< 1565827678 115736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/10/buffons-needle-easy-way.html is TG < 1565827785 208557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565828645 909761 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565828857 741459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1565828858 33523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1565828864 425738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1565828910 846559 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is TG < 1565828931 903406 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1565830282 977390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Disan14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65501&oldid=65496 5* 03A 5* (-18) 10 < 1565830436 7855 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1565830842 968275 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565831095 955257 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565833791 211923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565833829 784241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: is 48 hours + 1 second a long weekend? (possible due to leap seconds, or do you count the extra second as part of one of the 48 hours?) < 1565834075 744817 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565834361 611386 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1565835967 10046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1565840556 911130 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565840847 903180 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565843928 489974 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1565844138 540045 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565847052 910537 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565847363 905870 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565848642 536175 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1565850085 296704 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Must have knowledge of object oriented programming using HTML/CSS, JQuery" < 1565850085 402167 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://jpl.jobs/jobs/2019-10773-Engineering-Technical-Facilities-Part-Time-Internship < 1565852249 959655 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565852523 988286 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565852632 927985 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565853981 244548 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565854449 224027 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565854760 945967 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still on (my personal spin on) shachaf's error handling thing, I think one problem is languages that raise exceptions at the drop of a hat. "Key not found in map" and "divisor is zero" are not exceptional conditions in the same sense "file not found" or "connection was reset" are. < 1565854818 361710 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can statically insist that the key exists, that the divisor is zero, that the list is not empty, that the pointer is non-null. < 1565854894 716080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I could get behind that, yeah. As the name suggests, exceptions /should/ be used for exceptional conditions that a caller cannot be reasonably expected to handle. < 1565855095 507524 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly agree that exceptions for those things are scow. < 1565855109 837495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, even C raises an exception on division by 0. < 1565855217 896486 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good way to express these static checks is to write tiny proofs that they can't happen. Dependent types lets you do that, but IMO they're difficult to use and they'll never get widespread adoption. Refinement types seem to do much the same thing (in fact might be a kind of dependant typing) but are much more intuitive. < 1565855267 546031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those seem like good ideas that have never been made that usable as far as I know. < 1565855295 879519 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again once you have a good exception mechanism I suppose it's unavoidable that they will be used for things like keys not present in a map, and as a general non-local return mechanism as well. < 1565855338 571032 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the next version of Ada will have dependent types. If so, it will make it the only non-experimental *imperative* language to have them, as far as I know. < 1565855357 995584 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565855378 406251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's Error/Exception distinction is actually an attempt to distinguish between exceptions-as-exceptional-situations and exceptions-as-part-of-the-interface < 1565855393 49081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, "no one" uses Haskell, "no one" uses SMT solvers < 1565855413 501997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh? < 1565855419 334033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: news to me on both accounts < 1565855433 992008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Most Isabelle users use SMT solvers all the time!) < 1565855434 635474 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a good idea that has never been made usable < 1565855440 993058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course nobody uses Isabelle) < 1565855441 881922 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm being facetious) < 1565855467 776825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This one is actually much closer to the truth. I suspect there are about 100 serious Isabelle users? Maybe I'm wrong.) < 1565855468 450606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For refinement types, my point of reference is Liquid Haskell < 1565855523 603683 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: To be fair, there are a lot of systems *like* Isabelle, if you added up all those users, it might make a dent in the statistics. < 1565855529 191141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really hard to estimate these things! (Coq is inexplicably far more popular. It's so much harder to use!) < 1565855551 448217 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the impression Lean is the New Hawtness in this area < 1565855598 203606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's Z3 < 1565855611 819705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z3 is an SMT solver, like CVC4 and Yices? < 1565855618 764494 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a name which will forever make my think of Infocom when I read it < 1565855619 737825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in the same boat, I thought. < 1565855651 452656 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Z3 is more SAT than SMT < 1565855665 657749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure, tbh < 1565855669 415309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, Z3 is an SMT-solver. < 1565855698 725704 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. http://theory.stanford.edu/~nikolaj/programmingz3.html < 1565855703 910585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMT = Satisfiability modulo theories = DPLL + theory oracle; all the SMT solvers have a SAT solver core. < 1565855749 921487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in contrast to first-order theorem provers like Vampire, iProver, E, the old Prover9 and Mace4 ... and a bunch of others I forgot. < 1565855830 332220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What seems to be true is that SMT solvers are slowly acquiring limited first-order logic support (*some* universal quantifiers). But I don't know whether this is practical. < 1565855847 913390 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... so the reason Z3 has bindings to a bunch of regular programming languages is because you're supposed to write the "tactics" in the regular programming language? < 1565855877 375647 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, among other reasons I suppose < 1565855884 225508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Compilers can use SMT solvers for loop optimizations (in particular elision of bounds checks) < 1565855908 473020 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using the linear integer arithmetic fragment) < 1565855930 738134 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and Liquid Haskell uses a SMT solver (Z3 or some others) to let you write tiny proofs of the properties of the functions you've written < 1565855993 925535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for such things it's nice to have an API instead of having to write out thousands of SMT-lib files, to be parsed by the solver, and then reading back the solver's output... < 1565856041 356707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's incremental solving... (basically: you set up common constraints, then add and remove some additional constraints repeatedly) < 1565856120 5910 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit like superoptimization, except for theorems? < 1565856120 80639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, lots of stuff going on in that area. < 1565856205 931749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think of it as an advanced backtracking technique. Meta-backtracking, if you will. < 1565856334 81499 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm... I thought this program was going to run for about 8 hours... it's at 1136 minuts already. < 1565856336 49008 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without such a general solution, you can fairly easily build a static analysis phase that complains if you say x/y in a context where you don't know y is 0, and so forth. < 1565856346 238337 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not 0 < 1565856377 947269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah of course static analysis tools are also an important target for SMT solver APIs :) < 1565856394 371859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though I guess the compiler example is a special case of that.) < 1565856421 963050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes looks up supercompilation. (I have a vague idea, but no definition.) < 1565856480 908875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacompilation is impressively short :P < 1565856623 274877 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it as "here is a constraint, go try every (short!) permutation of machine instructions to find one that satisfies it" < 1565856636 716138 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often takes longer than 8 hours < 1565856662 652082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization < 1565856683 356279 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "supercompilation" is a different thing < 1565856716 491961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah!!! I conflated two different terms there. Thanks! < 1565856748 978076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Totally different concepts.) < 1565856816 800699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "often takes longer than 8 hours" <-- I hope that in practice you determine in advance how much time you want to spend on this kind of foolishness and then you take the best result you got in that timeframe? < 1565856837 799658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess you can also optimize as a continuous process and deploy everyt improvement you find) < 1565856993 507693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can actually see a company like Google doing such things. "We spend 0.001% of our computational power on trying to superoptimize our inner loops. If we manage to improve one of them by 1% that will pay off." (numbers are adjustable.) < 1565857069 266374 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think, other than for research and entertainment, it is mainly done by compiler developers < 1565857136 914047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose nVidia & co. are also doing such things? < 1565857178 626128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, lots of conversation < 1565857181 640271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Whenever there's a new game release, a few weeks later there's a graphics driver update, presumably with specially crafted binaries for the most important shaders.) < 1565857181 661909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMT solvers are TG. < 1565857213 563506 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. I can see how hardware manufacturers might care about it too, but I really don't know < 1565857229 999740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm speculating, of course. < 1565857250 410564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But consumer graphics cards sell by framerates in popular games. < 1565857277 160146 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565857333 523553 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565857437 417176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a shady industry < 1565857471 245576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not speculating about the new driver releases... those can be observed in practice. " releases new drivers after release of , solving some minor glitches and improving framerates by 10%" is a fairly common news item in tech news.) < 1565857514 573066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know for sure whether they include precompiled shaders, but this would go a long way towards explaining their ridiculous sizes. < 1565857575 852395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would sure be better if they just gave you an interface that let you optimize your shaders yourself. < 1565857808 870184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Supported operating systems: Microsoft Windows 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, XP, 2003, Media Center, Vista and Windows 7" ... hmm I think I approve of this list ;-) < 1565857968 972472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, I had not seen that yet... nVidia has "Game Ready Drivers" (focusing on "support for the latest games") and "Studio Drivers" ("prioritizes stability and quality for creative workflows") < 1565858015 879031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 496MB download. Explain that :) < 1565858213 587536 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they forgot to run `strip` < 1565858418 768261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are programs over 1024 bytes even necessary? < 1565858439 924090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just imagine the best program out of all 1024-byte programs. < 1565858448 853417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be so good. < 1565858455 534274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had a halting oracle. < 1565858462 2887 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565858485 77193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes it will halt (you won't prove me wrong) ;-) < 1565858523 681854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my program was "while (1);" < 1565858541 305488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what? < 1565858552 988380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your uptime? < 1565858661 300754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a second part to this... a halting oracle is not what you really want. < 1565858691 922115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What good is a program that halts after 10^10^10^10 operations? And that's a small number in the context of computability... < 1565858697 75096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'd at least like it to halt with what it's doing to Sun < 1565858724 786635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the program will affect the Sun much at all. :) < 1565858727 621039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway there are plenty of uses to a halting Oracle. < 1565858765 180268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have one you can certainly answer the more limited kinds of question you're talking about too. < 1565858768 744246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you could... determine the truth... of certain mathematical conjectures. < 1565858787 13634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's not a proof if it involves an oracle) < 1565858835 29949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I imagine a halting oracle wouldn't be cheap. < 1565858846 272182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably extract bits of the shortest proof, one at a time? < 1565858865 658272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it would work like a drug dealer though... you get one question for free. :P < 1565858889 684124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've asked before what you would do with a single-use halting oracle. < 1565858891 363740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("you" being the whole of humanity :P) < 1565858919 52638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just imagine the fight we would have over which question to ask!) < 1565859038 780004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And imagine the disappointment when we cleverly bundle everything we can think of together in a big conjunction (program that looks for counterexamples to Collatz, Goldbach, Riemann...) and the answer is that the program halts. < 1565859090 686378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't remember you asking that before. Maybe I missed it, maybe it didn't spark my interest at the time. *shrugs* < 1565859096 152120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minds are weird! < 1565859157 945338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I only asked in other places. < 1565859202 266519 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want a halting oracle, I want a greater recognition that there are (ideally) two classes of "programs": batch jobs that always halt, and reactive programs that never halt (until the administrator explicitly stops them.) < 1565859249 337495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many of the programs we use are the reactive kind, but so many of the languages we use assume you're going to write the batch kind < 1565859255 692948 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems irrelevant to questions about halting oracles. < 1565859270 770978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are programs that don't halt productively. < 1565859279 18805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the way in which they don't halt is productive. < 1565859327 882716 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in more of an engineering mood than a CS mood this morning I suppose < 1565859373 550042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, then sure. < 1565859384 856454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do languages assume one or the other? < 1565859425 788723 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not a huge practical problem, but, teaching kids to write games in Python or whatever and you have to explain why there is "main" and an "event loop" and this is just distraction < 1565859471 943094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A distraction from what? < 1565859498 982085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"while (true) { get_input(); compute(); show_game(); }" seems like a pretty reasonable description of what you want the computer to do. < 1565859575 394792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, what about initialization? Do you want to do that in awk style, defining a special event for it? BEGIN { ... } < 1565859588 847163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(awk and sed are kind of event based ;-) ) < 1565859599 137440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in a very awk-ward way, of course.) < 1565859625 946779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google "sedistic" < 1565859627 55521 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/hyjal/sedistic < 1565859632 573136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1565859687 592964 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: A distraction from how you design and code the reactive application that is the game. < 1565859728 867391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people write games in erlang? < 1565859749 278552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying something other than that there should be higher-level libraries and things for writing games? < 1565859755 369515 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I would totally believe that there are some MMP servers written in Erlang < 1565859757 655601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(am I missing another prominent actor-based programming language?) < 1565859820 43600 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, I'm talking about programming paradigms. One such is put front-and-center in most languages, but it is secondary or basically ignorable in a lot of applications. < 1565859931 969174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :while we're throwing out paradigms... am I the only one who thinks FRP is a mismatch with game programming because it's so hard to make the set of actors dynamic? < 1565859967 524830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more precisely, exprssing event flow by arrows < 1565860040 345300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that I formed this idea when I saw the first articles on arrow-based FRP and it stopped me from ever trying FRP myself... so it's quite possible that it's a misconception. < 1565860168 623293 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, all the other actor-based languages I can think of, I can't call prominent. And almost all the uses of "FRP" I hear, have only a tangential relation to the FRP you're talking about :) < 1565860170 473908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a second aspect that's holding me back there... lazy evaluation and real-time are at odds as well.) < 1565860213 392331 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: a lot of proponents of FRP hold that arrow-based FRP doesn't count, for what it's worth < 1565860252 564844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I have not encountered FRP outside of Haskell, which is probably entirely my own fault.) < 1565860265 635603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's functional because it's got functions in it, it's reactive because it reacts to events, it's programming because it's a program < 1565860271 900575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sounds fair < 1565860278 478088 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I conclude that Visual Basic is FRP < 1565860286 74239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Excel! < 1565860336 614071 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is just a refinement of the view that Excel is a functional programming model... it's reactive because cell updates trigger further cell updates) < 1565860445 373090 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Excel is honestly a lot closer to FRP than many JS libraries < 1565860465 742299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think the weakest link here is "P". < 1565860481 61366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of the three letters FRP) < 1565860833 396707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Have you ever played with Squeak? < 1565860938 710397 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-173-73-232.range86-173.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565860990 512174 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Not really. Smalltalk never really excited me. Though I can see how it's probably a bit closer to what I'm talking about here. < 1565860991 950113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I tried it once... and couldn't get over the fact that you have to work within the Smalltalk VM for everything. I want my external editor...) < 1565861021 972406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I want actual source code as well. Not "click on this window representing a class to add a method to it") < 1565861060 532881 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, not really a fan of languages that want to stay inside their own "hermetic" environment < 1565861068 950383 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I tried it once but gave up because something wanted me to middle-click) < 1565861085 90833 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at the time I was on a laptop with no middle click) < 1565861136 861747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Which is sad because Smalltalk per se looks kind of cool. < 1565861195 29503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should look at Swift. (I saw it's "Objective C minus C", so that should give us Smalltalk again :P) < 1565861236 598001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct Player { <-- uhm... yeah... nope. < 1565861304 469645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1565861319 391255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just peeking... and it looks a lot closer to Go than I expected from that description (tbf, the description came from Wikipedia).) < 1565861338 599025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "nope" as in "not Smalltalk" and also "not minus C". < 1565861355 846436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "struct" is a big part of C to me ;) < 1565861409 949340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Swift is very Smaltalky. < 1565861443 27286 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Objective C is probably cursed. I will not go into details, unless perhaps you ply me with rum. Ahhrrr. < 1565861456 251062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And you're right. < 1565861508 639439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 'At WWDC 2014, Apple introduced a new language, Swift, which was characterized as "Objective-C without the C".' is the description I was referring to, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C#Apple_development_and_Swift < 1565861522 718411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once looked into Objective C. I reimplemented NSObject and things to figure out what was going on. < 1565861528 28328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And now that I took a closer look I totally disagree with that description. < 1565861528 407908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In... 2012? Man. < 1565861533 585616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway it's a bizarro language. < 1565861548 195847 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye, Swift would of course inherit the curse. < 1565861616 810182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I guess they still have keyword arguments, and methods, and they dropped all the unmanaged, unsafe memory stuff. < 1565861649 476940 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'let 🐶🐮 = "dogcow"' < 1565861661 829873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just what I always wanted... smileys as identifiers. yuck. < 1565861899 888956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, perhaps shachaf would like this: if let constantName = someOptional { ... } else { ... }, corresponding to case someOptional of Just constantName -> ... | Nothing -> ... < 1565861961 773271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's related to the thing I want but it seems kind of worse. < 1565861996 89666 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no, I'm thinking of a different Swift feature with a similar syntax. < 1565862063 943076 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like a reasonable syntax for a special case of pattern matching? Not particularly better or worse than case. < 1565862095 439983 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like a way to overload the term "else" < 1565862158 476665 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not go all the way and overload "or" < 1565862161 15053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"guard let" is the one I was thinking of that was kind of annoying. < 1565862225 64356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :guard let x = y { ...; return ...; } < 1565862232 495000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, guard let x = y else { ...; return ...; } < 1565862248 178739 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The else block has to have an exit statement. < 1565862302 345024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be better if: Instead of requiring an exit, it could provide a substitute value; instead of being part of the "let" syntax, it was just an expression, as in "let x = guard y else { ... }" < 1565862467 773511 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like && and || in Bourne shell for this. < 1565862508 594386 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The exit code is only nominally an integer; it's actually some kind of error-type value. < 1565862661 920594 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :; should really do what && does (I think there's some flag in modern shells that makes it so.) < 1565862799 156216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh they do the Java thing where an enum is really more of a tagged union... < 1565862837 166450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a Java thing? < 1565862839 733952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the matching syntax for that is ugly: case .upc(let numberSystem, let manufacturer, let product, let check): < 1565862845 23231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I first saw it in Java < 1565862873 229222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java does that? < 1565862909 213983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Java made you use class inheritance to emulate tagged unions. < 1565862935 64999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java goes a bit beyond that. An Enum is syntax for a base class (the enum type) and subclasses for each enum element... which can carry their own data and methods. < 1565862959 671139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, modern Java does that for you. < 1565863003 652583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have an example? < 1565863015 665698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1565863045 662149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked it up and it didn't seem to be that way but I might've looked at the wrong thing. < 1565863047 580612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google java enums < 1565863048 450416 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.w3schools.com/java/java_enums.asp < 1565863088 960708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tdnh < 1565863107 79484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it didn't because it has too little detail < 1565863116 585200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can find something though :P < 1565863220 390104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at a bunch of things before asking. But maybe now I've found an example of the thing you're talking about. < 1565863245 170975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, I don't care about Java. < 1565863753 50918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hmm I seem to be misremembering the details. https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se12/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.9.1 <-- each enum element has a class body, but I'm not sure whether that's enough to associate arbitrary additional fields to each case. I don't want to try either. The examples I've seen just associate fixed values with each case (planets with weight and size seem to be... < 1565863759 598577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...popular) < 1565863834 482658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's amazingly hard to find the *documentation* of this feature... I had to start with "java syntax reference" because with anything more specific the search results would be swamped with useless secondary sources (tutorials, guides... well-intentioned but they barely scratch the surface) < 1565863853 194103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... back to Swift. < 1565863891 798641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you looking at all these languages lately? < 1565863904 970677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you also come to the conclusion that all languages are terrible? < 1565864004 960772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've realized that I've never looked at what those languages really are. < 1565864039 862373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "C-like managed language" is not detailed enough to criticize or embrace a language :P. < 1565864052 797992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you hear about this exciting update? https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2019/08/the-not-so-hidden-cost-of-sharing-code-between-ios-and-android/ < 1565864064 819190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:30 So Dropbox's new "mobile strategy" is to write everything twice, once for each platform. < 1565864067 823417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:31 How did we get to the point where each platform has its own programming language that you have to use? Wasn't this the point of high-level languages in the first place? < 1565864101 94586 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'll thank you to stay out of my walled garden < 1565864123 570977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how you computers now. < 1565864137 304383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We allowed vendor-lockin for software (in the name of security) is how we got to this point. < 1565864196 486444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's really no mystery to it. Apple in particular wants this to be expensive. But I don't think Google is far behind, Microsoft has been doing the same thing on an API rather than a language level, for ages. < 1565864992 836495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: While you can have custom fields and methods on an enum constant, you can't readily *access* them, because the enum constant is of the enum type. It's a little like doing `SomeConcreteClass foo = new SomeConcreteClass() { String notSoUseful = "foo"; };`. < 1565865002 340216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: What you *can* do with them is define some abstract methods in the enum type, and then implement them in the constant: https://ideone.com/TlCjqB < 1565865041 68020 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard example is 8.9.3-3 in https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se12/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.9.3 < 1565865141 544206 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Remember Microsoft J++? < 1565865366 835018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nope < 1565865432 606419 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not important, the main point is, yes, this sort of thing has been going on for ages < 1565865457 138453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But I do remember C# of course. < 1565865482 514928 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565865543 706343 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember Java < 1565865586 736140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you remember ALGOL 68? < 1565865620 5271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: As I recall it, Java was meant to be platform-independent, so it's in a different category :P < 1565865637 533715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course now it's meant to be a money-maker for Oracle. < 1565865803 708271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Buffon's needle? < 1565865809 410931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, done with Swift for now. Things that stood out are enums, properties, and extensions. < 1565865820 280934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: only once it's bent into a circle < 1565865834 273306 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only like it when it's bent into the word "this". < 1565865858 122488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this < 1565865859 236380 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1565865894 186452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learnappend this// Nobody likes this. < 1565865894 764817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learnappend: not found < 1565865903 266962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓈? < 1565865910 330403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn-append this// Nobody likes this. < 1565865910 996242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn-append: not found < 1565865914 257137 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. < 1565865936 892361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url bin < 1565865937 690554 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin < 1565865981 849558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append this Nobody likes this. < 1565865984 96957 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't open wisdom/thi: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'thi': Nobody likes this. < 1565865990 766319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1565865997 143809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1565865998 112072 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1565866005 490650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty bad. < 1565866010 624844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recommend le/rn_append hth < 1565866063 806216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn_append this//Nobody likes this. < 1565866065 910725 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'this': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this. < 1565866077 900554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nobody < 1565866079 21621 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody killed the cyclops Polyphemos after he tried to eat a shipful of sailors, and this perceived injustice made Poseidon so mad he swore vengeance at him and the gods couldn't calm him down for ten years. < 1565866094 824170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a b_jonas entry < 1565866099 267894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the cross-platform mobile thing, heard a lot about Flutter again while visiting MTV. I think I'd give it a go if someone forced me (or a tiny team) to build something on "both platforms" (...) with identical features. < 1565866100 629032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits nobody < 1565866102 212308 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like something I'd have written 6 years ago < 1565866102 352412 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän b_jonäs < 1565866121 308673 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hwrl nobody < 1565866122 64510 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/nobody < 1565866187 274366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Both platforms: iOS *and* Mac OS. < 1565866224 270001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think the solution will be to write my own UI library. < 1565866259 317522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx learn_append//echo "Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append." < 1565866260 880459 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn_append < 1565866268 770970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append < 1565866269 709204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't do inplace edit: wisdom/ is not a regular file. \ /hackenv/bin/learn_append: line 5: wisdom/: Is a directory \ Learned '': cat: wisdom/: Is a directory < 1565866278 539211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1565866285 169945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``mv learn_append bin < 1565866285 697202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found < 1565866291 176324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` mv learn_append bin < 1565866292 900218 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565866298 234001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append < 1565866298 756317 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append. < 1565866315 394018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately this wouldn't have helped with your first two attempts. < 1565866323 744577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very good at this. < 1565866350 923768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -l le < 1565866351 721669 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 4 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 13 Jul 8 2017 rm -> ../bin/forget \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 17 Jul 8 2017 rn -> ../bin/slashlearn \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 225 Apr 7 2018 rn_append < 1565866362 82945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah but those didn't end up in the repository history so I regard them as harmless. < 1565866417 973604 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? le/rm ? < 1565866425 562320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag le/rm < 1565866427 121152 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9046:2016-09-16 ` ln -sf ../bin/forget le/rm \ 9044:2016-09-16 mkx le/rm//rm "wisdom/$1" < 1565866430 783934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figures. < 1565866494 502225 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? what < 1565866495 488600 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565866512 671277 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sorry < 1565866513 821368 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565866517 341982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hug < 1565866518 368793 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ < 1565866597 738387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1565866598 742032 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? < 1565866650 889277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm going to sleep. < 1565866762 194006 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1565867380 936250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CrispyPin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65502 5* 03CrispyPin 5* (+123) 10Created page with "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." < 1565867513 200961 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565868359 550963 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1565868593 706929 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Rail14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65503&oldid=39735 5* 03CrispyPin 5* (+338) 10 < 1565868788 756606 :limbo_!ar@45.63.9.236 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1565869750 238963 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870138 988104 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565870311 294221 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870328 967236 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:84ec:ede9:5420:4aeb JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870484 52905 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I guess if you measure it accurately enough, then 2017-01-01 was a long weekend too because of the leap second < 1565870801 672775 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, raising an exception for floating point division by zero by default is a stupid decision that some languages including python and perl do for legacy reasons < 1565870817 823939 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the workarounds to do a floating point division without raising an exception aren't even simple there < 1565870872 313388 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -cx=0.0;print(3.0/x) < 1565870872 964735 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `3.0/x' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python3 -cx=0.0;print(3.0/x)' < 1565870881 983630 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'x=0.0;print(3.0/x)' < 1565870887 358903 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ ZeroDivisionError: float division by zero < 1565870903 800243 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'import numpy; x=numpy.float64(0.0); print(3.0/x)' < 1565870905 398815 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-c:1: RuntimeWarning: divide by zero encountered in double_scalars \ inf < 1565870985 721142 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like two more lines of code to ingore that warning < 1565871020 519770 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and < 1565871084 8617 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); x = a["foo"]' # raising an exception when looking up a key in a dictionary and it's not found, that I can understand < 1565871084 813528 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ KeyError: 'foo' < 1565871121 922487 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); del a["foo"]' # but python's dict is the only dictionary that's pedantic enough to raise an exception when a key is not found when you're trying to remove it < 1565871125 217613 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ KeyError: 'foo' < 1565871147 515212 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); a["foo"] = "bar"; x = a["foo"]; del a["foo"]' < 1565871148 284831 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565871347 849244 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" it's a shady industry" => groan > 1565871949 319128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65504 5* 03A 5* (+1695) 10Created page with "[[Osis]] is a stack-based language specialized in sequences. Not only as in the commands, but also as in how it calculates the sequences. With smart memory usage and memoriz..." > 1565871986 352111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65505&oldid=65504 5* 03A 5* (+94) 10 > 1565871999 660370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65506&oldid=65505 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10 > 1565872216 143275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trance14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65507 5* 03A 5* (+416) 10Created page with "[[Trance]] is a useless language that only has replacement commands. ==Syntax==
 1: Replace all inputted 0's to 1's. 0: Replace all inputted 1's to 0's. 
==Computat..." < 1565872439 855886 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ; should really do what && does (I think there's some flag in modern shells that makes it so.)" => set -e; I use it in HackEso one-liners all the time, and it's not particularly modern < 1565872459 512225 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; echo one; true; echo two; false; echo three; echo four < 1565872460 201100 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :one \ two < 1565872507 633690 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatically exit when a command fails, unless it's syntactically in such a position that cares about whether it succeeds (it's not really the semicolon that's special < 1565872509 9361 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1565872661 989746 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh, TIL about set -e < 1565872665 130369 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good to know < 1565872788 208507 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" int-e: While you can have custom fields and methods on an enum constant, you can't readily *access* them," => yeah, java has learnt the good practices of data hiding from HQ9+ < 1565872800 106532 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and encapsulation < 1565872824 729377 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/9[+]/9++/ < 1565874163 950451 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aidpyummdjtiazth JOIN :#esoteric < 1565874406 129397 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Uh oh. I got around to testing your Wagon implementation on the test cases in my document and there are... discrepancies. < 1565874494 27120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1565874512 743961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tested a few, but I didn't test them all. < 1565874521 728999 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://gist.github.com/cpressey/9969c27e7a877af15bf81665c96c815f < 1565874772 853688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh did I get the order of the subtraction arguments wrong... < 1565874865 973378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I did < 1565875030 113906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's annoying; it makes negating the top of the stack quite a bit harder. > 1565875056 702810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65508&oldid=65506 5* 03A 5* (-86) 10 < 1565875058 670161 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there some way to just rearrange elements near the top? < 1565875079 139226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is but it involves using 'r' a lot. > 1565875085 486534 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65509&oldid=65508 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Command reference */ > 1565875175 470586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65510&oldid=65509 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10/* Command reference */ > 1565875189 494180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65511&oldid=65510 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Powers of 2 */ < 1565875254 957915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so if you change opS to opS (a : b : ss) = b-a : ss does that fix it? > 1565875326 203942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65512&oldid=65511 5* 03A 5* (-12) 10 < 1565875494 680716 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, it does. > 1565875535 484692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65513&oldid=65512 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Command reference */ < 1565875558 521589 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure to what extent this affects the fromTag compiler < 1565875573 489204 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the helper functions look easy to fix < 1565875637 130252 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is just one s in the main body of it, from what I can see < 1565875673 532685 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering at some point whether I should add x/X for swap ("eXchange") > 1565875769 377570 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65514&oldid=65513 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* Powers of 2 */ < 1565875853 216655 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565875889 547108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I'm fixing this... it'll just generate quite a bit more code < 1565875904 877737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"iriisririiisissr" swaps the top two elements of the stack < 1565875926 326109 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh good > 1565875949 294428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65515&oldid=65514 5* 03A 5* (-26) 10 < 1565875949 641863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, readable: 1r 0r 1r 2r < 1565875966 942560 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah ha right, there's another small thing < 1565875968 62868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where the numbers correspond to pushing that number on the stack) < 1565875976 662493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The doc says the argument to r must be 0 or 1 < 1565875989 542798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1565876000 440272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did this because I was too lazy to specify what order the retained elements are pushed back onto the stack < 1565876029 158818 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2r is technically undefined behaviour < 1565876045 649913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *will* be annoying. < 1565876065 75207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me fix the subtraction thing first. < 1565876110 685044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't think about that... to me it seemed obvious that the retained elements should just stay where they are) > 1565876201 793133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65516&oldid=65515 5* 03A 5* (+35) 10 < 1565876212 862068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the subtraction issue is resolved. Now let me think about whether I can reasonably deal with the 'r' thing... > 1565876298 654438 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65517&oldid=65516 5* 03A 5* (+34) 10/* Period [1,2] */ > 1565876312 729213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65518&oldid=65517 5* 03A 5* (+11) 10/* Command reference */ < 1565876423 853673 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should put a page on the wiki about this Wagon thing, pointing to where it's defined and the implementation and other info < 1565876910 109778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Nah, the 'r' thing messes up everything for me. With only 0 and one, you cannot change the adjacency relations of elements on the stack (viewed as a ring with the last element linked to the first). < 1565876978 358157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all data movement has to happen through arithmetic... which may be possible, but it's bound to be much harder than what I've been doing. < 1565877048 734554 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565877132 74549 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have been clearer and/or done a more proper release. I'm sorry. < 1565877232 762340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you can do the in-place swap a = a-b; b = b+a; a = -a-b; < 1565877282 870049 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nah, no release is completely normal. these things tend to just escape without a release. > 1565877499 840462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65519 5* 03B jonas 5* (+433) 10Created page with "Wagon is a stack-based language created by cpressey in 2019. It's advertised as a "second-order concatenative language". It uses a stack of unbounded size integers and a sma..." < 1565878067 686810 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in a wagon program, all the while loops are nested, like as an ordinary program they would look like *[*[*[...*[*[*]*]*...]*]*]* where the brackets are while loops and each star can be any sequence of ordinary non-looping instructions that act on the stack? < 1565878091 684846 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't have two loops that aren't nested but are next to each other, like *[*]*[*]* > 1565878121 983589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65520&oldid=65467 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12) 10 < 1565878220 509896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh well, I think I can make this work, but wow is it tedious ;) > 1565879011 851090 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65521&oldid=65519 5* 03B jonas 5* (+64) 10 < 1565879156 462694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: for example, diriisririisrirsirdiisriririisrirsirdiriisriisiriisrirsirsiisrir swaps the top two elements of the stack < 1565879202 853131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without using 2r) < 1565879252 351427 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary < 1565879266 248562 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is this why you were talking about super-optimizers? < 1565879273 72153 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find shorter wagon instruction sequences? < 1565879362 551798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, definitely not < 1565879369 158305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just a general SMT discussion < 1565879725 41741 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: your statements about *[*[...]*]* and *[*]*[*]* are correct < 1565879790 955135 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ok, I think that qualifies this as an esolang < 1565880106 444254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so instead of 1586 characters, I now have 22826 characters... < 1565880127 801394 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1565880161 353852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but it works again, and never uses r with arguments other than 0 and 1: http://paste.debian.net/1095871/ < 1565880254 678892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I even got the basic logic to work again, which I was a bit skeptical about at first) < 1565880427 838201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with a builtin swap it would be 4430 characters; there are 292 swaps in that code now.) < 1565880441 19704 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Olé, Olé, Olé! < 1565880472 632767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who cares... I'm sure this can be optimized quite a bit. < 1565880970 925080 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to put out a more proper release tomorrow. < 1565880977 131585 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1565881015 216849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1095873/ is a bit better, 15378 characters < 1565881219 763514 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565881449 524096 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric > 1565881461 646902 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Wagon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65522 5* 03Int-e 5* (+257) 10Put link here for future reference. < 1565881939 87918 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565882301 231709 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565882499 774551 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565882947 821969 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565883531 709759 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565884637 596447 :onon!~onon@unaffiliated/onon JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887008 112496 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565887044 533376 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887098 526371 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887153 212004 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565888617 203254 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565888914 778251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565889122 744904 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aidpyummdjtiazth QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565890657 258345 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565890803 407726 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1565890813 112503 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891047 637006 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565891049 749989 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891073 781847 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest < 1565891227 195361 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891248 748974 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891450 308183 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Client Quit < 1565892141 379968 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565892708 553877 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565892849 989517 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:84ec:ede9:5420:4aeb QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565893770 989220 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565894604 846147 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: thank you all < 1565895779 762056 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565895973 193480 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565896035 741894 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565896191 565392 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565896332 216256 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565896703 229786 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565896910 155180 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1565897391 67878 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565897402 303350 :diverger!~div@89.238.130.200 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565897930 626948 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1565898963 517020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65523&oldid=65490 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1) 10Undo revision 65490 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]]) Deadfish resets to 0 only at exactly 256, it's a required 'bug' < 1565899042 172245 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565899069 516773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565899103 763219 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ysaclist < 1565899104 491849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ysaclist: boily shachaf < 1565899112 982696 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Mc0ChHhlk < 1565899146 747224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: You YSAC? < 1565899151 812752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not on the list! < 1565899165 772606 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get notified by YouTube about it < 1565899208 675976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You gotta like, subscribe, click the little bell, and let us know what you think in 04t08h09e 11c12o13m04m08e09n11t12s 13b04e08l09o11w. < 1565899320 834897 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of obnoxious how every channel has to ask people to click the bell because the assumption is that they don't know how to use YouTube's UI < 1565899397 805124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's the assumption. < 1565899408 17806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assumption is only that if you tell people to do it, they'll do it more than if you don't. < 1565899492 932050 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, but the problem that caused this is that YouTube's "Home" page doesn't show every video from your subscriptions, and instead shows a bunch of random crap instead. You have to go to "Subscriptions" if you want to see all the videos from the channels you're subscribed to. < 1565899523 221321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that YouTube hates you and wants you to suffer. < 1565899526 592913 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least if you have the notification bell clicked, you'll get a notification, and I'm not sure but maybe it helps those videos appear on "Home" as well. < 1565899542 437965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather they don't care about you and want to extract the maximum possible 04e08n09g11a12g13e04m08e09n11t out of you. < 1565899730 967738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: click on the thumbs up too. if we get four thousand thumbs up on this video, we'll do a special one next week. < 1565899764 390575 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :👍 < 1565900345 620925 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565900528 610159 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565900529 861269 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1565900596 63351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 👍 < 1565900597 309160 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F44D THUMBS UP SIGN] < 1565900601 762428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1565900619 223667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Are you awake at all times? < 1565900641 503501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been awake at all times modulo 24, I think. < 1565900655 738704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(24h that is) < 1565901157 37244 :divergence!~div@92.119.176.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903466 800482 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903771 43931 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgzeuntkzzdsoccd JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903927 78989 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565904456 63921 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565904858 70065 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565904861 295592 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565905125 577454 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1565906032 960371 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d JOIN :#esoteric < 1565906291 975179 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565906415 373112 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1565906676 585702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1565907169 675949 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Black14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65524&oldid=55554 5* 03ZM 5* (+4) 10/* Golly */ Wright's GitHub profile changed < 1565907495 216367 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565908063 563724 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1565908321 996043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565908955 284367 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565910434 516240 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565910603 214068 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565911000 492824 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PART :#esoteric < 1565911052 206974 :catern!~catern@catern.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911118 483770 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1565911169 19716 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1565911706 850649 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism. < 1565911772 640449 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911905 760512 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911989 195825 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Client Quit < 1565912376 786928 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565912643 755936 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds