< 1562025608 314048 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, in the main key maze, i have moved the `0' key to the left of the `1'-`9' keys < 1562025618 761933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric < 1562025623 432961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was going to correct myself and then I thought no one would be so pedantic as to comment on it. < 1562025636 23378 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I mean a computer that has a numeric keypad connected to it, of course. < 1562025657 251253 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: hi ski < 1562025668 474398 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :heya shachaf < 1562025676 120495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, I think we have several overly pedantic people here :) < 1562025725 633794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i award you 2.147 billion points < 1562025774 479174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But there was an undercurrent to my message... I don't like laptop keyboards. So even for the computers that do have a builtin keyboard (which typically lack a numeric keypad), I'd use an external keyboard (and then I usually have a numeric keypad out of habit, and also because I use it for window placement). < 1562025804 865206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sophisticated < 1562025814 180252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^32 < 1562025816 265236 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4294967296 < 1562025819 587347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must be some kind of power user < 1562025820 472029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1562025821 439999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^31 < 1562025825 579552 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2147483648 < 1562025834 633733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nah I'm just idiosyncratic < 1562025851 290944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski is only 483648 points away < 1562025852 911927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still use fvwm2, despite all its flaws. < 1562025876 551507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using i3 but I'm beginning to suspect that tiling window managers are not quite the right thing. < 1562025898 225725 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :points ? < 1562025901 207767 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think carefully about the standard window management workflows. < 1562025930 85214 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using i3 (but with my own status line implementation), and it supports floating windows as well as tiling windows, and also tabbed windows. < 1562025941 759614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I also wrote my own status line implementation. < 1562025960 539840 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say it is for use with having multiple screens, but I only have one, and it still works OK with only one screen. < 1562025968 368048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It supports floating windows but they're second-class citizens. < 1562025978 244943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My status line implementation is so fancy. < 1562025989 923558 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What stuff did you include in the status line? < 1562026017 940952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chet it out: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/statustext.c < 1562026075 737954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has things like brightness and volume and CLIPBOARD/PRIMARY size. < 1562026095 860187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In my computer I put four things: mail counter (checks only if the lease on the mailbox file is broken), system load average (for one minute), RAM usage, date, time (including seconds). < 1562026097 229576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it listens for updates to all those things so it updates instantly instead of waiting up to a second. < 1562026153 724648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :// It's probably not a good reason. < 1562026189 750104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think eventually I'll replace the status bar with my own program so I can draw little graphs and fancy things. < 1562026207 838083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm not going to look up what the reason is, but I maintain high confidence in my statement. < 1562026301 963139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I concur < 1562026324 368433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would extend the statement to the existence of pulseaudio :) < 1562026333 147598 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems reasonable. < 1562026349 551917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it has stopped causing me trouble some years ago) < 1562026351 158986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the libasound API but it ends up going through pulseaudio. < 1562026388 683826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have funny effects like a 1s audio delay when playing video... which went away when pulseaudio wasn't running. < 1562026409 425455 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux audio is such a terrible mess. < 1562026412 429679 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so bad. < 1562026424 588591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when you want to do anything close to real-time audio. < 1562026463 576977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My current problem is an inexplicable 1s fade-in when starting a new audio stream. Could be worse... < 1562026522 939407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This statustext program is so good. < 1562026535 233549 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run it under strace and it does a fairly reasonable number of system calls for every run. < 1562026574 597211 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also use many non-ASCII characters, and I instead am using only ASCII characters. < 1562026603 798250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :❓ < 1562026610 571967 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not in ASCII but they are in Unicode. < 1562026632 376138 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, as long as the characters are in the font you are using, then it is OK, I suppose. < 1562026675 780675 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe CP437 would be better. < 1562026691 203925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, clearly the right thing would be to just use bitmaps. < 1562026716 517211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also ridiculous that I'm drawing a volume meter using characters like ▋. < 1562026726 447880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an absurdly complicated way of drawing a rectangle. < 1562026737 224547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :░▒▓█ are in unicode :) < 1562026752 951048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that help? < 1562026753 802781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I have not had problems with audio on Linux, except that sometimes if mednafen is started without waiting too long after audio stops playing, then sometimes the audio doesn't work in mednafen. < 1562026768 902013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The characters I'm using give one-eighth precision. < 1562026781 614058 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, and also PC character set (Unicode includes all of the characters in PC character set, but conversion of some of them to Unicode can be ambiguous sometimes). < 1562026794 722746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, I just mused about which CP437 characters I miss the most. < 1562026803 468411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sure. < 1562026822 77965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm doing a few system calls more than necessary. < 1562026825 952393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those grayscale characters are near the top of my list. < 1562026839 825585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :codes 176, 177, and 178, IIRC. < 1562026849 590530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately Xlib is doing three identical recvmsg() calls on the same socket that all return EAGAIN before it gives up. < 1562026853 468116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your deal Xlib? < 1562026858 528203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/l/l,/ < 1562026861 531860 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, those are the PC character codes for them; also 219 for the full block < 1562026888 158025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the new io_uring system call interface in Linux? < 1562026911 130433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that I remember despite not having used them in ... oh ... 15-20 years, says something. < 1562026912 421415 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1562026931 936142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tg < 1562026944 991074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does asynchronous I/O with a ring buffer interface to the kernel < 1562026955 15037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do I/O with zero context switches < 1562026972 422011 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1562026975 839955 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I designed UTCS/UTCE (differently than before) to specifically be a character set for use with fix pitch, without needing large tables to figure out widths and how to render stuff and so on; you can just render fixed size bitmaps next to each other and it will work. Also, they include stuff found in many fix pitch character sets of many computers and terminals, some of which is in Unicode and some isn't. < 1562026991 860267 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably if you run out of stuff to do you would do a system call and sleep? < 1562027013 87707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, you can always wait for responses. < 1562027026 638872 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds pretty dope < 1562027030 677523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even then it's so much better than the existing interfaces. < 1562027043 999080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there were no realistic interfaces for asynchronous I/O in Linux. < 1562027059 418452 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only aio which was scow. < 1562027077 868896 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean asynchronous in a sense different from a epoll() loop? < 1562027087 143030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean disk I/O. < 1562027090 131000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... POSIX! < 1562027113 964924 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also if you don't feed the kernel async requests fast enough it'll stop polling on your request buffer until you wake it up again. Which is fine. < 1562027133 831322 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a strange bug when [_][][]? executes silently and [__+][][]? fails to pop an argument for some reason, but [___+][][]? again is good and leaves 2 _ 0 on the stack < 1562027147 395177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The io_uring person was suggesting that they could implement support for arbitrary system calls using the same interface. < 1562027154 120622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that be the tgest < 1562027383 930053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably upgrade this program to not poll battery/filesystem/whatever on every run. < 1562027422 416716 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead it should do them on their own schedule like everything else, using a timer or something. < 1562027465 962907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This'll be important (?) if I make it an X program that redraws at 60fps or something. Right now it's not very important. < 1562027574 777667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I have some terrible bugs in that area :) < 1562027620 626113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: [_][][]? is supposed to loop, right? < 1562027675 383411 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should evaluate [_], take _, see that it’s false and go evaluating “else” part, [], but this doesn’t do anything and it’s all done < 1562027747 71648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I interpreted the condition wrong... let me check the old description < 1562027776 523812 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :contrary, [__+][][]? should evaluate [__+], find a nonfalse __+ on the stack, then go loop… oh it seems I’m lucky it doesn’t work as expected, it would give an infinite loop < 1562027778 630990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it had a "≠" there, must have misread. < 1562027789 483299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought it just would loop once < 1562027817 407890 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I remember that of course that should be an infinite loop < 1562027843 694115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can do if with a little more trickery < 1562027898 230233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine something like [^][][]? with a bit of setup code. < 1562027921 334642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a bit tricky < 1562027926 32217 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, yes, we simply do: [][ _][]? < 1562027932 749485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that < 1562027959 959522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[][_][_]?. < 1562027961 588849 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ is one of intended use-cases also < 1562027983 659598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could walk here and there with this loop < 1562028009 72548 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stop when we had trespassed < 1562028066 831231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, sorry, your code is correct. I missed what the _ really did. < 1562028087 628274 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1562028098 188267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like this C program? < 1562028104 364414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the macros Case and Default. And Struct. < 1562028140 890756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> run "[Hello, world!\n];" [] < 1562028141 20786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1562028152 929082 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ^^ look at all this undefined behavior :) < 1562028170 439846 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1562028190 684326 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s too extended an understanding of [...] syntax < 1562028226 679060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's allowed by the specification, I think. < 1562028247 871758 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I noticed that, and I do not have another comment now < 1562028274 477062 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a fancy abstraction layer for X11 clients. < 1562028290 3644 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I have fixed a sequence of typos of various dumbness but it seems I need to continue that after I’ll take some rest < 1562028290 619428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It supports a lot of fancy things. It's great. < 1562028331 189513 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I sometimes get error messages about the CDROM is not ready, even though I am not using the CDROM? < 1562028331 308893 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: But it's a particular implementation choice, of course. a) programs are represented by strings are represented by bit strings of length 8x. b) ; actually accepts any bit string with length divisible by 8. < 1562028402 34774 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's allowed by the specification, I think. => heresy :D okay it’s compliant < 1562028416 162597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: So the program a) relies on a particular choice of the [] encoding, and b) relies on undefined behvior of ;. So the program is definitely not compliant. < 1562028493 986192 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I represent them almost this same way, though I do that only if it’s necessary, and in other cases these blocks are “compiled” lists of opcodes (with and without arguments) < 1562028549 310994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I missed the ; at the end < 1562028550 932854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: which indicates another level of complications < 1562028583 906943 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought 'H', 'e' etc. print themselves, though it would be a stretch for ' ' < 1562028588 773542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: oh, yeah without the ; that behavior would be wierd. < 1562028591 654885 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weird < 1562028641 368167 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, at least, more weird) < 1562028752 477384 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :initially I represented blocks as simple strings but then I was ambushed by parsing interleaving with execution and I then decided it would be better to differentiate, and I couldn’t find a simple enough representation of compiled code… then there were bugs related to a forgotten custom string conversion function in the block→context converter… oh < 1562028769 904948 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that is behind now < 1562029118 597991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.68 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1562029255 64001 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1562029270 945009 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562030515 965050 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought to make up set of Magic: the Gathering cards, such as "Ziveruskex and Strixan" set of cards, but clearly a lot more than two cards should be needed, and also other stuff. Such as, if you want to draft this set, then rarities should be assigned, too. If some cards are used in multiple sets, the rarities may be difference per set in case that helps for drafting purpose. < 1562031352 97780 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1562031415 601065 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562031661 998265 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1562031778 183074 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :schlock mercenary is fun, but almost every attempt by the author to make connections to real science makes me cringe. ORBITS DON'T WORK THAT WAY. (I think.) < 1562031873 865018 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will you notify them about that? < 1562031914 705934 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's way too late, he's just started the last book in a series of 20. < 1562031989 36193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think people who understand physics are his audience, anyway. < 1562032067 205385 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and others probably have griped about his science before. < 1562032398 38875 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-anqaybjjbpbwldms QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1562033325 222516 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Quit: totally pointless restart < 1562033474 480305 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1562034314 572526 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562035103 139330 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :See if I wrote something wrong in story I wrote. If it is wrong, I hope to correct it please. < 1562036691 108755 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. Punctree, can I add some related links? It took me a while to click that zippers were the main point, not simply binary trees, and that "zipper" was not not being used in a loose informal sense. < 1562036730 26500 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.haskell.org/Zipper seems to cover the basics with regards to binary trees. I _think_ that's how Punctree is using them < 1562036768 311128 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/huet-zipper.pdf appears to be the origin paper for the zipper structure < 1562037043 120333 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now see why (2 _ _) isn't so sensible. The new 'context' term is better. It makes it clearer why there is only going to be one hole. I originally thought a hole was a way to construct a non-perfect binary tree. I now see that it has a special meaning wrt zippers < 1562037239 127430 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes misunderstand things. I thought for months that zz038 was working on a novel network time protocol (NTP) server, until the cognitive dissonance got too much and it suddenly struck me what NNTP actually was < 1562037582 100270 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a NNTP server software already, and now I am working on the client software. < 1562037627 68321 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: I think if the links is useful then it could be added; if it is found to be wrong, someone will remove it < 1562038090 435354 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You do not have to use this server and client software together; you can use any server software and any client software.) < 1562038563 648179 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my new NNTP software? > 1562038630 805267 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EXAMPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63862&oldid=59649 5* 03A 5* (-12) 10No quotes anymore > 1562038727 48855 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EXAMPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63863&oldid=63862 5* 03A 5* (+49) 10 > 1562038942 756121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5* 10deleted "[[02ThisIsTheFoxe10]]": Author request: content was: "{{Db-empty}} {{Db-g7}}, {{Db-author}}, {{Db-blanked}}, {{Db-self}}", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/ThisIsTheFoxe|ThisIsTheFoxe]]" ([[User talk:ThisIsTheFoxe|talk]]) > 1562039144 663569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EXAMPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63864&oldid=63863 5* 03A 5* (+95) 10/* Syntax */ > 1562039339 223908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EXAMPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63865&oldid=63864 5* 03A 5* (+376) 10/* If statement */ > 1562039954 331401 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63866&oldid=59297 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+1530) 10 < 1562040797 578774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Did you improve @pl? < 1562041148 827010 :^!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :uplime > 1562041549 174031 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63867&oldid=63866 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+158) 10 < 1562041649 237303 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1562041656 123613 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl join join < 1562041656 368252 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :join join < 1562041658 73347 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1562041710 356244 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl join id < 1562041710 677599 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :join id < 1562041721 858739 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl join join join < 1562041722 192515 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :join join join < 1562041737 992764 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl join join id < 1562041738 421594 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :id > 1562041906 18209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Voltage200714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63868 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+1) 10Created page with "h" > 1562043530 838672 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fetlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63869&oldid=53186 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+91) 10 < 1562044127 365328 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:818:d936:3c3a:e066 JOIN :#esoteric > 1562046853 372409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Punctree14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63870&oldid=63857 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+312) 10/* Related links */ some introductory reading on 'zippers' < 1562047255 497463 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found those links helpful. The Haskell page even has diagrams. < 1562047448 165942 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Arseniiv asked here about adding math formatting to the wiki a while ago. I'd make use of that. Some sort of TeX like formatting. MathJax looks nice, with in browser HTML and CSS formatting of formulas. < 1562047523 711841 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the other mediawiki plugins look to be a pain to install. Is this a wiki feature request that is likely to be fulfilled? < 1562047723 256334 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1562047741 613034 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1562047748 111184 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1562048446 745633 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63871&oldid=57663 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+2100) 10 > 1562048489 645867 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63872&oldid=63871 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+20) 10link fix < 1562049438 495739 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1562050880 513634 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1562052447 192309 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63873&oldid=63872 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+800) 10 < 1562052908 918209 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an ugly language name < 1562053065 367571 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1562055274 422770 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zz038: Is your NNTP server live and public somewhere? NNTP via telnet looks like it would be workable enough for low volume messages. < 1562055308 904160 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/0/o/ rry < 1562055551 554424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1562055642 755154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I found a spider in my bathroom. Two of its legs kept moving after I severed them from the body of the spider. That seems like relevant information that should be mentioned in the description of spiders in the monster manual. < 1562056202 976785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: while the computer is powered off, try to remove both the data cable and the power cable from the CD drive and the other end of the power cable from the motherboard, then plug them in again. maybe you were getting an error because the connection to the CD drive sometimes broke. luckily these modern SATA motherboards are somewhat tolerant about that, so they don't just fry like old ones sometimes < 1562056208 980939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :did. < 1562056296 80770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: people have complained about the science in the Order of the Stick too, but it rarely comes up < 1562056330 375741 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I am using rfc-1436 and telnet to search your site for NNTP information, I imagine it's like half the experience. I can read, but I can't post. Huh, rfc3977 (NNTP update) was written in 2006 < 1562056695 636526 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, gopher is fun, and nc is better for accessing it < 1562057223 362128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. though zzo38 is also running a http server that lets you access most of the files on gopher, except there's at least three root directories that you have to know about ("/textfiles", "/mtg", "/sql" or something) < 1562057399 262552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-231.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1562058597 628984 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1562058615 280997 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1562059001 713920 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1562060210 945960 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1562060249 787871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I did something in @unpl, and discovered(?) a bug in @pl < 1562060273 703985 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: which I might fix if I figure it out, but mostly I won't touch @pl < 1562060329 471229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the bug? < 1562060618 857532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \x -> \x y -> x < 1562060619 120699 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :const (const id) < 1562060633 759739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \z -> \x y -> x < 1562060633 998097 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :const const < 1562060679 362334 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Golly. < 1562060707 868440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all lambdabot (and lambdabot itself) plugins are of the highest code quality > 1562062926 49969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63874&oldid=39793 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+1) 10/* Brainfuck converter */ http link doesn't work (anymore?) > 1562062951 572435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63875 5* 03A 5* (+623) 10Created page with "[[SLOS]] stands for Scripting Language that's Outstandingly Simple; it tries to create a scripting language(not an interpreted language) that is very esoterically simple. It i..." > 1562063600 5167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63876&oldid=63875 5* 03A 5* (+799) 10/* Tools (45 points) */ > 1562064489 967624 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63877&oldid=63876 5* 03A 5* (-438) 10/* Program lengths by language (aka Example programs) */ SLOS is doing terribly; I will reset the example programs. > 1562064734 201356 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63878&oldid=63877 5* 03A 5* (+225) 10/* Program lengths by language (aka Example programs) */ < 1562064806 883249 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1562065330 713894 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63879&oldid=63878 5* 03A 5* (+549) 10/* Program lengths by language (aka Example programs) */ > 1562065448 417324 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63880&oldid=63879 5* 03A 5* (+32) 10/* Test file readable (11 bytes) */ > 1562065670 326442 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63881&oldid=63880 5* 03A 5* (+258) 10/* Program lengths by language (aka Example programs) */ < 1562065827 458661 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I discovered sqlnetnews and made a test post. I like. < 1562066275 78637 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1562066721 453257 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-170-8-235.range86-170.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1562066874 945267 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1562067365 217723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"please verify your device" ... please stop suggesting that nobody else is using temporary cookies that don't survive the end of the session :( < 1562069042 112354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: fun. \x x y -> y is "alpha-renamed" to \$0 $1 $1 -> $1. Which is not wrong, of course... < 1562069059 385122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But probably not intended. < 1562069147 755881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, this is just embarrassing. let v' = "$" ++ show (M.size fm) ... sure... that must be the size of the context? < 1562069761 276937 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562070294 707730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there, fixed: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/eebe60ac0700dcfbd34ea4870fa3286e7fb4a58b < 1562070315 537699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I won't recompile lambdabot for just that... at least not yet) < 1562071842 443087 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562071940 496591 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not recompiling lambdabot because you want to fix other bugs in @pl, such as https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-02-02.html#l5d ? < 1562072080 847718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, you said that was hard to fix < 1562072193 681977 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stop suggesting such things before you just apply a Cisco style "fix" on it < 1562074162 236660 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1562074478 253473 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562074590 274210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562074628 732370 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1562074634 89939 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1562076031 224034 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1562076085 157516 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562076320 223639 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562076344 869609 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: There is a timeout, although I should fix it so that it will reset the timeout if valid input has been received. < 1562078191 738225 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I fixed that now > 1562080174 894473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Garbage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63882&oldid=63710 5* 03A 5* (-18) 10/* Implementation */ Shorter implementation < 1562081754 864229 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1562082303 365701 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1562082323 231656 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1562084002 855868 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1562084988 438771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1562085187 413305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Client Quit < 1562085204 548182 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1562087588 540132 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1562087683 437613 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1562092472 279503 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1562092808 357937 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1562094048 532878 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Fuckerturd 5* 10New user account < 1562094610 455417 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1562095112 191513 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63883&oldid=63843 5* 03Fuckerturd 5* (+176) 10/* Introductions */ < 1562095675 220845 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1562097169 627126 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host31-54-142-171.range31-54.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1562097650 952706 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1562097959 287686 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1562097987 76395 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1562098500 484342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I see you've improved the description of the loop builtin in the holed tree language < 1562098507 123859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1562098698 965859 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1562098742 741908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :execution of the loop continues until it falls into a hole < 1562099400 852125 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: although I don't understand why you added a while loop primitive rather than a simple conditional primitive > 1562099422 678279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DerpText14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63884 5* 03Fuckerturd 5* (+2106) 10Created page with "DerpText, not to be confused with [[Derpcode|similarly]] [[Derplang|named]] languages, is a language made by [[User:Fuckerturd]]. DERP. == Syntax == Commands have one or more..." < 1562099444 822131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or both) < 1562099522 717432 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: one ring to rule them all < 1562099569 618976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: sure, but why a complicated ring? < 1562099590 538560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way, writing a simple conditional is a bit complicated < 1562099718 547976 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don’t know what I was thinking at the time, but maybe it’s a vestige of BF < 1562099775 740725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what contributes to this is that the two test primitives are built in a somewhat ugly way too, so there's no easy way that I can see to use them to make a value conditional < 1562099779 208494 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though a simple conditional is not so complicated: [][ _][]? < 1562099789 396127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... let me check < 1562099822 968287 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dycrlhdzcmlnmahs JOIN :#esoteric < 1562099834 514289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hmm yes, that might work < 1562099980 655657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can probably use the % # @ = tests to write conditionals < 1562099990 864001 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, I didn’t fix any interpreter bugs today, I haven’t yet worked on it. One of these bugs is with forever loop [__+][][]? — for some reason it tries to pop an element from an empty stack, but I’m yet to find out at what step exactly < 1562099992 343927 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the < primitive that works a bit odd < 1562100032 663607 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: do you think it really needs a rework? < 1562100043 182578 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e ^ < 1562100079 519572 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it can be argued that the current form has some pros < 1562100102 687954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: dunno. I still find it confusing how you introduce a lot of tricky notation < 1562100109 845447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then reference them all in the commands list < 1562100131 889267 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: No clue! Works in my unpublished (and unfinished) interpreter. < 1562100133 383722 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it when a projection function works like T → Maybe SubT, < is exactly thus < 1562100134 325835 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you're right about the block conditional < 1562100138 204567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is simpler than I thought < 1562100173 464012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I still find it confusing how you introduce a lot of tricky notation> I could name all that with words, would it make a difference? < 1562100181 972156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: as far as I understand things, it really should not pop from an empty stack, so that must be a bug in the interpreter :) < 1562100200 591982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I'm thinking more like introduce fewer, and just use a definition directly in the statement list < 1562100226 863527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, introduce the substitution middle circle, but write most of everything out in the statement list. possibly in an alternate list or something. < 1562100259 725673 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: as far as I understand things, it really should not pop from an empty stack, so that must be a bug in the interpreter :) => yeah, I agree, or we’re both mistaken < 1562100298 844771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you are using your own interpreter, right? < 1562100304 626508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also confusing how you use "τ→" and "π→" as infix operators. Use a subscript or overscript or something. < 1562100331 360155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as you also use "→" for something totally different < 1562100365 991533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use "→" for something different in the "Runtime" section < 1562100393 658780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should probably use some completely different notation instead of "τ→" and "π→" < 1562100472 277102 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : like, introduce the substitution middle circle, but write most of everything out in the statement list. possibly in an alternate list or something. => maaaybe. Seems like a lot of work. Initially I reasoned that pure mathematical definitions placed on their own could describe semantics better. E. g. actual commands use _ as a return when the operation is undefined, and that specific _ is not something intrinsic to the operation itself < 1562100510 858279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also a bit unsure about "_" as the notation for hole < 1562100548 460750 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you should probably use some completely different notation instead of "τ→" and "π→" => yeah, these are probably not the best notation < 1562100561 102024 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why _, though? < 1562100573 358975 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have seen it somewhere, even < 1562100597 355458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: you are using your own interpreter, right? => yeah. Sorry, missed that < 1562100661 992469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "_" is confusing because some languages like Haskell and Rust and Prolog use it to mean (sort of) an unnamed variable in a pattern match, and that notation seems to be well-known, so where you're writing matches like "t′ = u′ ∘ (2 _ u)" it gets confusing, you have to remember that that's not what you mean here. < 1562100671 532626 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my interpreter also has some debug commands, pretty useful to find out what goes wrong without calling separate functions of the module in REPL < 1562100698 51104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what interpreter? interpreter for what? < 1562100775 996041 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: though, I positively see the rationale against _, I’m more interested in possible replacements. *? < 1562100815 211620 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what interpreter? interpreter for what? => Punctree interpreter I’m writing < 1562100818 555807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like _ < 1562100866 309404 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it could be − or — < 1562100882 363813 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m even in some favor of — < 1562100883 26635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not "*". you are already using right arrow as an infix, small circle as both an infix and a suffix, and "2" as a prefix with two arguments. if you started to use "*", that would look like it might be an infix too. parsing your formulas to a tree is already mentally hard enough. < 1562100887 200317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with unicode I might use □ < 1562100914 700128 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: now I see a square < 1562100938 965064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: which is a common notation for holes... in term rewriting < 1562100962 177766 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: also maybe I should take 2 away; in my interpreter, I show trees and contexts as 0, _ and () < 1562100972 635897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: isn't that still the _other_ kind of hole, the one of which you can have any number in a tree, just like "_"? < 1562100974 128980 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way it’s both compact and not-unreadable < 1562100984 375876 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'd hope this extends to lambda calculus and from there to all the type systems etc, but I'm not sure.) < 1562100996 495852 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: eww. add a colon or something. < 1562101003 947719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "we" don't distinguish between those two. < 1562101006 249784 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah, I thought it’s a character replacement, not an actual square < 1562101022 117281 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why :D < 1562101040 551779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or better still, angle brackets and a colon < 1562101054 220662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: When both multi-hole contexts and contexts are around, a context is a multi-hole context with exactly one hole. < 1562101057 278463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I mean the flat angle brackets, not less than signs < 1562101064 638865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok < 1562101075 610085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t want a linear length increase of terms representing code blocks, they are huge < 1562101090 339905 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was about adding colons < 1562101115 25540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? this is for the documentation, it has nothing to do with how an interpreter or anything actually represents them < 1562101120 105251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's notation < 1562101156 520084 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though if one is to change 0 to an empty string, something like ⟨_:⟨:⟩⟩ can be shorter < 1562101164 744041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE NO < 1562101166 711916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1562101181 505410 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're trying to make an esoteric documentation, but I don't think that's your goal < 1562101200 191832 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what? this is for the documentation, it has nothing to do with how an interpreter or anything actually represents them => of course, but sometimes I want to print them for debugging reasons < 1562101249 167714 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I’ve forgot if I agreed to some changes today, and to what ones < 1562101260 631751 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: then keep the colon but drop the parenthesis except when the term is on the left of a colon, when writing for debugging, then the common case of a list will be compact < 1562101280 725645 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more compact still than brackets around every pair < 1562101301 951014 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1562101322 342469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use (a0,a1,a2,a3:t) for a list, meaning (a0:(a2:(a3:t))) < 1562101332 110212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use (a0,a1,a2,a3:t) for a list, meaning (a0:(a1:(a2:(a3:t)))) < 1562101343 951047 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe I should write all that somewhere < 1562101344 993739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (a0,a1,a2,a3) meaning (a0:(a1:(a2:(a3:0)))) < 1562101376 683674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that only if you actually use lists, because the language doesn't seem to be specifically primed for that < 1562101399 999580 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly < 1562101447 436877 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though cons list manipulation would arise sooner or later in the code < 1562101464 719202 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone would write something big enough < 1562101493 559630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can stick to just colons with parenthesis if you want, Haskell style < 1562101512 715900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where (a0:a1:a2:a3:t) means (a0:(a1:(a2:(a3:t)))) < 1562101527 943253 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1562101908 736567 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1562102727 95446 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host31-54-142-171.range31-54.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1562103286 654171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, it's quite creative how the runners managed to get Super Metroid back to GDQ this time (for Summer GDQ 2019) after that the game wasn't featured because they ran out of popular categories to show. < 1562105213 178421 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :^ < 1562105918 56835 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1562106080 728327 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1562106418 767877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-40.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1562106472 576345 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1562107928 310655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like SAT solvers? < 1562108473 961308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a new question, I think. < 1562108499 657372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the old question, "Do you like this?", in disguise. < 1562108515 97861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The disguise is that "this" has been substituted with "SAT solvers". < 1562108542 645502 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I mean you've asked this precise question before. < 1562108551 951480 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I ask you, though? < 1562108568 472150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so. < 1562108582 174538 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you like them at the time? < 1562108960 212111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone suggested that dancing links is a good algorithm for SAT. < 1562108964 6209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05.html#lJjc < 1562108978 805236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit skeptical of that claim but I wonder how well it works in practice. < 1562108981 99487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dancing links... is missing the point. < 1562109011 95719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CDCL is where SAT solvers get their power from, and dancing links does nothing even remotely resembling that. < 1562109020 582586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I usually feel distress when I read chat logs of myself. So I won't click that link. < 1562109029 416201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a dancing links elements in the two watched literal optimization though. < 1562109044 954039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what's the element? < 1562109079 496242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the 2-watched-literal scheme and particularly how it doesn't need to be reset when backtracking. < 1562109098 221633 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1562109110 687097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well when you set a literal to true you set the clauses on its watch list aside. < 1562109138 827540 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "put aside" sounds more correct. < 1562109147 588200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess both work. < 1562109267 119280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I found out that apparently parallelizing SAT solvers is very hard. < 1562109275 187800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was, like, whoa, dude. < 1562109313 313070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expected it to be easy and I still don't really understand why it isn't. < 1562109420 30077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. It's tricky to estimate the size of a subtask in advance, and it's tricky to communicate all the learned clauses to other workers. Oh and single-threaded SAT solver do a lot of restarts... < 1562109469 860985 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1562109490 209387 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naive parallelization is easy (just give each thread a copy of the clause set and its own prefix to exhaustively search.) Work balancing and actually obtaining a speedup is... oh I don't know whether it's hard but I can see a lot of potential obstacles. < 1562109526 104356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just thinking of naive parallelization like that. Say to two threads. < 1562109566 108042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if one thread terminates early fairly often, once it gets working on a prefix that doesn't terminate early, it should be able to proceed mostly independently, shouldn't it? < 1562109591 578686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets worse because actually SAT solvers may simplify the clause set as well. That's another thing that doesn't parallelize well and needs communication to benefit all workers. < 1562109599 976590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course all sorts of tricky things are going on like CDCL, so the clause list isn't constant. < 1562109617 601988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if you're unlucky that prefix took 99% of the single-threaded SAT solver time. < 1562109633 808720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I imagine you can have the threads synchronize once in a while to get an up-to-date clause list or something. < 1562109656 803137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Sure, but if the second thread terminates early, it can synchronize with the first thread and get a new prefix. < 1562109669 263749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never looked at what the challenges really are. There should be half a dozen papers on parallelizing SAT solvers. < 1562109678 56383 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that you only need to do so many synchronizations before they both have nontrivial prefixes. < 1562109722 161843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably read those papers, but why do that when I can just make up naive algorithms? < 1562109780 357436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just use an existing SAT solver :P < 1562109789 177241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably write a SAT solver so I learn how all these things work. < 1562109867 504164 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully SAT solvers are useful for typechecking(?) < 1562109935 599296 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the feeling that if your type system requires a SAT solver, it's too complicated. < 1562110026 419793 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1562110042 183895 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/:(/:′( < 1562110096 885007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`t̀ype systeḿ´ < 1562110097 734490 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: t̀ype: not found < 1562110101 111425 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1562110103 259592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1562110178 969083 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, I got a missing mouse cursor. I tried restarting X, but then I just got a blank screen; the text mode worked though, even though X doesn't. But I rebooted the computer and now it works OK. < 1562110316 9829 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The missing mouse cursor is a problem I have seen on Windows as well; it does not seem to be specific to Linux.) < 1562110328 241991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.214.149 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1562110346 19326 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe your mouse cursor was on another computer. < 1562110351 707719 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps it slid off the screen onto your desk. < 1562110602 500338 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`nc zzo38computer.org 70 <<< textfile/stupid/computers/sound | tail -n5 < 1562110603 128432 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nc: not found < 1562110653 336414 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso: that's probably for the best < 1562111256 424978 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think HackEso cannot access arbitrary internet stuff < 1562111296 535192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, if you want to use the parsing with the shell, then you must use a `` or ``` prefix rather than only ` and the command) < 1562111604 911668 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that file was literally the last thing I gophered from your site last night before moving to nntp, and it relates to mouse cursors on another computer, just as shachaf joked. Funny coincidence. < 1562111631 563552 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1562111900 468123 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: thanks for fixing the sqlnetnews timeout issue so promptly, it booted me a few times while I was exploring. < 1562111971 775832 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that HELP refers you to the full RFC 3977, all the details you could possibly require are there :)