< 1558828934 737570 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :pushpoppeekbop < 1558832883 198900 :sprock1em!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1558832958 986315 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1558834528 473188 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric > 1558834643 993190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62618&oldid=62611 5* 03A 5* (+725) 10Paste the discussion here due to "request". > 1558834715 108692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62619&oldid=62618 5* 03A 5* (-222) 10Less wordier discussions < 1558834767 649476 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1558834837 481918 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62620&oldid=62615 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10 > 1558835126 224410 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62621&oldid=62620 5* 03A 5* (+59) 10 > 1558835150 391627 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62622&oldid=62621 5* 03A 5* (-78) 10/* Julie Andrews */ > 1558835443 389480 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62623&oldid=62622 5* 03A 5* (+578) 10Add another negative comment < 1558835525 799180 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using MSG_PEEK to find out where the line ends, and then receiving it again this time with MSG_WAITALL, seems to work fine as far as I can tell so far. < 1558835554 442103 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Quit: This page is intentionally left blank. > 1558835671 601970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62624&oldid=62623 5* 03A 5* (+616) 10Break my rule to add positive comments < 1558836214 647173 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric > 1558837289 568759 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62625&oldid=62624 5* 03A 5* (+163) 10 > 1558837332 747481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62626&oldid=62625 5* 03A 5* (-719) 10Make the contest fairer > 1558837339 461124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62627&oldid=62626 5* 03A 5* (-678) 10/* Julie Andrews */ > 1558837360 822599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62628&oldid=62627 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10 > 1558837504 354679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62629&oldid=61480 5* 03A 5* (+153) 10 > 1558837533 118385 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62630&oldid=62629 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* Computational Class */ < 1558837587 872286 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think most programs would buffer and separately take lines from that buffer < 1558837597 667588 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your solution seems basically fine too > 1558837628 481052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62631&oldid=62630 5* 03A 5* (+28) 10/* Java implementation */ > 1558837730 61970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62632&oldid=62631 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Computational Class */ > 1558838341 190790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62633&oldid=62628 5* 03A 5* (+170) 10Add description < 1558838628 282139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: are you famous? < 1558838628 848735 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: mr president, i would remind us all of what we have to deplore and condemn it at every election. the responsibility for not vetoing it. that is why mr pimenta invited me to do but which they feel " will create substantial pressure on social security for migrant workers. seventh: barriers to the internal market was a relatively easy measure to implement the internal market. > 1558838894 36203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62634&oldid=62633 5* 03A 5* (-23) 10 > 1558838957 681577 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62635&oldid=62634 5* 03A 5* (+39) 10 > 1558839110 786289 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62636&oldid=62635 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10 > 1558839132 237739 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62637&oldid=62636 5* 03A 5* (-71) 10 > 1558840885 710267 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62638&oldid=62632 5* 03A 5* (+76) 10 > 1558840931 80724 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62639&oldid=62638 5* 03A 5* (+21) 10 > 1558840957 457954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62640&oldid=62639 5* 03A 5* (+20) 10Specify > 1558841006 706495 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62641&oldid=62640 5* 03A 5* (-16) 10No, otherwise it will not compile to P''. > 1558841125 795468 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62642&oldid=62616 5* 03A 5* (+286) 10 > 1558841145 699740 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62643&oldid=62642 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10I made a mess. > 1558842460 927670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eodermdrome14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62644&oldid=59661 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+130) 10/* Implementations */ add Clojure interpreter on github < 1558842511 313605 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1558843371 739772 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62645&oldid=62637 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10 > 1558843422 156856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eodermdrome14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62646&oldid=62644 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+339) 10add "see also" and good blog post link > 1558844685 953364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62647&oldid=62643 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+227) 10 > 1558844975 611359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62648&oldid=62647 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+261) 10 > 1558845083 65376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62649&oldid=62641 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (-47) 10 > 1558845732 817697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62650&oldid=62645 5* 03A 5* (-400) 10 > 1558845844 322678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62651&oldid=62648 5* 03A 5* (+173) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558845898 924441 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62652&oldid=62649 5* 03A 5* (-10) 10Partial undo revision 62649 by [[Special:Contributions/TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]] ([[User talk:TuxCrafting|talk]]) > 1558845935 820676 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62653&oldid=62651 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10 > 1558846074 206187 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62654&oldid=62653 5* 03A 5* (+174) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558846394 237897 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62655&oldid=62654 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+162) 10 > 1558846724 217630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eodermdrome14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62656&oldid=62646 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+143) 10/* Example programs */ Add link to my +-= 'interpreter' / decimal counter, written in Eodermdrome > 1558846986 729803 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62657&oldid=62655 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+317) 10 < 1558847068 944639 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558847090 939592 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1558848173 2017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62658&oldid=62657 5* 03A 5* (+151) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558848326 178953 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62659&oldid=62658 5* 03A 5* (+148) 10I got the algorithm wrong > 1558848366 260121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62660&oldid=62659 5* 03A 5* (+11) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558848411 249592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62661&oldid=62660 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10 > 1558848438 12083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62662&oldid=62661 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558848681 341393 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62663&oldid=62662 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+227) 10 > 1558848935 950950 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62664&oldid=62663 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+244) 10 > 1558849076 970071 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62665&oldid=62570 5* 03A 5* (-35) 10Undo revision 62570 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): bitch cannot interpret the UTM, though. > 1558849116 362789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62666&oldid=62612 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+3) 10grammar fix > 1558849348 502089 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62667&oldid=62652 5* 03A 5* (+96) 10/* Number tricks */ > 1558849376 75209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62668&oldid=62667 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10/* Computational Class */ > 1558849413 132579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62669&oldid=62668 5* 03A 5* (+5) 10/* Number tricks */ > 1558849453 695517 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62670&oldid=62669 5* 03A 5* (+20) 10/* Syntax */ > 1558849486 556213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62671&oldid=62670 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10 > 1558849768 400937 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62672&oldid=62664 5* 03A 5* (+179) 10/* Provided interpreter */ > 1558849844 687646 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62673&oldid=62671 5* 03A 5* (+78) 10Inspired by Keg > 1558850642 95474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62674&oldid=62673 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10/* Examples */ > 1558850828 718372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62675&oldid=62672 5* 03A 5* (+135) 10/* Possibly Turing-complete? */ > 1558850944 156994 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62676&oldid=62674 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10 > 1558851026 269556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62677&oldid=62676 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10/* Number tricks */ > 1558851231 883021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62678&oldid=62677 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10The Java implementation does not count; it does not conform the spec < 1558852183 543375 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`qutoe < 1558852184 826509 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qutoe: not found < 1558852185 228320 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852186 37322 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :91) like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: that's great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... < 1558852195 860643 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852196 595563 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :740) STOP CAPITALIZING It's making me feel weird the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer < 1558852200 708451 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852202 943170 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :539) did you know: gravity was inspired by apples < 1558852206 410126 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852208 601556 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1087) I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD. < 1558852212 754678 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852214 212160 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1076) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness < 1558852217 658371 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852218 444630 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1136) OKAY < 1558852220 596876 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852221 434406 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1279) Why does my computer support only one colormap? because it's meta-racist < 1558852225 588222 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852226 290514 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1301) No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive. < 1558852228 621928 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852229 234475 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :639) pikhq: And of course Rick Perry, saying that there's something wrong with a country where gays can serve in the military but we don't elect a douchebag as president. < 1558852233 615781 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852234 256035 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :312) Felix's home page and Falcon's home page are actually the same page < 1558852665 178721 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558852665 795951 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :829) Bike: Your client colours people? it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life < 1558853062 286761 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558853062 994295 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :87) alise: why internet is like wtf > 1558853638 630853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62679&oldid=62534 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1558853668 622222 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62680&oldid=62679 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1558853779 492919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62681&oldid=62680 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1558854508 93379 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854508 827599 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :556) "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" < 1558854511 450915 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854512 121741 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :758) I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins. < 1558854514 845697 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854515 512770 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :590) Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge < 1558854518 215249 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854518 795066 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :209) ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least. < 1558854538 612260 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854539 226972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1206) Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon) wait, you read IRC raw? It isn't quite raw; it is in colors. > 1558854552 110101 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62682&oldid=62681 5* 03A 5* (+124) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1558854561 454663 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854562 146130 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :707) Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech. < 1558854566 846946 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854567 538388 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :704) I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time < 1558854572 601103 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854573 269197 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :923) but when she saw him fnord and fnord. and then there's the fnord, as well as fnord reading sauce with fish, or fnord, that alice quite fnord for it hadn't spoken before. < 1558854576 800322 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1558854577 394046 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :617) also who it a tome, a small one < 1558854635 166474 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1558854653 533970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62683&oldid=62682 5* 03A 5* (-73) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1558854670 331751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other day someone said "free as in use-after" > 1558854847 878565 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62684&oldid=62683 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1558854960 919954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62685&oldid=62684 5* 03A 5* (-73) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1558854967 521131 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558854973 503795 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1558855100 254975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62686&oldid=62685 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10Deleted an extra character < 1558855992 163622 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00101d3dea34588eb4.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric > 1558856453 993163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62687&oldid=62686 5* 03A 5* (+84) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1558856985 534487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62688&oldid=62687 5* 03A 5* (-42) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1558857322 619955 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62689&oldid=62678 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+862) 10Added a python interpreter > 1558857375 410026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62690&oldid=62689 5* 03A 5* (+25) 10 > 1558857679 489766 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62691&oldid=62690 5* 03A 5* (-8) 10A newline is fine. > 1558858440 908726 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62692&oldid=62675 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+317) 10/* Output Methods */ new section > 1558858519 125784 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62693&oldid=62691 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+198) 10/* Examples */ -> Print "Hi" > 1558859418 352853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62694&oldid=62693 5* 03A 5* (+80) 10/* Syntax */ > 1558859783 221380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62695&oldid=62694 5* 03A 5* (+47) 10Python interpreter counts > 1558859798 202406 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62696&oldid=62665 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+407) 10Added Keg as an implementing language < 1558859807 253849 :oklopol!~kvirc@88-112-37-140.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric > 1558859952 727778 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62697&oldid=62692 5* 03A 5* (+197) 10/* Output Methods */ > 1558859964 361632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62698&oldid=62697 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* Output Methods */ > 1558860346 395675 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62699&oldid=62698 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+1130) 10 < 1558860390 115204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` recipe; starwars 5 < 1558860391 99794 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ 1 c Sugar \ 1/4 c Shredded coconut \ 1/4 ts Cumin seeds \ \ Preheat oven to 350. In a medium bowl, combine milk, the sugar, vanilla and seasoned \ flour and water and then cornstarch. add tomatoes, oregano, and \ nutmeg; serve. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CHINESE MEAT OF 2 OR. SALAD \ Categories: Chinese, Candies, Fat \ Yield: 1 Servings \ \ Unsweetened chocolate canned \ 1 Medium potatoes \ < 1558860396 163293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`starwars 5 > 1558860396 356254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62700&oldid=62699 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+7) 10 < 1558860396 966120 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :R2-D2 \ Admiral Crix Madine \ Lor San Tekka \ Rose Tico \ Jyn Erso < 1558860477 767022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has someone suggested to A to make more substantial edits rather than dozens and dozens of tiny ones? < 1558860527 628593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? level < 1558860528 685753 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :level? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558860531 502803 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm > 1558860539 824130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62701&oldid=62695 5* 03A 5* (+2697) 10/* Display the word "Hi" */ > 1558860640 453539 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62702&oldid=62701 5* 03A 5* (+27) 10/* Hello, world! program */ < 1558860643 762395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they cite this on their user page: 00:21:49 oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive... < 1558860694 486962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1558860708 904173 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That userpage seems pretty trolly. < 1558860726 290856 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558860727 524171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah it reminds me of how hard it was to be 13 years of age. < 1558860757 534178 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all the world against me ;-) < 1558860804 887928 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was that age in the past and I don't believe I did that kind of thing. < 1558860840 460244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I didn't have Internet access at that age. < 1558860851 605957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and how hard it may be to be less than 13 years of age _now_, when all online services ban you from using it just because of your age. imagine living in an age when everything happens on the internet, but not being allowed to use it. you can't even register an email address, or an account practically required to use the operating system of your phone. < 1558860860 878920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I remember is being quite annoyed when people treated me differently for being that age. For example by making excuses for me, or being impressed by unimpressive things. < 1558860870 311435 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also being facetious to some extend. At least I'd like to believe that I am. > 1558860872 325799 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62703&oldid=62696 5* 03A 5* (+453) 10Hey! < 1558860888 251635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :extent? < 1558860893 990434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelling is hard. < 1558860959 975097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we didn't have any of that back when I was 13 years of age. heck, when I was aged 16, the rules that people under age of 18 can't buy tobacco or alcoholic drinks in shops were pretty new and nobody took them seriously yet. I could drink, and I could have smoked, and nobody would find 18 years to be the magical threshold. < 1558860990 748503 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect maybe I should've taken advantage of people being impressed by unimpressive things and being unreasonably helpful. < 1558860994 903923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, even now people under 18 years of age can drink and smoke, they just aren't allowed to buy alcohol or tobacco anywhere, and that's more or less enforced. < 1558861033 837731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world is a cold uncaring place, y'know, you gotta get every advantage you can. < 1558861066 462568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you may be right. otoh there's a lot of value in being taken seriously, as a confidence boost. < 1558861069 810567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you don't realize how cold uncaring it is while you're a child if you're in a good family and reasonable school < 1558861114 662928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that remark was about taking advantage of the generosity of strangers) < 1558861169 167792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably putting too cynical a spin on it. < 1558861200 733587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And heck, it can be fun to teach somebody who's visibly learning and improving. < 1558861209 53771 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1558861240 604030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. > 1558861242 900167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62704&oldid=62703 5* 03A 5* (-453) 10You should call it "bitch", despite the fact that it is insulting... it is the language name. < 1558861395 22758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's funny but I don't see what smoking and drinking have to do with being an adult, except legally. < 1558861396 664862 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, that's why we're all on irc < 1558861416 886090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we come here to either learn something, or teach other people something back to give back all the help we've got on irc < 1558861418 938109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would certainly prefer respect over condescension or pity or whatever. < 1558861443 105442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if we're lucky, we also run into a good community < 1558861446 937908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: . o O ( I also thought that when I was your age. ) < 1558861447 865697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1558861465 561170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At my age I get neither! < 1558861469 780595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- half troll. < 1558861486 38884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you're older than shachaf? < 1558861518 601777 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1558861533 689046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, int-e knows when I was born? < 1558861540 337358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's supposed to be confidential information. < 1558861547 598419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I haven't done a good job of keeping it that way. < 1558861550 241605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, probably only a bound > 1558861552 677224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62705&oldid=62700 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+4) 10what is english < 1558861568 642365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, time is continuous, you can only ever measure it with a bound. < 1558861584 366105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc you can find out how old I am from the channel logs < 1558861604 826605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm maybe I'm not 100% sure. :) < 1558861623 244013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for the millionaire protocol. < 1558861629 650220 :oklopol!~kvirc@88-112-37-140.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1558861690 592398 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd9e:ee2a:2ef8:667f JOIN :#esoteric < 1558861720 2202 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, someone told me a protocol which was significantly simpler than the standard socialist millionaire protocol, and claimed it solved the problem of verifying that two people were thinking of the same number. < 1558861755 185714 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say I was born before 1980 :) that should be good enough for this. < 1558861756 895769 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it work < 1558861829 646596 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do something analogous to DH? < 1558861839 503216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did a thing analogous to DH, yep. < 1558861849 506608 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in diffie-hellman? < 1558861855 38436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1558861869 216708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what it was called. < 1558861874 958114 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :analogous? < 1558861893 931963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`witchcraft < 1558861894 506045 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: witchcraft: not found < 1558861926 281943 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine something like this: Agree on a random modulus modulo m a large (safe) prime p, compute m^H(x) mod p where x is your number and H is a hash function, compare to m^H(y), where y is the other party's number. < 1558861959 687610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeat with different hashes if you are unhappy with accidental matches. < 1558861966 910294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how some of these crazy protocols can work < 1558861984 172553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without the hash, you could afterwards check whether ax = by for given integers a and b) > 1558862020 250772 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62706&oldid=62705 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10Group the operators < 1558862028 952112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: um, how does that exclude that the other party tries with all likely values of x and compares the result you tell? < 1558862037 797470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: p is too big < 1558862048 438462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: so that's infeasible. < 1558862056 882298 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: huh what? < 1558862090 92557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand this protocol < 1558862127 627668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not quite the protocol my friend described. < 1558862130 847720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can remember. < 1558862136 508808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how does it exclude a replay where the other person tries to redo this for multiple different versions of y < 1558862138 478381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh I see what you mean, yes it needs some tweaking for that, hmm. < 1558862168 68280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was assuming that x and y are also large in themselves, which is silly... < 1558862171 84297 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there may be a fundamental obstraction to symmetry in these kinds of protocols < 1558862196 706682 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :often one player gets perfect security and the other player gets n-bit security < 1558862253 888820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it was called SPEKE < 1558862255 655593 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEKE < 1558862396 723373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. That uses more DH. :) < 1558862413 323137 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess what i said is wrong for the Diffie-Hellman based ones < 1558862424 924110 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it applied to the problem of intersecting two bitsets < 1558862430 12304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: thanks < 1558862440 233003 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's an extra step past what's described there where I give you H("A"++K) and you give me H("B"++k) or something. > 1558862456 718328 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62707&oldid=62702 5* 03A 5* (+6) 10/* Java implementation */ < 1558862461 339547 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is unfortunately asymmetric because one of us has to send it first? < 1558862464 656170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll console myself with the fact that I recognized the importance of hashing the numbers :-)) < 1558862493 374307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this protocol is quite simple, and the socialist millionaire protocol seems very complicated. < 1558862508 336800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I remember it, anyway. < 1558862515 403506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's the advantage of the complicated one? < 1558862542 634222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A passive attacker doesn't lear whether x = y." < 1558862545 909142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*learn < 1558862554 837249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(paraphrased from wikipedia) < 1558862555 426268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tweaking" < 1558862588 439665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this happens when you treat cryptographic protocols as a puzzle... you come up with flawed solutions :) < 1558862602 207451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they learn it here? < 1558862607 78710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least in my case. I'm *not* a cryptographer.) < 1558862609 750996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sadly it also comes up when people try to use crypto seriously in production, not as a puzzle < 1558862621 57549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: K is communicated by both parties. < 1558862635 826651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So an eavesdropper can do the comparison. < 1558862650 37616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cryptography is dangerous, you have to pay someone competent to do it, or at least pay them to tell you that your design is wrong < 1558862655 123129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is K communicated? < 1558862673 957961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how else are the parties comparing the two Ks? < 1558862700 360278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I still don't understand how that's supposed to work > 1558862700 532325 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62708&oldid=62706 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+135) 10/* Output Methods */ < 1558862706 32826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I described, by hashing them? < 1558862733 139954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't sending K defeat the whole protocol? < 1558862771 272301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, what you described up there. Hmm. < 1558862803 794808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Eurytion < 1558862804 798769 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eurytion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ > 1558862859 129514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62709&oldid=62707 5* 03A 5* (+172) 10/* Examples */ > 1558862883 52910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62710&oldid=62709 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10Oops < 1558862937 981577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps my hon. and learned friend fungot wants to add something to the campaign statements you told us yesterday, before I leave for the voting chambers? < 1558862938 417327 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i am, however, the globalisation of financial markets. in the case of joseph o'dell, and with us in doing battle for the new citizens of the european parliament and the council on the basis of democracy. < 1558862977 961868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think int-e's real contention is that my behavior is or has been too immature to have been born before 1980. > 1558862980 645372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:JonoCode937414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62711&oldid=61776 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+170) 10Added something I've learnt < 1558862990 506970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is reasonable. < 1558862994 643143 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only champion of democracy, protecting us from the evil forces who threaten it, that's what you always want to paint yourself, don't you, my hon. and learned friend fungot < 1558862996 1709 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mr president, the question of the legitimacy in international trade, especially in the context of the internal market, which will take place, at community level. with this in mind and we should be ready to accept, and why we are now awaiting the commission's proposal for a new millennium round, which contradicted the very principle of preferential agreements that the council will support the latter view. it comes late < 1558863036 897483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, now that is more informative < 1558863061 70959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to encourage international trade at the community level, such as individual people ordering small electronics from the far east through ebay? > 1558863107 315913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62712&oldid=62710 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+41) 10 < 1558863162 793260 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00101d3dea34588eb4.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558863214 498377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with its striped brown pattern, the building of the state archives in Amsterdam looks like it's made of wafers. it's so appetizing, perhaps more so than the gingerbread house of the witch < 1558863241 949170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1558863242 24841 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube < 1558863274 847031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style pa < 1558863274 898185 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) < 1558863281 880226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? I wanted Peano Arithmetic. < 1558863295 274896 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style discworld < 1558863295 321398 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) < 1558863303 875822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hit me < 1558863304 210867 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ' a mixture of fnord and violence. but, well, when i worked for my brother-in-law, fnord. the silicon anti-defamation league had been going on for some time afterwards.' < 1558863362 525131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Shouldn't there be an Illuminatus! trilogy style? < 1558863394 847162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't change it! the europarl elevtion is not over yet < 1558863411 890399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :other people may want to ask questions to the candidates < 1558863414 793526 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means you can get plenty of the real thing. < 1558863988 642453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'll go cast a real vote in a few hours. with good old paper trail, no fancy cryptographical protocols. < 1558864425 933202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there is sort of a cryptographical element < 1558864484 943215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to cast the vote, I use the pen provided, which feels wrong, because I prefer to use a nice fancy pen for important stuff like this, but the vote is supposed to be anonymous, so it's preferable to have my ballot be as unrecognizable and generic as possible < 1558864582 366959 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0058f80a4a3d99ff74.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558864686 439121 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring enough nice fancy pens for everyone < 1558864906 573230 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558864943 606084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'd have had to arrive there six hours before for that, and even then I don't know if it's allowed for me to do that < 1558864947 29549 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe. I'd need an electronic copy of the text though. < 1558865008 261250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc gave me a printed copy of the text < 1558865012 781387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains many electrons < 1558865034 952004 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a printed copy as well. < 1558865078 17698 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0058f80a4a3d99ff74.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558865082 463519 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have all the electrons out of mine if you want. < 1558865085 963683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the positrons. < 1558865099 186193 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0058f80a4a3d99ff74.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558865177 122112 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get mosh set up, this train wifi disconnects TCP connections every time it either stops at a station or starts moving again. < 1558865453 472182 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1558865519 439761 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558866281 834891 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: AFAICS that socialist millionaire's protocol relies solely on discrete logs/computational Diffie-Hellman... in particular the description in the OTR protocol remarks that the quantity h^{\alpha\beta a b} cannot be computed by either party using the information transmitted in the protocol, making it effectively a random element modulo p, so no information about (x-y) beyond equality is... < 1558866287 858747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...revealed. < 1558866407 447992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"solely" < 1558866453 87896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmm, you think otherwise? < 1558866518 761746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean it doesn't rely on a hash? < 1558866527 398317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPEKE has stronger, less well researched, assumptions. < 1558866530 851408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1558866557 89541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like a cryptography hash isn't that strong an assumption? < 1558866606 884700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of DH's x |-> x^a (mod p) has a lot of the relevant properties of a hash function, being a random permutation.) < 1558866618 701502 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err pseudo-random. < 1558866656 93360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh but SPEKE is also murky on the discrete log side... it's not a clearcut instance of DH. < 1558866658 180867 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0058f80a4a3d99ff74.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558866672 147680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, it's just that it's funny to say that a protocol relies "solely" on something as strong as a public key cryptography primitive. < 1558866709 829572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :DH is a stronger assumption than a one-way function < 1558866724 855263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly still weaker than a full public-key crypto, but still < 1558866745 562110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, it's not odd at all. "solely" means that there's nothing else, not that the thing referred to is insignifcant. < 1558866750 529516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me the distinction goes between whether you use only symmetric crypto, and when you need public key crypto too < 1558866777 995619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i what kind of coin is that? < 1558866828 109549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if RSA or DH is a funnier thing to explain as a popular mathematics bling than any symmetric crypto stuff < 1558866841 232386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this, where this is Lamport signatures? < 1558866853 252325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hello darkness, my old friend < 1558866853 819279 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, World < 1558866876 956247 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? s&g < 1558866877 969159 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s&g? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558866878 841085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hi darkness, my old friend < 1558866879 443213 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi darkness, my old friend. Harkness, my old friend. < 1558866906 253355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Playing 08 The Sounds Of Silence.ogg. < 1558866938 149937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hi < 1558866938 273391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that song is from way before 08 hth < 1558866939 285501 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558866946 6462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `hi < 1558866946 936840 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558866951 53883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1558866955 840128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's number 08 on that particular best of album. < 1558866985 449493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1558867064 526856 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're playing The Sounds of Silence. < 1558867068 555090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that song is from 08. < 1558867150 309084 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558867152 940204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to the movie? < 1558867189 706083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not, but I've never noticed that extra 's' before. (Especially since the lyrics mix singular and plural? Or is it this version...) < 1558867282 917486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's more complicated: '"The Sound of Silence", originally "The Sounds of Silence", is a song by the American music duo Simon & Garfunkel.' < 1558867345 113987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote sound < 1558867345 913770 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :263) Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". \ 290) boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer \ 298) [on Sgeo's karaoke] Sgeo: awesome sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 385) No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 432) Well, I'm now ex < 1558867353 122348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, the film is called "The Sound of Music", not "The Sound of Silence" < 1558867378 558812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 quote sound < 1558867379 587760 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/4:ow experimenting with clients It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 605) also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 734) i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins \ 789) this sounds sort of like @ kmc well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science \ 799) 499) What i < 1558867402 323520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why, when I run a program with posix_spawn instead of fork/exec, it wraps somewhat differently in the terminal. < 1558867414 217055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't care quite enough to find out. < 1558867528 961200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( wrap? ) < 1558867564 866197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the formatting is somehow different, when I run ls. < 1558867655 748998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different number of columns. < 1558867759 201007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can use ls -1 to force one column, ls -C to force multiple columns, and the COLUMNS variable will probably tell how many cells wide ls will format the multi-column output < 1558867783 973002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: perhaps a silly question, but what are you passing for envp? < 1558867794 441107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so eg. run (COLUMNS=132 ls -C) if you want to print the output to a 132-column printer < 1558867796 708037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. I just worked it out. < 1558867804 984828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix_spawn is indeed running with an empty environment. < 1558867810 65171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised anything worked. < 1558867828 919181 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, we often feel that way in modern computing < 1558867872 481311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, in my job my current task is to try to get some stupid third-party mess of a software working, and I don't think I'll succeed < 1558867886 629086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I can do is run installers at random and get uninformative error messages < 1558867898 958515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what are you supposed to do? < 1558867913 313528 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1558867913 726893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see some examples that do "char **environ;". < 1558867918 580343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems a bit sketchy. < 1558867924 124297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to be the task: run installers at random and hope it works < 1558867989 135136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting three "connection failed" error message popups at bootup now, with no detail on what connection to what failed < 1558868029 13469 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is using a magic global variable the standard way to do this? < 1558868034 474478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm. `man environ` agrees with that... but doesn't have a "CONFORMING TO" section :-( < 1558868115 26456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(defining _GNU_SOURCE and using would look better) < 1558868150 976341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the archæological museum in Leiden was awesome by the way. it's the archæological museum with the second largest exhibition I've ever seen (this may change when I go to London). it has _three_ egyptian sanctums rebuilt inside the building < 1558868181 627682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the gnu libc info documentation may tell some details < 1558868187 929493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap08.html#tag_08 < 1558868195 138164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't want _GNU_SOURCE! < 1558868196 318719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's posix, by all appearances. < 1558868202 13459 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :deal with it. < 1558868202 716709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe I do. < 1558868219 16970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does setenv actually modify that array? < 1558868221 816957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it must. < 1558868245 472457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll show them by not using libc at all. < 1558868245 763616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Environment-Access.html#index-environ < 1558868268 98546 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll write my own entry point that just gets the environment right from the place ELF or whatever specifies. < 1558868273 792801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "This variable is declared in the header file unistd.h", and also about the third parameter to main < 1558868306 994689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that is not in agreement with the manpage. < 1558868332 147636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"([The environ] variable must be declared in the user program, but is declared in the header file if the _GNU_SOURCE feature test macro is defined.)" < 1558868380 335339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now ls is well-behaved. < 1558868431 513450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll go back to posix_spawnp. < 1558868467 193605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix_swamp? < 1558868507 200798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like the posix_spawn interface is way too complicated, though. < 1558868558 627718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: and experimentally, the manpage is right. < 1558868567 241138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It consists of... 21 functions. < 1558868572 221591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that ridiculous? < 1558868577 924130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you even spawning ls? < 1558868586 422329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just to test the swamp? < 1558868596 377243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'm usually spawning other commands, but I was testing with ls and even that behaved badly. < 1558868624 68453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix_spawn_file_actions_adddup2 <-- no further questions, your honor. < 1558868642 369371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did people start writing all their APIs like api_thing_t *x = api_malloc_my_thing(); api_set_thing_blah(x, 1); api_set_thing_blam(x, 2); ? < 1558868664 357330 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of just using s a struct and maybe a version number or sizeof or something for ABI compatibility? < 1558868678 130871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I understand it... everything that you might want to do between fork and exec has to be supported.) < 1558868691 859333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: since you want a C interface with binary compatibility decades into the future < 1558868705 170807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct with version number... could work, sure < 1558868709 900205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OO is good for you! Embrace it! < 1558868711 769644 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at this nonsense: https://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/group___p_c_m___h_w___params.html < 1558868717 465480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in C, that's what OO looks like. < 1558868726 407520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was writing ALSA code and it's just such a mess. < 1558868760 734587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, three sanctums < 1558868762 740273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to writing functions that accept data as argument? < 1558868767 572012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1558868773 890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :datas as argument < 1558868797 912919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also this way you can write hundreds of lines of code without thinking too much. It's, a huge productivity boost. < 1558868816 448596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: just be happy it's not one of those setter functions that take an argument with variable type, using C ... prototype, like setsockopt or the curl functions < 1558868831 407376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are great ways to get silent type errors < 1558868836 250648 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558868850 455181 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also what's the deal with APIs that malloc things just because their size might change in the future? < 1558868865 249462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: example? < 1558868892 583644 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/ICC/client-to-window-manager/XAllocSizeHints.html < 1558868897 974421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and make sure it doesn't malloc things to get an aligned data storage on old C) < 1558868919 32118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of just telling you the size, they give you a function to malloc it and that's it. < 1558868927 546698 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if there was a rule that APIs aren't allowed to call malloc? < 1558868930 452432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo good rule < 1558868947 401978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1558868986 570721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd end up having to pre-allocate everything yourself, with high buffer overflow potential. < 1558869003 282056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially because programmers are smart) < 1558869066 708763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can still include the malloc API if you want, I guess. < 1558869067 688389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and you'll end up with MS-style functions that take the size of the buffer in two arguments < 1558869082 69114 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Static allocation seems safer to me than malloc/free anyway. < 1558869085 494762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No lifetime issues. < 1558869113 584318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, safe_memcpy(void *src, size_t srclen, void *dest, size_t destlen, size_t numbytes); < 1558869120 782276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing ALSA could have done was put a reasonable number of padding bytes in the struct, and require them to be 0. < 1558869128 969578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would let them do extensibility just fine. < 1558869209 118548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't even need that many because you can put a pointer there in the future if you really need a lot of space. < 1558869250 413424 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet I shouldn't be using libasound anyway because it's LGPL. < 1558869273 706199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not opposed to providing a low-level API that leaves allocation to the user, but I would treat it like that, as a low-level API for special case use. < 1558869299 209242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For most uses, having to think about allocation will just lead to more bugs. < 1558869313 320726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you have to think about allocation anyway even if someone else does it for you. < 1558869339 577018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's bad enough that you will end up having to check for errors all the time, though there are tricks using NULL or static error objects to alleviate that need.) < 1558869345 738010 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pulseaudio's API is even worse, of course. They insist on doing reference counting. < 1558869350 328232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :harfbuzz too. < 1558869374 313006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :glib :-P < 1558869380 489621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :APIs that do reference counting for no reason should just be illegal. < 1558869399 355634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what makes you say that they do it for no reason? < 1558869426 434809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They claim the reason is my convenience. < 1558869436 744728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not a huge fan of reference counting but that's because I'd prefer proper GC.) < 1558869444 194582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what's convenient for me is to clearly know the lifetime of every object. < 1558869468 923270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you're special. < 1558869480 833260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'm that special? < 1558869496 33384 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/clearly/be able to/ < 1558869497 205375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can just have multiple apis, of different level, for the same underlying library. which already happens sometimes, with C and C++ and python apis. < 1558869516 784854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes even with multiple C apis or multiple C++ apis of different levels > 1558869520 412279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62713&oldid=62712 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+1908) 10 < 1558869532 395954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, put whatever nonsense you want on top of the basic API. < 1558869552 489169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the standard attitude today is not to care unless the object holds resources other than memory :P < 1558869581 231507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Aka scarce resources. ;-) ) < 1558869589 472461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*AKA < 1558869595 648996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"memory is cheap, allocations are expensive" < 1558869668 374728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :make inner loops fast. < 1558869677 940714 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1558869722 393983 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's not even that I don't care about these things. They just don't matter 99% of the time. < 1558869737 182717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway here's my fancy program that uses posix_spawnp: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/tym.c < 1558869763 608740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the remaining 1% of the cases I do want the low-level interfaces, I will complain about reference counting... and pretty much agree with all the other things you're saying. < 1558869789 36802 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My claim isn't merely that the reference counting is easier but less efficient. < 1558869801 823892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's less efficient than doing GC properly, yes. < 1558869803 154395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The claim is that it's both less convenient and less efficient. < 1558869861 661903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :GC is just not practical for anything that wants to be even moderately real-time as far as I can tell. < 1558869899 85571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :real-time and fast are often at odds anyway. < 1558869931 125216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCs seem to be neither. < 1558869935 55317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Real-time GC is a thing. And last I looked it was a trade-off between maximal response time and performance.) < 1558869971 912375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, GC trades throughput for latency. < 1558869977 201592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :GC trades memory for speed. You want to do it as infrequently as possible, and you want to do it in a way where you don't pay for the garbage (that's the main attraction of copying GC). < 1558869980 15578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even in the best case the latency requirements are pretty high. > 1558869983 698577 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62714&oldid=62713 5* 03A 5* (-57) 10 < 1558870006 958334 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But often you can do better than sophisticated GC in both latency and throughput, using much less sohisticated code. < 1558870040 601835 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1558870046 825612 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because GCs have to do everything dynamically and you can do it statically.) < 1558870071 919075 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are any real-time GCs even available to me? < 1558870073 127450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reference counting (poor person's GC) comes up in libraries for a reason... you can't predict how things are going to be shared at that level. < 1558870089 186628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The library can't predict it, but I sure can. < 1558870141 159998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://docs.oracle.com/javase/realtime/doc_2.2/release/JavaRTSQuickStart.html <-- really just soft real time, last I checked. But they tried. < 1558870217 528555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the maximum pause time? < 1558870268 922366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main which I think is a newer project, they give a maximum pause time of 10ms which is just ridiculously long. < 1558870394 802317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, hmm, that page seems to be claiming 100µs? I'm suspicious. < 1558870407 741430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1558870473 232901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to recreate a directory structure inside a subdirectory, like (find -type d -exec mkdir -v foo/{} \;) < 1558870477 324872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess why that's a bad idea < 1558870555 569944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've stopped following this a decade ago... back then the status was that a) academic work on real-time GC exists -- basically, if you have an upper bound on the allocation rate in addition to the execution times of your jobs, you can make things work out, given enough memory b) there are real-time Java efforts with somewhat murkier guarantees, making them soft real time. apparently in the... < 1558870561 563565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...meantime they promise hard real time... under suitable conditions (which you have to check as a programmer). < 1558870623 446987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about Erlang, I wonder... < 1558870640 697343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang has per-thread GC with no shared memory. < 1558870652 952947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no long global pauses, I assume. < 1558870678 854807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Haskell the state of the art seems to be to limit allocations *and* the working set size dramatically, and possibly do eager GC (like once per frame for real-time graphics)) < 1558870717 733982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOW, there's no designed-to-be real-time GC for Haskell that I'm aware of. < 1558870885 656634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One good "GC" you can do once-per-frame is to allocate everything in an arena and then clear it at the end of the frame. < 1558870905 449049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wouldn't use Haskell beyond small, best-effort, soft real time tasks.
< 1558870921 969764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is very simple and cheaper than the fanciest GC. < 1558870948 981080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's exactly as cheap as a copying GC when you've lost all the references to everything you've allocated during the frame :-P. < 1558870969 412406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1558870981 529950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... don't you sometimes want to keep data from one frame to another? < 1558870990 206018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have no references to follow. and then you discard the semispace and use the other one. < 1558870992 393886 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A copying GC takes time proportional to your roots or live set or whatever. < 1558871005 55388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs to at least look at all of those. < 1558871015 452094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: a sufficiently fancy GC would know that those roots haven't been touched ;-) < 1558871028 418064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, so you don't allocate those things in the per-frame arena. < 1558871063 984641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is being contrary.
< 1558871087 334943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this isn't even information you can specify to the typical GC because the idea of a GC is that you can be all "idk my bff jill" about it. < 1558871094 928661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I mean, you're assuming that the programmer can outsmart the GC. You're probably right. < 1558871097 677775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has to figure out everything dynamically. < 1558871111 460704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But there's no fundamental reason for this ;-) < 1558871133 543847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fundamental reason is that the GC is dynamic. < 1558871144 870077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I do agree that in many situations, allocating stuff in a pool that you free at once is a useful strategy < 1558871156 109534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your language lets you do things more statically, with regions or whatever, then your GC isn't really a GC anymore. > 1558871198 127887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62715&oldid=62650 5* 03A 5* (+336) 10 < 1558871202 515491 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be. You can do static life-time analysis to improve the GC. I'm sure there's research on that... < 1558871224 248286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I disagree quite strongly with that premise. < 1558871258 349100 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: congratulations, you made the wiki! < 1558871266 367881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty mad about that. < 1558871273 927672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the problem is that it's a bit hard to mix static and gc, because your gc often has to traverse the data you allocated, even such data that you will deallocate precisely at the right moment because of static considerations < 1558871298 693499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My suggestion to the wiki adminstrators: Edit my name out of the wiki; purge my name out of the wiki history; ban A. < 1558871319 564464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are obviously acting in bad faith. < 1558871327 37061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I do think that in most cases, static lifetimes works well, and refcounting works in the rest of the cases > 1558871366 266945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62716&oldid=62715 5* 03A 5* (+406) 10 < 1558871379 805573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the static lifetimes are sometimes hard to prove, so you use refcounting or gc to work around programmer mistakes, even if it's technically slower at runtime < 1558871400 492727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling pretty distressed about being quoted on the wiki like that. < 1558871409 353567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I suspect a ban will happen sooner or later. < 1558871419 10524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you take the runtime speed penalty because it's better than the potential use after free from a bug < 1558871443 288606 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or many A ban. < 1558871446 677937 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maybe < 1558871466 7374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is back? hello < 1558871467 647019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hi A < 1558871468 321450 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi A. HA. < 1558871481 437189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, maybe a static lifetime manager exists that's as good as handwritten code and as easy as never thinking about allocations. But it sounds like even a rough approximation is an open research problem. < 1558871489 532902 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00ed2980cbc5cc0bfa.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558871502 763702 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Approximately all existing GCs rely on doing most everything at runtime. < 1558871540 66222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's python < 1558871639 773825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan or whoever: I would appreciate not being mentioned in the wiki in any way, not even in the history, if that can be arranged. < 1558871641 64473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a random find: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.219.1650 < 1558871787 956663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think the main problem here is this: GC is /good enough/ for so many purposes... except when you have hard memory or time constraints, and then nobody's would be willing to trust any amount of static analysis to get things right; they want to see exactly what happens in the code. So there's no real market for better static analysis in this area. < 1558871810 949040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, by "not research" I meant "an implementation I can use for something", rather than a paper with a sentence like "we formulate an operational semantics". < 1558871826 189688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1558871829 958711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was following my own "there's research" remark. < 1558871842 621680 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, sure. < 1558871852 126239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I suspect GC isn't actually good enough for any interactive program. < 1558871867 285789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice, this command line is almost completed < 1558871880 31299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today consumer screens run at 120Hz or 144Hz refresh rate. < 1558871893 613968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :144Hz is <7ms update time. < 1558871899 584703 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think you're proving wrong in practice, by tons of interactive software written in Java and Javascript. < 1558871920 453916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :60Hz is still mostly standard, 120Hz is for gamers ;-) < 1558871921 673633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, I meant "good software". < 1558871922 627374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my TFT screen runs at 60Hz, but I'm not sure it counts as "today's". < 1558871933 154283 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially since we have this silly UHD trend) < 1558871970 480633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPad Pro runs at 120Hz. < 1558871996 121491 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? resolution < 1558871997 243498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ionders about that 144Hz figure..
< 1558871997 278897 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other. < 1558872008 778873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: good point, I think this wisdom has to be updated < 1558872032 459701 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My laptop is 3840x2160. < 1558872038 524147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are now monitors with larger resolution < 1558872039 142134 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should try finding a HD IPS display whiler there's still time...
< 1558872085 101223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what does "HD IPS" mean? I'm lost in all these marketing abbreviations < 1558872105 845197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HD" is some sort of resolution that they use so we don't know the actual numbers, right? < 1558872115 331757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what resolution? I can't follow all these abbreviations < 1558872116 164533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :HD = 2K = 1920x1080; IPS = in plane switching, which is the TFT technology that gives high angular color invariance. < 1558872144 325697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1558872146 203942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and which my current display doesn't have) < 1558872163 69742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, you can even get a 240Hz laptop. < 1558872166 563458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1000/240 < 1558872168 906599 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4.166666666666667 < 1558872173 13942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?! < 1558872181 840036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why waste all that precious memory bandwidth? < 1558872189 806511 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To match the responsiveness of an Apple II? < 1558872197 561589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://danluu.com/input-lag/ < 1558872232 908452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can humans even distinguish 240 Hz and 120 Hz progressive updates? < 1558872271 111811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to try out the hardware sometime. < 1558872282 814483 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People say 60->120 is a big improvement. < 1558872283 952335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though tbh I'd be more willing to spend that bandwidth on higher refresh rates than on higher resolution > 1558872291 298786 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62717&oldid=62716 5* 03A 5* (+135) 10 < 1558872308 749826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that 8ms improvement should be noticable. < 1558872309 880435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: for 120 Hz versus 60 Hz, sure, that makes sense < 1558872343 568281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're at 1920x1080 at 60 fps, you can quadruple the bandwidth to go to 4K or 240Hz. < 1558872352 685700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not when you run windows software that sometimes makes you wait for seconds before they react < 1558872367 324747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1/120 -- this is how much ealier you may get to see an update when using 120 instead of 60Hz refresh rate < 1558872369 816443 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8.333333333333333e-3 < 1558872394 600975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1000/120 < 1558872397 61372 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8.333333333333334 < 1558872400 710623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1558872416 457979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can add -3 and 3 ;-) < 1558872419 142432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :8ms is a long time. < 1558872437 660181 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but 120 Hz referesh rate can be better than 60 Hz for reasons other than latency too < 1558872446 254978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 240Hz that can give you another 4ms... that really should be barely noticable. < 1558872476 69181 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am actually confusil about why people went with 144Hz rather than 120Hz. < 1558872483 612311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 120Hz is a multiple of 24. < 1558872498 949323 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(24 being a standard movie frame rate) < 1558872515 936300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there are 48Hz movies? That could explain the 144. < 1558872554 211109 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just 24fps with interleaving... < 1558872867 573852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think a lot of this is just the marketing attitude that bigger numbers are better. < 1558873039 45939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'd like is cheap cameras where the sensor has six or seven different color channels, rather than just three. they'd see differences in color that we can't percieve. yes, I do understand that we have almost no software support for such images, and also that it would come at the expense of resolution, but still. < 1558873055 469000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying that all cameras should have that, sure, we can keep the 3 and 1 channel cameras too > 1558873059 663651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62718&oldid=62717 5* 03A 5* (+254) 10 > 1558873111 291483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62719&oldid=62718 5* 03A 5* (+47) 10 < 1558873140 63926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) ) < 1558873143 481017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah. and in a sense that's better when they use words where it's not even clear which one is better, like "full HD" and "QVGA" and "widescreen" and "ultra widescreen" so they can toggle between two options every few years and sell the new option as better than the old option every time < 1558873157 881141 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we went from iodized salt to iodine-less salt and back twice each already < 1558873169 972875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :each time they sold it as an advantage over the previous kind of salt < 1558873188 667167 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now the fancy salt costs 200 forints a kilogram rather than 12 forint per kilogram < 1558873209 66196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: please don't use such a low limit > 1558873228 345727 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62720&oldid=62619 5* 03A 5* (+378) 10Is this the etymology? < 1558873232 225820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I know :P < 1558873242 132079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: or do you mean announcements of the edits on the irc channel? because that could work < 1558873280 561181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's a very flawed idea... rate limits don't model the intent (what matters is the significance of the edits) < 1558873308 678292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so just limit to 5 bad edits per day, and an unlimited number of good edits > 1558873324 183004 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62721&oldid=62719 5* 03A 5* (-301) 10 < 1558873327 445722 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, let me repeat my question from a few days ago < 1558873393 169403 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in linux, for an ip socket, what setsockopt do I use to change whether the evil bit shall be set in outgoing packets for that socket? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html < 1558873403 302100 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1558873487 924451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google IP "evil bit" < 1558873489 42959 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3514.txt < 1558873521 132106 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, 1 April 2003 ... maybe you don't. < 1558873608 981319 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric > 1558874000 413021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jungle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62722 5* 03Madk 5* (+22095) 10Add Jungle esolang < 1558874314 64140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I have to leave now, both for the election and for real-life stuff involving family. see you later. < 1558874316 799438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1558874780 535943 :oklopol!~kvirc@88-112-37-140.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric > 1558875365 316242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62723&oldid=61699 5* 03A 5* (+2527) 10/* VerboseFuck */ > 1558875583 41744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62724&oldid=62708 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+2490) 10 < 1558875861 589010 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1558876576 594246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62725&oldid=62724 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+1478) 10 > 1558876694 919104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62726&oldid=62459 5* 03Madk 5* (+13) 10/* J */ Add Jungle to language list > 1558876837 984938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62727&oldid=62725 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+72) 10 > 1558877005 746459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62728&oldid=62714 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (-369) 10 < 1558878140 233519 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yrdbehzwwfuunupv JOIN :#esoteric < 1558879488 536075 :oklopol!~kvirc@88-112-37-140.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558879747 200175 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00ed2980cbc5cc0bfa.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558880063 475055 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558880087 70990 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558880354 893484 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558880363 232186 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558880412 481934 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PART #esoteric :"http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere." < 1558881279 908265 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1558881486 641631 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62729&oldid=62728 5* 03A 5* (+74) 10 > 1558881495 667458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62730&oldid=62729 5* 03A 5* (-1766) 10/* Buggy Java implementation */ < 1558881682 312795 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558881879 54275 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1558883267 600364 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ignore -channel #esoteric -regex -pattern " .5\\*. .03A. .5\\*. " esowiki <--- I finally found a pattern that works with irssi... have to include the color codes... silly. > 1558884704 420042 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62731&oldid=62730 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (-4) 10optimize examples < 1558885280 935226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful: VPMADD52HUQ — Packed Multiply of Unsigned 52-bit Unsigned Integers and Add High 52-bit Products to 64-bit Accumulators > 1558885306 716644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Madk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62732&oldid=62339 5* 03Madk 5* (+13) 10/* Implemented */ Add Jungle to implemented language list < 1558885324 804302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(s/H/L/;s/High/Low/ exists as well) < 1558885514 954827 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1558885743 392345 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jungle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62733&oldid=62722 5* 03Madk 5* (-50) 10/* Reference implementation */ Fix inaccurate info about ///BEGIN/// and ///END/// > 1558887183 728223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62734&oldid=62491 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+6) 10 > 1558887249 119669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62735&oldid=62734 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-284) 10 < 1558891221 723903 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1558892910 159012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1558893127 552920 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558894203 654465 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00386c5bea42233147.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558894242 758737 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? may < 1558894243 955003 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :may? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558894245 515014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can < 1558894246 564560 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can cans can cans? < 1558894263 861530 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007cb7d498bf515055.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558894332 314328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can scan canned cans.
< 1558894395 647301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :May is an auxiliary verb, a month, and a prime minister. < 1558894465 501374 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was* a prime minister! < 1558894483 508349 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00386c5bea42233147.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558894492 611563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still is, I think, but not for very long < 1558894527 528835 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007cb7d498bf515055.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558894682 825459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | < 1558894687 859372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1558894689 465170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's too long < 1558894744 372396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1558894757 523205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :better, but still slightly too long I think... what's the max length? < 1558894763 955785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :390 < 1558894781 573207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ # 'IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf' < 1558894782 268166 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 335 < 1558894786 579671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work < 1558894793 752392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu TOPIC #esoteric :IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1558894845 7101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we remove the old wisdom pdf? < 1558894873 179517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu TOPIC #esoteric :IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1558894883 227600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom.pdf < 1558894884 286229 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1558894955 722313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd wisdom.pdf//s=wis=classical wis= < 1558894957 482054 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom.pdf//Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1558894968 370974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1558894992 26878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1558896150 538800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? x < 1558896151 577349 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :x? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558896177 395672 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think only the https://esolangs.org/logs/ is needed for the logs and others isn't (although maybe that web page should link to other one in case you want to look at older logs), and if it is still too long by one byte, change it to "http:" instead of "https:" < 1558896234 774062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think fizzie or someone suggested that it's better to have all three in the topic, because there have been times when the esolangs.org logs server was down but one of the others were working < 1558896244 491579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? logs < 1558896247 314403 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logs: see channel topic. < 1558896255 117613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1558896258 575383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? log < 1558896259 667333 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logs: see channel topic. < 1558896329 649461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slashlearn log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1558896331 731407 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'log': #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1558896332 905453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? logs < 1558896334 26109 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1558896347 229823 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :could also say something about logarithme < 1558896356 565979 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? logarithm < 1558896357 600030 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :logarithm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558896372 237378 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, the codu.org server does not have recent logs (although tunes.org does, so perhaps should be kept in case esolangs.org is down). < 1558896456 638326 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd err in favor of advertising the channel logs well, because one of the network-wide policies on freenode is that if a channel has public logs, then those should be advertised < 1558896463 363900 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The wisdom file should still list all of them though) < 1558896487 601880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -ERiw codu wisdom < 1558896490 173898 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1558896492 472443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -ERiw tunes wisdom < 1558896493 739651 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1558896496 94089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1558896498 859018 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the codu.org does not have recent logs. < 1558896499 38567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1558896499 709821 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ shuf: '????-??-??.txt': No such file or directory \ ????-??-??.txt: < 1558896499 933256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`logs < 1558896500 538875 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found < 1558896515 751946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1558896562 816839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think `log tries to look up logfiles from back when there was a copy of them in hackeso's filesystem < 1558898050 199072 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to advertize #esoteric logs in my circles but it did no discernible effect < 1558898054 199648 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1558898127 411504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: So they kept posting my name? What's that about? < 1558898271 301110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558898404 527344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : . o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) ) ← there are rate limiting settings that can be used, but I don't think any do that precisely; also, it'd be a problem if people were creating articles via repeated edits < 1558898432 659351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck but it'd likely do too much harm to stop it (besides, it /is/ an interesting language…) < 1558898673 296875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1558898744 757699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1558898766 681653 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my request (not to be mentioned in the wiki, even in the history) feasible? < 1558898803 35508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to replace history entries with markers showing that something was deleted from them < 1558898806 830838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This person is obviously doing it on purpose, because they're quoting people talking about how annoying they are on the wiki. < 1558898817 663480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do that in cases where people post personal information to the wiki < 1558898829 276523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when someone's just copying public information to the wiki, there's no obvious privacy issue < 1558898840 924956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, if someone is intentionally doing it to annoy someone else that'd be a reason to remove it of its own accord < 1558898846 172909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only a strong preference. < 1558898855 707375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this person is clearly acting in bad faith here. < 1558898884 96679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think A thinks that the wiki works like a nomic, i.e. any rule that isn't explicitly stated doesn't exist < 1558898902 718628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care how they think. < 1558898944 584888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case I think A's userpage counts as an attack page, because I can't really see a legitimate reason for the way it's being used atm < 1558898984 792721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually doing a revision delete on it is going to be painful, though, because of the way he edits it, with repeated small changes < 1558899021 726727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not doing it because of that reason is rewarding bad behavior. < 1558899078 170970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to find the last good revision to revert to now < 1558899078 508766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If repeated small changes are a problem then something should be done about it because they're going to keep doing it. < 1558899128 973580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not normally a problem, they just make revision deletes slower < 1558899137 804376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the whole thing had been done in one change it'd have been gone by now < 1558899152 86810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to do the delete at the moment, it just takes a while to do it correctly in this case < 1558899182 162522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Thanks. < 1558899199 37198 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1558899212 182946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62736&oldid=62721 5* 03Ais523 5* (-3812) 10set top revision for revision delete; this is the most recent version of this page that isn't disruptive / an attack on other people < 1558899274 733440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: could you check the history to make sure that there's nothing in the history metadata that you object to? (i.e. not the content of the page, just things like the edit summary, i.e. things directly visible on the "history" page) < 1558899364 722673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems fine. > 1558899377 764571 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 revision10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10Ais523 changed visibility of 34 revisions on page [[02User:A10]]: content hidden: attack page / intentional disruption / intentionally antagonizing other people; also off-topic < 1558899378 353530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My direct objection was only to the last few edits, that mention me by name. < 1558899444 991972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's been attacking people (both me and others) for a while < 1558899445 86413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558899457 256029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558899464 451571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should have looked at the history earlier, the most recent revision was toned down a little but some of the earlier ones were obviously unacceptable, it showed intent to antagonise people < 1558899470 289103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (even the most recent revision was pretty bad though) < 1558899536 477476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1558899564 479729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoting someone because you intend to annoy them is one of the worst reasons to quote… < 1558899580 102671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think the revision delete worked (although I can't easily check because I'm an admin and can see the deleted text regardless) < 1558899613 672768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much easier than it used to be, the old method was both confusing to anyone watching and easy to screw up, also it was harder to audit < 1558899637 215786 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, esowiki drama? < 1558899639 591903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the newer version lets us mark the history as having been deleted, which is much better for transparency, also the process is a little easier < 1558899655 322592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: this happens every now and then < 1558899665 235773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when you deleted revisions by deleting the entire page and then only undeleting certain revisions < 1558899669 725083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's the old method < 1558899690 932703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still works but it's easy to screw up and if the page ever gets deleted a second time, all the revisions get mixed up with each other < 1558899705 522733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new method was added a while back because the old method kind-of sucked :-) < 1558899792 115284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along. < 1558899862 94983 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by 'a while back' you mean over ten years ago, right < 1558899875 695334 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember fucking around with revisiondelete when i was a bureaucrat on rationalwiki lol < 1558899906 125254 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61108698_10100593041263622_7774938434182840320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_eui2=AeGvh5fMnqlQ5N0kDXYiXyOUPLFa4QyuR-JWDj2l8sT6urnUDguFAQFLgUKB4mbDweYPObW8r3uqRlhR1yyKhjc928FnroVdeQTQl_wnvoNGzA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=2840eb864facd95f2d14a142d5989774&oe=5D5FE019 < 1558899915 672408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's more recent on Esolang because it was a long time before we upgraded and gained the feature < 1558899920 544571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was added to MediaWiki ages ago, though, yes < 1558899922 400083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat < 1558899937 545545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do all y'all like cats? < 1558899970 843191 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who don't like cats are deeply suspicious < 1558899990 760838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along. ← do you really think A's a sockpuppet of an established #esoteric user? it's technically possible to check, and it would be a major problem if true, but I think it's unlikely on behavioural grounds < 1558899996 343445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1558900016 478922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think that, it was a joke. < 1558900027 684034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :AlsoI don't know how you'd check whether it actually is me. < 1558900051 79663 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel it was unsporting to delete the drama before giving me a chance to rubberneck :p < 1558900084 796363 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The drama was just a page full of verbatim quotes from IRC of people talking about how annoying A's editing behavior is. < 1558900084 897584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could make it very hard to check by consistently using different VPNs, browsers, etc. for different personas < 1558900089 798664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most people who try that screw up at one point < 1558900094 828807 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1558900110 396280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I tried to get some revisions deleted from hu.wikipedia and wikidata earlier this year. It was about the birthdate of a famous actor who asked to get that removed from the article about her. That actor asked wikipedia to delete it, but < 1558900125 393013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't have a wiki account, and I don't think my IP address is even visible to anyone here. < 1558900128 949214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, Wikipedia birthday wars are ridiculous < 1558900141 17796 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldn't be surprised but i am < 1558900149 778884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could trick me by posting an interesting link in the channel or /msg and hoping that I cilck on it. < 1558900166 916376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was initially refused, because the birthday was mentioned in some cvs online that were apparently published with her agreement. She got two of those deleted, so the birthday was available only from wikipedia and some archive.org pages. < 1558900193 39807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've done that before now, although not to you < 1558900207 432761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not in this channel < 1558900225 395746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some stupid long policy debate where some people tried to defend the idiotic policy that we can list the birthday because it can still be sourced from archive.org. That's obvious nonsense, because then any webpage could refuse to delete the birthday _first_ because it's still on other public webpages. < 1558900226 778669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to catch someone who was being disruptive in ##nomic < 1558900236 404697 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely remember reading about tactics like that being used on eve online to catch moles < 1558900263 839100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eventually after some edit war, the birthday was removed from the article (the month stayed). But it still remained in revision history on hu.wikipedia and wikidata. So I tried to get it deleted. < 1558900353 896262 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's complicated, because by policy hiding revisions would be the job of oversighters (a privilaged user group), but hu.wikipedia doesn't have any of them, so the fallback is to ask wikimedia stewards. < 1558900380 507350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two levels of hiding < 1558900383 394618 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked wikimedia stewards, they said it's not their job, ask wikimedia legal. I asked wikimedia legal, they told me that they'll delete if the actor asks them directly. At that point I gave that up. < 1558900391 46936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this would warrant oversight, revision delete is surely enough for something like this? < 1558900440 578728 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he means revisiondelete was lumped into the oversighters in their permissions structure? < 1558900447 744327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only difference is that an oversighting can't be undone by a normal admin, so it's secure against more people < 1558900467 640425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy suggests that this should be oversighted, but the details of the policy are not clear to me: < 1558900481 845855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that global policy mentions deleting private data from userpages, not from articles < 1558900545 138557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is also a legal issue, because the laws require that we scrub the personal data if the relevant person asks, and https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use says that we have to follow the laws < 1558900554 607519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why the legal dept is relevant < 1558900568 47978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, was wondering if laws applied to this < 1558900573 580313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they certainly do < 1558900580 475505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is in europe < 1558900582 143651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess exact birthdays do count as private personal information < 1558900635 483675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can send a link about the discussion in private if you want, but I don't want to have that in the channel logs < 1558900652 521663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't want it < 1558900674 260854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also turned out that hu.wikipedia has a local policy saying that we shouldn't list the birthdate if it's not publicly known < 1558900676 118995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen enough birthday wars already < 1558900677 264519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I found this rather late < 1558900752 254927 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course OTRS was involved too, because they're the ones who got the request from the actor, with a claim that she's really that actor < 1558900814 357330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas. ← there are spamming frameworks that use humans to break captchas, I know this because I've seen the same spam framework hit multiple wikis I admin where user signup worked in totally different ways < 1558900843 739043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole "introduce yourself" thing was set up because the spam frameworks think "oh, I created an account, I can take over myself rather than using up the human captcha-breaker's time" < 1558900849 3002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, forwarding attacks for captchas < 1558900861 493828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what? I just discovered Unicode has two code points with the same name. < 1558900868 597927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always thought code point names were unique. < 1558900876 72307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: at least one I don't think it was a forwarding attack, because the account creation process was to create an account on a different (related) site < 1558900877 398752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: which ones? it's not "BELL" is it? < 1558900881 474567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's BELL. < 1558900884 208270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how you can do that with a forwarding attack < 1558900910 268892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, the forwarding is for the generic captchas < 1558900917 612151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe BELL is just labeled "" and the name BELL is an alias? < 1558900946 757305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think the name of the control character isn't BELL, but I don't know what it is < 1558900948 895770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is the same spammer framework that attacked esowiki < 1558900965 630436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO the name of the control character is BEL with one L, but I think Unicode disagrees < 1558900983 168134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the name of the control character something like ALERT ? < 1558901010 943976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B0007 says "Name not known" < 1558901018 527820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no, it says "(name not known)" < 1558901027 23420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it doesn't have a name then? < 1558901044 417208 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think my script extracting data from the official Unicode file took some shortcuts. < 1558901048 697029 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1558901054 159066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: They also call U+0 "NULL"! < 1558901100 393794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, now how are we going to teach people the difference between "\0" and "" and Segmentation fault (core dumped) < 1558901101 315881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, for the full thing you have to use libicu or something, which also dynamically generates the data for the regular korean characters, because there's so many that they didn't want to list it in the source table < 1558901134 575981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My table is also missing a bunch of CJK code points, I'm pretty sure. < 1558901169 573424 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Components_for_Unicode says it's "an open-source project of mature C/C++ and Java libraries for Unicode support" < 1558901176 677985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: common ones or rare ones? < 1558901194 896427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember but I believe some common ones are missing. < 1558901198 345381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that supposed to mean? Is it C or C++? < 1558901210 599029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to have a policy of not using C++ libraries. < 1558901212 715577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're talking about what languages it binds to < 1558901218 683470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is probably written in the common subset of C and C++, though < 1558901223 38206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that description < 1558901223 512364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, and I like it because when I reported a doc feature request, they actually replied to the ticket and fixed it. < 1558901234 581139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's normally a ridiculous language choice but it can make sense for libraries < 1558901239 367361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i the common subset of C, C++, and Java < 1558901240 700113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :developers who fix things I report always makes me much more confident about the quality of a library < 1558901290 24951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it has a complete interface for C++, a partial interface for C (some functionality isn't available from the C API, but the most important ones are), and something something Java, I don't follow that < 1558901292 564856 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Apparently it's written in C++ but exposes a C API. < 1558901339 910120 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :harfbuzz is also written in C++, among other reasons not to use it. < 1558901365 788892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately there's a big reason to use it, which is that it's the only cross-platform library that exists that does the thing it does. < 1558901381 281552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the thing it does is poorly documented so it's quite hard to reimplement. < 1558901492 754981 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yrdbehzwwfuunupv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1558901534 866281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's also true of ICU? < 1558901549 97879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Golly, handling text correctly is so hard. < 1558901561 753555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: most of the times, you don't need the parts of ICU that you can't get easier from smaller libraries < 1558901569 153444 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some unicode-related stuff, you do < 1558901578 643836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other libraries handling some of that too, I believe < 1558901599 555702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because eg. pango somehow knows how to break text into lines at work boundaries, and it doesn't depend on ICU < 1558901750 168420 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck [...] <-- I think the train has moved on to [[Volatile]]. < 1558901798 778529 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I’m slow at puns, but do they call the DEL character DELL also?) < 1558901905 727645 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-146-151-103.range86-146.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1558901946 867602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: DEL is a weird character, its original purpose was so that you could delete characters from punched tape by punching out all the remaining holes in that column < 1558901953 435532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the convention being that programs would ignore DEL in their input) < 1558901973 118111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, NUL was a no-op so that you could pre-place blocks of NULs in your tape and later punch on them to insert characters < 1558901989 425975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then DEL started to be used as an actual character, e.g. as a representation of the Delete key on the keyboard < 1558902007 744800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though its original purpose means that it has no actual meaning as a terminal control code, and it should logically be treated as a NOP < 1558902030 382521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, they ignore both NUL (all bits clear) and DEL (all bits set), the latter useful to fix errors (can be done even through a teletype with tape puncher by backspacing and then punching a DEL), the former to leave empty space at the edge of paper tapes so they can be spliced more easily < 1558902031 657000 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn’t know about Delete representation :o < 1558902041 678836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, most terminals ignore it, which is probably the correct option < 1558902048 491274 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that DEL exists is a main advantage of 7-bit paper tape over 5-bit one < 1558902056 9689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :5-bit paper tape only has NUL < 1558902072 630031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what coding does 5-bit tape use? the main 5-bit code is Baudot but I think it needs 00 for something else < 1558902074 220142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to be clear, a bit set means the hole is punched open, a bit cleared means the paper is intact) < 1558902084 641668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: baudot, yes < 1558902089 813893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was used for telex for a long time < 1558902106 665593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think it needs code 0 for something else < 1558902115 11684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses code 0 for NUL < 1558902139 257831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it doesn't use 0 for something else, I just checked < 1558902151 546159 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558902170 150485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some versions do < 1558902173 502900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : C<00> encodes NUL, < 1558902175 134868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are tons of variants of baudot < 1558902179 246894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some use it as a space < 1558902186 353471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :space is 04 < 1558902200 482195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most don't, exactly so that you can leave empty space at the edge of paper tape < 1558902205 629523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry about the leading zeroes, I tend to write Baudot in base 6 out of habit) < 1558902249 257868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :telex machines can transmit and receive much faster than a single operator can type on the keyboard, so for stations that send lots of messages, people punch paper tapes on separate keyboards, and just feed it to the fast tape reader of the telex machine < 1558902250 659110 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm also it seems a pun about DEL was more of a punch < 1558902290 228081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a machine with keyboard and paper punch but without the modem is a significantly cheaper than the full telex machine < 1558902302 387833 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: (groan) < 1558902331 452421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: base SIX? < 1558902333 312486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1558902370 214286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 8 I could understand < 1558902373 325902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 has twelve commands, but only eight of them have names, and only six of them are easy to put in a literal < 1558902395 937919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses Baudot as its main encoding for "string constants" but it's a variant that only uses the digits 0-5 because 6 and 7 and the four unnamed commands are a pain to use < 1558902407 974454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so most of the actual Baudot writing I do nowadays is done in base 6 < 1558902480 982709 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (groan) => hehe thanks I knew it would be a quality content < 1558902541 818878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, I should say: 6, 7, and the four unnamed commands aren't bad to use, it's just mixing them with 0-5 that's awkward < 1558902546 989362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so literals tend to use one set or the other < 1558902566 491436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wonders why they didn't name the unnamed commands as 8, 9, 10, and 11, there's an obvious order for them
< 1558902632 7033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see < 1558902709 950938 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I forgot about the baudot encoding part of that esolang < 1558902736 540250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with my current codegolf.stackexchange account, my two highest-scoring posts are both posts in 7 that just print string literals < 1558902793 731923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both had [tag:restricted-source] restrictions related to digits, which was part of the insipiration for using 7 in the first place < 1558903099 165868 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558904310 16055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1558904603 620550 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558904630 240011 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558905430 779586 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose an implementation can use numbers 8 9 10 11 for the unnamed commands, which is not exposed to the program. < 1558905452 148308 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558905467 615884 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558905943 615885 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00508313e54417021f.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558906949 158419 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider placing N points on a sphere such that the sum of all pairwise (Euclidean) distances between them is maximal; for N = 7 numerical optimization gives a somewhat strange arrangement: two opposite points and a “wobbly pentagon” orthogonal to that diameter < 1558907028 827327 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also either it’s a flaw of Mathematica 8 or the solution for N = 20 is not an icosahedron (two quadruplets of points are close to being squares) < 1558907085 564663 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it’s obvious in retrospect but I was surprised N = 8 gives no cube, but a square antiprism < 1558907151 187530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you'll have to ask chemistry people about that problem for small N < 1558907157 844887 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these results may be suboptimal, I’ve used standard NMaximize function for that < 1558907184 105533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perhaps not quite equivalent to the natural problem in chemistry, but similar enough < 1558907284 243230 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah, I heard about it, there should be an equivalent “a potential field and some charges” formulation < 1558907327 117998 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I’ve seen a link today regarding IIRC N = 5 < 1558907352 212193 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an article which I didn’t read, but they say it’s nontrivial < 1558907422 378491 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a proof of optimality of the triangle bipyramid arrangement < 1558907476 321418 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: https://arxiv.org/abs/0906.0937 < 1558907520 430955 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can find the JSON of a c2 wiki page by appending the page name to http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/pages/ in case you want to write your own parser for it and do not want to use theirs. < 1558907532 26090 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :( chemical N = 5 also: https://arxiv.org/abs/1001.3702 ) < 1558908775 373125 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00508313e54417021f.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1558908893 86425 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558909090 549376 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558910261 217007 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd9e:ee2a:2ef8:667f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1558910292 38501 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62737&oldid=62731 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+49) 10/* Python Interpreter */ Added ability to output as characters < 1558911291 130895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1558912066 232993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1558912166 190207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1558912371 62402 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558912653 48161 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1558913536 776015 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62738&oldid=62735 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+30) 10/* In-depth */ > 1558913589 587747 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62739&oldid=62738 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+3) 10/* In-depth */ > 1558913651 532678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62740&oldid=62739 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+3) 10 > 1558913813 908807 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62741&oldid=62740 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+13) 10/* In-depth */ > 1558913964 3419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62742&oldid=62741 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+0) 10/* Countdown */ > 1558913982 87573 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62743&oldid=62742 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+17) 10/* Counting up */ < 1558914646 542950 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer