< 1565308981 557717 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I have left turning and right turning. I've implemented... < 1565308985 762511 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Universal Turning Machine. < 1565309008 915740 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's capable of facing any direction that any turning machine can face. < 1565309294 567290 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1565310535 919773 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, shoot, I might be nearly done implementing my rule. I think I have enough stuff to make an almost-replicator now. < 1565311934 297959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What features is that that ALGOL 68 has and is not present in many or any modern languages? > 1565315757 366365 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65389&oldid=65388 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+313) 10Ask User: A for info on String Compression < 1565315855 749402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ALGOL_68_and_C%2B%2B talks about some features < 1565315878 39949 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think distinguishing values from memory locations is pretty unusual. < 1565316057 204373 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565316331 245421 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565316991 665834 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the features seem like good. Some seem like should be implemented by macros instead, perhaps. < 1565318277 991904 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-alclzwgawtunnogg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565318514 775503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a implementation of Haskell in JavaScript that can interface Haskell codes with JavaScript codes? < 1565318975 427736 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dang, I successfully built an almost-replicator. < 1565319013 356111 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I can upload some pictures. < 1565319018 257742 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before replication: < 1565319035 803334 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uploaded an image: image.png (82KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/jCTRLEizSoOEpqnHMyfvfNFQ >
< 1565319073 143872 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :After replication: < 1565319076 670405 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uploaded an image: image.png (137KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/pNIJWOGhAgTGjPJQkIAUumtf >
< 1565319184 818345 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this is essentially a Langton's loop... more or less. < 1565319217 71586 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The genome consists of five segments, separated by orange signals. < 1565319364 426079 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segment 1 extends the construction arm and puts filter data along it using teal and cyan signals. Segment 2 simply extends forward a bunch of times using cyan segments. Segment 3 makes a single left turn, then moves forward 5 times. Segment 4 turns left, moves forward 4 times, and turns left again. Segment 5 turns right, moves forward 5 times, and turns right again. < 1565319485 109573 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ummmm, a video would make this a lot clearer. Maybe. < 1565320012 928127 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565320048 991362 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ede9:f667:a65d:8a2c JOIN :#esoteric < 1565321055 973601 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, have a very smol animated GIF which shows how it works. < 1565321066 477796 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uploaded an image: radiator2.mc-2.gif (383KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ubOayEqlZPdhljpZLpbVdZCe >
< 1565321149 182191 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first segment writes a data tape along the construction arm. That data tape is then read in order to determine which segments of the program to pass through to the daughter, and which segments to suppress. < 1565321191 909505 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the mother creates a near-copy of itself, and then sends its complete genome into the daughter, neither the mother nor the daughter is capable of reproducing afterwards. < 1565324219 525111 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am getting the impression that there are multiple versions of Retroforth, mostly unrelated except in name and creator < 1565325146 786540 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know about compiling LLVM into new targets? < 1565325403 703126 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awezoome did a Pachelbel Canon in D < 1565325407 749222 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Awezoom < 1565325446 78583 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://modarchive.org/module.php?34369 < 1565325527 662635 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canon of the Three Stars? < 1565325730 855708 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m], huh, Mirek's cellebration came with Langton's < 1565325751 196290 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes with a lot of things < 1565325792 681695 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or something similar. The website doesn't say Langton's, hmm) < 1565325924 201175 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Langton's < 1565325944 341183 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mirekw.com/ca/rullex_udll.html#DNA < 1565326102 646888 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/ead48728917153cb8fe2c2c2221f2e75 < 1565326135 766159 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565327425 873342 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it should be "pretty easy" for me to implement full self-replication in my CA. < 1565327459 513927 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just imitate exactly what Langton's Loops does. < 1565327543 601349 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd also like to try to think of a better way. > 1565329953 994418 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65390&oldid=65389 5* 03A 5* (+290) 10/* Concern */ < 1565330032 251693 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1565333215 785389 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565333462 237184 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I am happy to say that I was wrong a few days ago. It does in fact appear possible to build arbitrary control structures directly in a second-order concatenative language. < 1565334357 336910 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have an esolang around this soon. Maybe not today though. < 1565334705 937798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you have a viable definition of the concept? I imagine "concatenative" translates to composition of functions, and second-order means that those functions have shape (p -> q) -> (p -> q) for some (non-functional, but perhaps algebraic) types p and q? < 1565334798 636069 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Basically exactly that, yes. < 1565334810 978705 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and p == q. < 1565334818 768391 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Program states to program states" < 1565334839 251985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They happen to be stacks on unbounded integers in the esolang. < 1565334841 850114 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of < 1565334997 333183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can always replace (p -> q) by ((p,q) -> (p,q)) :) < 1565335372 670861 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565335440 441406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, but I guess you have an informal naturality condition in there as well... something that prevents the translation of, say } (end of block) to embed a full interpreter of your language... < 1565335555 423351 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565335607 942302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Otherwise we can just enter a "recording" program state on encountering the first '{', collect the program source including nested '{','}' pairs, and execute it upong the final '}', possibly in a loop.) < 1565335806 579031 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes. Or if the function being composed can be examined, } could examine it and look for the { and copy the contents -- basically equivalent to what you just said. < 1565335845 844965 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my use of "directly" is trying to suggest that the program doesn't have to examine itself like this. < 1565335914 642672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Functions aren't ordinarily considered something you can examine the structure of, but... you could just say you're concatenating a monoid and later on you'll interpret it so for now you could examine it. Or something.) < 1565338105 785171 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr. I think I have to downgrade "arbitrary" to "More arbitrary than I thought, but not totally arbitrary" < 1565338442 735995 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565338534 908773 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565338998 858065 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565344298 631712 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with shachaf that exceptions can be kind of awful. But handling possible error returns in every single place a function is called (and every place *that* function is called etc) is also awful. < 1565344315 692422 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think of them as "non-local exits" they don't seem as bad. < 1565344333 282016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions are an unusual kind of non-local exit because they don't specify where the exit goes to. < 1565344345 345646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to setjmp or continuations or whatever. < 1565344539 298187 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to think about where they're catched. The type of exception usually suggests some kind of interface, or at least convention, for where it should be catched. But it's very difficult to formalize it, and raising exceptions at every opportunity makes it that much harder. < 1565344567 449560 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, seriously, `car` in Scheme can throw. `[]` in Python can throw. < 1565344572 439807 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is 'try' like capturing a continuation and then assigning it to a dynamically-scoped variable? < 1565344931 750651 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often (sorry, just ranting here) I catch an exception only to throw a different exception. I've done this enough that in my head I call this the "exception translation antipattern". < 1565344990 342721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, I think it's a bit like a dynamic vs. lexical scope thing. < 1565345021 733147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I started writing a bit about error handling at http://slbkbs.org/tmp/5.error.handling.txt though I never finished it. < 1565345127 963869 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's attempt to build an effect system around exceptions feels like an attempt to make it more like lexical scope. Thing is, Java programmers tell me they hate it and they just end up using unchecked exceptions instead. < 1565345153 402396 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Will give it a look, thx < 1565345167 866946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Later I found out that Zig has almost the same system I came up with. < 1565345207 176310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checked exceptions doesn't seem like the same sort of thing. < 1565345288 669003 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I raise X I want to know that I've been called by someone that is prepared to catch X" sounds, okay maybe not "lexical", but a lot less "dynamic" in scope < 1565345315 900276 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"someone", there I go personifying things again. Dijkstra would not approve < 1565345358 608287 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with personifying things? < 1565345412 920897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions try to do a lot of things and they don't seem to do any of them that well. < 1565345437 742105 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to find the note where he blames a lot of problems in software on people's tendency to anthropomoriphize it < 1565345441 862384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should never anthropomize computers. They hate it when you do that. < 1565345462 393667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write "foo() raises XError { bar(); vaz(); }" and I expect vaz to fail with XError, it becomes invisible to me that bar might also do that. < 1565345482 594276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*antropomorphize < 1565345502 241233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1565345514 285092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[second correction elided] < 1565345537 739064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not antwerpomorphize the dutch hth < 1565345778 962792 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html < 1565345800 294657 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My next linguistical suggestion is more rigorous. It is to fight the "if-this-guy-wants-to-talk-to-that-guy" syndrome: *never* refer to parts of programs or pieces of equipment in an anthropomorphic terminology, nor allow your students to do so." < 1565345828 334997 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1565345874 956960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about "if you give me an epsilon I give you a delta" < 1565345878 816343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/W/w/ < 1565345891 435942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I acknowledge that Dijkstra held opinions, I don't necessarily agree with them, nor always understand the reasons for them < 1565345899 565685 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what if I don't give you an epsilon < 1565345920 144391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you have to, sorry < 1565345923 691914 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1565345929 821146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be really small < 1565345932 864198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :as small as you like < 1565345972 390310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me, I have an ill-formed question about models of computation that I don't remember whether I asked in here before. < 1565345989 397458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: meh I think of programs as actors that modify some virtual world... personification is just a tiny step further. > 1565346032 969978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Foo machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65391 5* 03A 5* (+1670) 10Created page with "[[Foo machine]] is a hypothetical machine created by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/189572/does-this-foo-machine-halt Leo Tenenbaum] in order to demonstrate tha..." < 1565346041 450426 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also allow "worlds" to be terribly abstract) < 1565346054 700688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some facts, like "seemingly impossible functional programs" (equality of total predicates over infinite streams of bits is decidable, etc.) and the fact that integration is computable, that seem pretty mysterious at first when you look at them from the standard perspective. > 1565346058 366221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Foo machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65392&oldid=65391 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10 < 1565346069 341996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even if they don't seem mysterious, the implementation details tend to be fairly convoluted. < 1565346121 597899 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact the actual idea of the implementation is very simple so it's annoying that it has to be expressed the way it does. < 1565346176 870169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd much rather see e.g. the integration thing described as an explicit non-nested dialog between two parties. < 1565346198 43289 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565346208 618403 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1565346220 151735 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1565346230 129820 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: can you give an example of that? < 1565346239 380672 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe for impossible functional programs < 1565346244 274106 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that expressed as a dialog? < 1565346245 565035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like, we have a single communication channel, and you can send me questions about the function, and I can ask you questions about the arguments, and so on. < 1565346268 572387 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :these sorts of things are also v. important in complexity theory and cryptography, of course < 1565346272 487509 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arthur-merlin classes, etc < 1565346285 349310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Let's see, what are the existing ways of expressing it? < 1565346286 286337 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/ < 1565346296 97041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1565346302 233646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know two ways which are kind of different. < 1565346306 703316 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I've seen the article; I was wondering specifically how to express it as a dialog < 1565346312 870482 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also I don't recall how any of it works at all < 1565346341 553405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll give a simpler version of it than the one in that post so we can talk about how it works. < 1565346365 4029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Conat = Z | S Conat is either a natural number or infinity (disallowing bottoms). < 1565346426 171660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :find :: (Conat -> Bool) -> Conat is a function that either returns the smallest conat that matches the predicate, if one exists, or returns infinity. < 1565346464 473615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :find pred = if pred Z then Z else S (find (pred . S)) < 1565346497 634311 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This function works by asking pred Z, pred (S Z), pred (S (S Z)), etc., and outputting a single S each time it gets a no answer. < 1565346509 744452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1565346532 972442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can use "exists pred = pred (find pred)" to see if any conat matches the predicate. < 1565346566 87709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since pred is total, this is guaranteed to give an answer, and pred will only ask for some finite prefix of your conat. < 1565346592 350121 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pred is total by assumption? < 1565346605 208317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, this whole thing only works for total predicates. < 1565346619 93441 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Is this all lead-up to your ill-formed question? < 1565346627 756349 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Totality is a very strong condition here.) < 1565346628 574698 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c I'm a bit lost < 1565346653 142535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, now I'm just explaining this thing because it's neat, to discuss other ways of framing it. < 1565346702 881897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say, you're my counterparty, and you give me a predicate, call it p. I can ask p questions by passing you a handle to a conat, call it n. < 1565346711 404015 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can send me questions about n, and so on. < 1565346783 783129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the end the dialog between us will look like "<- here's p, -> here's n, <- is n > 0?, -> yes, <- is n > 1?, -> no", etc. < 1565346828 537126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a flat thing rather than a sneaky recursive structured thing. "totality" means that you'll only ask me a finite number of questions about n, and I can just look at the questions and see what the largest number you asked about is. < 1565346896 635608 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorely tempted to claim all flat things are recursively structured (you just can't usually see the recursion because it's VERY sneaky) < 1565346945 489374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, you can specify things with recursive structure. < 1565346955 159005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think almost everyone who sees "seemingly impossible functional programs" is confused at first. < 1565346982 974811 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a wonderful impure way to do the ((Nat -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Nat -> Bool thing... you're given an interrogator (Nat -> Bool) -> Bool that interrogates a subject Nat -> Bool and comes up with a boolean answer in finite time. So you send in subjects that remember the questions they were asked... the first question will always be the same, the second depends on the first, and so on; so you... < 1565346988 963708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...can reconstruct the whole tree of question this way. The mind-boggling thing is that you can do basically the same thing in a pure function. < 1565346999 67170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I can tell them is, "imagine you pass me a Turing machine that specifies the predicate. Then I pass that machine a Turing machine that specifies a conatural, and I can simulate it to see what it does, and so on" < 1565347021 293970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think we were just typing a similar kind of thing there. < 1565347046 799204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is yet another model of computation. < 1565347101 370135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd like to see something that makes the dialog explicit. There are only two parties, the exists player and the forall player or whatever you call them. < 1565347114 3899 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: on random graphs => I was thinking you should use something like the delaunay triangulation of the poisson process ("http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html") to get a planar grid of cells that is isotropic < 1565347114 305840 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only you'd probably have to modify it somewhat to make the degree bounded, perhaps by turning it to 3-regular by replacing each node by a loop < 1565347131 34266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write "((a -> b) -> c) -> d" it doesn't change the fact that b/d are one player's and a/c are the other's. < 1565347193 167172 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "I've never even thought about cellular automata on non-planar graphs." => wait really? because Game of Life uses king neighbourhood, and that's not planar < 1565347211 663392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe I meant something stronger than non-planar. < 1565347214 769850 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, so it's not < 1565347233 895796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about non-euclidean geometry < 1565347300 78299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part of the point is, if you say "forall epsilon, exists delta, forall x, ...", the person making the epsilon and x decisions is the same person. < 1565347337 431081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To require them to phrase it in terms of "manufacturing a special sub-person who can make x-choices and passing that sub-person to you" is a complex and bizarre restriction. < 1565347437 794332 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something but tbh I've never understood what corecursion is so I'll not say anything < 1565347455 51534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehrenfeucht–Fraïssé games for programming, hmm. < 1565347482 511523 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: looks interesting < 1565347515 328917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a separate programming thing where APIs that are defined in terms of callbacks are sometimes much more awkward than APIs that aren't, because they restrict your flow control to happening in particular ways. < 1565347526 657364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Rather than just passing events or something.) < 1565347541 10776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control flow. That one. < 1565347608 425535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think there are probably versions of this that aren't as explicitly about corecursive structures, though maybe it's always implicit in some way. < 1565347626 54939 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, in the sense that functions are codata rather than data, or something.) < 1565347791 858132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one of the things that's usually confusing about seemingly-impossible-functional-programs: < 1565347834 208017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People say "I don't see how it's possible, because I can ask pred infinity, and I can ask pred 0,1,2,3,...,n, but that doesn't tell me anything about pred n+1" < 1565347874 200711 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is that you have to pass pred a conatural that's itself expressed in terms of pred. That's the sneaky recursive thing I was referring to. < 1565347901 554843 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... am confuse < 1565347963 850872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which part? < 1565347965 217034 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "I catch an exception only to throw a different exception. I've done this enough that in my head I call this the "exception translation antipattern"." => you mean, you make your program print sensible error messages that tell what the user did wrong, rather than some nonsense about where the error was detected like "NullPtrException in me < 1565347965 569183 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssage.java:418", and it's an antipattern because it hurts your job security if other people can use your program? < 1565348018 726227 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf "What's wrong with personifying things?" => the computers don't like when you do that < 1565348021 972633 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's an antipattern only in the sense that different modules define sets of exceptions that are only meaningful to them, and any time an exception crosses those boundaries, you have to "translate" it to make it meaningul < 1565348032 533638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: You know perfectly well that's not what cpressey mean and you're not being helpful or nice when you phrase it like that. < 1565348037 801098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, int-e already asid that < 1565348074 307867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...That was probably an overstatement to something that was a harmless joke. < 1565348075 914921 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: By the part where people find this thing about Cantor space any more impossible than, say, the claim that there is no greatest even integer < 1565348118 830159 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565348119 924769 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I just universally quantified over an infinite set there in claiming that, pretty spooky huh < 1565348141 554099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean you don't see why people are confused? < 1565348165 119102 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, people are confused about a lot of things. < 1565348190 201710 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a computational question so I don't the connection to there being no greatest even integer. < 1565348232 334770 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A big problem here is that I don't know what a conatural is < 1565348255 111422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's an element of the one-point compactification of the naturals, if that helps. < 1565348263 249499 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. < 1565348269 426847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not: It's a monotonic function : N -> 2 < 1565348272 971171 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you know how inductive codata works? < 1565348294 583339 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there sure are a lot of ways to define the same thing, eh? < 1565348300 357917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: It's a Turing machine that either prints some number of 1s and then halts, or keeps printing 1s forever. < 1565348310 697717 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are only two parties, the exists player and the forall player or whatever you call them." => I heard they were called Adam and Eve, Adam for the forall quantifiers and Eve for the exists quantifiers < 1565348328 281474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀dam and ∃ve < 1565348328 323662 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but it will always print the next 1 within finite time, right? < 1565348344 530525 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: No, I don't. < 1565348346 846894 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1565348359 394720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes. < 1565348377 218229 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well do you know what people mean when they say haskell has 'infinite data structures'? < 1565348387 517498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i I guess cpressey only learned the counterexamples and not the topology < 1565348423 58747 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, I know what they *mean*, but I try not to use that term myself, if that makes sense < 1565348436 85305 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you want a better term you could call them codata ;) < 1565348448 853408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell people are often very confusil about which things are data and which things are codata. < 1565348470 935406 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell all 'data' structures are codata < 1565348488 723289 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write data Nat = Z | S Nat < 1565348497 16196 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you actually defined conats < 1565348514 884681 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can construct the value S (S (S (S ... to infinity < 1565348529 926635 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why people are surprised that you can apply one lazy thing to another lazy thing and conclude it will be true for all instances of the thing < 1565348553 531833 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every integer is either odd or even" < 1565348553 801929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Wait, which lazy thing? < 1565348558 682953 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: co-thing < 1565348566 988414 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you prefer that terminology < 1565348582 429599 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are confused because they can't think of an actual algorithm to compute it. < 1565348606 331292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the algorithm is obvious. < 1565348632 389927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or even the fact that it could exist.) < 1565348652 10471 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking whether a total predicate holds for all elements of a set doesn't even sound like an algorithm to me, it sounds like a proof < 1565348660 420629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proofs are programs, thanks Curry, thanks Howard < 1565348683 450590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm not even sure whether we're talking about the same thing. < 1565348708 492902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :forAll :: (Conat -> Bool) -> Bool is certainly not a proof that Bool is inhabited. < 1565348713 46755 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc Ints < 1565348713 401278 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥." < 1565348738 78390 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well, I'm probably talking nonsense < 1565348750 16724 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it doesn't surprise *me*, and I'd like to know why that is < 1565348772 125352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too! < 1565348810 553347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The claim is: I can write a program that takes a predicate (over the conaturals, or the Cantor set), and decides whether the predicate holds for every input. < 1565348834 951416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set is infinite, so you can't just try every input. < 1565348864 53563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying it's not surprising which probably means you have some model for what inputs can be exhaustively searched by an algorithm, and you think these things match that model? < 1565348946 995030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, obviously it's not surprising to me now because I know how it works, but it was surprising to me until I thought about it carefully.) < 1565348970 206581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I used to be a snarky little shit, eh? < 1565348970 545638 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can write a proof that takes a predicate, shows that it holds for a base case, and shows that it holds for succ(x) if it holds for x, and conclude from that that it holds for all x. Does that surprise you? < 1565348974 866490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I still do, but I used to, too. > 1565348991 359883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Binerdy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65393&oldid=49903 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+84) 10+CATs < 1565349000 41561 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the difference? < 1565349003 915707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, the claim I'm making holds for the conaturals (with infinity), but it certainly doesn't hold for the naturals. > 1565349021 58290 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07English Binerdy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65394&oldid=55887 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+72) 10 < 1565349040 384479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if the thing you're saying works for the naturals then it's probably not the thing I'm talking about. < 1565349050 411230 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not thinking about a thing! < 1565349075 510627 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, maybe I was extrapolating too far. Induction doesn't surprise me. < 1565349086 173458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Induction on the naturals, I mean.) > 1565349137 6679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Darmok14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65395&oldid=43237 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+37) 10+WIP +CATs > 1565349160 13727 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65396&oldid=63187 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10+CAT languages > 1565349187 244530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mishmash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65397&oldid=54590 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10+WIP < 1565349196 598481 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cantor space may be infinite, but it has a finite description. How do you traverse an infinite thing, whether in a proof or in a program? By traversing all cases of its finite description. < 1565349231 616512 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it doesn't surprise me. < 1565349245 353025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But N also has a finite description. > 1565349249 749014 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07IBNIZ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65398&oldid=40608 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+10) 10 < 1565349253 375198 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the letter N? < 1565349257 168519 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naturals. < 1565349268 658376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℕ < 1565349276 703651 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's why I can say things like "Every integer is either odd or even" without testing every integer < 1565349321 192486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but you can't write a program that takes an arbitrary predicate, such as "is either odd or even", and tells you whether every natural satisfies it. < 1565349329 657875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can prove it for that specific predicate. < 1565349357 399906 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I can certainly write a program that tries to prove it or refute it... < 1565349368 768289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and the program might not halt. < 1565349379 830157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas for the Cantor set you can write the program, and it'll always halt and give you the correct answer. < 1565349402 545731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming the predicate itself is total.) < 1565349431 497556 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program will halt if certain conditions are met. The predicate must be total. The infinite set must have some properties that (presumably) being Cantor space gives it. Not surprising. > 1565349445 93116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B-tapemark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65399&oldid=38916 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+68) 10 < 1565349482 429603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's something surprising, it's that being Cantor space, gives it that property. > 1565349490 502948 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pieces14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65400&oldid=13796 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+12) 10 < 1565349495 896032 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it doesn't hold for some other spaces. < 1565349499 466864 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the surprising thing. < 1565349514 80595 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to me that's something surprising about Cantor space, not the program! > 1565349524 844663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hyperfunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65401&oldid=46445 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10 < 1565349528 939482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "exhaustive search of the Cantor set is possible" is the surprising statement here. < 1565349547 117981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program shows that it's possible. < 1565349580 658545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what it's worth I still don't know exactly what the properties that make it possible are. < 1565349613 306796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has to do with compactness, but I'm not sure exactly what the computational content of compactness is, and how it's being used here. I only know how to write it for specific compact spaces. < 1565349643 493577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like "whether this fact is surprising or not" is quite a detour from the original question anyway. < 1565349663 523639 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't know much topology, so I guess I don't officially know if it should surprise me or not? < 1565349701 360975 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite resigned to the fact that there are a lot of topologies with weird properties, so when someone says "Hey! Did you know that you can show X for all of Cantor space" it's not like I'm "REALLY?" < 1565349722 36605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What was the original question < 1565349727 248470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ill-formed one. < 1565349753 741116 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The one where you wanted to tail-call optimize Arthur and Merlin? < 1565349816 699754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I? < 1565349837 53074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Arthur-Merlin thing seems to be about computationally bounded agents whereas I was just talking about computability for now. < 1565349857 586114 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about one computationally bound agent, Arthur, and one unbound, Merlin < 1565349860 615117 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Something like that? You wanted to flatten the conversation between two parties in... one of those things. < 1565349876 699865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm curious about flattened conversations, sure. < 1565349894 666614 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are twisted versions with more than one Merlins < 1565349901 306776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you find it surprising that integration of computable functions on computable reals is computable? < 1565350036 769508 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ehm. Not sure. The thing that surprises me there is, you have a function and its range is computable reals and you can integrate it at all? < 1565350043 551360 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*only the computable reals < 1565350067 737154 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that, like, discontinuous? < 1565350106 107372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit like saying you have a function on the rationals and you can integrate it. I suck at analysis, but I didn't think that was even valid? < 1565350112 821893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you can say it's a function that works on every real. < 1565350126 908988 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't distinguish the computable ones from the uncomputable ones, of course. < 1565350189 384777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I already don't understand why algebraic complex numbers form a field, despite that I was supposedly taught enough Galois theory in the university courses to have to know the proof. < 1565350201 239414 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computable numbers are way worse than that, they have very surprising properties that are impossible to guess. < 1565350236 471463 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And like lots of different definitions that sound similar but are actually different, so you have to be careful what you use in which statement. < 1565350276 324194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mumbles something about the effective topos.
< 1565350305 50597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like nothing is materially different if you just say "reals" instead. If you have an oracle for an uncomputable real, your computable function will work fine with it. < 1565350320 908624 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Wait, what's hard about those things? Where do you get stuck? < 1565350356 92110 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are you just saying that you haven't thought about it recently enough to know for sure < 1565350377 312002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Hale < 1565350382 253662 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, I'll rephrase. I'm surprised that integration of *any* functions is possible *at all*. < 1565350387 471079 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: for the computable reals, I definitely haven't tought much about it ever, because it seems so theoretical and I never really needed it < 1565350388 211991 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like magic < 1565350388 366377 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hellochaf < 1565350394 678623 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :End of story < 1565350441 38309 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do care a little about the practical side, as in specific algorithms that are either useful in real life or close to useful, but not the abstract stuff < 1565350443 763462 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: To say that computable reals are a field is basically saying that the field operations are computable. < 1565350449 406573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's reasonable enough. < 1565350490 163142 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: yeah, that in particular isn't too hard, but there are other questions you can ask < 1565350722 772099 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Gabriel's Horn surprises me. < 1565350752 803664 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't doubt that integration is a valid concept and all, but, damn. < 1565350925 932025 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the algebraic numbers, I think I understood enough about that at one point (even if I didn't understand all of Galois theory), but has forgotten how it works since. < 1565350988 572803 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These days, all that stuff I hear from algebraic geometers on the internet just scares me away. < 1565352867 491592 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565354611 658 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iznunuulqtyxgjil JOIN :#esoteric < 1565357007 593024 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could start talking about codata, but if I start it could just go on forever < 1565357070 300720 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I daresay I have distinct finitist and formalist leanings > 1565358149 99428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Logical/Interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65402&oldid=53265 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10 > 1565358228 636324 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07QuineLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65403&oldid=59404 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10 > 1565360181 890579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65404&oldid=64910 5* 03A 5* (+60) 10/* Grin */ > 1565360216 189820 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65405&oldid=65404 5* 03A 5* (+28) 10/* Gulp */ < 1565361017 820283 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565361530 443757 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565361823 416232 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Quit: kthxbye < 1565362639 960061 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565362704 231693 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1565362862 637775 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565363243 229351 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565363436 830226 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565363953 944162 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565364106 207116 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1565364193 568537 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ZSwifty 5* 10New user account < 1565364202 226774 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565364404 878369 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565366154 440108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565366171 517565 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565366181 942290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Java's attempt to build an effect system around exceptions feels like an attempt to make it more like lexical scope. Thing is, Java programmers tell me they hate it and they just end up using unchecked exceptions instead. ← this problem arises in Java almost entirely as a result of checked exceptions that you know statically can never occur, but still exist in the signature < 1565366386 141959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple example is «string.getBytes("UTF-8")» which according to the type system can throw a checked exception (because the type system can't see that "UTF-8" is a literal string and thus always names a valid character set), the checked exception would be necessary if the "UTF-8" were a string specified by the user < 1565366474 481279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, «string.getBytes(Charset.forName("UTF-8"))» doesn't throw checked exceptions (because for some reason, Charset#forName uses an unchecked exception if the charset name is unrecognised) < 1565366526 790033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and «string.getBytes(StandardCharsets.UTF_8)» is a workaround for the whole mess that only became available fairly recently < 1565366548 453020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any of this is an argument against checked exceptions, but I do think it's an argument for doing constant-folding before type-checking < 1565366604 173150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, this issue isn't specific to checked exceptions, it happens with other forms of error handling too < 1565366627 538349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in Rust you need to explicitly convert errors to panics with «unwrap» in cases where you know they can't possibly happen, and yet that removes some of the static safety guarantees of the language < 1565366674 618245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after programming in Java seriously for months, I ended up in favour of checked exceptions (or at least, explicitly enumerated error cases) and against the way Java treates checked exceptions < 1565366750 211640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I see very little difference between Java and Rust error handling, the only difference is a minor syntactic one (Java propagates exceptions by default and requires try…catch to convert them to return values, Rust treats errors as return values by default and requires ? to propagate them, but in either case the only difference is the syntax at the call site) < 1565366751 224713 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565366941 233205 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565367153 615910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp squirrel < 1565367155 205066 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic squirrel feeder:Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. \ bureaucracy:Bureaucracy (from French bureau, "burrow") is a political system in which squirrels rule the nation, and burrow their nuts. \ nutella:Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders. \ squirrel:A squirrel is a small nut-harvesting unit frequently deployed all over the worl < 1565367186 210254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? squirrel < 1565367187 189184 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A squirrel is a small nut-harvesting unit frequently deployed all over the world. They are popular due to their usefulness in distracting dogs. < 1565367204 271400 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? automatic squirrel < 1565367205 292638 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic squirrel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565367314 367166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I didn't expect to get *two* T-ventions. < 1565367557 149941 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: automatic squirrel feeders were the first I believe < 1565367561 184371 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't seen nutella before < 1565367761 694809 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've seen the spread, just not the wisdom entry < 1565367770 676458 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a huge fan < 1565367780 81062 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of the spread, the wisdom entry's OK) < 1565367811 435702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1565368186 225494 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AutoColdKey14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65406 5* 03A 5* (+210) 10Midnight creation > 1565368393 855332 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AutoColdKey14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65407&oldid=65406 5* 03A 5* (+123) 10Now it is a stub. < 1565368492 142578 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565368545 549275 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1565368576 188238 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do < 1565368663 207326 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565368996 297587 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iznunuulqtyxgjil QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565369046 779186 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1565369136 757613 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mvgifkxidxodrkvx QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565369140 944733 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxraelzmjvobknii QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565369147 82283 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cmxykylbzvixyrym QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565369149 802480 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1565369273 360195 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1565369635 651950 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ivusnbormtkzsizv JOIN :#esoteric > 1565370423 932060 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EPARM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65408&oldid=16949 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10/* More ideas */ +CAT < 1565370680 675188 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmfyclzdfvohorkx JOIN :#esoteric < 1565370744 773086 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565370770 948061 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565370973 709935 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ycazwzptahgqxucs JOIN :#esoteric < 1565370973 997585 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs JOIN :#esoteric < 1565370982 631138 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cffvqwftheblxqww JOIN :#esoteric < 1565371243 196798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: Look if you want to strike up a conversation here, you need to try a little harder. Drop an interesting idea (programming language or computation related preferrably), be articulate, and be prepared to wait minutes to hours for a reply (if any). What you're doing is making you come across stupid and obnoxious. < 1565371479 94942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565371598 83019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1174 < 1565371598 827970 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1174: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1565371610 762388 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1565371702 293261 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard this idea from another person: an eso where you can change the speed delta but not overwrite it < 1565371712 281567 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't turn a right angle straight away < 1565371720 406863 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to tuuuurn slowly until you get to face right < 1565371743 854977 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main storage of this eso *is* the speed delta (velocity) < 1565371754 32151 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a sort of tape < 1565371826 165091 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the initial tape is set to (0,0)(1,0)(0,0) where the first set of 0,0 is position and all the ones after (1,0) are speed delta deltas < 1565371896 601123 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an integer called the "meta-level" of the delta you are manipulating < 1565371904 412489 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the greek letter delta increases it, _ decreases it < 1565371944 730882 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :to say again: this idea is not mine, it originated from reconcyl#4042 on the esolangs discord < 1565372003 867778 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a p cool idea < 1565372299 192662 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565372551 682388 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565372699 987272 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565372950 507613 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Client Quit < 1565375069 388338 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565375295 817975 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565375295 906066 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565375595 849901 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1565376051 560363 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565376227 168336 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565378786 103716 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? morphology < 1565378787 230132 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it. < 1565378797 264415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? second wisdom < 1565378798 332849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second wisdom is that wisdom can never be complete or consistent. < 1565379111 996680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`q corollary < 1565379112 617201 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :57) ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" < 1565380339 276427 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565380890 366350 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565381563 511116 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565381721 931766 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565381736 220800 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1565381812 823308 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glulx has a frame pointer, but it points to an address space that you cannot read from or write into. < 1565383995 983985 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmfyclzdfvohorkx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565384302 385201 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565384437 231120 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565384473 732653 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565384478 451491 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1565386210 418911 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cffvqwftheblxqww QUIT :Quit: Idle kick: User has been idle for 23+ days. < 1565388354 791396 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565388382 862469 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565389720 911976 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dooifelwmftwodau JOIN :#esoteric < 1565390541 286660 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565390760 855726 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565391213 868945 :Xunie!~Xunie@unaffiliated/xunie JOIN :#esoteric > 1565393806 763650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65409&oldid=65033 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+45) 10/* External Resources / Reference Implementation */ < 1565394539 836197 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric