: <__libc_csu_init>: <__libc_csu_fini>: <_fini>: < 1564286846 499903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's all this nonsense? Am I supposed to do all that? > 1564286936 726167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Idea14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64748&oldid=64747 5* 03A 5* (-10) 10 < 1564287000 464739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what does csu stand for. Something boring like "C start-up" maybe? < 1564287016 591645 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I have once used LLVM and just defined main, and it work, so, I don't know how to do it without main < 1564287082 755138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This directory contains the C startup code (that which calls main)." from glibc/csu/ < 1564287086 125266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, looking at https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=tree;f=csu it's all connected to initialization of various things... < 1564287100 510295 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From the Makefile.) < 1564287155 890992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So crti/crtn stand for "initializer" and "finalizer". < 1564287179 874658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dbp-consulting.com/tutorials/debugging/linuxProgramStartup.html has a fancy diagram < 1564287256 841969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it seems that my idea of .init is all wrong, I thought the loader handled those... but it's libc. The loader does preinit stuff, which I wasn't aware of. < 1564287278 117426 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(loader = interpreter = ld.so) < 1564287314 319933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no. < 1564287349 199207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was unaware of both preinit and init stuff; only the constructors were on my radar. < 1564287353 526805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like the loader has to be involved. < 1564287360 450336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many mechanisms... < 1564287763 244333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, that picture fails to explain what rdx is used for by the loader. < 1564287804 814697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or edx, since they're discussing x86 < 1564287809 883666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :_32 < 1564287822 375861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It explains it under rtld_fini, doesn't it? < 1564287965 937878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is calling __libc_start_main required by any program that wants to use libraries that link against libc? < 1564288072 746306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it looks like to me. It seems that *a lot* of initialization doesn't happen otherwise. < 1564288096 619603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the world is libc :) < 1564288106 433239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's register_tm_clones and other things. < 1564288563 690994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://stackoverflow.com/questions/34966097/what-functions-does-gcc-add-to-the-linux-elf talks about these a bit. < 1564288790 945726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/TransactionalMemory - yay yet another ABI < 1564288937 192121 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does this need to be linked into my program instead of libc? < 1564289104 542688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's a gcc feature not a libc feature, and presumably glibc doesn't use transactional memory itself? < 1564289111 276618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This page says some of these things are deprecated, too. < 1564289138 160409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I should take advantage of being up early and go for a walk before it starts getting hot. < 1564289143 549251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time int-e < 1564289144 245934 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for int-e is Sun Jul 28 06:45:43 2019 < 1564289238 354197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi < 1564289238 680810 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 280420Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW008 SCT018 BKN090 16/15 Q1001 NOSIG < 1564289256 663249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar koak < 1564289257 85482 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 280353Z 29007KT 10SM CLR 20/15 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T02000150 $ < 1564289265 373756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, almost chilly... < 1564291335 430187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I thought the _tm_ things were necessary when linking any library that uses the transactional memory. < 1564291338 433110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not. < 1564293360 969728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I expect so. But why should the C library care? < 1564293911 846193 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it doesn't. < 1564293938 731703 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe I'll just call __libc_start_main or something and see if anything breaks. < 1564293947 987705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like a good way to be confident in your software. < 1564294000 823121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, gcc is a C compiler but in this case it's implementing its own features that need additional initialization support. < 1564294036 445751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would invoke gcc as a linker, tbh. Maybe g++ if C++ stuff is involved. < 1564294169 446867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems complicated. < 1564294171 82532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(partly because that's what ghc does) < 1564294177 512451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how do you cross-compile in that scenario? < 1564294193 789355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1564294207 809585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically don't cross-compile. < 1564294293 949699 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably because every tool makes it impossible to cross-compile because they do things like that. < 1564294294 891022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess technically the OpenCL experiment involved cross compilation. The last time before that was playing with an Arduino. < 1564294302 3567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or because you unly use one platform, I guess. < 1564294344 717053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have a gcc cross compiler for the target then that should work? < 1564294374 560440 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564294516 214319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought cross-compiling with gcc was a nightmare. < 1564294543 190698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was true in general, independent of gcc. < 1564294611 698638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as indicated I have not really touched cross compilation. < 1564294627 260021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even for the Arduino thing I used a canned Makefile which, fortunately, worked. < 1564294643 494201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should look at what Go does when it makes non-statically-linked binaries. < 1564294646 477362 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That did involve gcc as a cross compiler. < 1564294714 322757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but as a stand-alone implementation without a full-fledged C library, so a lot of *your* problems didn't really come up) < 1564294733 995062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no dynamic linking either!) < 1564294762 783873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already made an ELF file that segfaults gdb. < 1564294877 931588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that your goal? :P < 1564294878 358497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually pretty easy, you can make it with objcopy. < 1564294893 830606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, my goal was to make an ELF file that can be executed. < 1564294900 287389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I managed that too.) < 1564294932 45300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Didn't we once find out that you can crash /bin/true by messing with localisation?) < 1564294961 504623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember that. < 1564294985 478696 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about an ELF file that can be executed but still makes gdb crash when you attempt to load it there? < 1564295033 288289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Basic idea, put garbage in some sections that only gdb really cares about... dwarf stuff, say.) < 1564295047 15499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't remember whether the ELF file I made loaded. < 1564295099 892630 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, also SEGV < 1564295198 423258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf, it was /bin/true --help < 1564295542 119846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it looks like Go programs that link with libc don't call libc_start_main. < 1564295593 815680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go, be evil. < 1564295642 514118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what do they do instead? < 1564295646 86217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably just do that. < 1564295652 757093 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://golang.org/src/runtime/asm_amd64.s < 1564295703 908697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what assembly flavor is that... < 1564295707 855750 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I'm wrong. < 1564295712 153568 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9 assembly, obviously. < 1564295757 8902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm I guess actually I'm wondering about the register naming. < 1564295781 925263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the register sizes are implied by the instruction names? < 1564295861 369214 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently I was writing a bit of x86 code by hand and I was confusil until I remembered someone said octal would be better than hexadecimal. < 1564295868 892888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I was a bit less confusil. < 1564295902 226234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the (SB) do? < 1564295927 31305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Oh is that a register... < 1564295984 457729 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://golang.org/doc/asm < 1564295991 468368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The SB pseudo-register can be thought of as the origin of memory, so the symbol foo(SB) is the name foo as an address in memory." < 1564296142 826525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that file defines main to be called by libc, but as far as I can tell that's not being used on a compiled binary. < 1564297049 190542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://golang.org/src/cmd/cgo/doc.go ... have a look at lines 698ff. It seems that gcc is involved in the middle of the process. < 1564297114 23980 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :__libc_start_main is mentioned but it's not clear by what mechanism it would actually be called. < 1564297223 796564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that means it's still possible that it isn't called) < 1564299054 121625 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: this may disappoint you, but go will use gcc or clang as a linker if shared libraries are involved somehow. < 1564299159 979126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://golang.org/src/cmd/link/internal/ld/config.go#L224 < 1564299220 463800 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(plus documentation for `link`, which says "Set the external linker (default "clang" or "gcc")." for the -extld flag.) < 1564299231 892233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I didn't see it executing gcc in the strace output, and I didn't see libc_start_main in the output of objdump -d < 1564299261 493906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm did you do strace -f < 1564299269 273818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it is passing -extld=gcc to `link`. < 1564299278 186676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1564299349 581726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm misinterpreting ctxt.linkShared. < 1564299352 417247 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1564299357 788693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will stop anyway < 1564299427 973182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's being cached somehow? < 1564300311 517640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway the entry point is certainly _rt0_amd64_linux < 1564300677 254778 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564300821 126046 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564300900 595615 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:c13b:e67f:162:2f48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564301737 823017 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the BDF format is apparently so old that BDF files were "typically distributed on nine-track tapes" < 1564301781 513812 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why one would use a text-based format rather than binary in that era, I don't know < 1564301889 887162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they could be input using punched cards maybe? < 1564301909 247632 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah, that would explain it < 1564301921 622893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the benefit of bitmap font formats? < 1564301940 861361 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are easy to edit < 1564301966 811852 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, that's my main reasoning < 1564302057 543881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Maybe punched cards are too old, but even so I suspect being able to edit bitmaps in a text editor was useful. < 1564302171 956284 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, hmm. It's using hex encoding. That's inconvenient. < 1564302189 135202 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am currently working on making my BDF-handling programs more general, rather than totally specific to my neoletters font < 1564302228 623211 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should be capable of handling any number of rows and up to 32 columns of pixels < 1564302729 168300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: have you considered making a signed distance field font instead hth < 1564306115 749793 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564306798 120293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file /bin/true < 1564306798 816687 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin/true: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=9ae82394864538fa7b23b7f87b259ea2a20889c4, stripped < 1564306830 142810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a shared object (rather than an executable) because it's a position-independent executable? < 1564306863 896728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ldd /bin/true < 1564306864 667049 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ linux-vdso.so.1 (0x0000007fbffff000) \ libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x000000004042e000) \ /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x0000000040000000) < 1564306889 134053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` readelf -h /bin/true | grep -i entry < 1564306889 830261 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ Entry point address: 0x1670 < 1564306906 86122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look like an absolute entry point. < 1564306925 721563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's pretty neat. I guess I want my programs to be position-independent. < 1564306934 427279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I get the question, hmm. < 1564306956 571096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file --version < 1564306957 204878 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :file-5.30 \ magic file from /etc/magic:/usr/share/misc/magic < 1564306969 626285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that's much trickier if you're doing static linking. < 1564306994 208901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here it says, /bin/true: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, with file-5.37 (though technically iot's the `magic` file that's more important...) < 1564307007 884565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does readelf say? < 1564307024 502547 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` readelf -h /bin/true | grep -i type < 1564307025 285141 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ Type: DYN (Shared object file) < 1564307073 950216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start: int3' > /tmp/test.s && as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o && file /tmp/test < 1564307074 763090 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/test: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped < 1564307206 433717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/file/file/commit/6876ebadcdf27224b3ffa9dfa4343127aa97c9b2 < 1564307210 325958 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a pretty recent change. < 1564307310 535963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Does it just print that because it has +x permission? < 1564307666 417869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe but then please explain why file -L /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 says "shared object" < 1564307714 104995 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the thing it links to? < 1564307728 939333 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's -L < 1564307760 663363 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my version of file isn't even new enough to say "pie executable" < 1564307902 209097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, no, 'x' must be something else. < 1564307915 719462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1564308346 151992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also confused that it says leshort when e_type is a one-byte value. < 1564308361 947809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last time I wrote magic entries I didn't enjoy it. < 1564308581 594837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you got the meaning of 'x' right. < 1564308598 806510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/file/file/commit/5b49de03a239c6765b6b6858d56827a021370b07#diff-dde49634c7a5cf692df46037d67d8c2eR480-R488 < 1564308704 344486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I'm pretty confused now < 1564308747 553459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you try it on the link target to be sure? < 1564308786 675675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually made a copy of /bin/true, removed the x, and it still says "pie executable" < 1564308811 748791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1564308828 299008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also is this the one use of ${ in the entire magic database? < 1564308866 446737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly? the feature was introduced one or two patches before the elf change < 1564308913 525195 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564308914 932472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, autoconf/automake is such a scow < 1564308919 114661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly looks that way < 1564308923 894693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me miserable every time I accidentally read any of it < 1564308924 154466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: x) < 1564308957 740037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I call things scow sometimes but I think this is a pretty legitimate use < 1564309149 909496 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this is a real mystery now. < 1564309156 965665 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only I had a more recent version of file. < 1564309509 423028 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I guess I can get it from Nix. < 1564309527 314623 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, there's more magic > 1564309546 466211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bauberqueue/bauberqueue.py14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64749&oldid=64378 5* 03Erikkonstas 5* (-9) 10 < 1564309560 188677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which overrides the file mode for ELF files < 1564309618 975536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/file/file/blob/master/src/readelf.c modifies ms->mode in a couple of places. < 1564309653 510228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yikes. OK. < 1564309723 313820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` readelf -a /bin/true | grep FLAGS_1 < 1564309724 86009 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ 0x000000006ffffffb (FLAGS_1) Flags: PIE < 1564309804 161681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder where this is specified? < 1564310173 989179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cirosantilli.com/elf-hello-world#df_1_pie talks about it and links to a description < 1564310178 403912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, this is ridiculous. < 1564310241 230094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` readelf -h /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 | grep -i entry < 1564310242 28006 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ Entry point address: 0xc20 < 1564310266 156398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even ld-linux is randomized? < 1564310275 831574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like this elf specific hack was initially introduced just for ", stripped" (checking for the absence of a particular type of section is too hard for the simple 'magic' logic) < 1564310277 252138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm a bit confused about how ASLR works. < 1564310303 133047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems the kernel decides to randomize based on an ELF file calling itself DYN. < 1564310422 561490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, on a fundamental level that's nevessary: ld.so remains mapped executably, and may contain useful functions and ROP gadgets. < 1564310430 825554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1564310441 663832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then why would the kernel only randomize DYN files? < 1564310446 698951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can static executables get randomized? < 1564310563 991084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, depends on details of the ELF format that I don't want to check... < 1564310648 103473 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://stackoverflow.com/a/55704865 says "The Linux kernel 5.0 determines if ASLR can be used based on ET_DYN" < 1564310769 433038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v5.0/fs/binfmt_elf.c#L956 < 1564310786 785510 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are effectively two types of ET_DYN * binaries: programs (i.e. PIE: ET_DYN with INTERP) and loaders (ET_DYN without INTERP, since they _are_ the ELF interpreter)." < 1564310791 49781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, linux. thinux. < 1564310856 986316 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, that doesn't say what I thought it did. < 1564310907 929561 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the gist of it seems the same. < 1564312079 273887 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1564312285 758844 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564313952 417483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi < 1564313952 762906 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 281120Z 07003KT 030V170 9999 -SHRA FEW025 SCT050 BKN070 20/16 Q1001 TEMPO SHRA < 1564313975 767480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not hot today. it's raining actually. < 1564315541 776773 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564316921 504594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PE machine identifier for x86-64 is 0x8664 < 1564318636 519688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a look at Intel's PCI vendor id some day < 1564318668 524760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's 0x8086) < 1564319283 124832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't use the x, though. < 1564319432 93990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 0x isn't part of the ID anyway < 1564319966 236197 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564319994 207719 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564320713 602232 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybdkhkgmqgsjwoov JOIN :#esoteric > 1564322804 748124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sidex14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64750&oldid=64708 5* 03A 5* (+189) 10 > 1564323028 142267 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck extensions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64751&oldid=61455 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10 > 1564323428 172853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sidex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64752&oldid=64750 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10Oops < 1564324240 206361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel also has the "8086F2" MAC OUI, which may or may not be a coincidence. (They have many others too.) > 1564324609 800379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Idea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64753&oldid=64748 5* 03A 5* (+109) 10 < 1564324813 263100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next you'll tell me they have it in their CPUID < 1564325340 887516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know, do they? < 1564325406 15011 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map length . words $ "GenuineIntel AuthenticAMD" < 1564325412 985772 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1564325417 248248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1564325418 446055 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map length . words $ "GenuineIntel AuthenticAMD" < 1564325421 822160 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [12,12] < 1564325445 683575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only part of cpuid I tend to remember < 1564325447 536665 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564325466 212083 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1564326601 80800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh man, https://www.cs.stevens.edu/~jschauma/631A/elf.html < 1564326614 971145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many things. > 1564327075 377131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Sidex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64754&oldid=64705 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+194) 10 < 1564328417 463511 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564328432 195883 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1564328727 230800 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564329559 374344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Sidex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64755&oldid=64754 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+588) 10/* Concatenative */ new section < 1564332870 203475 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564332903 577813 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what would be nice? A non-dying Internet connection. And a chat platform that doesn't spam people when someone happens to have a dying Internet connection. < 1564333128 424860 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone's salty < 1564333149 259156 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I rent a cheap VPS, run irssi there and connect with mosh from both my laptop and phone < 1564333167 789767 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very convenient and only rarely disconnects < 1564333185 150827 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when linode reboots my machine, or i have to update irssi < 1564335039 957805 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564336710 489419 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564337328 778905 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564337946 375184 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1564337957 127444 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :meow? < 1564340616 249721 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564341033 223513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564341050 565846 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564342397 870751 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heibmrmlhutuqfbg QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564342417 640198 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kackpwqdkqqshueb JOIN :#esoteric < 1564344002 170208 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564344063 267142 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564345777 449558 :Googied!~Googied@2a00:23c5:f9f:2001:15ed:5539:f311:a057 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564345875 71576 :Googied!~Googied@2a00:23c5:f9f:2001:15ed:5539:f311:a057 PART #esoteric :"Leaving" > 1564346629 397054 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Renumbering14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64756 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+1839) 10 > 1564346634 606808 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Renumbering/Python Implementation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64757 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+1486) 10 < 1564347771 664341 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564347952 54678 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564349349 924615 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DoggyDogWhirl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64758&oldid=64682 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+18) 10 < 1564349498 624998 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybdkhkgmqgsjwoov QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1564349512 406450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64759&oldid=64646 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+18) 10 < 1564349527 934475 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564349783 223129 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564349947 290292 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1564349987 657228 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564350978 483022 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564351445 79678 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the command in Perl to count how many copies of a letter can be found in a string? < 1564353293 650993 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niyftdharlfgogth JOIN :#esoteric < 1564353323 272299 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1564356466 533497 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564356927 243922 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564357246 305599 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564358138 208453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564358180 874502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there isn't a dedicated command, but if you use code like $string =~ y/x/x/ to replace the letter with itself in the string, the return value is the number of replacements (and the string doesn't actually change); for a hardcoded letter, that's probably the shortest and clearest way to do it < 1564358185 775222 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If you do not want that spam then you should filter it out by your client. < 1564358206 883564 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: As it turns out I asked on ifMUD and received a suitable answer there, so I did what they said and it work. < 1564358219 693722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it the same answer or a different one? < 1564358247 555247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… a general method might be to split the string on the letter, count the number of components in the result, and subtract 1 < 1564358279 625343 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it's other people complaining at me in one of the channels I'm in < 1564358299 142941 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their answer was: $count = () = ($str =~ /$letter/g) < 1564358339 899873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit surprised that =()= works < 1564358344 115426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can see logical rules behind which it would < 1564358353 75484 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked because I was modifying a Scrabble game in Perl. I added a "count" command, to count how many letters remain according to your point of view, so the letters in opponent's hand have to added back in to the count. < 1564358430 909881 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Did you write more about the card game you were designing? < 1564358463 365984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1564358486 513983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on so many projects that any specific random old project from a while ago is unlikely to have received updates, even if I've had no reason to abandon it < 1564358488 463708 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made other changes as well, such as, I added a solitaire mode, and I removed the fifty-point bonus. < 1564358493 585418 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK < 1564358524 862148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is making statically linked binaries a hopeless endeavor? < 1564358576 501027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think most build tools are very good at it nowadays < 1564358598 217953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ideal would be some sort of LTO against libc, which would be fun to see < 1564358620 717279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in terms of the capabilities of the final binary, not how it's produced. < 1564358687 25427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gcc -static helloworld.c" produced a binary for me that file claims is statically linked < 1564358710 646497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it appears to have a PLT anyway, which is suspicious < 1564358742 614827 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. On Linux it's sort of possible. But once you want to do things like OpenGL it's not possible again. < 1564358778 871868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…also I'm not sure if I trust my disassembler, it disassembles "66 90" as "xchg %ax, %ax", which is not correct ("xchg %ax, %ax" would clear the upper 32 bits of %rax, it should be disassembled as "nopw" or "word ptr nop") < 1564358923 422117 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'int main() { return 0; }' | gcc -x c - -o /tmp/true; readelf -a /tmp/true > tmp/out; objdump -d /tmp/true >> tmp/out; url tmp/out < 1564358926 46950 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/out < 1564358930 617499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'int main() { return 0; }' | gcc -static -x c - -o /tmp/true; readelf -a /tmp/true > tmp/out; objdump -d /tmp/true >> tmp/out; url tmp/out < 1564358932 822916 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :readelf: Warning: [ 3]: Link field (0) should index a symtab section. \ https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/out < 1564358965 341594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly possible to make statically linked binaries that only use the kernel ABI. < 1564359035 108872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my statically linked hello world has a relocation section, which is interesting: it hasn't been fully linked < 1564359043 849565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's related to ASLR or something like that < 1564359050 591459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think glibc is quite hostile to static linking. < 1564359092 629819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC there's a separate compile of it which is more static-link-friendly < 1564359101 99214 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no reason for ASLR to cause this because all the statically linked jumps are relative. < 1564359172 873972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently not, there are some absolute calls in the compiled hello world executable < 1564359175 948162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are what are going via the PLT < 1564359196 482911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but the PLT is what's making them absolute in the first place. < 1564359233 45671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen 66 90 diassembled as xchg %ax,%ax before. I wonder why. < 1564359280 845352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\nxchg %eax,%eax\nint3' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564359281 646376 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 87 c0 xchg %eax,%eax \ 2: cc int3 < 1564359292 44941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\nxchg %ax,%ax\nint3' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564359292 877538 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 66 90 xchg %ax,%ax \ 2: cc int3 < 1564359299 720257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\nxchg %rax,%rax\nint3' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564359300 491493 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 90 nop \ 1: cc int3 < 1564359326 756494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because if you treat the instruction encoding orthogonally, 90 actually means xchg %ax, %ax on 8086; with 32-bit processors it was repurposed to mean nop (and xchg %ax, %ax is actually a nop on those) < 1564359353 31207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know that. < 1564359361 832758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you'd expect it to clear the upper 32 bits on amd64, like you said. < 1564359374 873353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so on amd64, you need to special-case 90 to have no relationship to ax < 1564359391 989580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's probably easy to forget to do that when it doesn't matter on a 32-bit processor < 1564359697 313192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"XCHG (E)AX, (E)AX (encoded instruction byte is 90H) is an alias for NOP regardless of data size prefixes, including REX.W." < 1564359746 340061 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think the diassembly is correct? Though it would be nicer to call it a 2-byte nop. < 1564359851 695224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump should have an option to show the instruction in octal. < 1564359855 225135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, "xchg %ax, %ax" assembles into 66 90 < 1564359859 267921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I ran it the other way) < 1564359909 940272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, "xchg %rax, %rax" assembles into just 90 < 1564359917 759565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess REX.W followed 90 would also be a 2-byte nop. < 1564359924 166462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that does the same thing :-D < 1564359941 965802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :REX is a bit of a complex prefix, it /also/ overrides which registers you're using < 1564359954 918906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd need to pick a version of REX that left the registers the same < 1564359985 786252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0x48; .byte 0x90\nint3' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564359986 575483 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 48 90 rex.W nop \ 2: cc int3 < 1564360001 817188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's REX.W < 1564360029 140334 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was hand-encoding some x86-64 code today so I happened to have it handy.) < 1564360031 830588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used 48 in my own tests < 1564360045 972554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it disassembles as REX.W < 1564360110 61006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder what the other REXes disassemble as < 1564360113 21411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether I should go the Microsoft route and call that architecture "x64". < 1564360131 765597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the odd-numbered REXes change the second operand to r8 < 1564360175 985781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. 41 is REX.B < 1564360211 871202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only REX.B and REX.WB weren't noted at all by the disassembler, for the others it mentioned the prefix explicitly < 1564360300 61853 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0101; .byte 0220' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564360300 919407 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 41 90 xchg %eax,%r8d < 1564360314 604085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0111; .byte 0220' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564360315 422623 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 49 90 xchg %rax,%r8 < 1564360331 618996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the spec now < 1564360334 135717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0111; .byte 0221' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564360335 435559 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: 49 91 xchg %rax,%r9 < 1564360354 705124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does HackEgo have a nicer way to ask these questions than that? < 1564360362 245871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM has some tools for it, I think. < 1564360521 105393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, xchg seems to use a really weird formatting for its arguments < 1564360548 920614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1564360579 215362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you'd use rex.r to change the first register to the r9..r15 set, but rex.rw xchg %ax, %r9 isn't interpreted as xchg %r9, %r9 like you'd expect < 1564360612 738019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it's because the one-byte encoding of xchg hardcodes the first register rather than using modrm < 1564360620 111087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* r8 < 1564360625 409244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This form of xchg just always uses ax, I think. < 1564360640 785117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so xchg %r8, %r8 has to be encoded as 4d 87 c0 < 1564360654 968124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use 0x87 to exchange arbitrary registers. < 1564360680 855846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's pretty reasonable? REX only affects registers whose name is explicitly encoded. < 1564360713 700561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep; 87 = xchg (word/dword/qword); c0 = registers only, ax or r8, ax or r8; then the rex prefix disambiguates the registers and operation size < 1564360750 764581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way this is way better in base 8. < 1564360776 120519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, 90 has a hardcoded first argument (ax), and non-hardcoded second argument (ax or r8), which seems a little inconsistent < 1564360798 757613 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mod r/m byte for two-register exchange is encoded as 03xy where x and y are the names of the two registers. < 1564360800 544484 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how calls into the OS work on Windows. On Linux and DOS there are certain interrupts. On Windows... you assemble an EXE to say that it links to kernel32.dll, and have the assembly code ... jump into some location that the loader will point to the userland code in kernel32 that will do the jump? < 1564360825 555295 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: Yes, the standard ABI is based on dynamic linking. < 1564360858 842371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of like the VDSO in Linux. < 1564360866 793136 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564360868 45809 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what VDSO is < 1564360893 187414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vDSO is a library that's provided by the kernel and that ld-linux automatically links against < 1564360894 590852 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a small ELF file that's loaded into your address space at startup in Linux which you can use to make system calls. < 1564360918 876807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some system calls can be implemented without switching to kernel mode so the VDSO implements them directly, or something. < 1564360943 747139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains a general system call instruction (mostly not needed nowadays now that syscall is a CPU instruction), but also implementations of functions like gettimeofday that communicate with the kernel using shared memory rather than system calls < 1564360982 748217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpuid is a good example, the kernel basically just places the number of the CPU the thread is running on into a particular memory location, and the vDSO implementation reads it < 1564361003 648129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the kernel to make this sort of cpuid caching work because it's the kernel that knows when it's moved a thread to a different CPU < 1564361041 528123 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought the Windows Internals book, but I think it's a bit too detailed for me. < 1564361050 289338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Windows the only stable ABI is like this. < 1564361102 259518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good way to put it is that on Windows, the only documented kernel ABI is to go via some libraries (lower-level than libc) that are provided with the operating system < 1564361122 497107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably they make calls into the kernel themselves via some means, but the way they do that, and the interfaces they use, are both intended to be opaque to users < 1564361142 405129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also the only stable way. They change the library-kernel ABI all the time. < 1564361180 615155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's the reason you make it opaque, isn't it? < 1564361184 21090 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do calls into DLLs look like at the assembly level (assuming the assembler itself doesn't hide details)? < 1564361186 170178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can change it without things breaking < 1564361236 734241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: Presumably they have references to functions exported by DLLs which are resolved by the dynamic loader. < 1564361240 874194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Windows, IIRC the way it works is that you write a jump instruction aimed at 0, together with a note (elsewhere in the executable) specifying what it's meant to go to < 1564361251 318048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the dynamic linker will update it to the real address < 1564361267 909987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: https://x0r19x91.github.io/2018/tiny-pe < 1564361283 933690 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, ais523, thank you < 1564361349 529336 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how these things work on Windows exactly but I hear it's a bit different from the standard Linux thing. < 1564361370 452149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably write a program to emit PE binaries at one point. < 1564361408 961920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, shared library linking is pretty similar between Windows and Linux at the asm level, but it's pretty different at the .o/.c level < 1564361420 170046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: should i put a fancy 512-byte dos demo in the MZ stub in windows binaries i generate < 1564361430 421632 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, even Linux has multiple methods. < 1564361445 607510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the encoding in the executable is pretty similar, but the toolchain to get there is radically different < 1564361485 263472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way things work toolchain-wise in Windows is more explicit than on Linux, it's actually a bit easier for tools like aimake to handle because there are clear dependencies between all the steps < 1564361502 382132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas on Linux, a .so acts as its own import library, which makes, e.g., circular dependencies between .so files hard to intentionally construct) < 1564361502 666610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Linux libraries use relocation rather than position-independent code (I think this is pretty rare nowadays). < 1564361522 459555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that only works with 32-bit code IIRC < 1564361522 596165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for a long time (maybe still?) Windows DLL addresses were randomized at boot time rather than load time. < 1564361555 828691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't understand how Windows import libraries work or why you'd want them. < 1564361571 955116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you generate them from DLLs? < 1564361583 339878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can generate them from more or less anything < 1564361601 51574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need is a list of functions to import, pretty much (maybe also some information about their calling convention, I forget if you need that) < 1564361604 872115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I use them rather than just using DLLs directly? < 1564361605 660426 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried ton generate one for a dll, failed because the tool couldn't do it for the ... calling convention in question iirc < 1564361607 424086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can either be explicit or extracted from some file < 1564361628 30067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the import library is what you /link against/ to be able to use the DLL < 1564361640 673070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't the DLL itself, just the code/data to link to it < 1564361650 913587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean: If I'm writing a compiler/linker, why shouldn't I do it Linux-style rather than generating import libraries first? < 1564361655 602318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting part, and where the value comes from, is you can generate the import library even if you don't have a workinh DLL < 1564361657 282521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*working < 1564361667 91735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it correspond to the PLT section in an ELF file or something? < 1564361668 888609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it makes the dependencies in the build process more fine-grained < 1564361680 811591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of an import library as the "source code" for the PLT < 1564361689 27526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that compiles to produce it < 1564361702 35600 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use a DLL without an import library if you're willing to do the retrieve function calls at runtime stuff < 1564361718 379642 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if any languages make that as convenient as using a DLL with an import library < 1564361728 26311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps a good way to think about it is that the import library is the header file for a DLL < 1564361736 122915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't I just use a header file? < 1564361737 642145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it specifies what functions it has and how to call into them < 1564361747 558182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because those only generate declarations, not code < 1564361769 886251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd make a /lot/ of sense to combine implibs and header files, except that C is the wrong language for it < 1564361784 95004 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, if I'm making up a language, why shouldn't I just use something like a header file, is what I meant. > 1564361787 454219 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64760&oldid=64711 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+299) 10Ask User: A for ideas < 1564361796 7460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were creating a new language you would probably make a (header file + static library) or (header file + import library) combination as its own thing < 1564361812 909861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas (header file + shared library) doesn't work because you don't want to compile the shared library into your source code < 1564361827 146212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you're making up a language you should probably get rid of header files entirely for most uses. < 1564361839 742141 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Import libraries are the only place where you'd want things that look like headers. < 1564361844 366295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't want header files that are textually included, like C has < 1564361856 486574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do want some way to specify the API of code you don't have access to because it's in a library < 1564361869 759357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also don't want declarations that appear twice. < 1564361888 120210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it makes sense for externally linked things. < 1564361915 357790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this all makes sense. < 1564361931 766961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, one thing that strikes me about languages is that working out the API of a file you're linking against is kind-of a major problem, that different languages solve (or fail to solve) in very different ways < 1564361949 363307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also ant to be able to cross-compile things without access to the DLLs or import libraries (I think kernel32.lib normally comes with Visual Studio or something?). < 1564361964 720821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in OCaml, the compiler can extract an interface from a file, and you can then compile against that, but writing the interfaces manually is also common < 1564361994 318708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Java, the compiler wants access to either the source or binary you're linking against, and extracts declarations from that, but this is a pretty painful process and requires doing things like giving files specific names so that the compiler can find them < 1564362023 795537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a good point, an ideal implib equivalent wouldn't be platform-specific < 1564362056 697904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although maybe it at least needs to be specific to things like target word sizes < 1564362117 755001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the import library specifies an ABI, so it makes sense for it to specify platform-specific things? < 1564362291 808370 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564362297 523551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1564362302 289228 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1564362322 16330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm… if you're writing vectorised code by hand, what instruction set should you aim for? < 1564362337 845721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to use VPCMOV but it turns out my processor doesn't support it < 1564362338 458706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The target architecture's? < 1564362348 686181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you want other people to use the program < 1564362356 956162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you aim for x86_64 as that's what most people have < 1564362362 278774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1564362371 951719 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on how many people you want to use your thing. < 1564362372 72466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what vector instructions do most people have on their processors and which ones might be less well supported? < 1564362391 285414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the manual I have in which VPCMOV is documented dates from 2005 < 1564362410 817952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2019 now and my processor still doesn't support it, so maybe some instructions are just omitted intentionally on some processors < 1564362426 960983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's SSE4? < 1564362431 759186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your processor? < 1564362446 844361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-7100U CPU @ 2.40GHz < 1564362476 181650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that AVX2 might be a good cutoff point < 1564362482 201054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure it's not supported? < 1564362484 6728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know < 1564362493 9535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel says it supports SSE4. < 1564362496 133832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I compiled a program that used it and got SIGILL when it tried to execute < 1564362501 215834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an XOP instruction I think < 1564362527 509712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see, I misread. < 1564362545 349075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently AMD changed their mind about XOP and removed it again < 1564362559 917429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have some documentation of apparently very useful instructions that ended up not being implemented < 1564362656 150195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which instructions? < 1564362676 653658 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At one point I wanted AVX2 and there was no CPU available that had it. < 1564362684 160454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that was years ago and it's probably reasonable to target by now. < 1564362698 723286 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niyftdharlfgogth QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564362781 893433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VPCMOV and some of the permutation instructions seem like the most useful XOP instructions < 1564362789 881669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :horizontal adds could be useful in some algorithms too < 1564362819 263176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the vectorised shifts/rotates are XOP, which surprises me, I thought they'd have been introduced long ago > 1564362941 59373 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Renumbering14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64761&oldid=64756 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+267) 10/* Example programs */ Infinite Counter < 1564362976 290144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so apparently Intel and AMD had their own competing ways to write vectorised shifts and rotates? < 1564363126 127239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, no, PSLLW and friends hvae indeed been around for ages, now I'm really confused < 1564363179 907833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, the relevant case is shifts where different components get shifted different distances, i.e. vectorising << over both args, not just the left arg < 1564363334 698078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's less useful, then < 1564364250 114538 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By using the pointer table, the loader does not need to fixup all of the places in the code that want to use the api call, all it has to do is add the pointer to a single place in a table and its work is done. " < 1564364252 907941 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sandsprite.com/CodeStuff/Understanding_imports.html < 1564364538 973065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like the PLT. < 1564364694 955065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know why ELF files usually have the program headers at the beginning of the file and the section headers at the end? < 1564364706 886273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it an artifact of how they're usually generated, a section at a time? < 1564364849 144513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: Are you writing fancy code to generate PE files too? < 1564364884 474831 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Learning about DOS to write a driver-level emulator for a DOS VR device, and started becoming curious about Windows < 1564365244 60236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you also figure out Mac OS while you're at it? < 1564365261 178965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has a similar story to Windows, except system calls are somewhat more stable. < 1564365380 921867 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about Mac (and I'm pretty sure Mac would have two stories. X and before X). But AmigaOS is fascinating. Multitasking without virtual memory by using relocation. I think Windows at least doesn't bother relocating the .exe being run most of the time, but Amiga has to < 1564365425 981643 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Amiga, 0x04 is a special location containing a pointer into an "Exec" library, and offsets of that are used to find Exec functions including ones for using other libraries. < 1564365455 142568 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the entire kernel is run in the user ring < 1564365669 35880 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classic Mac OS was kinda funky -- it didn't have multitasking until a decent bit in. < 1564365743 400544 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reminds me, is Commodore 64 considered to have multitasking? It's... possible to run two programs at once sort of, but it's hard to be sure they'll both not occupy the same memory < 1564365754 938960 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess more like a TSR than real multitasking < 1564366206 295378 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did Classic Mac OS ever need its memory defragmented? I remember reading about ... something like that, I think in a book about using Macs. < 1564366253 416580 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :These days paging sort of makes that irrelevant, memory locations don't need to be physically next to each other to be virtually next to each other < 1564366270 694704 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :After Mac OS 7, it also had virtual memory and a 32-bit address space. < 1564366282 602196 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is also when it actually shipped with multitasking) < 1564366704 443993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's pretty clear now why it's generated that way. < 1564366937 885108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so apparently Intel and AMD implemented incompatible versions of fused multiply-add, then both changed to support the other's version and dropped their own previous version < 1564366971 805230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, though, they're pretty much compatible up to AVX2 < 1564367025 392952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas AMD hasn't yet started supporting Intel's new AVX-512 (which is admittedly pretty ridiculous, it contains so many features it needs a 4-byte /prefix/ on every operation in addition to things like the ModRM byte and opcode) > 1564367177 260304 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64762&oldid=64760 5* 03A 5* (+194) 10 < 1564367222 420744 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't AVX-512 the one that's also really hard to use effectively, because just using it forces a downclock for some fraction of a second? > 1564367256 688912 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64763&oldid=64762 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10/* Race conditions */ < 1564367440 757958 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any pokemon battle where each player may have a computer with three pokemons that you can exchange between each battle if you do best of three, like you can with side cards in Magic: the Gathering? > 1564367526 971920 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Sidex14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64764&oldid=64755 5* 03A 5* (+485) 10 > 1564367598 331954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sidex14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64765&oldid=64752 5* 03A 5* (-73) 10 < 1564368292 77199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the Battle Factory mode in Pokémon Emerald/Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver is sort of like that: you start by being given 6 random Pokémon and pick a team of 3 of them, then play 3v3 against computer opponents, whenever you win you can swap one of your Pokémon with one of theirs, whenever you lose you have to restart from the start < 1564368308 300434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not quite the same rules as you were describing but it's close < 1564368356 160339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Pokémon Black 2/White 2 have Mix Battles at the PWT, which is even closer to what you said: each player brings a team of 3 Pokémon, then chooses one of their opponents Pokémon and battles with the one they chose + the 2 the opponents didn't choose < 1564368379 632184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I misread < 1564368412 61578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're talking about a sideboarding equivalent, that's already used in standard tournament rules: each player brings six Pokémon, sees the opponents six, then chooses four to battle with < 1564368426 180430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like sideboarding in M:tG except you get to do it right from the start of the game < 1564368782 435591 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564368930 825197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564368941 706680 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1564370506 801714 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there certain topics that are easier to learn or find information on if you know a language that isn't english? I guess english could be included... I'm not sure how to search for what I'm thinking of on google < 1564370609 98035 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it even isn't on Google. Or even if it is, may be difficult to find for other reasons, such as how the searching ranking is work, or on the wording they use difference from your wording (they try to make it work anyways, but it doesn't always work so well), etc < 1564370667 412017 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm thinkiing of things like Ruby used to be more popular in japan as well as trading candlesticks for various currency markets < 1564370799 408285 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564371105 807364 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1564371162 882552 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hotspot is so bad I can't even do a speed test and my lag on irssi goes from 0 to 200 something and back and forth... its really bad < 1564371186 266579 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I don't know if half of my messages make it into the channel type of bad < 1564371387 675119 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont-panic, fiction originally in non-English languages. I like a thing called the Evillious Chronicles, but the novels are in Japanese < 1564371398 813727 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The songs are also in Japanese but most of them have good English subtitles) < 1564371469 376979 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just unfathomable the amount of infromation in even one language, and then to think we have like 7111 languages, 23 of which are the main ones... what information am I missing out on? < 1564371523 399793 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily the ramayana and vasistha's yoga were translated among other items from sandscrit... but its just kind of mind blowing to think about what you'd be able to figure out if you knew like 7 or 8 languages fluently < 1564371583 465821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is log for this IRC, so you can check if the messages are in the channel. < 1564371601 818663 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do they only log on success? < 1564371664 211402 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using irssi and for some reason ubuntu keeps thinking I hit page up and page down 10 or so times when I hit it once... its impossible to loook up further than the monitor allows < 1564371856 821514 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been learning russian, but now I think I might switch over to chinese since there's more chinese and english speakers than most of the other languages combined < 1564371939 465068 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chinese writing system is so hard though ;_; < 1564372037 202158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :higan < 1564372103 796938 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1564372105 748694 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's new < 1564372146 13527 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont-panic: It logs the message if the logging bot received the message. If it was sent to the channel, then all clients on that channel will receive it. < 1564372269 218415 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont-panic: I worked on an OCaml related thing in uni and took advantage of the fact that my project partner knew a little French and could read docs that weren't translated to English < 1564372320 677401 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it involved internals of the OCaml VM so not as well documented as the user level stuff) > 1564372695 282485 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64766&oldid=64763 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10/* Race conditions */ < 1564373195 599006 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: chinese writing may look hard, but if its your first language, you wouldn't know it was... the same as those with chinese as a first language probably squirm at english... our characters and sounds are all weird to them too lol < 1564373220 57995 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :chinese has thousands of symbols you have to learn < 1564373223 909935 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :english has 26, give or take < 1564373233 361583 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russian is the same... not entirely true < 1564373250 115105 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :chinese has thousands of combined symbols < 1564373273 782685 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. hill is like ^ and mountains is 3x ^ spaced weird < 1564373309 5212 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the same as prefix's and postfixes or whatever and particles in english or other languages < 1564373363 102763 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thousands of symbols made from combining symbols < 1564373391 5206 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how else would one be able to use a standard keyboard to type mandarin or kanji? < 1564373495 998000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0xeb; .byte 00' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564373496 770734 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: eb 00 jmp 2 <_start+0x2> < 1564373510 817742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'.globl _start\n_start:\n.byte 0xeb; .byte 00; int3' > /tmp/test.s; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s; objdump -d /tmp/test.o < 1564373511 661137 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /tmp/test.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <_start>: \ 0: eb 00 jmp 2 <_start+0x2> \ 2: cc int3 < 1564373523 315861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess eb 00 is also a nop. < 1564373800 522782 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :сказок жен, их уже такой как ты ГОГ LOL ГОГ ROFL < 1564373819 425772 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :^those aren't any easier for me to understand than chinese would be lol < 1564373825 814560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode LOL < 1564373826 967412 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+004C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L] [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+004C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L] < 1564373892 918044 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in russian p's are r's and b's are v's... along with a lot of weird stuff going on. sounding it out becomes a pain when transitioning from english and remembering where keys are on the keyboard gets weird too... < 1564373917 637711 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xahlee.info/kbd/i2/Russian_keyboard_windows_layout_78067.png < 1564373929 189763 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's 5 b's on that thing < 1564373979 797239 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f's look like they belong in a schematic work book... 'ф' < 1564374087 562004 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :№ <-- that's one of my favorite keys lol < 1564374154 451607 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is it №1? < 1564374171 466148 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :№1 in all of russia < 1564377504 164259 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that Aquinas's proof of existence of God is illogical, because the conclusion contradicts the premise. However, the suggestion of infinite regress, that would satisfy the conditions, even though, they say it is impossible. Such infinite regress, the "end" (which still goes on anyways by infinitely) can then be "God". < 1564377918 31589 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think such thing? < 1564378028 300597 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564381065 447250 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@galateya.tenet.odessa.ua JOIN :#esoteric < 1564381257 690814 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned my idea of cfork() for Plan10 on here before, and then one way to implement fork() by: #define fork() (cfork()?:detach()) < 1564381713 511662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is cfork? What is Plan10? < 1564382047 787675 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@galateya.tenet.odessa.ua QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564382180 753566 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i hear plan10 < 1564382182 404926 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elaborate < 1564382364 691756 :moony24!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1564382372 220833 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just a idea I had, about a alternative of Plan9 and Unix, which is compatible with Unix but also has some differences. (If you do not define plan10main() then the linker can substitute the default implementation, which sets up some compatibility with Unix and then calls main().) < 1564382380 588231 :moony24!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world < 1564382394 691706 :moony24!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony_ < 1564382485 679457 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what kind of differences? < 1564382490 34611 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The cfork() function will fork, but all memory and registers (including the program counter) are shared until execve(), _exit(), or detach() is called. If successful, cfork() returns 0 (to the child process; it does not return any value to the parent process). In this case, execve() returns zero if successful. < 1564382602 896366 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, i don't see what can be done with cfork that can't be done with normal fork < 1564382682 485028 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if, theoretically, both programs have the exact same state as you described, it'd just have the same behavior as forking at the point the programs diverge < 1564382682 981670 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seem a better interface to me, and also seems like it may be able to be more efficient in some cases. < 1564382731 957937 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two processes do not have the exact same state; they still have their own process ID, file descriptors, etc (although the file descriptors are initially inherited). < 1564382803 993209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds eerily similar to vfork < 1564382868 724426 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is similar, but there are some differences. (For one thing, vfork() is not guaranteed to be different from fork().) < 1564383005 915600 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it is not allowed to return from the function vfork() was called in the child process, and the behaviour may depend on what is stored in registers, and so on; with cfork the registers are shared too (including the program counter). < 1564383249 492709 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would that be feasibly implemented on x86_64 without just setting a flag and no-oping < 1564383398 399516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony_: yeah I'd also think it sets a flag that modifies the behavior of execve. < 1564383417 791315 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kernel would probably copy some stuff, select the new process, and then just continue the same program with the new process ID. < 1564383419 102243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reserves a PID? < 1564383482 982482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony_: or it could be like vfork except that on child termination or execve, state is copied back to the parent. < 1564383516 221135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(state being the registers...) < 1564383523 942088 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once it is detached, then it would create a new saved register set for it, I suppose. < 1564383537 907545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, that could also be a way to implement it, I suppose. < 1564383561 924882 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well uh, two processes with the exact same deterministic behavior seems kinda useless in practice < 1564383578 284838 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd be very easy to break the illusion via, say, RDRAND < 1564383620 824918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah quantum < 1564383637 112746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something trivial like getpid() ;-) < 1564383662 538270 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who am i" "you are a split personality" < 1564383705 422191 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use getpid(); if used before it is detached, it will return the child process ID, but you can store it in a variable, and then after it is detached, the value (which is the child process ID) will still be visible to the parent. < 1564383731 580298 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :could add a brand new error value to handle the CFORK state when calling certain syscalls < 1564383757 294021 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... < 1564383761 491549 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is two processes < 1564383769 377931 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically syscalls should be done twice < 1564383776 88263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony_: no, I don't think it's really two processes. < 1564383788 157660 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The parent process won't execute until the child is detached, so getpid() will always return the child process ID. Any system calls will be executed in the child process, too.) < 1564383829 602895 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1564383832 651043 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get it now < 1564383837 822850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony_: the way zzo38 describes it, only the child runs (like vfork) and the parent is revived upon executing execve() (and sees the return code of that) < 1564383839 466997 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can ignore me because I am a derp < 1564383842 815458 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564383887 897848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or only upon *successfully* executing execve? < 1564383940 441595 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if successful, then the parent sees zero as the return value of execve(). If execve() is not successful, it returns -1 to the child, and the parent is not revived. < 1564384069 897981 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully that explains it? < 1564384144 614915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so what does the child do if it doesn't find any executable to execute? < 1564384195 632723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, at some point you need to give up, and pass control back to the parent anyway. < 1564384265 930190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; then you can just call _exit() in the child, which causes the parent to continue; or detach(), which causes both the parent and child to continue. < 1564384302 667235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1564384318 23508 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Remember that fork() is the same as (cfork()?:detach()).) > 1564384909 284617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BlobVM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64767 5* 03Void 5* (+7367) 10Create BlobVM < 1564384947 909975 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgjkrhqndejjzbmq JOIN :#esoteric > 1564384972 364037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64768&oldid=64759 5* 03Void 5* (+13) 10Add BlobVM < 1564384994 821769 :dont-panic!~Andipanic@225.sub-174-224-158.myvzw.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564385059 550873 :moony_!482a977e@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1564385132 969041 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Void 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Little.png10]]" > 1564385343 265410 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BlobVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64770&oldid=64767 5* 03Void 5* (-1573) 10Add capability example > 1564385843 428128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BlobVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64771&oldid=64770 5* 03Void 5* (+424) 10Add data structure overview > 1564385877 518922 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BlobVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64772&oldid=64771 5* 03Void 5* (+0) 10Fix list > 1564386021 537250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BlobVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64773&oldid=64772 5* 03Void 5* (-346) 10/* Cooperative resource sharing between devices */ < 1564386328 25652 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I rename an article? < 1564386351 360740 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i can move it > 1564386374 712904 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Void 5* 10moved [[02BlobVM10]] to [[KeyVM]]: Rename VM > 1564386453 105588 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07KeyVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64776&oldid=64774 5* 03Void 5* (-3) 10Rename from blobVM to keyVM > 1564386519 744877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64777&oldid=64768 5* 03Void 5* (-1) 10Rename from blobVM to keyVM < 1564386881 421304 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like to play solitaire Scrabble? My highest score so far is 699 < 1564387227 256999 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564387339 188783 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My highest score so far is 700. < 1564387362 399079 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But not in solitaire Scrabble. That's just my score in life.) < 1564387475 668804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the measure? sheets of sheet music? < 1564387516 7807 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564387571 91823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Points. < 1564387597 845416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.......... .......... .......... .......... .. < 1564387616 931699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh maybe it's your Chinese social score. < 1564387699 743591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 700*12 < 1564387703 420175 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8400 < 1564387709 439195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 700*20 < 1564387712 296376 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 14000 < 1564387782 9825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you objecting to not being swatted for that pun? I'm not oerjan. < 1564387784 519121 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564387827 643692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm just riding the wave. < 1564387836 197676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think that multiplier is backwards. < 1564387843 165674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :700 is 35 score < 1564387863 332316 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was working with a a 700 score. < 1564387869 907638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a a/a/ < 1564387882 286239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my score = 700, then my = 35 < 1564387916 255966 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a point. < 1564387922 504049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Does that bring it up to 701?) < 1564388909 372543 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1564389896 907612 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:An Odd Rewriting System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64778&oldid=64723 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+1944) 10I don't see "predict parity on the left" being a problem. < 1564390932 242259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564390935 971618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1564391140 648124 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we have an esowiki->IRC bridge, I think the obvious next step would be to build an IRC->esowiki bridge < 1564391169 806943 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. I said that in jest, but now I'm not so sure < 1564391269 214286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does sound like a terrible idea. < 1564391344 598396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp sink < 1564391346 338674 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :helsinki:Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland. < 1564391359 885984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`" < 1564391360 606379 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1229) boily: the proc is invoked. before or after the evaluator transfers control to a certain class of anime characters with long hair and loud music \ 847) The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now the mayans warned us Warned you of what? The solstice? yes < 1564392136 819078 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fvmvwamynnueoztp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564392140 435644 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-oxmrtvzktptzecev QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564392146 957680 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-pdockqnpojeaongh QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564392163 278865 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-izcoopzzcxmovbaf QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564392175 49821 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how .a files work? < 1564392185 425574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond them being ar archives, a collection of .o files? no < 1564392193 838994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they'd be very simple but there's no formal specification and I'm confused. < 1564392214 207713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular I think there's some magic on top for better indexing) < 1564392437 33445 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on a very quick look at creating one with 'ar', it does look fairly simple < 1564392470 565033 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps unsurprisingly, not too far from tar < 1564392514 48587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfreetype.a, hopefully without loss of generality < 1564392567 597192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think I see. < 1564392642 987196 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxraelzmjvobknii JOIN :#esoteric < 1564392685 120707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's a symbol lookup table. < 1564392692 753717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking in the wrong place. < 1564392781 314042 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I untar an .a file will it create a file for each symbol, please say it does > 1564393042 516398 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07KeyVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64779&oldid=64776 5* 03Void 5* (-9) 10/* Distinguishing features */ < 1564393071 942223 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564393844 236079 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx JOIN :#esoteric < 1564393844 295844 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mvgifkxidxodrkvx JOIN :#esoteric < 1564393853 637864 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cmxykylbzvixyrym JOIN :#esoteric < 1564394526 912305 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgjkrhqndejjzbmq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564397337 667079 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So apparently sections aren't used for running a program at all? < 1564397346 79785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it only for debugging? < 1564397634 622413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders where shachaf is going with all this
< 1564397710 482391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But programs have sections too, don't they... executable bits, read-only data bits, zero-initialized read/writable bits... < 1564397740 138396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have segments which specify what's mapped into memory. < 1564397787 359619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the .bss section and .plt section and .rodata and so on were used for that but apparently not? < 1564397961 692744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing a compiler, maybe. Or just understanding things? < 1564397977 256713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are more important problems in the compiler thing than this, of course. < 1564398142 355359 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sections are used for computing offsets during linking, I think < 1564398164 670018 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once those offsets have been computed, the running program doesn't need to care what they were < 1564398169 42715 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in that sense they're not used < 1564398207 485734 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think I mean "segment", don't know if that's different from "section" or not < 1564398288 547814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean section? < 1564398328 965125 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might mean section < 1564398333 448299 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a long time < 1564398359 726314 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sections are required for object files and optional for executable files, and segments are the other way around. < 1564398597 587860 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly what I remember is that the .bss section is for uninitialized data. The linker needs to decide where in memory it will be, but doesn't need to give it any particular contents. < 1564398626 8516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But apparently the ELF loader doesn't care about it at all. < 1564398684 980724 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The linker might merge it and other sections into a single segment, as long as there's enough space in that segment for all the variables. < 1564398696 589331 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really have no idea, actually < 1564398713 941983 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going from fuzzy memories to plausible inferences < 1564398808 907825 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine there are probably a dozen people in this channel who know this like the back of their hand...? < 1564399225 721958 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O (what is more complex, ELF or PE?) < 1564399279 645081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know PE. < 1564399296 623179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I looked at a PE file today, it seems OK. < 1564399330 942880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF does not contain an a.out stub that prints a useless message. :P < 1564399426 566876 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can put whatever you want in there. < 1564399429 859410 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0x3c < 1564399433 264544 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 60 < 1564399441 568130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first 60 bytes are up to you. < 1564399474 104549 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, you need the MZ header, of course. < 1564399481 907231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :superficially they look to be of similar complexity. < 1564399527 882547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ELF may have more extensions? I don't know.) < 1564399576 82773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the extensions were mostly special sections, which technically do not increase the file format complexity... just the complexity of making sense of the contents. < 1564399589 192219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.gnu.hash! < 1564399622 303519 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the .gnu.hash section was used for dynamic linking, but apparently the information is in the DYNAMIC segment which is what actually matters. < 1564400423 278013 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1564402059 264862 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tsb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64780 5* 03Sec-iiiso 5* (+5262) 10Created page with "'''Tsb''' is a programming language that compiles to [[Seabass]] and was made to simplify coding in it, while retaining many of Seabass's design choices. ==Basics== ===Genera..." > 1564402105 545228 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07KeyVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64781&oldid=64779 5* 03Void 5* (+59) 10/* See also */ < 1564402334 618833 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1564402831 197622 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tsb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64782&oldid=64780 5* 03Sec-iiiso 5* (+225) 10/* General */ < 1564403016 612074 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564404348 168872 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1564404845 502231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hanzlu 5* 10New user account > 1564405094 40298 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64783&oldid=64693 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+142) 10 < 1564405209 336656 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564405225 976284 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564407343 223415 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564407504 618344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64784 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+2995) 10Created page with "ACL (Advanced Computer Language) is a language created in 2019. Its memory consists of binary cells, with the values 0 or 1. The commands in the language code are Hexadecimal..." > 1564407598 572211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64785&oldid=64777 5* 03Sec-iiiso 5* (+10) 10/* T */ > 1564407636 352453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64786&oldid=64784 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+14) 10 > 1564408000 14772 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64787&oldid=64786 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+79) 10 > 1564408162 519612 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64788&oldid=64787 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+41) 10 < 1564408845 375581 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564409287 655441 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564409327 65746 :Melvar!~melvar@ltea-178-014-120-010.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564409850 601559 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64789&oldid=64788 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+338) 10 < 1564410167 229274 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564412217 845311 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 > 1564412542 996883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Renumbering14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64790&oldid=64761 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+127) 10Primer < 1564416155 614575 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564416181 232623 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564416355 222360 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564417210 635938 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wleperkqrffdtmmn JOIN :#esoteric < 1564417800 720012 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564417972 212417 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564420078 500890 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564420174 637204 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564420199 159393 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im thinking of creating a computer that uses an esolang as its native machine code. < 1564420222 26044 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ive already figured out what I would need to do this, thanks to quora < 1564420237 290679 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I need an esolang to implement < 1564420329 292912 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone has an esolang thats simple enough to be workable machine code, and elaborate enough to be used to perform useful computations, I'd appreciate it < 1564420366 843268 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564420580 843456 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1564420710 132906 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MISC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64791&oldid=54347 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-9) 10/* Origin of the name */ < 1564420882 540806 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reallycooluserna: I have some ideas, but you left immediately after asking your question for some reason. how do you think IRC works, exactly? < 1564421593 834948 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1564421594 584474 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :330) are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies < 1564422146 232899 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564422327 195885 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564425931 549490 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564426050 170741 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is what they do all the time. < 1564426060 314931 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually leave after asking a question, since I don't wan to wait on the chat until someone answers. I instead go do something else and wait, and then check the logs for some answers. < 1564426072 949982 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also what A did all the time, though the claim is that they're a different person. < 1564426094 682056 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did A do? < 1564426293 622669 :Reallycooluserna!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net NICK :ARCUN < 1564426609 16743 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: one of your previous questions was pretty mysterious :D let me look for it… < 1564426619 112746 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, here it was: Can anyone give me tips as to how to make a good C++ Compiler? < 1564426619 909352 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: you have to leave the channel and wait for the answer or it won't work < 1564426676 577609 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: did you mean a compiler written in C++ or (what I thought of) a full-blown compiler of C++ itself? < 1564426803 791808 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter should be a massive task, as C++ is a language wih a huge specification, even if one is to take one of its older versions < 1564426807 550440 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1564426870 695278 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former can have some specifics regarding C++, but usually writing a compiler (in a normal language) is more or less the same < 1564427248 551329 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564427329 627519 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant writing a compiler IN C++. Writing a compiler for C++ would be the end of me. < 1564427408 422089 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im asking because I need to make a compiler for a minimalistic esolang for a computer that runs that esolamg as its machine code < 1564427415 769256 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564428625 682911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My program is segfaulting in the ELF interpreter, before getting to my entry point. < 1564428635 66021 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to tell gdb to break early enough. < 1564429049 549869 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564429096 690942 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: can you explicitly invoke the interpreter as a program? < 1564429274 801958 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What are the ideas you said you had regarding the esoteric computer? < 1564429320 847463 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1564429463 276667 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would be easy to implement any simple state machine like thing such as Brainfuck < 1564429467 882631 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Verilog or VHDL < 1564429473 231941 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've done it actually, loooooong time ago < 1564429526 245430 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was thinking of a language that used 1 byte constructions, to maximize space like brainfuck < 1564429557 627731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I could, but that would go through a different code path. < 1564429565 836190 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but using brainfuck in an eso-computer has already been done more than twice < 1564429671 53414 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah :( < 1564429688 798756 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: inject an INT3 instruction at _start? < 1564429699 801380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that gives me an odd error message. < 1564429702 419568 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there probably is an obscure gdb option to do what you want < 1564429710 383618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it explains what's going on so that's something. < 1564429713 61237 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck did you even do to segfault the ELF interpreter < 1564429715 578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: _start where, in ld.so? < 1564429723 922628 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564429735 46581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :may not have a symbol but I mean whatever its entry point is (which readelf will tell you) < 1564429735 452892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can make a copy of ld.so for testing. < 1564429748 988941 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564429758 561890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm generating my own ELF files so it figures they're malformed. < 1564429765 321242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also made an ELF file that segfaults gdb. < 1564429782 57803 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1564429786 237300 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good old libbfd < 1564429843 779783 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm writing them out myself. < 1564429864 72476 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is ELF? < 1564429922 102636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like ld.so isn't happy that I wasn't mapping the DYNAMIC segment into memory. Which, I mean, fair enough, I guess. < 1564429933 262181 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the file format for executables and libraries used on Linux and many other systems < 1564429937 127647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather I wasn't specifying its address. < 1564429988 777483 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: at its core it is a set of records saying "load this chunk of data to this memory address, with this set of permissions (read / write / execute)" < 1564429995 345427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: In response to the other day, making a dynamically linked PE file seems a lot simpler, probably because it's required. < 1564430013 9089 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: but there are many complexities of course < 1564430035 875926 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564430052 994503 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: if you have access to a Linux system then you can run "readelf -a /bin/ls | less" to see some of this info < 1564430064 350532 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :linkers are so complicated < 1564430065 870180 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also neat < 1564430074 974149 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.iecc.com/linker/ < 1564430082 100574 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just starting to use UNIX through cygwin, so i'll look into it < 1564430111 455738 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I meant writing a compiler IN C++. Writing a compiler for C++ would be the end of me. => okay, thanks < 1564430147 541248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I personally can’t advice about writing on C++, I don’t know it too well < 1564430161 621879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ARCUN/arseniiv/ < 1564430183 286077 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: cygwin uses native Windows binaries, so they will be PE format, not ELF < 1564430208 449028 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin is, roughly speaking, a set of userspace libraries which implement a POSIX compatible userspace for the Windows operating system < 1564430211 871856 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Then what languages do you know? I'm certain you know a language that I know also < 1564430221 579409 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a Linux/UNIX emulator < 1564430236 201183 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564430237 428495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: where? < 1564430239 474590 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :however Windows 10 also has WSL which runs unmodified Linux ELF binaries through a kernel level syscall translation layer < 1564430271 507641 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Then i'll try running ubuntu in a VM < 1564430276 100617 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I found < 1564430278 582627 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: that is a good way to go < 1564430379 340081 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564430381 467748 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I wondered about ELF vs PE because I don’t know either (except that MZ-something header thing, but it’s of course doesn’t matter) < 1564430407 67330 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: yeah I have an Ubuntu in VirtualBox < 1564430476 723130 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I boot it rarely. I definitely need to make myself more familiar with it for the future < 1564430498 943245 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564430544 839939 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1564430662 512340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm still confusil about how things are normally mapped into memory. < 1564430671 868756 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: Then what languages do you know? I'm certain you know a language that I know also => C#, Python, Mathematica are those I written in more or less recently to not forget them too much. Though of course using Mathematica for a VM is a strange thing. OTOH C# and Python allow one to emit their bytecode (and in case of C#, it would then be JIT’ed, which is good, and in case of PyPy Python implementation it should IIRC be so too, but not s < 1564430671 934915 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o with CPython) < 1564430676 2701 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are typically two loaded segments, right? One rw and one rx. < 1564430699 550252 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1564430725 742635 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are presumably both randomized independently. < 1564430760 171380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PLT and data and so on would be in the rw segment. < 1564430765 814624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those at a fixed offset to each other? < 1564430832 549747 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564430857 231812 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv < 1564430883 110401 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Yeah I know C#, it was my first language < 1564430909 543529 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I use C++ a lot more than C#, so i'll have to brush up on it < 1564430984 477509 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wleperkqrffdtmmn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564431047 217354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is yes. < 1564431057 446596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess some fixed offset is randomized and everything is loaded relative to that. < 1564431080 53828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so everything can just do IP-relative addressing to get at data, which is reasonable. < 1564431368 78651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: then if you are not shy of parser combinators, I’d recommend writing parser/lexer for the language chosen in them, it’s good at least as a prototype thing, and some libraries are as good as to allow writing a parser robust enough to show transparent error messages to user or etc.. Also maybe a useful general advice would be to use Expression trees to get compiled methods out of them without having to use Emit class. They both had poor docume < 1564431368 178905 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ntation when I looked it, but the former are clearer semantically, almost a high-level language. If you’ll use C#, that is < 1564431456 566091 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be some parser combinator libraries for C++ too < 1564431505 55944 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll look into that, since I'd like my language to have some extensions < 1564431521 951617 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a math library for starters < 1564431935 97353 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language I had in mind would be called "Xrk", and it would have logic based on Complex numbers. somewhat based on the "NaNs and Flips flops" paper from http://sigbovik.org/2019/proceedings.pdf#page102 < 1564432105 66544 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: It would be minimalistic with maybe 6 or less instructions, but would still have a lot of potential. i'll do everything possible to make it not look like Brainfuck < 1564432134 530305 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: I hope so < 1564432257 337192 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 ? < 1564432359 273511 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my favorite esolangs is FALSE, maybe because it looks pretty writeable/readable (so, not so eso?..) < 1564432379 550428 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1564432437 840399 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like [...] from it, though I don’t know if it was borrowed from some more mainstream stack language < 1564432941 245206 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564433007 346473 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564433641 929640 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564437146 932546 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564437341 834358 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564438772 881486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`smlist 1172 < 1564438773 616419 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :smlist 1172: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale < 1564438777 249070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1564438780 443053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the right list. < 1564438782 75584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1172 < 1564438782 789417 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1172: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1564439278 628541 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564439426 854909 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564439740 216352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564439756 122983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, ais523: in perl, y/x// also works instead of y/x/x/ < 1564440011 352934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: re x86_64 nop and xchg instructions, we tried to figure out how those worked at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-02.html#lwFc < 1564440274 440552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "on Linux, a .so acts as its own import library, which makes, e.g., circular dependencies between .so files hard to intentionally construct" => is that like how if you want to make circular dependencies between modules in haskell or rust, then you need to write "headers" with declarations, which you normally don't have to do because the compiler can tell the declarations from the object file? < 1564440330 307092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas in C or C++, you always write header files if you have more than one compilation unit, because the compiler can't read the declarations from the object files < 1564440347 781661 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whole program compilation is TG. < 1564441175 662988 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good, there was a new olist while I was gone < 1564441693 188750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a book title too, wow < 1564442139 917387 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1564442485 173637 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564442677 850038 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564442810 978816 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564442954 567094 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564444576 697734 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Is Windows's thing of sys calls being undocumented behind a dll a thing that allows WINE to run in userspace? < 1564444592 18287 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, a reverse WINE would need to run as admin and do some tricky stuff, right? < 1564444753 392807 :doesntthiswork!~doesthisw@98-125-168-130.dyn.centurytel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1564444854 251877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, the United Kingdom now has to sacrifice three or four prime ministers every year in order to be able to delay the Brexit forever and have someone to blame for it < 1564444882 913830 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only they could start a Ministry of Brexit, so that they only had to sacrifice the Brexit minister, rather than the prime minister < 1564445761 393644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe the political dragon specifically demands prime ministers < 1564446448 549739 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564446949 504960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, Microsoft's reverse WINE runs in the kernel and does trickery. < 1564446964 631571 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I imagine you could implement it with a debugger or something. < 1564447048 442125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean WSL? < 1564447189 559301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nah, I think if there was a need to emulate windows syscalls by catching the actual syscall, then the linux kernel would just grow an api for user processes to do exactly that < 1564447202 362327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to catch the syscall that is, not to do the whole emulation < 1564447210 285991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does UML work by the way? < 1564447456 583243 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ptrace is already an API to catch syscalls < 1564447473 69232 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and UML is a different architecture from x86 or whatever < 1564447482 388519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, ordinary linux syscalls (all flavors of them), but I don't know if it would catch windows syscalls < 1564447491 5000 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think the "syscalls" are implemented as userspace calls into the user mode linux kernel < 1564447496 729901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564447505 979125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't run ordinary linux binaries in UML, I don't think < 1564447512 590547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1564447521 60809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's why it didn't work when I just tried to copy an x86 binary? < 1564447522 645986 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file /bin/ls < 1564447523 247642 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin/ls: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=3c233e12c466a83aa9b2094b07dbfaa5bd10eccd, stripped < 1564447533 388121 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`uname < 1564447533 930158 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux < 1564447534 329963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would make UML all but useless < 1564447541 921568 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no because we have these things called compilers < 1564447543 268502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nobody would actually compile programs for it < 1564447554 36192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's a different architecture though < 1564447554 337770 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the software people want to run on linux is open source < 1564447558 980383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` uname -a < 1564447559 604214 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1564447573 954575 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I might be wrong, it's been forever since I played with uml < 1564447589 333448 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it does use ptrace for syscall emulation < 1564447594 907740 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it uses it for some weird pagetable manipulation stuff < 1564447605 535502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's some interface other than ptrace < 1564447617 175673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean WSL 1, yes. < 1564447668 864436 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564447934 928722 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ham radio : communication :: esoprogramming : programming < 1564447935 398841 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1564447946 889056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't think so < 1564447958 891356 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://old.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/8lpk45/moon/dzhpm4k/ "the military spent some time and money on this Back In The Old Days, but they stopped doing it because it's dumb as dog shit and horrifically inefficient, which means it is absolutely irresistible for amateur radio operators." < 1564447959 561535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe I'm taking metaphors too seriously < 1564449526 984211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Update: Now "/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ./out.a" runs successfully but just running the program fails. < 1564449531 446750 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1564449588 312163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "out.a" < 1564449619 667044 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I previously called it "out" but that was either too confusing or not confusing enough. < 1564449636 587595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :out.exe ;-) < 1564449659 334125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not call it a.out < 1564449695 271412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not an a.out file. < 1564449703 738413 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, if I called it a.out, it would be an a.out file. < 1564450593 318682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I built a debug musl loader and it's more helpful. < 1564450787 899103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have plenty of ELF files called a.out. < 1564450813 96411 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: does it also crash? < 1564451031 77595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's already crashed in several different ways. < 1564451057 305197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the kernel say anything about it? < 1564451075 18932 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says things like "segfault at 8" < 1564451086 739294 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1564451156 259021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, maybe some symbol didn't get resolved (relocated) properly :) < 1564451168 675165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is so smart.
< 1564451265 352066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wonder how hard it would be to transplant the kernel code into user spaces so it could be traced... < 1564452223 630168 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.182.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564452296 567890 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can emulate a whole virtual machine and debug the kernel that way < 1564453226 72380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, my PT_PHDR header was wrong, that's why. < 1564453308 437156 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that one < 1564453557 272219 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tells the dynamic linker where to find the segment headers. < 1564453620 835021 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564453624 564049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds pretty important < 1564454177 835367 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564454503 946740 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-49.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564454510 461581 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564455000 433802 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess? < 1564455025 169249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems kind of silly because it's the first segment itself. < 1564455036 894433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, some segment header, maybe not the first. < 1564460410 701815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells tyhe kernel what to map into memory in the first place < 1564460411 355594 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564460448 573605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which /may/ explain the difference between executing the thing and asking ld.so to load it for you...) < 1564460479 378302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all AFAIUI, which isn't very far.) < 1564460554 309992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: No, those are the LOAD segments. < 1564460589 776416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone posted this method for 2-out-of-3 secret sharing with xor: https://github.com/wybiral/tshare/blob/master/tshare.go < 1564460602 502060 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like there should be a simpler way than that. < 1564460728 648388 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.182.9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564460823 713436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/409.pdf < 1564461013 396374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not. < 1564462017 791154 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the simplest possible 2-of-3 sharing scheme? Say for sharing 1 bit. < 1564462125 301201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The natural thing to my mind is interpolating a linear polynomial over GF(2^2). < 1564462286 840321 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it ends up being more complicated than what you get if you mask part of the messages: http://paste.debian.net/1093525/ < 1564462365 285581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say the bit is b (0 or 1) and we flip a 3-sided coin to a random value r (0 or 1 or 2). We give person p the value (b + r + p) % 3 < 1564462378 504054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that doesn't even let you recover the message, what am I saying. < 1564462402 744925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a different scheme and I obviously simplified it too much. < 1564462675 868865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, of course working modulo 3 works. Distribute r, m+r, 2m+r to the parties. < 1564462712 804511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m is the secret message to be shared; r is random modulo 3) < 1564462763 746033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's better than the scheme I wrote out. < 1564462780 655257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, the working scheme I wrote in a text file here, not the one I wrote above which was nonsense.) < 1564462843 119822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is dual to the polynomial interpolation (the message is in the linear term now, not the constant term). < 1564463670 124606 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://paste.debian.net/1093526/ ... so this can be thought of as polynomial interpolation over GF(2^2) :-) < 1564463731 13532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. < 1564464194 333194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah I'm missing a ' at the end. < 1564464702 557000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i but what's x'? < 1564464916 868174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :x comes from the representation of GF(2^2). < 1564464956 368534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(polynomials in x over GF(2) modulo x^2+x+1) < 1564464991 329182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's x, not x' < 1564465074 195090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1564465096 545266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what you did there. I don't approve. I should've written "near the end". < 1564470821 253744 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564471526 664667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:An Odd Rewriting System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64792&oldid=64778 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+361) 10I admit defeat < 1564471868 815001 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Design for a pathological language, take 3: Fix an enumeration Tn of TMs and an enumeration of sentences Sn in Presburger Arithmetic. Input is . Check if Sn is valid (V) or invalid (I). If it matches 2nd element of pair, simulate Tn, else nop. < 1564471936 612242 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still a problem: you want the two enumerations to be "different enough" from each other, but how do you guarantee that? < 1564472008 626411 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe every 100th n there's an instance of PresA that's easy, and a TM that's useful. < 1564472120 423415 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess the bigger question is: if I'm so bad at math, why do I even try to do it? < 1564472485 490195 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564472494 355985 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1564472942 572865 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bad at software too, because to be good at software, you need to be charismatic and live in California. < 1564473698 979180 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564473775 587504 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564473891 849330 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564474200 879991 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1564474716 142589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64793&oldid=64783 5* 03PCC 5* (+99) 10 < 1564474836 608357 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-igrwvuapzenxmbay QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564475933 588104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-71.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564475957 491685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-71.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: for secret sharing, see David Madore's program with which he has unknowingly won the IOCCC: ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c > 1564476161 452336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64794 5* 03PCC 5* (+682) 10what is What Mains Numbers and how to can you program with it? < 1564476186 227347 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1564476387 187202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64795&oldid=64785 5* 03PCC 5* (+26) 10/* W */ < 1564478492 230248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564478969 860157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-71.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564479272 912297 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, version 1.0 of the Haskell Report was published on the first of April 1990 < 1564479282 218716 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's been an elaborate April Fools' joke that got out of hand < 1564480478 602153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564480960 530606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1564482997 254904 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564483027 382062 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it certainly got out of hand, but I think it wasn't a joke < 1564483203 787512 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was an April Fool's Serious < 1564483219 720581 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like GMail < 1564483243 948122 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564483263 509584 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kvxckugusmtmacpz JOIN :#esoteric < 1564484222 313212 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1564485588 385879 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564485834 198329 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564485842 498611 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564485894 883763 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Client Quit < 1564485959 289580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ldd out.a statically linked < 1564485968 574555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ file out.a < 1564485982 103353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :out.a: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/l, not stripped < 1564486054 508989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does ldd do? collect the shared objects linked in and spout that message if it comes up with nothing? < 1564486059 991906 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: try objdump -x < 1564486088 447345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what ldd does. < 1564486132 249279 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564486153 547413 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, I didn't know about pldd < 1564486157 639303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ldd invokes the standard dynamic linker with the LD_TRACE_LOADED_OBJECTS environment variable set to 1." < 1564486163 847314 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that objdump is a cross-utility, it can read the executables of any platform on any platform < 1564486221 512404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I also didn't know that ldd was a shell script. < 1564486243 156672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that it used that mechanism. < 1564486253 794683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only platforms it knows about. < 1564486262 541110 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, didn't ldd use to use a more esoteric interface to communicate with the dynamic linker, where instead of an env-var, it invoked the program with argc being zero? < 1564486271 835638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump won't tell me anything I don't already know, since I generated this ELF file myself byte by byte. < 1564486299 22054 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564486301 546528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it won't tell me anything about my program. < 1564486318 112390 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it could tell you something if you don't fully understand how the ELF format works < 1564486319 158397 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea was to learn what wasn't compliant about it. < 1564486363 742751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, using ld.so totally messes up my nice strace output. < 1564486371 595852 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you made a mistake or something < 1564486382 586302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` strace -fo tmp/OUT /bin/true < 1564486383 458819 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564486420 535433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/OUT < 1564486421 320436 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/OUT < 1564486439 609157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What! That's a lot nicer than I get on my system. < 1564486465 814407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ strace /bin/true |& grep 'ld\.so\.nohwcap' | wc -l < 1564486465 991103 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 < 1564486712 954214 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they both x86_64? < 1564486759 370428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is. < 1564486773 327110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ strace /bin/true |& wc -l < 1564486773 466237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 < 1564486794 391232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I guess I should try calling into libc and then ldd will probably call it dynamic. < 1564486816 328351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for that I'd need a bunch of things like a PLT and real relocations or something. < 1564486828 908247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My "assembler" has very primitve fixups for local jumps but that's it. < 1564486856 98853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` objdump -x /bin/true # x86_64 here too < 1564486856 860195 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ /bin/true: file format elf64-x86-64 \ /bin/true \ architecture: i386:x86-64, flags 0x00000150: \ HAS_SYMS, DYNAMIC, D_PAGED \ start address 0x0000000000001670 \ \ Program Header: \ PHDR off 0x0000000000000040 vaddr 0x0000000000000040 paddr 0x0000000000000040 align 2**3 \ filesz 0x00000000000001f8 memsz 0x00000000000001f8 flags r-x \ INTERP off 0x0000000000000238 vaddr 0x0000000000000238 paddr 0x0000000000000238 align 2**0 \ < 1564486927 32022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, you need a hash table and GOT and probably a GNU hash table and all sorts of things. < 1564486983 311989 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe they differ in /proc settings about address randomizatio or something? < 1564486984 590465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, running ld.so directly tells me what's wrong: < 1564486991 132608 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, sysctl knobs < 1564487004 327808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"error while loading shared libraries: [...]: ELF load command address/offset not properly aligned" < 1564487024 751201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very legitimate complaint, ld.so. < 1564487091 608516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, that's what it says on the *statically linked* file. < 1564487366 661394 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564487391 319765 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564487568 746050 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, what do you know, it's not properly aligned. < 1564487569 27083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you have an LD_LIBRARY_PATH set? I get strace /bin/true 2>&1 | wc -l => 73 and LD_LIBRARY_PATH= strace /bin/true 2>&1 | wc -l => 25... < 1564487680 299820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! < 1564487690 544525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an LD_PRELOAD, courtesy of Ubuntu. < 1564487693 412466 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, and unset LD_PRELOAD too < 1564487706 876063 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Ubuntu is ridiculous in many ways. < 1564487716 761759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've probably mentioned how bad this LD_PRELOAD is before. < 1564487718 947200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, what does Ubuntu deam important enough to LD_PRELOAD? < 1564487725 565068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed it. < 1564487730 3384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*deem < 1564487745 922196 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel left out. I'm running Ubuntu and I don't have a LD_PRELOAD. < 1564487750 293044 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So GTK or GNOME decided to switch to drawing decorations in the client and requesting borderless windows from the WM at one point. < 1564487751 985923 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: some graphics toolkit thing < 1564487787 731631 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This only works particularly well if you're running GNOME. And there's no configuration to disable it. So if you don't run GNOME, they set you up with an LD_PRELOAD that forces GTK to use the old behavior. < 1564487813 24304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fancy. And awkward. < 1564487829 861042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is definitely the most reasonable way to do things, rather than, say, patching the source to check an environment variable for using the old behavior. < 1564487846 778968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or patching the source in any other way. That's not Ubuntu's business. < 1564487878 786138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I'm stuck with this LD_PRELOAD which constantly makes things fail in annoying ways. < 1564487909 629477 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example Nix programs run with a different library path so they can't find the GTK wrapper and they print an error message whenever I run them. < 1564488056 44670 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This must be an Ubuntu 18.04 thing, I'm still running 16.04. What happens if you override LD_PRELOAD? < 1564488084 574559 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I don't actually want to know < 1564488102 70104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could this be specific to Unity (and hence primarily Ubuntu)? < 1564488146 940179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember whether Ubuntu uses Unity or GNOME by default? < 1564488159 518704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unity, I thought. < 1564488162 228847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think this is a GTK-wide or GNOME-wide decision. < 1564488171 257467 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/CSD < 1564488212 685853 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If I override LD_PRELOAD then most things work slightly better except for GTK programs which work quite a bit worse. < 1564488231 599681 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I see. < 1564488255 870804 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you use wrappers for GTK programs that restore the LD_PRELOAD? < 1564488280 593475 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an option. < 1564488280 852344 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu uses Gnome3 by default in recent versions < 1564488290 151216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who can know what programs are GTK programs? < 1564488300 567881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ah so it's a nasty surprise still in the making. < 1564488335 14023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox, thunderbird, emacs, inkscape, gucharmap... are my main gtk apps? < 1564488397 419258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Emacs has several frontends but I'm pretty sure the gtk one is what I'm using. I expect it's still gtk2 and won't be affected for a while yet.) < 1564488407 214494 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ask the package manager what programs it would uninstall if you decided to uninstall gtk < 1564488436 88674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also GTK is a mess in many other ways. < 1564488456 363963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does theming in a particular way, but if you run something called a settings-daemon then it starts doing theming in a completely different way. < 1564488459 591040 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can't even decide what the G stands for < 1564488476 289382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And half of your programs work well with a high-DPI screen one way, and half the other way. < 1564488486 842549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, gimp of course. Forgetting about that one is embarrassing. :) < 1564488520 101788 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried running a settings-daemon not long ago and it was so terrible that I stopped. < 1564488532 351337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite it being the only way to make something work. < 1564488545 743956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The year of Linux on the desktop is now. < 1564488577 197078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But don't worry. As soon as I write this compiler I'll write some good GUI programs with it. < 1564488587 796356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you will. < 1564488619 930266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any day now! < 1564488641 666685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, there's no definite compiler planned. But I did write some UI programs using plain X11+OpenGL. < 1564488708 951315 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're surely way better than some kind of GTK nonsense that prints a bunch of dbind-warnings whenever you run it. < 1564488816 137766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's not kbuilding any sycocas. < 1564488899 568920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564488964 308798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "PEXT Parallel Extract Bits \ Copies bits from the source operand, based on a mask, and packs them into the low-order bits of the destination. Clears all bits in the destination to the left of the most-significant bit copied." < 1564488974 440858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :… < 1564489002 560430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they seriously add select from INTERCAL to the x86 instruction set? < 1564489019 951052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this version is 32-bit or 64-bit, rather than 16-bit or 32-bit < 1564489053 478895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's part of the BMI2 instruction set, which my processor apparently supports < 1564489071 915779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has an urge to feature-test this during C-INTERCAL's build process and use the asm instruction if supported
< 1564489087 722284 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. some call it sheep and goats. < 1564489104 575850 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can use the 32-bit one to emulate the 16-bit one though < 1564489130 583359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564489138 212927 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can probably use a gcc intrinsic and an MSVC instrinsic, with ifdefs, rather than an inline asm < 1564489146 974815 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1564489155 344887 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a compiler < 1564489160 416280 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't apply then < 1564489177 37356 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kvxckugusmtmacpz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564489193 35125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :inline asm is more fun < 1564489197 501443 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jpcxqydtxpoprjui JOIN :#esoteric < 1564489225 277855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft doesn't support inline assembly on x64. < 1564489307 838316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't really matter, C-INTERCAL has a really robust autoconf/automake setup and this is the sort of random thing autoconf is designed for < 1564489347 340260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does autoconf even work on Windows? < 1564489374 299091 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoconf is awful and I hate its ./configure scripts. < 1564489399 938222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of what it does isn't useful and hasn't been useful for decades, and it has real and significant costs. < 1564489401 4045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works about as well as sh and friends do < 1564489416 496152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I agree with you about autoconf solving entirely the wrong problem < 1564489428 53898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for C-INTERCAL in particular this felt like an upside rather than a downside < 1564489431 571825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they cared, autoconf people could at least make the configure scripts much faster, but I don't imagine they do, or maybe there just are no autoconf people. < 1564489437 988185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not the most serious of projects < 1564489455 213522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, for C-INTERCAL you can get an exception. < 1564489473 320122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I feel like autoconf isn't even the enjoyable kind of esocomplexity. < 1564489480 36631 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just nonsense complexity that makes things bad. < 1564489514 248356 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/intrinsics/x64-amd64-intrinsics-list?view=vs-2019 suggests that _pext_u64 is the intel-standard intrinsic, though I'll have to check that in the intel architecture manual < 1564489540 929630 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's right, then that will work the same on gcc and msvc, because gcc has headers implementing all that stuff based on gcc builtins < 1564489541 908832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I'm not sure if C-INTERCAL even compiles on Windows < 1564489548 36526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it compiling on /DOS/ once but that's different < 1564489548 856866 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://github.com/GregorR/autoconf-lean < 1564489572 122119 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a person who used to hang out here frequently once < 1564489610 463524 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1564489622 294960 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the intel architecture reference confirms that _pext_u32 and _pext_u64 are the functions corresponding to the PEXT instruction < 1564489641 798820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: He still turns up once every blue moon. > 1564489643 59991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64796&oldid=64795 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+10) 10 < 1564489654 385395 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably still worth to test for this in the autoconf, but it should work < 1564489701 798797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and of course umlbox is still actively used < 1564489711 716230 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gcc headers even define these so that they emulate the same operation even if you compile to older instruction sets or non-x86 cpu < 1564489720 985442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hackbot < 1564489800 612991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, is it correct to write this instruction as asm or as machine code? < 1564489816 376065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it has to be asm so that gcc can participate in register allocation < 1564489864 222609 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's certainly the preferable way, if you want to shun the compiler intrinsic. < 1564489885 753635 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to prefer it, but not mandatory. < 1564489939 376322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but this is INTERCAL, so I have to give at least passing thought to the idea that writing it as raw bytes would mean you didn't have to worry about what syntax the assembler used < 1564489960 530296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what header files are those even in? < 1564489976 262380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh checking for inline asm support in autoconf is probably easier than checking for a specific header file < 1564490010 410238 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: look up the header file name and the type of the function at https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/intrinsics/x64-amd64-intrinsics-list?view=vs-2019 < 1564490023 121553 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1564490045 263766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, neat, seems like both gcc and clang support it < 1564490062 69460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd clearly be the better way to do things, which gives a reason to avoid it < 1564490126 405001 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, this happens to most of the new x86 instructions; it's only old instructions BSF and BSR that fall through the cracks and have like three different sets of compiler intrinsics that you have to ifdef between, because neither msvc supports the gcc builtins nor backwards < 1564490164 206128 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I contributed the parts of http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libecb.html where it can use the MSVC wrappers for BSF and BSR, which is why I know < 1564490175 875812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is fused multiply-add broken the same way? it's the instruction that's different between Intel and AMD due to a lack of coordination < 1564490217 78619 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should note that even though msvc and gcc both support this, the semantics differ: on msvc, the intrinsic will just emit that instruction even if you're compiling for an older cpu, < 1564490266 118315 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for gcc it emits something that gives the same computation result as that instruction would perform, which for such new instructions won't actually call that instruction, unless you're explicitly compiling with a high -march < 1564490289 300805 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't follow how the fused multiply-add and all that neural network nonsense worked, sorry < 1564490395 790425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's a silly history < 1564490408 417297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMD and Intel came out with incompatible implementations of the same instruction > 1564490421 951779 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03RetroBug 5* 10New user account < 1564490427 289367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then both dropped their own version of it and implemetend the other's, so they're still incompatible but in the other direction > 1564490556 206729 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64797&oldid=64793 5* 03RetroBug 5* (+68) 10 < 1564490585 608164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One fun fact about ELF is that the ELF 64 standard says hash table entries are 64 bits, but most implementations use 32 bits. < 1564490602 762568 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that means the standard is wrong rather than the implementations. < 1564490858 364097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I suspect this inline asm version may actually be substantially faster than what was there before; performance improvements are great! < 1564490862 597494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I wonder how best to do mingles < 1564490889 363292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVX and friends have mingle instructions, but sadly they only mingle at the byte level < 1564490940 768839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's mingle? < 1564491071 592698 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's what the opposite instruction PDEP is for. if you have PEXT, you also have PDEP. < 1564491100 45809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: alternates bits in two operands to form a combined operand of twice the width < 1564491108 315330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right, two PDEPs and an OR would do it < 1564491199 176911 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but intercal code often uses mingle followed by an intercal bitwise followed by selecting the odd or even bits, which you can optimize to just a bitwise op < 1564491217 265247 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a bitwise op and a shift < 1564491243 507033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, C-INTERCAL does that optimisation already < 1564491287 797544 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned at some point that I think intercal code could use that redundant representation of integers that's base 2 but digits go from -2 to 1, because you can do arithmetic on that representation with the intercal ops faster < 1564491309 135468 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1564491314 388854 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the digits go from -1 to 1 < 1564491319 914636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :inclusive < 1564491333 216985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but it's way harder to store in memory < 1564491385 300101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like there are very limited uses for inline assembly nowadays. < 1564491393 775633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost everything is covered by either top-level assembly or intrinsics. < 1564491413 53257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Microsoft's decision is perhaps reasonable. < 1564491423 789089 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are uses for inline assembly? < 1564491493 197160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: out-optimising the compiler is one thing < 1564491505 609719 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :accessing some specific instructions < 1564491529 263480 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no it's not. you just store it as two integers, and they represent their difference < 1564491537 155419 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1564491539 342645 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confusing this up < 1564491539 565262 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :like rdrand or rdtsc or... < 1564491540 937763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this morning, I was curious about the following problem: suppose you have a function that generates a sequence of ints and can't be parallelised < 1564491554 162352 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to clear this up at some point, but now I don't know how they work < 1564491555 786821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the fastest way to store the generated ints into memory, assuming that there are too many to fit into the L2 cache? < 1564491584 202342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at what point do you need to out-optimize the compiler within a function? < 1564491620 337157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in most such cases you end up wanting to write the whole function in assembly. < 1564491620 521683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc's and clang's approaches were utterly different, but very comparaible in speed; I tried a few other things on my own, and eventually found one that was slightly but consistently faster < 1564491626 718924 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specific instructions sounds like what intrinsics are for. < 1564491648 656175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1564491651 497197 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Tue Jul 30 06:00:49 2019 < 1564491652 564834 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to go to sleep. < 1564491665 881355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, in my case, the loop was still written in C < 1564491796 274147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily enough, I decided to use a repeated rotate-left as a standin for the "function that generates a sequence of ints and can't be parallelised" (yes, I know you can parallelise that in practice) < 1564491826 559216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the compiler didn't recognise it, so I ended up writing the "add %0, %0\n\tadc $0, %0" manually < 1564492085 633383 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564492125 213343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually my experience is that even modern compilers are fairly bad at micro-optimisation, they're just good at knowing about more long-range optimisations that humans don't often think of > 1564492200 290114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64798&oldid=64789 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+204) 10 > 1564492320 769384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64799&oldid=64798 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-2) 10 > 1564492555 810332 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64800&oldid=64794 5* 03A 5* (+166) 102019 esolang > 1564492646 334469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64801&oldid=64800 5* 03A 5* (+18) 10No < 1564492847 581803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, C-INTERCAL repo updated with the use of inline asm for PEXT < 1564492893 633554 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick < 1564492910 245843 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it also do PDEP for mingle? < 1564492940 116249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet < 1564492947 309696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :our exiting mingle is fairly optimised as it is < 1564492979 318425 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok > 1564493006 99887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64802&oldid=64801 5* 03A 5* (+159) 10 < 1564493009 232451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, it's still a /lot/ of instructions < 1564493068 800272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder how you ask gcc to pick an arbitrary temporary for you < 1564493077 545542 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you know that Warren's "Hacker Delight" talks about the mingling (shuffling) and selecting, right? I don't recall what it says, but it definitely talks about them. > 1564493082 61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64803&oldid=64802 5* 03A 5* (-22) 10 < 1564493083 496801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe just say "register int temp;" and assign to it without reading it < 1564493116 691653 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think you even need "register" if it's arbitrary < 1564493129 920129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, duh, you just do it one instruction at a time < 1564493155 718620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well, it has to actually /be/ a register, although gcc's =r hint is sufficient to teach it about that < 1564493174 525104 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564493183 972197 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the asm clobber it? < 1564493189 651560 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than write into it < 1564493203 858846 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, fourth argument or something < 1564493205 46577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clobbers have to be fixed in the source code, though > 1564493219 143578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64804&oldid=64803 5* 03A 5* (+133) 10 < 1564493221 990343 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564493223 828610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the correct thing to do is to just make the temporary visible to gcc explicitly so that it can do SSA and friends on it < 1564493226 278072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and spills, and the like > 1564493316 936703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64805&oldid=64804 5* 03A 5* (-3) 10 > 1564493431 270542 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64806&oldid=64805 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10 < 1564493432 576693 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: about compilers being bad about micro-optimization, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSkpMdDe4g4 < 1564493509 28611 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found some of those impressive, sums compressed to formulas, multiplication turned differently into combinations of bit shifts etc. < 1564493527 225388 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably very basic stuff, I'm no expert) < 1564493528 254304 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564493634 516929 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564493678 363928 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64807&oldid=64806 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10 < 1564493747 910898 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you should mark it "volatile volatile" < 1564493798 747776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't volatile < 1564493840 999233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: AMD's optimisation guide has a list of constants for which it's worth using alternative code to multiply by them < 1564493856 493978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the smallest nonnegative integer for which IMUL is the fastest way to multiply by that integer is 22 < 1564493864 942496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for every smaller integer, there's some trick < 1564493878 125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(disappointingly, they didn't even bother to list the tricks for multiplying by 0 or 1) < 1564493907 604224 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: yes that sort of stuff, optimizing mul by constant to shifts, and also vice versa if you try to be clever :P < 1564493940 875367 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And differently based on what you're compiling for < 1564494065 541191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimising to shifts is boring, the /real/ trick on x86 is to use the AGU to do multiplications by unexpected numbers < 1564494107 42702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. for multiply by 9, AMD suggests "lea reg1, [reg1 + reg1 * 8]" < 1564494108 793591 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also shown on the vid iiuc < 1564494124 564604 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that's automatically done by optimizers < 1564494125 372303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, LEA is still a total hack :-) < 1564494135 694355 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1564494140 608963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect any compiler developer who cares about optimization to have read this document already > 1564494142 513274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64808&oldid=64807 5* 03A 5* (+228) 10 > 1564494236 780120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64809&oldid=64808 5* 03A 5* (-34) 10An infinite loop in a language that only provides finite loops! < 1564494292 650161 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1564494386 169460 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64810&oldid=64809 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* Infinite loop */ > 1564494612 955481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64811&oldid=64810 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10 < 1564494700 958955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, mingles are now also hardware-accelerated > 1564494848 502105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64812&oldid=64811 5* 03A 5* (-27) 10/* What Mains Numbers? */ > 1564494947 230373 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64813&oldid=64812 5* 03Ais523 5* (+124) 10Mixed undo revisions 64809, 64810 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): not an infinite loop, it just allocates so much memory that it'll probably thrash nearly-indefinitely < 1564494965 269631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A should stop jumping to assumptions :-( < 1564494999 330316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I had a great idea about how pointers should work < 1564495024 275136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of pointing to the start or end of an object, they should point to the middle (this means adding an extra bit so you can point into the middle of a byte) < 1564495053 855838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this assumes that all your allocations are power-of-2-sized and aligned, otherwise there's no real gaini < 1564495068 196805 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564495070 556768 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1564495086 296013 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly in the middle of objects? hmm < 1564495097 98292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have that, then the middle-pointer uniquely specifies both the memory you're accessing and the width of it, which should make things like hardware bounds checking efficiently possible < 1564495135 104012 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it store the width? < 1564495137 2418 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1564495147 722106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86_64 you could make up for the extra bit at the end by dropping bit 62, it's never going to get used anyway < 1564495153 476860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: count the number of trailing zeroes < 1564495179 437396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects are power-of-2-sized and aligned, thus the middle is aligned with respect to half the object's size but misaligned with respect to the object's full size < 1564495211 891555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, you can use the alignment to determine the size, without ever having a pointer that's randomly more aligned than it should be < 1564495243 417387 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't give exact bounds checks though, only bounds checks rounded up to a power of two or something close < 1564495257 710146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you only allocate objects in power-of-2 sizes < 1564495265 264518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are good reasons for a malloc to do that anyway) < 1564495273 329912 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1564495274 968778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main issue is structs, I think < 1564495278 456049 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary buddy block allocator < 1564495304 324145 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also do a fibonacci version of this alignment scheme, just to screw with people < 1564495317 696111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can add 3*2^k into the mix for fun. < 1564495326 527242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithm of "just allocate in the first available aligned address of the appropriate size" is great, when you use power-of-two sizes only it actually works < 1564495332 11005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That seems easier than fibonacci.) < 1564495344 209674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also Fibonacci seems awful for alignment.) < 1564495345 417878 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocate only objects of fibonacci size, at addresses whose address in zeckendorf end with as many zeroes < 1564495354 884623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the fibonacci version is definitely in the screwing-with-people realm < 1564495367 57310 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: only on current cpus, which use 64-byte 64-aligned cache lines < 1564495390 660945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a suspicion that 64-byte will be the correct size for a cache line for the foreseeable future < 1564495397 490437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :When will we move to 128? Also, RAM rows enter the picture as well at some point. < 1564495439 123990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like my tests indicate that 16 bytes is the correct size for a bulk write to memory (if you're getting the data as individual ints rather than a bulk read) < 1564495473 933793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: cache lines are weird, ideally you'd want them to be /smaller/, the only reason to have them that large is to reduce the amount of bookkeeping you have to do < 1564495502 655221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a larger cache line would mean that you had so many of the things that you could afford to often waste data space in the L1 cache, but were very tight on bookkeeping cache < 1564495510 48992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems implausible with modern processor designs < 1564495539 646447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess maybe L2 would benefit from longer cache lines? < 1564495540 241741 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in a hypothetical cpu that has 55 and 89 byte cache lines, aligned to fibonacci round addresses < 1564495546 601009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are obvious reasons to want them the same size as L1 < 1564495554 818904 :oklopol!~androirc@91-159-237-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564495556 632710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm not going there. < 1564495656 569390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the performance of a malloc that, for large objects, just maps a ridiculous amount of memory as MAP_NORESERVE and relies on the kernel to do the actual allocations when page faults happen < 1564495689 121885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the page faults were going to happen anyway, so there seems to be no particular reason to do anything at other times) < 1564495724 559525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the huge advantage of this is that realloc becomes a nop, which helps make your write loops tighter < 1564495746 9097 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but that doesn't work too well when you allocate a lot of small objects, which is a common case < 1564495754 965268 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you don't have infinite address space < 1564495758 37261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a different algorithm for small objects, yes < 1564495765 362225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they don't need a separate page < 1564495772 857603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do pretty much have infinite address space < 1564495773 503729 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1564495786 316838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bits is a /lot/ < 1564495795 187083 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have 64 bits, < 1564495797 578418 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even without that < 1564495798 5531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can allocate 4 GiB for every object and still have 32 bits left < 1564495808 33536 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel has to do bookkeeping for what you allocate < 1564495822 374699 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't have 64 bits of virtual address space < 1564495828 995246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sadly < 1564495835 989022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's, what, 48 bits on modern processors? < 1564495842 9804 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just what the architecture allows us to expand the address space without breaking binary compatibility < 1564495854 712767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, 47 < 1564495870 738590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because half the virtual address space is reserved for kernel-internal use < 1564495882 960705 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that too only if people don't start using high bits for tag bits when they have perfectly usable low bits instead, like they did in the 32-bit era and ended up with a prolog interpreter that couldn't use more than 256 megabytes of memory) < 1564495906 17697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, that's still 32767 self-reallocing objects, there are plenty of programs that are unlikely to use anywhere near that many < 1564495930 954483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: they can't, x86_64 actually intentionally crashes if it sees a high bit used as a tag bit < 1564495933 137011 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how many bits we have now, they keep changing that every decade or so, I'm not following < 1564495942 190904 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: only if you don't mask it < 1564495947 1762 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as with the 32-bit things < 1564495959 396041 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you explicitly mask it off before using it as an address, it will work < 1564495978 390279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, because the processor can't see how the value was derived < 1564495991 630180 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but low bits is still easier, because if you know all the low bits, you can usually remove them by just using the right offset < 1564496015 477315 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people do get this right though, so it's not much of a worry < 1564496034 809812 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one prolog interpreter was more just an unfortunate exception < 1564496043 639018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, one thing that's really annoying is that malloc() is not async-signal-safe < 1564496060 201883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first-power-of-2 technique can be implemented lock-free, I think < 1564496077 981311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it probably should be, so that people can allocate memory in their signal handlers without deadlocks < 1564496114 558338 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you're right, 48 bits of virtual address space now, I think < 1564496232 68700 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: really? do you mean even without a small performance penalty for the common case of sane programs that don't try to alloacte from a signal handler? < 1564496270 49227 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really want to allocate from a signal handler, then use a custom more expensive allocator for those parts of the code that may run from a signal handler < 1564496286 639863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well you need to use a lock or atomic /somewhere/ < 1564496309 452223 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's usually better to just not do anything fancy from a signal handler < 1564496309 986294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's debate about which is faster in the common, non-contended case, but I'm guessing they're much the same < 1564496338 389154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when there's no contention the algorithm runs quickly (unless there's /so much/ contention that the processor starts predicting the branch as taken, which is likely to be the least of your issues) < 1564496441 550121 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564496495 917458 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know any good FPGAs? I need one for my esoteric computer. < 1564496570 697077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience, FPGA toolchains are really terrible < 1564496578 431145 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnoodle < 1564496579 483542 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnoodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496580 529913 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnooodle < 1564496581 631202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnoooodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496584 866829 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnoooodle < 1564496585 898311 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnoooodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496587 459331 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnooooodle < 1564496588 588771 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnooooodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496589 586492 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnoooooodle < 1564496590 765148 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnoooooodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496595 846672 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnooooooodle < 1564496595 871618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the FPGAs themselves, for the majority of tasks, either most FPGAs will be good enough or affordable FPGAs won't b e good enough < 1564496596 854363 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnooooooodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496597 806333 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564496603 363715 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rnodle < 1564496604 442008 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rnodle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564496607 859582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the main difficulty is finding a way to wire them up to your computer < 1564496658 701452 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? don't those FPGAs have IO devices built in? < 1564496724 549638 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564496750 523428 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to do it in a field. < 1564496758 16931 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're field programmable, you see. < 1564496784 780127 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you happen to be in a forest, tough luck. < 1564496790 536005 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of using an Altera cyclone ii mini to use, but I heard that the Spartan series is good too < 1564496927 225602 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the main problems is, how would I get it to display items on the screen? VHDL really doesn't make this any easier, as it's not be most consice of languages < 1564496992 715802 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564497112 390445 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/stacksmith/fpgasm < 1564497146 281857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so in a quick test, Linux was quite happy to allocate me 16 GiB of address space in one large mapping < 1564497178 289828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I don't have that much memory in physical or swap space or both combined < 1564497192 144052 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, many computers these days have 16 GB physical memory < 1564497208 980224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I could read/write random addresses in it without any obvious performance issues < 1564497276 803077 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but won't the kernel still need to keep about 1/1000 the size of that virtual memory for administration? < 1564497282 668149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leads me to suspect that the most efficient way to deal with memory, if you don't care about getting segfaults for wild accesses, is to only ask the kernel for memory once in the lifetime of the program, and use writes to memory to allocate it and madvise to free it < 1564497298 578722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: page caches have multiple levels nowadays < 1564497302 84522 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you use large pages that is, but large pages would defeat the problem < 1564497315 438004 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but ... I don't know how that works in the kernel < 1564497317 302024 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1564497330 471280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't see how the same problem doesn't happen even if you allocate a bit at a time and use brk and mmap and whatever to request more as you need it < 1564497341 352744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, "a small amount at a time", not a literal bit :-) < 1564497379 518638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I was trying to argue against the method you mentioned above, of allocating 4G for every large object < 1564497385 451559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does MADV_REMOVE work with anonymous mappings, I wonder? < 1564497396 39075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ah, I see < 1564497516 139784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if any memset implementations use madvise to zero memory? I'm guessing not, it'd be insane < 1564497525 253329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but memset is the sort of function where insane optimisations can make sense < 1564497537 676571 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1564497550 690348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the idea would be to swap out the page backing the memory you're trying to zero for a freshly zeroed page) < 1564497570 120685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether Linux has a background memory zeroing daemon (or equivalent); I know Windows does < 1564497577 897438 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it would help much, in the long run, as long as you're using memset for memory you want to use later, because the kernel has to zero the page eventually < 1564497606 987760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows has a supply of pre-zeroed physical memory pages that it hands out to applications, and zeroes pages in the background after they're unmapped < 1564497637 997309 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I think linux has something like that too < 1564497720 289173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kswapd, apparently < 1564497738 807503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't run constantly, only when the number of zeroed pages is low < 1564497747 113531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it gets very low the kernel foregrounds the page-zeroing task so that it never runs out < 1564497877 734096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564497890 530468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564498167 291106 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I learn LLVM assembly or should I not bother < 1564498249 137792 :oklopol!~androirc@85-76-162-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564498276 193622 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564498296 575728 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's up to you < 1564498380 915718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say, only if you want to use it for something < 1564498394 163799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if you're interested in SSA-based languages in general < 1564498413 506361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really a multiple-level language, though, it can express a lot of different levels of abstraction and is designed to compile into lower abstraction levels of itself < 1564498421 77838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a common property for compiler intermediate representations) < 1564498430 212415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really, "learning LLVM" is about learning a specific subset of it < 1564498508 39837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you need for whatever it is you're doing < 1564498549 652946 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two compiler projects that became dead ends because I tried to generate C and it just got frustrating and boring and I abandoned them. < 1564498600 372623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think generating C is generally easier than generating LLVM, also less platform-specific > 1564498609 968863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64814&oldid=64799 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1117) 10 < 1564498615 512349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LLVM is slightly platform-specific, enough so that you can't really generate "portable LLVM") < 1564498634 740778 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then "no" I guess < 1564498635 872153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps WebAssembly would be an interesting target to use instead, that's fairly regular as ASMs go < 1564498660 395988 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just leave them as dead ends < 1564498673 501980 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1564498675 4600 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1564498937 93885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1564499766 818499 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.182.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564500030 123688 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564500083 585241 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was in London for the weekend. It seems that the stores sell milk in both one liter size and a size slightly larger than one liter, the latter is apparently somewhat round in some non-metric measurement unit. < 1564500141 786521 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they sell half liter and two liter bottles. I still find that strange. Half liter milk bags used to exist here, but only a very long time ago, and I've only ever seen ones larger than one liter abroad. < 1564500495 582439 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes buy the half-litre bottles if I'm thirsty when I'm out and about < 1564501106 254316 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1564501335 407490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :drinking milk as a beverage is weird to me < 1564501408 485504 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's weird to a lot of people < 1564501424 575855 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: is that because you live in a place where you can't easily buy fresh milk, only < 1564501460 357481 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UHT milk? because fresh milk tastes much better, but I know it's not available everywhere < 1564501481 798438 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But like, it's cheaper and healthier (here at least) than soft drinks < 1564501577 317472 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...now I'm thirsty < 1564501690 672510 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564501870 920064 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564502906 387071 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do 1l and 1.5l here < 1564502982 248329 :oklopol!~androirc@85-76-162-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have 1.75 < 1564503158 103220 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :UHT milk isn't common in the USA < 1564503173 48903 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we mostly have regular pasteurized milk < 1564503177 906595 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which needs to be refridgerated < 1564503202 447433 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought some lemonade the other day, didn't notice it was unpasteurized... within less than a week the bottle had puffed up to almost a round cylinder < 1564503219 217258 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started unscrewing it in the sink and the cap came off with a bang < 1564503462 280904 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the "slightly larger than one liter" was 2 imperial pints? < 1564503480 223270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great how the UK's non-metric unit isn't even the same as the US's non-metric unit of the same name < 1564503498 146042 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 imperial pints is a bit more than 1L but 2 US pints is a bit less than 1L < 1564503512 619467 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qtaiqicavfltyvgb JOIN :#esoteric < 1564503611 700756 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone once taught me a rhyme, "A litre of water is a pint and three quarter" < 1564503644 867310 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise the US pint was different < 1564503668 919438 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rhyme doesn't even rhyme very well < 1564503682 829306 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a litre of wuarter < 1564503686 501677 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It rhymes almost perfectly to me < 1564503703 682616 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must talk weirdly < 1564503712 684324 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, like, have a rhotic accent) < 1564503955 436150 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564503966 422560 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like phonology < 1564504153 296502 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564506396 905922 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in the US and I have no idea what a pint is < 1564506781 540146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564508013 919552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, probably < 1564508028 689735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't much pay attention right there, and I don't have the bottles or photos of them anymore < 1564508036 45879 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1564508042 597587 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb_jonas < 1564508240 376332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still no IOCCC source codes < 1564508275 113677 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1564510572 750717 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the Giant says that the end of the sixth OotS book is in sight. and there will only be seven books. we must be two thirds ratio into the story by now. < 1564510598 578785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume the last book will be the thickest, because that's how these series usually go, but still. > 1564510738 878681 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64815&oldid=64814 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-178) 10 < 1564510877 51507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you imagine living in a time when everyone knows OotS as an epic that is already complete, and we tell children about how we had to wait ten days (uphill both ways) for the next strip to appear, over and over again for each strip? < 1564511100 237398 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess we can already tell them about when Harry Potter wasn't yet complete < 1564511271 549492 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564511327 279755 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu came out with the 19.04 version < 1564511338 391362 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost installed 18.04 < 1564511350 323287 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PART :#esoteric < 1564511409 677001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and #esoteric is logged way back so we can even prove it < 1564513129 935701 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564513768 153431 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric : although I guess we can already tell them about when Harry Potter wasn't yet complete => was it too published strip by strip? < 1564514113 689675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: no, but we had to wait for the last three books < 1564515105 32334 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be quite interesting if Harry was originally a comic series < 1564515255 548966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. that would make the books more expensive, I think, so it would get to fewer people < 1564515310 942044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way they are, with books, I can have the complete story in seven books. in comics, I could only have slices. < 1564515352 414850 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: agree < 1564515361 878218 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately < 1564515385 127201 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, there are some prose/comic hybrids out there, maybe it’s a good format < 1564515399 175706 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :illustrated books, yes < 1564515403 992500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can be good < 1564515422 473888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Matilda by Roald Dahl on my bookshelf, but that one is short < 1564515471 144283 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn’t know that’s illustrated originally (I only have seen a film) < 1564515490 947738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have some of the Kästner books < 1564515512 686052 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is it translated, I mean Matilda? < 1564515532 198550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a translation, and I've read it, but in this case, I have the original English version of Matilda on my shelf < 1564515541 69968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Kästner books I only have in translation < 1564515553 62590 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1564515572 806854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Matilda is one of the books I've met when I was very young, but only got the original more recently < 1564515667 430069 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW I don’t like very much how it ends, “and she didn’t need to use her telekinesis almost ever”, is it a tad boring < 1564515687 233954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, it ends by Matilda _losing_ her telekinesis < 1564515692 228641 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564515696 42044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some speculation too on why < 1564515700 978540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not even the important point < 1564515703 389609 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the movie guys lied to me < 1564515733 740425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more important is that it ends by Matilda living happily ever after with her teacher Ms Honey in the house that she inherited, instead of with the parents who don't care much about her < 1564515766 84552 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand what is it she didn’t have is a loving family, yeah, I agree it’s greater, but still < 1564515882 756637 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s like there can only be one thing more important that all the others, and it doesn’t ring too true, even when I was a kid and saw the movie version the first time < 1564515907 363727 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the story is good < 1564515951 163630 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can also say if Matilda is okay with no superpowers, then so am I :D < 1564515978 963903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't she be okay? she didn't ask for them anyway, and she was never dependent on them < 1564516108 410721 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1564516241 285826 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 this new smb3 tas is even super cooler than last time thx < 1564516241 522991 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1564516644 457123 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qtaiqicavfltyvgb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564516993 752659 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564517016 665672 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564517156 389232 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1564523506 911234 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oxcbrfeijqeimtfw JOIN :#esoteric < 1564523858 405704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? union < 1564523859 441839 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :An union is the opposite of an ion. < 1564523862 796529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`q < 1564523863 410788 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1288) (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO) < 1564527107 336455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-222.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564528178 333035 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564529064 315135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64816&oldid=64815 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+439) 10 > 1564529452 513435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64817&oldid=64816 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+479) 10 < 1564529461 219730 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564529636 356386 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64818&oldid=64817 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+32) 10 > 1564530835 389158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64819&oldid=64818 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+118) 10 < 1564531246 928705 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 QUIT :Changing host < 1564531246 928866 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr JOIN :#esoteric > 1564531303 126172 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64820&oldid=64819 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+145) 10 < 1564531834 193493 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.134 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1564532158 626480 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64821&oldid=64820 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+143) 10 < 1564532844 809225 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oxcbrfeijqeimtfw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564533949 909927 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqrzagbbhoiugeug JOIN :#esoteric < 1564535487 927925 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564538635 234005 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awrighty, I think I've decided how I want to implement Forth for my weird PC project. < 1564538643 736972 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, I've decided *some* of it, anyway. < 1564538654 953228 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's what my keyboard handler looks like currently... < 1564538660 559934 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :29 DB B8 10 01 8E D8 B8 00 B8 8E C0 29 C0 E4 60 D7 B4 07 AB B0 20 E6 20 CF < 1564538699 823629 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say: < 1564538704 36200 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub bx, bx; mov ax, 0110; mov ds, ax; mov ax, b800; mov es, ax; sub ax, ax; in al, 60; xlat; mov ah, 07; stosw; mov al, 20; out 20, al; iret < 1564538719 457497 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The new keyboard handler is going to be: < 1564538720 466091 :adu_!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564538726 459773 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :b800 set-es 60 input-byte 500 xlat 700 or 404 load store-es 404 load inc inc 404 store 20 20 output-byte iret < 1564538730 18812 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is obviously so much more readable. < 1564538743 221192 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564538743 511818 :adu_!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net NICK :adu < 1564538767 218737 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :And which compiles to 107 bytes instead of the 25 bytes of the original. :D < 1564538798 742745 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I just merely have to write the compiler. < 1564539071 907690 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know it's 107 bytes if you haven't written the compiler yet? < 1564539078 25364 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is obviously so easy. < 1564539110 232461 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the compiler is just going to take each of those words, look up the corresponding piece of assembly code, and write that assembly code into the compiled output. < 1564539139 680990 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do the same by hand. < 1564539399 907226 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1564539439 450989 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like you need an optimizing compiler :) < 1564539983 431229 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know what they say. < 1564539986 971514 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] optimization is [...] evil. < 1564540194 179244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: wah, you have to restore those segment registers! < 1564540215 374140 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the other ones as well) < 1564540277 926111 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, that's probably a good idea. < 1564540412 637315 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm assuming that no code will be running when an interrupt happens. < 1564540423 869493 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which... is an assumption that may prove to be false. :D < 1564540495 829510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the interrupt handler will be fine... only other programs will suffer ;) < 1564540685 480928 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have another interrupt handler that ends with "eb fe", which is a jump to itself. < 1564541135 436384 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a little assembler the other day, it's great. < 1564541168 947878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably won't bother with multipass assembly to get the smallest instruction sizes. < 1564544068 496773 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:c13b:e67f:162:2f48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1564546643 653593 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqrzagbbhoiugeug QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564546737 752508 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1564548434 125377 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64822&oldid=64813 5* 03A 5* (+1498) 10/* The implementation */ > 1564548540 454927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64823&oldid=64822 5* 03A 5* (-1363) 10/* The implementation */ < 1564548678 785183 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :w22 < 1564548688 775664 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1564548689 615155 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :526) Second Life is like... real life, modelled by people who've READ about real life, you know, in books. < 1564548696 22166 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1564548696 617245 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1199) oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original < 1564548755 4632 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1564548813 197620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there uses for the REX byte without any of W,R,X,B? < 1564548815 526247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just 0x40 > 1564549672 654761 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64824&oldid=64823 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* The implementation */ < 1564549696 909404 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.182.9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1564549697 659735 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64825&oldid=64824 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* What Mains Numbers? */ > 1564549869 476302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64826&oldid=64825 5* 03A 5* (+33) 10/* The implementation */ < 1564550371 878695 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1564550919 869604 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64827&oldid=64826 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* The implementation */ > 1564551104 316145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64828&oldid=64827 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* The implementation */ < 1564551985 209323 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564552168 383122 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1564556248 407269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` doag quotes | grep 'standard definition' < 1564556250 575419 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9233:2016-10-11 addquote (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO) < 1564556252 389133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added that? > 1564556343 870403 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64829&oldid=64735 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+27) 10/* References */ > 1564556476 700815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64830&oldid=62025 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+22) 10 > 1564556630 153557 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64831 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+33) 10Created page with "'''Pxemf'''(Pronunciation: ) is" > 1564556941 945068 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64832 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+290) 10Created page with "= Python Interpreter = Is it alright if I make a direct port of the Java interpreter in Python? Because I am unable to access anything that could compile Java, but I do have..." > 1564557024 26802 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64833&oldid=64832 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+29) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564557131 576072 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64834&oldid=63904 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+90) 10 > 1564558097 639849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64835&oldid=64828 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10/* Example programs */ > 1564558105 62348 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64836&oldid=64835 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* = Hello, world! program */ < 1564558201 218672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564558309 771802 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64837&oldid=64836 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10/* The implementation */ < 1564558600 254705 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. It occurs to me that "ghci" is an acronym for "Glasgow Haskell Compiler Interpreter". I approve of this. The world needs more compiler interpreters. > 1564558604 443862 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64838&oldid=64837 5* 03A 5* (+1492) 10No it is, you probably don't know JavaScript. > 1564559112 398098 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64839&oldid=64838 5* 03A 5* (+166) 10/* Infinite loop */ < 1564559724 501483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yaci < 1564559823 617727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I finally got the etymology of "bison". < 1564559853 277948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wish I didn't. Puns are only good when they're your own ;-) > 1564560032 353450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64840&oldid=64839 5* 03A 5* (+623) 10/* Infinite loop */ < 1564560147 743158 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1564560232 931503 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64841&oldid=64840 5* 03A 5* (+303) 10/* Infinite loop */ < 1564560310 67995 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564560830 805766 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64842&oldid=64841 5* 03A 5* (+224) 10/* Infinite loop */ I should have explained it further when Ais523 is a JavaScript beginner. (But indeed it is obvious enough.) > 1564560969 564657 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64843&oldid=64842 5* 03A 5* (+35) 10/* Infinite loop */ Minor improvement > 1564561006 260180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64844&oldid=64843 5* 03A 5* (+29) 10/* Infinite loop */ > 1564561332 251781 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64845&oldid=64833 5* 03A 5* (+84) 10Stub reply < 1564561552 521865 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564561710 830243 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1564562633 141974 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564562922 599809 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Are there uses for the REX byte without any of W,R,X,B?" => rarely. you can use them to encode the DIL, SIL, BPL, SPL byte register operands < 1564563158 90302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, right. < 1564563190 282439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those weren't in x86? < 1564563275 636842 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They aren't in x86_16 or x86_32, but then you rarely need them, you can do almost everything with either the other byte registers or full word operations < 1564563392 175179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I miss the one byte inc/dec register operations :P < 1564563399 219968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. Without the rex prefix it encodes the upper half of the [abcd]x registers. < 1564563419 973003 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bot really. But that's where they stole those prefixes from.) < 1564563427 23934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Not < 1564563427 765796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean [adcb]x < 1564563628 715140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 010x is inc and 011x is dec. < 1564563713 828128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in long mode inc %eax is encoded with... ff? < 1564563745 886215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably < 1564563785 935619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know what you mean by 010x and 011x though) < 1564563790 10347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, which was already inc r/m < 1564563806 130565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean octal 0100|reg and 0110|reg < 1564563819 753751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :octal. < 1564563828 571542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, makes sense < 1564563840 593149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :octal is the way to go, it's great < 1564563842 62073 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0100 -- :-P < 1564563845 822647 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 100 < 1564563880 745336 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mod r/m byte is great. 03xy encodes register x and register y, and so on. < 1564563938 505171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :0o3xy, if you prefer < 1564563951 798546 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no < 1564564006 825179 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hmm wait < 1564564575 950395 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it does < 1564565077 245142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564565106 301843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I wrote my slightly crazy malloc: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/animalloc.tgz < 1564565139 765033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it compiles to a .so file that you can use with LD_PRELOAD < 1564565193 254999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying it on various programs, it seems to work (in particular, a full build+test of C-INTERCAL works, with malloc replacements in all the programs invoked as part of that, including make, gcc, and friends) < 1564565330 508961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it do? < 1564565522 448006 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nice, let me look < 1564565631 744896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's based around asking the kernel for a huge amount of address space and then using pagefaults for the actual allocation < 1564565677 483064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also uses a lock-free algorithm (specifically, a lock-free stack) to make it async-signal safe, because I hate the fact that standard malloc isn't < 1564565718 402663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also some code in there to fill freed memory with 0xAA, I should probably remove that because this really isn't a malloc about safety < 1564565759 354660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, updated with that line taken out < 1564565795 874650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that if you try to allocate too much memory and then use it, you'll likely get a segfault, but that's no different from standard mallocs on Linux < 1564565813 162568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, this assumes Linux and a 64-bit processor; it doesn't assume x86_64 specifically, although that's what most people are likely to use) < 1564565870 54356 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you should probably implement the various aligned allocation functions too, even if by just stubs that abort < 1564565903 190687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised that while looking at competitors < 1564565913 362533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, it's important to have the entire set of alloc functions implemented at once < 1564565919 315406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you don't mismatch malloc and free impls < 1564565955 604571 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Replacing-malloc.html#Replacing-malloc > 1564565989 431652 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64846&oldid=64831 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+942) 10 < 1564566066 214282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, "malloc_usable_size" is what that function's called < 1564566067 557272 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :filling with 0xAA can make sense, but make sure to do that only for small allocations, or at least small parts of large allocations, because people can use malloc to allocate huge blocks that will be paged in on demand too < 1564566116 610399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was limited to blocks of 32768 bytes at most < 1564566120 253699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I removed it anyway < 1564566291 653349 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aligned allocation is another of those messes that we got because everyone added their own incompatible apis, and now we have to support all of them < 1564566313 273493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :animalloc uses 512-byte alignment for its huge allocation (I didn't want the alignment to be too coarse as that screws up ASLR) < 1564566364 640664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess the correct way to implement an aligned alloc is to increase the size to the alignment if it's smaller and we have less than 512 bytes of alignment requirement > 1564566373 345725 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ruby14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64847&oldid=38207 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+19) 10 < 1564566373 721563 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf mentioned a few days ago how many different ways you can tell libc to run a function early in the program, before main. that's one of those messes too, because C doesn't have a standard mechanism. < 1564566384 394312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to use the "over-allocate and filter" method if the request is for an alignment larger than 512 bytes < 1564566414 399157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for aligned allocation, I'm tempted to add a new api too if I ever make my own malloc: < 1564566546 948914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, a quick check with a malloc benchmarker is showing that my malloc is both faster than glibc malloc, and also less memory-hungry < 1564566565 779708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although of course, real-world programs may act in a very different way from a malloc benchmarker < 1564566579 114216 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a four-argument function void *alloc4(size_t size, size_t alignment, size_t before, size_t after) which allocates a block of legth at least size bytes, aligned to a boundary of alignment bytes (must be a power of two), with at least before bytes readable before the block and at least after bytes readable after the nominal end of the block < 1564566601 175524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is most likely because animalloc is completely immune to fragmentation < 1564566631 774491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I assume that the readable bytes are allowed to be part of some other allocation, and not necessarily writable < 1564566639 781258 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564566640 475694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they're basically just a "legal overrun"? < 1564566670 578311 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they can contain administration data used by the malloc implementation itself < 1564566690 723899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be pretty trivial with animalloc, tbh, as long as your allocation is at least 9 bytes long you have several gigabytes of readable overrun space :-) < 1564566703 609982 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even backwards? > 1564566749 359744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64848&oldid=64844 5* 03A 5* (+139) 10 < 1564566750 355031 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact maybe I should make the api even more general, adding an alignment offset too, though that doesn't come up often < 1564566762 634245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The function aligned_alloc() is the same as memalign(), except for the added restriction that size should be a multiple of alignment. < 1564566769 384625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't report what error it's supposed to return if it isn't :-( < 1564566777 944716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: even backwards, that's what the 9-byte minimum is for < 1564566801 932144 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1564566806 416525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's 4GiB of address space reserved for objects that are 8 bytes and smaller < 1564566809 452062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those come first < 1564566840 758809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(allocating objects that small is normally a mistake, but there are likely uses for it) > 1564567051 789148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64849&oldid=64848 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* = Computational class */ < 1564567103 968025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The GHC RTS maps 1TB of address space at startup nowadays, I hear. < 1564567131 173975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I wonder whether disabling overcommit would be better. < 1564567177 832624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think overcommit should be under the control of the program allocating the memory < 1564567201 589025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the understanding that if a program overcommits willingly, it's signing up to be OOM-killed < 1564567277 222953 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been writing a bunch of C code that hardly ever calls malloc. < 1564567279 486294 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's great. < 1564567334 621899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1564567352 973552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564567394 482227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think passing custom allocators to libraries is a plausible thing to do? < 1564567428 233686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that I'm a bit skeptical of is that different allocators can have different APIs and usage patterns, it's not malloc and free. < 1564567534 413492 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure! in some cases, like for interpreters or haskell runtimes that allocate a lot of small objects with known type (that are either not arrays, or arrays where the actual size has to be known because there are destructors), it's worth to use a library with a sized free, which means the allocation function needn't store the size of the blo < 1564567534 970131 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ck. > 1564567542 211403 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64850&oldid=64829 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+14) 10 < 1564567594 983616 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, you pass the size and alignment of the object to both the allocate and the free function, and it's an UB if you pass a different size or alignment when freeing > 1564567622 753651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64851&oldid=64846 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+794) 10 < 1564567794 516066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that would certainly be a better API option. < 1564567836 350375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also sometimes you want to allocate in an arena and free all at once, in which case you don't want to call free on each individual allocation even if it's a no-op. < 1564567853 653941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: animalloc stores the size of the block in the returned pointer :-) > 1564567872 776001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64852&oldid=64850 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+209) 10 < 1564567878 533778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plenty of address space, after all, to use some of the bits of the returned pointer to record the size < 1564568315 69333 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty good. < 1564568389 166531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works well because there are only ten allocation sizes used anyway, in terms of distance between returned pointers (the entire space is mapped) < 1564568406 878424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, nine, not ten < 1564568413 579380 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it might also help to add an explicit -std to the compiler command in the makefile < 1564568473 41681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I added -std=gnu11 < 1564568481 477587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is hopelessly Linux-specific anyway < 1564568499 812558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't uploaded yet, am still implementing the remaining functions < 1564568527 54982 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see my fancy gnu11 printf? < 1564568532 50584 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you could also consider to mprotect all the space you don't use to unreadable, both the large allocations that you make the kernel throw away with MADV_FREE, and the tail part of the spaces for small allocations until first used. that way it's more likely that some pointer mistakes are caught by segfaults. < 1564568539 179843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt < 1564568593 815894 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember whether this is C11. I think I concluded it wasn't. < 1564568624 5327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, this thing compiles a few bytes smaller with -O3 than with -Os under clang (gcc's -Os is larger) < 1564568746 249672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the smallest program that's true of is. < 1564568965 964017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -Os /code/ is way shorter, so I wonder why the file is larger < 1564569001 309625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this relationship is true both stripped and unstripped) < 1564569162 164525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's more interesting. < 1564569221 23725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after looking at readelf for a while I figured it out: there's some sort of alignment requirement which causes the -Os output to lose its advantage due to having to pad the code up to the same length as the -O3 output within the .so file < 1564569276 337260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the -O3 output inlines a call to an exported function, whereas the -Os output calls the function directly, and that function call creates one additional relocation < 1564569284 831123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the relocation is in a part of the ELF file that /does/ affect the file length < 1564569334 790195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I uploaded the new version < 1564569439 846738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dynamic linking is so complicated. < 1564569446 740262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are hardly any benefits to it. < 1564569481 38012 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's pretty cool. < 1564569497 84932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a6f: 48 c7 c0 ff ff ff ff mov $0xffffffffffffffff,%rax ← oh come on, even I can beat that < 1564569523 488408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in "outoptimize the compiler" wars, -Os is more fun as a target because it's much more objective as to what code is better than what other code < 1564569537 560382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0: 31 c0 xor %eax,%eax < 1564569538 955645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2: 48 ff c8 dec %rax < 1564569541 987087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my competing program < 1564569562 916689 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once worked on some code where the structs were 8 bytes so I passed them directly to functions, and I was told that I should be allocating them on the heap and passing pointers to them instead < 1564569576 764819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see that heap-compacting malloc? < 1564569591 503909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly they probably hve different effects on flags but the context doesn't care about the flags < 1564569603 151366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/plasma-umass/mesh < 1564569635 808223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: many programmers don't have a good intuition about when it's best to pass things by value < 1564569647 754427 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: -Os doesn't always try to produce the smallest code if it's slower < 1564569657 372207 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're Just Not Supposed to Do That with a Struct < 1564569689 288016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: is there an "as small as possible" optimization option? analogously to the "as fast as possible" -Ofast? < 1564569700 884336 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: gcc -Os has a four-byte solution, it seems. < 1564569704 640134 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but I don't care. I dno't use the compiler for golf. < 1564569734 576191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sign-extended or with 0xff < 1564569739 855805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-Ofast isn't standards-compliant) < 1564569750 755740 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can try to add __attribute__((cold)) or whatever that is to functions if you want < 1564569869 664106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilers typically don't do much with hot/cold < 1564569891 507987 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and if you're willing to pay for two instructions where the second one depends on the first one, you can just use an OR instruction with a 8-bit immediate, which would be three bytes long and have a false dependency that the cpu doesn't know is false < 1564569905 927578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the normal optimisations for hot don't help much unless you have an entire loop entirely in hot code, which is pretty inappropriate for a malloc < 1564569941 915807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish the amd64 calling convention wasn't different for values and singleton structs. < 1564569965 463352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it? I can't remember for sure now. < 1564570027 330803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience with clang vs. gcc optimisation wars is that gcc knows many more optimisations, but clang is better at working out when to use them < 1564570103 924723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc sometimes goes a little mad with the optimisation and makes the code slower/longer as a result < 1564570149 427246 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesn't it go a little mad only when people pass inappropriate compiler options? < 1564570187 196869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well, that's what -O3 is asking for, yes; but I'd be surprised if -O2 could compete < 1564570223 489229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, something that's been bothering me: there are two encodings of the ret instruction on x86_64; branching /directly/ to the shorter encoding has a huge performance penalty, the longer one doesn't have that issue < 1564570244 631127 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, the optimization manual describes that < 1564570252 552245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out what sort of insanity would be happening in the hardware to make that happen < 1564570285 870200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I can understand why branching to a ret might be slow, but why would a repret be any faster? is there a reason not to just use the code underlying repret by default, or whenever there's just been a branch, etc.? < 1564570310 690296 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the cpu is trying to cache the likely target of jump instructions, for which it stores the address of the jump, but every other jump instruction is at least two bytes long... I don't know the details, but it doesn't seem too strange < 1564570343 478541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People use rep ret to avoid that, right? < 1564570349 881929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading about this. < 1564570354 60930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, rep ret is the recommended long encoding < 1564570361 381533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nop ret works too but is slower, for obvious reasons < 1564570423 965143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, you have to use rep rather than the more commonly seen data16 becauses data16 would actually affect the ret instruction and make it pop only 16 bits!) < 1564570589 992391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://repzret.org/p/repzret/ talks about the details of the branch predictor that cause this. < 1564570619 23304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing that surprised me: I assumed that commands like rep movsd were only worthwhile for small moves, and that bigger more complex code could do a large move faster < 1564570648 542901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's actually the opposite, rep movsd (and particularly rep movsq) has a large setup cost but runs very quickly when it gets going, and thus is only efficient for large moves < 1564570664 307423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's being recompiled into some sort of vector operation behind the scenes < 1564570684 822810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not surprised that there's a blog post about repret, but am surprised that it has its own website < 1564570720 346468 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the rep movsd thing is complicated, it depends a lot on which cpu brand and core you have < 1564570739 363464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think whether rep movsd is better or worse than alternatives has changed over the years in different uarchs. < 1564570754 237414 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to look up the details in the optimization manuals and Agner's optimization docs and Agner's memcpy implementation if you want to know the details < 1564570769 167143 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, what shachaf says < 1564570779 191030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the optimization guides basically say "don't try to figure it out yourself, the compiler manufacturers know what to do, so memcpy or __builtin_memcpy are the best options for copying things" < 1564570795 602874 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, exactly < 1564570810 189271 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the opt guides also give assembly source codes for them I think < 1564570823 883640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't the optimization guides written for compiler manufacturers? < 1564570877 214754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMD's is written for anyone who cares but assumes that compiler manufacturers will be a major audience < 1564570908 676528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how important compiler optimizations are. < 1564570921 244428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them are pretty important < 1564570933 43497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like storing things in registers rather than memory < 1564570965 23831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays people typically forget that that's an optimisation, but on -O0 most compilers will use registers only for the course of one instruction and put everything back into memory in between < 1564570965 735600 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's one of the earliest optimizations that compilers implemented < 1564570998 229279 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :way back when what would now count as a non-optimizing compiler of a low-level language counted as an optimizing compiler of a high-level languaeg < 1564571007 920612 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that requires solving an NP-complete problem is certainly an optimization. < 1564571044 384181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bold claim < 1564571069 980255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, the claim turned out much bolder than I intended. < 1564571079 46372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For "anything" substitute "This particular thing". < 1564571094 24808 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :register allocation? < 1564571105 966250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it optimally is NP-complete, I think < 1564571113 214662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doing better than nothing is much easierr < 1564571128 679936 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still hard to do it well enough < 1564571144 53189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the most important optimizations for a compiler? < 1564571150 201963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Register allocation seems important. < 1564571150 459297 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how that part of compilers work < 1564571153 935085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inlining is probably important. < 1564571179 553146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant folding is important because without it most of the other optimisations don't work either < 1564571180 352970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's certainly much more important in a language like C++ than in C. < 1564571206 767462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, constant folding, sure. < 1564571231 281116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've said before that I think some optimizations are a bad idea, like tail call "optimization". < 1564571250 104484 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: constant folding, "peephole optimizations" (a very general term), optimizing integer divisions by a compile-time constant and repeated integer divisions by the same divisor < 1564571261 112976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a great idea. it should be mandated by the language standard. < 1564571293 726246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strength reduction, bounds check elimination, loop unrolling < 1564571307 742636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think tail calls should be marked explicitly. < 1564571332 513117 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bounds check elimination is *very* important because without it, performance-hungry people will not use safe languages at all.) < 1564571336 850312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they are it should be an error to use an extra stack frame for them. But it shouldn't be implicit. < 1564571340 189322 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :outputting shorter forms of instructions (on x86), < 1564571392 565470 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I largely agree. I like Perl's use of goto for this. < 1564571394 236389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C compilers don't do bounds check elimination so how important can it be? < 1564571396 442173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm planning to write a program in asm at the moment, I've spent over a day just on trying to optimise the register allocation to allow for shorter instruction forms < 1564571403 81937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I haven't even started writing the program yet < 1564571413 473157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think they do < 1564571433 129509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they might see it as removing redundant conditionals rather than anything specifically related to bounds checking < 1564571450 471944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure. < 1564571548 700824 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know how that works. Does "goto &f" mean the same as "return f(@_)" but without the stack frame? < 1564571580 323426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I try to look this up everyone is talking about "tail recursion optimization" which is double silly because tail recursion is the most useless kind of tail call. < 1564571634 8793 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think that's basically it. < 1564571682 500556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in a language like C tail recursive functions are much more clearly written with a loop. < 1564571723 374201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useful cases of tail calls are mutually recursive functions like parsers, I guess. < 1564571759 779665 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also being able to emit the common instructions in all addressing modes, using indexed memory access for reading or writing when possible, immediates for compile-time constant operands, swapping arguments of commutative operations < 1564571797 551776 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, finite state machines especially. < 1564571835 545209 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :following which local variables are non-volatile and never taken address so the compiler knows that indirect assignments can't affect them < 1564571838 354684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are these actually important or are you just listing optimizations? < 1564571850 492827 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indirect reads too, so you can store them in registers < 1564571860 831004 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't really know, I haven't made a compiler yet < 1564571861 550526 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I meant something like, if you only have time to implement a few optimizations, which are the most important? < 1564571882 933151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think in a language like C tail recursive functions are much more clearly written with a loop. ← things like iterating over a binary tree look really ugly when one branch is recursive and the other is iterative, although of course the tail call doesn't save stack height there, just a bit of time < 1564571921 209439 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564571958 680752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, let's see. < 1564571998 67110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :void print_node(Node *n) { if (!n) return; print_node(n->left); print(n->value); print_node(n->right); } > 1564572003 620215 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64853&oldid=64830 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+114) 10 < 1564572032 949441 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :void print_node(Node *n) { while (1) { if (!n) return; print_node(n->left); print(n->value); n = n->right; } } < 1564572037 486512 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not quite < 1564572046 836893 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1564572050 909244 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it does < 1564572055 550907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you do lose some symmetry. < 1564572087 514365 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's closer to return &f(@_); which can matter if f is a prototyped function > 1564572102 272558 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64854&oldid=64851 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+185) 10/* Language overview */ < 1564572105 967868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know Perl at all so I made up some syntax. < 1564572108 578752 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If I had limited time and only wanted to implement one optimization technique it would probably be peephole optimization, but that's also because I typically don't want to think hard about the code I generate < 1564572140 148615 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, like, push ax; pop ax -> get rid of that < 1564572177 748824 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is register allocation in and of itself an optimization, relative to stack allocation? < 1564572207 981786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :push ax; pop ax isn't a no-op but I guess you can assume it doesn't matter. < 1564572208 281441 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: does it count as an optimization to be able to emit arithmetic instructions directly on memory operands, for both input and output, and arithmetic instructions with immediate operands? < 1564572213 239753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :storing things in registers rather than on the stack is a huge optimization and one of the most important < 1564572234 440975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if you're a compiler, you almost certainly don't want the side effect it has < 1564572342 959073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you /do/ want that effect, you'd likely write code like orb $0x0,-0x2(%rsp) (and would probably use a more negative number than -2) < 1564572416 624641 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the side effect? < 1564572432 375397 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It writes ax to the memory past the end of the stack. < 1564572446 77566 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, of course < 1564572446 110313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: pagefault (possibly upgraded to a segfault) if you're at the end of the paged-in portion of the stack < 1564572466 748602 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, also of course < 1564572479 979672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine the most important optimizations are the ones that save on the most important resources. < 1564572482 127484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course on x86_64, you're writing actual valid memory there (specifically, redzone memory) < 1564572504 718409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 32-bit x86 the ABI treats the memory there as undefined < 1564572509 482269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably executing a few extra instructions doesn't matter nearly as much as avoiding cache misses. < 1564572512 581692 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I should spend more time learning about this sort of thing < 1564572516 70012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so most people don't use things above the top of the stack there < 1564572529 433260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or mispredictions or something. < 1564572543 834797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You should write a fancy x86 assembler for me. < 1564572550 401998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote one but it's very simple and bad. < 1564572579 812743 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to do that < 1564572600 135143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in 2005, when my copy of the optimization guide was written, the most important factors were latencies in dependency chains, throughput of various units on the CPU, and things that caused the whole processor to stall < 1564572606 50355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Register allocation is such an important optimization that people don't think of it as a compiler optimization < 1564572631 609016 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of these same people are happy with stack-based VMs < 1564572643 230510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, most instructions that did nontrivial memory accesses would not stall anything and would not use much of the CPU's resources, but the result wouldn't be available for 4 cycles < 1564572653 243879 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://yasm.tortall.net/ fancy x86 assembler < 1564572659 446904 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, generating code for a fancy out-of-order processor is ridiculous. < 1564572683 449839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I don't need it anyway because the point of it is to write it myself. < 1564572686 398925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually had a really good idea for an instruction set design in the last couple of days < 1564572687 450312 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Level one: just generate some code that doesn't crash < 1564572726 230753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is, many of the registers are actually shift registers, you read from the end of them but write not at the end < 1564572738 911031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(either "the value this register will have after one shift" or with higher numbers than "one") < 1564572751 527170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a shift instruction to shift everything all at once < 1564572763 129153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dan Bernstein once posted about how the x87 stack instructions, where you get a free swap after every instruction, let you express things that register machines don't. < 1564572767 159694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this gives most of the advantages of VLIW but is much less specific to an individual processor < 1564572824 717823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, because the processor can decide for itself how to split the VLIW up, in the knowledge that two commands that happen between a register shift can't possibly interfere with each other (because no position in the shift register is simultaneously wriiteable and readable) < 1564572892 438710 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that sort of like those old SIMD cpus where if you write a register, you can't read it in the next instruction? < 1564572892 524449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jumps have their own jump target register, the jump instruction just jumps to the address in the jump target register, but you can load that an arbitrary distance beforehand < 1564572908 629389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, except you control how much delay there is < 1564572936 569355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about this is that temporaries don't need any nontrivial register allocation at all < 1564572964 853515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know when the instruction that uses the temporary is coming up, so you just place it in the appropriate point of the shift register < 1564572973 541487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more normal registers are only needed for values that you want to copy or persist < 1564573004 964858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even then, a command to store in multiple shift registers would likely be both useful and easy to implement, to save on copying) < 1564573028 108795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current plan is for immediates to be part of the instruction, but addresses (both store and load) to be taken from shift registers < 1564573047 325005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the processor can prefetch an address, or lock it into L1 cache, if it sees that an instruction is going to use it soon < 1564573079 728883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also makes double ll/sc really easy to implement, which means efficient lock-free algorithms < 1564573148 930621 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of advantages you can get without any of these fancy instruction set innovations, by just breaking compatibility and designing a new instruction set that is like the current practices but without the historical cruft < 1564573214 570622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my aim here is to design an instruction set that won't hurt optimisations in future processors and makes the optimisations done by current processors easier < 1564573299 289313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, although this is intellectually interesting, I'm unlikely to practically get the chance to design an instruction set that CPUs will actually use < 1564575499 778051 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Register allocation does not strike me as fun (YMMV). One reason I would want to target LLVM is so that it can do register allocation for me. < 1564575610 514290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, one thing I want is precise control and information over stack frame allocation, which I think might be tricky to get with LLVM. < 1564575633 86903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I want a function to be able to get its maximum stack usage at compiletime. < 1564575674 31478 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that might be impossible to know with certainty, with something like LLVM. < 1564575863 680501 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll target CIL instead. I already did that for one toy project. It's not terrible. < 1564575927 201848 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's backed by a standard, it runs on at least two platforms, where it has half-decent JIT compilers. < 1564576033 396505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another related thing I want is efficient coroutines, which is very similar code to stack frame allocation. < 1564576043 783875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how much LLVM can help you with that. < 1564576142 134692 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be surprised if LLVM could not do coroutines reasonably efficiently. < 1564576153 678946 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPIR-V as well which sounds interesting in that it stores a control-flow graph of SSA basic blocks. < 1564576175 371815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, why are GPU APIs all such a mess? < 1564576184 479651 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not all, but at least the common ones. < 1564576190 119049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know whether it can do general purpose programming at this point. < 1564576330 465598 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, LLVM has an implementation of coroutines, but if they're like C++2038's coroutines I probably don't want them. < 1564576347 348569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2038?! < 1564576367 199324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So next epoch? < 1564576379 126789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ω < 1564576424 559064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've probably forfeited my right to complain but now you're just being silly. < 1564576425 87927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++2038 actually came out in 1901 but the date underflowed < 1564576434 396546 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the last two digits of ω < 1564576477 539709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ coroutine proposal last I saw it does some heap allocations sometimes. < 1564576503 485488 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it said something like, don't worry, with only $x0 million of investment in compilers, we expect that optimizers can usually eliminate these allocations. < 1564576506 326041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you make a decimal reperesentation of ordinals, the last ω digits of ω will be zero. < 1564576538 779151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And only the ω-th digit will be one. < 1564576574 322649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(counting from the left) < 1564576577 528966 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1564576581 706603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(counting from the right) < 1564576589 338549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say "counting from the end" :P < 1564576746 94666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think recent GPU APIs are messy because they are common interfaces to a very wide range of different hardware, and they expose a lot of iffy details for performance reasons. (The original OpenGL had a pretty different attitude.) < 1564577035 343880 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s/ " *ium < 1564577036 30231 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :amnesium/ belgium/ corium/ < 1564577043 74986 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? amnesium < 1564577044 624973 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? corium < 1564577049 220980 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test. < 1564577050 88081 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor's core dump is made of. < 1564577051 930751 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? alumni < 1564577053 472893 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges. < 1564577121 754863 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s/ " *ion < 1564577122 459997 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :abbreviation/ action/ algebraic chess notation/ bessel function/ cat elimination/ cat introduction/ cipation/ citation/ civilization/ communication/ composition/ cut elimination/ damnation/ defenestration/ degeneration/ dereduntantation/ detonation/ eurovision/ hallucination/ hppavilion/ identity function/ implication/ indentity function/ intersection/ invention/ just intonation/ last-class function/ lion/ natural transformation/ nnection/ onion/ operation < 1564577147 706406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much more true that is of GPUs than CPUs. < 1564577185 30954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, someone should name an element "belgium". < 1564577199 932407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? belgium < 1564577200 975298 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The plural form of "Belgium" is "Belgia". > 1564577339 877833 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64855&oldid=64845 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+14) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564577365 280547 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64856&oldid=64855 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-14) 10 > 1564577459 437126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64857&oldid=64856 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+30) 10 > 1564578233 565173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64858&oldid=64821 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+28) 10 > 1564578337 583899 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64859&oldid=63439 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+27) 10 > 1564578450 803467 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64860&oldid=64858 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+6) 10 < 1564579007 940879 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564579438 835754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64861&oldid=63982 5* 03A 5* (-109) 10 < 1564580243 912089 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfstbnbgqqrrvzyf JOIN :#esoteric > 1564581558 26703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64862&oldid=64857 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10 < 1564582178 943519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1564582905 141567 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64863 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1483) 10Created page with "'''Brace For Impact''' is a [[Stack]]-based [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It has featured derived from Lisp,thou..." > 1564582910 134524 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64864&oldid=64860 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+128) 10 > 1564583347 799354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64865&oldid=64849 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* What Mains Numbers? */ > 1564584068 673706 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64866&oldid=64865 5* 03A 5* (+825) 10/* Implementations */ < 1564587127 898432 :oklopol!~androirc@85-76-162-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564587313 493162 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564589367 30499 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-139-94-170.range86-139.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1564590585 755591 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/catseye/Castile/blob/master/src/castile/stackmac.py < 1564590648 455409 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. > 1564593429 446942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64867&oldid=64864 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-419) 10 > 1564593545 641172 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64868&oldid=64867 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+2) 10 > 1564593763 112196 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64869&oldid=64868 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+153) 10 > 1564593947 200268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64870&oldid=64869 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+137) 10 < 1564593982 54262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564594951 802453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64871&oldid=64863 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10 < 1564595675 234256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564597085 616763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, I caught this stupid fly that somehow got in here < 1564597123 531307 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow > 1564597161 57745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64872&oldid=58894 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-157) 10Most of these proped categories are too obvious to be added. A few need to be discussed on the talk pag, not on the page itself. > 1564598750 289033 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64873&oldid=64872 5* 03Ais523 5* (+157) 10Undo revision 64872 by [[Special:Contributions/Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]] ([[User talk:Areallycoolusername|talk]]): those aren't proposed categories, but listings of possibilities that are too common to be categorised (for exhaustiveness) > 1564599282 391610 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64874&oldid=64871 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+606) 10 < 1564599889 472800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1564600567 671575 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64875&oldid=64874 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+623) 10/* (a'),(s;),(d.), (f=), and (y~) */ < 1564603248 198094 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564603447 156842 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1564603459 74613 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564603459 623887 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1564604151 220633 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564604964 805488 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1564605449 710018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? scoia'tael < 1564605450 698040 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :scoia'tael? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605462 726005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? journey < 1564605463 702034 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :journey? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605468 446639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? distancve < 1564605469 470067 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :distancve? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605469 814267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? distance < 1564605470 862108 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :distance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605470 973827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? metric < 1564605472 196204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :metric? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605791 127813 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mertic < 1564605792 214244 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mertic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605805 128801 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? paliorompot < 1564605806 174515 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :paliorompot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605917 454559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? negligence < 1564605918 584293 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :negligence? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605923 451418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? insurgence < 1564605924 462195 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :insurgence? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605928 988861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? negligance < 1564605930 41703 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :negligance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605931 26221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? insurgance < 1564605932 129169 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :insurgance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605942 26388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? indigence < 1564605943 188186 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :indigence? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564605943 701978 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? indigance < 1564605944 738098 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :indigance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564606139 416573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; echo *[ae]nce < 1564606140 81638 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ance insurance intelligence persistence reference science sentience this sentence < 1564606145 151816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? insurance < 1564606146 173945 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insurance is a closed loop. < 1564606156 919252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? science < 1564606158 25852 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semi-automatic text generation. < 1564606159 495518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sentience < 1564606160 706433 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wisdom is the primary goal of sentience. < 1564606162 402191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this sentence < 1564606163 629001 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sentence is just. Taneb invented it. < 1564606167 36963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? persistence < 1564606168 142625 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since. < 1564606701 781497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? armchair < 1564606702 802169 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :armchair? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564606734 56881 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564606822 957439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hatis ld.so < 1564606824 587110 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hatis: not found < 1564606826 206772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis ld.so < 1564606827 878365 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ld.so(8) - dynamic linker/loader > 1564607307 471776 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64876 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+64) 10Created page with "Some random guy who made [[ACL]]. What more do you need to know?" < 1564610007 389876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564613078 327491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564614595 21217 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that the time complexity of adding two 2 digit integers is linear in the smaller term. But you can choose N sums to memoize to improve the worst case. How should you choose the N sums? < 1564614970 954247 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564614997 116040 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric