2019-06-01: 00:59:18 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:32:31 Arguably, *every* program "just does whatever it wants". 01:32:48 It just so happens that "whatever it wants" is determined by a relatively simple set of rules. 01:33:22 i keep thinking the z in zzo38 stands for zermelo 01:34:06 There are two "z"s and the letters and numbers do not stand for anything. 01:34:25 both of them 01:34:57 Zulu zulu oscar three eight. 01:35:18 So I just learned about "Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option". 01:35:30 (I hope that message didn't send with wonky formatting, because I saw wonky formatting on my end.) 01:35:46 tswett[m]: I think the bold is not properly terminated 01:35:57 Let me try that again. 01:36:21 So I just learned about "Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option". 01:36:29 (There, much better.) 01:36:52 OK 01:37:19 It's actually pretty straightforward to implement the Goldbach option, right? 01:37:41 There's a simple algorithm for determining whether or not a given number is the smallest counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture. 01:37:49 yes, just time-consumiing 01:37:52 to execute 01:37:58 (If the Goldbach Conjecture is valid, then presumably the one that implements only the former option is complete anyways.) 01:38:02 Namely: check whether or not it's a counterexample, and also check whether or not any smaller number is a counterexample. 01:38:18 And, yes, I agree I think you are correct about determining if it is the smallest counterexample 01:38:19 there's a bit of additional complexity because even if you can tell that the program is made entirely out of repeats of a number, it might be ambiguous what that number is 01:38:35 Oh right, interesting. 01:38:38 e.g. is 333333 six repeats of 3, three repeats of 33, two repeats of 333, or one repeat of 333333? 01:38:44 Right. 01:38:50 What's the encoding of the counterexample? 01:39:04 Looking at the reference implementation, there's nothing delineating the title from the rest of the text. 01:39:08 Yes, unless it needs to be delimited somehow 01:39:09 the title doesn't say, but big-endian decimal encoded as ASCII is a reasonable guess 01:39:26 Maybe it's in unary, encoded with zeros. 01:39:36 Or even in unary, encoded with the title of the programming language. 01:39:43 ais523: Yes, that is what I thought too 01:40:05 shachaf: that would be ambiguous 01:40:16 Non-title text is a comment in the reference implementation. 01:40:34 So 333333 could also be 33333 followed by a 3, if 33333 was the smallest counterexample. 01:41:08 hi schachaf. wondering, earlier were you saying only one symbol is needed in the slashes esolang, or, one symbol is all that is needed generally for Turing completeness in some given system, 01:41:29 or did i misunderstand entirely lol 01:41:31 perhaps we have to find the largest number in the program and search for Goldbach counterexamples up to that number? 01:41:31 please address me by my full and proper name, schachachf 01:41:35 shachaf: Ooh, good point. That makes it trickier. 01:41:44 uhh apologies schachachf 01:41:58 Well, in order to do anything Turing-complete-y in ///, you need / and \, and you don't need anything else. 01:42:26 I don't know how slashes works, so I probably wasn't commenting on it. 01:42:51 `unidecode /⁄∕ 01:42:51 [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+2044 FRACTION SLASH] [U+2215 DIVISION SLASH] 01:42:53 oh ok 01:43:16 `unidecode ⧸🙼 01:43:17 [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] 01:43:22 Another variant for Unary would be that the data doesn't matter only the file size is important. And then, you can use sparse files and don't waste disk space. 01:43:31 yeah there's unary programming languages but the binary ones while still being turing tarpits sometimes, seem to work just a liiitle more efficiently still 01:43:33 it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points 01:43:38 (If you are using a file system that supports sparse files.) 01:43:56 zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lenguage 01:44:09 > ransomNote "very heavy solidus" 01:44:12 𝖁𝐞🅁𝑦 𝗁𝘌🄰𝚟Y 𝘚O𝓵ｉ𝗱𝒖𝖘 01:44:15 although oddly, the Lenguage interpreter does in fact attempt to read the whole file into memory even though it doesn't care about the length 01:44:26 *even though it only cares about the length 01:44:36 shachaf: Yes, and the way they are put together is also messy 01:44:36 > ransomNote "if you want to see your code points again..." 01:44:39 𝕚𝗳 𝓨𝓞𝒖 Ⓦ𝐚𝕹𝑡 𝑇𝙊 𝐬𝓮🅴 𝙔𝓞𝐔𝗥 𝙘𝙊𝘋𝕰 Ⓟ𝔬𝕚𝑵𝗍𝘴 🄰𝕲𝗮ℑ🄽... 01:45:03 sparse files hmm interesting 01:45:15 > cycle "la " 01:45:18 "la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la ... 01:45:36 > ransomNote (cycle "again and ") 01:45:44 mueval: ExitFailure 1 01:45:50 Boo. 01:46:05 > ransomNote (take 200 (cycle "again and ")) 01:46:08 🅰⒢Ⓐ𝖎𝑵 𝖺𝐧⒟ 🅰𝓰𝖠i𝘯 🅐𝓝Ⓓ 𝓐g𝙖𝘐ｎ 𝔞𝐧D 𝘢𝒈𝖠𝖎𝑛 𝚊𝓝𝖉 𝓐𝐺𝘼𝚒𝑁 𝐴⒩𝔡 𝘈𝓖𝖆𝔦𝙣 𝑎𝗻𝔡 𝘢𝙂 01:46:08 𝘈𝑰ℕ 𝙰⒩𝕯 𝐴𝙂🅰𝙄𝐧 ... 01:46:09 > ransomNote . take 1000 . cycle $ "again and " 01:46:12 🅐𝐺𝘈Ｉ🄽 𝗮𝓝𝘿 𝕬🄶𝙖Ｉ𝒏 ａ𝚗Ｄ 𝒂𝔤𝖠𝕚𝑛 𝚊𝗻𝑫 𝓐𝙂🅰𝗶𝔑 𝙖𝘯d 𝗮𝙂𝐚𝙄𝖓 𝓪🅝𝘥 𝕬𝓖𝔞𝒊𝐧 𝑨𝖭𝕕 01:46:12 ⒜𝕘𝕬𝙄🄽 𝘢𝗇𝙳 𝔸𝘎🄐𝐢N ... 01:46:27 As y'all can see, I haven't matured any in the past 13 years. :D 01:47:02 with my 2TB hard drive, i can hold a whopping 3 byte unary program for free, nice 01:47:37 There are probably file systems that support larger files than will fit on the disk with some copy-on-write trickery. 01:47:51 xylochoron[m]: You will still need a directory entry though, isn't it? 01:47:53 They might still be limited to 2^64 or 2^128 bytes. 01:49:32 2^64, now we're talking exabytes 01:49:33 > ransomNote "ransomNote" 01:49:35 🆁𝕒𝑛𝕾𝘰𝙢N𝓸𝑻𝔢 01:49:38 (Although three bytes long isn't a valid Unary program anyways, I think; it needs to be at least eight, isn't it?) 01:49:53 So I'm trying to do "bottomless category theory". 01:50:00 I'm doing category theory without admitting any foundational axioms. 01:50:41 Don't you need the definition of a category at least? 01:51:07 wait wat 01:51:08 "Every set has a power set"? Nah. "Given two sets, there exists a set containing both of them"? Nope. "There exists at least one set"? Hell no. 01:51:28 Yes, you do. And I did, in fact, write down the definition of a category. 01:51:52 But I'm simply treating the definition of a category as a string of symbols in a particular language, rather than assuming that it actually defines anything. 01:51:58 What do sets have to do with categories? 01:52:32 My understanding is that some category theorists consider a foundational set theory to be useful. 01:52:53 But most interesting categories aren't small anyway. 01:53:17 That's true. 01:53:21 If people are being formal don't they usually define categories as a first-order theory? 01:53:32 isnt all coding and proofs "strings containing symbols of a particular language" in the end or smthng 01:53:40 I have no idea, actually. 01:53:42 @quote SaulGorn 01:53:42 SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless. 01:54:27 Even if it isn't small, it must be small enough to fit in whatever it is fitting in 01:54:34 define meaning :-P 01:54:34 xylochoron: Yup, absolutely. The "conventional" way to do formal mathematics is to take a collection of axioms and discover proofs which follow from those axioms. 01:54:50 I'm not doing that. 01:54:58 If you want to be precise, I'm studying... what are they called. 01:55:11 Presentations of categories with finite limits. 01:55:33 How can do you do with the definition of a category if it does not define anything? 01:55:40 oh i just realized that's a quote bot who said that 01:55:55 probably this Saul Gorn guy has tried to define meaning or something :-P 01:56:13 zzo38: Well, I guess I'm planning to figure that out as I go along. :D 01:56:52 OK 01:58:28 do you other people know enough about category theory to follow what this person's trying to do cuz i don't but it sounds interesting oh well 01:59:22 I think this person[m] is just doing things the regular way or something. 01:59:59 Sounds like some kind of first-order theory. 02:00:03 k 02:00:34 > ransomNote "zalgo" 02:00:36 𝘻𝑨𝖫ｇ𝐨 02:00:41 `zalgo pooches 02:00:41 p͎͒oͭ̊o͑̊ċ͜h̑͡e̗͟s̔͊ 02:00:49 `zalgo 𝘻𝑨𝖫ｇ𝐨 02:00:50 𝘻̛̓𝑨̼̏𝖫̑҉ｇͤ͞𝐨̡́ 02:13:06 I oughta finish writing up Al dente. 02:24:14 Apparently I capitalized it. Al Dente. 02:24:24 Also I see that somebody's written some more Al Dente code. That's cool. :D 02:24:24 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Al_Dente_examples 02:24:34 I'm trying to figure out how their "copier" class works. 02:29:36 Let's see. Every Copier has another Copier as a tail, thus producing an infinite chain of Copiers. A Copier has a "copy" event. It also has two Numbers, "in" and "out". The numbers of the tail have to be the tails of the numbers. 02:29:58 If "copy" is false, then it must also be false in the entire chain of copiers, but there are no other constraints. 02:31:39 But if "copy" is true, then "in" and "out" must be the same number. 02:34:34 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 02:37:41 Okay, I gotta say. 02:37:55 You know how in most programming languages, you write code that causes stuff to happen? 02:38:10 I love how in Al Dente, you can't do that; you can only write code that *prevents* stuff from happening. 02:41:16 ...I just noticed that an implementation of Al Dente is not required to do anything. 02:43:20 -!- ineiros has joined. 02:48:58 That's pretty great, actually. 03:04:11 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:10:14 An optional extension could be a "main" command, that for example you could write "main Add(in1 in2 -> out);" 03:11:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:31:21 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:39:21 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 03:44:10 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 03:47:48 -!- MDude has joined. 04:10:03 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:24:09 Some keyword abilities in Magic: the Gathering they only use on some types of cards, and sometimes only in some circumstances. But I think there is other uses for them too. Such as, you could add retrace on any castable card, lifelink or infect on any card that can deal damage, graft and modular and persist and undying on any permanent card (even a Aura), dash on noncreatures, etc 04:27:25 Huh, I thought there was an instant or sorcery with lifelink, but I guess not. 04:27:38 I don't know; I haven't checked 04:29:02 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:29:24 zzo38: Why do you say SIMD is not needed on MMIX? 04:29:26 I have a paper I made up some cards that have only keyword abilities, some of which are creatures and some aren't. One noncreature artifact has "graft 1", "undying", and "echo {0}". 04:29:41 shachaf: I do not remember. 04:29:59 (I think I wrote that message, but I am not sure. I also do not remember.) 04:34:05 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:34:42 -!- lynn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:35:03 -!- xvnvx- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:40:23 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:46:25 Another extension for Al Dente could be comments and macros (supporting parameterized classes, traits, and others); it can be compiled into the version without comments and macros. 04:52:23 -!- lynn has joined. 04:55:38 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 05:34:14 -!- xvnvx has joined. 05:44:41 Another thing about Magic: the Gathering I thought about overload ability. I would prefer to use a different way based on the AST rather than the words. For example, [:damage 3; :to [:target :damageable]] would be written in English as "~ deals 3 damage to any target", but "any each" is wrong, but overload should still work. Also considering for example "change the target of target spell". 05:45:29 (I didn't mention ":from :this" but it is implied, presumably.) 06:21:22 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 07:01:42 -!- whtspc has joined. 07:01:59 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 07:07:02 Hmm, "any target" is a pretty new phrasing, I wonder if the rules people actually encountered that issue 07:08:24 I guess "~ deals three damage to target player, planeswalker, or creature" works? 07:11:07 "any target" includes yourself, and until Modern Horizons they've avoided overloads with downsides 07:21:06 Yes, although I don't really like "any target" (for a few reasons), so I invented "damageable"; "any target" is the same as "target damageable" (although you can also use "damageable" in other contexts too). 07:22:38 (And even without "any target", there is the other issue I mentioned.) 07:27:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:49:55 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:50:30 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:49 -!- hakatashi has joined. 07:53:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:56:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:18:55 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:22:44 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:47:26 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 08:50:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:52:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:14:51 So I finally have a paper proof, with some help by a computer: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sdd.pdf It really doesn't look all that hard now. 09:15:10 (this is for the self-dual characterization of a distributive lattice) 09:17:03 Not speaking of which, I have no feel for what exponentials mean in a lattice. 09:17:13 I'm pretty sure I should know. Is the answer obvious? 09:18:02 exponentials? 09:18:36 I mean in the category sense. 09:18:55 ah. <-- stops caring 09:19:14 OK, I'll stop calling it exponential because it has a different name in order theory. 09:19:27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Heyting_algebra calls it "implication". 09:20:38 Or maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyting_algebra 09:20:54 "equipped with a binary operation a → b of implication such that c ∧ a ≤ b is equivalent to c ≤ a → b" 09:23:37 that infinite distributive law is something that I can get behind 09:25:28 It's a good law. 09:25:45 I'm more used to frames, which are like complete Heyting algebras except frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication. 09:26:04 myname: see the above link (in answer to your "why" question yesterday) 09:26:28 myname: (my link, not shachaf's) 09:31:29 Hm, every modular lattice is distributive, and every distributive lattice is modular? 09:31:31 Scott continuity is something I should understand (and at least I can see that unfolding the definition gets me that infinite distributive law from the finite one, modulo some twiddling to obtain a minimal directed set from S) 09:31:40 Oh, no. 09:31:53 no, moldularity is weaker than distributivity 09:31:55 Distributivity is stronger. 09:31:57 Right. 09:32:09 optimist! 09:32:33 That's only optimism if you assume that the lattice is your friend rather than your enemy. 09:32:56 . o O ( when you have modularity (huh, I had that extra 'l' again in there... but this time I noticed), the distributivity glass is still half empty. ) 09:33:22 Hmm. Is a half-empty glass of poison better than a half-full one? 09:33:40 (It may depend on who drank that half...) 09:34:02 Man, the free complete lattice on three elements is too large to be a set. 09:34:03 What a joke. 09:34:51 completeness is just too strong unless things collapse (as they do for real numbers)... I was surprised at first, but I think that fact is fairly intuitive after all. 09:35:51 I guess I'll stick to free complete semilattices, which by coincidence are also complete lattices. 09:36:16 I mean "intuitive" in a weak sense. It "makes sense", but I can fit a whole proof into my head. 09:36:37 *can't* 09:37:16 Because that would entail actually proving the lack of collapse I alluded to. 09:37:25 So this duality property of yours doesn't hold for every distributive lattice, right? 09:38:04 Hmm? That (1) holds in any distributive lattice as I showed on here the other day. 09:38:10 (two days ago now, I believe) 09:38:36 Oh, right, and that one is actually very simple. 09:38:45 So I'm just saying all sorts of silly things today. 09:38:52 But I struggled a lot with the converse. 09:39:22 And in the end I reconstructed a computer's proof, simplifying it along the way. 09:41:55 I *believe* that somebody who has a bit of experience with / intuition for modular lattices would recognize the fact that x \/ ((y \/ z) /\ (x \/ y) /\ (x \/ z)) has the x-s all in the right places for applying modularity and simplifying it down to (x \/ y) /\ (x \/ z). But I've never studied modular lattices. 09:42:39 -!- b_jonas has joined. 09:43:51 You can run any sorting network in a lattice instead of total order, right? Do you get anything interesting? 09:44:42 hmm, let me ponder that for 10 minutes 09:49:49 First of all, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkhoff%27s_representation_theorem so you get something well-defined for distributive lattices (and a nice justification of the 0-1 principle for sorting networks: a sorting network is correct if it sorts all possible input sequences consisting only of 0s and 1s correctly). So what I would like to do is to see that distributivity follows from... 09:49:55 ...(1 2) (2 3) (1 2) and (2 3) (1 2) (2 3) giving the same results. 09:54:08 that may be false though... 09:56:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:57:21 In fact this property may be something between lattices and modular lattices. (The property in question is (x /\ y) \/ (z /\ (x \/ y)) = (x \/ y) /\ (z \/ (x /\ y))) 09:58:32 Of course there are bigger sorting networks to consider as well. 09:59:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:02:13 wait a second, I messed this up; I should swap x and z on the right. 10:03:41 And then distributivity follows (don't ask me how, the computer says so). Yay. 10:05:29 Dsitributivity follows from those two networks being equal? 10:07:11 Ah I was too fast there, once again... 10:07:53 I had snuck a modularity axiom in there. 10:08:52 So... in a *modular* lattice, equivalence of those two sorting networks implies distributivity. But it looks like the same isn't true for non-modular lattices (no proof, just lack of a proof that's easy for the computer.) 10:11:23 Oh. No, it was all true anyway. 10:12:44 I'm suspecting that it's true because the middle term ends up computing the median the two different ways that you were proving things about, more or less. 10:13:08 I mean the middle element of the list. 10:13:35 Uh, maybe not. 10:14:17 yeah, that was my intuition. but it's only "more or less" since the sides differ from the self-dual one by an application distributivity each. 10:14:31 *of distributivity 10:14:37 So the first network gives you (a∧b) ∨ ((a∨b)∧c) 10:14:48 And the second network gives you (b∨c) ∧ ((b∧c)∨a) 10:15:09 ...Which is what you just said. 10:18:02 I wonder whether there's a fancy sorting network variant that'll give you [a∧b∧c, ???, ab∨c] 10:18:16 I mean [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c] 10:18:23 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 10:18:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:19:39 The benefit is that the depth for the first and last elements is only 2 so you get it one step earlier. 10:20:01 But I think you have to do more comparisons overall. 10:20:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:20:52 http://paste.debian.net/1085364/ is what I did and why I don't know how the proof goes. 10:21:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:21:49 shachaf: well (x /\ y) /\ (x \/ y) /\ z simplifies to x /\ y /\ z in any lattice. 10:22:20 Sure. 10:24:54 No I don't think you can get [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c] directly. You can satisfy one end using (1 3) (1 2) (2 3) (and its dual). 10:27:38 I guess the constraint here is that you only have three slots to store items in. 10:31:18 Yeah maybe 3 is an exception... So, it works for n=2. (1 2) (3 4) (2 4) (1 3) (2 3) does it for n = 4... 10:31:51 Well, I'd prefer to have optimal depth for every slot, or something. 10:32:45 well, then you want a minimum depth sorting network? 10:33:14 Maybe with something that's well approximated by minimum size as a secondary optimization criterion. 10:33:26 "minimum depth" is about the time to complete the entire network. 10:33:41 But for a 3-item network the depth of the min and max is only 2, and the depth of the median is 3. 10:34:09 *actually* there may be an odd/even phenomenon for the generalized [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c] question... Hmm. 10:34:10 Anyway I'm not sure I actually care that much about this, I was just curious. 10:34:21 What's the generalized question? 10:35:02 whether we can simultaneously have the infimum and the supremum of all inputs as the top and bottom results of the sorting network. 10:35:03 In my file I'm writing & for ∧ and | for ∨. Maybe I'll use this notation from now on. 10:35:20 I guess it's ambiguous because people usually mean a different lattice by those operators. 10:37:05 I have this start: 10:37:06 : a b c d e 10:37:06 : a&b a|b c d&e d|e 10:37:30 and it occured to me that whatever I use for c next will inevitably lead to terms mixing | and &. 10:37:40 Right. 10:38:06 What if you had some extra space? 10:38:27 well, for even numbers of inputs I can combine the inputs in pairs 10:38:30 I imagine a constant number of slots doesn't help beyond a constant number of outputs. 10:38:53 and then work on the resulting _ & _ and _ | _ terms separately, leading to the infimum and supremum. 10:39:37 I see what you mean. 10:39:55 So, generally: do (1 2) (3 4) ... (2n-1 2n), followed by (1 3) (1 5) ... (1 2n-1) and the reflected version thereof. 10:40:12 But you can't keep them separated for very long. 10:40:41 long enough to make the ends meet and join. 10:40:59 Sure, but I care about the all the elements, not just the ends. 10:41:17 The depth of the first and last element is always n. 10:41:26 What's the depth of the second element? 10:42:22 hmm? no 10:42:34 Er, no, not n 10:42:36 log n 10:42:42 You can arrange the computation in a tree. So yeah, log n. 10:42:58 We can assume power of 2 networks, I guess. 10:43:05 So it's exactly log n. 10:45:23 Batcher's sort gives an upper bound of log(n)^2/2 on the depth, I think. 10:45:41 (+ O(log(n))...) 10:47:03 "It is also possible, in theory, to construct networks of logarithmic depth for arbitrary size, using a construction called the AKS network" 10:47:31 TIL: There's another AKS result of little practical importance. 10:48:23 These are not the same AKS, though. 10:48:45 (The polynomial time primality test is newer, but I heard about it when it was discovered.) 10:49:54 Anyway, I really think that existing research on minimum (and small) depth sorting networks largely covers your question. 10:50:05 Probably. 10:50:40 I finally read the thing about deterministic O(n) median calculation the other day. 10:50:51 That seems to be another algorithm of little practical importance. 10:51:09 But it's surprising that it works. 10:51:42 The median of medians thing... yeah, amazing. It's instructive, too. 10:52:13 What's the instruction? 10:52:41 Hmm, doesn't Knuth also invesitage networks for extracting k-th elements? 10:53:41 Does he? I never read TAOCP (as you can probably tell). 10:53:53 What's instructive is the clever use of transitivity. Oh and the fact that just because something doesn't work for n=3, it might still work for n=5 ;) 10:54:46 That's an obvious prank from the universe. 10:54:57 We already know that numbers greater than 2 don't really exist. 10:55:12 Now we're expected to believe in 5? 10:55:15 "selection network" is the keyword. (bad google term, but it's okay if you add "sorting") 10:56:08 "There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." 10:57:27 I'm still curious about what a sorting network means in a lattice. 10:58:00 I remember we talked about how you can sort computable reals since you only require the result to be extensionally a permutation of the input, not intensionally. 11:00:30 shachaf: Birkhoff's theorem (mentioned above) is the only handle I have on this. 11:01:10 basic intuition: decompose the (distributive) lattice into a cartesian product of totally ordered sets. sort component-wise. 11:01:11 "any spherically symmetric solution of the vacuum field equations must be static and asymptotically flat" 11:01:15 makes sense tdh 11:02:26 I think I see what you mean, though. 11:02:26 With Birkhoffs theorem you get that, except that you may also be carving out a subset that is closed under infimum and supremum. 11:03:50 (and in particular it reduces anything to totally ordered sets of size 2, because you can carve out any chain from its powerset using ideals) 11:04:51 for example, 1 <= 2 <= ... <= n can be mapped to {1}, {1,2}, ..., {1,..,n} ordered by the subset relation. 11:07:27 to be precise, s/ideal/filter/ 11:07:56 nah 11:08:29 Sorry, ideal is actually correct. (But at least now I also remember the dual term.) 11:10:17 `leаrn schachaf is short for schachachf 11:10:18 /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: leаrn: not found 11:11:16 `" 11:11:16 640) monqy: it's only... ascii porn... the unicode bits stay covered \ 1100) "Well, that was fun" -- Taneb "atriq" Ngevd 11:11:55 > ransomNote "learn" 11:11:57 𝘭𝑬𝖠ｒ𝐧 11:12:07 `𝘭𝑬𝖠ｒ𝐧 schachaf 11:12:52 `? star 11:12:53 star? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 11:13:00 `? * 11:13:01 Twinkle, twinkle, little star! 11:13:15 (having trouble remembering my own entries) 11:14:33 `? int-e 11:14:34 int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. 11:15:12 `learn_append int-e He could never remember his own entries so he put them here for convenience. 11:15:15 `5 bin/star* 5 11:15:17 1/1:Cassian Andor \ Jan Dodonna \ Jyn Erso \ BB-9E \ Oola \ Bodhi Rook \ BB-8 \ Darth Maul \ Darth Vader \ Ortugg \ Supreme Leader Snoke \ Doctor Cornelius Evazan \ Rose Tico \ BB-8 \ Jyn Erso \ BB-8 \ Salacious Crumb \ R2-D2 \ Conan Antonio Motti \ Captain Phasma \ Nien Nunb \ Doctor Cornelius Evazan \ General Armitage Hux \ Captain Panaka \ Poe Dameron 11:15:33 `` grep '' bin/star* 11:15:33 #!/usr/bin/perl \ @c=split/\|/,"Admiral Crix Madine|Admiral Firmus Piett|Anakin Skywalker|BB-8|BB-9E|Bail Organa|Baze Malbus|Beru Lars|Bib Fortuna|Biggs Darklighter|Boba Fett|Bodhi Rook|Boss Nass|C-3PO|Captain Panaka|Captain Phasma|Cassian Andor|Chancellor Valorum|Chewbacca|Chief Jawa|Chirrut \x{ce}mwe|Cliegg Lars|Conan Antonio Motti|DJ|Darth Bane|Darth Maul|Darth Plagueis|Darth Vader|Doctor Cornelius Evazan|Count Dooku|Emperor Palpatine|Finn|Galen Erso 11:15:41 yikes 11:15:46 `` echo bin/star* 11:15:47 bin/starwars 11:16:03 I forgot about that. 11:16:10 `? BB-8 11:16:12 BB-8? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 11:16:25 My trick of using `grep ''` to print files preceded by file name doesn't work when only given one file. 11:16:35 oh. 11:16:38 admittedly my trick is bad. but so is unix tdnh 11:16:46 `` echo bin/star* 11:16:47 bin/starwars 11:17:02 `starwars 11:17:03 Luke Skywalker 11:19:44 So quickselect has to mutate the input it's given, right? 11:20:28 Is there a bound on how much space median selection needs if it can't mutate the input? 11:20:34 I'm going to sleep. 11:33:55 " I love how in Al Dente, you can't do that; you can only write code that *prevents* stuff from happening." => try https://esolangs.org/wiki/90 11:38:56 shachaf: you may be thinking of Soulfire Grand Master, Firesong and Sunspeaker, or Puncture Blast 11:41:32 `? lettuce 11:41:33 Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet. 11:41:34 `? lattuce 11:41:35 lattuce? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 11:41:35 `? lattice 11:41:36 Lattices are healthy ingredients that join your sandwiches together. 11:46:34 "read the thing about deterministic O(n) median calculation" => which thing? the Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, Stein book? 11:48:25 Hmm do you need a particular source for that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_of_medians 11:49:31 And I thought Knuth has it as well (TAoCP)... 11:49:50 shachaf: you can use grep -h for that 11:50:06 or tail -v 11:52:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:56:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:35:22 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:44:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:58:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:11:20 ski: eww I want to unsee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densely_packed_decimal 14:11:34 (prompted by your comment on #haskell) 14:13:03 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:16:36 ohh, never seen 14:21:02 -!- int-exile has joined. 14:21:53 -!- int-exile has changed nick to int-e_. 14:23:52 -!- int-e has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:24:15 oh right, the logs are down too... 14:25:24 int-e: the tunes logs work 14:25:32 ski: anyway, that page is linked from the IEEE 754 page (IEEE 754 does specify decimal floating point numbers; the main point(sic!) isn't that the representation should be decimal, but that the mantissa/exponent are decimal. The FPU might use any representation it likes. 14:25:56 * ski was just about to say what b_jonas said 14:26:29 FSV of "work"... can't display in browser... 14:26:54 works here 14:27:27 you mean that the exponent is wrt base `10' ? 14:27:28 despite the "Open in Browser" plugin?! how does that fail... 14:27:55 ski: meaning the number is multiplied by 10^[decoded e] 14:28:01 rather than 2^[decoded e] 14:28:14 right 14:28:33 ("Open in Browser" plugin ?) 14:28:42 -!- int-e has joined. 14:29:19

rather than 2^[decoded e] right ("Open in Browser" plugin ?) 14:29:35 I'm still here ;-) 14:29:43 I don't trust the VPS just yet. 14:30:08 oh, i'm seeing double, then 14:30:59 -!- int-e__ has joined. 14:31:45 now it's getting weird. 14:32:23 -!- int-e has quit (Client Quit). 14:34:29 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:34:36 -!- int-e__ has quit (Client Quit). 14:34:43 -!- int-e has joined. 14:36:55 Okay, that was stupid. I thought the VPS had a reboot, but it just had a network hickup and my old screen session was still around. Hopefully back for good... 14:36:56 -!- int-e_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:38:15 * ski screens the sessions 14:38:54 good idea. 14:41:47 @botsnack 14:41:47 :) 14:41:55 (different VPS ;-) ) 14:46:03 different ? 14:47:01 lambdabot's on a VPS. My IRC client is on a VPS. These two VPSs are not the same. 14:47:45 ah, ic 15:06:20 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:08:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:11:45 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:17:20 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:44:43 -!- unlimiter has joined. 15:53:45 ski: re: Open in Browser: It's this plugin, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/open-in-browser/ which is supposed to allow me to override what FF does with a link... one of the options being "open in browser as text". But it doesn't work in this case. 15:54:23 and that's despite the server properly declaring it as Content-Type: text/plain :-/ 15:54:58 * int-e blames software complexity. 15:56:02 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 15:57:15 (disabling the addon (that's what FF calls it) doesn't help either) 15:58:09 Everything sucks. Chrome is breaking Ad blockers, FF is breaking simpler things like X11 selections. 16:00:10 oic. used W3m here 16:00:55 -!- atehwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:17 hello 16:34:27 -!- adu has joined. 16:43:20 hail rain1 16:43:41 (I'm sure that was *very* original) 16:44:14 `grwp precipation 16:44:15 No output. 16:44:28 `quote precipation 16:44:29 No output. 16:44:41 `quote weather 16:44:41 889) Usually I'd use Rankine, but the fucking weather doesn't support it. 16:45:43 `complain Nobody's talking about the weather here, despite metasepia's best efforts! 16:45:45 Complaint filed. Thank you. 16:45:50 int-e: I don't really understand what Firefox does with it. I assumed the server was just sending the wrong Content-Type or Content-Disposition for the logs, but that's not the case 16:46:00 anyway, you can still download the logs, or view in another browser 16:46:18 I know but it's inconvenient. 16:46:44 (I'm a potted plant. FEED ME!) 16:47:07 I was wondering if it depended on whether it's valid utf-8 or something, but that doesn't seem to be the problem either 16:47:25 Try prefixing "view-source:" to the URL 16:50:52 `? ot 16:50:53 ot? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 16:51:20 maybe it doesn't like LF instead of CRLF or something 16:51:49 like, firefox assumes that text/plains files should have crlf in them, which is what they often have when webserverers serve them 16:52:16 If prefixing "view-source:" doesn't work, try using curl and less, perhaps 16:52:50 no, that's not it either 16:53:00 I don't know then 16:54:44 b_jonas: it somehow falls back on guessing the file type from the extension. which is quite stupid... 16:57:08