< 1560903047 474509 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet says the 9th and 10th digit of a UPS "1Z..." format tracking number denotes the service type, but this one has a code that doesn't appear on any of the lists of service codes. < 1560905219 944654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Re-routed through Fort Meade. ) < 1560905781 758950 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi int-e < 1560905790 475158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo where's the application form to join the int-e fan club < 1560905929 235775 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did I do now? < 1560905999 194952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it'll say it on the form < 1560906047 108758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you have the forms? < 1560906047 379349 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you probably do not know whether this might not have been altogether fnord but it drove out a cant far more offensive. < 1560906058 994651 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1560906059 103696 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp ukparl youtube < 1560906062 308934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for once I approve of the fnord. < 1560906067 569684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1560906067 679069 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1560907837 103762 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1560908389 582040 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1560909953 185871 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kfxvsruemqtivnyx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1560921380 585577 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1560921735 280019 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560924972 366061 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1560927163 216128 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1560927203 268735 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1560933024 778481 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1560936948 395726 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1560936976 768684 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560937537 271090 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1A8553B4DE4929A1EF8C51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1560939114 264742 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.229.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560941738 968118 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufyskjjdvcrkmzwe JOIN :#esoteric < 1560950708 255815 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufyskjjdvcrkmzwe QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1560951494 267387 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1560952365 394470 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-161-140-152.range86-161.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1560952368 306717 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1A8553B4DE4929A1EF8C51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1560952502 269060 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuesfonfezreylae JOIN :#esoteric < 1560952798 582080 :Melvar!~melvar@dslc-082-082-054-010.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Quit: rebooting < 1560953434 234487 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-161-140-152.range86-161.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1560953668 273926 :Melvar!~melvar@dslc-082-082-054-010.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1560954349 826656 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 633 seconds < 1560954461 580857 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1560955253 801670 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1560958763 823540 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1560958936 218984 :tuxcrafting!~user@37.142.2.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560962895 230346 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1560963161 608423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fundamental theorem of taneb < 1560963162 679462 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing not involving sex, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing not involving sex that Taneb did not invent. < 1560964702 247882 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1560964748 628387 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560964874 102494 :TryingGeorge!~TryingGeo@92.186.113.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560965125 803837 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1560965469 50566 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand that theorem. < 1560965470 776317 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d0f3fc2d314d134b.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1560965600 814830 :TryingGeorge!~TryingGeo@92.186.113.47 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1560965756 781566 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d0f3fc2d314d134b.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1560965888 690537 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-321-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1560966669 420701 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1560966977 211077 :tuxcrafting!~user@37.142.2.12 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1560968018 695307 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-321-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1560968052 344112 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1560968062 786847 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560968153 274711 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.229.64 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1560969371 797822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits fundamental theorem of taneb < 1560969375 459729 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän oerjän tsweẗt < 1560969384 302245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite what I expected < 1560969554 969350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2015-07-22.html#l0d <-- I guess it's "you can't just claim something; you have to prove it" < 1560969637 194481 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: someone complained about it before... leading to an... improvement? https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-05-27.html#lZ < 1560970910 481198 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1560971608 855658 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ℵrjan < 1560971609 924439 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ℵrjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1560971628 44823 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it should involve an actual Hebrew aleph then < 1560971633 816734 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 NICK :arseniiv < 1560971688 374535 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW I was thinking about “all values are Xs” esolangs and I think I stumbled on a unused X < 1560971762 859820 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, zippers and “half zippers” (terms with one hole, or maybe even several holes, homogeneous or heterogeneous) of various kinds < 1560971788 822237 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can combine terms with holes in a straightforward way < 1560971840 930977 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though zipper operations—like go left, go right, go up for trees—are harder to realize if all we have is half-zippers < 1560971885 878793 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1560972066 526636 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting < 1560972082 541082 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the code a zipper too < 1560972304 385429 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cont.) but I seemed to see an easy fix. E. g. take 1-holed binary trees T made from 2: T² → T, 0: T and _: T (this is a hole), < 1560972304 492749 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let A = …2(InnerA, _)…, and let there be B and C; we can make A′ = …2(_, C)… and B′ = B[_ ↦ InnerA] or something. I’ve already forgot what it was < 1560972304 549975 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: in a language where it’s representable as a value, why not! It could even do something continuation-like maybe. I hadn’t think about code yet < 1560972393 696606 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was more interested in a holed terms, not actual zippers, but I think zippers are OK too < 1560972412 471386 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1560972483 785116 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for all operations to conserve count of _’s is fairly esoteric in itself I think < 1560972549 614664 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it will be useful for someone! I have no ideas yet < 1560974710 973185 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1560975506 751259 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1560976387 219005 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1560976501 596737 :TryingGeorge!~TryingGeo@92.186.113.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560976603 890188 :TryingGeorge!~TryingGeo@92.186.113.47 QUIT :Client Quit < 1560976674 907458 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1560978636 241390 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1560978722 548959 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1560978843 267286 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1560978877 268496 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1560978976 214386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560979182 318122 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1560979206 204980 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1560979350 394593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RarVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63579&oldid=63438 5* 03Void 5* (+52) 10/* See also */ < 1560979382 697114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the same vein as finding universal Turing-machines with a small number of symbols and control states, has there been attempts to improve on that if you're allowed to have two stacks instead of a tape, such as the one you can emulate in Underload? < 1560979419 211623 :MDead!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1560979431 702171 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the correspondance pretty direct there < 1560979433 655158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I've mostly been trying that for Turing machines, The Waterfall Model, and Jelly, but not two-stack machines < 1560979441 345397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: in one direction yes < 1560979448 583171 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1560979449 555447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: having two stacks is more flexible than having a tape because it allows you to insert and delete symbols < 1560979451 330936 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1560979512 645118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I'm not sure how much the insert and delete operations help, normally instead of an AAAABBBBBCCCC type encoding you can use ABCABCABCABC-B- < 1560979516 874150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reminded of the minimization partly because I thought of the amazing brainfuck two bracket universality, and then I was wondering on Consumer society, and realized that in the restricted variant of Consumer Society where you can't nest brackets, you can still emulate two-stack machines < 1560979535 554796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it only seems to help if you're trying to simulate unboundedly many counters/stacks, rather than any specific fixed number < 1560979547 322316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm < 1560979556 199809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that might help < 1560979569 98549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think of that < 1560979578 337175 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1560979584 359284 :MDead!~MDude@74.5.156.180 NICK :MDude < 1560979637 530786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to admit that I was also thinking of simulating multiple (but a fixed number of) tapes < 1560979702 505617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can have arbitrarily many tapes you can use them as counters by just marking a single 1 on each of them and using the position of the tape head as the counter value < 1560979702 743965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Underload and Brainfuck makes that sort of thing easy, because they let you skip over cells without having to enumerate each symbol, unlike in say Thue < 1560979758 600041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, actually editing the tapes at runtime probably makes things more efficient < 1560979767 922416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't want arbitrarily many tapes, but a finite number of tapes is useful for things like simulating a machine that has both code and data < 1560979796 432568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: heh, I actually see programming languages the other way round to some extent: having separate code and data is hard to simulate, thus a language is better if it doesn't < 1560979816 760289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but memory-mapping the code doesn't really help much because you still have to access two separate points in it at once) < 1560979822 52583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe, but I don't like the restriction of too few tapes < 1560979854 232502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be really nice from a tarpit point of view would be a simple ZISC that doesn't rely on random access < 1560979876 464160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, I guess, what a Turing machine is < 1560979914 4657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does "doesn't rely on random access" allow a machine with twelve stacks? < 1560979930 692905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :twelve stacks of bits < 1560979939 502251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically, but I'm aiming to have just a single data structure (stack is impossible, but queue/tape are reasonable) < 1560980000 902120 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1560980072 574625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'd like to know is, is there a natural number n such that for any natural number N, you can simulate any N-stack finite control machine with an n-stack finite control machine without more than polylog factor slowdown? < 1560980080 974114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some reasonably limited translation < 1560980105 775090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :polylog in the runtime but only for fixed N, exponent may grow in N < 1560980110 487940 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/exponent/degree/ < 1560980119 465331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is polylog again? < 1560980127 677265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :polynomial of logarithm < 1560980135 973050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :times n, I assume < 1560980159 959961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so simulating t timesteps in O(t*log**10(t)) is fine, but simulating t timesteps in O(t**1.01) timesteps is not fine < 1560980167 983130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, factor slowdown < 1560980180 913271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in how many time more step it takes < 1560980186 663522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know my phrasing is weird < 1560980205 930656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically you need O(n**2) time to simulate a two-tape turing-machine on a one-tape turing-machine < 1560980221 49214 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's actually Theta(n**2) or something like that I think < 1560980231 641684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it can't move data to distances faster < 1560980263 665399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that you can't because once you're storing two of the N stacks on the same one of the n stack, you can't change from an operation on one of those stacks to an operation on another in less than time proportional to the difference in their sizes < 1560980267 259524 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0030ac2dbd4ebd6fba.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1560980277 120045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my question is like, are five tapes enough? is a fixed number of tapes enough? < 1560980292 705530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so any polylog-speed interpreter would have to be optimising somehow, and it seems implausible that you could optimise /all/ programs < 1560980302 16032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? oerjan < 1560980303 137652 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1560980312 620081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: amortized is a relevant word < 1560980341 13886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you could amortize a random pattern of jumping around between the stacks < 1560980354 526183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point it did seem plausible to me that there may be a general scheme to optimize compressing multiple tapes that way < 1560980364 279626 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure anymore < 1560980364 279675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could, though? you'd need some sort of cache < 1560980503 899524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, when one stack is consumed faster than another, you could spend some of that time swapping around their elements on the tape that stores both, so the top of both are stored close to your head < 1560980528 595911 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't rearrange the whole tape of course, < 1560980536 524541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a part proportional with how much time you spent < 1560980594 214648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a second tape for this of course, otherwise even exchanging k elements with another k elements would take O(k) time, but you can have a second tape < 1560980613 326894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/O(k)/O(k**2)/ < 1560980654 4790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do have a second tape, so you can collect amortized credit for k time, then spend another k time to swap k elements of one stack with k elements of another stack, as represented on the tape, in O(k) time with the help of another tape < 1560980691 625417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't get this to work, but neither do I see why it must be impossible < 1560980825 66606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem case is the one where tape n contains nk elements, for some constant k < 1560980832 36278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the tapes are growining < 1560980834 405891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, s/tape/stack < 1560980842 63477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not forever, eventually you start reading the values again) < 1560980897 449680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, you can deal with /that/ case by changing the interleave pattern, but it's hard to come up with a general rule for doing that < 1560980954 884522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there can't be a fixed interleave pattern, because you can't predict (on the thread of halting problem) how the stacks will be accessed in the future. you need some sort of tricky dynamic structure. < 1560980981 786226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with metadata stored too < 1560980994 899629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at runtime < 1560981314 35523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the polylog of runtime allowance means you can even store each original stack element repeatedly log time times, and tag each occurance with the depth of that element from the bottom of the stack in binary < 1560981327 830973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about that "you can't predict"; it's /probably/ correct, but if the program you're predicting produces its output quickly it'll be quite predictable, and if it's slow you'll be able to use the time it's taking as part of the time you have < 1560981357 653405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we do something adverserial? It seems that there's a k+1 tape universal machine for k-tape TMs... so we can actually run the assumed k-tape version of our (say) 3k-tape machine and act upon what it writes and reads on a tape... < 1560981360 164720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so things like the halting theorem don't prove that it's impossible < 1560981396 400230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*adversarial < 1560981416 783237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe < 1560981450 963513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The problem with that adversarial approach is that we can't know what the data written *means*... halting problem and all that; the transformation to the k-tape machine can be all sorts of magical. :-( ) < 1560981528 127435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unrelated question. ais523: you said you were writing a library for balanced trees, copy-on-write. will that library allow me to implement a tree-in-a-tree, where I store the nodes of a tree as values inside a tree and the address of those nodes as keys, to be able to store all previous versions of the tree in memory together and any number of iterators to them in such a way that the iterators never go < 1560981534 146408 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stale as long as the node exists? < 1560981569 833406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1560981597 643610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that last part was phrased a bit confusingly < 1560981632 96216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really got anywhere with personal programming projects in the last several weeks < 1560981641 351629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all been my day job and non-programming things < 1560981650 597451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know < 1560981654 979355 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been like that for years now < 1560981662 858161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1560981721 405148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's of course so much that I'd _like_ to write < 1560981734 205120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's all sort of other non-job projects that I'd also like to work on < 1560981737 877857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only programming < 1560981742 494352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is hard < 1560981754 710562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or being an adult is hard or something < 1560984006 657018 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is more specifically too short :( < 1560984161 511918 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1560984556 795251 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0030ac2dbd4ebd6fba.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1560985435 303080 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00692782eda47da50e.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1560988253 262882 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1560988416 789488 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.239.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds