00:33:24 ais523: agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions 00:33:30 -!- adu has joined. 00:33:49 though I didn’t understand what 0/0 = _ means 00:37:16 also it seems I’m not as lucky to have an exact construction of Cantor’s pairing inversion included in ProofWiki. So I will need to be helped by someone here and @told about it or (hopefully someone has some links), or else reinvent that particular wheel :D 00:39:01 agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions => the day I had known about x mod 0 := x I was very very happy. It plays nice with ≡ (mod 0) and Z/0Z, it’s a total cake 00:50:00 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:17:23 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:57:51 -!- xkapastel has joined. 02:15:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:16:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:21:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:32:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:00:58 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:34:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:38:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:55:48 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:57:13 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63330&oldid=63329 * A * (+47) /* Computational class */ Bad language... 03:59:15 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63331&oldid=63326 * A * (+7) 03:59:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:04:25 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63332&oldid=63331 * A * (+501) 04:05:06 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63333&oldid=63332 * A * (-40) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ What 04:05:23 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63334&oldid=63333 * A * (+0) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ 04:05:56 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63335&oldid=63330 * A * (+77) /* Computational class */ 04:07:23 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:08:15 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63336&oldid=63334 * A * (+318) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ 04:09:40 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63337&oldid=63336 * A * (+41) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ 04:11:08 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63338&oldid=63337 * A * (+156) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ 06:31:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:44:26 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 06:48:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:59:01 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:00:55 -!- moei has joined. 07:19:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:22:13 -!- orin has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:50:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:35:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:05:21 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:05:45 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:16:03 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:42:27 -!- vetrivel has joined. 09:42:34 hey 09:43:11 I have a suggestion after going through the comments given for your project in hn. 09:43:13 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=20154008&goto=item%3Fid%3D20150179%2320154008 09:47:45 -!- vetrivel has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:52:27 -!- tuxcrafting has joined. 09:53:07 -!- tuxcrafting has quit (Client Quit). 09:53:37 -!- tuxcrafting has joined. 10:20:12 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63339&oldid=63335 * A * (-122) /* Computational class */ 10:24:07 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63340&oldid=63293 * A * (+76) /* Computational class */ 10:24:46 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63341&oldid=63340 * A * (-3) /* Adar-= */ If I'm getting it right... 10:25:29 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63342&oldid=63339 * A * (-214) /* Computational class */ 10:25:48 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63343&oldid=63342 * A * (-1938) /* Turing completeness proof waiting to be verified */ 10:25:57 [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63344&oldid=63343 * A * (-1146) /* Adar Interpreter */ 10:26:50 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63345&oldid=63341 * TuxCrafting * (-76) Undo revision 63340 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): by definition, a PDA can emulate a FSA. however, adar is a FSA, therefore it cannot emulate a PDA. i think you misunderstand "compile to" 10:27:28 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63346&oldid=63345 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Undo revision 63341 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) revert FSA -> PDA category edit because it's not a PDA 10:28:26 i think they're confusing "to" and "from" 10:28:41 [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63347&oldid=63338 * A * (-359) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine or via reduction */ 10:31:40 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:37:44 [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63348&oldid=63344 * Salpynx * (+2274) /* Computational class */ raising you a single register counter machine, which may or may not be equivalent? 10:47:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:52:30 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63349&oldid=63348 * Salpynx * (+16) /* Computational class */ clarifying that not all Adar programs are 1CMs, 11:09:18 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:38:02 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:50:05 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63350&oldid=63349 * A * (+289) 11:50:25 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63351&oldid=63350 * A * (-2) 11:52:05 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63352&oldid=63351 * A * (-287) Undo; that is totally rubbish. 12:07:15 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63353&oldid=63352 * A * (+4) Hgi 's 12:09:09 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63354&oldid=63353 * TuxCrafting * (-5) don't change the wording of other people's posts 12:11:27 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63355&oldid=63346 * A * (+87) /* Looping counter */ 12:12:50 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63356&oldid=63355 * TuxCrafting * (-87) Undo revision 63355 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) the spec explicitely says adar operates on *integers*. don't add examples which just abuse the implementation 12:30:38 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63357&oldid=63356 * TuxCrafting * (-57) what. of course it's possible to make oscillators with a different form 12:30:44 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63358&oldid=63357 * A * (-1) /* Adar-= */ 12:36:53 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63359&oldid=63354 * A * (+390) /* Computational class */ Need verification for coverage of the formula 12:40:22 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63360&oldid=63359 * A * (+18) /* Request for a different form for oscillators */ 12:44:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:45:37 [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63361&oldid=63360 * TuxCrafting * (+536) 12:46:26 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63362&oldid=63361 * TuxCrafting * (+0) wording 12:47:43 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:47:46 -!- tuxcrafting has quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1). 12:50:39 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63363&oldid=63358 * A * (+140) /* Oscillators */ 12:51:41 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63364&oldid=63362 * A * (+237) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ 12:52:03 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63365&oldid=63364 * A * (+77) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ sign 12:53:24 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63366&oldid=63363 * A * (+50) /* Oscillators */ 12:54:57 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63367&oldid=63365 * A * (-95) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ golf my message 12:55:34 [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63368&oldid=63367 * A * (-71) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ Trim my message 12:58:11 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63369&oldid=63366 * A * (+176) /* Examples */ 12:59:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:12:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:13:37 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63370&oldid=63369 * A * (+249) /* Cat program */ Definitely more useful 13:21:17 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63371&oldid=63370 * A * (+125) /* + interpreter */ 13:25:50 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63372&oldid=63371 * A * (+246) /* APLWSI interpreter */ 13:40:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:00:34 -!- adu has joined. 14:13:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 14:16:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:16:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 14:25:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:25:51 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63373&oldid=63372 * A * (+31) /* Oscillators */ 14:30:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:30:14 -!- tuxcrafting has joined. 14:34:28 [[NullScript 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63374 * A * (+2422) Created page with "[[NullScript 1]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. It is a subset of [[NullScript 2]] and inspired by [[NullScript 2]] and bf. == Commands == These are NullScript 1's..." 14:36:35 [[NullScript 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63375&oldid=63374 * A * (-832) 14:45:52 -!- MDude has joined. 14:46:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:54:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:14:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:20:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:25:45 TIL (from Logitech): a keycap snapping off (legs broken, stuck inside the switch) during the warranty period while typing normally is "normal wear and tear". 15:28:26 :| 15:30:15 convenient 15:32:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:33:00 As a special one time courtesy only, because they're such Good Guys, they might still mail me a spare keycap. Maybe. If they feel like it. 15:33:41 I can see how that's a problem... they do that 105 times and somebody can have a brand new looking keyboard! 15:45:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:47:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:48:07 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:48:35 [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63376&oldid=63368 * Ais523 * (+851) /* Computational class */ the point of no return 16:05:35 [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63377&oldid=62993 * B jonas * (+765) on bitwise ops 16:11:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:13:00 [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63378&oldid=63377 * B jonas * (+0) INT opcode had wrong encoding 16:19:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:13:43 @tell b_jonas there is—I think, a less painful—pairing function based on bit interleaving (BTW like in tuxcrafting’s Minsky machine impl from yesterday’s active wiki page) 17:13:43 Consider it noted. 17:14:44 I think implemeting this one (and projections) would be smooth, but I’ll do it a bit later 17:30:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:53:57 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:11:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:12:29 in a creole esolang, one has functions with names “::”, “fst” and “cdr” 18:13:06 or maybe “cons”, “_1” and “snd” 18:16:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:19:49 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:22:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:38:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:04:18 -!- tuxcrafting has quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1). 19:18:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:23:12 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:43:01 -!- APic has quit (Quit: Narf.). 19:50:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:56:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:06:24 -!- APic has joined. 20:09:53 -!- sleepnap has joined. 20:21:30 [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63379&oldid=63373 * Salpynx * (-5) /* Oscillators */ not really that complex, in fact "pretty trivial" was used to describe constructing other forms, just spread the effects over more registers 20:27:28 [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63380&oldid=63379 * Salpynx * (+19) Category: No IO 20:30:11 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:37:53 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:42:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:49:34 so, it’s not that painless as it appeared, if one is to stick to use μ only when it’s really necessary 20:50:02 but maybe floor … sqrt things are even worse 20:50:58 arseniiv: sorry, I'm too lazy to read the logs... what kind of target would that be for? 20:52:10 int-e: traditional recursive functions, i. e. when we should return only one natural number, not an arbitrary tuple of them 20:53:19 I would probably go with C(n+k+1,2) + C(k,1)... 20:53:49 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:54:03 Encoding bijectively as natural numbers, where natural numbers start at 0. 20:54:06 I almost have written cons, fst and snd by bit-interleaving, and I was distracted by many unexpected and emotional things today 20:54:09 -!- MDude has joined. 20:54:45 bit interleaving sounds fairly painful in that context, to me. 20:54:46 if not for those, I’d be quicker, but just now I’m quite melancholic instead 20:55:34 int-e: yeah. At first I forgot that we work with S … Z and not bit strings. For bit strings, it’s a lot easier and more natural 20:55:42 (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.) 20:55:58 Ah. Right, if you have bit strings then I'd agree. 20:56:31 so I had to estimate bit length of a number (as it itself :D it would work) and do explicit bit shifts 20:56:37 There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... it's nicer that the successor based one when doing complexity theory. 20:57:25 (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.) => I try to avoid it until the last step, when we run some Minsky machine 20:58:04 So Bellantoni & Cook use that, for example, for their characterization of polytime computable functions in a restricted primitive recursive formalism. 20:58:31 arseniiv: which is fine; it's actually *bounded* minimization, and that can be done with primitive recursion alone. 20:58:40 There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... => yeah, I even had independently rediscovered it and made an eso YEA 20:58:46 s/forgot/forget 20:58:49 But it's a useful building block to have. 20:59:05 int-e: ah, a bounded one 20:59:47 arseniiv: shameless plug: https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Minsky_Machines.html 21:01:36 (built on top of https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Recursion-Theory-I.html which does all the hard things... including pairing, and going all the way up to undecidability. It's missing the Kleene normal form theorem though (recursive functions are *defined* as a single minimization over a primitive recursive predicate; so it's missing that that recursive functions are closed under minimization)) 21:02:57 int-e: as for the other way around, I had sketched up some procedure to make M. machines into μ-recursive functions, but these were not bare-bones ones, having tuple return values and several other useful additions 21:03:29 oops 21:03:39 I mean, functions into machines 21:08:16 arseniiv: yeah the other direction looks pretty tedious. 21:13:48 (Well, I guess the main challenge would be to come up with the right building blocks to make this easy.) 21:15:03 The requested page title contains invalid characters: "<". <-- there goes my plan to add a redirect from YEA to YEOOIIOOIOA 21:15:38 (I probably wouldn't have followed through with it anyway... but I'm not sure.) 21:19:21 there goes my plan to add a redirect from YEA to YEOOIIOOIOA => well, it would be not a bad idea indeed 21:19:36 with s/…/forget merged 21:19:40 :D 21:20:12 wait what? 21:20:22 fungot: forget what? 21:20:22 int-e: by charles fnord.), is composed, came into use; anterior to the existence of such a character, even in this country? are you not afraid of that. you have done exceedingly well by me. 21:21:02 the final definitions look more or less nice: 21:21:02 cons = chain plus (chain bitexpand π_1_2, chain shl1 (chain bitexpand 21:21:02 π_2_2)) 21:21:02 fst = bitshrink 21:21:02 snd = chain bitshrink shr1 21:21:03 (my haskellish syntax, and I mean “chain” everywhere, was partly a mistake) 21:21:32 arseniiv: yeah I imagine some intermediate language would actually be useful for a Minsky machine -> recursive function translation. 21:22:01 wait what? => I still forget, so the present tense seems more appropriate :D 21:22:30 arseniiv: ah. 21:22:48 int-e: also I used a C-like language to represent Minsky machines other way around 21:22:59 arseniiv: how about "keep forgetting" while you're improving that part ;-) 21:23:09 so one can easily syntactically compile 21:23:20 int-e: yeah, I totally keep doing that 21:23:54 arseniiv: you're in good company there... Turing did some close-to-structured programming for Turing Machines as well. 21:23:55 as for the other one, I always need to open charmap to write its name 21:27:06 arseniiv: I had great fun with that Minsky machine formalization. I don't actually have any higher level representation of minsky machines, but I made the lemmas composable in a nice way, allowing me to write pseudo-code as part of the proof: http://paste.debian.net/1087492/ 21:28:05 (I'll readily admit that this is not very readable, but the comments do actually correspond to the instantiated lemmas) 21:29:23 certainly I agree that if you defined it yourself, it should appear more readable and natural 21:33:00 I feel a great urge to play minecraft instead of finishing what I begun with that implementation. Everything seems ready to do semantically filled things but it’s late and I suddenly remember I’m lazy 21:33:26 so I’ll go with the easy route 21:33:50 hmm minecraft... 21:34:12 there are villagers to transport by rail and be enslaved in a small box far away from the ground 21:34:26 :D 21:35:03 I try to avoid open-ended games. I don't always succeed. 21:35:30 int-e: you should play factorio hth 21:35:31 yeah, it’s a total waste of time, so we’re on and off 21:36:25 shachaf: I'm afraid to look what that is 21:38:26 ah no that looks safe from me 21:38:37 AFAIK there you are stranded on an alien planet and you build factories to fly from there in the end, but you don’t have to, and instead you may be allowed to build a gigantic display which plays a video of Sandstorm by Darude 21:38:42 Are you sure? 21:39:16 pretty sure 21:39:36 I'll sooner get back into SimCity. :P 21:40:45 at least SimCity seems less wasteful than Sims 21:52:32 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:54:45 Factorio is the best. 21:55:05 You're always automating everything so there's pretty much no manual work to do. 21:57:27 -!- sleepnap has joined. 22:09:08 -!- lizzie has joined. 22:20:05 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:23:34 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:54:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:58:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:12:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:22:41 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:41:39 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:43:26 random esolang / abstract rewriting system idea: 23:43:43 a string-rewriting machine that outputs sequential "statements" or "questions" loosely directed at zero or more Oracle Machines. Oracle machines can either respond or not to the output. 23:44:02 If an OM reponds, that output is repeated as as input to another OM via a "copy-and-paste" mechanism. At some point in the execution cycle, the machine can rewrite all of its previous output with an ε-production, resulting in a context-free self-interaction of OMs, or potentially the empty string. 23:44:25 Thinking it could be called Talk or Talkative, with an alpha-privative prepended to reference the ε-production. 23:49:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:52:32 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).