< 1564617946 23286 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1564620274 680419 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it turns out writing machine code can be kind of tedious. > 1564623833 96280 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64877 5* 03A 5* (+1073) 10Created page with "[[Your Pillows]] are [[esoteric programming language]]s directly based off pillows. It is somehow influenced by [[Brace For Impact]] and [[Beatnik]]. ==Syntax of your pillows=..." > 1564624550 889768 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ummm...14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64878&oldid=59008 5* 03A 5* (+190) 10 < 1564624582 920615 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564624653 563687 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64879&oldid=64877 5* 03A 5* (+197) 10/* Instructions */ < 1564625081 153563 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564626900 401027 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1564626901 480508 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is int-e's job. < 1564627271 894150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The password of the month is surprising. < 1564627274 41932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is surprising. > 1564629695 270370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64880&oldid=64862 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+138) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564629829 698702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64881&oldid=64870 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+449) 10/* Technical Regarding Interpreter */ Python interpreter done! < 1564629992 619675 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfstbnbgqqrrvzyf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564634210 978204 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1564639889 930012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64882&oldid=64766 5* 03A 5* (-13424) 10Remove all of them; it is always visible in the page history. > 1564639931 695276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64883&oldid=64882 5* 03A 5* (+632) 10/* Blocked */ > 1564639964 806268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64884&oldid=64883 5* 03A 5* (+3) 10/* Game */ > 1564640061 698509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64885&oldid=64884 5* 03A 5* (-337) 10/* Game */ > 1564640633 221343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64886&oldid=64885 5* 03A 5* (+905) 10/* Game */ > 1564640649 284113 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64887&oldid=64886 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* One */ < 1564644848 362348 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564645027 72673 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564645040 989896 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564645082 790805 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564646341 554587 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564646710 636131 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564646730 690269 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564646969 667690 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64888&oldid=64887 5* 03A 5* (+1170) 10/* One */ > 1564647109 845206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64889&oldid=64888 5* 03A 5* (+24) 10/* Game */ < 1564648552 929507 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564648563 504826 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64890 5* 03A 5* (+1732) 10Created page with "[[Deadfish Joust]] is a [[deadfish]]-based game, consisting of two contestants who attempt to modify an accumulator to make the accumulator as close to their value as possib..." < 1564648784 481737 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1564648807 23868 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64891&oldid=64881 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 > 1564648876 408970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64892&oldid=64889 5* 03A 5* (-2414) 10/* Game (code golf in deadfish) */ > 1564649253 149055 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64893 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+208) 10Created page with "= Contest controller = I might try and make a simple offline controller in python. ~~~~" > 1564649775 802974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64894&oldid=64880 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+721) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564649845 585334 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64895&oldid=64891 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+40) 10 < 1564649953 823973 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. How is brainfuck not a concatenative language? < 1564650014 887181 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of taking a stack to a stack, each function takes (tape, control context) -> (tape, control context) < 1564650059 798732 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually see where this breaks down, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless) < 1564650372 381020 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF < 1564650442 455919 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Not sure. Maybe, a long time ago. < 1564650493 357942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to do anything interesting with control context in a concatenative language, do you need to support storing function values somehow in the state that your functions work on? < 1564650723 536054 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer is "yes" in some weak sense < 1564650746 930042 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is probably a lot of wiggle room in "somehow" < 1564650773 333093 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also some room in "interesting" < 1564650954 818377 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1564650979 212539 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even "concatenative" - I get the impression that a lot of concatenative languages are purely so < 1564650984 647308 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*aren't < 1564651401 68215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "second-order concatenative" - you have functions (stack -> stack), in monoids, but these monoids are embedded in an "outer" monoid where the functions are ((stack -> stack) -> (stack -> stack)) < 1564651438 934592 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure BF++ < 1564651707 841257 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make it "look concatenative" by having the inner monoids seperated by a single | character or something (rather than being enclosed in some kind of brackets, which seems more conventional) < 1564651735 932362 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :: and ; count as brackets, if you're Forth > 1564651840 11511 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64896&oldid=64894 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+349) 10 > 1564652655 882873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64897&oldid=64896 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+59) 10 < 1564652835 71446 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe there are two disjoint sets of characters, "inner" and "outer". > 1564652842 184020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64898&oldid=64893 5* 03A 5* (+171) 10 < 1564652861 344601 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The (stack -> stack) functions also need to... be stacked in a stack or something < 1564652881 928663 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1564652887 216946 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This might be worth working out > 1564652915 252830 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64899&oldid=64890 5* 03A 5* (+27) 10 > 1564653028 409613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64900&oldid=64796 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10/* Y */ > 1564653093 964015 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64901&oldid=64561 5* 03A 5* (+75) 10/* General languages */ > 1564653282 286233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64902&oldid=64899 5* 03A 5* (+294) 10 > 1564653467 274864 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64903&oldid=64902 5* 03A 5* (+166) 10 > 1564653567 455917 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64904&oldid=64903 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10/* Typing */ > 1564653801 339754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64905&oldid=64904 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Typing */ > 1564653899 394797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64906&oldid=64876 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+215) 10 < 1564653923 524183 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564653937 531188 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1564654176 139954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64907&oldid=64895 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+118) 10 < 1564654834 909060 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second-order functions don't need to be stacked, there just needs to be a second-order identity function that can be second-order composed with other second-order functions < 1564654882 112816 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is this related to higher dimensional category theory? < 1564654895 798119 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as you see an "outer" character (representing a second-order function) you take all the first-order functions that you have been collecting so far ("inner" characters) and make a second-order function out of it < 1564654926 29660 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: not to my knowledge < 1564654946 974726 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure someone could *make* it related to that if they tried hard enough < 1564655029 158074 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564655091 344960 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` card-by-name "$(ping)" < 1564655092 291131 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pongify \ U \ Instant \ Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Its controller creates a 3/3 green Ape creature token. \ PLC-U, C14-U > 1564655211 10110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64908&oldid=64907 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-65) 10 < 1564655375 751520 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monoid is a category with one object. Maybe this is a category with two objects. < 1564655407 731197 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be my bet, but I don't like category theory so I tend not to think in those terms. > 1564655639 540331 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64909 5* 03A 5* (+1381) 10Created page with "[[Smalllang]] is a joke [[esoteric programming language]] created in order to fullfill [[User:Hanzlu]]'s definition of a usable language, as it tries its best to make itself..." < 1564655741 707232 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it's kind of like a 2-monoid (by analogy with 2-category) < 1564656132 709324 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ``` cd wisdom; find -type f -printf "%s %p\n" | sort -n # shortest wisdoms < 1564656449 357346 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cemulate.github.io/the-mlab/ is just as good as the nLab as far as I'm concerned. < 1564657119 350013 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) > 1564657424 629986 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64910&oldid=64179 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+160) 10 < 1564657543 256407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits nak < 1564657545 16514 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän oerjän < 1564657552 642998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits output < 1564657554 350492 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän oerjän oerjän olsnër < 1564657561 804955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd. < 1564657567 27873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hwrl nak < 1564657569 28227 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/nak > 1564658470 599489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64911&oldid=64906 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+155) 10 > 1564658987 68702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64912&oldid=64901 5* 03A 5* (+50) 10 > 1564659037 430497 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64913&oldid=64909 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+454) 10 > 1564659078 130374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64914&oldid=64913 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-2) 10 < 1564659177 64840 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the category is just called 2; two objects a, b and a single non-identity arrow a -> b < 1564659226 184227 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *guess* that arrow corresponds to lifting a (S->S) into a ((S->S)->(S->S)) in this case < 1564659313 188605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless...? Maybe there are more arrows than these here < 1564659718 206072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmpf. I thought 2 has no arrow at all < 1564659724 863126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(non-identity) < 1564659751 962228 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there seems to be some controversy about that: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1227142 < 1564659761 429101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I care much. I regard category theory as unnecessary obfuscation. > 1564659783 464677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64915&oldid=64914 5* 03A 5* (+276) 10I can still use it to create an infinite loop. (Now I can't.) < 1564659807 967700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because the only way *I* can make sense of it is to translate everything back into concrete categories) < 1564659839 245367 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely prefer thinking in terms of algebraic structures myself > 1564659890 22095 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64916&oldid=64915 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1564659907 442490 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa7-175.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564659919 474975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that backtranslation stops working somewhere around natural transformations (probably still just fine) and adjoint functors :P < 1564660019 244661 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ever need them I know where to look for them < 1564660028 987844 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I will never, ever need them) < 1564660033 884061 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Famous last words) > 1564660050 660749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64917&oldid=64916 5* 03A 5* (+69) 10/* Interpreter */ Error handling < 1564660064 985259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As last words go, these have a good chance of being true at that point... < 1564660088 45670 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564660088 800747 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64918&oldid=64917 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1564660121 665542 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a6a-88.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564660121 856349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp wombat < 1564660123 386679 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564660209 342147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "Air? Where we're going we won't need ai--" ) < 1564660417 641078 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa7-175.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1564660454 754487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64919&oldid=64898 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* Contest controller */ This is indeed odd. < 1564660541 397815 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking there might need to be another arrow, because the result of all this concatenating is going to be a function ((S->S)->(S->S)) but you probably want to run it on some input data, which would be an S, not an (S->S). < 1564660582 166425 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd want to be able to lift and, uh. Forget? < 1564660610 597166 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you just lift the input instead < 1564660626 71555 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-bcee02-33.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564660662 36206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is this going, all linear languages are concatenative if you build the parser state into the semantics? < 1564660719 896205 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there was some such parody about that, claiming that x86 assembly was concatenative < 1564660836 999176 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think https://catseye.tc/article/List_of_Unfinished_Interesting_Esolangs#paneer is probably related to that < 1564660900 695785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. all you need is a call-with-current-input < 1564660938 801378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So tromp's BLC is a simple candidate. < 1564660948 884809 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't planning to go anywhere near that far with this idea, I just want a second-order concatenative language right now > 1564660998 834259 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64920&oldid=64918 5* 03A 5* (+29) 10/* Instructions */ > 1564661027 19206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64921&oldid=64920 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions */ > 1564661038 817180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BLC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64922 5* 03Int-e 5* (+36) 10add redirect for semi-common abbreviation < 1564661048 132730 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd still like to see a language that is based on SKI calculus, the way that unlambda is, but uses something like Haskell's IO to do interactive IO > 1564661136 492835 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64923&oldid=64921 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10/* Instructions */ < 1564661202 362856 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Would you be willing to settle for it being a DSL embedded in Haskell? < 1564661271 251996 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know, haskell being typed could be a problem. I'd like some basis of combinators (not necessarily SKI specifically) to be trivial to translate into it < 1564661289 301573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The point I had in mind with BLC is that it's specified with a binary stream as input; the program is parsed from that input and the remaining input is passed to that program, so it already has "call with current input" built in. < 1564661290 375299 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without getting type errors < 1564661292 343731 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a SKI interpreter in Haskell once but I've never been confident it's correct because I've never found a good collection of tests cases for SKI terms < 1564661341 584241 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, nobody writes actual programs for those < 1564661363 333638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps some of the ones from the unlambda quine competition could help, but they use side effects so depend on the order of evaluation < 1564661365 61028 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to occasionally < 1564661365 924492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, any concrete definition of (a) Kolmogorov complexity will probably have the same feature.) < 1564661401 745747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And I know I'm going off a tangent. < 1564661577 563802 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Maybe not really. Like a TM, you don't really *need* to have input. You start off writing the data you want, onto the tape (or in this case, with a function (S->S) that returns a constant S) < 1564661653 31184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not really good for information complexity... there's too much inherent redundancy in Turing Machines themselves. < 1564661657 982187 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was another tanget I was thinking about similar to this regarding infinite programs, and maybe Turing machines with fixed-length input tapes are not a bad idea < 1564661679 380822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're better off with just a string that you split into program and input. < 1564661726 30367 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Compared to embedding the input into the program, which may blow up depending on the model of computation.) < 1564661831 146887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean one of the properties that you want off Kolmogorov complexity is that the formalism you base it on only changes it by O(1). < 1564661901 347241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Formalism = a concrete model of computation, which should be Turing-complete.) < 1564662442 114526 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's to stop the program from treating the input as another program though < 1564663030 552958 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my thought was, the finite control of a TM is defined to be finite, so if you map your program to a TM, you know it's finite and that's fine. You can also map your program to a finite string and feed it as input to a TM, *but*... < 1564663076 161954 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...a TM reads its input from its tape, and its tape is *not* finite, so if you somehow put an infinite program there, it would not reject that. < 1564663096 538122 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I mean, if it does not ever stop reading that input, you can't really blame it. < 1564663140 477188 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that will happen. < 1564663284 371711 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really remember what the implications of this that I cared about were, now. < 1564663878 54262 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overall it has to do with "infinite programs" and whether you accept them or not. Is "the decimal expansion of sqrt(2)+sqrt(3)" an infinite program? < 1564663898 237917 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an algebraic number, I can communicate it finitely < 1564663917 45409 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564663921 977486 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the interpreter wants to compute decimal digits of it to find out what to do next, that's its perogative < 1564663942 601856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an infinite string with finite description complexity < 1564663952 381160 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: like most TMs < 1564663961 565507 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "most" < 1564663969 991572 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaitin's omega notwithstanding < 1564663974 348416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a type mismatch < 1564663989 108661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) TMs are finite. b) TMs are not strings. < 1564664019 333375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Chaitin only allows finite programs. < 1564664036 330250 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually when I write down a TM it's a string < 1564664064 492993 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUt I think there's some confusion here < 1564664092 633788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think we're in a corner where it's valuable to be more precise. < 1564664124 337895 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. You can identify TMs with their finite descriptions. You can also identify them with the (sometimes) infinite string they write on their tape when you run them. < 1564664181 192093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... the picture I have in mind is this: a) we have a Turing-complete model of computation. b) we have a prefix-free encoding of programs for that model. c) we consider strings p i where p is a program and i is the program's input. < 1564664234 881186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We also want all programs to be encoded so by König's lemma there are infinite strings that do not have a program as a prefix. Those are not infinite programs; they're just garbage :P < 1564664332 33721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And all this happens over some fixed finite alphabet. {0,1} is a neat choice.) > 1564664354 383100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64924&oldid=64908 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+119) 10 < 1564664368 877591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is glossing over details like the map from the strings p to programs being effectively computable...
< 1564664404 347858 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how would the latter work? there are different turing machines that write different strings when they get no input < 1564664437 978787 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... why am I yellow now? < 1564664509 9446 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see, I'm yellow in webchat, but still bluish gray in the esolangs.org logs < 1564664517 406174 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 NICK :lob_jonas < 1564664562 936846 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I only mean "for each TM you can look at the infinite string it produces" - I mean "sqrt(2)+sqrt(3)" and "sqrt(3)+sqrt(2)" generate the same infinite string of digits too < 1564664592 268388 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, but you said "identify" < 1564664595 15654 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given the infinite string, you don't know which of those finite strings produced it. < 1564664611 609379 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: fine, I didn't mean identify, I'm sorry < 1564664622 393723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, identifying TMs with their output lands you in Rice territory. < 1564664629 81352 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wa < 1564664640 81426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"associate"? < 1564664646 289530 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :->, not <-> < 1564664665 43392 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it matters because I don't think I'm talking about what int-e is talking about :) < 1564664668 32997 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer => or |> or |-> for that < 1564664677 399545 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but admittedly some programming languages abuse -> for this < 1564664688 196492 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Haskell is prudent enough to put a backslash before < 1564664694 598510 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> also works < 1564664744 72124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nobody wrote "associate"?? < 1564664755 73547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean except for you, and now me... < 1564664766 575470 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was trying to think of a word that would have been better for me to use, than "identify" < 1564664780 22832 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1564664801 328504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I probably wouldn't have objected to that :) < 1564665000 693895 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a sense, yhe only infinite programs you need to worry about, are those that are uncomputable, because if they're computable, you can devise a TM to compute them, and write that TM as a finite string, and there's your finite program. < 1564665085 180190 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In a sense" probably includes "If you're not also worrying about Kolmogorov complexity" in its meaning here < 1564665447 565200 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? in a sense < 1564665448 757537 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564665572 858721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in a wisdom context we need to clarify which of the 5 senses we're talking about. < 1564665627 793968 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balance < 1564665635 840444 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right and wrong < 1564665859 436730 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Balance < 1564665860 33932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balance \ 1W \ Sorcery \ Each player chooses a number of lands they control equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Players discard cards and sacrifice creatures the same way. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, EMA-M, VMA-M, ME4-R, V09-M \ \ Balance of Power \ 3UU \ Sorcery \ If target opponent has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference. \ P1-R, P3K-R, 8ED-R < 1564665955 402827 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Right and wrong" is probably a future split spell < 1564666287 748652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "Wrong, instant, 1B, choose one: counter target "Right" spell, or put a -1/-1 counter on target creature." / "Right, instant, 1W: Choose one: counter target "Wrong" spell, or: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature." -- probably unbalanced, but what do you think of the mutual counter spell idea? ) > 1564666326 301824 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64925&oldid=64924 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+48) 10 < 1564666429 834748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not meant to be useful either, just for flavor.) < 1564666503 914254 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: unbalanced in what sense? just the +1/+1 counter instant half alone would cost (W/G) alone, the other half would cost (B/R), making it a split card makes it a bit better because it gives you the choice, but not so much as to make it too cheap for 1B and 1W < 1564666526 922925 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the Right would have to be the left half, strange as it may sound < 1564666544 288196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I wasn't making a split card though. < 1564666549 715035 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564666554 810874 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they're definitely overpriced < 1564666558 785899 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Scar < 1564666559 422372 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scar \ (b/r) \ Instant \ Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. \ SHM-C \ \ Scarab Feast \ B \ Instant \ Exile up to three target cards from a single graveyard. \ Cycling {B} ({B}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ AKH-C \ \ Scarab of the Unseen \ 2 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Scarab of the Unseen: Return all Auras attached to target permanent you own to their owners' hands. Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep. \ AI-U \ \ Scarblade < 1564666595 979574 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Battlegrowth < 1564666596 648663 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Battlegrowth \ G \ Instant \ Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. \ MRD-C < 1564666603 751763 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, isn't there one that costs (W/G)? < 1564666644 111713 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1564666655 978110 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Burst of Strength < 1564666656 720992 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Burst of Strength \ G \ Instant \ Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and untap it. \ GTC-C < 1564666668 26896 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just G is clearly not too cheap < 1564666676 537058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I really wanted 'wrong: counter "right" spell' 'right: counter "wrong" spell' - which means they have to be instants. But the cards need another effect to have any use at all. < 1564666678 95198 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably could be done for (W/G) < 1564666703 449999 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, but I still think those names would be reserved for a split spell unless that's proven impossible < 1564666713 357726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue about balancing in M:tG; I have never played it seriously and I have not played it in the past 8 years. < 1564666725 593734 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such nice short names are in a short supply for M:tG, because it wants to live for a long time > 1564666744 622232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64926&oldid=64919 5* 03A 5* (+152) 10 < 1564666750 469316 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One) card makes fun of that < 1564666809 307959 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sequential_tag_system is (I guess) the reference point for what I was saying. I think that explanation for why infinite programs are justified is more than a little muddy. < 1564666823 722649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also arbitrarily thought that "right" should be a white spell and "wrong" a black one :P) < 1564666854 894466 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, it certainly makes sense that the white spell puts the +1/+1 counter and the black spell puts the -1/-1 counters < 1564666918 478608 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if you want two opposing spells that counter each other, I'd like to point to the ones from Alpha: < 1564666923 281073 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Blue Elemental Blast < 1564666925 237499 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blue Elemental Blast \ U \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ • Counter target red spell. \ • Destroy target red permanent. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, A25-U, ME4-U < 1564666925 752664 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Red Elemental Blast < 1564666927 746272 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Red Elemental Blast \ R \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ • Counter target blue spell. \ • Destroy target blue permanent. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, A25-U, ME4-U < 1564666960 817846 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also White Knight and Black Knight, but they don't counter < 1564666985 760451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: thanks for the example < 1564667041 792684 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :countering itself doesn't happen often in black and white, which is why this pair is red and blue > 1564667232 773651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64927&oldid=64905 5* 03A 5* (-41) 10 > 1564667270 314706 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64928&oldid=64927 5* 03A 5* (+16) 10 < 1564667437 211784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564667556 451235 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Sequential tag system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64929 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+698) 10Created page with "== Trying to make this more precise == Here are some subsets of the set of all sequential tag systems: * Sequential tag systems that a cyclic tag system can be translated int..." > 1564667907 309148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64930&oldid=64928 5* 03A 5* (-294) 10/* Instructions in deadfish Joust */ > 1564668269 997749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64931&oldid=64930 5* 03A 5* (+749) 10 > 1564668282 617997 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64932&oldid=64931 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */ < 1564668920 48909 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a language that accepts infinite programs and you don't restrict that set of programs to those that have finite descriptions (as e.g. TMs that generate them) you're... not in a place where it makes sense to write TC proofs anymore. < 1564669069 230797 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some CAs need infinite initial configurations to be shown TC. In practice those configurations always have finite descriptions, as far as I have ever seen < 1564669135 501348 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect you want an even stronger constraint than "finite" but again, I don't think I've seen any which need extremely complex initial configurations < 1564669154 200463 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sequential tag systems that are expansions of cyclic tag systems are not very complex at all < 1564669392 154294 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine anyone who objects to a TC proof by that method, would also object to the very idea of a language that allows infinite programs < 1564669435 480929 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, if they don't, I'd like to hear more about their philosophical views of computation < 1564669648 978947 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This is what I've been ranting about today. Well, this and second-order concatenative languages < 1564669753 411172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I have something of a practical objection: people see TCness proofs based on infinite cyclic initial states and then try to use them to prove other languages TC, when those languages can only simulate finitely-nonblank initial states < 1564669787 489912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen so many proofs that try to prove something TC via implementing rule 110 but with the space only finitely initialised… < 1564669819 907663 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it proven that rule 100 with finite initialisation is not TC? < 1564669844 439545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, there's clearly a boundary between acceptable and unacceptable initial states for infiinite programs, the main controversy is about where to put it < 1564669848 607247 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are those proofs fixable by initializing the infinite tape lazily? < 1564669866 372962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: occasionally there's an obvious way to do it, often thare isn't though < 1564669868 491242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there < 1564670124 519648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never liked the rule 110 proof. < 1564670273 708713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To my mind the repeating pattern /extends/ the behavior of the cellular automaton in a non-trivial way, by encoding some special behavior at the boundary of the (properly) populated cells.) < 1564670354 126079 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazily initializing new cells when the finite but unbounded state needs to be expanded is a better way at looking at many languages (including CA) than saying they have infinite programs. < 1564670365 261763 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imo. < 1564670383 972450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: fwiw, I put some of my thoughts on the matter into the form of a language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Along_and_Across < 1564670481 221692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me that it's dangerous to ever say "X can't be Turing-complete" without a really good argument, and if various AaA variants were proven to be sub-TC it would help make TCness proofs using certain forms of infinite initial states more acceptable > 1564670526 24599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64933 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+229) 10Created page with "[[User: A]], apart from this language being stack-based, how is this language based off of [[Brace For Impact]]? ~~~~" < 1564670531 818435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite initial states lead to some weirdness even in the abstract, though, e.g. they make LBAs TC by giving them access to infinite memory < 1564670540 396397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that's true even with a blank state) < 1564670582 467349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any other standard proof technique for sub-TCness besides a) reduce to a known sub-TC language and b) solving the Halting problem? < 1564670623 546188 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that seems a rather sad state of affairs. < 1564670637 305752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :+to be < 1564670647 16384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'd argue a language that searches for counterexamples to the Riemann hypothesis and does nothing else is obviously sub-TC, yet doesn't fulfil either of those conditions < 1564670671 555707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I'm not sure why I think that way; despite being obviously sub-TC I'm not convined it's true < 1564670691 643814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the issue is that there's no way to provide it with a program to run, even indirectly/ < 1564670712 133182 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then it's not even a language? < 1564670726 629531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again this seems to be outside the space where "Turing complete" even makes sense anymore < 1564670733 921729 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so another technique is to prove that there are only finitely many essentially different programs? > 1564670747 32932 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64934&oldid=64932 5* 03A 5* (+138) 10 < 1564670759 168805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: that's a good way to express my thoughts, thanks < 1564670784 945217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess esolang design is like art, it's very hard to prove that there's /anything/ that isn't an esolang < 1564670798 503579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither because it's non-esoteric nor because it isn't a language < 1564670799 560360 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, we have an easy way to tell which of the finitely many classes any program falls into, while we need not know what the program does < 1564670819 403175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: yes, I like that < 1564670841 98522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm < 1564670856 341398 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of contrapositive Rice's theorem? < 1564670863 4859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about the language implemented by a truth-machine: it has two programs, 0 and 1, one of them halts, the other one doesn't < 1564670882 871620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you disregard I/O, given any Turing machine program, it's equivalent to one or the other of those two programs < 1564670893 701563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, of course, that the compile is uncomputable < 1564670906 364593 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's why it's important that it's easy to tell which program falls into which of our classes < 1564670915 281690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you need to assume the Church-Turing thesis to be able to say that the language is definitely sub-TC < 1564670931 841341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm < 1564670944 801895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe computational class equivalence is relative to the power of your compiler < 1564670959 282305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine a language that's TC but you can't compile into it in polynomial time < 1564670996 452476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An Odd Rewriting System might be one of those!) < 1564671012 87701 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's what I was talking about the other day < 1564671040 608122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, there were several different but related issues there and I was confused about which specific one you were looking at < 1564671049 4495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to say "reduction" instead of "compiler" < 1564671052 142432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about the >polynomial blowup in program size < 1564671064 410294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thought that's what you meant too < 1564671070 164731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the complexity of the compiler < 1564671082 159262 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh right, that's slightly different < 1564671095 165809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, making the output too large to generate in polytime is an easy way to require a >polytime compiler, but there might be other ways > 1564671101 969680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64935&oldid=64933 5* 03A 5* (+180) 10 > 1564671161 483406 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64936&oldid=64879 5* 03A 5* (-25) 10 < 1564671180 685804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, can you have a language where you need to be able to solve the subset sum problem to be able to write arbitrary programs in it? < 1564671189 425728 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can you make a polynomially-expanding clock in AORS? < 1564671203 204813 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously you can make exponential and constant-period ones > 1564671241 613849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64937&oldid=64936 5* 03A 5* (+118) 10 > 1564671263 284720 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64938&oldid=64935 5* 03A 5* (+14) 10 < 1564671331 672355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm… you can easily create a polynomially-widening bit of code, I can't see an obvious way to make that into a clock though > 1564671338 936969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64939&oldid=64938 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10 < 1564671385 308267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless… what if each such section of code were single-use, and triggered a copy of itself (which had since grown a little)? < 1564671391 783664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is possible > 1564671527 524408 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64940&oldid=64937 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10 < 1564671598 621035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea would be to start with some code that generates a static tape pattern like abaaaabbaaaaaaaaabbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbb… (that should be fairly easy, I think); the 'a's grow polynomially, the 'b's exponenntially > 1564671643 587064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64941&oldid=64939 5* 03A 5* (-28) 10 < 1564671644 793387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when receiving an oddness signal from the left, a 'b' repeats it on the next cycle, then deletes itself if it didn't see such a repeat from its left < 1564671729 270412 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did manage to convince myself that a constant-period clock wouldn't work, because you at some point have more cells than the period, so need to re-use communication channels whos previous values you want to ignore, but the only operation you have is XOR, so you can't. < 1564671733 977508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have a second type of oddness signal that the 'a's use to communicate; if they see the first type of signal and it isn't immediately repeated, they all change into an alternative state that sends the second signal every cycle until they didn't see it on their left the previous cycle < 1564671768 796884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, we also need a 'c' to the left of the 'b's which generates the first sort of signal once when the second sort stops < 1564671782 410557 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you need to generate "clear channels". At the same time, you don't need to generate an exponential number of them. Only linear in the number of cells, probably, or at worst n^2 < 1564671789 188770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that produces a polynomially-growing clock but with exponentially-growing code < 1564671912 780901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, doesn't work directly, the 'a's interfere with each others' signals < 1564671933 174841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still make it work but you need the blocks of 'a's to have exponentially-growing width too < 1564671949 464387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you might not be able to generate them fast enough < 1564672033 117171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AORS is really unintuitive, there are a lot of operations that seem trivial but then you try to implement them and they don't work < 1564672072 258166 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the string grows expoenentially then it takes exponential time if you measure processing each character, which is probably the way you should measure it < 1564672116 52447 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, the computational class example in AaA reminds me of the proof that the emptiness of the intersection of two CFLs is undecidable < 1564672126 783350 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is a CFL and a regular language < 1564672152 913373 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intersection of a CFL and a regular language is context-free, if I am not mistaken < 1564672158 931102 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid question. have I ever written a python quine? < 1564672177 584046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: you're likely in a better place to answer that question than anyone esle is < 1564672189 932193 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1564672194 379872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it helps, I know that /I've/ written a python quine, but that doesn't really answer the question < 1564672208 844502 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I haven't, at least not a non-empty one < 1564672213 379413 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll fix that now < 1564672268 79617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most, maybe all, of my Python quines have been polyglots < 1564672564 952072 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually I think AaA is Turing-complete because mu-calculus < 1564672571 525654 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you follow me < 1564672602 100566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the mu-calculus well enough to follow < 1564672603 558950 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're searching for the smallest integer that fulfils some primitive condition. < 1564672631 692863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the FSM/FSM version, I'm searching for the smallest integer whose digitis match a particular regex < 1564672668 309339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, I'm regexing consecutive integers to produce a list of results, then trying to determine if those results match a particular regex < 1564672678 746030 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry apparently the word "calculus" is not standard for it < 1564672689 147904 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C-recursive_function < 1564672731 401380 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Intuitively, minimisation seeks—beginning the search from 0 and proceeding upwards—the smallest argument that causes the function to return zero; if there is no such argument, the search never terminates." < 1564672760 619365 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you add that operator to PR you get RE (i.e. it's Turing-complete) < 1564672775 78477 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the weakest system you could add that operator to and get something TC > 1564672785 755291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64942&oldid=64875 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1436) 10 < 1564672786 310170 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know of anything requiring it to be as powerful as PR < 1564672810 422542 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print((',')[k],end=',')')[k],end='') < 1564672813 472049 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print((',')[k],end=',')')[k],end='') < 1564672867 877618 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me make that a bit nicer < 1564672981 484028 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print((',')[k],end=str())')[k],end=str()) < 1564672982 287337 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print((',')[k],end=str())')[k],end=str()) < 1564672992 240919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think it was mentioned on the talk page that what you have is basically µ-recursion which only allows one use of the µ operator < 1564672994 52925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode µ < 1564672994 757411 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+00B5 MICRO SIGN] < 1564673001 920434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong µ, sorry, the other one isn't on my keyboard < 1564673021 812869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means you can have a different computational power inside and outside < 1564673023 469153 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if a while program only needs one while loop, ... ok, that's hardly the best sort of reasoning > 1564673030 91774 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64943&oldid=64942 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+367) 10 < 1564673050 161090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having only FSMs/regular languages inside the µ seems like it's a substantial cut to the power of the language < 1564673055 405629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so Plokmijnuhby noticed exactly what I noticed < 1564673089 501693 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but has a much cooler name than I do) < 1564673136 93405 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You definitely only need one minimization operation to be TC (he said without a shred of proof) < 1564673153 980359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's not quite the same < 1564673157 232522 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You search for the smallest Turing machine that does what you need and you simulate that and you're done < 1564673162 284428 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :μ ? < 1564673175 615841 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :μ ! < 1564673198 761428 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moo < 1564673203 669014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current AaA proof doesn't work in µ-calculus with only one minimization, as you need to put the minimization itself into a loop < 1564673216 900914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like, only one minimization is allowed in the program's /source code/ but you can put control flow around it < 1564673223 532523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode μ < 1564673224 225428 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU] < 1564673231 40093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode μ < 1564673231 676373 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU] < 1564673260 440867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if μ and µ didn't look identical I wouldn't have to unidecode them to see which was which < 1564673320 81011 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? font < 1564673321 174948 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ < 1564673403 216689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's no real reason for them to /look/ different, they're just /semantically/ different (one is pronounced "m", or "mu" if alone, and one is pronounced "micro") < 1564673455 22286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should stop being lazy and finally upgrade my compose key to RFC 1345, even if it's a little less intuitive than the standard compose key layout < 1564673522 608933 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think they're only historically different < 1564673567 613829 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite as how the t with comma under and the t with cedilla under are now different letters when they used to be the same, the two mus are now the same but we have to support both encodings < 1564673702 128845 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that analogy makes no sense < 1564673787 93526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's a character in CP437 which was intended to be used for both the German ß and the Greek beta… < 1564673801 13014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and those don't even /look/ the same, just kind of similar, but are definitely semantically different) < 1564673819 373852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the semantic difference between μ and µ is probably relevant for things like screen readers < 1564673840 971840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compare "µ-architecture" to "m-architecture", for example) < 1564673901 807041 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, because that encoding was originally made for unchangable 256 sized character sets burned into ROM, with fonts that are 14 or 8 pixel high on a monitor, or similarly small on a printer < 1564674132 536872 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once used a typewriter that had no "1" key. It was assumed you'd just use a lowercase "l" for it. < 1564674206 659530 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2015/04/ibm-character-fonts.html nice listing of all the original fonts < 1564674236 599953 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, old typewriters were like that, no "1", no "0", no "í", no "ú", no "ű". < 1564674792 781608 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can kind of imagine μ(FA(μ(CFL))) (if that's what that AaA construction is, still pretty fuzzy on that) being Turing-complete < 1564674823 907413 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some construction in the vicinity of that < 1564674833 451448 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FA"? < 1564674839 29940 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSM if you like < 1564674846 319431 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Football Association < 1564674848 718808 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Finite Automaton) < 1564674856 336159 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564675027 270812 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564675043 128861 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to do an esolang around something like μ(CFL), by coincidence. Haven't gotten around to it yet < 1564675079 555454 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always something more interesting on the other side of the fence < 1564675084 154159 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1564675091 283927 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A la prochaine. < 1564675093 376226 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1564675323 305996 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in b'2030401010201030104010505':print((chr(39),',','for k in b','2030401010201030104010505',':print((chr(39),',')[k-48],end=str())')[k-48],end=str()) < 1564675327 283634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in b'2030401010201030104010505':print((chr(39),',','for k in b','2030401010201030104010505',':print((chr(39),',')[k-48],end=str())')[k-48],end=str()) < 1564675336 527413 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one is longer, but there's something I can do with it < 1564675397 658283 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvwzwrrcnxtjvuhr JOIN :#esoteric < 1564676233 426150 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cs='1606261656265636564656563664';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=',')for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end='')for k in s] < 1564676234 201644 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s='1606261656265636564656563664';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=',')for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end='')for k in s] < 1564676414 700077 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cs='150525154525453545453';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s] < 1564676417 124891 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s='150525154525453545453';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s] < 1564676419 256665 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better < 1564676446 458911 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there would probably be much shorter ones if I didn't try this ridiculous indexing thing < 1564677089 420596 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1173 < 1564677090 132380 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1173: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1564677457 455599 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564679701 221662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564680315 437936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1564680358 309879 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564680578 283685 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564681139 866882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric > 1564682387 836548 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64944&oldid=64911 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+298) 10 > 1564682409 714985 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64945&oldid=64944 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+4) 10 < 1564683236 397492 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564685379 906835 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the chonky orange cat is back < 1564685914 876337 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564685915 172369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yay < 1564685918 467707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat < 1564686012 205614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat < 1564686017 129328 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis cat < 1564686017 767804 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal. < 1564686020 587358 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat(1) - concatenate files and print on the standard output \ cat(1p) - concatenate and print files \ CaT(1hackeso) - no description \ cAt(1hackeso) - no description < 1564686148 178528 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat < 1564686174 497770 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dog < 1564686175 100774 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found < 1564686178 718242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686202 895553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery cat < 1564686203 664963 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cat is an animal with four legs. It's nice to pet, especially when it's a baby cat, called a kitten. Or it's the unix "cat" command. It takes a filename (or many) and prints the contents of that (those) file(s). < 1564686235 848921 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :boringly accurate < 1564686376 132056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e s+tp:+tps+ tmflry/wiki < 1564686377 946372 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686382 336277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery wiki < 1564686383 84652 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is at https//esolangs.org/wiki < 1564686387 420430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1564686395 916432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e s+tps/+tps:/+ tmflry/wiki < 1564686397 504131 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686400 405454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery wiki < 1564686401 296493 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is at https://esolangs.org/wiki < 1564686410 39382 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564686417 557725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd edited all the urls in the wisdome earlier, but this one fell aside < 1564687923 930990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? right < 1564687927 173208 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right is not two wrongs but three lefts. < 1564688325 783059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right is the direction you should face towards when the baby metroid drains you, in order to be able to stand up slightly faster. < 1564689224 686185 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric > 1564689370 393064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* 10New user account < 1564689496 83597 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, is it feasible to calculate the first few decimal digits of Graham's number? 🤔 < 1564689514 988141 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graham's number is of the form 3^3^3^3^... < 1564689547 280830 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculating the first few digits entails calculating, what is it. < 1564689557 788319 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(3^3^3^3^...) mod log(10), isn't it? > 1564689606 680135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64946&oldid=64797 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+146) 10 > 1564689643 623311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64947&oldid=64946 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (-5) 10ok then > 1564689680 517667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64948&oldid=64947 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+65) 10I have no idea what I'm doing < 1564689762 612469 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564689943 735022 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564689947 770330 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1564691267 905369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64949 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+2326) 10Created page with "==Forget== '''Forget''' is a stack-based language where pointers are poisonous and the interpreter doesn't do a good job of remembering non-constant values ==Syntax== Instruct..." > 1564691391 745925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64950&oldid=64949 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+49) 10 > 1564691445 398087 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64951&oldid=64900 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+13) 10 > 1564691507 844815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64952&oldid=64950 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+7) 10 > 1564691578 647873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64953&oldid=64952 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+183) 10 > 1564691593 709923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64954&oldid=64953 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+1) 10 > 1564691614 17142 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64955&oldid=64560 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+23) 10 > 1564691832 790664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64956&oldid=64951 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+23) 10/* B */ > 1564691893 553129 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64957&oldid=64943 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Turing complete proof */ > 1564692334 552473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64958&oldid=64859 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+136) 10 > 1564692368 773062 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64959&oldid=64958 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+2) 10/* Brace For Impact */ > 1564692375 671196 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64960&oldid=64959 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10/* Brace For Impact */ < 1564692872 41933 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564693478 297981 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564695732 373355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jussef Swissen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64961&oldid=64617 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-20) 10 > 1564696119 921029 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64962&oldid=64957 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+104) 10Actually gave a program > 1564696226 147689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64963&oldid=64962 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+110) 10/* Turing complete Proof */ > 1564697009 197771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64964&oldid=64963 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+671) 10 > 1564697019 362757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64965&oldid=64964 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10/* = Hello World Program */ < 1564698227 840142 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564698605 807458 :dog_star_!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqansztzearqalna JOIN :#esoteric < 1564698941 26777 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564699040 351074 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-negxohmuvosypbht QUIT :*.net *.split < 1564699040 575774 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :*.net *.split > 1564699189 390262 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64966&oldid=64892 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+629) 10 < 1564699215 837582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: chonky orange cats are good luck < 1564699287 20721 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564699289 155634 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1564699290 861573 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't all cats < 1564699395 388119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1564699778 227885 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564702000 593886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564702667 598915 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there are any rational functions that are Turing-complete when iterated. < 1564702725 864437 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :A piecewise affine function R*R -> R*R is Turing-complete when iterated. You can use a real number as a stack plus a bit of finite state, and two stacks and finite state are enough to make a Turing machine. < 1564702764 455675 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be clear, I mean rational functions that are Turing-complete when iterated on the real numbers. < 1564702770 781098 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the same question for complex numbers is also interesting. < 1564702925 869726 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's almost certainly easier to make a computer by iterating on the complex numbers rather than the real numbers. < 1564702966 641602 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the Mandelbrot set Turing-complete? Can you convert a Turing machine into a complex number such that the complex number escapes if and only if the Turing machine halts?