< 1561162045 232975 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :conversion ? < 1561162264 97572 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1561162340 877791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Presumably this is what the ! operator I mentioned the other day does. < 1561162475 854431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought though it could be done automatically so you do not need a operator for that, in this case. < 1561162523 774728 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be a good idea but I'm reluctant to have automatic "casting" between types that happen to have fields with the same name. I don't know. < 1561162580 632380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing: An "overloaded" function is one that dispatches at compiletime based on the struct literal it gets. < 1561162609 646988 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you are correct, but still I think in the case described like f(g(x)) the type is presumably already correct at the source language level, but a conversion may be needed when compiling it into a LLVM code or native code or however it is done < 1561162611 399895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing: The same literals can perhaps be used for matching as well as construction. < 1561162641 612134 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, for code generation you can just do whatever. < 1561162759 786754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure how sum types should work (if they exist at all -- should they?). There are a few ways to do it. < 1561163652 379979 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program language are you trying to make? < 1561163691 599911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know yet. < 1561164404 225618 :limbo__!ar@45.63.9.236 NICK :limbo_ > 1561165429 738765 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iota14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63600&oldid=63599 5* 03A 5* (+53) 10 > 1561165461 830910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iota14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63601&oldid=63600 5* 03A 5* (+21) 10/* External resources */ < 1561167641 309874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so... MD5 differential paths are tricky < 1561168135 46791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: One element is this: For unsigned 32 bit integers d, x, y, if you know d = x - y but neither x nor y, what possible values can (x <<< s) - (y <<< s) have, where <<< is bit rotation and 0 < s < 32 is fixed? < 1561169365 88234 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like not very many? < 1561169409 149608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's (x <<< s) + ((x + ~d) <<< s) + 1, I guess? < 1561169742 279866 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x <<< s) + ((~x + d) <<< s) + 1 ? < 1561169749 1826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not sure how that helps < 1561169775 360962 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And no, there aren't that many possible values.) < 1561169807 275993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, yes, that one. < 1561169935 170411 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1561170093 590741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are up to four different values: http://paste.debian.net/1088823/ < 1561170190 849121 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1561170387 380628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems convincing. < 1561171866 948579 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a command in Linux (or in vim) to sort blocks separated by blank lines by the first line of the block? < 1561172160 908366 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1561172215 559477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1561173599 911892 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1561173602 592177 :Guest5238!~liz@meowface.org QUIT :Changing host < 1561173602 592231 :Guest5238!~liz@unaffiliated/lizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1561173604 313384 :Guest5238!~liz@unaffiliated/lizzie NICK :lizzie < 1561174008 270632 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:b19f:cbc6:57bc:e7b8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561174100 214146 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a way to do it: first using s/^$/^@/ (the ^@ must be an actual null character, not the two symbols ^@) and then sort -fz and then s/^@// to get rid of the null characters. < 1561174160 434227 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1561175542 278035 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lpalmcerfetxsxjf QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1561175798 730433 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyskyrehqydqhwdu JOIN :#esoteric < 1561175868 702680 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1561176383 627879 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyskyrehqydqhwdu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1561176484 237168 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-syaplprucgdcuein JOIN :#esoteric < 1561177372 121827 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1561179005 603427 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ktisqbzmajjjwdgv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1561179085 966580 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand that convert code better. The magnetic vector is somehow tilted alongside the headset, and the rotations effectively show the real direction of the vector < 1561179110 506870 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know what the vector is supposed to mean, though? Direction the headset is pointed except tilted? < 1561179120 856729 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*relative to the pitch&roll? < 1561179550 290294 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561179806 841083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? Who? < 1561179815 130291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the idea of "register forwarding format" in a format like SSA with basic blocks? That is an alternative to using phi nodes. < 1561179869 589259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this idea? < 1561179875 58300 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's what I think it is, then yes < 1561179881 629234 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I started making a SSA backend using that format < 1561180032 172993 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/4c58d69fa4375e4f2f3592e1f9c6eb0e < 1561180049 149613 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should sleepp < 1561180288 764689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the form of SSA described in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15411-f13/lectures/06-ssa.pdf < 1561180293 769544 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is it the one where basic blocks are like functions that you tail-call? < 1561180294 737145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/ssafun.pdf < 1561180304 641810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also by kmc just now. < 1561180321 853098 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that is a much more elegant way to represent SSA than phi nodes < 1561180389 216838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1561180396 198439 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1561180414 354065 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm having a good day, I hope you are having a good day too < 1561180417 618263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy solstice < 1561180559 953925 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1561180827 115076 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1561180923 272612 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561181710 784525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, it is like that < 1561181864 709259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :good days are tg < 1561182345 718176 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In northern hemisphere this will be summer solstice. Did you figure out what time of day? I tried with Swiss Ephemeris it seem to be at approximately 15:54 UTC < 1561182357 343670 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also call summer solstice as "Litha" < 1561186864 7622 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm, i've seen that "`goto's with parameters to parameterized basic blocks" idea in Andrew W. Appel's book "Modern Compiler Implementation in (ML|Java|C)" in 1998 at ) < 1561187040 347122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the same kind of thing as the Appel paper I linked? < 1561187382 608713 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( "Compiling without continuations" by Luke Maurer,Paul Downen,Zena M. Ariola,Simon Peyton Jones in 2016-11-17 at ) < 1561187437 293387 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cf. title of book "Compiling with Continuations" by Andrew W. Appel in 1992 at ) < 1561187456 191759 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :lime[_] < 1561187536 528992 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( "The anatomy of a loop: A story of scope and control" by Olin Shivers in 2005-09 at , ) < 1561187542 567124 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf : yes < 1561187694 839533 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1561187952 570271 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thinking of the "Binders (control-)Dominate (uses /) References" scope idea) < 1561188292 162931 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1561189884 208094 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1561193960 243052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what if there's a custom structure for the argument suite of each function you define, but the only way to construct an instance of such a struct is implicitly from the arguments when you call that function, and the only way to deconstruct it is when the function matches it to its formal parameter list < 1561195927 65853 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1561196084 739179 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and similarly for the results of a function ? < 1561196270 640951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, functions have just one result < 1561196275 32501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus side effects < 1561196446 173131 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why just one result ? < 1561196549 955092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can write proper tree-shaped expressions, with function calls where you want a value < 1561196572 867886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having to assign each return value to a temporary variable like you do in prolog < 1561196914 452052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want two results, then make the function save the second one through a writable reference where the caller allocates space, so you can still use the first result in an expression. that makes the code more readable. < 1561196930 878070 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that that's a good design is proven by time (sorry, bad joke) < 1561196978 2345 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :time has two results, so you pass a pointer to it for where it should save the second result < 1561196988 259035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can still call time in an expression and use the first result rightaway < 1561198378 360976 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure an out-parameter of a function makes code more readable < 1561198452 254706 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure i see why wanting to allow nested trees, for single (unnamed) result, should preclude also allow multiple results < 1561198472 845270 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm .. perhaps one should allow an expression to bind variables < 1561199680 253267 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1561199747 512191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know the problem with passing the output address as an argument is that (unless you're ais523 with his fancy linear type systems) you can't prove with the type system that the function will assign to that address, < 1561199764 706803 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sometimes you want a struct return value instead if you really want to be sure that the output is valid < 1561202909 857816 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think something like Mercury's instantiation checking system could be used < 1561202978 119429 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i suppose i was more thinking about symmetry, and about ergonomics, though) < 1561203208 996853 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Mercury? < 1561203498 601540 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :a logic programming language, with a modern static type system, similar to the MLs or Haskell, and with a static mode, instantiation and determinism checker < 1561203596 767198 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it keeps track of which parts of data structures are instantiated (you may think "initialized"), has support for input and output parameters of "procedures" (really predicates, which can be thought of as procedures overloaded on in&out parameter patterns) < 1561203680 830209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: what's the relation to the Oz logic programming language? < 1561203869 269021 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not related, apart from both being LPLs ? < 1561204635 521885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1561205600 830025 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561205610 792513 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1561206463 319230 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1561207202 708638 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561208391 697858 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1561208595 372640 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561208659 982802 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561208663 54385 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-btxptbyvoovqjutb JOIN :#esoteric < 1561212973 136917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, when does the SGDQ of this year start? < 1561212973 430972 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mr president, and that is what we really wanted to help, as well as strengthening the links between the west and who have actually sought to lever out manufacturer responsibility and environmental protection are concerned. < 1561213006 604411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, typical politician, never gives precise dates < 1561213015 29586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just weasel phrases about how much he cares < 1561213784 141000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :real soon now < 1561214444 58766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, how many rarities does the Yu Gi Oh trading card game have? < 1561214444 544529 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mr president, mr graefe zu baringdorf may very well be people who are its victims in eu states as low as they are worded. there are risks, undoubtedly, by the events of recent weeks, but today i am again disappointed with the sluggish and begrudging progress to date in other respects of relevance to safety. but having said that, and with it air pollution. < 1561214556 405863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, M:tG has many different rarities too, it just doesn't give names to most of them. < 1561214608 766182 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are expansions in which all packs have one of a certain set of cards, such as double-sided, < 1561214609 208145 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1561214625 298627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :expansions with extra cards that don't appear in packs, < 1561214668 367527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cards with two or three or four different art variants at the same rarity of the same set, and even that trick with limited Islands < 1561214686 815990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :un-sets also do some crazy stuff < 1561214889 246814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also cards that are available in theme decks only, either not at all from boosters or less easily from boosters, such as Sol Ring reprinted in Commander sets, or Snow Islands reprinted in Coldsnap theme decks < 1561215254 882768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, there are now two permanent cards with {S} in their mana cost. let me check if they remembered to patch the offering rules to account for that. < 1561215285 116563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they did < 1561215310 638098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -E "^117\.7g" share/mtg/rules.txt < 1561215311 430674 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :117.7g If a cost is reduced by an amount of mana represented by one or more snow mana symbols, the cost is reduced by that much generic mana. < 1561215426 119727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION exiles b_jonas to a snow-covered island. < 1561216181 617878 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561216352 957737 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1561217642 446804 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63602 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+2330) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Celsee |paradigms=Imperative |author=[https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FAKE1007 FAKE1007] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=:Category:Queue-based|..." > 1561217882 887066 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63603&oldid=63586 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+13) 10 > 1561218461 646410 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63604&oldid=63602 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (-2) 10 < 1561220277 465872 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1958:a9bc:e4ef:bab4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1561221329 761990 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-55-179.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561222615 15399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single precision floating point number is one that uses the same number of significant digits in the mantissa regardless what the exponent is. < 1561222634 764026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A multiple precision floating point number can trade off space between the mantissa and the exponent. < 1561223106 550516 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-55-179.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1561223132 938916 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1561223208 470299 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-161-140-152.range86-161.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1561223365 914093 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1561223509 447876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: In less common japanese delimiter punctuation characters, I know you already have "・" and "〜" and " ", but can you also add "゠" to your font? < 1561223580 39385 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some sets do not have random packs then I should think, rarity is not applicable. < 1561223884 162454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sort of. the rarity as printed on the cards isn't quite applicable, but in some cases it's still a helpful guide: cards in From the Valut products are printed with all mythic expansion symbol, which makes sense because they're of a low print run; < 1561223908 299196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :extra cards in core set are printed with a common exp symbol, which makes sense becuase they tend to be cheap and in enough supply < 1561224046 746508 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it is not applicable to draft/sealed formats, usually. (If you play a cube, then you can put whatever cards you want, so again rarity is not applicable. If you define your own set to use for a draft/sealed, whether it is with official cards or custom cards or both, then you can define your own rarities, too.) < 1561224093 678602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, in draft/sealed formats you usually get cards from a booster packs < 1561224106 748279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there the rarity symbols are usually appropriate < 1561224109 436746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some stupid exceptions < 1561224257 316565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's a big range of variance within rarities, but in general for typical cards rarities are somewhat indicative < 1561224282 365597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stupid exceptions could be handled better, but having rarities is better than not having the rarity printed on the card like old sets do < 1561224384 317242 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a database should be having another field for the effective rarities from the printed rarities; if it cannot appear in random packs at all then "hidden" rarity is specified, for example. You can then use this data to make up random packs by computer, too, as well as information for strategy for drafts even if you are not playing on the computer. < 1561224602 313616 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1561224626 967759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but that wouldn't be enough. the prices depend on demand too, not just supply, which is why say Black Lotus is more expensive than Mox Emerald even though they were printed in the same numbers originally < 1561224680 580189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not just with such old cards, although obviously newer cards won't be as expensive as those < 1561224707 896554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, cards that are printed only as rares in the same one recent expert expension can vary in value < 1561224718 653196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because one is one that lots of people want, and another is one that few people want < 1561224723 189468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that happens with uncommons too < 1561224752 151007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually it's just a market where you only know the price if you buy the card < 1561224768 39579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe not even then < 1561224858 837425 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, although I am not concerned about prices, but only the distribution in random packs of a specific set. < 1561224988 637444 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4d7f:80d5:318a:6373 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561225018 263045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for old sets, you just have double and triple and quadruple commons and uncommons and rares, those you can mostly guess from the number of different art < 1561225053 785635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in modern sets, when they differ from the usual recipee of uniform probabilities in three rarities, plus mythics replacing the rare sometimes, then it's something tricky that isn't just a card doubled < 1561225064 52575 :Melvar!~melvar@dslc-082-082-054-010.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1561225085 962253 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4d7f:80d5:318a:6373 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1561225087 354599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's crazy stuff like every pack having one double-faced card but in varying rarities, or pairs of cards sometimes distributed together, or even more crazy stuff < 1561225102 25296 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's actually four rarities becuse there's also basic lands which are sometimes replaced by other cards in sets < 1561225111 659872 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I can know what all of that stuff is, then perhaps a format can be done for that. < 1561225327 354709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly I don't know what all that stuff is < 1561225333 449697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, I don't even know how it works in the time spiral block < 1561225347 210683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care too much though, because I just play constructed < 1561225352 789000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pack distributions don't matter much > 1561225353 354385 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63605&oldid=63604 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+188) 10 < 1561225364 984574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that in general, rare cards are more expensive and common cards are more cheap < 1561225384 575780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I said it's not totally uniform, there are bad rares cheaper than good uncommons < 1561225403 269245 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4d7f:80d5:318a:6373 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561225548 280976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a SQL database, one table could be indexed by Multiverse ID, and then references set, card (indexed by name, perhaps), and then specifies printed rarity, effective rarity, and printed text. < 1561225664 16691 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If needed, the table of sets could also include the SQL codes for a random pack; SQLite has no built-in way to execute queries using that, but it is possible to do by the use of virtual tables, or alternatively a view could be used with several parts, and one part is selected by the set table > 1561226237 515715 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63606&oldid=63605 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+273) 10/* Examples */ > 1561226282 781669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63607&oldid=63606 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+54) 10/* Examples */ > 1561226389 617586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63608&oldid=63607 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+2) 10/* 2 numbers kills */ > 1561226444 404407 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63609&oldid=63608 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (-28) 10/* 2 numbers kills */ > 1561226662 538988 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63610&oldid=63609 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+100) 10 < 1561227134 783242 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561228017 746399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome < 1561228018 944842 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1561228020 676496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1561228071 743744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo $IRC_TARGET < 1561228072 371638 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric < 1561228273 561150 :Melvar!~melvar@dslc-082-082-054-010.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561228720 403537 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jdvqgvmfoeyoaobj QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1561228946 934834 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1561229128 387549 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1561229656 161145 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now in this game, we have to protect everyone who is being attacked by their kingdom, including the goblins, elves, kobolds, illithids, dwarves, and also the human priests, too. < 1561230399 543332 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561230399 624706 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1561230399 624760 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1561230418 721646 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe SQLite should have a function sqlite3_str*sqlite3_context_str(sqlite3_context*) which can sometimes be convenient, and might also sometimes make it a bit more efficient if the user function is called on the right of a SQL || operator < 1561230554 348427 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe also a new flag is needed for sqlite3_create_function() so that it can generate the proper VDBE code to deal with sqlite3_context_str().) < 1561230571 767087 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1561230734 967050 :lime[_]!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :uplime < 1561231962 602270 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One idea I have that could be used in a compiler in a programming language is something like "base zero floating numbers" at compile time; it consists of X and Y (both integers, except X must be nonzero), and represents the number X times zero to the power of Y. If used in a context where a integer is expected (including any number used at run time), then it is automatically converted, resulting in a compile error if Y is negative. < 1561232023 84200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what... < 1561232034 705982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the use of that? < 1561232191 197699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example if it has a sizeof operator like C, then if you make sizeof a zero length array, or sizeof a array of elements all having a size of zero, then it it will be able to multiply by zero without forgetting the original numbers. There may be other uses too, maybe. < 1561232266 171280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just want compile-time types, like you can name and manipulate in C++ with templates? < 1561232320 916526 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1561232361 394386 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how that works in C++, but that doesn't seem quite same because then presumably it will not work with ordinary numbers used in compile time calculations. < 1561232613 791348 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1561232640 689882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use ordinary numbers, at least fixed size integers < 1561232729 704859 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then what if you use sizeof, I would expect it would not use your own template then, isn't it? < 1561232745 34927 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof on what? < 1561232758 350984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On anything < 1561232774 742586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof tells how many bytes the compiler would use for an object type < 1561232804 348212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always a compile-time constant, because you can't have types vary in runtime < 1561232810 533846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not the compile-time types < 1561232817 625479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dynamic types can vary, but sizeof doesn't know about that < 1561232832 766016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only knows the type of expressions and variables and such like < 1561232855 839139 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it won't work if you try to divide by zero by compile time, in case the size is zero. < 1561232868 15166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, if you try to divide by zero that's an error < 1561232884 104316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can get the type of an element of an array type at compile time < 1561232896 6485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like sizeof(a[0]) where a is an array < 1561232898 241110 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works in C too < 1561232911 799460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also get the size of a struct member, like sizeof(a.x) and sizeof(a.y) < 1561232920 137066 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't compute those from the size of a < 1561232943 771709 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that doesn't work if the element size or array size are zero (which is possible in GNU C, but I think not in C++) < 1561232984 298734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also do that if you only have a type, not a value of that type, as in what sizeof(*(T *)0) would do if it was allowed < 1561233019 940656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, no types have zero size, and you can't have zero sized built-in arrays < 1561233041 786637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a custom array type that supports arrays of length zero, but it won't have a sizeof 0 either < 1561233072 645856 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make it so it has sizeof of 1, by not storing an actual array if the length is 0 < 1561233133 481888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust allows you to have actual 0 size types < 1561233143 594440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too late to allow them in C++, breaks some existing programs < 1561233159 238485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust allows to have both 0 sized types and 0 length arrays < 1561233174 480289 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and so does GNU C also allows it. < 1561233174 705773 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even has a few rare special cases for how 0 sized types are special < 1561233200 970850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do those special cases allow you to ever divide by zero? < 1561233216 598348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, GNU C started to allow them before C implementations got close to each other with standardization, so there are programs using GNU C that depend on zero-length arrays < 1561233237 156060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's best not to change that either now, even if it makes the rules a bit too complicated < 1561233251 252554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have to use arrays of _negative_ size rather than 0 size if you want a guaranteed assertion error in C < 1561233254 676048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile time < 1561233266 632766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, it doesn't allow you to divide integers by zero < 1561233290 897046 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I sometimes use zero-length arrays, mostly at the end of structs, but not always < 1561233379 8158 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible to divide by zero in a "wheel", but what I defined above is not a wheel; although multiplication and division always work, addition and subtraction will not work if the two Y parts are different and at least one of them is negative. < 1561233657 444935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to have a pair of numbers and special arithmetic on them, you could define such a type, and manipulate them in compile time in recent C++ or in future rust < 1561233698 828058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course you can always manipulate them in runtime in most languages < 1561233977 623919 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A notation like [x,y] can be used to define it (not the actual syntax in the programming language though); 0 means [1,1] but otherwise a literal x means [x,0]; [a,z]+[b,z] is [a+b,z]; [a,z]-[b,z] is [a-b,z]; [a,b]*[c,d] is [a*c,b+d]; [a,b]/[c,d] is [a/c,b-d]l in other cases of + and - you must first convert to a ordinary integer, and then convert back afterward. x-x is always [1,1]. < 1561233996 883530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if you want pairs of numbers where one number can vary in runtime but the other only in compile time, that's been done in C++ for various things including tracking units of measure at compile time, or tracking exponents for fixed point numbers, or tracking widths etc < 1561234018 455005 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a/c rounds to zero in [a,b]/[c,d] then you also must convert to a integer, I suppose, to figure out the result < 1561234026 760292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not a wheel; what is it called? < 1561234031 129049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also have pairs of numbers completely at compile time < 1561234103 379688 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If the first component is a fraction rather than a integer, then division is always defined.) > 1561235675 354044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Tux1 5* 10New user account > 1561235900 77745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63611&oldid=63575 5* 03Tux1 5* (+358) 10 < 1561236722 345130 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : so `Y = 0' is allowed ? < 1561236740 175264 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas : VLAs ? < 1561236750 122186 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : "wheel" ? < 1561236842 733010 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas : reminds me of partially static, partially dynamic integers, where the remainder wrt some specific (static) modulus `m' is static, but the quotient is dynamic < 1561236844 780478 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Yes, for ordinary nonzero numbers, it should be Y=0 < 1561236885 906180 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: "Wheel" is described on Wikipedia, at "Wheel theory" < 1561237128 719615 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see e.g. "Automatic Program Specialization for Interactive Media" (diss.) by Scott Draves at , talking about how to automatically specialize a generic algorithm on e.g. RGB data to an efficient version that takes word bit size into account) < 1561237135 709345 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in 1997) < 1561237165 61637 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++17 constexpr is probably powerful enough that you could make a type that represents the bizarre form of integers zzo38 described < 1561237191 215164 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, mhm < 1561237221 341294 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ZZOInt = NormalInt Int | ZeroPower Nat? < 1561237241 905617 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : hm, for some reason, your strange "base zero floating numbers" reminds be slightly of dual numbers < 1561237243 46491 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( should we allow negative powers of zero? ) < 1561237277 647521 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : instead of "x-x is always [1,1]", it seems to be you want some equivalence relation ? < 1561237368 853420 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: No; that is a sum type but what I meant means always both parts, so like: data ZZOInt = ZZOInt Int Int; (negative powers of zero are specifically allowed too) < 1561237387 646174 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does 0^x * 2^y mean < 1561237392 24048 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also how about powers of 1 < 1561237411 65039 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could have a y-dimensional array of x-dimensional arrays of a zst? < 1561237412 106355 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Powers of 1 are irrelevant. It is always x * 0^y. < 1561237474 276348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, 0^x * 2^y still works; if x is positive then the result is zero but it remembers the values of x and 2^y, so that if you divide by 0^x you will recover 2^y. < 1561237475 249307 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o ( rig `b^(|N)' (`b' a natural number), isomorphic to the naturals `|N', when `b > 1' ) < 1561237511 426301 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't understand "then the result is zero but it remembers ..." < 1561237602 274679 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of the components I mentioned, you will have [2^y,x]. If x is positive then it corresponds to the integer zero (but conversion to an integer will be lossy, since that forgets the original numbers), while if x is negative then it does not correspond to any integer, and if x is zero then it corresponds to the integer 2^y. < 1561237627 218493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aki: you know, it's like homeopathy. you dilute the solution until you underflow its concentration so it comes to contain zero of whatever was solved in, but it still remembers < 1561237636 745684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/aki:/ski:/ < 1561237681 272190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is like homeopathic numbers, I suppose. < 1561237695 319989 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic > 1561237699 523429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63612&oldid=49595 5* 03Tux1 5* (-53) 10Replaced missing github link with personal interpreter link < 1561237939 102961 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1561238275 162463 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1561238773 354033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR < 1561238774 244565 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who told you this? < 1561238776 234007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR < 1561238777 275464 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1561238783 590817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does this work? is there a special case in wisdom? < 1561238811 965333 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I suppose you can look it up. < 1561238875 453867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, wisdom looks strange now < 1561238927 964339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom XQEL < 1561238928 742056 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR//Who told you this? < 1561238943 743686 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1561238949 477737 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/? lowercases its argument < 1561238962 675495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1561238966 385099 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand what it does > 1561239182 637195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Celsee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63613&oldid=63610 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+7) 10/* Overview */ < 1561239307 324576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB is supposed to be stable for up to how long cable length? is 10 meters ok? < 1561239323 69281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how about 5 meters? < 1561239355 129343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if I could lead a USB extension cable from my computer to my bed so I can pause and resume movies with a keyboard in the bed < 1561239411 406640 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's not quite clear where I could lead it that doesn't get into the way < 1561239427 122150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it goes all around everything < 1561239483 993226 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also try to add a IR receiver and put a program to assign the buttons on remote control to the keys, so that the pause button will work, and also whatever other buttons you need it to work; the ones you don't need, you can ignore. < 1561239531 479409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it goes all around everything then it need like 10 meters of cable. the more reasonable way would be to just have it go to the left hand side of the desk, and from there go straight but I leave it there only when I want to use it, and roll it up otherwise so I don't trip over it < 1561239539 813629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it would be, let me see < 1561239549 940540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: or one of these modern bluetooth keyboards < 1561239574 355208 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1561239581 836141 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more straight way it would need about 6 meters < 1561239605 511186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bluetooth keyboard would probably be more reasonable < 1561241202 557968 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I have some 10 meter USB extensions that work great < 1561241208 412370 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 10 metres is probably okay. < 1561241223 868644 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an active extension; it has some electronics in the female end < 1561241259 223899 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the USB FAQ says a passive cable can be 5 metres for full-speed devices, and 3 metres for low-speed ones. < 1561241275 491272 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also get boxes that allow 100 meters or more, using Cat5/6 cable < 1561241287 86936 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about speed but it would be enough for a keyboard certainly < 1561241296 142623 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wireless keyboard would be the obvious solution though < 1561241300 696985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't need full-speed for a keyboard < 1561241305 446791 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience, everything bluetooth is flaky af < 1561241314 823768 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'll be better off with a keyboard that has a dedicated USB receiver dongle < 1561241332 883547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute... "No innocent party ever does more than 2^64 of anything!" < 1561241349 892822 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: why is that so? can't they just standardize bluetooth so that it just works and you don't need separate dongles for everything? < 1561241352 335206 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard, and it worked pretty well with my phone. But I think that's about the only good Bluetooth pairing. < 1561241368 18629 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I've tried many.) < 1561241370 116379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to use a bluetooth keyboard as primary really < 1561241371 103807 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, and they kept adding complexity so that it could do everything, and now almost nobody can implement it right < 1561241384 356944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might want to use a bluetooth mouse though, because for a mouse the cord does pose some mechanical problems in moving it < 1561241414 430299 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a television set and computer machine and IR remote control with IMIDI, then you can use IMIDI, but I think none of them do. < 1561241424 694635 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bluetooth headphones we got at work have been pretty okay. I mean, as far as "work fine for 1-3 flights to MTV a year" goes. < 1561241426 53556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want a television set < 1561241428 986762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a PC < 1561241456 280049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a full-ish size wireless keyboard/trackpad combo that I use for my HTPC, and a miniature one that I use for digital stuff with ham radio out in the field < 1561241466 494403 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly the former might be better with a mini keyboard too < 1561241472 954166 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For your use case, you could probably use a portable computing device that can speak wifi as well. < 1561241489 268987 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh to control the HTPC? sure < 1561241493 547859 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I control mine over VNC sometimes < 1561241495 888367 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would still have a display for the computer, even if it isn't a television set < 1561241511 285043 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the ham radio box (raspberry pi based) is also controlled from vnc, if i don't have my laptop with me I use my phone < 1561241518 441689 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the hardware keyboard is nicer for typing of course < 1561241542 283808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently I have problems with bluetooth, but I'm pretty sure that's because my current mobile phone has a buggy bluetooth implementation < 1561241549 495303 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: see above < 1561241572 35472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: but I think that's a case of "all phones suck" rather than a case of "bluetooth always sucks" < 1561241584 680515 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well bluetooth in practice sucks < 1561241592 964246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible < 1561241599 731271 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the vast majority of implementations are buggy then it calls the whole design into question, no? < 1561241599 852441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but phones also suck sadly < 1561241604 50511 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayway i don't really care < 1561241604 955921 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1561241606 902772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll re-evaluate that position in about a year < 1561241610 449102 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had one of these https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-U6R-00001-Wedge-Mobile-Keyboard/dp/B008OEHPKM and it didn't suck with the less-than-three Android devices I habitually used it with. < 1561241620 204559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up for some time because I don't want to spend all my free time looking for a good phone < 1561241623 831848 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :today is ARRL Field Day so I could be in a field somewhere making ham radio contacts but I decided to stay home and take acid instead < 1561241640 297534 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(After some batteries leaked into it, it started sucking pretty badly, but that's hardly the fault of Bluetooth.) < 1561241671 131452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did build a spiffy solar chargable battery box for next time https://imgur.com/a/DzmexuZ < 1561241692 735834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :_solar chargable_? wtf < 1561241700 963940 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I can plug a solar panel into it < 1561241710 801128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... why? < 1561241731 585884 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's fun to use radios out in the park or the desert or somewhere there isn't AC power < 1561241736 982396 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and useful in disasters as well < 1561241746 314203 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can also charge my phone, run LED lights, etc < 1561241747 952859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want to take a long journey to somewhere far from civilization where you can't find electric network and want to travel lightweight? < 1561241765 806355 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this isn't very lightweight < 1561241769 953625 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has a big lead acid battery in it < 1561241773 74193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :out in the park sure, but you can just carry enough batteries that they last all day < 1561241787 396903 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the principle of the thing! < 1561241800 856023 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an emergency, power may not be available for days or weeks < 1561241814 194915 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for me, I don't like being far from cities for a long time anyway, regardless of baterries < 1561241819 40803 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1561241822 564344 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas I love camping < 1561241825 619826 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be able to access other services too, not just the electric grid < 1561241830 923924 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have gone out to the middle of nowhere desert for fun many times < 1561241868 176587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :camping is fine, but in a place where there's a bathroom and showers and electric outlets, and a town within two hours of distance < 1561241873 398726 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also renewable energy is just cool < 1561241876 334905 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not depending on the grid < 1561241916 919540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's no town, where would I buy fresh vegetables to eat? < 1561241927 48237 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this box and a solar panel and a shoulder bag of radio stuff, I can set up anywhere and talk to people around the world with no infrastructure in between us < 1561241947 943914 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't see why that's cool then whatever, it's not everyone's cup of tea :) < 1561241964 399911 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"anywhere" hehe < 1561241994 240754 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fresh vegetables are pretty good < 1561242011 36112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomatos especially < 1561242014 428754 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1561242041 693912 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the longest i've been away from civilization was 12 days < 1561242092 802242 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was at a festival for the middle 4, about 800 people camping in the woods < 1561242106 51016 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a kind of civilization < 1561242111 235678 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very friendly kind < 1561242126 133879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that helps, that means if you're in trouble you can ask other people to help < 1561242133 496946 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1561242137 491516 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also we went through towns and stuff < 1561242142 516856 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it wasn't really away from civilization < 1561242154 164649 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we were camping and I didn't get on the Internet or use any motorized transportation for 12 days < 1561242165 266581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made one phone call about a train that I didn't end up taking < 1561242183 474545 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I bricked my smartphone on day 1 so I had to use my wife's phone for that < 1561242186 848338 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would ask what the longest time is that you've been in places without mobile phone coverage, but you're not that young < 1561242208 515619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I do the no internet thing on vacations usually < 1561242235 824805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm still in a city and could get on the internet should I need to, and I make phone calls or send SMSes < 1561242253 366392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to tell my family that I'm ok, because they'd worry otherwise < 1561242260 154785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I take photos and stuff < 1561242338 525694 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a digital camera, to be clear < 1561242380 223026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only since about 2008, I've done skiing vactions before that, when I didn't yet have access to a digital camera, and I didn't bring a chemical one < 1561242385 469705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/bring/take/ < 1561242396 441269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did already have a mobile phone then < 1561242408 534680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus were with other people who have a mobile phone too < 1561242426 159924 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now mind you, during skiing, you're still often in places on the mountain with no mobile phone coverage < 1561242677 64241 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1561243146 987318 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i go on hikes with my wife we bring our ham radios to stay in contact < 1561243152 163276 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very useful < 1561243170 314665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay in contact with each other, or with other people? < 1561243172 436388 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the handheld ones function like walkie-talkies, but with a bit better performance and the possibility to do other things besides point-to-point < 1561243180 775031 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with each other, plus whoever else might be nearby < 1561243191 60761 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's an emergency i could call for help on one of the local repeaters < 1561243195 577981 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always program them in before I go < 1561243208 932524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1561243222 70217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you can want contact outside of emergencies too < 1561243226 649797 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1561243236 527313 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for that we do simplex (no rpeater) < 1561243258 282911 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a bit rude to monopolize some ham club's repeater for your hiking trip that is of no interest to anyone else < 1561243281 110221 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the limitations of analog voice radio < 1561243290 331899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :me, these days I take a mobile phone, a spare mobile phone, and various forms of money that I could use to buy mobile phones and cards or phone boothe or internet cafe fees or other forms of communication < 1561243290 542450 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each repeater can support a single conversation at once < 1561243353 610378 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the old days several businesses would share a repeater by transmitting different subaudible tones, which would cue the receiving radio < 1561243356 712795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only started carrying a spare mobile phone one and a half years ago. I'm paranoid. < 1561243366 182935 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first implementations of the tone generation/detection were electromechanical!) < 1561243388 514401 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means you wouldn't hear the other guy's conversations, but you could still only have one conversation at a time < 1561243437 735250 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then trunking systems were developed, which have a digital control channel that dynamically allocates users among a set of analog voice channels < 1561243482 485024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there multiplexers that work by rapid shot time slices synchronized between pairs of parties, like there used to be in old telephone line equipment twentyfive years ago? < 1561243484 142290 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you have the modern systems where everything's digital and encrypted (aside from hams) and linked over the Internet etc < 1561243492 124153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or thirty years ago or something < 1561243503 468749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the endpoint telephones, but in telephone exchanges < 1561243518 866879 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: for digital yes < 1561243535 142930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for telephones, this existed without digital technology < 1561243541 575433 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example DMR and P25 have alternating time slots which transmit audio packets < 1561243544 578633 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is cool < 1561243546 914260 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have links about that? < 1561243547 471090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by time-slicing analog voice signals < 1561243554 604987 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of frequency-division multiplexing for analog phone signals < 1561243555 982308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't sadly... let me try to google it < 1561243569 616416 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not time-division < 1561243571 480726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I could be misinformed, I'm not the electric engineer here < 1561243578 387392 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like it would produce a lot of annoying artifacts < 1561243587 21411 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with primitive, electromechanical equipment < 1561243605 368879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it has to be electromechanical < 1561243618 616687 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they already had transistors and integrated circuits < 1561243631 540791 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1561243642 735825 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking earlier < 1561243649 347006 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that FDMA was the earliest way to do this < 1561243668 793776 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's relatively easy to shift a signal up or down by an arbitrary frequency using only analog parts < 1561243681 17394 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vacuum tubes, even < 1561243735 180472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that I misunderstand this and it actually involves taking digital samples < 1561243766 186923 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a voice call occupies a small bandwidth relative to the usable bandwidth on a decent quality phone line < 1561243786 610115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing#Multiplexed_digital_transmission mentions only digital < 1561243859 249868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that article says I was mistaken < 1561243867 209477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was digital, but pretty early: < 1561243896 329185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing#History < 1561245482 812877 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:23 < b_jonas> I would ask what the longest time is that you've been in places without mobile phone coverage, but you're not that young < 1561245493 852091 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well supposing we start at the year 2000 < 1561245499 524100 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I think it would have been burning man in 2008 < 1561245504 519557 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a week or 8 days or so < 1561245533 683728 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though i've gone longer without access to a phone personally, either because mine broke or because I was in countries where I couldn't / didn't want to roam and didn't have a SIM, etc) < 1561245554 986083 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is LTE on the playa now (one of many things contributing to Burning Man totally jumping the shark) but wasn't back then < 1561245592 950564 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they had a wifi mesh with some sort of backhaul. it is close enough to Gerlach that you could do a wifi backhaul using consumer gear < 1561245607 942250 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and perfect line of sight, since it's on a dry lake bed and Gerlach is on the shore of that lake) < 1561245630 156043 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway they had wifi on some experimental basis but i didn't use it < 1561245632 577956 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course they had < 1561245633 847917 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :H A M < 1561245635 879246 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :R A D I O < 1561245645 398338 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wasn't licensed then and wasn't particularly interested < 1561245758 289099 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:40 < kmc> because it's a bit rude to monopolize some ham club's repeater for your hiking trip that is of no interest to anyone else < 1561245762 338397 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ right, so I was going to mention < 1561245770 775507 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other thing I can do with this battery box + some other equipment I have < 1561245785 700006 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is set up a temporary repeater for myself and my friends < 1561245793 738879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1561245805 207895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of repeater? < 1561245819 713619 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :analog FM voice repeater < 1561245829 345667 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it will receive on (for example) 146.430 MHz < 1561245838 443726 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and simultaneously retransmit what it hears on 445.430 MHz < 1561245857 380946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1561245880 931827 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that provides communication between handheld radios in the area which might otherwise not be able to talk to each other < 1561245886 426043 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if the repeater is in a good location < 1561245893 832557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can set that up and still have enough equipment for a device that can send to that and one that can receive from that? < 1561245901 444113 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1561245907 441842 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bunch of radios... < 1561245908 168059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better < 1561245910 610579 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have a problem < 1561245924 903069 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can't have too much electronics < 1561245929 594412 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"once you get locked into a serious radio collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can" < 1561245939 851686 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they always break down or happen to not work for what you want, so you want a lot of them < 1561245945 601791 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true < 1561245954 11536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you unexpectedly need more than you thought < 1561245975 864662 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bunch of those Baofeng radios, $30 handheld radio from China that's a bit crap but basically works < 1561245986 348806 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was talk that the FCC would ban them so I impulse bought 3 < 1561246034 655953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1561246051 171303 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main problem is that they are purchased by people with no ham license or knowledge, and they also allow transmitting outside the ham bands, so clueless users just program in whatever frequencies they pull out of their ass and end up interfering with business, public safety, whatever else < 1561246077 493087 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are few restrictions on selling equipment to hams, but when you start marketing something to the general public then the FCC gets much more interested < 1561246085 269790 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the claim is that they are doing that < 1561246100 428740 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat similar situation has existed for a long time on CB < 1561246125 856347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unrelated: a few days ago I ordered a nice book about geometry that I think will be a good complement to the three references that I already have on my shelf. it will arrive some time next month, the hard part will be understanding it of course, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot from it. < 1561246142 383593 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CB radio is limited by law to just 4 watts AM (12 watts SSB), however you can buy radios that claim to be for the 10 meter ham band but are clearly meant to be modified and used on CB illegally, at 100W or more < 1561246148 21652 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1561246149 506957 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whic book? < 1561246210 125567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the book is Jürgen Richter-Gebert, "Perspectives on Projective Geometry" < 1561246256 287879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, that happens for wifi too, there are wifi transmitters sold that can be easily unlocked to transmit with a power higher than they're allowed in equipment sold < 1561246295 592586 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a book I wouldn't necessarily get just because, but it's one that has what I think is a lovely name: https://www.amazon.co.uk/generatingfunctionology-Third-Herbert-S-Wilf/dp/1568812795 < 1561246308 709780 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had it as the textbook on a course way back when. < 1561246351 408211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: do you have a copy of Concrete Mathematics yet? just wondering < 1561246389 95072 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have many reference works here. But we did have that as a textbook as well. < 1561246406 63536 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pruned down the bookshelf a lot when relocating FI-UK. This is a smaller flat. < 1561246433 528705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Concrete Mathematics, I like how the cover is made to look like a block of concrete. < 1561246449 362558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not in the translated copy that I have < 1561246461 108276 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cover is yellow and not like any kind of concrete < 1561246476 679341 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. The one I've seen looks like the Amazon picture, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Concrete-Mathematics-Foundation-Computer-Science/dp/0201558025 < 1561246477 467411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not uniform yellow, has a pattern, but that pattern isn't like what you see in concrete < 1561246497 944700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1561246505 901013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's hard to tell from such a photo whether it looks like concrete < 1561246518 717456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to see how light shines on it and how it changes color when it becomes wet < 1561246526 796095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither of which you can do on a photo < 1561246528 754894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't look *that* much like concrete. < 1561246554 920216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I kept TAOCP, and that Schneier's three-book set, and the Prolog book, and SICP. And a few others. < 1561246647 65422 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an ebook copy of TAOCP volumes 1, 2, 3, 4 now, and gave away my old translated volumes 1, 2, 3. < 1561246656 804098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Scheier's three-book set? < 1561246709 952783 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a box of three of his books. < 1561246736 128290 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Concrete Mathematics but it's currently lent to my father so it's not on the shelf next to me; I have three geometry reference books, the Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, Stein algorithms book, < 1561246741 608685 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think probably Applied Cryptography, Secrets & Lies, and one more, maybe Practical Cryptography. < 1561246748 790304 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I did keep the CLRS as well. < 1561246752 976661 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the APUE. < 1561246780 897226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Tanenbaum's OS book. < 1561246785 43255 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Lovász exercises in graph theory book in translation, Hajnal's introductory graph tehory book, the Rónyai-Ivanyos-Szabó algorithms textbook though that's not really useful, < 1561246809 694478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Erdős, Surányi introd number theory book < 1561246836 2819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's about all that could count as maths reference books I think (the TAOCP included) < 1561246841 548802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1561246854 358279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have Warren's Hacker's Delight second edition < 1561246863 323856 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only actual maths book I have is the generic Kreyszig's Advanced Engineering Mathematics, 8th edition. < 1561246879 147025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some more maths books here, but I don't count them as reference books < 1561246887 873258 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like there's a few of Smullyan's books < 1561246902 866173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all three pop science books by Rényi Alfréd < 1561246920 414054 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also got three machine learning books that have some amount of math in them, but I wouldn't exactly count them as maths books. < 1561247036 638949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I also have digital copies of the ed. Iványi algorithms book that are freely available as a download from the internet < 1561247040 494767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should count < 1561247046 623640 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a physical copy of any of the volumes < 1561247084 92228 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like there's also one DSP book, that's probably relatively mathy. < 1561247151 51060 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we culled about one half to two thirds of all books we had, and it wasn't particularly easy. < 1561247212 962349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, this is why I am now afraid to buy new books < 1561247220 213792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because even if I could fit them here, what will I do when I move? < 1561247225 845609 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need a copy of my thesis, and are okay with picking it up in London, I think I'd be happy to donate one -- I think I've got something like 10-20 copies, and there's absolutely no use for them. < 1561247530 127429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: don't you have electronic copies on the internet? < 1561247545 391189 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's available there as well. < 1561247550 915196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1561247586 161413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what your thesis is about so I can't tell if I want one or not < 1561247592 24769 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just get the PDF, you don't get a cheaply bound paperback copy where rubbing the cover the wrong way around leaves streaks in it. < 1561247602 43306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will be in London some time near 2019-07-28 though < 1561247614 485683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/handle/123456789/19777 < 1561247638 938766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though for only a short time so I might not want to fit picking up a thesis into it < 1561247661 563426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-12.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, fancy < 1561247685 368653 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough, I might actually be in MTV around that time as well. < 1561247817 866385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's enough US-CA #esoteric people to warrant organizing something. I do have a free weekend though.