formal ceremony, I don't know 22:20:40 I think that poly marriage should be legal if everyone involved is in agreement with it. 22:20:50 for example what if I trust a close friend but have no soulmate and suddenly fall ill 22:21:16 I mean, this should be signed as easily 22:21:23 zzo38: I think you'd also need forms for adding or removing partners from a poly marriage 22:21:43 eventually a marriage may outlive all of the founders! 22:22:00 kmc: Yes, if it is something which you will want to be recognized by government, then it will be needed. 22:22:07 so it should be a separate procedure, applicable likely to any trusted people: relatives, friends, neighboors 22:22:20 poly divorce law sounds like a quite complicated area that will probably exist one day 22:22:24 arseniiv: you can do that 22:22:29 power of attorney or something 22:22:57 attorneys have superpowers? 22:23:01 kmc: yeah it seems less easy as wedding :D so it should be refactored out 22:23:05 That is mainly the reason I was thinking it is too difficult to implement legal poly marriage right away, due to the difficulty with the existing laws. But, it should be corrected, if possible. 22:25:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has changed nick to Lord_of_Life_. 22:25:38 I know someone who was preparing to sue for recognition of poly civil partnership under the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal 22:25:50 she had lawyers ready to do it pro bono and everything 22:25:59 The form might need a section to mark if you automatically consent in future too, in case you have one or more other spouses already and you do not want to deal with it when further spouses are added, everyone else who doesn't automatically consent in future (at least one is required, but by default it is everyone who must agree to it) to add a further spouse. 22:25:59 but then she broke up with her partners :/ 22:26:24 kmc: I think most of the regulars here knew her at one point :P 22:26:31 pikhq: yeah. 22:27:12 zzo38: I would think all partners should explicitly consent when somebody is added 22:27:38 but that's based on my personal conception of poly marriage and not necessarily something that should be legally enshrined 22:27:45 Yeah. Legal bonds with non-consenting individuals is a bit fucky 22:27:50 It sounds like what this needs is a blockchain and smart contracts hth 22:27:57 lol 22:28:21 kmc: Yes, I think so too, but sometimes someone might not want to deal with it if they are unable to. So, not dealing with it should only be if you agree ahead of time that someone else can agree for you ahead of time, or if you are dead. 22:28:24 I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed 22:28:33 fizzie: and cloud technology too 22:28:43 hm are there schemes for a shared secret that allow expanding the set of participants? 22:28:57 But normally, yes, all current partners (and also the new one) should explicitly consent when somebody is added. 22:29:01 in other words a corporation where each member has the same rights 22:29:40 arseniiv: good question 22:29:44 perhaps ##crypto knows 22:29:54 If you use secret sharing crypotography, and the number of members needed to decrypt does not change, then it is easy to add additional members, I think. 22:30:16 zzo38: probably 22:30:21 you would pick additional points on the same polynomial 22:30:45 I don't think that works 22:30:48 I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed => and symmetrically too? It would get weird if not, or that state wouldn’t be achievable starting with trans. sym. closed marriages? 22:31:00 who would compute the information without revealing the secret? 22:31:06 afaik a k-of-n shamir share is n points from a (k+1)-dimensional polynomial, over an appropriate field 22:31:08 without learning the secret that is 22:31:23 b_jonas: any quorum could do it 22:31:44 if you have a quorum then you can solve for the polynomial 22:31:50 I don't know how you pick which points to share. 22:32:04 random, I guess. 22:32:13 (damn, f.lux has gone red and I don’t see text cursor again. A bug in calculating opposite color, I think) 22:34:21 One kind of secret sharing could be you have a secret point, and each member has an equation for a line that passes through that point. The secret point can be found by any two members. Also it means any two members can add a third by making up a new equation of a line passing through that point. If you are careful then it should be unlikely to match someone else's line. 22:34:21 d'oh 22:36:05 zzo38: ah, maybe that’s how Shamir scheme was invented? First, hyperplanes, and then a bit or generalization and bam 22:36:34 s/or/of 22:38:12 hyperplanes grassmannians plücker coordinates 22:39:10 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:41:39 kmc: don't you mean a degree k-1 polynomial, on a field with at least n elements? 22:41:46 i dunno 22:41:54 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:41:56 I think the field should have lots of elements? 22:42:03 David Madore's crowning achievement on the IOCCC is relevant of course 22:42:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:42:47 for starters, the secret itself is a field element 22:44:04 kmc: no, you can split the secret to multiple chunks, each a field element 22:44:26 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 22:44:39 in particular, David Madore's program uses a 256 element field, and the comments claim that that works for up to 255 parties 22:44:46 b_jonas: ok 22:44:47 hm 22:45:56 https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/24983/choosing-finite-field-size-in-shamirs-secret-sharing-scheme 22:46:26 I dunnoooo 22:46:50 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:48:07 I'd trust that that scheme works, both because it comes from David Madore with docs, and because it's won an IOCCC 22:50:23 `perl -esub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r 22:50:24 Just another Perl hacker, 22:51:22 this is an old one from https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 that evaluates a polynomial over GF(128), before that IOCCC entry has won, but a decade after David wrote that program 22:51:30 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 22:52:42 admittedly GF(128) makes it a bit simpler than GF(256) would be 22:52:47 so it can only encode ASCII characters 22:54:47 whaaaaaaaaaat. 22:55:00 am I crazy, or does "cp/m" as an address resolve to "cp.com/m" 22:55:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:55:59 I think it doesn't 22:56:00 imode: browsers have an option to automatically add ".com" if the domain name doesn't exist otherwise 22:56:20 only when you type into the address bar, not in a link 22:56:39 it's only for two characters. o_O 22:56:46 "foo/bar" doesn't work. 22:56:56 but "fo/bar" does. 22:57:19 they can also automatically prepend www. and prepend http:// 22:57:21 What I prefer is something typed into the address bar is just treated as a relative URL to the current URL, unless it has a colon at first in which case it is a search command 22:57:47 that I understand. what I don't understand is why it only apparently works with two letters. 22:58:04 Some browsers will automatically prepend the scheme based on what the domain name is. (Still, I think it ought not to automatically prepend any scheme.) 22:58:27 nevermind, it somehow works with _multiple_ character strings. 22:58:33 abc/def works, for example. 22:58:41 that is bizzare! 22:59:27 it won't do "google/" though 23:18:25 is it weird that "rose" is used as a color name, when roses are popular flowers that come in all colors you can imagine, sort of like diamonds? 23:18:40 or tulips 23:19:11 I mean, "orange" as a color name makes sense 23:36:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:12 -!- tromp has joined. 23:41:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).