00:04:18 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61896&oldid=61887 * Oerjan * (+5) wikify a little bit
00:05:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61897&oldid=61895 * Salpynx * (+589) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Int-e completed the challenge, thank you, and well done!
00:09:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61898&oldid=39447 * Odog8 * (+64) /* Testing... 1221121? */ new section
00:09:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61899&oldid=61898 * Odog8 * (-64) /* Testing... 1221121? */
00:16:23 <oerjan> fizzie: as i give up trying to follow today's development on Talk:Bitch, i'd like to officially complain that mediawiki's default diff sucks supernova-sized balls hth
00:17:14 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:17:29 <shachaf> `swrjan s/Noah/mediawiki's default diff/
00:17:31 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:18:08 <oerjan> i think that ruins the pun hth
00:18:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Is there a better diff?
00:18:28 <fizzie> I think I've heard of WikEdDiff.
00:18:56 <oerjan> that's what i use on wikipedia (although it has problems which huge changes).
00:19:03 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:19:04 <oerjan> (in my browser at least.
00:21:14 <HackEso> *:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the
00:21:30 <shachaf> `learn owrjan is oerjan's wise twin.
00:21:32 <HackEso> Learned 'owrjan': owrjan is oerjan's wise twin.
00:21:41 <HackEso> 2/3:other side of the international date line. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ owrjan:owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. \ pico:pico is the useless twin of nano. \ sewerjan:sewerjan is oerjan's extremely poor twin. \ t
00:21:49 <int-e> oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive... https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61860 and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61861 stood out to me (the latter reads: *MWHAHAHA* delete the attempts of proving TC)
00:22:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61900&oldid=61897 * Salpynx * (+1814) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ response to Helen, with my attempt and using cell load structure
00:22:28 <HackEso> 3/3:int-e:twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense. \ typoerjan:typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin. \ אrjan:אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
00:22:35 <int-e> What I don't know, though, is whether A and Helen are communicating by other channel.
00:23:09 <shachaf> Who needs another channel when you can edit the wiki for every message?
00:23:14 <int-e> . o O ( prime twins and secondary twins )
00:23:30 <int-e> shachaf: well if you erase other people's contributions...
00:23:42 <shachaf> Is this a bug in the line breaking code, by the way?
00:23:52 <shachaf> Line 2 ended in t and line 3 started with i
00:23:55 <HackEso> twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense.
00:24:28 <shachaf> Aha, the line was cut off.
00:24:36 <shachaf> Did a hostname change or something?
00:24:47 <HackEso> cat: bin/spout: No such file or directory
00:24:53 <HackEso> cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}"
00:24:59 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 460 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p<s): \ lw = N-mw-2-len(`i`) \ print data[p:p+lw] \ i+=1 \ p+=lw
00:25:39 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 01234566789; done
00:25:40 <HackEso> 1/3:01234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123
00:25:43 <HackEso> 2/3:56678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667
00:26:09 <shachaf> `sled bin/distort//s/460/459/
00:26:11 <HackEso> bin/distort//#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 459 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p<s): \ lw = N-mw-2-len(`i`) \ print data[p:p+lw] \ i+=1 \ p+=lw
00:26:17 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:26:18 <HackEso> 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234
00:26:21 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:27:21 <HackEso> 11817:2019-05-10 <shachäf> sled bin/distort//s/460/459/ \ 11510:2018-04-14 <fizzïe> sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/ \ 10972:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//8s,int,str, \ 10971:2017-05-29 <oerjän> revert \ 10970:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//s,int,str, \ 10969:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//2s:, math::;8cmw = len(int(2*s/N))-1 \ 10968:2017-05-29 <oerjän> fetch bin/distort https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/bin/distort
00:29:15 <HackEso> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
00:29:25 <shachaf> edit sure was a great shavention
00:31:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/distort
00:32:38 <fizzie> HackEso's own threshold is supposed to be strict enough to not change unpredictably.
00:32:50 <int-e> Yeah but I know what changed.
00:33:14 <int-e> It used to identify as user "h": :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi now it's :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi
00:33:41 <int-e> And that happens to push it one character over the 512 byte limit for PRIVMSG.
00:34:05 <fizzie> I thought it had a larger margin of safety than that.
00:34:11 <fizzie> But maybe it's been optomilized.
00:34:40 <int-e> April 14th, 2018: <fizzie> sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/
00:35:41 <fizzie> I think I'll try to shorten it back down again though.
00:35:57 <shachaf> I think it's good for N to match HackEso's bound exactly.
00:36:33 <shachaf> Hmm, except it also adds a header.
00:36:43 <int-e> I'm not complaining, I find it satisfying to know what changed :)
00:37:11 <fizzie> HackEso's bound is kind of complex, because it's "460 rounded down to the previous full Unicode codepoint if the text decodes as valid UTF-8; otherwise 460".
00:37:52 <int-e> just put 444 there :)
00:38:05 <fizzie> I wonder where the ~h came from.
00:38:15 <fizzie> The stock multibot code always just puts the nick there.
00:38:24 <shachaf> Do you require the entire text to decode as valid UTF-8, or do you just step back up to 3 continuation bytes from the end?
00:38:38 <fizzie> No, the entire text needs to be valid UTF-8 for that rule to trigger.
00:38:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61901&oldid=61900 * Oerjan * (+902) /* Page content deletions */ new section
00:38:53 <shachaf> Right, because some IRC clients use that funny dual encoding.
00:39:01 <int-e> fizzie: hmm did you ever use any irc proxy for hackeso?
00:39:21 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot/src/2bc6f94/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd#lines-64
00:39:21 * int-e forgot the proper term.
00:39:31 <fizzie> Not as far as I recall.
00:39:55 <HackEso> 1/2:erkin//An erkin is a variety of cucumber: the West Indian or burr erkin (Cucumis anguria), which produces a somewhat smaller fruit than the garden cucumber (Cucumis sativus). \ copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president. \ ant//Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways. \ doodad//Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism,
00:39:58 <HackEso> 2/2: if not careful. There be balrogs.
00:40:02 <fizzie> Maybe I just had a patched version of multibot or something.
00:40:32 <int-e> irc bouncer was the term I forgot
00:40:59 <shachaf> Is that like a trampoline?
00:41:01 <int-e> fizzie: thanks. (I googled... resulting in a race condition)
00:41:14 <int-e> shachaf: less dangerous, I think
00:41:41 <shachaf> Race conditions on trampolines sound pretty dangerous.
00:41:55 <int-e> shachaf: it's for people who want to appear constantly online and still use their own graphical irc client from home
00:42:23 <shachaf> I appreciate that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing) has an entry for Befunge.
00:42:29 <fizzie> Or just want the flexibility of switching clients every now and then, without having to change logging formats and all that.
00:42:35 <fizzie> (That's why I use bip.)
00:42:45 <fizzie> (Except the logging format is unconfigurable and kind of sucky.)
00:43:04 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:43:16 -!- HackEso has joined.
00:43:20 <shachaf> if only HackEso used a trampoline
00:43:36 <int-e> shachaf: it bounced right back!
00:44:05 <shachaf> Isn't it great how using nested functions in gcc will make your whole stack executable?
00:44:08 <fizzie> Went back to ~h. With an identd reply, it could be one character shorter.
00:44:33 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:34 <HackEso> 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234
00:44:36 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:44:42 <shachaf> `` for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:43 <HackEso> 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:44:49 <shachaf> `2 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:50 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:45:20 <shachaf> I'd test this in /msg but everything would be different there.
00:45:40 <int-e> just /nick _esoteric ;-)
00:46:59 <int-e> "Ice_Store" is a good one.
00:47:04 <int-e> https://new.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=esoteric&t=500&a=n
00:47:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> Does distort handle that? <-- that's the whole point of the fancy math
00:48:12 <shachaf> oerjan: ok but i didn't actually read the code hth
00:48:16 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/distort
00:51:00 <int-e> . o O ( Is HackEso secretly a drug dealer? It rearranges to: Has Coke )
00:52:48 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty sure you were around when i made it hth
00:53:28 <oerjan> unfortunately the fancy math doesn't work if it has to do unicode acrobatics as well.
00:53:57 <oerjan> (and i don't know how to.)
00:55:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, my question was whether distort does unicode acrobatics.
00:55:31 <shachaf> What does the fancy math do?
00:56:45 -!- salpynx has joined.
00:57:54 <salpynx> int-e: well done on your solution to my challenge on that page, and the other contributions! I'm honestly surprised the solution looks so straightforward in the end, but I imagine it took quite a bit of work to get there, so thanks for taking the time to decipher the interpreter
00:58:52 <salpynx> I was trying to make progress by trying many different smaller programs through the interpreter and seeing what happend, black box style.
01:00:09 <int-e> salpynx: if you look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitch#Addition you'll see that it's based on similar gymnastics
01:00:20 <int-e> (though quite a bit more elaborate)
01:01:24 <int-e> But my main starting point was the interpreter itself, observing that when instructions are chained, the entire state is copied and only the resulting accumulator is used.
01:01:56 <int-e> I guess I still spent a couple of hours getting to the point where that insight was finally useful.
01:03:33 <oerjan> shachaf: it makes sure the lines have the requested total length even though the line number prefix changes
01:03:59 <shachaf> Can you make it handle UTF-8 as well? twh
01:04:45 <salpynx> int-e: after my response to Helen, where I mentioned the addition example, it occurred to me it probably had to be using a technique like that to work at all.. I thought it was working because the user provided at least the second operand, and wanted to take that out of the equation
01:06:54 <oerjan> it's easily googleable hth
01:07:09 <salpynx> I can't get Helen's structure to work, but I suspect there is way. The challenge was an invitation for Helen to show how it worked on a simple example.
01:07:24 <shachaf> https://www.bing.com/search?q=stby
01:07:27 <int-e> oerjan: nah I got it
01:07:27 <oerjan> although i probably said because the very reverend over at schlock mercenary used it at one point.
01:07:32 <shachaf> «Meaning "Sorry to bother you"»
01:07:43 <int-e> oerjan: I started out with "sorry ..." and now I've realized my mistake.
01:08:04 <oerjan> well that _is_ one option, although not the one i was thinking of.
01:08:14 <shachaf> oerjan: it's quite all right, old chap
01:08:24 <salpynx> Anyway, my technique of saying something wrong on the internet and then waiting to be corrected has worked as intended :)
01:08:56 <oerjan> hm was there an xkcd about that
01:09:22 <oerjan> (not the "someone is wrong on the internet" one)
01:09:29 <shachaf> someone made a comic about a thing
01:09:37 <int-e> I still don't know whether that language is TC though. (I'm certaint that it's close enough to make no practical difference.)
01:09:57 <oerjan> i think shachaf is having a sarcasm leak
01:10:43 <oerjan> actually i just remember someone mentioning that technique, it probably wasn't xkcd.
01:10:43 <salpynx> I don't think I was _that_ wrong, I hypothesised a "clever solution" would involve placing bounds, thus invalidating TC, which seems to be the case.
01:10:46 <shachaf> the fact that whatshisname made a comic strip about a thing that is much older than the comic strip is not relevant to anything
01:10:55 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps you're thinking of http://bash.org/?152037
01:11:36 <oerjan> hm i don't think i've seen that before
01:11:55 <shachaf> maybe it was a different one
01:13:31 <oerjan> i don't get the "kindred spirit" thing, did they leave out something
01:13:57 <salpynx> int-e: I will post some of my pre-disqualified solutions to the problem at some point, I implemented a lookup table version based on your ROT13 code, which I knew was possible but didn't figure out until I saw your technique.
01:14:01 <int-e> salpynx: how about ]1^^]1^^[1[1
01:14:24 <shachaf> int-e: What language should I use instead of C?
01:14:58 <int-e> shachaf: you? I imagine you'd enjoy machine code and dip switches.
01:15:12 <shachaf> Hmm, that doesn't sound that great.
01:15:18 <shachaf> To clarify, I want to use it to write software.
01:15:28 <salpynx> int-e: looks close, but seems to map 1 -> 3 ?
01:16:23 <int-e> salpynx: oh I dropped the wrong bit. ^^]1]1^^[1[1
01:17:04 <oerjan> does the storage thing also get copied when chaining, so that only an outermost bit shift has effect on it?
01:17:38 <oerjan> good, i might understand enough to think about stuff now. if i want.
01:17:46 <int-e> that's the whole point of the ^^<ins>: it executes <ins>, but discards the effect on the storage
01:17:49 <salpynx> int-e: I came up with a strange joke version that works by using the user as a stack, but may be using an interpreter input bug: \&6|]1&1/#0\&6|\/
01:18:25 <salpynx> input has to be given twice, seperated by a space, then user must input the number given by the program to get the correct answer
01:18:39 <int-e> and exploits that A^(A^A') = A'
01:18:45 -!- FreeFull has quit.
01:21:25 <salpynx> It made me think that any PDA with input and output could have the IO co-opted as a way to use the user as a second stack. ais523 mentioned that is how Wiki Cyclic Tag works, although the wiki page doesn't go into detail
01:24:05 <int-e> Anyway, maybe more about this tomorrow. Or maybe not, I might have exhausted the low-hanging fruits :)
01:24:18 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Fri May 10 03:24:17 2019
01:24:43 <int-e> later today then :P
01:24:53 <salpynx> int-e: |[3&22]4|[4&7 is a version I came up with recently and independently of your solution, which seems to work to, presumably using the same principle, although I hadn't finished reviewing it
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08:14:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61902&oldid=61901 * A * (+2057)
08:19:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61903&oldid=61902 * A * (-938) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
08:20:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61904&oldid=61892 * A * (-83) /* Impossible */
08:22:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61905&oldid=61903 * A * (+16169) YEAH! Successfully made the page longer
08:26:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61906&oldid=61905 * A * (-871) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
08:27:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61907&oldid=61906 * A * (-328) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
09:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
09:19:42 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Judging from the difference in capitalization, I think most of the lines were copy-pasted, and only the "brings a tear" and "kindred spirit" ones were written by the person speaking.
10:04:39 -!- TheWild has joined.
10:10:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61908&oldid=61907 * A * (+24) Add a trivial (but probably useful) operation
10:19:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61909&oldid=61908 * A * (+395) Add some operations that I find in Assembly language (not implemented, but might be possible in bitch)
10:20:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61910&oldid=61909 * A * (+5) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
10:28:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61911&oldid=61910 * A * (+37) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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11:16:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61912&oldid=61911 * A * (-128) Delete some commands that are definitely not possible or trivial
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11:33:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61913&oldid=61912 * A * (+185) Explain why I removed some content
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11:34:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61914&oldid=61913 * A * (-30) /* Attempts at proving Turing-completeness */
11:40:20 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61915&oldid=61642 * A * (-1692) Blanked the page
11:43:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61916&oldid=61914 * A * (-20) /* Operations */
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11:56:18 <wob_jonas> http://www.omniglot.com/blog/?p=17470 Omniglot blog writes about the obsolete ]cyrillic letter multiocular o
12:01:17 <arseniiv> one of my favorite letters with no use
12:03:53 <arseniiv> I have a bad pun «серафимы многооконные» (many-windowed instead many-eyed) which completely isn’t going out of my head when I remember that letter
12:04:21 <wob_jonas> I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable.
12:05:01 <wob_jonas> Also lack of spaces. Stupid modern designers show their total lack of respect to our typographic traditions.
12:16:04 <arseniiv> <wob_jonas> I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable. => agree
12:17:12 <arseniiv> in Unicode terms, it’s more like a “letter-like form”
12:18:12 <arseniiv> hm and how many alphabets had one time or another included an ampersand in them? I know this about English, but that’s all
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13:04:51 <arseniiv> I have concieved by any mean the weakest logic possible, of those containing implication and MP
13:05:02 <arseniiv> it has a single axiom [schema] A → A
13:06:22 <arseniiv> and it corresponds to the subset of combinatory calculus with terms containing only I and variables. Not saying “typed”, as any such term seems typable
13:08:14 <arseniiv> it’s a nice counterpart to the “trivial logic” which has an axiom A, or which has a single truth value, which in this case is perfectly interchangeable
13:09:18 <arseniiv> if I think right, classical logic is the strongest one weaker than this one
13:09:37 <arseniiv> myname: both are fairly inexpressive, I’d say totally
13:10:17 <arseniiv> they are interesting mainly as bounds, at least for me
13:10:17 <myname> how do you deduct anything with just A -> A
13:12:33 <arseniiv> hm, now I think should there be no axioms at all
13:13:21 <myname> things that are true: true
13:13:35 <myname> things that are known to nor be true:
13:14:54 <arseniiv> (cont.) if we have implication and MP, it should in some way mirror inference, as we want the deduction theorem present, at least I do, then this axiom A → A is unavoidable
13:15:32 <arseniiv> anyway this is the rationale for this logic: it’s as weak as possible
13:15:50 <arseniiv> but it has trivial deductions A ⊦ A
13:18:28 <arseniiv> hm, now I think it’s in a sense incomplete, if we are to say about deduction theorem. It’s needed that axioms S and K be true
13:19:04 <arseniiv> and without that metatheorem, the weakest logic is indeed one without any axioms at all
13:22:19 <arseniiv> though it still is fairly interesting: it corresponds to a subset of the combinator calculus with terms on variables only
13:23:27 <int-e> what exactly is MP though... you may add a linearity constraint if you want to make things less interesting
13:29:05 <arseniiv> MP is an one-sided manifestation of the deduction theorem, that wich we could state as a Hilbertian inference rule
13:29:53 <HackEso> ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ mꙮnqy:mꙮnqy is watching you.
13:29:59 <fizzie> Wasn't there a poem or something?
13:30:14 <arseniiv> int-e: and yeah, I haven’t thought of linearity
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13:39:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61917&oldid=61916 * A * (+249) Ask
13:40:47 <arseniiv> int-e: hm by the way do you know what the deduction theorem would necessitate in a first-order logic? Should it have ∃? should it have even ∀? (well, if no and no, then the situation would be too dire, so I presume, with some other intuitive feelings, ∀ should live)
13:42:11 <arseniiv> at least I’m fairly set on that it could have = and the equality axioms if so needed
13:47:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61918&oldid=61917 * A * (-119) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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14:06:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61919&oldid=61918 * Int-e * (+288) /* Operations */
14:09:14 <int-e> arseniiv: I think it should have both to qualify as "first-order logic", but I don't know what other fragments people may have found interesting enough to study.
14:23:11 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61920&oldid=61904 * Int-e * (+815) /* Common Algorithms */ On ^^
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14:49:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61921&oldid=61919 * A * (+169) /* Operations */
14:50:29 <esowiki> [[*W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61922&oldid=20457 * YamTokTpaFa * (+127) /* External resources */ Help! WTF the usage of [[Template:Wayback]] is?!
14:53:28 <esowiki> [[Excela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61923&oldid=30479 * YamTokTpaFa * (+71) /* External resources */ So wtf the template usage is?
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15:59:35 <Taneb> Is there a term for a language which is not Turing complete itself, but if you pipe its input into an interpreter it is?
16:00:16 <int-e> so basically it just has to produce any fixed output that you desire?
16:00:45 <Taneb> int-e: I mean, an interpreter for the same language
16:01:09 <Taneb> So, I write a program in Language X, which outputs another Language X program, and so on
16:01:36 <Taneb> (also, is such a language possible?)
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16:02:59 <Cale> Such a language is called "the language of text documents"
16:03:08 <int-e> Taneb: bitch may be such a language if used in a streaming fashion (you can unroll an outer working loop in the first program, effectively giving you nesting level 2 for loops. The second program can still terminate by issuing a . instruction.)
16:03:12 <Cale> any text document simply outputs itself
16:03:44 <Taneb> Cale: not in such a way that the system so formed is Turing complete when the original language isn't
16:03:46 <int-e> Taneb: so it's a matter of a precise definition. (Also bitch may still turn out to be TC by itself. It's just unclear how.)
16:04:20 <Cale> Well, and then you can just pick your favourite Turing complete language interpreter as the second bit
16:04:24 <int-e> Taneb: Would you allow that? Using a finite program to produce an infinite (but very regular...) one?
16:04:38 <Taneb> Cale: no, it's the same interpreter
16:04:49 <int-e> Yeah the twist is that the two languages are supposed to be the same.
16:05:09 <Cale> In that case...
16:05:12 <Taneb> int-e: but also the output of the second program can be fed into a third interpreter instance
16:05:31 <int-e> Taneb: how do you deal with inputs though?
16:05:46 <Cale> I choose the language to be the lambda calculus, and I choose the interpreter to be something which performs a single beta reduction step
16:06:33 <Taneb> int-e: I haven't thought much about it
16:07:19 <Cale> Doing one beta reduction isn't Turing complete, but finding a fixed point of that is.
16:07:44 <Taneb> Cale: OK, that makes sense
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16:16:49 <int-e> . o O ( A asked a question about how my decrement implementation works. I don't want to tackle that, I'm afraid it would be like jumping into an abyss... endless follow-up questions about increasingly trivial things. I have yet to see any sign of knowledge in A... )
16:17:20 <int-e> I wonder how unfair I'm being in that assessment.
16:18:08 <int-e> arseniiv: be my guest.
16:20:20 <arseniiv> I think I may be somewhat biased about A but I embrace it with all my heart. Oh
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16:40:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61924&oldid=61920 * Int-e * (-6) /* The ^^ Trick */ formatting
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16:59:54 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61925&oldid=61924 * Int-e * (+140) /* Bitwise Instructions */ clarify what happens to the storage when instructions are chained
17:02:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61926&oldid=61925 * Int-e * (-21) /* Bitwise Instructions */ formatting
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17:15:35 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61927&oldid=61926 * Int-e * (+19) more formatting plus minor clarifications
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17:20:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61928&oldid=61921 * Int-e * (+167) /* Operations */ try to help to self-help.
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17:28:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61929&oldid=61928 * Int-e * (+329) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ note on alternative bit copying code
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19:26:41 <esowiki> [[Stackylogic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61930 * Prof Apex * (+1197) Created page with "Stackylogic is a stack-based programming language where every line is a stack of bits. It was created by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/26997/calvins-hobbies Calvin..."
19:33:19 <int-e> Hmm, Kaspall (a webcomic) is tough to get into: After 200 pages (4 years!) things are slowly making sense...
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19:44:03 <esowiki> [[*W]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61931&oldid=61922 * Salpynx * (-87) /* External resources */ wayback machine is a web archiver, see [[Template:deadlink]] for slightly more info
19:46:48 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; grep -REi cromulent .
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20:03:08 <zzo38> Today is hot in here
20:03:13 <lambdabot> CYVR 101900Z 24007KT 30SM FEW040 18/13 A2994 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP139 DENSITY ALT 400FT
20:07:32 <lambdabot> KOAK 101953Z 29010KT 10SM FEW015 FEW200 19/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP097 T01890106
20:08:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61932&oldid=61929 * Salpynx * (+48) Indenting responses and signing helps make the page easier to follow. Fixed some
20:09:29 <b_jonas> and the weather is predicted to get even warmer
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20:48:35 <zzo38> I thought of storing a Huffman tree, has been mentioned on here before. It is mentioned store how many codes of each length. Yes, you can do, with first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned.
20:49:55 <zzo38> You can keep track of how many codes are available, as well as how many bits are needed for the highest possible number. Subtract the number of bits used from the maximum, and then store that number, skipping any bits of that number which are implied (for example, if it can be "00" or "01" or "10" (0 to 2) then you can abbreviate "10" as just "1").
20:50:18 <zzo38> You can also add one more bit at the beginning to indicate whether the largest number of bits per code is odd or even.
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20:55:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, ais523 asked about Huffman trees
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21:01:12 <b_jonas> I'm traveling to the Netherlands for vacation starting tomorrow, so I won't be reachable through IRC or email until 2019-05-21.
21:02:19 <b_jonas> Also I'm reading the airplane baggage regulations. So scissors have to go to the carry-on luggage; spare batteries for my camera have to go to the hand luggage.
21:04:18 <b_jonas> And I'm required to cover the terminals of the spare camera battery with insulating tape to reduce the risk of an accidental short circuit.
21:05:01 <kmc> seems reasonable
21:05:14 <kmc> if there's a lithium battery fire they want it in the cabin so it can be contained
21:05:23 <kmc> if there's a fire in the cargo hold and it spreads then they're pretty much fucked
21:08:11 <b_jonas> I'll take some spare insulation tape to be able to keep these regulations on the way back too
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21:21:56 <kmc> normal electrical tape?
21:22:06 <b_jonas> now I'll have to cheat a bit with the hand luggage
21:23:27 <b_jonas> the size limit is 0.55 m max height, but I really want to bring my 40 l backpack, which is about 0.60 high,
21:24:00 <b_jonas> so I have to fold the top down enough on request, and pack it not too full so I can do that without having to remove more items than I can keep on my person
21:24:50 <myname> http://leftoversalad.com/c/015_programmingpeople/
21:47:37 <rain1> zzo38: you can also build a huffman tree adaptively while decoding a stream so that no huffman tree needs t obe serialized
21:52:05 <zzo38> rain1: OK, how do you build that then?
21:53:36 <rain1> start with a standard tree and each time you see a symbol update your counters and improve the tree to match the probabilities
21:55:12 <zzo38> Don't you have to rebuild the tree each time then?
21:55:36 <rain1> as long as compression and decompression uses the same algorithm you can do this
21:55:44 <rain1> it could rebuild the tree after 64 symbols
21:56:11 <rain1> it's good to reset the tree occasionally too, in case one part of the file is biased in a different way than another part
21:56:50 <b_jonas> I don't know if that aligns with whatever esoteric needs ais523 had though
21:59:24 <zzo38> Yes, there may be a different use.
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22:00:31 <zzo38> In the case of Glulx (the way the Huffman tree is stored in Glulx is rather inefficient), the text is not "streaming" and rather you give the address of the beginning of a huffed text.
22:28:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61933&oldid=61927 * Int-e * (+104) /* Implementation */ another implementation
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23:34:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61934 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+12) Created page with "I hate this."
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